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• Mark Joseph Stern (August 22 2013). "Misplaced Pages Beats Major News Organizations, Perfectly Reflects Chelsea Manning's New Gender". Slate. Retrieved August 22, 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Robin Abcarian (August 22 2013). "Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman named Chelsea Manning". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved August 23, 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Justine Sharrock (August 22 2013). "Misplaced Pages Changed Its Entry To Properly Reflect Chelsea Manning's Name". BuzzFeed. Retrieved August 23, 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Alex Hern (August 23 2013). "Behind the Misplaced Pages wars: what happened when Bradley Manning became Chelsea". The New Statesman. Retrieved August 23, 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Andrew O'Hehir (August 24 2013). "What's in a name? Chelsea Manning and Muhammad Ali". Salon. Retrieved August 24, 2013. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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• Oppose, per BLP (which overrides pretty much everything except the fundamental content rules) - David Gerard (talk) 15:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Where does WP:BLP address this issue? CaseyPenk (talk) 15:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• WP:BLP doesn't say we're not allowed to discuss a proposed move. It may, however, inform the consensus that the proposal should be rejected. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, saved too quickly. WP:BLP means we must be immediate, and don't have the luxury of eventualism; you note in your RM that Chelsea Manning is the right place and that it will eventually end up there, but if you already know that then that's where it should be already. MOS:IDENTITY is clear: the subject's claimed identity is not a matter of controversy (third-party controversy is not the consideration there). Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Guidelines interprets MOS:IDENTITY in practice as "The Misplaced Pages Manual of Style's guidelines on identity indicate to refer to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." I think this is all overwhelmingly clear - David Gerard (talk) 15:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

  I also note that the formal RM procedure mandates a 7-day discussion period, making the request doubly weird if you already think the outcome will be to keep it where it is - David Gerard (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

  @David Gerard: You saying this is bordering on grating. You reverted the technical move back to Bradley Manning, which is essentially what this request is, and here you are waving the seven-day period in our faces. As you can see below, very few people think this is a BLP issue; most supporters of the current name cite MOS:IDENTITY. At what point will you acknowledge that your invocation of BLP was off-base, and restore the original title? -- tariqabjotu 16:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

  MOS:IDENTITY flows directly from WP:BLP, and accordingly is, by its very nature, a BLP issue. Bearcat (talk) 03:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  Obviously, it's a BLP issue in that this is a Biography of a Living Person. However, that does not explain how the title Bradley Manning is a violation of the policy. People keep throwing around those letters knowing they're a trump card, but they have continually failed to articulate what part of that policy applies here and is violated by the prior name. If it was as blatant as some, including Josh below, would like it to be (Any editor moving the article to Bradley Manning should be blocked instantly for BLP violation and sexual harrassment), we wouldn't need to have this conversation. So you're going to have to, you know, converse. -- tariqabjotu 04:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  BLP requires that we write our articles with sensitivity to issues of identity, and respecting a person's right to change the name that they're known by is probably the single most basic example of such that it's even possible to come up with. If a woman with a Misplaced Pages article under her married name wanted to go back to being known by her maiden name following her divorce, we wouldn't keep the article at her married name just because most of the old sources about her, written before she even made that announcement, had used the old name instead of the new one. When the Canadian politician Candice Hoeppner did so, for instance, we immediately complied with her wishes and moved the article to Candice Bergen (politician) (and yes, that really was her maiden name, I'm not kidding), even though you could still point to old sources which had used "Hoeppner" because that was the name she was using at the time those sources were written. I'm sure a few people might make a fuss about such a thing in some cases, but I'm also sure it wouldn't generate this volume of commentary — because most people would quickly accept that it was pretty much a no-brainer to respect her wishes. The only way this case can possibly be seen as any different from that one is if you don't accept the basic validity of transgenderism in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 04:54, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• And yet, Debra Lafave, who is divorced and prefers to be known by her maiden name, Debra Beasley, doesn't get that privilege. StAnselm (talk) 05:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  I don't know her under either name, so she's not my concern. But for the record I see no evidence in either the talk page or the edit history that anybody's ever even tried to move the article — but if they did, I'd support the move. Bearcat (talk) 05:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

But we're talking about BLP violations. If not moving the article in accordance with the name change immediately is a BLP violation, you should have just moved the article. Of course, that's not actually a BLP violation. -- tariqabjotu 06:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

If there are BLP issues in her article, then by all means somebody should clean it up — but considering that I have so little interest in her article that I didn't even know she existed until her article was pointed to in this discussion, I'm under no obligation to personally volunteer to be the cleaner. Bearcat (talk) 06:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2) (Can you, perhaps, use the preview feature a bit more? I feel like I'm shooting at a moving target.)

BLP requires that we write our articles with sensitivity to issues of identity, and respecting a person's right to change the name that they're known by is probably the single most basic example of such that it's even possible to come up with.

Please quote a part of the BLP policy that says that. We have a number of examples of people's articles not at their preferred names, living (Lily Allen, Snoop Dogg) or dead (Malcolm X). We have to be judicious about name changes, and that is no different here.

If a woman with a Misplaced Pages article under her married name wanted to go back to being known by her maiden name following her divorce, we wouldn't keep the article at her married name just because most of the old sources about her, written before she even made that announcement, had used the old name instead of the new one.

C'mon now. No one has ever suggested anything so silly. When the article was first moved, there were, what, ten minutes of sources since Manning announced the new name? We still have less than twenty-four hours. Almost all the sources that mention the name Chelsea Manning at this point are in the context of the gender identity change. No one is saying that we should hold fast to sources prior to today. The problem is we currently have very, very few sources since the name change talking about anything other the name change itself, and so we don't have enough information to decide that Chelsea Manning is the name the subject is most commonly called in reliable sources. -- tariqabjotu 05:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Also, the move of Candice Hoeppner, which receives forty views on a good day, received no objections, so obviously there would be no reason to move it back. However, had a couple people objected, the move should have, and probably would have, been reverted while a move discussion took place, without any accusation of BLP violation. It might have ultimately ended up at Candice Bergen (politician), but that doesn't mean that the former name constituted, or constitutes now, a BLP violation. Same here; the person who started this move request actually feels it should be at Chelsea Manning, but acknowledged that until consensus for that is attained, it should be back at Bradley Manning (of course, that technical move request isn't going to happen now, but that was the original aim of the request). -- tariqabjotu 05:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

And the fact that nobody raised an objection at all was kind of my point about her. You could have made the exact same argument about her, that she was still known as "Candice Hoeppner" in all of the existing sources, that's being made here — but the fact that nobody did make that argument, the fact that no objection was raised at all to the move, speaks volumes in and of itself. Bearcat (talk) 05:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know what point you're trying to make. Very few people view that article, so I'm not shocked that no one objected. If the move request on that page was permitted to see a full seven days, I doubt you'd get many people even supporting. Sure, it wasn't controversial there (an article that received 1/1000th the number of views as this article the day of the name change), but so what? It's controversial here (and at Lily Allen and Ron Artest , etc.), and so the proper protocol is to maintain the original name while a move request takes place. You still have yet cite where BLP prohibits this generally accepted process (although I'd appreciate it if David did that himself... not holding my breath). -- tariqabjotu 06:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• David Gerard is correct. This is a clear case of BLP, and additionally a ton of other Misplaced Pages policies dictate that we use the name and pronoun she uses herself. Any editor moving the article to Bradley Manning should be blocked instantly for BLP violation and sexual harrassment of the subject. Josh Gorand (talk) 22:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Thank all that anyone holds holy, "sexual harrassment" is not a wikipedia policy. You should really learn what sexual harassment is, and stop using terms just because they sound good. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• • Oh yes, sexual harrassment of article subjects is forbidden by a number of policies, most importantly by WP:BLP. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support, give us time to catch our breath and do this the right way. Moncrief (talk) 15:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Agree There is no evidence of any legal name change or even the contemplation of any legal name change, nor do the US documents about him use the "alternative name" for which no legal documentation exists. Where the legal judgment is against "Bradley Manning" it would be confusing to readers to use a name which is not found in the sources about the criminal acts of which he was found guilty. Thus the prior title is correct, is what his own identification says, and should be gone back to. WP:BLP does not support "use the name the person wants even where there is no sign that such a name has been used by that person" else we could have "George Gnarph" say he wants his Misplaced Pages page to have the name "Jimbo Wales", even where he has never used that name in any legal sense. If the subject obtains any legal documentation in the alternative name, then that might fall under BLP, but the case at hand does not. Collect (talk) 15:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

A completed legal name change is not the standard that a transgender person has to meet to have their chosen name accepted as their name. As I've noted elsewhere, you will never have access to any reliable sources can properly which confirm that her legal name change has actually taken place, because her legal records are covered by privacy laws. For any other celebrity who changes their name, we accept a public statement of their name change, and do not make acceptance or use of their new name conditional on them handing out legal records that we do not actually have any right to see — so what valid reason can there possibly be to force a transgender person to meet a higher burden of proof than Metta World Peace had to? Especially when it's a standard of proof that, due to privacy law, can never be properly met? Bearcat (talk) 07:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment Actually, what you seem to want is a technical move done, something which can be done without discussion and immediately. However, considering my technical move wasreversed by David on the grounds of BLP (which he might see as rationale to continue to revert any technical move back to Bradley Manning), this request is a bit futile. (I, of course, dispute the idea that titling the article Bradley Manning, the subject's legal name, is at all a violation of BLP.) I feel it's better for you to just repurpose this as a standard move request back to Bradley Manning and register your opposition (since you state you prefer Chelsea Manning). -- tariqabjotu 15:26, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Bad move. Misplaced Pages:Article titles is the relevant policy page. Specifically, the criteria for recognizability, naturalness, and the general criteria for use common names for article titles. We do not name articles based on official names or a subjects own preferred name. Within the article, the subject may be referred to by different name, but the title ought to be Bradley Manning until another name becomes more common for the subject. --RA (✍) 15:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose move on WP:IAR grounds. There is plenty of context to avoid confusing readers, there are plenty of sources for Manning wanting to be called Chelsea, so I see no good reason to not respect Manning's wishes. —me_and 15:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. A person's gender identity is their choice to make. We are not at liberty to refer to them by anything else, and the reasoning on display in the comments above is incredibly short-sighted, rules-bound, sympathy-deficient, and, frankly, ignorant. — Scott • talk 15:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• I agree the discussion can often turn ignorant and I appreciate you pointing out instances of such when they occur. At the same time, I believe we need to follow Misplaced Pages policy as best we can. Perhaps that does make us "rules-bound," but I do think policy is important. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• I agree: I think we are all on the same page—namely, if any of us met her from now on, we'd call her Chelsea, but it seems Misplaced Pages rules don't make naming articles quite so straightforward. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support The move to the current title was premature. Bradley Manning is the common name used by sources at this point. If / when a majority of sources refer to him by his preferred name, we can have a discussion to move the article back here. This is not a BLP issue. wctaiwan (talk) 15:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

  I would also like to ask editors who say this is a BLP (as opposed to style) issue to justify that claim. Unless there really is a BLP issue, the old title before the undiscussed move should take precedence until consensus can be established. wctaiwan (talk) 15:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: Should be moved back to Bradley Manning. When reputable sources refer to him as "Chelsea Manning" then it can be moved over. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 15:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. MOS: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." I put forward this goes for name too. --151.230.243.44 (talk) 15:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Their name is a proper noun, not a gendered noun, pronoun, or possessive adjective.--v/r - TP 15:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
    • You live in a world where names aren't gendered? The rest of us sure don't. Bearcat (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • The MOS gives examples of gendered nouns, such as man/woman and waiter/waitress. Neither "Bradley Manning" nor "Chelsea Manning" is a gendered noun. -- tariqabjotu 06:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
        • A noun can be both "proper" and "gendered"; most given names, in fact, are simultaneously both of those things. While admittedly there are some names that are non-gendered, such that they can be used for both males and females, neither "Bradley" nor "Chelsea" fall within that grouping. Most given names — including both "Bradley" and "Chelsea" — are gendered nouns. Bearcat (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support For reasons stated above jj (talk) 15:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose "WP:BLP does not support 'use the name the person wants even where there is no sign that such a name has been used by that person' …"
  You are begging the question.

  "… else we could have 'George Gnarph' say he wants his Misplaced Pages page to have the name 'Jimbo Wales', even where he has never used that name in any legal sense."
  Again, I don't find this insistence on legality germane. The Wales --> Gnarph is also invalid: Manning did not ask for her article to be changed, but expressed a wish for people to call her Chelsea. We are debating whether the article is going to reflect her wish. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Misplaced Pages is "The 💕", not a site designed to protect people's "feelings". 91.153.87.155 (talk) 15:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• I am not an expert on trans* issues, but I think gender identity is about more than just "feelings." It's about a core part of your identity. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

The argument seems to be that it's "rude" or "hurtful" or "mean" to use he to refer to Bradley. 91.153.87.155 (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• It very well might be hurtful to do so. I would personally be offended if someone referred to me using a pronoun that was not my preferred one. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose (obviously, but I might as well say it). Lots of the arguments here appear to completely ignore the word MOS:IDENTITY. Manning has requested quite unambiguously to be known as Chelsea and for female pronouns to be used. MOS:IDENTITY says we should give priority to such requests, regardless of her physical transition state. Lots of people here really misunderstand transition - social transition - which is what Chelsea is doing here at her first real opportunity to do so - is generally always necessary before SRS - indeed it was often a precondition for access to HRT. "he" on Manning violates long-established practice, policy and is frankly just *rude*, even on the talk page.) Morwen (talk) 15:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose moving back; support the new title and changing the pronoun to "she". Manning has issued a statement, via her lawyer on NBC's Today show, that she is a woman, has asked to be known as Chelsea, and will be seeking hormone therapy. Several reliable sources have respected this, calling her "she". The NBC presenter and Manning's lawyer called Manning "she" after the statement was made; other sources using "she" include The Guardian and Reuters.

  MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this point: "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." SlimVirgin 15:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

  • As I said to the IP above, their name is a proper noun, not a gendered noun, pronoun, nor a possessive adjective.--v/r - TP 15:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
    • "Gendered" versus "proper" is a false dichotomy. Most proper nouns in English, including "Bradley" and "Chelsea", imply a particular natural gender. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Note this request move is with regards to the page title only. Pronouns are a separate issue, and the policies on pronouns are somewhat different than those for page titles. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• There's no reason to make the pronoun a separate issue. Manning has said she is a woman and will be using a woman's name from now on, and her lawyer and the sources are following suit by using "she," so we may as well decide both issues in the same discussion. Otherwise we'll end up with odd writing, trying to avoid using pronouns or using "they," which has been tried before in this article and ended up looking very strange. SlimVirgin 16:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Pronouns are a separate issue SV, so we should not mix these two up. I'd suggest opening a separate discussion about pronouns (I think there's one above). That has nothing to do with article title however.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: Per CaseyPenk. 23 editor (talk) 15:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. What name we should use is established by MOS:IDENTITY, not by the state of Manning's hormone levels or genitals or personal ID cards. Of course, some people disagree with this notion; the correct place to take that disagreement is Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style, not here. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY and news sources (many already listed above) already changing name and pronoun use to reflect the desired change. There's no reason to doubt that the page will end up at Chelsea Manning eventually, and no strong reason to change it back temporarily.Longsight (talk) 15:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I've always started such a discussion at the bottom of that page. jj (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Can you please quote the relevant sentence(s) of MOS:IDENTITY that support your suggestion, so we're on the same page? CaseyPenk (talk) 15:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• MOS:IDENTITY is clear on the matter of gendered pronouns; in this case, there is no reasonable separation between the change in pronouns and the change in name, as the change request was made in the same statement (and almost the same sentence). It would be incongruous at best to preserve the use of feminine pronouns but return the page to a name that is no longer in use, particularly when numerous referenced sources are starting to correctly recognise the new one. Unless anyone seriously expects Manning to recant on her decision, there's nothing controversial involved in the move.Longsight (talk) 16:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY. Psychonaut & SlimVirgin have put the opposition argument particularly eloquently above, and I agree with them. Jonathan Deamer (talk) 15:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Manning identified herself as Chelsea, and any call to "catch our breath" is irrelevant, since your deficiency in keeping up can be remedied with a redirect to the new name and you actually reading the article. ViniTheHat (talk) 15:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Per Collect. MOS:IDENTITY does not support keeping it at the current title in any way. That MOS:IDENTITY advises on gendered nouns is completely different than the person's name, let alone the WP:COMMONNAME for the subject. Arguing about the use of "he" or "she" is irrelevant to the title of the article, which is a different matter covered by different criteria. - Aoidh (talk) (formerly User:SudoGhost) 15:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose move per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. I think a redirect from Bradley Manning and a mention of her legal name is sufficient to avoid confusion. We should take care to respect the wishes of anyone who chooses to change the pronouns or name by which they are referred. Manning's hormone levels, biological sex, etc. are irrelevant to this discussion, and using them to argue that Manning should be referred to as "Bradley" or with male pronouns is ignorant of transgender issues. This page has been moved enough already—I think this discussion should be used to decide its final location. I don't see much point in moving the page back to Bradley Manning and then restarting this whole discussion. – GorillaWarfare (talk) 15:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)]

To expand on this, from GLAAD Media Reference Guide: Transgender Glossary of Terms, "Always use a transgender person's chosen name. Often transgender people cannot afford a legal name change or are not yet old enough to change their name legally. They should be afforded the same respect for their chosen name as anyone else who lives by a name other than their birth name (e.g., celebrities)." – GorillaWarfare (talk) 16:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: We should absolutely respect this person's wishes, this person is now a 'she', so we should respect her wishes. We should not be calling the subject of an article by anything other than the name they wish to be known, upto and including the title of the page itself. It's not even like we're stopping readers from finding the article or disrupting their reading, they still find it through the redirect, it still contains the same information on Chelsea as it did when she was known as Bradley, it is of no real consequence what the article title really is from an operational/usability standpoint, so there's no compelling reason not to call her by the name she has chosen anyway. If it created a 404, you might, just might have a point, but otherwise it really doesn't matter, so deference to the subject and respect for their wishes must come first. Nick (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oh, and it would be good if CaseyPenk could leave the page alone for a while, in order that those of us who want to comment can do, getting repeated edit conflicts stemming from one line argumentative prose is bloody irritating. Nick (talk) 15:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: This is still very much a developing story, and as far as I can tell the original move was done with little to no discussion. Untill there is some clarity and consistancy in the events and sources, and untill there is a more clear consensus, things should stay as they were. CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - This sort of activist stupidity is bringing WP into disrepute. WP:NOTSOAPBOX. WP:COMMONNAME. How it has gone this far the wrong direction is a little shocking. If there is transgender surgery and a legal name change, then the article should change. Carrite (talk) 16:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

A transgender person's surgical status is irrelevant to the matter (and very often not actually verifiable in reliable sources anyway, because it's subject to the same medical privacy issues as any other surgery.) As noted elsewhere, in most cases the process requires that a person "socially" transition for a period of time before they're even allowed to "surgically" do so — so the fact that they haven't had the surgery yet is irrelevant to the question of what name is more appropriate to use. Bearcat (talk) 03:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at Benjamin Standards of Care; IIRC the patient must live 24/7 as their intended gender for a minimum of one full year before doctors will even consider sexual reassignment surgery. K7L (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Carrite, could you please post some examples of how this change is bringing Misplaced Pages into disrepute? All the major coverage I've seen about it so far has been uniformly positive . Your post implies you've seen a lot of negative commentary from established media outlets, so I'd be interested in seeing the list. —Psychonaut (talk) 07:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• support move back. The COMMONNAME is clearly Bradley, no matter what he/she prefers to be called now. A counter example is Kristin Beck, where the bulk of the media referred to her as such, even though she had served for 20 years as Chris.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is itself quite explicit that there are numerous considerations in which the "common name" can be overridden if there are good reasons to do so. Bearcat (talk) 03:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support, Bradley Manning is (apparently) still his legal name, and it is as Bradley Manning that he is known in the media and to the court. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 16:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Oppose on the grounds that it was not an uncontroversial move and a discussion should've happened beforehand. I very rarely support bureaucratic nonsense, but the way this page was moved and then protected to enforce that move tainted any kind of support I could have had for WP:IAR here. On the whole, I'd probably support this move given a proper discussion and less angry accusations of ignorance. At this point, a return to Bradley would not be to the benefit of Misplaced Pages. However, the two admins involved should not get a false sense of 'right'. The "end result" was right, but their method was an abuse of power, procedure, and trust. Their subsequent nonchalance over the questions of their actions violates WP:ADMINACCT and the use of protection to force their will violates WP:INVOLVED. An Arbcom case is on the horizon and I foresee at least one of these admins losing the tools. But on this particular article, their actions are the inevitable and we lose legitimacy by returning to "Bradley" on procedural grounds alone.--v/r - TP 16:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment: I would draw everyone's attention to the last paragraph of my move request (I added it after I posted the original move request so it might have been missed): "My move request is also not a suggestion of which pronoun should be used. MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that in this case we should use the "she" pronoun. Pronouns are a separate issue from the page title."

Again, let me emphasize that my move request covers the page title and the page title only. Pronoun considerations are not part of my move request. CaseyPenk (talk) 16:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Bradley is the most commonly recognisable name per WP:COMMONNAME as well as the legal name per WP:OFFICIALNAMES. --PiMaster3 16:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose current articles refer to her as both Bradley and Chelsea, while an increasing number of articles refer to her solely as Chelsea as demanded by style guides. 'Net (talk) 16:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support: There may come a time when it is appropriate to move the article, but I agree it is premature to do so now, especially without a meaningful discussion. Uvaduck (talk) 16:05, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose move, per GorillaWarfare, and WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. I see no need to move the page back to Bradley Manning just to have the same arguments all over again. OohBunnies! (talk) 16:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

You can't just quote policy without reading it. BLP and MOS:IDENTITY say nothing about immediately using a "new" name that someone has decided on for themselves. We use WP:AT to name articles, not MOS:IDENTITY.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support The move to Chelsea Manning is certainly not uncontroversial and was done quite suddenly. The move needs to be voted on and a consensus needs to be reached. Besides, nearly every media outlet of note refers to him as Bradley, so the move is unnecessary as per WP:COMMONNAME. --Kevin W. - Talk 16:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Morwen and SlimVirgin. Manning's statement is unambiguous and should be respected. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• support WP:MOSIDENTITY] is clearly not the followed standard when WP:COMMONNAME contradicts. Cat Stevens not Yousef Islam, etc. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support, per WP:COMMONNAME, etc., until and unless a consensus in favor of Chelsea becomes evident among the reliable sources. If that should happen, then move it back. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - for now, at least, 'Bradley Manning' is the COMMONNAME by far. As well as Cat Stevens see also Peter Sutcliffe. GiantSnowman 16:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The subject of the article is a living person, therefore it describes a person's present as well as their past. In sentences or titles that use the present tense, the present mode of gender presentation takes precedence. Since the announcement, most responsible media outlets have been using "Chelsea" and "she" consistently. This AP Stylebook-recommended usage reflects a unique concern with the wellbeing of transgender people.
  "Chelsea" is more than a stage name or a married name, because transgender people who have often struggled with gender identity for all of their lives wish (as the linked media advisory notes) to have their backgrounds described consistently, which may require retroactive changes in names and pronouns. Misplaced Pages is not the gender police, and it should not demand legal documents or surgeries. There is no controversy about how Manning identifies herself, since she clearly stated what her name and gender is. Shrigley (talk) 16:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. Would those making arguments based on Manning's "legal name" please note that in her jurisdiction it is almost certainly the case that one's "legal name" is determined by usage alone. In most cases no official paperwork, procedure, or government recognition is legally required to effect the change. Manning's published proclamation therefore seems to fulfill the requirements for a legal name change in the United States. Further details are available on our articles legal name and name change. —Psychonaut (talk) 16:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support, but only because the controversial move should not have taken place without discussion. I don't understand why WP:BRD isn't being used here. The bold move should have been reverted, then discussion started. It should be moved back, then a proper requested move discussion to move it to Chelsea Manning should take place, even if it is pretty clear that Chelsea Manning will be the eventual name of the article. Trinitresque (talk) 16:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support, per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, and also MOS:IDENTITY which says that using the subject's preferred name should only apply when there is no dispute. Walterego (talk) 19:34, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support as this was premature, per my comments up above and Carrite's usual eloquence. ThemFromSpace 16:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Article was moved without consensus/RMs on three separate occasions in a very short time-span by two editors who seemingly had no interest () in consulting with the wider WP community (perhaps so that they could get the name change through before this article was locked). Thus the previous move was arbitrary and should be reversed. --Tocino, 16:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change" - we don't need to wait for new sources to outnumber the historical ones, we started from a blank slate as soon as Manning's announcement was made. Beyond opening sentences putting the name into context for readers unfamiliar with the story, I can't see that any news sources are insisting on referring to Manning as "Bradley". --McGeddon (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose move per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY, and per GorillaWarfare and McGeddon. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Misplaced Pages policy about expressed identity is clear, we have multiple reputable sources, and Chelsea's preferences are extremely clear. --Mispy (talk) 16:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Bradley Manning still dresses as a man (wears the male military dress uniform,) and is still legally known (in name and otherwise) to the U.S. Army as Bradley - a male. Changing the name to Chelsea should not occur before hormone therapy has even begun (it it ever even will occur) or before a legal name change. I also support reverting all of the pronouns to "he." He is clearly mentally unstable and his latest remarks and desire to be called Chelsea should not be regarded with any merit until the words are matched by some serious and tangible action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IFreedom1212 (talk • contribs)

• I don't think referring to Chelsea as "mentally unstable" is a civil way to approach this issue. CaseyPenk (talk) 9:26 am, Today (UTC−7)

• I interpreted his comment of "Mentally unstable" as an analysis of the situation, not as a BLP attack. Please don't be so keen to jump on him like that, and assume good faith on his behalf. Picture it this way: He has been taken into custody; what's to say that the CIA hasn't psychologically tinkered with his mind and "broken" him? There has been a long, recorded history of psychological operations conducted by the CIA and other agencies during the Cold War. See Project MKUltra for an example of what US agencies are capable of. It is not farfetched to speculate mental instability, given that trial ordeals tend to be traumatic situations for people, even for non-political cases such as convicted robbers or murderers. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support for now. The move should have been put to a vote in the first place, and a consensus based on WP:COMMONNAME needs to be established. Other sources may or may not reflect the change in the long term, but there's no reason to rush to pre-empt them. StuartH (talk) 16:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC). Retract, since my argument was rushing to the move rather than waiting, and in seven days it will be more clear. While it was a mistake to rush to the move (as the articles citing wikipedia itself as taking the lead on this show - not the right way around!) and admins revert warring and settling on a new title without citations or consensus isn't ideal, but that mistake can't be undone now. StuartH (talk) 00:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Bradley Manning is legally still Bradley Manning, not Chelsea Manning. He may yet become Chelsea Manning, but he isn't yet, so moving Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning is premature and a violation of BLP. Once Bradley Manning legally becomes Chelsea if and or when that happens, there will be a firm foundation (and policy) to move it back to Chelsea Manning .  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  16:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The "legal" name change has already taken effect (see my comment above). Will you therefore change your comment to "oppose"? —Psychonaut (talk) 16:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
    • That's your interpretation. Have you any secondary sources that say that Manning's declaration and the jurisdiction he resides in amount to a legal name change? Otherwise your ar just engaging in WP:OR. Abductive (reasoning) 19:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I appreciate Bradley/Chelsea's issues, but I'm pretty sure we don't make changes like this just because we've heard that the BLP subject wants to. Once the primary and secondary sources start routinely referring to her as Chelsea, we can and should rename the article, but this was premature. —Steve Summit (talk) 16:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC) Retracting my !vote, after consideration of other arguments. —Steve Summit (talk) 17:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose move per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. Snappy (talk)
• Oppose per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. Insulam Simia (talk · contribs) 16:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Just a note, people are using Support to both support keeping this article titled Chelsea Manning and others to support reverting it back to Bradley. You can't take a straight vote without reading the remarks accompanying them.Liz 20:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Fervenlty Support the move to THE real name "Bradley Manning" adhering to the Misplaced Pages rules. I mean, seriously? Really? AYFKM?! Ukrained2012 (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support not only under NPOV, but further I think the politicization and ridiculous PC attitude on this website do a disservice to people hoping to get factual information. The fact is, this is a guy, legally and biologically, who has a male name legally. He is a woman only in his own head, and the collective imagination of the radical left. Whether you agree or not, this is not something that is widely accepted, even in the left-leaning media, and Misplaced Pages is a place for neutrality, not Righting Great Wrongs. Further, the 'musician' example that everyone brings up - 'Calvin Broadus' redirects to 'Snoop Dogg' despite the fact that he changed his performing name to Snoop Lion years ago, because the bulk of his mainstream success was as Snoop Dogg. Bradley Manning leaked documents to Wikileaks, not Chelsea Manning. Bradley Manning was tried in a military court, not Chelsea Manning, and without the leak and the trial, there would be no Notability. Clinton (talk)
  • I wasn't aware the Daily Mail was part of the radical left. The things you learn on Misplaced Pages! - David Gerard (talk) 20:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. NPOV: Manning's name hasn't officially changed, nor has his gender. The article title should change when he legally does so. This article is a joke. -- Randy2063 (talk) 01:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Invalid rationale as explained on this page a few hundred times now. Her gender has changed because she says so. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yeah, that'd hold up in court. "Your honor, I couldn't have raped that woman, because you see, I'm a woman." "But I can see the outline of your penis through your pants!" "OBJECTION! He said he's a woman, that makes him a woman!" Well guess what? I said I'm a millionaire, but I'm checking my bank account right now and still only seeing about 30k. "His gender has changed because he said so." What is he, a whistleblower or a psychic? Clinton (talk)
      • Please learn the difference between gender and sex. That might spare us such ridiculous soliloquys. The gender of a person who identifies as female is female. The sex is another matter. Surtsicna (talk) 19:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. I have no problem with noting that Bradley Manning would prefer to be known as "Chelsea Manning." But the name under which Manning gained notoriety is Bradley. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dyrnych (talk • contribs) 02:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY, and per the arguments above of Morwen and SlimVirgin. Manning's clearly stated gender identity trumps some Misplaced Pages editors simplistic arguments about the name and gender stated on Manning's legal documents, and their lame appeals to chromosomes or genitalia as incontrovertible indices of gender. Manning is a pre-op transsexual and per WP:BLP should be treated as such. As of this moment, Google news has53,000 results for "Chelsea Manning," such as MSNBC saying "Bradley Manning is now Chelsea Manning"so we do not have to strain to find reliable secondary sources. We will be following the mainstream media by using the female name and pronouns. Edison (talk) 03:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That's weird, I clicked on that link and it only turns up 26,300. Shouldn't the number be increasing? Ileanadu (talk) 15:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support, I say all of his statements after incarceration be considered statements under extreme duress and not be used as a basis to change his page. You can just have a section on the Chelsea stuff under his original name... User:Jburman, (talk) 04:53, 23 August 2013
• Support. There are several other articles on real people using names they did not like or use for themselves. For example, Pretty Boy Floyd, which doesn't even have the excuse of being Charles Arthur Floyd's legal name at any time in his life; and Chad Johnson (wide receiver) who had his name changed legally to Chad Ochocinco. The mission of Misplaced Pages to provide information would seem to dictate that the articles be titled (and referenced on the Main Page, in this case) with the person's commonly-known name. Miraculouschaos (talk) 00:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Support If I had a Misplaced Pages article and then I suddenly claimed to be a dog, or a cat, would they change it to reflect such a non-sense? Biologically he is a man and will die a man (check his chromosomes XY), and legally he is a man (he even asks to be called by his male name in official stuff). It is stupid to change the wikipedia article... this deserves, at most, a brief section. Misplaced Pages is about FACTS not gay-lobby propaganda. Daniel32708 (talk) 23:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Manning is a living person who has said that her preferred name is Chelsea. Manning is notable under the name 'Bradley', but Chaz Bono was notible under the name 'Chastity' as well, so I don't see how that argument holds. The use of a redirect means that no one is going to miss the article using her former name, so the wish to change the name back comes less from a place of editor concern and more from a place of personal ideology.Nicholas Perkins (T•C) 00:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think Chaz Bono goes as far as supporting the issue of titling the Manning article. The key issue would be when was the title changed to Chaz Bono? If it was changed to that only after he had been known for a while with that name, then it would indicate changing the title of this article is premature. On the other hand, if the title of the article was changed in 2009 as soon as Chaz, or his publicist, made a clear statement of preference then it would support your point. At that time, Chaz was in the process of a gender transition. In May of 2010 he legally changed his name. Does anyone know? My guess is that it didn't change until sometime after when Bono had become known as Chaz. Bono even made a documentary. Ileanadu (talk) 20:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Misplaced Pages is not a soap-box for trans people to play with, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that should value quality over political correctness ten times out of ten. Coming into the page and seeing "her" and "she" all over the place while the picture is of a young soldier is laughable, and unthinkable in a Misplaced Pages just a short year ago. Josepharari (talk) 00:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • It's laughable to see a young soldier referred to as "she"? Believe it or not, soldiers can be female! In the end, I am laughing, but only to your premise. Surtsicna (talk) 14:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. "I am a girl, call me Chelsea" is the worst move rational I've heard in a while. This page is currently laughable and embarrassing. I think some people need to settle down. Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 00:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Oppose WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY make it clear that the most reliable source for a person's name is that person. Manning has made a clear statement that they wish to be known as "Chelsea Manning", and this statement is verifiable in multiple reliable sources. It is thus factual that the subject of this article is named "Chelsea Manning". As the titles of article should match the name of their subject and there are no technical restrictions or disambiguation issues, the correct title of this article is Chelsea Manning. Someone asked whether we would respect a name change to "Barrak Obama", and the answer is we would and the article would be renamed to "Barrak Obama (soldier)" or some other suitably disambiguated title. Thryduulf (talk) 00:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support While Manning's legal name remains "Bradley", Chelsea should only be treated as a nickname. I would be okay with with a title reading: Bradley "Chelsea" Manning, or something of that nature though. Mpgviolist (talk) 00:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose move. Chelsea has mad a clear and articulate statement as to what her gender identity is and why she chose to wait until after the first trial's judgement to make that statement public - as to not distract from the immensely reported-on trial. Clearly this is not anew issue and she has made a plan for starting her transitioning as soon as the military will conform to how the rest of US population already operates. Her gender identity is not a vote, it is her decision. As long as we also denote her former name there is no valid reason to counter her wishes except those who don't want to follow the guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sportfan5000 (talk • contribs)
• Oppose in the strongest terms as a matter of libel, which overrides every Misplaced Pages policy. The subject has clearly stated her intentions to transition and the name she intends to go by, and anyone remotely familiar with trans issues will know that it is unacceptable and much more than an issue of pseudonyms or nicknames to refer to someone by their pre-transition name or with the wrong pronouns. The "born as Bradley Manning" qualifier at the top of the article and quotations bearing that name are acceptable as they are pertinent to notable events, but routinely misgendering the subject throughout the article against their explicit wishes is not. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Libel? Seriously? Which fact is being misstated by titling the article Bradley Manning? Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • The fact that it is no longer her chosen name. Using such a name (and pronouns) in a manner that misrepresents the subject as she currently is could be perceived as an attempt to slander the subject. Haipa Doragon (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Which is not libel. "Libel" is an important word in Misplaced Pages policies, so I'd suggest you use it with more care. Miraculouschaos (talk) 01:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
        • As I said, policies are irrelevant in the face of the law. Libel is neither clear-cut nor defined by Misplaced Pages, and therefore Misplaced Pages editors are legally obliged to avoid publishing material that could be so. Given what numerous sources state, it is her explicit wish to be referred to as Chelsea and with she/her pronouns and it would be tempting fate to do so otherwise. Haipa Doragon (talk) 02:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, it is libel, gross sexual harrassment, a BLP violation, a violation of MOS:IDENTITY, a violation of human decency, and obvously motivated by transphobic hate, to refer to someone who self-identifies as a woman, by insisting on using their former name with which they no longer identifies. And her gender identity issues have been known for years. Josh Gorand (talk) 01:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • I don't mean to be offensive here, but are you joking? It's hard to tell. Either way, there is no way that this would be libel. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 03:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Uh, no... it would be a blatant BLP violation at least, and that carries with it inherent legal complications. Even if it doesn't violate the law, which I doubt anyone here knows for sure, using the wrong name and pronouns would violate the BLP policy, which is held above practically everything else on this site. Haipa Doragon (talk) 03:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
          • I know for sure that it is not libel to use someone's full legal name in reference to that person. Libel isn't an issue that's even on the table. Deep Purple Dreams (talk) 04:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Come on. There are numerous reasonable alternative motivations beyond "transphobic hate" for referring to Bradley Manning (pre-Chelsea-announcement) as Bradley Manning. Here's one: clarity. The discussion on this page is whether it's appropriate to sacrifice clarity to comply with a person's personal desire--not a person's gender identity, but a person's preferred name. There is nothing sacred about a person's preferred name, and treating it like some kind of intrinsic aspect of that person's character is absurd. Dyrnych (talk) 03:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Their name matters when it carries an implication of gender, which is absolutely intrinsic here, extremely sensitive with regards to libel law and BLP policy, and, given that, paramount to any desire for "clarity". Haipa Doragon (talk) 03:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
          • Libel requires falsity. There is nothing false in saying that a person legally named Bradley Manning wishes to be known as Chelsea Manning. Nor is there falsity in stating that that person was legally named Bradley Manning at the time of all pertinent events. Do you have any evidence beyond hand-waving that libel would attach to such claims? Also, would your argument apply if Manning's name had formerly been Pat and she now wished to be known as Jess? Would it be OK to refer to Manning--historically--as Pat? Dyrnych (talk) 03:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
            • It is not false to simply state what someone's legal name is, but to use it in a manner that misrepresents their identity or gender, which would certainly be the case here, is and would defame that individual. The title and contents of an article should represent its subject and its subject is no longer, according to sources, a male by the name of Bradley Manning. Haipa Doragon (talk) 05:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
              • As others have said, you really need to look up libel before you make ludicrous statements. It is certainly not libel to report someone's legal name. Throwing around legal terminology you clearly don't understand because you think it makes your case look stronger is very ill-advised. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
              • I'm very glad that the standard you've articulated is not the standard for defamation, because it would be entirely unworkable and, frankly, absurd. Would it be libelous to give a male-identified male child a name that's traditionally female and then refer to him by that name? Because, even though that's his legal name, that would arguably misrepresent his identity and gender. But the overall point is that according the significance that you do to Manning's fundamentally whimsical decision to change her name to Chelsea creates an unworkable model for Misplaced Pages, because it would be incumbent on Misplaced Pages editors to immediately reword entire articles every time someone decides to go by another name, regardless of the name under which they gained notoriety. That would lead to confusion for readers, misrepresentation of past factual matters, and (in your view) the potential for legal liability if the article isn't changed quickly enough. Note that I'm not calling Manning's gender identity whimsical. Dyrnych (talk) 14:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Libel is a very strong term, especially considering that the name has not legally been changed - and ultimately it's not very accurate. It may not be polite, but it's not libel to refer to someone as their given name or even as their birth name, regardless of whether they are trans or not. 5minutes (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

As a lawyer and former law professor, Agreed. The laws of libel do not apply here. There is no legal risk to Misplaced Pages in using either name.

• Strong oppose Per MOS:IDENTITY. Manning has clearly identified her gender in a highly public venue, and should be referred to accordingly. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Bradley Manning is his name and unless changed, that should be the title of the article especially in consideration that his notoriety occurred under that name. Talmage (talk) 01:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, keep article name Chelsea Manning This is a transgender rights issue. Right to self identify is a major demand of the transgender rights movement and the process of getting government recognition of a name change is a discriminatory barrier of great offense to many people who support the movement. Manning has said in the clearest terms to the media that she wishes to be referred to with feminine pronouns and to be called Chelsea. This is sufficient. The use of this person's former name is contrary to this person's rights. Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Meh, Move back for now. The move was premature and should wait until they officially get their name changed. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support a restoration to his actual name, which is "Bradley Manning", per "recognizability, naturalness, and the general criteria for use common names for article titles" of the article title policy. Really, this is just LGBT politics run amok. Tarc (talk) 02:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support and early close Is this some kind of a joke? His legal name is Bradley Manning and until this is reversed should stay that way per WP:COMMONNAME. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. It seems to me that the spirit of WP:BLP trumps the other arguments. This isn't the same thing as when someone wants a different name for commercial reasons, and as for COMMONNAME, the new name is going to become widely recognized extremely soon. It doesn't matter whether there has been surgery or a legal name change yet. It matters what the subject wants herself to be called. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The move to Chelsea is premature, he/she is best known as Bradley Manning and that is currently his/her official name. Space simian (talk) 02:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  Although I predict this move will confuse readers looking for information about Manning in the months to follow I think it would be unfortunate if we accidentaly set a precedent for a certain title at this moment in time. Considering Mannings recent statement and that the most commonly used name by reliable sources might change in the near future I don't see much point in moving the page back to Bradley in five days from now, therefore I retract my support.

  Instead I would like to add a protest over how this move has been handled. Normal procedure would have been to revert to the previously used (not controversial) name and then discuss the controversial move to Chelsea (see bold-revert-discuss). The way this has been handled is yet another example of Misplaced Pages admins abusing power and bullying in order to push their personal point of view. Space simian (talk) 05:41, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support If Pvc Manning wishes to be known as Cheslea, then the article should note that. Maybe also, the article should note that Pvc Manning wishes to be know as a female and always use the female pronouns in the article itself. But the article title should be "Bradley Manning" (with a Chelsea Manning redirect) until Pvc Manning legal changes names. This was what occured with Chad Johnson (Ochocinco) and should apply here as well. Solarguy17 (talk) 02:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - WP:MOS is clear on this issue and the reasoning behind that policy is sound. The argument that "the facts" are that Manning is a "man" are absurd. There is no such thing as someone having an "objectively factual gender"; the concept of gender (as opposed to biological sex) is completely subjective, varying among individuals in a culture, among different cultures, and among different time periods. Just like with everyone else, Manning's own subjective conclusions determine her gender. And the fact that some Wikipedians feel entitled to "vote" against her decision is disgusting and shameful. Seriously? Do you have nothing more constructive to do than to discuss how you think someone else should be labelled despite that person's objections? This entire discussion is WP:SYSTEMICBIAS at its finest. –Prototime (talk · contribs) 02:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose - MOS:IDENTITY is not a novel invention and it is already specific enough for there not to be ambiguity in regards to what to do in this case. I don't understand the argument that users would have difficulty finding the article, as long as there is a redirect it would be enough to prevent that issue. Legal arguments are not relevant, wikipedia is not the United States system of law. Biological arguments contradict MOS:IDENTITY Vexorian (talk) 02:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support, but I am willing to reconsider as more information comes in - The move was premature and should have been implemented only after clear consensus in this controversial issue. It also would be nice to wait until we see how the majority of reliable, secondary sources handle the issue. At this time, "Bradley Manning" is the more recognizable name, and readers are more likely to search for this name -- see WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. Edge3 (talk) 03:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• I'm so confused. Don't we follow reliable sources? Support. Red Slash 03:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support move per WP:COMMONNAME. I think WP:NOTNEWS has a role to play here too. There should not have been a rush in changing the title. Over time, the most common name in the sources may change to the female name, but it clearly has not changed as of this time. Further, as discussed above, MOS:IDENTITY is not about article titles, and I don't there is a BLP issue. BLP is about facts, and this person is currently known by two different names, and the article reports both of them. Neutron (talk) 04:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The purpose of WP:NOTNEWS is to exclude articles where the entire article topic is some briefly-notable event that's news today, forgotten tomorrow. It's not a call to keep clearly outdated information as if it were current nor to omit reliably-sourced info on a subject which already met the criteria for an article. K7L (talk) 05:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No, the purpose of WP:NOT#NEWS is varied, and includes events with no lasting coverage etc but is not limited to that. WP:ISNOT covers all information on wikipedia, IRWolfie- (talk) 15:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose to moving back, and strong support for the new article title, for using "Chelsea," and for the pronoun change from "he" to "she" throughout the article, as per MOS:IDENTITY which is unambiguous in requiring that WP "reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification," as per SlimVirgin above as well as Bearcat, GorillaWarfare, SJ and others. Manning has made a clear public statement plus reliable sources have shifted to calling her Chelsea. Many editors here are saying they would support the move once media start referring to Manning as Chelsea rather than Bradley. As a matter of policy I don't know if that shift is necessary, but to the extent that it is: she is being called Chelsea by the Guardian, the Independent, MSNBC, the Atlantic, ABC News, Slate magazine, the New Statesman and Vanity Fair.The public editor of the New York Times has come out in favour of using Chelsea, as has the public editor at the Globe and Mail. Sue Gardner (talk) 04:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  I'm not sure those are good examples. We're not talking about sources that use the name in the context of her gender identity change; we're talking about sources that use the name Chelsea Manning casually, in the context of other news events. (And this was an especially terrible example. Really now.) -- tariqabjotu 04:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

In every single one of those articles, she is referred to as "she" and "Chelsea." Phrases are used such as "formerly known as Bradley," "now known as Chelsea," "now Chelsea Manning," and "formerly known as Bradley Manning." The New York Times public editor closes with this sentence: "But given Ms. Manning’s preference, it may be best to quickly change to the feminine and to explain that — rather than the other way around." I'd say they're good examples :-) Sue Gardner (talk) 05:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• If you look on google as well you will find reliable news sources using the wording "Bradley Manning" as recent as 30 minnutes ago. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose to moving back to Bradley. It feels weird to comment right after Sue (who made some of my thoughts redundant), but I'll add this: news articles and headlines have to start by identifying the subject. The world knows Chelsea right now as Bradley, so the headlines of reliable sources would logically refer to her as Bradley for coverage of the name change. Misplaced Pages is not bound by the same rules, as someone is proactively searching for Manning (and will find her via searches for either name). Her statement was made in a reputable location, and is well-grounded in context. In this instance, the policies on pronouns should also apply to the article title. --\/\/slack (talk) 04:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose strongly moving back (that is, we should keep it at Chelsea Manning). There's a lot of editors I've had disagreements with in the past who are making very strong arguments for this, but I think Sue Gardner's comment right above just sums it all up better than I could. (And we do have redirects, these days.) Abeg92contribs 04:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support While it's fine to note that Manning now identifies as female, per WP:COMMONNAME it should obviously be at "Bradley Manning". Muhammad Ali's page is not at "The Greatest of All Time". Idi Amin's page is not at "The Last King of Scotland". Joefromrandb (talk) 04:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per Sue Gardner, SJ, GorillaWarfare and others. The place where the most careful consideration of the question of "How does an encyclopedia handle it when an article subject comes out as trans?" has been the development of the MOS:IDENTITY guideline. In my opinion, editors arguing such things as "policy trumps guidelines" and "MOS:IDENTITY only covers pronouns not article titles" are arguing the letter rather than the spirit of the most relevant and thoughtful guideline (with regard to respecting BLP issues) that we have about this dilemma. Paul Erik 04:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I feel that WP:POVNAME and WP:TITLECHANGES also apply and are policies under Misplaced Pages:Article titles, there was No consensus to move this page to Chelsea Manning in the first place, what happened as a result? A stable good article was ruined from it. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 04:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Past precedent and WP:BLP is quite clear on this. We go by gender identity name. It's as simple as that. Silverseren 05:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • There is nothing in WP:BLP that says that, however I did find at MOS:IDENTITY "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article" This has been discussed over at the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 05:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY. K7L (talk) 05:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support moving back to Bradley Manning for many of the reasons cited above; not only is it the common name and there are no independent sources citing "Chelsea" in a context other than the recent change, but I find WP:COMMONNAME to be most appropriate and most compelling at this time. Additionally, I find the move to Chelsea was without the necessary consensus and should be reverted unless and until the necessary consensus develops. JasonCNJ (talk) 06:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Don't know I am completely unsure about this. We need more time to see how things pan out. One thing I would say. The Chelsea article is being edited at he moment. Should it become Bradley again, the Chelsea article should be editted rather to change the "her" to "his" and of course "Chelsea" to "Bradley". There should not be a switch back to the original Bradley article, as all subsequent edits would be lost. I am inclinded to think the article will remain under "Chelsea", as people get used to the concept. People are a bit afraid of transgender, although the actions of Bradley/Chelsea show that they do great things. If Bradley is known as Chelsea in future, which seems will be the case, then an article called Bradley Manning will be confusing to say the least. Wallie (talk) 06:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. The discussion can happen on a page named as per Chelsea's wishes (which are the ones we use in the article as per MOS:IDENTITY), and redirects will keep everything sane until the situation stabilizes. I think it's important for Misplaced Pages to use the name currently in use in the media and as chosen by Chelsea herself, a living person. Unless there are good reasons not to, such as evidence of coercion or if the majority switches back to using her previous name, the new page title can be discussed within the article itself or here, not at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. -- Gaurav (talk) 06:53, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support: There was insufficient consensus for the previous move, and there was not enough opportunity for opponents to voice their objections. As of present Manning has yet to even make the first surgical/therapeutic step towards transwomanhood or whatever the new, fancy term people use nowadays. He has not requested an official name change, and his legal name remains to be Bradley. Until the proper changes have been made, this article should reflect the de jure AND de facto realities. Furthermore, per WP:COMMONNAME we use the name most commonly used in English-language reliable sources - most RSes have yet to make the change, and still use the name Bradley. Misplaced Pages should not be the "first" or a "trendsetter", as that would be in contrary with the purpose of Misplaced Pages, which only should describe things that are proven by existing sources. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 07:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support 1) Gender change currently is just a wish and not official. 2) Gender change is not carried out physically. 3) MOS:IDENTITY is well meant but certainly a stumbling block in this case: “…a person's latest expressed gender self-identification.” It should not trump the facts and be understood as the guideline it is and not as a hard rule. Alandeus (talk) 07:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Slate, a "left" leaning publication is applauding the speed at which Misplaced Pages moved to Chelsea Manning. A writer for the National Review, a "right" leaning publication, does not approve, quoting someone complaining that the "mainstream media" lagged Misplaced Pages in order to criticize the quote and declare "We need structure here and a proper legal process." Misplaced Pages should not end up lined up with the "left" media like this. But having said that, I say "Oppose" because to those who support a move back to Bradley Manning I have to advise you that we lost this battle long ago. The prompt renaming of this article to Chelsea is the natural outcome of years of Misplaced Pages's political evolution, and you are not going to roll that back overnight. I also don't think it SHOULD be rolled back overnight, hence my "Oppose." Look, while we should not be advancing the LGBT agenda or any other agenda in the media, the fact is that the development of the WP:BLP policy brought the desires of Misplaced Pages's article subjects into relevance. The sovereignty of the individual to determine how he or she is perceived is still not total on Misplaced Pages, but it is pretty close to total when it comes to the identification of trans people. There is a strong lean among Misplaced Pages's editors towards opposing attempts to channel individual sexuality or sexual identity into collectively mediated "norms." With all due respect to transgendered persons, what's happened here is going to be perceived by non-Wikipedians as the "trans lobby" having unchecked control over Misplaced Pages. I understand that according to the 2011 National Transgender Discrimination Survey only 21% of trans people have updated all of their legal documents, but there is a cost to Misplaced Pages to actively righting this wrong as opposed to remaining passive and just drifting with the flow of reliable sources. Those of us who have WP:NPOV concerns lost our ability to keep Misplaced Pages out of the news long before last year's blackout in support of a political campaign against legislation before Congress. In the name of transparency I suggest letting this go through so the public understands the state of Misplaced Pages 2013. A flip back to Bradley Manning would amount to a revolution against Misplaced Pages 2013 and those of us who are "conservatives" should look for less radical options like pushing back more against the policies, guidelines, and Wikimedia Foundation statements that have have evolved to collectively make inevitable Misplaced Pages's pioneering in terms of the speed and degree to which it rewrites articles about Manning from top to bottom in the feminine pronoun.--Brian Dell (talk) 08:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC) P.S. I've already proposed that use of the subject's latest expressed gender self-identification be limited to occasions where there is a reasonable expectation that the subjective self-identification will be objectively verified by means of acceptance by the legal system and adoption by most reliable sources.--Brian Dell (talk) 09:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. If we defer to organizational name changes, then so should we for personal name changes too. And even per WP:COMMONNAME, we should give greater weight to reliable sources published after Pfc. Manning's name change, which in this news cycle, are all focusing on Manning's name change to Chelsea. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 08:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. MOS:IDENTITY addresses the gender pronoun, so referring to him as "she" in the article seems appropriate due to that. The name, however, is only if no dispute is associated and there is definitely dispute so his legal name of Bradley Manning should be used in the article and as the title. A redirect from Chelsea and a note about it in the article would be sensible, but even so we don't know what name he will feel like using the next time he talks to somebody. He's already given more than one female name. --Sam Bingner 08:12, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support returning to the most common name I do not see how this is different from Cat Stevens. Both are notable under their former names not the presently chosen names. Regarding WP:BLP. It is policy that require us to minimize damage to a living person by hiding damaging or doubtful information. What information we are trying to hide by renaming article to Chelsea? That she was ever known as Bradely? The only way to hide is to completely delete article because everything this person is notable was done under name of Bradeley. Alex Bakharev (talk) 08:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose MOS:IDENTITY is clear on this and tates that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. The pronoun should also be a she because of it. I dont have any personal feelings on this but we should abide by policy and i recently asked a similar question to Jimbo Wales, the founder of this website. Hee said that self-affiliation is paramount. Therefore the title should remain. Also, this is a WP:BLP issue because your calling a trans person by the pre-trans name. You might as well cal Muhamad Ali Cassius Clay. I also believe that WP:NPOV is applicablew here. All the centrist or moderate newspapers i can think of off the top of my head use Chelsea and she as a pronoun i.e. Washington Post, US. , The Telegraph, UK. , Daily Mail, UK.. Business newspapers can also be relied upon sine they usually don't have socially conservative biases nor sociallly liberal biases so International Business Times, US. uses Chelsea and feminine pronouns as well. Pass a Method talk 08:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • We really shouldn't be making arguments based on what Jimbo says. The word of Jimbo is not supposed to be something that must be absolutely revered. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Pass a Method: Or Yusuf Islam Cat Stevens? Or Lily Rose Cooper Lily Allen? The interpretation of BLP in this manner runs counter to consensus on Misplaced Pages. -- tariqabjotu 23:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per WP:Commonname. The move was very premature and without consensus. All kind of media outlets are obviously in a process of discussing how to refer to Manning in the future. Misplaced Pages is WP:Notnews and should not lead in a name change, but wait and see what reliable sources choose. There is some summary of the discussion here (with regard to gender pronoum). New York Times is for the time being sticking with Bradley/“he” for the following reason: “Generally speaking we call people by their new name when they ask us to, and when they actually begin their new lives. In this case we made the judgment readers would be totally confused if we turned on a dime overnight and changed the name and gender of a person in the middle of a major running news story. That’s not a political decision. It is one aimed at our primary constituency — our readers.” Regards, Iselilja (talk) 08:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support, official name is official until it has been changed. --Stryn (talk) 08:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support Per WP:COMMONNAME, articles should be titled by the most common name. Even a cursory search of reliable sources demonstrates that the most common name in English for this article's topic is Bradley Manning. This is a no brainer. It clearly needs to be changed back. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 09:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. In this case (and, what is also very important: in this moment), I see no overriding encyclopedic principle that would trump WP:COMMONNAME. MOS:IDENTITY certainly doesn't - for one, it doesn't say anything about the title. In particular, the NYT quote supplied by Iselilja above strikes me as more or less the only possible common sense approach to the issue. GregorB (talk) 10:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The move has been premature and should be reverted. This person is known for being involved in the WikiLeaks affair, and throughout these events was known as Bradley Manning. Therefore, per WP:COMMONNAME, this should also be reflected in the title of the Misplaced Pages article. I only learned of his name/gender change from the Misplaced Pages main page, so it can not be considered to be common knowledge (yet). Also, I think User:Alex Bakharev brought forth quite a good argument when comparing the Manning case with Cat Stevens.--FoxyOrange (talk) 10:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Like many others above, I see WP:COMMONNAME as the most salient policy here. A quick google search of news in the last day suggests that a great deal of sources still refer to Manning as Bradley, e.g. "Bradley Manning: 'I am a female.'" The Independent is happy to consider Manning as female, using "she" etc. throughout, but still initially names the article's subject as Bradley, who now wishes to be called Chelsea. The only major outlet that is identifying Manning as Chelsea over Bradley in its headlines appears to be the Guardian. Until that changes (which it absolutely might in the next few days), this move is premature and the article should be at Bradley Manning. (And, from what I can see about the history of this move, a lack of consensus on the issue should result in a reversion to Bradley Manning also.) U-Mos (talk) 11:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I think google search results are supposed to affect wikipedia editing decisions. Vexorian (talk) 13:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support: An admin should have reverted this immediately since it was done out of process. (Since others are opining also: Per WP:CommonName, plus just too soon. Do put it in the first sentence as "who prefers to be known as Chelsea E. Manning" for now. When it becomes clear that Manning wants to continue using the name and a number of sources are in fact using it, it would be appropriate to change. Also, considering this is an important legal case and most of the events of importance to American history will have happened before the announcement, it seems strange that Manning would be called a she for most of the article, even if Manning preferred that. If a person who was blond all their notable life, nicknamed the "blond brainiac" or whatever, became a brunette and wanted to be re-described as a brunette in their Misplaced Pages bio, that would seem to be a questionable rewriting of history. In the personal section, if there was a discussion Manning's experiences as a closet transgender person, or whatever, it would be appropriate to describe Manning as "she" since it would be a description of Manning's objective emotional state.)

• Support An article's title cannot be changed this quickly, without consensus. Misplaced Pages policy was not adhered, so the default title should be restored. Sovetus (talk) 11:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong opppose, as MOS:IDENTITY seems fairly black and white. — Richard BB 11:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

IDENTITY is a style guide concerning the content of an article, whereas WP:COMMONNAME is policy regarding the title of articles. That is what is being discussed here. Support votes here are not votes of support for describing Manning as "he" in the prose of the article. U-Mos (talk) 11:31, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Article_titles#Considering_title_changes Title change to Chelsea Manning is being discussed. The title change breaks Misplaced Pages policy. Agreed, it seems pretty black and white. Note that MOS:IDENTITY states "When there is no dispute". There is a dispute, making it void. Sovetus (talk) 11:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The "dispute" is not as to the claim itself; that is undisputed. That others want to claim it doesn't count (because of no attestation of hormone levels, or whatever) does not make it a "dispute" for that purpose - David Gerard (talk) 11:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No, the type of dispute is not specified. There is a dispute, so again, it's void. Sovetus (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The "when there is no dispute" is in reference to what's in the first bullet point, not the second. — Richard BB 11:49, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed that is what I was referring to. Keep in mind that it's a guideline and not a policy though. Sovetus (talk) 12:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• oppose. MOS:IDENTITY says what it says, and I see this as no different to the generally undisputed name changes frequently requested by musicians. I suspect that most of the objection, even if veiled in terms of interpreting Misplaced Pages policy, really boils down to "I don't want to change my gender, nobody I can relate to wants to change their gender, so if somebody wants to change their gender they're weird and strange and it shouldn't be allowed". Please, let's get over that. The fact that people are different is awesome, and I for one celebrate the chance to find out about people who are, truly and deeply, different to me in some way. It keeps things interesting. I'm a bit disappointed at the number of "support" votes from folks not giving a damn about Misplaced Pages policy, and simply saying variations on "But he's still got a penis and is says Bradley on his documents..." As documented elsewhere, these facts are irrelevant in this case. Alaric (talk) 11:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong support. Per WP:COMMONNAME. A quick search on Google reveals that Manning is still widely referred to as Bradley. His statements after incarceration cannot be used as a strong basis to change this page's name. Bright Darkness (talk) 12:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. If, as I gather from the above comments, gender is something that you can change by declaring that you do, it is something utterly subjective. Therefore, as an encyclopedia based upon the pillar of NPOV, we should take the path of least resistance (in this case, least likely to be thought of as non-neutral) and categorise persons by their sex as opposed to their gender, given that the first is far less controversial than the second (unless anybody wants to claim that Bradley Manning is of the female sex now, which would constitute either a falsehood or a radical redefinition of the verb "is"). -Anagogist (talk) 12:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support WP:UCN and MOS:IDENTITY demand it revert to Bradley. He grows up for 20-some-odd years at Bradley Manning, He commits acts against the country as Bradley Manning, gets convicted and sentenced as Bradley Manning. And for one day says "Call me Chelsea" and we jump? No. If Charles Manson wanted to be called Veronica Manson, we wouldn't trade a one-day circus freak show with the years and significance under his own name. We will always have to qualify this article by reference to his history under where he gained notability/notoriety...as Bradley Manning, and it would be just as ridiculous as that phrase "The Artist formerly known as Prince." --ColonelHenry (talk) 12:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose They have explicitly asked to be referred to as "Chelsea Manning" and "She". The fact the mass media are constantly misgendering her is not an excuse to perpetuate the transmisogyny. --Dee Earley (talk) 12:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Some exceptions aside, there are plenty of media outlets who are not misgendering Manning. Almost all reports since her identification as female are about that very act, and so or the time being the principal name used in such reports is naturally going to be Bradley. If and when that changes, Misplaced Pages can and should follow suit. U-Mos (talk) 12:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• (@Dee Earley) Misplaced Pages is not the place to be righting great wrongs. If there is something "wrong" with the media, go take it to them. Misplaced Pages:Advocacy is not what this place is for, see WP:NOT (more specifically, WP:SOAPBOX). -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:46, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point, she said she is now using the name X, therefore we should use the name X. My point about the media is that just because they're ignoring it doesn't mean WP should too. --Dee Earley (talk) 14:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

"My point about the media is that just because they're ignoring it doesn't mean WP should too" - again, the purpose of Misplaced Pages is not what you might think it is. This website exists not to introduce new ideas, but to repeat ideas that exist elsewhere. Have a look at what Misplaced Pages is about. -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 14:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It appears that adhering to its own MOS:IDENTITY policy is something else Misplaced Pages is not for. --Dee Earley (talk) 14:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I thought this was a RM discussion about the article title, and that the "she" shenanigans that MOS:IDENTITY deals with are discussed in a section below. Turns out that this isn't a RM discussion, huh? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 15:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose She owns her name, she has explicitly stated intention to legally change it and pursue physical gender reassignment, and while the likelihood that the entire media will refer to Manning as "Chelsea" anytime soon is essentially nil, there are already numerous major media sources referring to Manning as Chelsea. The combination of Manning's stated intention/preferences and substantial, if not universal, pickup outweighs any other concerns. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡbomb 12:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per MoS and the subject's clearly stated preference. I understand that some may support the move on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME, but the amount of pure, policy-unrelated bigotry displayed by a vocal minority is appalling. I thought, obviously naively, that all such people had moved to Conservapedia, concerning themselves there with proving that women's rights movements cause cancer or whatever. What's even worse is that some of these users are minors. Anyway, I'd be willing to bet that many of those who favour Bradley Manning over Chelsea Manning opposed moving Hillary Rodham Clinton to Hillary Clinton, despite claiming here that common name trumps preferred name. An example off the top of my head - Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, called Kate Middleton by an overwhelmingly large majority of sources, has stated that she wishes to be known as Catherine, and we respect her wish. Why doesn't the subject of this article deserve that we respect her wish? Surtsicna (talk) 13:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• You really shouldn't use ad hominem attacks against other people simply because they disagree with you. By saying that we're all crazy right-wing neo-cons that belong at Conservapedia, you're essentially making a personal attack against other contributors. Address the content, and not the person. Also, why should people with different views to you have to leave for Conservapedia? Is Misplaced Pages your super secret clubhouse, for like-minded pro-(whatever) people only? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 13:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Please don't misunderstand me, Benlisquare. I never said that you are all "crazy right-wing neo-cons". In fact, I never said that about anyone. I clearly said that I understand those who support the proposal on the basis of WP:COMMONNAME and who thus have different views than I. I do understand them, although I disagree with them (as explained above using examples of women who are referred to by their preferred name rather than by their overhwelmingly more common name). Please note the conjuction "but", which seperates these users from those that "I thought had moved to Conservapedia". Instead of citing valid arguments, the latter only shout out that Manning has a penis. Nothing more, unless you include repeatedly and as prominently as possible pointing out that they consider her a "he". Therefore, I have addressed the content, and I have clearly distinguished people with reasonable arguments from people with purely bigoted screeching. Surtsicna (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge is not a pertinent example, because articles about royalty are covered by special naming conventions that overrule WP:COMMONNAME. - Cal Engime (talk) 14:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Firstly, WP:NCROY is about formats, not about contents of article titles. Secondly, articles about transgender people are also covered by special naming conventions that just as much overrule WP:COMMONNAME. Surtsicna (talk) 15:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• No, MOS:IDENTITY is not a naming convention; it is a guideline for article content, and WP:COMMONNAME often overrides respect for article subjects' wishes. Many good examples have already been given: late in life, Malcolm X adopted the name El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz, but he is still referred to as Malcolm X, so that is what we call him. Cat Stevens adopted Yusuf Islam as his personal, professional, and legal name 35 years ago, but it is as Cat Stevens that people will look for information about him. If we want to follow policies and guidelines, the title should be Bradley Manning, but the content should begin "Chelsea Elizabeth Manning (born Bradley Edward Manning) is..." and use feminine pronouns. - Cal Engime (talk) 15:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• WP:COMMONNAME does not appear to "override respect for article subjects' wishes" when it comes to Hillary Clinton Hillary Rodham Clinton and Kate Middleton Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, which is what I originally noted. Surtsicna (talk) 15:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia not a "Have your wishes granted here" sort of thing, if the media is calling the person "Bradley Manning" then we follow and call the person Bradley Manning its simple as that. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I just named two women who got their wishes granted despite the fact that the media only seldom uses their preferred names. It's obviously not as simple as you claim it is. Surtsicna (talk) 19:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support a move back to Bradley Manning per WP:COMMONNAME Eopsid (talk) 13:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Keep it at Chelsea Manning As others have said, MoS:Identity is clear on the pronoun issue. While it doesn't directly speak on the title issue, the principles remain the same when a person has clearly expressed a desire to be known by a different name for reasons of gender identity. Similarly the basic ideal of BLP strongly supports us sticking with the subject's preference. IMO, as I mentioned above, these two do ultimately supercede COMMONNAME in this as they do in other cases. I originally planned to support a move back to Bradley Manning in the event of no consensus based on our normal practice is to stick with the earlier version in the event of no consensus of a disputed change but on further consideration I think that shouldn't apply here. In the event of no consensus a subject's clear preference should be the default option. I do not consider this similar to the case of Burma/Myanmar or Ivory Coast/Côte d'Ivoire (where incidentally I support both Myanmar and Côte d'Ivoire) because although the government has expressed a clear preference for the name in English, the issue is on a far lesser scale than a person's gender preference. Similarly for case like a mildly offensive but common nickname. This seems to be similar for Chad Johnson although I don't really get the relevance of that case anyway, our article was titled Chad Ochocinco for most of the time he was known as that, when he changed back his name we changed it back as well. It's true we didn't have the space for a year or two and we never followed the 'Hachi Go' which from what I can tell, wasn't even seriously followed by Chad. A more comparable example I can think of would be something like Malcolm X, where someone abandons their former surname because of their extreme dislike of how they came to have that surname. (Similar examples may be a kidnapping victim or someone abandoning a name given to them by abusive parent/s or where say a person who finds out they're descendent from someone who renamed themselves to try and escape persecution and choses to completely embrace their ancestral name.) While some may suggest this means we should name the article Malcolm Shabazz or Malik el-Shabazz, from what I can tell although that name was used and may have been preferred, they didn't have similar hostile feelings towards the name Malcolm X. In any case, I consider this whole discussion somewhat of a waste of time. I'm reasonably sure within a few weeks, if not in the 7 days of a normal RM, it's going to become clear Chelsea Manning is her common name so the issue will be moot. I only bothered to reply in the hope it will help clarify the issue for future cases where the limited number of reliable sources and interest may make it more difficult. BTW, on the Brianna issue, if she later decides she would prefer Brianna but most sources still use Chelsea, I would have no problem sticking with Chelsea unless there is similarly a very good reason to use Brianna. (The same of it had been in reverse.) Nil Einne (talk) 14:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC) Edit: I would add that to some extent we're fortunate that Manning did not feel it better change his surname/family name as e.g. Brandon Teena. While this discussions is only about the title, and many supporters of Bradley have noted we should use Chelsea in the article intro, this is fairly normal. What is AFAIK abnormal is for us to use one surname in the article and another in the title. Most of the examples cited e.g. Lily Allen, Malcolm X (which because of the X uses Malcolm X) do not do so. Yet IMO there's even less justification to do so under out policies in this case or in other examples I outlined (e.g. even if Malcolm X was still commonly referred to as Malcolm Little despite a clear strong adversion to the surname Little. One thing I forgot to mention before, I acknowledge that precisely how strongly Bradley feels about the name thing may not be entirely clear, IMO the evidence is strong enough, even with the most recent statement shown below that it is something she cares a lot about even if she knowns in some circumstances it will be unavoidable. Nil Einne (talk) 23:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Because, for one, MOS:IDENTITY requires Misplaced Pages to respect the gender identity of biographical subjects, and two, legal names and biological sex has no bearing on how a subject is identified by the encyclopedia. "Norma Jean Mortenson" is listed as Marilyn Monroe, and Joshua Abraham Norton, the self-proclaimed Emperor of San Francisco, is called Emperor Norton. Gender identity is not comparable to those two examples, of course, but they do demonstrate that the encyclopedia's commitment to "fact" doesn't require it to use legal recognition as an all-important criteria. theBOBbobato (talk) 14:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Suppport Bradley Manning is the common name, and also the name used for all the most notable activity (I haven't seen a source that refers to Chelsea Manning without mentioning Bradley Manning). Manning also went by Brianna Manning before as the above notes. If Chelsea becomes Manning's established name then we can change at that point, but at the moment this move violates WP:CRYSTAL. Misplaced Pages isn't the place to right great wrongs; change the world, and it will eventually be reflected in this article, not the other way around, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose She has made clear her desire to be known as Chelsea Manning and we should respect that. The redirect from her old name to her new name is sufficient. edd (talk) 14:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support until such time that the majority of reliable sources begin to refer to him as Chelsea and/or he legally changes his name to Chelsea. Even then, there seems to be no reason to change the gender of pronouns in the article until Manning undergoes some kind of sexual reassignment surgery. His body is clearly still male, referring to him as "she", while respectful of his wishes, only serves to confuse the reader. Which do we value more, having a factual and easy-to-understand article on Manning, or going to great lengths to respect Manning's wishes. What would we do if Manning came out tomorrow and said that he'd like to be considered a dog instead of a human, that we should refer to him as Rover, and use "it" instead of "he/she"? Manning can say that he wants to be a girl all he wants, but the fact remains that he's not. ‑Scottywong| talk _ 14:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• I think a comparison in any way involving dogs (or other non-humans) may not be the most civil way to approach this issue. That approach may offend some people. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• I'm just saying that Manning is asking people to refer to him as something that he is not. If he asked us to refer to him in the same way that we'd refer to a single-celled amoeba, I doubt we'd oblige. I'm obviously not inferring that transgendered people (or whatever the correct term is) are equivalent to dogs or amoebas, I'm just making a comparison to illustrate my point. ‑Scottywong| gossip _ 14:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Although I may contradict my last comment on this page, unless "Chelsea" is Manning's nickname I oppose the move. He's still a man, and he's still named Bradley legally speaking. There's no documents about his name and sex change... yet. But for now the title should be named "Bradley Manning". Just use his custom name as a sidenote. Hitmonchan (talk) 14:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support return to "Bradley Manning" (with "Chelsea as a redirect) - At the moment, reliable sources are still overwhelmingly calling the subject "Bradley". So, per WP:COMMONNAME "Bradley" should continue to be the title of the article. That said... we should re-evaluate the situation in a month or so. If it can be established that sources are changing their usage to reflect Manning's preference, then I would heartily support a new RM to move the title to "Chelsea". Blueboar (talk) 15:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. WP:COMMONNAME "the new name is going to become widely recognized extremely soon" means it is not recognized now. Therefore the move to change the title from the one users of Misplaced Pages are expected to know was premature. We are responding to a statement made in the current news cycle. Apparently in the past Manning has expressed a desire to have a different first name and Manning can pick a different name to be called tomorrow. That should not govern how an encyclopedia, even a wiki-pedia titles its articles. Within the article itself there can be clarification as to the person's chosen name. I think this issue is similar to that of countries wanting to be called by another name than the one recognized by the rest of the world. I am not making light of the feelings and frustrations relating to gender identity, and I understand that country names don't concern gender identity, but issues of identity, including ethnic and religious identity, are very strongly felt. Using ] can give great offense in a number of areas, but the purpose of using the Common Name is to facilitate the user's ability to locate the correct article. The example of Cat Stevens, which is not his birth certificate name nor his preferred name, is one where the ] has been kept. Whatever name is chosen will lead to some confusion, but that is to be expected any time a famous person changes their name; as in the Cat Stevens article, the confusion can be easily cleared up in the first sentence. Ileanadu (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support revert to Bradley Manning. A move to Chelsea Manning may be in order soon, depending on whether the new name catches on, but doing this move precipitously on the day of his announcement of what he wants to be called was inappropriate. We don't retitle company or band or person articles just because they announce a new thing they want to be called. And while I respect the gender identity decision, we again need to wait and see just how real it is, as opposed to a sentencing-day stunt. Give it a few days at least and let's watch and talk about it. Dicklyon (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. Bradley is still his name and he is still a he until he changes both his name and undergoes the necessary treatments to become a woman. In addition, until sources start solely printing his name as "Chelsea", it needs to stay as Bradley. For example, if my name is John (and I'm notable) and prefer to be called Johnny, but all the media prints it as John, then my wikipedia page should say John.--Giants27(T|C) 16:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Leave it where it is, per WP:BLP, WP:IDENTITY and the subject's clearly-stated wish. Preferred name and gender identity should be respected. The lead makes it clear she was identified as male and Bradley, Bradley Manning redirects here, a Google search for "Bradley Manning" finds "Bradley Manning - Misplaced Pages, the 💕" which redirects here. No one will have any problems finding this article whichever of the two terms they use, in a search engine or our search box. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:59, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Again there is NOTHING in WP:BLP that covers this and under WP:IDENTITY it points to policies including WP:TITLECHANGES as this does not have to do with article content but an article's title. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• • • Yes, it violates the very spirit and fundamental principles of BLP. Josh Gorand (talk) 18:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • "Yes it does" without showing where or discussing is not an argument - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Josh is right. The spirit of BLP policy is to treat our subjects with respect. Not deference, but respect. For those arguing that we have to wait for reliable sources to call her Chelsea or her:

• Daily Mail, UK. Uses feminine pronouns.
• The Guardian, UK. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• The Age, Australia. Uses feminine pronouns.
• SBS, Australia. Uses feminine pronouns.
• The Independent, UK. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Rolling Stone, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• New Statesman, UK. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Mirror UK. User Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Slate, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Washington Post, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Inquisitr, US Uses Chelsea, feminine pronoun
• The Telegraph, UK. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• The Nation, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns
• The Atlantic US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Baltimore Sun, US Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• MSNBC US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• International Business Times US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• TIME, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• New York Magazine, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• ABC News, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Huffington Post, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.
• Today, US. Uses Chelsea, feminine pronouns.

--Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:37, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• • • • • • You can throw all the sources that you want out there are ones out there that use Bradley Manning as mentioned here numerous places one more being CNN:

• CNN "Could Bradley become Chelsea? The answer is no, not without a fight" There are plenty of sources that state his name as "Bradley" per elsewhere in the argument here. As for BLP that is a broad statemen, are you saying that major news media are not treating this with respect when it is in the majority of sources? Since when is Misplaced Pages the authority on this? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:51, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• It's really simple, knowledgekid. Manning wants to be known as a woman and as Chelsea. So we call her Chelsea. To do otherwise would be disrespectful. It gains nobody anything to continue using "Bradley" and is disrespectful to Manning. If you want to disrespect her, well, I guess that's your choice, but can you tell me why? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Seeing I am taking this as a potential personal attack I will be the mature one and walk away here, don't assume things about other people please, the name Bradley is being used in the majority of sources if you cant see that then it's your problem not mine. I think you are taking this to heart rather than editing and looking at the policies here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Bye! Nice talking with you. It's a shame you couldn't address my reasonable, if uncomfortable, question, though. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole: That's not a reasonable question; that's a loaded question. -- tariqabjotu 00:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

@Tariqabjotu: @Knowledgekid87:: Mmm. It might be seen as such; so, let me rephrase it. Continuing to use Bradley and he when the subject wants to be known as Chelsea and she is disrespectful of the subject. Continuing to use Bradley and he gains nobody anything, since everybody can find the article, regardless of the search term they use. So, the net effect of continuing to use Bradley and he is harm. That's how I see this. Can you tell me the good I'm overlooking that comes from continuing to use Bradley and he that outweighs the harm of disrespecting our BLP subject? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 05:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole: If Manning made a statement tomorrow that he now considers himself to be a golden retriever, and would like to be referred to as Rover, and would like people to use "it" as a pronoun when referring to him... would you argue that the title of this article should be Rover Manning, that we should change all pronouns to "it", and add a sentence to the lead that says "Rover Manning is a golden retriever." After all, that is what Rover wants, and it would be disrespectful of it to do otherwise. Obviously, that is a somewhat ridiculous analogy, but it is an equivalent circumstance. In both circumstances, Manning is asking to be called a different name, and he is asking to be referred to as a gender that is different from his actual gender. "Continuing to use Bradley and he gains nobody anything..." I disagree, it gains accuracy and clarity by referring to things as they actually are, not the way people want them to be. After all, this is an encyclopedia about facts, not Manning's personal diary. ‑Scottywong| confabulate _ 14:25, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

User:Scottywong. As far as the name goes, I disagree. If one of our subjects publicly announces they'd now prefer to be called Rover, the respectful response would be to call them that and arrange redirects and hatnotes accordingly (unless it's obviously ephemeral or frivolous - and there's no sign of that here.) Regarding the gender of the pronouns we use: when Manning says I'm a woman, she's not claiming to have a vagina or two X chromosomes; she's saying her gender identity is female, that she feels and responds as a woman. When a person feels and responds as a woman and desires to be recognised as a woman, I'm happy to recognise her as such. Gender identity often goes in lock-step with sex, but not always.

I acknowledge the existence and importance of your feeling self, that your manliness or womanliness is a part of it, that it is largely immutable, and that it is presently objectively unmeasurable (unlike a vagina, a hormone or a chromosome); and I'm happy to acknowledge you, the feeling you, for who you are, regardless of your anatomy, endocrinology or histology. YMMV. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

This isn't good logic, what if manning wanted to be known as "The baby killer" or "Jack the ripper" then? Do we follow suit? We as an encyclopedia go by what the media is calling this, and the name most widely used is "Bradley Manning" I understand if you have some personal feelings on this and what is right or what is wrong but it is what it is. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

But she doesn't, does she? She is simply announcing that from now on she wishes to be known as Chelsea. We don't deliberately and for no good reason insult our BLP subjects by calling them their old name when they've made it very plain that they've changed their name. Get over it. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose as per WP:BLP, WP:IDENTITY, and the subject's wishes. Lawsonstu (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. The precedent I'll go by is Sears Tower, which redirects to some name I never heard of but apparently is used. The newest name generally wins in article titling. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use the old name wherever appropriate, just that the article is "about" the newest name, and the person using an old name is the one who expects to be updated. I say "for now", however, because the media mentions are still under 50%, the change isn't legal, and so there is considerable reason to wonder if the change will ever really catch on. It was premature to move the article but it's pointless to move it back unless we see reason to think "Bradley" will continue to be the COMMONNAME. Wnt (talk) 17:26, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong oppose. As per the definitions of Transgender people, and as per Chelsea's declared wishes, the Chelsea Manning site should remain where it is. Hurtsmyears (talk) 17:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Putting other policies and guidelines aside for a moment, how did the R in WP:BRD get skipped? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears to me that the article was moved, protected, and now we're discussing whether to move it back to the title at which it has been stable for, what, years now? Aren't we missing something in between moving and protecting? V_oBEDD 17:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Support. It isn't a legal name change yet. If she gets a deed poll, fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonie148 (talk • contribs)

• Oppose. I can't say that I read all of the above comments, but MOS:IDENTITY provides that we should be using pronouns that accord with their expressed gender. It's true that as some pointed out that the name "Chelsea Manning" isn't a pronoun, so obviously that guidance is in some regard tangential, but really, it would be ludicrous to have an article "Bradley Manning" that exclusively used female pronouns. Furthermore, even leaving this issue to one side, I believe that we should not necessarily follow the majority of reliable sources with respect to this particular sort of naming issue in the BLP context. Maybe this is a POV thing to say, but I think that following the majority of media sources on this point just promotes systemic bias against people with gender dysphoria. A lot of people just don't understand and haven't thought about the difference between gender and sex, or what it means to be transgender. Furthermore, some media outlets do agree with us; the AP style manual says "reporters should use the name and pronouns preferred by a transgender person" (see here) and the press appears to be evolving on this one (see here; NYT has been removing male pronouns, for instance). Finally, what I personally believe is that, if someone identifies themselves as a female and says that they've felt as though they were a female since birth – which is exactly what the soldier formerly known as Bradley Manning said – then who are we to say "Wrong! You have a penis, so you're a man!" AgnosticAphid talk 18:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This move discussion is about an article's title change not about it's content. - 18:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Obviously, but you must have overlooked the fact that I already said "it would be ludicrous to have an article "Bradley Manning" that exclusively used female pronouns." AgnosticAphid talk 18:36, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support renaming to Bradley Manning per WP:COMMONNAME. AutomaticStrikeout (₵) 18:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• I want to seek a technical Support / return to original title. It's noteworthy, though, that different news agencies seem to go different ways (with most still using the legal name for various reasons - some explained, some not):
  1. CNN's video on Manning's statement stated that it will keep using the current legal name (about 1 min into the video)
  2. A New York Times blogger referring to the NYT's MoS which has provision to keep a newsworthy name against the subject's wish (Unless a former name is newsworthy or pertinent, use the name and pronouns (he, his, she, her, hers) preferred by the transgender person - original emphasis removed)
  3. Reuters uses the legal name
  4. ABC News reports kept the legal name usage as primary, but one of its opinion pieces supports the change
  5. CBS News also keeps the original legal name in use.
• NBC News clearly has switched to preferred name by Manning in multiple articles published since Thursday afternoon. I think it's best if it gets summed up by this USA Today article: Media torn in Manning 'he' or 'she' pronoun debate - Penwhale | 18:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is a redirect from her former name to here and to move/rename it a 4th time would serve no useful purpose. The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 19:07, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME, until consensus in sources and the public reflects a transition to Chelsea Manning. Also would support the use of female pronouns throughout the "Bradley Manning" article, reflecting WP:IDENTITY. On a side note, it is disturbing that so many editors have taken it upon themselves to act unilaterally in the moves of this article and are consistently assuming bad faith. NewAccount4Me (talk) 19:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. :: That she is "biologically" male is dubious as a categorical claim. She may have male genitals, but she has also been biologically determined to identify and act as a female in many ways. It's pretty clear to me that personal identification, particularly on a BLP, should trump wrongheaded notions of what we consider to be her "objective" gender. Steeletrap (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: This should have been handled by BRD, instead it was Bold, Revert, Bold, Lock. In fact, the right thing to do here is move it back to Bradley, and then have a 7-day discussion about moving it to Chelsea. But since that's not happening, the argument that it should stay at Bradley for now is first WP:COMMONNAME, since Bradley is common, and second that reliable sources are still treating Manning as "Bradley, who wants to be called Chelsea". I've heard two radio news reports (CBS and an AP report) in the last half hour, which are still calling Manning a him, that wants to be a her. I'm sensitive of the plight of the transgendered to gain acceptance, but this article is not your WP:SOAPBOX. It's supposed to be a collection of human knowledge, and at the moment we have a lot more knowledge of Bradley than we do of Chelsea. Livit⇑/_What? 19:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

  @Livitup and Vobedd: As both of you seem to have made similar points, let me point you to the logs for this page. Following the protection, it was moved back to Bradley Manning (citing the original move being undiscussed and controversial) but returned to Chelsea Manning citing BLP. It's unlikely it's going to be moved back to Bradley Manning for the duration of this discussion. -- tariqabjotu 20:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support The name should be Bradly Manning until such time that the name Chelsea becomes predominant in third party sources or it gets legally changed, if it does. The purpose of this article is to be useful, not to be written in a manner sensitive and pleasing to the subject. I find the tendency of opponents to put some Manual of Style paragraph and the wishes of the person involved (who is after all at this time a convicted criminal) above such core principles of wikipedia as neutral PoV and verifiability quite worrying. Ultimately anyone who isn't aware that Manning's lawyer just made a declaration about his gender might just stumble on this article and be completely confused about what the hell is going on and who the woman is. I'm not opposed to Bradly being referred as "she", "her", etc.. in the paragraph where his gender dysphoria is mentioned but if the article name is confusing that just makes it less useable and informative to anyone who is interested in the Manning case and not various editor's online activism. Helixdq (talk) 19:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: Redirect allows page to be easily found by users & as per MOS:IDENTITY arguments above. AnonNep (talk) 19:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose An uncomplicated case of basic human decency. I am not an expert on MOS:IDENTITY, WP:COMMONNAME or WP:BLP, but if any of these policies counterindicate a move to Chelsea Manning that is self-evidently a problem with the policy and not with the move. --April Arcus (talk) 19:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Like other I support this name request on a WP:COMMONNAME basis. What the individual themselves wants to be known as is largely irrelevant when it comes to establishing article titles (a la Snoop Lion vs. Snoop Dogg discussion from May). That is not to say the current baseline won't change in the future but Chelsea Manning simply isn't employed enough yet.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The rapidity of Misplaced Pages's response in moving the article to Chelsea is something to be proud of. Theodolite (talk) 20:27, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Vehement Oppose Not only does MOS:IDENTITY make it clear that we should go by the subject. Further, outside organizations instruct that we should identify the transgender individual as they want to be addressed (see GLAAD's document here). The case of a transgender individual is not at all in the same universe as the above supporter's comparison of Snoop Dogg vs. Snoop Lion. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY only addresses gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives in text; It does not cover article titles. Article titles are, as is stated in the policy, covered by other policies (Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles). It's a stretch to say MOS:IDENTITY covers this issue.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Until he/she gets a gender change they are still considered a male. Once that occurs then we should change it but not just based on the decleration that they want to be referred to as Chelsea. Kumioko (talk) 21:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

They have "changed gender" (Or more correctly, affirmed their gender) by the very fact they have said "I am a female." Perhaps you are referring to the genitals? Not that they matter to anyone bar her and any partners. --Dee Earley (talk) 10:46, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Per WP:COMMONNAME. Currently, the "Bradley Manning" name is more recognizable and natural. Unless and until reliable sources start referring to this person more often as "Chelsea Manning" than as "Bradley Manning", it is a WP:NOR violation to use the new name preferred by this person. Like it or not, Misplaced Pages should not be on the forefront of using the new name - we follow reliable sources with such changes, not lead them. We have no obligation to be more sensitive than the NY Times are any other mass media publisher. --B2C 21:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Notwithstanding the haphazard use of moves to and lack of discussion to get the page here in the first place, there are several good reasons why it should be at Bradley Manning. First, the vast majority of sources, including the trial, use his original name. If and when it becomes the standard for major news outlets to use his name directly as Chelsea Manning in something other than the direct context of his gender change, then I might begin to support such a pagemove after a reasonable amount of time for solid evidence and consensus. Further, there is concern that, rather than following news articles on style and gender pronouns here, media is following Misplaced Pages. Simply put, Misplaced Pages is not meant to be a leader, but a follower. This is not a criticism against Misplaced Pages, its the way any impartial encyclopedia must work, if it is to maintain its standard of impartiality. Activism and advocacy has its place and time, but it isn't here or now. SodaAnt 21:35, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Slightly depressing that it's actually necessary to vote on this. Formerip (talk) 21:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This is not voting and your contribution cites no basis or reasoning; it's WP:JDLI. --B2C 21:48, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
    • You're wrong on both counts. Like it or not, this probably will be treated substantially as a vote. The fact that it is slightly depressing to even need to debate the question is a valid rationale. However it might be dressed up, it boils down to a simple question to whether Misplaced Pages should respect a person's request regarding their gender identity. There are not two equally valid stances on that. Formerip (talk) 22:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
      • To even take primary source information like that into account would violate WP:NOR. Th editors of reliable sources should decide whether to respect a person's request regarding their gender identity - and WP editors should follow suit, just like we do on every other issue. --B2C 22:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• The status quo ante belleum should be restored, then this discussion should take place.Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support As long as in official documents his name is Bradley and the common use is Bradley as well, it should be on that name. Obviously the recent news related to his gender-identity announcements take that into account, but we'll have to see if all of the common use switches to Chelsea. So it is too early to decise yet; Bradley Manning until that I believe should be the choice. --Pudeo' 22:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support His/her name is legally and commonly known as Bradley Manning. I realize this is a very emotional issue for certain editors but Misplaced Pages is a resource not a platform. We would be doing a disservice to the readers by naming it any way other than using WP:COMMONNAME. --BHC (talk) 22:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Despite all the gender bending excitement in the last week, readers are still ten times more likely to be searching for "Bradley Manning" than for "Chelsea Manning", according to Google Trends. Antonio Hazard (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose, per GorillaWarfare, Sue Gardner, and others. -- phoebe / (talk to me) 00:26, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support reliable sources still call him Bradley. Hot Stop talk-contribs 00:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

In 1964, world-famous boxer Cassius Clay won the heavyweight championship from Sonny Liston, but soon joined the Nation of Islam, and the world quickly accepted new name "Muhammad Ali". For 50 years, that is how the world has worked. -Wikid77 20:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Bradley Manning is what he is known by to most people. Sources still call him that. Also he is currently still a male with that name. If that changes in the future, we can move back. We shouldn't at this point confuse users who are looking for information about this person. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY. -- LtGen (talk) 01:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support based on WP:COMMONNAME and the vast majority of reliable sources. Kelly 01:12, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per primary policy (BLP and related), as the subject clearly wishes to be identified as female and by the feminine name. Redirects and text will handle any resulting confusion. This illustrates WP's strength - this is a fluid medium, supporting older/dated language and links. Her preferences regarding use of masculine for administrative communication is a capitulation to rigid structures, not her desire generally. -- Scray (talk) 01:17, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • What primary policy? there is nothing on WP:BLP that comes out and says anything against the article title change to Bradley Manning, this and as per WP:COMMONNAME is the most widely used in the media. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:20, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY (a guideline), which has been cited many times above, is tightly related to BLP, the latter easily trumping COMMONNAME. I am confident that the spirit of BLP requires the current (feminine) title. -- Scray (talk) 01:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

MOS:IDENTITY which is yes a guideline has this in the lead, I have bolded the wording as it relates to the title move discussion: "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article." - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 01:58, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no controversy over the verifiability of her name, and her choice trumps (redirects handle the rest). -- Scray (talk) 02:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The move discussion is to change the title of the article or keep it the way it is, if redirects handle the rest then what is the harm keeping it as Bradley Manning with Chelsea as the redirect when the majority of media sources are using the term? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

The harm is that we'd be violating the spirit of MOS:IDENTITY and BLP. Enough, already, with the badgering. -- Scray (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for jumping on this, but why exactly does "WP:BLP trump WP:ARTICLENAME"? Many participants use this argument (or a similar one) during this discussion, but I have to admit that I can't see any primary/secondary ranking of the Misplaced Pages policies. Quite the opposite: When it comes to page names, then (obviously) WP:ARTICLENAME should be the first policy to be consulted.--FoxyOrange (talk) 05:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm certainly not an expert on policies generally or BLP specifically, but I believe that BLP is seen as a sort of super-policy because it has real-life implications in a way that most policies about encyclopedia topics don't. YMMV. AgnosticAphid talk 07:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Agree. The fact is he can request to call himself "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" if he wants, however, there is also a legal name changing process that must be gone though to change a legal name. The page should be reverted back to "Bradley Manning" until he requests that name change and it is approved by a judge Bwmoll3 (talk) 03:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• No, you're wrong. There is no requirement in the United States that a person go through any legal process to change their name. See our handy-dandy article on name change - common law usage-based name changes are entirely legal and acceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:19, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose due to MOS:IDENTITY open and shut case. Legality of name change is a red herring, such a public announcement suffices in some jurisdictions, not in others. What Manning's "real" sex is an ideological not biological issue. I happen to believe "female" based on neuro-anatomy which I believe defines identity, but others can reasonably differ. Zoe Brain (talk) 04:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support. Although I find the trans-phobic comments in support of the move pretty reprehensible, I have to admit that COMMONNAME and the principle of least surprise leads me to conclude that the article name should be "Bradley Manning" for the foreseeable future, while the article content should unambiguously use feminine pronouns and the name "Chelsea" in compliance with MOS:Identity. VanIsaac_{WS Vex} 05:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. Per MOS:IDENTITY, we should certainly acknowledge that Chelsea is a woman, and given that we seem to have a media broadly recognizing her right to her female name (yes, some still call her Bradley, but her actual name is established in the media), WP:COMMONNAME seems less-than-decisive, and using WP:IDENTITY to acknowledge the name she explicitly told us to use seems the appropriate approach. On another note, Jesus Christ some of these comments are transphobic. Yes, she has a penis; that's one of the inconvenient aspects of being a pre-op trans woman. Yes, the US government is likely to ignore whatever official requests she tenders, because they are backwards on these sort of things always. She is still a woman, and Misplaced Pages should not veer into trans-hate for the sake of the news outlets and governments that have not internalized the message. An Editor With a Self-Referential Name (talk) 05:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Not particularly happy with the support mind you but as I was thoroughly smacked around with when I first got here the policy is what is important not my personal beliefs. WP:COMMONNAME and Article Titles are more clear cut and BLP and the MOS:IDENTITY have tenuous options at best when you talk about the title (though they do explicitly say changing the gendered pronouns and nouns so I am all for that.) The more common title and search indication should reflect what this individual is known for, in this case it is the wikileaks federal prosecution case, and that is under the title of Bradley. Nothing else this individual has done (including the statement of gender identification) meets Notability and therefore we should use the name that is associated with that notability. Now if that notability starts linking to Chelsea I will be the first to jump up and start saying we need to change the title to reflect it but until that point I don't see it as being supported by policy as they currently stand. I would suggest someone make a request to change the policies (such as BLP) to include title name and see if that gains consensus as a work around but right now this doesn't meet the requirements. Tivanir2 (talk) 05:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support. Manning's celebrity is based on his activity as a male; changing his identity is rewriting history. It's as bad as changing British names late in life to add pompous and pretentious titles. Manning's own statement was to apply from this time forward, and made no suggestion of retroactivity. So, if there is to be a Chelsea Manning article it should only apply to events taking place after her public statement. Eclecticology (talk) 06:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - Can you point to any other person on Misplaced Pages whose life is divided into two completely separate articles based on their gender identity? If not, why are you suggesting that we start doing this with Chelsea Manning? Do you propose that we do the same for every other transgender person with a Misplaced Pages article? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. WP:IDENTITY is pretty clear on this one; transgender people, including Manning, should be identified as their latest expressed gender self-identification, which extends to their names. It seems like a lot of the support !votes reflect a poor understanding of trans issues; it's not like she's going to change her self-identified gender back within the week, so the "premature" argument doesn't hold weight, and the people who are arguing that she hasn't changed her legal name/hasn't started hormones/etc. don't seem to really understand the transition process and how long it can take to get to the various steps. TheCatalyst31 07:09, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. As Sue Gardner correctly pointed out earlier, MOS:IDENTITY is unambiguous in requiring that WP "reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification." We went through this already with the Wendy Carlos article. Wendy refers to those who refuse to refer to her as Wendy as having "cruel indifference to anyone's interests but their own. They have tried to turn me into a cliché, to treat me as an object for potential scorn, ridicule, or even physical violence by bigots (no joke in these dangerous times of beatings and deaths at the hands of the intolerant.) At best, they have arrogantly used me and abused me to grind their own prurient axes, to profit by and justify their own agendas. It's no fun to discover someone else's fetishistic hang-ups, to inadvertently confront an unsuspected slice of unwholesomeness in another. Even less amusing is to find yourself the target of painful bigotry and prejudice. have caused me to wince involuntarily, and in some cases to spend sleepless hours at night. While I have never harmed or hurt any of them, they have chosen to hurt me. Is this deliberate nastiness, or just wanton insensitivity? Couldn't you wait until I'm dead? Have you no decency, no respect?" While this is clearly an emotional outpouring by someone who is deeply hurt, she makes a good point. I realize that this will generate a fair number of "please don't question the motives of those who disagree with you" responses, but I haven't seen any valid reason why so many here want to give Chelsea Manning the same shameful treatment that Wendy Carlos was subjected to. It's just wrong. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:51, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Having the page named Bradley Manning would not be refusing to call her by her chosen name (which would of course still be acknowledged in the lead), or subjecting her to ridicule because of her transgender status. It would only be Misplaced Pages fulfilling its role, as reflecting the way others have approached this issue. If the case is or becomes that media outlets come under fire for refusing to use the name Chelsea, and that causes controversy and talk about the attitudes that represents, then that would warrant inclusion in the article. But it wouldn't change the fact of her WP:COMMONNAME being Bradley Manning. Even if it's "Bradley Manning, known since August 2013 as Chelsea Manning, is a United States Army soldier..." U-Mos (talk) 10:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME, simple as that. If we want to be wikilawyers, we can also argue that MOS:IDENTITY is a guideline, while WP:COMMONNAME is policy, and that would be enough (Speaking of guidelines, I'd also throw in WP:SURPRISE, to support moving it back). But very simply, that's the name more than 90% of sources and readers know her. I surely do hope that sources slowly and steadily begin to refer to her by her new name, and that we can revisit the issue in 12 or 24 months. For now, if we want to provide a reasonable service to readers, better bring it back at Bradley Manning. --cyclopia 10:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • If we want to be a Wikilawyerly, it would only be fair to point out that the policy in question uses language like "Misplaced Pages prefers", "Misplaced Pages does not necessarily", "Editors should also consider", "are often avoided", and "are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding". Compare this with policies such as WP:V, which uses language like "Even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it" (emphasis in original) and "All material in Misplaced Pages mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable." I'm just saying. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support per WP:COMMONNAME policy. Echoing above, that's the name 99% of sources and readers know her, period. Cavarrone 10:48, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think MOS:IDENTITY is all the more important when dealing with gender identity and particularly when dealing with primary naming; naturally it applies to article names just as to references within articles. While WP:COMMONNAME might seem to indicate the move, it is a rapidly decreasing factor; this is 2013, and society generally now accepts changes of gender identity happen and are real. The more reliable of sources are coming into line. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose on grounds that a person's declared identity is a special case and should follow WP's last-publically-declared-identity stance along the same lines as use of gendered pronouns. In other words, unlike most statements made on WP which require a weight of reliable sources, determining an identity should require one RS documenting the assertion of identity (of course barring absurd assertions like "I am Elvis," with the obvious unresolved caveat w.r.t. who determines absurdity). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smowton (talk • contribs) 12:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose simply because there is nothing to lose by changing the article title for the time being. Let's just move on people Badanagram (talk) 12:53, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I think it is reality being really harsh towards Manning, and WP should reflect reality. I think it is wrong to argue that "we should respect Manning's wishes" Misplaced Pages cannot change reality, even if it is hurtful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by General Staal (talk • contribs) 13:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • This argument is based in ideology rather than Misplaced Pages policy. Please educate yourself about trans issues before blithely declaring that Manning's gender is not real. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
    • I am confused. Since when do trans issues and beliefs dictate policy on Misplaced Pages? Nobody is saying his gender isn't real. He has a penis, prostate and testicles. He is male. He can call himself an astronaut if he wants, but until he flies in space, he isn't actually an astronaut.yonnie (talk) 04:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Nope, not how it works. Bearcat (talk) 08:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Care to elaborate instead of making a useless, vague comment? yonnie (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Split (edit conflict) Two articles, one Bradley, one Chelsea. Bradley article covers events through and including the announcement with male pronouns, Chelsea article covers events including the announcement onwards with female pronouns. Each article links to the other. Once we're done pretending that Misplaced Pages is a newspaper, maybe we can have a merge discussion. This move was most poorly done, in my opinion, and we ought to give bd2412 T a mountain of thanks for stepping forward with a proper move discussion. htom (talk) 13:57, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Would the latter topic be notable enough to warrant an article? Manning is known for their actions as a (former) Private First Class by the name of Bradley who leaked certain documents, and not for any actions done whilst he assumed the name of Chelsea. If there is a split, how would you justify the existence of an article for the second topic? --benlisquare_T•C•E 04:18, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Notabilty would be inherited, as they're the same human being. At the moment, the Chelsea article would be short; as the appeals grind on, it will grow. htom (talk) 17:11, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support move back to Bradley Manning per policy section WP:COMMONNAME which says, "Misplaced Pages prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural." --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose move. Our BLP policy exists to prevent harm to living article subjects. That's what it's for. It's puzzling to me that users arguing COMMONNAME aren't even acknowledging that there is a conflict with other policies, let alone the fact that BLP frequently overrides other policies because of its goal of preventing harm to the subject. The argument that users won't be able to find the page they're looking for is extremely weak, since that's what we've always had redirects for. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you give the excerpt from WP:BLP that applies to this case? Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:14, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"The possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment." --WP:BLP --Guy Macon (talk) 14:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

What harm, exactly, does this article title pose to the subject? It's a name Manning went by three days ago but now no longer wants to; that's all. -- tariqabjotu 15:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

This is rather easy to explain. If someone holds a position because of COMMONNAME, they would of course acknowledge that there is a conflict with other policies. If, on the other hand, they hold a position for some other reason that they would rather not admit, then they would look for a policy justifying their position, find COMMONNAME, and act as if none of the conflicting policies exist. its a pretty standard method of identifying a stalking horse. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:10, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a clear failure to assume good faith. Many supporters, as noted, do not believe any policy contradicts COMMONNAME here. Some have argued/pointed out that MOS:IDENTITY deals with pronouns, not article titles (in fact, the guideline says Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article.). Please don't ascribe ulterior motives to anyone. -- tariqabjotu 15:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Guy Macon, Thanks for the excerpt from WP:BLP. Unfortunately, the excerpt you gave was slightly misquoted because you capitalized "The" at the beginning when it is not a sentence by itself. Here it is along with the rest of the sentence from policy which gives the context,

"Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives: the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment."

So I think that this part of WP:BLP does not apply to our case and I continue to support the move back to Bradley Manning. If you have any other excerpts from WP:BLP that you think apply to this case, I would be interested in seeing them. Thanks. --Bob K31416 (talk) 15:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I suggest you reconsider your statement that someone being transgender is a "titillating" tabloid story. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:35, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

That isn't a restricting clause. In the English language restricting clauses have a different syntax. It also fails the sniff test; clearly we do not want to limit the harm to be considered to those specific situations, but rather any harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. To do otherwise is simply evil. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you're going beyond what policy says. However, I am interested about what harm you think would be done to Manning, or what harm Manning suffered in the past when the article was titled Bradley Manning. The question regarding what harm would be caused was posed to you previously by Tariqabjotu, but you didn't mention anything about harm in your response. Would you care to try again? --Bob K31416 (talk) 17:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I will take a crack at the question about harm. Recapping: BLP says the possibility of harm to living subjects must be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This matters because BLP trumps COMMONNAME. (I am setting aside the question of MOS:IDENTITY for the purposes of this comment.)

It is reasonable to believe there's a possibility Manning could be harmed by Misplaced Pages retitling the article Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning, because she made a formal announcement explicitly asking that "starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun." Misplaced Pages is an important site: the #5 most-popular in the world, read by a half-billion people every month, more widely-read than any other news or information site. If Misplaced Pages were to call its article Bradley Manning, Manning might believe that Misplaced Pages is rejecting her requested name and/or gender characterization. It is not uncommon for people who feel dissonance between their experienced gender identity and the gender they were assigned at birth to feel significant emotional distress, at least some of which is due to how they're treated by society. (See this article.) And indeed, in Manning's May 2010 chat logs she describes herself as having GID (gender identity disorder), as having had three breakdowns, as being "in an awkward state," "uncomfortable with my role in society," "scared of being misunderstood" and "isolated as fuck." She says: “i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…” I think it's clear that Chelsea Manning hopes and expects that people will use the name and pronoun she asked them to, and that to the extent people do not, they risk causing further trauma to someone who is clearly already significantly distressed. Sue Gardner (talk) 03:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

That seems like quite a stretch. And actually, you shoot yourself in the foot. You quote Manning saying "I wouldn't mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me... plastered all over the world press... as boy..." So... are pictures of Manning as, by most people's observation, a boy or a man also violations of BLP? I sure hope not. Either way, even if we were responsible for people misinterpreting what it means for something to be the title of an article, Manning is going to spend the next thirty-five years in a maximum-security prison, where, presumably, there is no Internet access; Manning will probably never experience the trauma of seeing a Misplaced Pages article with a title against one's wishes. -- tariqabjotu 03:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Sue, thanks for your thoughtful commentary. I absolutely agree that the WORLD should, ideally, comply with Chelsea's request. But what if it doesn't, and in a years time, most outlets are back to calling her Bradley? I know Jimbo has argued for a bit of "editorializing" on this, and has proposed IAR in order to keep at Chelsea. IMHO, wikipedia should not LEAD the pack, or even necessarily be on the bleeding edge. We should follow the pack, and come in late to the party - otherwise we risk being a cause of citogenesis, and, by our actions, changing the way the world talks about and names things - that should not be our role - we are supposed to be neutral documentarians. There is reason to believe that there are LOTS of things in wikipedia articles that could cause harm to subjects that we righteously keep - for example, mentions of crimes they've committed, or indiscretions, or even minor things like birth dates (see recent Tammy Duckworth RFC, where, in spite of Duckworth's request, oodles of editors voted to add her birthday to the article). Another great example is Burma and Ivory Coast - both of these were subject of much debate, but have ended through consensus at what are seen to be COMMON english-language titles (which personally I don't agree with, but that's the way those cookies crumbled). In the case of Cote d'Ivoire, the government has formally requested, on several occasions, publicly, that the french name be used, but not all American/British media has followed suit, and since we follow media, we have "Ivory Coast" (but thankfully, we still have Costa Rica and not Rich Coast!) We risk offending millions of citizens of those countries, and officially pissing off their governments, but I don't see intervention from WMF on these matters. What I fail to understand is why TG people merit such a special exception to our article titling policy - I understand and agree with the pronoun issue, but the title is their to affirm to the user that they have arrived in the right place - so we need to balance that UI requirement for the user with the possibility to hurt the feelings of a BLP. A screenshot on this page demonstrates the silliness of the current article - when viewed on a mobile phone, the words "Bradley Manning" appear no-where on the first page - in spite of the fact that Bradley Manning is still searched 100s of times more frequently by Google users. Why would we not accede to Cat Steven's (30-year old) rename, or any of the other examples that have been trotted out - and the reason is, the article title and the article is first and foremost for the reader (while balancing BLP needs of course). The only way I can see implementing your ideas at scale is to say, there is a new change to the BLP policy, ONLY for trans* people - as soon as they announce a new name, the article is moved immediately - and it doesn't matter what reliable sources do (because if we do this, we should do this for everyone, not just Manning). But I don't think we should add such an exception, and I don't think the argument of harm to Manning is very strong in this case, especially if the first line says in bold "Chelsea Manning, (born Bradley Manning)" etc and clearly states that her preference is to be Chelsea and "she". Calling that "harm" is stretching the definition a bit too far, and equates the article title with the subject's legal/official/desired name (which is categorically not the case for other bios, and is also not what the article title MEANS). If we're so concerned about harm there is much lower and much harsher hanging fruit we should be going after - imagine if instead of this epic debate, people were removing unsourced bullshit from our hundreds of thousands of BLPs, or de-ghettoizing them in their categories, or any number of other things that are rampant and vicious (I'm sure you remember our friend Qworty and the damage he did - which is STILL not cleaned up fully). But an article title? We should be late on this, not early, and we should follow what the world does, and we should balance concerns for the BLP with concerns for our readers. If the world itself doesn't come to a clear conclusion, then we'll have to make a call, of course, but it should be informed BY reliable sources, not by a normative sense of justice. I just don't think it's our job to be progressive in these matters.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 04:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP does not apply, WP:MOSIDENTITY deals with pronouns not article titles, in fact it says in there to refer to policy when it comes to article titles. Are there any other arguments that people can make to keep this as Chelsea other than WP:ILIKEIT and "Its the right thing to do because I think it is wrong" type of comments? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 15:59, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose per Nick, Scott, and Slim (in alphabetical order :) Plus, like Anthony pointed out, there are now plenty of reliable sources. Also, this. Draco 14:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. I think GorillaWarfare, Phil Sandifer, SlimVirgin, AJF, Sj, Bearcat, and User:Sue Gardner provided recommendations based on wisdom and a considered understanding of policy. So many additional well-written statements that it feels redundant to reiterate the same. Appreciate all comments made, but I oppose based on our BLP policy, as well as MOS:IDENTITY. I would also agree with Mark Joseph Stern in the Slate article, when sharing his opinion regarding our approach in changing this article to reflect Manning's identity. This time, we got it right. Cindy(talk) 15:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - MOS:IDENTITY says a bunch of interesting things, but it can be changed, especially given that there is easily 10 times more input to this page than there has ever been to that MOS entry. My reasoning is based on the fact that this article covers this person during the period when they were a man named Bradley. While I take no issue with the way they wish to live their lives, I believe the reality here is that they ARE one thing, but IDENTIFY as another. Whether that identity is true, part of an ongoing series of self-discoveries, or a self-delusion due to an inability to connect well with any gender identity, it is still all contained within Chelsea's mind. In time, as the world around her (read:Not just the hardcore acceptance group) comes to adopt this new identity, this issue should be revisisted. However, the rush to be the first kid with their hand up is what led to such a blow-up. - Floydian  _¢ 15:21, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. The GTrends link posted below by IRWolfie- is the key factor - as of this month, the ratio of searches is 100:1 Bradley:Chelsea. WP:IDENTITY will of course affect how it is addressed within the article, but not the name of the article. Misplaced Pages does not need to be in front of the pack on this, we are an encyclopedia and report what others are saying. Currently that is the male name. There is also precedence for this, Cat Stevens comes to mind initially and I could list many others. If, over time, the trend changes, we can address that then. GregJackP Boomer! 15:38, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Why would you disregard other policies such as MOS:IDENTITY ? Pass a Method talk 16:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring WP:IDENTITY, as I noted above. WP:COMMONNAME is the more applicable policy, IMO. GregJackP Boomer! 17:11, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose as moving back to Bradley would be POV pushing to make a point and we arent here to do that but to build an encyclopedia. Thanks, ♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 16:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Please see: (WP:POVNAME) Bradley right now is the WP:COMMONNAME. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 16:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Actually, Chelsea is the commonname because WP:COMMONNAME says that when a name changes, "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change". You should only count neutral sources dating from 22nd of August forward. Pass a Method talk 16:43, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
      • @Pass a Method: See my response to you in #WP:COMMONAME and then the section #References to Manning in sources. Because this move was done so quickly, there was no basis to judge that Chelsea is the common name; there were no sources calling the subject Chelsea outside the context of the gender identity announcement. From the very few sources dated since then, though, it looks like Bradley is still leading. There is no reason for you to continue assuming, repeatedly, that every time someone references WP:COMMONNAME they're talking about sources prior to the announcement; it applies even for sources after the announcement. -- tariqabjotu 16:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support for three reasons: first, procedurally, because the page move the "Chelsea Manning" was a controversial move made without even attempting to obtain consensus, and such fait accompli maneuvers should be reversed until a contrary consensus is reached; second, because COMMONNAME is a substantive standard which, for encyclopedic content, should override stylistic standards; third, because, as the executive editor of the New York Times said in yesterday's paper, "we made the judgment readers would be totally confused if we turned on a dime overnight and changed the name and gender of a person in the middle of a major running news story. That’s not a political decision. It is one aimed at our primary constituency — our readers." The same principle should govern here; Manning's gender issues are at best a peripheral concern, unrelated to Manning's notability and most reader's interest in the matter. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support because that's what they're known as. --TripleU (talk) 19:30, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Support - Just because (s)he has shouted to be known by some other name does not actually mean that (s)he is actually a transgender. Had (s)he been more vocal at an opportune time, (s)he might have saved the world of some idiotic espionage in recent history. DebashisM 20:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose rename as Bradley, per WP:MOSIDENTITY and dozens of wp:RS sources using the name "Chelsea" even in headlines, many quoting her stating, "I am Chelsea Manning, I am a woman". Keeping name Chelsea will also help focus pronouns as 'she/her/hers', after months of knowing she identified as trans. There are 50 years of precedents: in 1964, world-famous boxer Cassius Clay won the world heavyweight championship from Sonny Liston, but soon joined the Nation of Islam, and the world quickly accepted new name "Muhammad Ali". Within weeks, it became bizarre, awkward to use the former name "Cassius Clay" and his famous youngest daughter (of 9 children) uses the name "Laila Ali" not Clay. -Wikid77 20:00, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Not pleased with how this move went down. That said, now that we're at this discussion, I figured I'd wait to see what the most recent reliable sources say, and many of these use "Chelsea" like The Guardian (here as well), as well as The Daily Mail, MSNBC, Rolling Stone, HuffPo, Salon, and the Chicago Tribune. That, on top of The MOS on an individual's preferred identity, I am unconvinced that citing WP:COMMONNAME on its own is a sufficient reason to move it back, even if some sources continue to use Bradley. Yes, WP:COMMONAME is a policy, and I agree with it in principle. So is WP:IAR, and if the size of this discussion is any indication, WP:COMMONNAME is getting in the way of us being productive in this specific case. I, JethroBT 20:47, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
  • WP:COMMONNAME applies:

CNN Still using Bradley Manning (News article made 30 minutes ago from this post)

Boston Herald (News article made 18 hours ago from this post)

USA Today (News article made 6 hours ago from this post)

Fox news (News article made 14 hours ago from this post)

BBC still referring him to Bradley (News article made 14 hours ago from this post)

All recent sources calling him Bradley Manning. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:31, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

CNN piece-- This provides no support for your claim.

The National Lesbian & Gay Journalists Association (NLGJA) issued guidelines for reporting on Manning's transition, advising journalists to "use the name and pronouns that someone prefers," citing AP style and suggesting "that she be referenced as 'U.S. Army Private Chelsea Manning, who formerly went by the name Bradley. (emphasis mine)

The issue of pronouns and gender identity resurfaced this week when Army Pvt. Bradley Manning announced his intention to transition from male to female in a statement signed "Chelsea E. Manning."-- Neither this or the above quote is evidence of CNN calling Manning by either name, and the later is referring to the chain of events and using Bradley is necessary to describe the change.

Boston Herald - The Boston Herald is a tabloid newspaper, so this isn't exactly reliable on issues like this one.

US Today - This is an editorial piece, not something we can use to establish WP:COMMONNAME.

Fox News- The Army won't pay for Private Bradley Manning to become Chelsea Manning is the only sentence that uses Bradley. It doesn't call Manning one or the other definitively here. Later on, they quote the ACLU which calls him Chelsea. None of this supports your claim.

BBC Article - Y

So, you've got one legitimate article that actually names the subject as Bradley, that's almost a day old. This is unconvincing, and my and many others' points about the MOS still stand. I, JethroBT 23:44, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

In fact, I'm not even really convinced that WP:COMMONNAME is going to help us arrive at an answer. It's an unhelpful policy for determining the subject's name in this situation. I, JethroBT 00:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Excerpted from my previous post (with apologies for the clutter; I've been away for some time and am a little rusty / didn't notice that there was a vote brewing):

I get that I'm probably the last person anyone wants to hear about Manning's gender identity from, but that's the nice thing about Misplaced Pages - the last person you want to hear from is still someone you may have to hear from.

As a realpolitik-loving, pragmatic kinda person, my gut reaction to the issue of the name change was similar to that represented in many posts prior "Oh what, if someone wakes up one morning and decides to identify as (whatever), that's notable & verifiable?"

But upon a second or two of longer consideration, that's not the case here. Manning being trans has been a matter of discussion for years now (which is partially my fault - sorry ;x) so while the name change is sudden, the concept is not. Instead, the question of Manning identifying as female has been a consistent and unwavering detail throughout this entire affair. Certainly during the trial the preference was that references be made using the male pronoun, but that's a rather split hair - asking to be formally referred to as one thing doesn't imply that the identification has changed. It's more of a "Let's not make an issue of this just now" sorta thing.

So given the aforementioned, this isn't a case of sudden whimsy. It's a longstanding conviction by a notable subject who was under no obligation to express a firm preference at any prior point. Moreover, having your legal counsel read a prepared statement on national TV isn't quite an arbitrary expression of opinion - it's probably the firmest way you could say something short of skywriting or full page ads in The New York Times.

/Legally/ the name remains Bradley Manning. But all things considered, at this late date the legal name carries less weight than the preferred one, and unless Manning makes an additional change at some future point, can probably be deemed permanent. With musicians or performance artists electing a stage name (which I know isn't exactly fungible here, but bear with me) some amount of acceptance in circulation may be needed in order to acknowledge it; in this case the name has been imprinted onto the public consciousness just as fully, but by other means. Why quibble?<<

The point at which a discussion such as this one becomes more about internal bylaws and less about providing timely and relevant information is the point at which discussion is no longer all that useful. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia first, and a place to bicker about technicalities second.

— User:Adrian/zap2.js 23:39, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose I believe that any gender references should be applied after the date of the announcement, lest the changes give the impression that the events were performed by a woman which changes the nature and character of the conversation. Srlevine1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose Per WP:BLP and MOS:IDENTITY. Thatbox (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Support, <redacted per BLP> MOS:IDENTITY is irrelevant. He didn't know what he was saying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Psychologicaloric (talk • contribs) 00:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• I have redacted a portion of the above comment per WP:BLP, as it was an entirely-unnecessary and hopelessly-inappropriate personal attack on the article subject. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• I note that Srlevinel, Thatbox, and Phychologicaloric are all accounts that haven't been active in 4+ months, and all 3 accounts have less than 20 edits (counting deleted contribs too). - Penwhale | 13:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support, as he's more commonly known as Bradley, at least until he gets a legal name change. Jackmcbarn (talk) 01:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per MOS:IDENTITY and WP:BLP, and the arguments of Sue Gardner, Blue Raspberry, GorillaWarfare etc etc. Steven Zhang 01:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose it really is a matter for the transgendered subject to make. And for anyone to claim that Manning was "in a state of psychosis when he decided he was Chelsea" and that "He didn't know what he was saying" is not doing their research, is being very insensitive and perhaps even outright insulting. I had reverted the mention of the gender issue back before it was clear that the subject did identify as a female and that they had made a public declaration. This isn't a political or social issue...its personal. If the subject identifies, not only in regards to gender but to name as well, it is a part of the transformation. Since Manning is in Federal Prison it is unlikely that they will receive the gender reassignment surgery (although it is possible as there is some word that the state of California may allow this eventually), but I do believe that the hormone therapy has either begun or been requested to deal with this medical issue, which this is considered by the US government federal system I do believe.--Mark 01:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. A transgender person should be referred to by the gender the person truly is, as substantiated by WP:RS. The Guardian, for one, has also used female pronouns to refer to Manning, and has used her new name, as well. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 02:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • There are plenty of sources listed in this discussion that use the term "Bradley" - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:42, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • The gender that Bradley Manning truly is, is male (until he undergoes sexual reassignment). A person may assert their gender to be anything but the true (true meaning actual, as in what physically exists in the real world and not exclusively in the conceptual sense) gender which they actually have in reality is that of their biological sex. Walterego (talk) 10:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
    • This has been said around a dozen times here, but Walter please read Sex_and_gender_distinction for the distinction between (physical) sex and (psychological) gender. The essential idea here is not accurately describing the person's genitals as a matter of fact, but accurately reflecting their chosen identity as a matter of etiquette. Chris Smowton (talk) 10:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I remember discussing the exact principles floating here, in a slightly less contentious manner at the RM for Talk:Laura Jane Grace. Participants of this discussion would have been better acquainted with propriety had they respected that a consensus for best practice had already been hammered out. Also notice if you are so compelled that in the midst of similar arguments, no homophobic labels were applied and no users were faced with AN bans or similar sanctions. :) John Cline (talk) 02:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Seems like the guidance for what to do in an article when someone declares their gender and name change should be covered specifically in a policy, to avoid any more of these types of long discussions in the future that seem to involve armies of editors, whose time might be more productively spent editing other articles. --Bob K31416 (talk) 03:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose moving back, on balance. Reasonable arguments can be made either way, but enough sources have made the change, and policy favours self-identification; together, these factors tip the scale. Andreas JN466 04:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support moving back for procedural reasons (the move to Chelsea Manning was not vetted) and per WP:UCN (use common names). Misplaced Pages follows what reliable sources use. (And MOS:IDENTITY says nothing to contradict that.) While usage may shift soon, it hasn't happened yet. Good luck to the admin who closes this one. —  AjaxSmack  05:35, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Reliable sources have already begun referring to her as Chelsea. While MOS:IDENTITY does not speak of article titles, it seems common sense that referring to "Bradley Manning" as "she" would be, at the very least, awkward and confusing. To fully comply with MOS:IDENTITY, the title needs to be changed. I don't see any point in reverting the article title if we're just going to use Chelsea anyway. The initial, bold move seems legit to me. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:50, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support Manning is notable for actions undertaken when he was Bradley. The lead makes no sense now since it says Chelsea was convicted, but Bradley was convicted and the refs say so. Changing the whole article to use female gender and the chelsea name is just awkward. A subsection indicating the desire to be referred to as Chelsea makes more sense. He is not legally Chelsea, are we going to change the title again if he decides he wants to use the name Tammy next week? --Daffydavid (talk) 06:58, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support Manning is indeed "notable for actions undertaken when he was Bradley". The article should only used "she" and "Chelsea" for actions undertaken before his announcement. We just cannot write things like "she was raised as a boy", "she joined the army...", "she gave documents to wikileaks", etc : it is just too confusing and IMHO unfortunate. I have no doubt that Manning's personal journey is something serious, which I respect ; but writing the article like that just makes him/her look silly. I don't think we want that. Jean-Jacques Georges (talk) 10:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose The first line of the article can simply clarify the change to avoid confusion. --Lyo (talk) 13:21, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support as the actions for which Manning is famous (the leak, arrest, detention, trial) were carried out as "Bradley Manning". Manning's actions as "Chelsea Manning" have not eclipsed these. McPhail (talk) 14:24, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I think move a like this, which was bound to be controversial, should have been discussed and a consensus reached before the change was made. Chris Fynn (talk) 15:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: We should just wrap this up early per WP:SNOW: there isn't a snowball's chance in hell that any persuasive new rationale is going to come out in the remaining time. If we're not doing a poll (and if we are, I support per commonname & resistance to the original violation of policy involved in the peremptory move), then we should just close up the shop and let the admin team decide.  — LlywelynII 17:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I disagree with wrapping it up early. WP:SNOW applies to debates where one side is definitely going to win and the other side has no chance of winning. That is not true in this case. In this case both sides of the debate seem fairly evenly matched. Cutting off the debate early could lead to Wikipedians complaining that they didn't have enough time to participate in this debate. It would be best to just let the debate last until it is scheduled to end so nobody will be able to complain that they were excluded from the process. --Yetisyny (talk) 20:55, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support: Nobody knows (or cares) who "Chelsea Manning" is. "Bradley Manning" is most well known for the release of documents to Wikileaks and subsequent trial. LionMans Account (talk) 17:34, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: If she identifies as Chelsea, that's where the article should be, with a thorough explanation in the lead. Dralwik| 17:36, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • If he identifies as Yusuf Islam, that's where the article should be. Oops, it's at Cat Stevens. Oh! So we follow usage in reliable source to decide titles, not how the subject identifies! Got it. Do you? --B2C 02:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
    • A simple name change is a far different thing than a sex change to match gender. So I'll clarify: if a transgendered person identifies as gender n, the article should identify that person as gender n. Reporting a transgendered person's gender by their birth sex can be seen as an active rejection of their transgendered nature, a potential insult that doesn't come into play with "only" name changes. Dralwik| 03:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support: Support per WP:NOTABILITY and multiple widespread sourcing. Manning chose to identify as a male when he enlisted in the Army. Manning became notable for his actions while identifying as a male. This WP article was created because of his notable actions as a male and the article title should reflect the name Bradley, which he chose to identify himself as, at the time of his actions. Now that he has chosen to identify as a female, that choice too has become notable and should be covered in the article.-- Isaidnoway (talk) 17:38, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: Basic human decency requires that we do not continue to use Chelsea Manning's old name, given the real distress it would cause her (supporting evidence: the chat logs with Lamo in which she says that having her male persona splashed across the media would be nightmarish). Misplaced Pages does not exist in a moral vaccuum, and an encyclopaedia should not contribute to the making nightmarish of a mentally vulnerable person's life. 7daysahead (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

As far as the effect on Manning, Misplaced Pages's title is negligible if it is based on what the prevalent name used in the sources are. There's much more chance that in prison Manning will be seeing newspapers, etc, instead of this Misplaced Pages article. And if Manning does see this article in prison, it is only one article compared to the many articles or TV programs in the media. Manning's real distress will be from being imprisoned for at least 7 years. --Bob K31416 (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The precise quote you mention is actually:

i wouldn’t mind going to prison for the rest of my life, or being executed so much, if it wasn’t for the possibility of having pictures of me… plastered all over the world press… as boy…

So, it seems Manning prefers that pictures as a boy or a man be removed. Should we honor that request? Is it our place to remove File:Bradley Manning US Army.jpg from the article? (Or this and this, released by Manning's own family?) Wouldn't that be the right thing to do, for the sake of 'human decency'? No, probably not. And this is why our policies are not governed by doing what subjects want (and why we request that people not write about themselves). -- tariqabjotu 18:26, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

There is a very real difference between "what subjects want" and "what will cause distress". I suspect that you are not transgendered, and I invite you to do some reading about the subject: it would make this talk page a lot easier for you to understand. Bob's argument ("other people will cause distress, so wikipedia should not worry about whether it causes distress") holds no water (and neither does their bald assertion that Manning will be more distressed by prison than being forced to present as male). 7daysahead (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't patronize me or insult my intelligence. I need not be transgendered nor read whatever advocacy materials you want me to read for my comment to be relevant. You mentioned those logs as reason to have the article at Chelsea Manning, and I pointed out that what Manning actually wants is for pictures as a boy excised from media attention. We are not compelled to give into that demand, however you choose to describe it. -- tariqabjotu 19:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Tarigabjotu, this is a red herring -- nobody is arguing for removal of the photo on the basis of the chat logs. The photo is a historical document of how Manning lived and represented herself at a particular moment in time, and assuming it's presented as such personally I don't see any issue with it. What's under discussion here is how Misplaced Pages should frame and represent Manning *today*, in the present tense --- that's why the article title, pronouns and first name matter. The chatlogs are simply evidence that Manning will experience distress if she is misgendered publicly, after having made it clear she is female.

I also reject Bob K31416's argument above, that any distress Misplaced Pages causes Manning doesn't matter because she might not see the article, and/or the pain of prison will be worse. An argument that hinges on Misplaced Pages being irrelevant or unimportant is doomed out the gate. And, from an ethical standpoint, any pain we risk causing Manning needs to be considered independently of pain caused to her by others. Sue Gardner (talk) 19:49, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

For reference, here's my original remark that Sue Gardner is commenting on, "As far as the effect on Manning, Misplaced Pages's title is negligible if it is based on what the prevalent name used in the sources are. There's much more chance that in prison Manning will be seeing newspapers, etc, instead of this Misplaced Pages article. And if Manning does see this article in prison, it is only one article compared to the many articles or TV programs in the media. Manning's real distress will be from being imprisoned for at least 7 years." --Bob K31416 (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time understanding how this is a "red herring". 7daysahead said s/he believes the article should be at Chelsea Manning because the previous name would cause the subject distress, as evidenced by the chat logs. Full stop, no further detail. That may not be your argument, or the arguments of most of those supporting the name Chelsea Manning, but it was 7daysahead's, and that is who I was responding to. I am pointing out that the chat logs actually refer to pictures as a boy or a man, not seeing the name "Bradley Manning". And yet, as you said, of course, no one has suggested removing those types of pictures. If 7daysahead is going to take this approach, he's going to have to explain why s/he feels human decency is needed for the article name, but why it's not (and has not been, and likely will not ever be) afforded for other aspects. As you can see from the logs, to Manning, those photos are not "historical documents", but reminders of a life Manning doesn't want to be presented, much like -- presumably -- the name Bradley Manning. -- tariqabjotu 23:31, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

At the moment no one is suggesting that we remove those pictures, and that is not this conversation. The article title is more likely to cause distress than the photographs on display. This is a red herring. (Briefly, I would support updating the article if more up-to-date photographs were to become available.) 7daysahead (talk) 08:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly Support: Bradley Manning is a traitor and convicted felon. He will be spending the majority of his (redacted) life at Fort Leavenworth, which for those of you who don't know, is hell on earth where they send (redacted) like Manning to make big rocks into little rocks all damn day long. Why are we wasting time and making a mockery of this article by trying to 'comfort' Bradley Manning or 'make this transition easier on him?' Where he's going, the last worry he'll have is the pronouns they use to address him. And this is just beside all of the basic logic and reasoning that says he is a male, has always been a male, and likely always will continue to be a male and the WP has just bought into one of the lamest PR stunts in recent memory. Has everybody opposed to this moved forgotten that he is a criminal??? IFreedom1212 (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • I am going to assume good faith, and therefore assume that you merely forgot that have already registered a "support" vote in this discussion. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Funny, I thought the word "freedom" in your username meant freedom of self-expression like in gender identity. But now I notice your username reads "IFreedom", so I guess that only applies to your laughable arguments here. I don't even know where to start. Why, for instance, do you get an ideological monopoly on what constitutes "basic logic" on gender? How is this PR stunt? Why is it at all relevant that Manning is a criminal? If you want to dig your hole deeper and respond, you are certainly welcome, but what you really need a is a heavy dose of imagining others complexly. I, JethroBT 21:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
    • You can't self-identify your own gender just like you can't self-identify your own species. Bradley Manning still has a Y chromosome and you can't make that up. The 'basic logic' behind it is that he has a penis and the only reason his gender is being brought into question is because of his own words and actions. Actions and words which should be given far less consideration because he is an enemy of the state and has been shown to act recklessly and without careful thought in the past. That's why his conviction is relevant. IFreedom1212 (talk) 01:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
      • You can't self-identify your biological sex. Gender identity, on the other hand, is something entirely different. Your failure to understand this fact does not make it less of a fact.
      • Also, by what means do you know that Bradley Manning has a Y chromosome?
        • I honestly thought this was a joke at first. All males have Y chromosomes. Bradley Manning is a male, therefore he has a Y chromosome. IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
          • Apparently you've never heard of XX male syndrome, XY gonadal dysgenesis & Intersex. Have you conducted a blood test on Manning to know what chromosome makeup she has? KTC (talk) 07:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Your POV that Manning "is an enemy of the state" is entirely nonsensical in the context of Misplaced Pages and has no bearing on this issue. An enemy of which state, defined by whom? NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Uhm, the state?? United States v. Manning IFreedom1212 (talk) 02:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
          • Whose state? Not everyone on the English Misplaced Pages is an American. Nor does every American view Manning as an enemy. Regardless, the fact that she has been convicted of a crime does not give anyone on Misplaced Pages carte blanche to reject her gender identity, mock her or otherwise degrade her. She is entitled to human decency on Misplaced Pages just as every other living person is. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose: Transgendered persons ought to be referred to by their preferred name and gender pronouns. To do otherwise is transphobic. This is in keeping with Misplaced Pages's MOS:IDENTITY policy for how transgendered persons are to be identified on this wiki. And most news organizations and reliable sources have already started calling Chelsea Manning by her new name. Most of the arguments in support of moving back to Bradley Manning, such as claiming there aren't reliable sources to back up the name change, are red herrings. --Yetisyny (talk) 20:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Support - To the military he's Bradley Manning. To common usage he's Bradley Manning. To the prison system...well that'll be something to see. This article title should absolutely be at Bradley Manning. In the first line of the lead, assuming the gov't recognizes a legally changed name, that's where one would place Chelsea E. Manning. Nowhere else. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
• Comment - I have already expressed my support above, but I have noticed that a lot of people here are citing BLP as a reason for opposing the move back to Bradley. BLP basically states that the article can't have anything negative that is unsourced. There are a lot of sources that still refer to Manning by the first name Bradley, so even if you do consider using Manning's legal name to be a negative statement (which is really a stretch even without sources backing it up), BLP would still not apply here because there are many sources that still use the name. --PiMaster3 22:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Sources since the name change, you mean? (Remember that the redirect from Bradley Manning still works.) - David Gerard (talk) 22:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes, that is why I said still use. What does the redirect working have anything to do with whether or not there is a BLP violation? --PiMaster3 23:43, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
  • You're mistaken if you think BLP only says we can't have anything negative that is unsourced. BLP also prevents undue weight being put on sourced negative material and other things. In terms of the wider issue, there's already been so much discussion concerning BLP that I don't think there's anything useful to say about the applicibility of BLP. Nil Einne (talk) 23:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
• I oppose reverting to the "Bradley" name Chelsea was very clear of her intentions and even stated, and was printed in leading newspapers and on national television, "I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility)." As she is a living person Misplaced Pages must respect her wishes. Shezthemann (talk) 08:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: As others have noted, the move to Chelsea was premature and should have awaited fuller use of that name in reliable sources (see WP:COMMONNAME). A parenthetical statement in the lede about her preferred name would have sufficed until then. On these procedural grounds I support returning the article to Bradley, but by the time this discussion is closed, I expect the preponderance of sources using "Chelsea" will make this point moot. Subsidiary comment: The personal opinion of many here is to accept her self-identification out of human decency, because gender is more complicated than genitals and chromosomes. But, for the sake of Misplaced Pages, those opinions are academic and immaterial: we generally have to go by what the aggregated sources say, not by what's right. --Rae (Talk | Contribs) 05:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with everything you've said there, but my sense of inertia prefers not to do a temporary move that I reasonably expect will need to be undone shortly, even to revert a premature move. It is unpleasant to "reward" people for having a hair trigger on the Move button, but when we've acknowledged they probably will be right soon enough, might as well let them get away with it. Wnt (talk) 22:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. As I've already noted in other comments, making acceptance of a transgender person's chosen name conditional on her compliance with further conditions (complete the legal process, have the surgery, etc.) is not acceptable — for starters that's a higher burden of proof than we place on any other celebrity who happens to change their name, and even more importantly both her legal records and her medical records are covered by privacy laws and thus her completion of those tasks will never be properly verifiable. (What's our test going to be? She can't be "Chelsea" until she personally uploads a photograph of her groin to Commons to prove that she doesn't have a penis anymore? That's ridiculous and invasive, obviously, but what other evidence can we possibly ask for if "have the surgery first" is our standard?)

Furthermore, no other type of person on Misplaced Pages is subject to any requirement that we must necessarily lock the article into their legal birth name, regardless of any other titling consideration — and thus imposing that as a unique rule that is binding only on transgender people is a clearcut act of transphobia.

COMMONNAME is also not a compelling argument, because that rule explicitly states, right in its own text, that there are sometimes legitimate reasons to privilege another name over one that's technically more common — so the question becomes, why should a transgender person not be one of those cases? And COMMONNAME also explicitly says that sources published after a name change count for more than those published before — so leaving aside for the moment the fact that there's already been a documentable shift, it still needs to be asked what volume of new sourcing has to be provided before people will be satisfied that the balance has finally tipped over to Chelsea instead of Bradley? Is it 100 articles? 1,000? 10,000? What's the number? Or is it going to be, my real suspicion, a moving target which always consists of "some unspecified number of additional sources beyond what we have now"?

And if the argument is based on "Chelsea" being a violation of POVNAMING, then you have to face the reality that "Bradley" also poses just as much of a POVNAMING issue — because it also represents a POV assertion about the validity of her identity change. So if there's no wholly NPOV naming option available, then in a BLP you've got to err on the side of the subject's dignity. As I've said elsewhere, the only appropriate, WP:BLP-compliant way to write about a transgender person is to accept her chosen name and gender identity. BLP requires us to write our articles with sensitivity, and paying mind to the possibility of harm to living subjects. While it's true that media outlets vary in how well they adhere to these principles, virtually every media style guide of any reputability whatsover (AP, Canadian Press, GLAAD, etc.) advises that a transgender person's chosen name and gender identity must be respected without condition — doing otherwise is inherently causing harm to the subject, and violating WP:NPOV by casting judgement on the validity of her gender identity. The fact that a few readers might be a little bit confused, furthermore, is covered by the fact that "Bradley" is still in place as a redirect — so people are not going to fail to get here because they typed the wrong name into the search bar, and given the volume of media coverage her announcement has been getting I sincerely doubt that there are five people left in the Western world who are going to be surprised.

And furthermore, our WP:NPOV rules themselves require us to evaluate the POV of the sources, and to deprecate sources that are being inappropriately biased or non-neutral in their presentation of the story. We do not, for example, cite stuff to sources that use prejudicial terms like "faggot" or "n-word". And any outside source that fails to use Chelsea instead of Bradley, once she's announced that her preferred name is Chelsea, is itself committing a POV act — the very act of discounting her stated name is a POV statement in and of itself — which means that if we're really serious about following NPOV properly, we have to accept that as of August 22, 2013, any source that still uses "Bradley" instead of "Chelsea" is, by definition, not appropriately neutral enough to even be considered at all. There is only one WP:NPOV way to write about a transgender person, and that is by her preferred name and gender identity — any source that still calls her "Bradley" once she's announced that her name is Chelsea is committing a biased, non-NPOV act. No matter what their reasoning is — deliberate transphobia, unintentional ignorance of the correct practice, simple laziness, whatever — the doing of it is an act of anti-transgender bias. And we simply cannot make it Misplaced Pages policy that we deprecate clearly biased sources in every case except when the bias is an anti-transgender one.

So simply put, for all of those reasons I have to take the position that the article's proper and correct title is Chelsea. Bearcat (talk) 08:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Who decided what "the correct practice" is, why do they have authority, when did they do it? People keep implying that there was this big meeting and we all decided what "the correct practice" is, I think I missed that meeting, does someone have the minutes? CombatWombat42 (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

You don't get a say in what is or isn't correct practice in writing about any identity community in which you do not have a direct personal stake. There was no obligation for "we all" to have been part of the decision; in exactly the same way as is true for racial and ethnic groups, LGBT people, and their doctors and therapists and other people with a direct stake in the issue, get to make that decision unilaterally. You're certainly not obliged to follow if you don't want to — but you don't get a right to dictate that your preferences override those of the affected parties, or to decree that nobody else is allowed to call you out on your decision, or to question what is or isn't correct practice. You certainly have a right to follow either correct or incorrect practice in your own life — but you don't get consultation rights on which practice is the correct one. Bearcat (talk) 19:07, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, when did all people with a direct stake have a meeting and where are the minutes? How do you know I don't have a stake?CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

GLAAD's Media Reference Guide; AP Style Guide; any acceptably WP:NPOV book at all on transgender issues. And incidentally, the process of establishing consensus on matters like this does not require that every single transgender person personally attended a meeting with posted minutes and a unanimous vote at the end — it's allowed to happen through the exact same sort of social processes (literature, one-on-one conversations, political activism, appeals to basic human decency, etc.) that contribute to the evolution of any other social or cultural convention. And as for how I know that you don't have a personal stake in the issue, you wouldn't be taking the positions you're taking if you did. Bearcat (talk) 19:19, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Does GLAAD represent all people that have a stake? I was not informed. 2. AP does not meet your defention of "having a stake" so why do you refrence them? 3. What position have I taken? 4. If I have taken a postion why is it impossible to have that position and have a stake? CombatWombat42 (talk) 19:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. Yep. 2. AP reflects the established practice, and is thus acceptable for consultation purposes. 3. & 4. Agreeing that it's ever appropriate to give a transgender person's birth name precedence over their chosen one, or to disregard their own stated gender identity, are not positions which a transgender person would ever typically take. I suppose it's theoretically possible that there might be a few transgender people out there who do disagree, but that's implausible enough to belong in the "I'll believe it when I see it" category — and even if such people did exist, the established consensus of most transgender people would still prevail over the opinions of one or two fringe dissenters. Bearcat (talk) 19:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. We both know you are incorrect, but you obviously don't want to argue. (Fair, but I'm going to assume it's because you realized that I was going to be right and you wanted to head the off at the pass) 2. Resonable point, but still against your argument. 3. When have I ever "Agreeing that it's ever appropriate to give a transgender person's birth name"? 4. So "minority"/"fringe" oppinions don't count? CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

1. GLAAD most certainly is the final authority on what is or isn't discriminatory or biased language when writing about LGBT topics. They don't have to be the universal representative of all LGBT people on all possible LGBT issues whatsoever — but they are the Supreme Court on this. 2. Nope, not against my argument. People outside the identity community are allowed to be cited as authorities on what the consensus is, if they are correctly following it — as an outside party, the only thing they're not allowed to do is override it with their own alternative rules while still being accorded equal weight. 3. You've been arguing for the move back to the old name; that, by definition, is giving her old name precedence over her current one. 4. When it comes to the question of what Misplaced Pages should or should not reflect, if they can't be well-sourced as significant minority opinions that have a weight of credibility behind them then indeed, no, they don't count. Bearcat (talk) 20:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Alright, you are clearly so incapible of seeing your own logical fallicies that it is no longer interesting to try to get you to understand that there is no consensus on this topic and for you to keep claming that there is is driving people away from your arument. We need to have a rational discussion about this topic without either side making appeals to authority or personal attacks. I really am on the fence about the issue, but the fastest way to drive me to one side is for the other side to falsely claim that the matter has already been decided in their favor. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope, no logical fallacies at all. I've acknowledged all along that not everybody in the world actually follows the correct practice in writing about transgender issues — but that fact does not mean that there isn't an objectively correct practice. When writing about any identity community (race, ethnicity, sexuality, etc.) which is subject to bias and misrepresentation concerns, the correct practice is always to follow that community's own internal consensus about what does or doesn't constitute biased language about them. This is not some special privilege that we extend exclusively to transgender people — it's the standard practice that should be followed for absolutely any identity group (racial, sexual, ethnic, gender, whatever) that is known to be subject to biased or discriminatory language and unfair media misrepresentation.

You certainly have the freedom to disregard that practice and continue to use derogatory or biased language if you wish — but you do not get to deny the fact that there is a correct practice, which is supported by a valid, properly documented consensus of the only people who actually get to have any say in the matter of what is or isn't correct practice, and you don't get to claim immunity from other people calling you out on your language choices. But if you want to be perceived as fair and respectful and polite and unbiased, then there's really no other way besides accepting that the group being written about gets to be the arbiter of what constitutes unfair or hurtful or discriminatory language about them. Bearcat (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

"there is a correct practice" No way. There is no "correct" or "incorrect" when it comes to journalism. There are no binding standards; there are no punishments for breaking with the rules; there is no enforcement. In short these expectations are not rules. They are opinions. It's analogous to the difference between Misplaced Pages essays and policies; some may strongly support an essay but we ultimately follow policy. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes way. Journalistic outlets certainly retain the freedom to be incorrect about it if they choose to be, but there is an objectively correct way to write about an identity community (racial, sexual, ethnic, whatever) that is known to be subject to hurtful, discriminatory or biased coverage — and that way is to respect what those communities tell you about what constitutes hurtful, discriminatory or biased coverage of them. You can still disregard it if you really want to, but you are not being WP:NPOV if you do. Bearcat (talk) 21:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Please tell me where WP:NPOV states that we must follow the style guidelines laid out by minority communities. Let's not refer vaguely to very tightly-worded Misplaced Pages policies; please be specific. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:NPOV unequivocally prohibits us from using discriminatory or biased language. So since minority communities are themselves the only acceptable authority on what constitutes discriminatory or biased language about them, who else would you propose that we even listen to? Bearcat (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I certainly see where you're coming from and I personally agree that we should follow the standards set by the groups and the people themselves. Just as we should follow Chelsea's pronoun preference we should theoretically follow GLAAD's guidelines when referring to LGBT people. However that is my personal belief and I would not foist it upon Misplaced Pages. Others who have deeply-held personal beliefs think theirs are equally valid. Hate groups, for instance, may feel very strongly that we should do the exact opposite of GLAAD. What I'm saying is that we fundamentally disagree about who has authority on media coverage; you think pro-LGBT groups do, while I think anti-LGBT groups / LGBT-neutral groups also have authority. WP:RS requires us to weigh the options. If there comes a time when journalistic organizations are united in referring to LGBT people in a truly sensitive way, we can follow their lead. But that time has not yet arrived. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we can't write about the existence of anti-LGBT or racist or anti-trans sentiment; as much as I may hate those things, they do exist and are legitimately notable topics. But what we can't do is write that Metta World Peace and Sean Combs are "n-words", or Elton John is a "filthy faggot", or Ellen DeGeneres is a "f*cking dyke", or "Bradley" Manning is a "man who thinks he's a woman", and on and so forth, just because some people might prefer to see them described that way instead of with neutral terminology. We can talk about the existence of anti-LGBT or racist or anti-trans beliefs in the appropriate articles; we just aren't allowed to use anti-LGBT or racist or transphobic terminology as objective descriptors in our articles about those groups or individual people who belong to them. That's all I'm saying. Bearcat (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

In terms of our personal views we're so very close. But I just don't view GLAAD as being the only source of note, as much as I support what they're doing. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you just compare titling the article Bradley Manning to calling black people the n-word? Or gay people faggots? Unbelievable. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

It is comparable, because it is discriminatory to discount a transgender person's chosen name. And in case you aren't already aware of this, I am a gay man — so I most certainly do have authority to speak on whether a point of language usage is or isn't comparable to calling me a faggot. Bearcat (talk) 22:56, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I was aware of that, as it's on your userpage. And it may lead people to wonder whether your advocacy efforts, and your inability to see how misguided your concept of neutrality is as it applies here, might be motivated by your sexual orientation. But I didn't bring that up because your sexual orientation shouldn't be a reason for people to diminish your views, nor should it be a reason -- as you have done -- to prop them up. Likewise, I will not take the easy route by matching your tenuous appeal to authority with one of my own based on my race, sexual orientation, religion, or membership in any other group that I have chosen to not broadcast loudly on my userpage but you apparently have chosen to guess for convenience. -- tariqabjotu 23:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Mmmmm, yeah. People are actually trying to use her, right on this very page, as a platform for waging war on the very concept that the recognized medical condition of gender dysphoria even exists, and I get the rap for "advocacy efforts" for arguing against biased and discriminatory and non-NPOV language? That's really kind of rich. Bearcat (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Um, everyone else? Neutrality means considering the opinions of all groups and weighing them accordingly, not listening to just one group and ignoring everyone else because they don't suit your point of view. That's basically the definition of neutrality. There are reliable sources (including the AP, which you claimed immediately started using Chelsea) that continue to use the name "Bradley Manning", and you seem intent on diminishing them to "wrong". -- tariqabjotu 22:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I said that AP's style guide states what the proper practice is; the fact that not every AP publication is actually following it yet does not negate the fact of what the style guide says. And neutrality means that we also have to take the POVness or non-POVness of the sources themselves into account: we do not accord equal weight to all possible sources, but in fact routinely deprecate sources that can be demonstrated to be portraying the story in a biased or inaccurate way. Bearcat (talk) 22:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I covered that; as I said, considering the opinions of all groups and weighing them accordingly.As noted below, the New York Times, the Independent, the BBC, and Reuters have used the name Bradley Manning. Are they also POV sources? And I'm struggling to find the non-POV sources (The Huffington Post? No. Salon? No.) that have switched over to Chelsea Manning. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Even a generally reliable source can still cover a particular story in a way that precludes that specific article from being cited in an NPOV encyclopedia. You have to review the potential bias of every individual story; a broad sweeping judgment based solely on who's publishing it is not sufficient. Bearcat (talk) 23:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Your remarks are beginning to suggest that you're motivated by advocating for minority groups, rather than adhering to our policies. While advocating for minority groups may be admirable, Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be used for that purpose. -- tariqabjotu 21:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Er, no. People on this page have denied the proven medical fact that gender dysphoria even exists at all — that's an advocacy position. Arguing that her status as a convicted criminal should invalidate her right to even receive medical treatment for her condition at all is an advocacy position. Respecting people's right not to be subject to hurtful or discriminatory or biased language is a simple human dignity position, not an advocacy one. Bearcat (talk) 21:44, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The fact that others might be using Misplaced Pages for advocacy doesn't mean you aren't. You argued that minority groups should be the arbiter of what is hurtful, discriminatory, and biased. That you cited our neutral point-of-view policy in the next sentence shows your lack of self-awareness. -- tariqabjotu 22:14, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Using hurtful, discriminatory and biased language is an NPOV violation. Bearcat (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Again, "hurtful, discriminatory and biased" are utterly subjective. What's hurtful today to a certain group may be acceptable to another; what's hurtful today may not be so tomorrow. CaseyPenk (talk) 22:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Bearcat, if your idea of neutrality decided by one group were really true, discussions like this one would have ended differently. The rules shouldn't change because the group is this one. -- tariqabjotu 22:50, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm talking about points of language usage in a WP:BLP about an individual member of an oppressed identity community. I'm not an expert in, and have no opinion on, how the Muhammad cartoons controversy should or shouldn't have been handled — but they're not the same thing as the matter at hand. Bearcat (talk) 23:10, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support moving the article name back to Bradley Manning for now. In essence it's been decided that an established policy WP:COMMONNAME should be overruled and that anyone who wants to abide by the established policy is somehow prejudiced towards the person. Either the clearly established policy should be adhered to or it should be changed (along with WP:NPOV) to reflect the new political reality. Editors should be castigated for their adherence or otherwise to Misplaced Pages policy, not for their (presumed) views, unless Misplaced Pages starts censoring views as policy. My suspicion is that the references to Bradley Manning will become rarer and this will simply default to Chelsea, but I am uneasy about the precedent of break the rules if it matches the political views of the majority of admins that is being set here. JASpencer (talk) 09:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

COMMONNAME is not being overrruled; COMMONNAME itself states that there are valid reasons to choose a technically less "common" name sometimes. It explicitly allows for exceptions right in its very own definition of itself, and it is not "violating policy" to treat a situation as an exception to a policy that has room for exceptions written right into the policy itself. As well, COMMONNAME explicitly says that when an article topic changes their name, any decision about which name to use has to give more weight to post-name change sources than it does to pre-name ones — and that shift is already happening in the sources. (And as I've said before, calling a transgender person by anything other than her publicly stated preferred name is, in and of itself, an act of anti-transgender prejudice. You may not have deliberately prejudiced reasons for doing so, which is why I've always taken the utmost care in this discussion to respect the difference between labelling the argument and labelling the person, but the act of not respecting a transgender person's public statement of her name is a prejudiced thing to do.) Bearcat (talk) 16:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Compromise: since "Chelsea" seems too controversial, let us rename this person "Peyton." Torquemama007 (talk) 12:08, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Torquemama007, as best as I can tell yours was a sarcastic remark. Please correct me if that is not the case. CaseyPenk (talk) 21:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support I am not as heavily swayed by the argument that we should wait for SRS or some kind of 'legal name change.' I do understand the draw; they provide a single, verifiable way to determine a persons gender. They are also arbitrary, unverifiable, and ultimately irrelevant (we are not tied to the United States government, so why do we care so much what they think?)

I am, however, swayed by the "Golden Retriever Problem"- if Manning said "I'm a golden retriever, and my name is Rover", would we accept that? Of course not. It would be an inappropriate value judgement to say in this case that Manning has such definite control over his name, yet in other cases ignore obviously spurious 'name changes' - without violating NPOV, how could we make a judgement?

(Breaking in the middle because your post is extremely long). Could I ask you to read the very short essay Misplaced Pages:Gender_identity? It answers your question. Briefly, there is no accepted medical condition which leads people to identify as dogs, the only treatment for which has been consistently shown to allow that person to live as a dog. Your argument has been given several times on this talk page. 7daysahead (talk) 15:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The answer at the essay you provided was "Coming out as trans can not be dismissed as an arbitrary or irrational decision. It is a deeply personal decision recognized and supported by mental health professionals."

I feel the answer is hand-waving. It is an appeal to authority; that authority may be qualified to diagnose Manning with GID (or whatever, I think the name of the disorder may have changed.) but that authority does not necessarily carry over into how we otherwise present Manning. To wit, a doctor could advise Manning to use to a feminine name, but that does not in and of itself rename Manning. Manning is only renamed to the extent that the new name is recognized at large. I do not feel the essay addresses this concern. OSborn _contribs. 16:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Also: what counts as "obviously spurious"? Harpo Marx? Screaming Lord Sutch? Nate Dogg, Bow Wow, or Snoop Dogg? "Chelsea Manning" seems pretty sober and sensible by comparison. --GenericBob (talk) 01:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The difference is those names have been generally accepted by reliable secondary sources, but the name "Chelsea Manning" has not been accepted in the same way. OSborn _contribs. 01:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The claim that there would be some sort of BLP violation or harassment seems ridiculous. If we're harassing, then what are the news organizations (such as, I understand, AP) doing? As to BLP, the three main issues are NPOV, V, and OR. I do not see NPOV as being an issue considering the continued use of the name "Bradley" by many news organizations. As to Verifiability, there is no question there. As for OR, it seems to me the "Chelsea" supports could be conducting their own Original Research by synthesizing that the subject of the article's name is Chelsea, without that being supported first by reliable sources. The rest of BLP seems to deal with the privacy of the subject, but that is not relevant here because the name "Bradley" has already all over the news.

The title "Chelsea Manning" is (potentially) confusing to many readers. Readers not familiar with the case will be surprised to find an article named "Chelsea..." when they typed in "Bradley..." I suspect they could even navigate away from the page, if they know the subject to be male, yet the article is, at a first glance, about a woman.

To reply to Bearcat, above, if it is POVNAMING in either case, I find it to be a legitimate option to simply defer to reliable sources. I have not yet seen a meaningful analysis of how different reliable sources handle this issue. I do not believe we are impacting the tone of the article or dignity of the subject. The simple truth is that Manning has not used the name Chelsea at all (AFAIK) until very recently. As to gender identity, if Manning has been consistently identified as male by all secondary coverage until now, how are we creating an 'unduly negative' article by reporting that? In addition, my understanding is that the AP has not transitioned to using the Chelsea name.

I think I read an editor claiming that "Bradley..." would hurt the ' cause' which is, I feel, a very poor argument in this context.

I think Rae, above, makes a good if unfortunate point.

OSborn _contribs. 14:30, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

As I explain here, we should use information from reliable sources at the right level. Normally the choice of that level doesn't matter; a pile of molecules that happens to be a Zebra won't be interpreted as an Elephant by someone else. In this case the problem is that the primary information about Manning's gender identity issues leads to a different conclusion about her gender when we use our policies compared to some newspapers. Count Iblis (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

"Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (WP:SOURCES) indicates to me that we should prefer secondary sources over primary sources, in general. (I find our guideline at MOS:IDENTITY problematic, as a 'special process' for transgender, and only transgender persons.)

Although I may not entirely understand what your argument is; we don't really have "policies" on this sort of thing. Our policies, in my experience, have been to neutrally present available, reliable information. Any guideline on content is simply a summary of how to do so. I think the essay WP:TRUTH also supports my argument. OSborn _contribs. 15:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but the issue with primary/secondary sources has more to do with wanting to have a solid review of the primary facts that reflects current scientific consensus about the topic. But in general, you have some source and different levels of information exists in the same source. E.g. in case of a crime, you can have many reliable sources that agree with each other on the factual issues, but they differ on whether or not to call the perpetrator of the crimes a criminal. We can then easily bypass this problem by focussing on the facts on which there is then no diagreement about from these reliable sources and use our own BLP policies to decide whether or not the responsible person should be called a criminal or not. Saying that "X is a criminal" is higher level information than saying that "X has commited acts Y and Z". Our policies may e.g. compel us to refer to X as a "suspect", even if most sources use "criminal". Count Iblis (talk) 15:25, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

To clarify your analogy, if "X has committed acts Y and Z." (and Y and Z are criminal acts) then by definition "X is a criminal," not "X is a suspect." "X is a suspect" if "X has been accused of committing acts Y and Z."

My understanding is that the situation you are referring to would be a BLP violation partly because it could expose the WMF to litigation. (From what I understand.) In this case, there's no judgement call of "Manning is a criminal." AFAIK IANAL this isn't a situation where Manning could litigate (not that we should only do things under threat of litigation...) and so isn't quite the same in that regard.

Anyways, we would never make-up a term for someone, we would only use verifiable information. Clearly, we don't go for the most extreme information; we avoid being inflammatory. This is the other part of not calling someone a criminal. But I don't really see the 'presumption of innocence' factor as leading us to use the newer name. I think the "Golden Retriever Problem" I mentioned above explains this. The big question I have is "why do we not extend skepticism to Manning's own statement?" OSborn _contribs. 15:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

There is, as has already been pointed out above, no such thing as the "Golden Retriever Problem" when it comes to transgender issues. Gender dysphoria is a real, recognized medical condition, which has substantial medical research behind it to confirm that transgender people really do have physical brain structures that are consistent with the target gender rather than the one that would be consistent with the kind of sexual organs they have down below — and the only known treatment for that condition is for the person to undertake some form of transition into living as the target gender. You don't have to understand how it could be medically possible for that to happen — but it is.

There is, however, no recognized medical condition in which it's possible for a human being of any gender to actually have a dog's brain inside a human body — there are certainly disorders in which it's possible for someone to think they're a dog, I won't deny that, but there are no known medical conditions in which it's possible for that belief to turn out to be true, or for which the only treatment that even exists at all is for the person to actually switch over to living as a dog.

So until medical science finds a a real medical disorder which lifts "I'm a golden retriever inside" out of the realm of psychotic delusions and into the realm of things that could actually be true, the "Golden Retriever Problem" is not a valid analogue to gender dysphoria. Bearcat (talk) 16:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the "Golden Retriever Problem" is not the best argument to make here, but on the other hand I think that we still do not have to change the article title. Misplaced Pages has not always respected the wishes of the subject with respect to their identity. We have declined to move Jay-Z to Jay Z, for example. Edge3 (talk) 00:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see how taking or not taking a hyphen out of a name that's still fundamentally the same otherwise really tells us anything either way about how to handle a person who comes out as transgender; as I've pointed out elsewhere, there are numerous other articles where we did respect the subject's wishes by moving the article right away upon a name change announcement — and that's the standard that's always been considered the precedent for transgender people. Bearcat (talk) 01:10, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

We also have not moved Snoop Dogg to Snoop Lion. Edge3 (talk) 02:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I bring up the "golden retriever problem" as an analogy for someone simply declaring their name to be something different. I'd like to clarify, as I think it may be misunderstood, that I am not drawing an analogy with regards to trangenderism per se. The point of the analogy is that the subject has simply announced a change in name and that change in name has not been generally accepted. I realize now this may have been a distracting analogy.

As I answered above, that Manning has been advised to change his name does not seem specifically relevant. We summarize reliable sources, and my understanding is that reliable sources have not transitioned to "Chelsea" in a way as to trigger such a change. OSborn _contribs. 01:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I respect the arguments in opposition, but the move was premature, the subject of the article is still most widely known as Bradley, and Chelsea is not yet prdominant in new reporting. I support the use of Chelsea/she, etc. within the body of the article.Skyraider (talk) 16:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support this individual is morphologically, chromosomally, and most important legally still male. of particular note is that at the time of his enlistment and service, from which springs his entire notability and notoriety, he was male. until 8/22, 100% of the news coverage was of 'bradley' manning. while i am a liberal on the issue of gender politics, this seems to me an unnecessarily pov sop to the lbgt community, and a kowtowing to political correctness.Toyokuni3 (talk) 19:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Legal status is irrelevant to the question of what a person's gender identity is or isn't, and you are making an unverifiable assumption about her genetic karyotype. There are real, documented conditions within the transgender spectrum in which a person can have male sex organs while actually being chromosomally female — so unless you have Manning's DNA tests in your personal possession you have no way of verifiably knowing whether she's chromosomally XX or XY. Bearcat (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose In danger of appearing to be WP:WL, I think a certain amount of the legal dispassion needs to be applied to this argumentation. WP:BLP is a broad policy, one which relies on MOS:IDENTITY in order to interpret properly. The most specific direction in this case comes from MOS:IDENTITY and we have discussed it ad infinitum here. The bottom line becomes that "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns ..., pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life." There is no clearer statement of direction available to us in the style guides or the policies. To refer to any person who has expressed a different self-identification as their birth gender reflects an inherent bias against their choice, regardless of the intent used when crafting said reference. Because of this fact, there is no clear position that reflects WP:NPOV, and as such, WP:BLP dictates that we follow the course charted in MOS:IDENTITY and use the proper nouns, gendered pronouns, and possessive adjectives that respect the choice of that individual.

Furthermore, some people have questioned the change on WP:V violations, attempting to steer the conversation in their favor. I believe this argument to be specious in the extreme. WP:BLP is explicit about acceptable sources and one of those is documented in WP:SELFPUB. Chelsea Manning's declaration about her gender self-identification satisfies completely and utterly the requirements of WP:SELFPUB and, as a consequence of this fact, WP:V.

When you strip the emotion from the conversation and look at it from a purely facts-based perspective, the decision to move the page to Chelsea Manning and replace the male-gendered pronouns with their female-gendered equivalents was not only correct, but needed to be accomplished rapidly in order to satisfy the Damoclean Sword of WP:BLP. My 2c. QuackCD (talk) 20:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

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What a bunch of nonsense. So, a man simply walks up, announces that, from now on, he wants to be addressed as a woman, and his name is now such and such. Seriously, is that how someone changes their gender? What about their citizenship? Marital status? Has everyone here been so cowed by BS terms like "transphobia" that we lost our marbles? WeldNeck (talk) 23:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

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