Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:19, 30 August 2013

Did you know ...

... that Wagner's Götterdämmerung (Twilight of the Gods) (scene pictured) premiered on 17 August 1876 at the Bayreuth Festival as part of the first performance of the Ring Cycle?

Opera Portal DYK Archive (by topic) • Opera Project Talk DYK Archive (by date)

Archives – Table of Contents
Archives – Alphabetical Index

Article creation and cleanup requests

Article requests

In a now archived discussion about List of operas performed at the Wexford Festival, GuillaumeTell suggested that the following conductors/directors/designers really ought to appear in Misplaced Pages. I'm copying it here for editors who may be interested in creating these articles:

• Conductors – Maurizio Benini, György Fischer, Arnold Östman, Evelino Pidò
• Directors – Jean-Claude Auvray, Anthony Besch, Robert Carsen, John Cox, Peter Ebert, John Fulljames, Stefan Janski, Keith Warner
• Designers – Charles Edwards, John Stoddart, Joe Vaněk.

Per this discussion

• Peter G. Davis (critic and opera scholar of The New York Times and New York magazine)

Voceditenore (talk) 12:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC) (latest update 06:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC))

Update: Dr. Blofeld has now created basic stubs for all of the above. I'll leave them up for the moment, as they need to be checked for bannering and possibly the addition of further references and/or external links with information for expanding the articles. Voceditenore (talk) 13:38, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

• Helmut Jürgens, set designer (de:Helmut Jürgens).

Cleanup requests

• Per this discussion, the following transwikied articles from the Italian Misplaced Pages need considerable clean-up:

Stefano Gobatti • Luigi Bolis • Lando Bartolini • Gaetano Bardini • Basilio Basili • Lamberto Bergamini • Angelo Bendinelli • Armando Bini • Adolfo Bassi

• Per this discussion Helen Donath recording section needs clean-up and pruning.

• Per this discussion, José Cura needs a better and more factual article with better referencing.
  • Update: after I'd done some reorganising, User:ManukaFonsworth came in and did a major expansion of the article with lots of supporting refs. Viva-Verdi (talk) 14:18, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• Martina Arroyo, needs more inline citations, currently tagged with {{more footnotes}}
• Walter Midgley, needs more inline citations, currently tagged with {{more footnotes}}
• Josef Greindl, great singer, needs a better article, odd translation and focus
• May Night needs inline citations, currently tagged with {{more footnotes}}
• Karl Hill, first Klingsor, is a stub, deserves better
  • I've cleaned up the Karl Hill article somewhat and added a Commons image of his grave (where he is clearly shown as Carl Hill!). I'll add some extra stuff tomorrow. --GuillaumeTell 23:01, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Pavol Gábor needs inline and more citations --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Free subscriptions to databases

• Questia Online Library – apply here for the next round
• Highbeam Research apply here for the next round
• JSTOR apply here for the next round
• Credo Reference sign up for waiting list here

Voceditenore (talk) 10:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Opera articles: Recordings - which to exclude?

As there has been no further discussion on this since early December 2010, I've archived this here. But this is a topic we may want to revisit at some point, re expanding/clarifying the current article guidelines. Voceditenore (talk) 08:37, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Greetings from the German language Opera Project

Hello, just wanted to say Hi! from the German language Opera Project. We started in the beginning of 2011, a very recent effort compared to you. Likewise, our average articles on operas, composers etc. are quite behind the en:WP in terms of coverage and content. Which is a shame, considering the richness of opera life in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. We have started by focussing on the widely read articles on popular operas, see this List, which gives page impressions in de:WP and en:WP and also global number of productions per year as a proxy for popularity. The rationale is this: given our low number of contributors, having 20 formerly poor articles on popular operas turned into solid works is worth more then 20 more articles on arcane subjects. How did you go about growing your project? PS: Maybe there could be some areas of cooperation, especially as regards access to and understanding of German language sources and literature. Let me know what you think. --Non mi tradir (talk) 16:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

• I have introduced this timely proposal to the discussion here. --Smerus 20:27, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Articles needing libretto links

Note that for now some of the Rossini librettos can still be accessed from the list on this page on Karadar, but it will require adding those new links to the articles, and I'm not sure how long it will be before Karadar closes that loop hole. Anyhow, here's the list of operas so far where I've removed dead links and there is currently no other alternative. It's also possible to recover some of the karadar links via the Wayback machine, as was done at L'éclair, although it's a bit fiddly. If you add a new link, just strike through the opera name(s) below. Voceditenore (talk) 16:55, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

List

Le domino noir, Sigurd (opera), Ciro in Babilonia, Sigismondo, Ricciardo e Zoraide, Eduardo e Cristina, L'equivoco stravagante, I Capuleti e i Montecchi, Médée (Charpentier), Emilia di Liverpool, Francesca di Foix, Il signor Bruschino

On this day - did you know

You know probably that I try to find a fact related to the day to put on top of this page. Some of the articles would profit from improvement. I plan to list those here, not starting a new section everytime.

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:52, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

R.I.P. Bruno Bartoletti

This article could use some major clean up. I worked on the lead, but don't have time for much else. Given that he just passed away in June there probably will be more current traffic to this page.4meter4 (talk) 14:01, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi 4meter4, great to see you here, again! It doesn't look too bad, but I agree, it needs a good copyedit in general. It also reads a little too much like an obituary. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 18:20, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Nice to see you, I will move you on the sad list of people we miss, - enjoy real life, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you all. I've missed our collaboration as well. It's nice to be back for a little bit. I'll probably be around on and off this month and then I will be gone again. I will be starting up some graduate courses shortly at the University of the Arts which will keep me pretty busy until the end of July, and then I go back to teaching my own students and rehearsing with the various music groups I conduct/perform in come August. I'll probably be around on and off this month and then I will be gone again.4meter4 (talk) 19:13, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

200th Anniversary of Verdi's birth this October

I know I am not around much these days, but I thought I might point out that Giuseppe Verdi has a 200th birthday coming up in October. It would be nice for the project to feature one of opera's flagship composers that month. It would be great to improve Verdi's biography (FA?) and some related pages in time for his bicentennial. Perhaps User:Brianboulton and User:Tim riley would be willing to help get the article ready for FA/the main page? Also, Gerda might be able to put together some related things on the portal. What do you all think?4meter4 (talk) 21:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I'm in the middle of a summer-long project (when I don't get diverted off into areas like Dr. Sun Yat-sen (opera) as I have been all day it seems!) to get all the Verdi articles updated and each with a "Composition history", "Performance History" (most have this, though Voceditenore's discovery of http://www.librettodopera.it/librettodopera/ has been a great resource for (mostly) 19th C. performances), and also a section on "Music", as well as the usual sections such as "Recordings" which are mostly up top date, though with the loss (death of the compiler, I believe) of the operadis source, we're rather limited to Amazon, etc. Am currently up to I masnadieri with a bit more to do there. Some later articles have a lot more than the early ones, of course.

One question: please take a look at the Otello#Critical evaluation of the opera section which has been tagged as "personal opinion" for five years....!! Do we just get rid of it??

I would guess that the Giuseppe Verdi article will need a lot of work to get to FA status...... Viva-Verdi (talk) 22:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think FA may be a bit too ambitious at this point. But, we could at least clean up the article and expand it a bit.4meter4 (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Alternative images for opera composer navboxes

Template:Verdi operas/sandbox I created Template:Verdi operas/sandbox in order to try some code which I believe would allow an optional alternative image to be displayed on specific opera pages. For example, if this change were made to Template:Verdi operas, the code added to the page for a particular opera could be as follows:

{{Verdi operas|altimage=GiuseppeVerdi.jpg}}

The result is shown to the right here. This would allow us to vary the portrait that is displayed for a particular opera. For instance, a portrait of the composer as he appeared around the time the opera was written might be used. If the parameter "altimage" is omitted, the default image would be displayed. See Template:Verdi operas/testcases for the original template compared to the two sandbox test cases, with and without the added parameter "altimage".

In Template:Verdi operas the value of the image parameter would need to be changed from this:

|image=Verdi.jpg

to this:

|image={{#if:{{{altimage|}}} | {{{altimage}}} |Verdi.jpg}}

Similar changes could be made to other composer navboxes, e.g., Template:Meyerbeer operas, since for Meyerbeer we have a variety of portraits made at different times in the composer's life. Would this be an option other editors would be interested in having available? Are there any objections to adding it? --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The idea would be good, if only Verdi hadn't a bottom navbox which covers much more than his operas and makes the side navbox redundant. Save it for composers who don't have a bottom navbox? - I actually would prefer to create a bottom navbox for those. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:35, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I have no objection to the botom navbox, but I don't think we have to remove the current opera navboxes at the top, just because a bottom navbox has been added. If we have to choose, I would prefer the one at the top. And I don't think it should be cluttered up with bits of info generally found in the lead, like the infoboxes that have been added to Rigoletto and Don Carlos. --Robert.Allen (talk) 22:42, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I would support the altimage idea, and agree that it would be appropriate for Meyerbeer and others. I concur with Robert.Allen on top/bottom boxes.--Smerus (talk) 06:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

You can simplify the code to:

|image={{{altimage|Verdi.jpg}}}

Which I would highly recommend.

Few notes:

1. If you're going to allow the image to be changed, you should offer optional caption and image size parameters. These may be handled identically.
2. There's no need to name the parameter "altimage", "image" is fine and consistent with other templates.
3. If you want to allow either, you can use |image={{{image|{{{altimage|Verdi.jpg}}}}}}

Adam Cuerden 15:37, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Adam, thanks for the help! Re, altimage, perhaps it makes it more clear the template has a default image, so i suppose that may be partly why i picked it, but that could be covered in the documentation. Lot's of params have default values. (Also, I wasn't sure whether it needed a different name or not.) If you have the time, please add your other suggestions to the sandbox. tnx! --Robert.Allen (talk) 19:08, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

All these features are now added, by the way. The caption was probably the hardest one to add - the core template didn't support it, so I had to do some major work to add captions back in. Adam Cuerden 00:01, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Fictional opera

I don't think there's an article or list of fictional opera but there should be. If I was at home I might get a start on it (someone else can if they want to). Since I won't be home for 2 weeks, I'm wondering what the parameters should be. Initially I'm thinking of films in which there's an operatic sequence from an opera that doesn't really exist (Tsaritza from Maytime, Salaambo from Citizen Kane or the opera in Charlie Chan Goes to the Opera - and I'm sure there is literature that talks about opera - and maybe operas within operas. Any other ideas of what should and should not go into this article? -- kosboot (talk) 15:57, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Balzac's 'Gambara' is a must.--Smerus (talk) 16:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

What about the Phantom of the Opera's opera? I've only read the book in English, I believe it's called Don Juan; however I suspect it'll be spelt differently in French. Adam Cuerden 08:58, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

From imdb, Oscar Levant was responsible for the Charlie Chan at the Opera one: "His "Crayon est sur la Table", ("The Pencil is on the Table") was a sort of parody of French opera in the style of Claude Debussy. It was a centerpiece (though transformed as "Carnaval" with an Italian libretto) for the 20th Century-Fox film Charlie Chan at the Opera (1936)." According to ClassicalNet, "In Levant's description, was written "using all the Debussy clichés from Pelléas – the descending fourth in the voice parts, the parallel seventh chords, and the interrogatory 'Pour-quoi?'" No written trace of this opera has survived." I've not read Levant's memoirs, but I dimly recall years ago a friend recounted a funny story about "Crayon" that he got from them. Drhoehl (talk) 22:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Pratchett's Maskerade has a slew of them, of course, but I think most are just mentioned in passing. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 23:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Pratchett's Fifth Elephant has enough details of the dwarf opera Bloodaxe and Ironhammer for a basic cast list, an overview and an outline of some of the key episodes ("Not the full five-week version, of course"). Scarabocchio (talk) 06:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

There is a list at List of fictional musical works#Fictional operas. See also a search for "fictional opera". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:23, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that Andy - I guess I didn't search hard enough. The list says it's supposed to be in all media, but at least the opera portion is just in literature. Do you think it's best to expand that, or start something new? -- kosboot (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I'd split it off to a separate article leaving a pointer, and expand that. Note that the page is also tagged as lacking sources. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Fatinitza

Can I beg some help on this? I think if we can get a well-sourced background section, which'd probably involve detailing Franz von Suppé's role in the development of Viennese operetta, and mentioning his notable works before Fatinitza, we could probably reasonably get this up to Good Article. A musical analysis section would be nice as well, but I'm not holding my breath for an opera now so strongly out of favour. Unfortunately, I don't have Grove, and am having a bit of trouble getting good sources together for the background. Adam Cuerden 18:09, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Are you based in the UK? Scarabocchio (talk) 18:37, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Edinburgh. Adam Cuerden 22:07, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Most (all?) people in the UK have free online access to the Grove and to Oxford Music reference works. All you need is a public library card with a bar code number on it. Go to http://www.oxfordmusiconline.com/public/login and type it in. That's it. Scarabocchio (talk) 08:59, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for everyone's help. With Grove and the other sources I have, I think a pretty good article's been assembled, particularly given the obscurity Fatinitza has now fallen into. I've nominated it for GA. If it passes, it'll be my first GA in years. =) Adam Cuerden 12:27, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Of possible note: While trying to write the "background" section, I consulted the Misplaced Pages articles Franz von Suppé and Operetta (we do not have an article on Viennese operetta). They weren't very helpful to that end, to be honest. It might be worth reviewing as to whether the text I wrote (particularly the "Background" and "Legacy" sections) might be useful to bulk out their coverage.Adam Cuerden 12:40, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

AfC submission

Another one for ya: Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/An Embarrassing Position (opera). Cheers, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi again! I left a fairly extensive comment on the draft suggesting merging the information into the composer's article. I think it will be a few years before the work becomes notable enough for a stand-alone article. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 07:46, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

An alternative might be to make an article on the play, which I believe is much more notable, and include the opera information there. Adam Cuerden 19:48, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Tom Kaufman (User:Buondelmonte)

I only learned recently, and with great sadness, that Tom Kaufman died on April 22, 2010 at the age of 80. I knew him before I even started editing Misplaced Pages and remember discussing our favourite tenors on the phone years ago. Old-timers at the Opera Project will remember him as Buondelmonte. He joined the project in January 2006 when he was well into his 70s. As you can see here, he was always determined that the tenore got his due. He started the first major expansion of Grand opera and contributed greatly to the early versions of Giovanni Pacini. His last edit here (February 3, 2009) was to add Mercadante's Virginia to the list of Opera Rara's premiere recordings. There is a lovely obituary by Charles Mintzer at Opera Nostalgia: Thomas Kaufman in memoriam. – Voceditenore (talk) 09:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing this, lovely thoughts, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Verdi improvements

We can use this section to note other areas for improvements (big or small). I'll start with:

• Images Many of the Verdi opera articles could use more illustrations. Ditto many of the role creator articles lack images of the person. Voceditenore (talk) 04:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
• Lead sections Make sure that the all ledes contain the date and place of premiere in the first 2 or three sentences. In some articles, you don't find the exact date and place of the premiere until you get to the performance history section. Voceditenore (talk) 04:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Verdi improvements and images

The Italian site Internetculturale has tons of material free for distribution. I have not yet managed to figure out how to download a bigger size photo. However the site is a possible source for many missing images. here is one exampleNicoderno1 (talk) 14:32, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

About Frederick Jackson, a young baritone(?)/bass-baritone(?)/bass(?) who appears to be article-worthy

Hello all,
See: User:Shirt58/Frederick Jackson (singer).
The article for Jackson was speedily deleted twice on 27 Jul 2013. I suspect that this was because there was an online promotional campaign involved with him singing Porgy in a recent revival of Porgy and Bess.
Most of the references to his work appear to mentions in German-language sources. Could you possibly have a little look into this, and give opinions about whether an article for him would be viable right now?
Thank you! Pete aka --Shirt58 (talk) 12:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Based on the 2 footnotes on his user page, I'd say no. But if he's been active since 2007, there must be a number of reviews about him which could possible constitute an article. -- kosboot (talk) 13:47, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I found three external links, there are more but I don't have more time. List roles with places, find Zurich as a major house, - it has potential. It would be good if he was linked somewhere ;) - I wrote an article on a "local" girl who sang in Zurich, Christiane Kohl --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:21, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Yet another AfC submission

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/L'impresario delle Isole Canarie. Regards and thank you for your help as usual, FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 22:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Apollo Municipal Theater, Ermoupolis - Article?

As this theater apparently resumed hosting operas, perhaps an article could be written for it. The Apollo Municipal Theatre (aka "La Piccola Scala") in Greece is an (alleged) La Scala copy which survived WWII (A similar building on Corfu did not) and which in 2005 became home to the Festival of the Agean with what was allegedly the first opera performed (The Barber of Seville) there (Though supposedly the Italians did so in WWII.) in over a century.

• 2005 Festival of the Aegean
• The Apollo Municipal Theatre in Ermoupolis, Siros

I first heard about this building in a Lonely Planet guide and think that it deserves coverage, but I lack the information to do a good article. But if anyone would be willing to assist I would be very greatful. Graham1973 (talk) 14:44, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Guy de Mey

Guy de Mey, born 4 August, needs cleanup, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:51, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

International Opera Awards (redlinks)

The International Opera Awards aim to reward the best of the opera world -- the top people, companies, productions, recordings, performances -- every individual and organisation at the top of their game internationally in the world of opera. One of the categories was philanthropist/sponsor. Of the remaining 19 categories, 15 were for established achievement over a period (all nominees of which I might reasonably expect to find within Misplaced Pages) and four which are rather more fast moving: best newcomer (conductor or director), new singer, rediscovered work and world premiere. The nominees for these last four should all be worthy of an article, but perhaps some few would be missing from Misplaced Pages(?)

I wikilinked the nominees and winners of the 2013 edition this morning, and found a lot more redlinks than I expected and some very surprising lacunae:

• Director: Claus Guth, Stefan Herheim
• Sets: Antony McDonald (WINNER), Christof Hetzer, Simon Holdsworth
• Costumes: Buki Shiff (WINNER), Simon Higlett, Olga Polikarpova
• Lighting: Jean Kalman, Duane Schuler
• Male singer: Aleksandrs Antonenko
• Female singer: Evelyn Herlitzius, Béatrice Uria-Monzon
• Accessibility: Streetwise Opera

and of the faster moving:

• World premiere: Jörg Widmann's Babylon at the Bayerische Staatsoper, Detlev Glanart's Solaris at the Bregenz Festival
• Newcomer (conductor or director): Daniele Rustioni (WINNER), Leo Hussain, Evan Rogister, Robert Sandoz
• Young singer: Allan Clayton, Duncan Rock, Tamara Wilson

NB: To preserve my sanity (and will to live), I am not watching ANY pages that touch on the infobox holy wars (including this one). For any feedback on the above, please go to the article talk page. Scarabocchio (talk) 17:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

List edited to remove Dmitri Tcherniakov (found under Dmitry Chernyakov). Scarabocchio (talk) 08:19, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Tiana Lemnitz

I was looking at this article and noted the absence of any mention of her supposed support of National Socialism. But then I saw a note on the talk page: "This article was written by Dalia Geffen, president of the Boston Wagner Society and is used here by permission." Of course this goes against WP:OWN - meaning that the current article should be removed and a new article has to be written from scratch. -- kosboot (talk) 14:08, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

OWN says nothing about such cases. If any of the text from that 2007 version remains, and the permission has been verified, it's perfectly acceptable. That doesn't mean it#s not open for further editing, of course. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:13, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm sure Potw is right; we can edit away, as long as what we write is properly sourced. 'Giving permission' cannot preclude other sourced information or opinions being added, or corrections being made on a similar basis. In fact the article as it stands is barely sourced at all.--Smerus (talk) 15:01, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Der Ring des Nibelungen

The first performance of the cycle started on 13 August. Looking at the article, there's room for improvement. I don't want to step on the toes of authors, just some observations:

• The section "Title" is almost good for nothing. If kept, it should be featured later.
• The section "Content" seems mostly OR, at least not sourced. Cleanup is needed, it should probably also be moved to later.
• I suggest to structure the table "List of characters": one line for each character, listing also in which part(s) that character appears.
• A lot in "Concept" is very general, also not consistently formatted.

Help? The article is seen by around 1k viewers each day, but it's nowhere near the best Misplaced Pages has to offer. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:03, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Inno delle nazioni

Is this actually in our scope? It's a cantata, and relatively short. Adam Cuerden 09:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

What happened here?--Smerus (talk) 17:28, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Nothing, as far as I know, Smerus. It was just one of the suggestions for rounding out the coverage of Verdi leading up to the bicentenary here. Strictly speaking, the Inno isn't in the OP 'scope', but Verdi certainly is. I don't see what the problem is, Adam, Those CoM and OoM, suggestions are also useful for passing editors who are not necessarily project members and for OP members who may want to branch out. Back to the Tuscan hinterland. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:17, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for letting us ignorants know from the Tuscan hinterland that it is a work by Verdi. Same question for Quattro pezzi sacri/Quattro Pezzi Sacri. Should its parts have their own articles, such as Te Deum (Verdi), now redirect? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:37, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

@VdT, @Adam, I meant, what happened to the article? Seems to have vanished.--Smerus (talk) 08:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

It was my intention to write (or at least start) it, but this was my first week back from being away. I'll start working on it tomorrow (probably just on my sandbox for now). I don't see why it should be part of WP:Opera except as a mention in the Aida article (one of the passages from Inno was reused in Aida). -- kosboot (talk) 12:59, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

@Kosboot. Probably not in scope re bannering, if/when it is actually written. It was listed in our August CoM because that one focuses specifically on Verdi's non-operatic compositions, simply as a means of rounding out the coverage of him on WP (the Composers Project doesn't seem to be much interested in Verdi, at least so far). @Gerda, my inclination would be to cover all four of the "Pezzi" in one article and to have redirects from the individual pieces, given that they will be relatively short and that they are often performed/recorded together. Voceditenore (talk) 08:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, helps, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Gotcha, Voceditenore. -- kosboot (talk) 11:17, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

P.S. In gathering my sources I note that they also talk about Verdi's other non-sacred choral work, Suona la tromba - so I'll also make an article on that. -- kosboot (talk) 13:03, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Begun work on it. -- kosboot (talk) 03:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Article created (much more involved than I thought it would be, but still interesting). Have a look and decide on what banners to put on the talk page. If Gerda wants to create a DYK, that's fine with me (they always seems to go wrong when I try to create them). -- kosboot (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh - one thing: I don't know how to italicize the name of the article - if someone could do that, it would be appreciated. -- kosboot (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Done. - Thank you for the beautiful unspeakable thing! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

DYK also done, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Increases in page views

Just in case anyone has ever wondered... In the week and a bit between the final putting together of a performance history section and the performance at the Proms last night our page for The Midsummer Marriage got about 1,000 views. Which from my point of view, made the effort worthwhile. Thanks for the help from GT et al :) almost-instinct 10:45, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Anatoliy Solovyanenko

Looks like y'all have got two articles on the same opera singer: Anatoliy Solovianenko and Anatoliy Solovyanenko. Could a project member please take care of the merge? —Psychonaut (talk) 19:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

The Library of Congress prefers the Solovianenko spelling. -- kosboot (talk) 23:28, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

A try out

See Robert le diable, with an experimental 'opera-specific' picture in the template and a pic of the compser at around the time he wrote it. Opinions welcome. This is an attept to find common ground in revamping templates with inviting material and using images at the head of the article which relate to its period, without enforcing the Procrustes bed of an infobox. Doubtless the pictures, texts, etc. used could be improved, they are of course not regarded by me as sacrosanct. I do beleive howeverthat something like this adds to the interest and informative content of the aticle without being distracting.--Smerus (talk) 15:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I found this both confusing and distracting. The image and caption look awful inserted as a thumbnail (these kinds of images in the navbox should be properly coded, if they're going to be used at all). However, the lack of the composer's image coupled with the cryptic collapsed "Operas" list makes what that navbox actually does even less transparent to the reader than it was before. Assuming an opera infobox is a non-starter with you, it's better to have the original navbox with composer's image or (preferably, in my opinion) an illustrative image on its own at the head of the article with a footer navbox. Voceditenore (talk) 17:10, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Va bene, I shall go with your second option when I have a mo, as this idea has not found general favour either here or on the article talk page, and we will see what people say to that.--Smerus (talk) 17:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Better to restore the navbox. A vertical drop down list is easier to read and it's far more convenient to use, than these (also collapsible) horizontal lists at the bottom. They should be reserved for links that are less important. Besides there's nothing obscure about collapsible lists of links. They're found everywhere on the internet, even (believe it or not) in the Misplaced Pages left-hand side bar (of all places), where there isn't even the explicit word "show". I find it hard to take these particular objections to the Composer navbox very seriously. --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

What we see now doesn't say "opera" until the last word of the longish caption. - I think any vertical navbox is superior in arrangement to the narrow "drop-down". - The "obscurity" of anything collapsed was observed by Quiddity, see Evidence, quote: "Anecdote: I've never witnessed a friend/colleague click a button without prompting; and I have pointed them out to numerous people, all of whom were surprised. Hidden sections are hostile to readers." - I will not mention the unspeakable thing ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:31, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Change of MoS without discussion

The option of infobox opera, installed by Voceditenore in the Manual of Style, was just changed, in Voceditenore's absence and without a discussion.

• I will not revert but would like to see it restored and a change discussed first. The change to "... on individual operas for which a vertical composer navbox is inapplicable." is the opposite to the (not yet archived) words by Voce, "My personal opinion is that where a footer navbox is available, replacing the header one with the infobox is perfectly acceptable." (8 July), - a view which I share. I had to notify the ArbCom case, where the MoS was mentioned. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

• I have reverted that change, for which there is no consensus whatsoever, merely the personal opinion of one editor (and possibly another) both of whom, for whatever reason did not participate at all in the discussion re adding the proposed infobox to the article guidelines. At no point in that discussion was it proposed that the infobox was an option only to be used when there was no vertical navbox available. Please see the discussion and its summary here, and even more to the point, my comments here. If you wish to change the current guidelines, fine, but do it properly. Set up a discussion, notify all the project members, monitor it daily to keep it on track, leave it open for at least two weeks for comment and then gauge the consensus based on the comments from all the actual participants for changing what we currently have. Voceditenore (talk) 17:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

You may say that there has been no discussion or consensus, but there has been plenty of discussion and editing occurring for operas of several composers, including Mehul, Bizet, Verdi, and Wagner. The end result has so far been the retention of the Composer navbox. The only exception that I am aware of is Fatinitza, which is hardly a high profile page, so has not received the attention of, or been of concern to many editors. My edit was based on the observation of the results of all this to-and-fro, and what appears to me to be the current actual state of affairs. --Robert.Allen (talk) 23:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The "back and forth" on the various talk pages of articles has basically ended with no clear consensus at all (and some did not mention the navbox at all) The thrust of those discussions was that some editors are so opposed to the opera infobox that they prefer just about anything else at the head of the article regardless of its appropriateness or usefulness. Conversely, others are so pro-infobox that they want that at the head of the article regardless of its usefulness or appropriateness. Thus the articles simply returned to their status quo ante, apart from Fatinitza. Having said that, it may be useful to add a caveat wording to the effect that replacing an existing vertical navbox with an infobox on long-established articles may encounter opposition because not all members of the project support that option. Voceditenore (talk) 17:54, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I would not go near any side navbox right now ;) - Can we have a decent discussion of the one example mentioned below (with the arb case watching), and then talk again about the MoS? I would prefer if we could come up with a general recommendation, instead of me pleading like Abraham or humbly asking like Bach on each single talk page. It's fun for a while. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

It is only for Fatinitza (a GA) and the other works by the composer (for consistency) because I don't want more discussions but finish one first. (There are several operas with an infobox - see my user page for some that were recently developed by Voceditenore and me - but those didn't have a navbox first.) In the light of the arbcom case, I chose Das Liebesverbot, as by a major composer, but not a major work. (I also chose it because "The Ban on Love" rings a bell, with the ban of an excellent contributor and friend still pending.) I suggest to let the discussion go for two weeks and then look at the general wording of the MoS. I would like to find out how we can find consensus (or not) amicably and with respect. I am on a self-imposed rule of one entry to a discussion per day ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I seem to get involved in fits and spurts. Then I calm down and go back to editing real articles! --Robert.Allen (talk) 09:17, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

17,000 words

I have just finished archiving the threads here from June through the first week in August. You'll find them in Archive 115. The vast majority are related to debates about infoboxes and navboxes with comments simultaneously going all over the place and nowhere, and many of them containing unseemly sniping and bickering on both sides. If we include these two particularly unpleasant threads in Archive 114 from early August which another editor (quite rightly) archived early, this totals over 17,000 words (the length of my Master's thesis!) in the last two months alone.

Several members are so sick of these constant, fruitless, and at times times personalised discussions dominating our project talk page that they've taken it off their watch lists. Lord knows how many prospective members we may have lost once they've read this talk page. It's quite clear that at the moment some editors have fairly entrenched positions and there is simply not sufficient common ground for us as a collective to come anywhere near an agreed "general recommendation". The world is not going to come to an end if we have to proceed without a one for now. However, the relentless attempts to continue rehashing this may well be the death of this project. Can we please take a break from all this and revisit it in a few months (if anyone wants to) when people have had time to reflect on their positions and the dust has settled on the current arbitration proceedings and their aftermath. If infobox/navbox woes crop up at individual articles, leave a brief note here for editors who might feel like participating on the talk pages of those articles and simply leave it at that.

I live in hope. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Part of the case is: how do we find consensus, or if not, what then? My position (see above): let's look at one example, - for five months, why not, no rush. I will not add an infobox where a side navbox is in place until something is resolved, but I will feel free to add an infobox to opera articles where I don't see conflict. (If you see conflict, simply revert, I am used to it and will not argue.) - I don't get passionate over infoboxes, but people. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)