Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 00:13, 9 June 2006

• ]

Archives

Articles sourced too heavily to a single person and to a website operated by that person

The debate on Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Universism (5th nomination) makes me aware of another potential hazard. Usually, I regard websites operated by organizations as reliable sources for that organization, or at least for that organization's public positions. In the case of small organizations, e.g. house museums, it's very likely that these websites are effectively controlled by a single person. But that's usually not much of a problem.

But... particularly in cases of possible use of Misplaced Pages to promote small or nascent organizations... it is important to be alert for instances in which most of the article content is actually traceable to a single source, and too much of it is traceable to a website under the direct control of that source.

In the case of Universism... it turns out that most of the article--originally entered mostly without sources--can be sourced only to the universism.org website, registered to Ford Vox (founder of "Universism"). The portions that aren't sourced to the website are sourced to writings attributed to Vox, or to articles by reporters interviewing Vox.

The article contains one very mildly negative item: "On March 24, 2006, the Movement's public online form was shut down (according to an email from Ford Vox) "because the quality of conversation had deteriorated, reflecting badly on the state of our Movement and had become a detriment to new members," with a pledge to open "a new forum in the near future."--which had been linked to the Universism website. It was removed by an editor whose interests appear to be closely aligned with Vox's, with the comment "Please note that your source link doesn't work. The information is false."

Indeed, the link no longer works. Universism.org has apparently been excluded from indexing by archive.org for some time. The link does exist in Google's cache, but not indefinitely.

All of this is trivial, but I do find it to be a concern that we have a situation where an entire Misplaced Pages article is sourced almost entirely to a single individual, and mostly to a website he controls, so that he is effectively able to control the article content by altering the cited material (or dumping it down the memory hole). Fortunately it's not an important article.

But if someone had previously post this situation to me as a possibility I wouldn't have believed it could be a problem in practice. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dpb, the policy says that we may use personal websites, and the websites of organizations that wouldn't normally be good sources, in articles about themselves so long as the material is "notable, not unduly self-aggrandizing, and not contradicted by third-party sources." It sounds as though the first two conditions were violated by this article. People controlling Misplaced Pages content by adding material to websites, then citing the websites as sources, is becoming a bigger problem all the time. It might be a good idea to start keeping track of examples so we can determine how much of an issue it is. SlimVirgin 13:14, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

That's why I mentioned it. (Needless to say this is not a perfectly clear example and my characterization of it could probably be disputed...) Dpbsmith (talk) 15:10, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the situation you are discussing is exactly why Web sites should be avoided as much as possible as sources. As far as I can tell, the only people who have a real reason to object are people living in Third World countries or very rural areas where decent libraries are hard to find. For the vast majority of topics---including fictional universes like Star Trek---one can always find a good book or article at the library. --Coolcaesar 02:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Another situation that brings such sites to the fore on Misplaced Pages is certain anti-(anything) sites. That is, a personal website created by an individual to oppose an idea. There is an anti-narconon site against Narconon and an anti-scientology site against Scientology, all personal websites whose owner has one objective. Such sites are attractive to opponents and are overused in the Dianetics and Scientology articles. Terryeo 16:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Native language question

What if I have a good source, but it's in Spanish? If I translate the quoted text, is my translation considered a WP:OR violation or does it mean that my source is not reliable? Hdtopo 22:08, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

If there's no published translation, you can translate it yourself. When I've done that, I've posted the English version, and then directly below it the original-language version, so that readers can check it for themselves. SlimVirgin 22:11, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Gracias. Hdtopo 07:39, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

books.google.com, amazon.com

These and other internet companies have begun scanning the contents of academic libraries systematically. There is, of course, a copyright controversy over it. What's important is they are far enough along to be a great help in finding pages inside books that discuss a subject -- and sometimes a book whose credibility you're trying to judge. Do folk here think this is useful enough to put on this page or another as a helpful hint? If so, I'll write it up. --CTSWyneken 21:41, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I find them invaluable. The copyright issue does not apply to Amazon (which gets explicit permission). Note that Google also puts on line full texts of many pre 1923 books. Rjensen 23:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

From our perspective, you're right about copyright, especially if we do not link to a google image page. There's enough info in these to fully cite them as if they were physical books in our hands. So, do you think a tip about them has its place on this page somewhere as a suggestion? --CTSWyneken 01:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Your note about the google image is a good beginning. Terryeo 16:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll write something up and put it here first for review. --CTSWyneken 17:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

There are many, many other companies that have already scanned in a huge amount of books (Questia, ProQuest Chadwyck-Healey) and articles (ProQuest, LexisNexis, Thomson Gale, InfoBank). See Misplaced Pages:How to write a great article. Of course, the problem with them is that you either have to subscribe directly (at enormous personal expense) or be affiliated with an academic institution or public library that subscribes. We have many community colleges in California (see California Community Colleges system) so one can always visit a community college campus if there aren't any decent public libraries nearby, but I don't know about other parts of the world. --Coolcaesar 19:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

That is true. As a librarian, I myself have such power (*evil laugh*)... ;-) I can search almost all ancient greek and latin texts (if I wish). For our purposes, I'll emphasize the open engines. I'll also mention the fact of Subscription databases along with the other advice.--CTSWyneken 11:27, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed New Text

Well, here it is. I worry that it might be a bit long and I'm not sure where to place it on the page. What do you all think of it? Do not be shy. Feel free to edit it and or tell me to go away!

Fact checking and reference-running can be time consuming. Your local public or academic library may not have the work cited by an article on its shelves. Often you can ask for a book through interlibrary loan, but this can sometimes take several weeks to do. Fortunately, new tools are now available online to make this work easier. Services such as Google Books, Amazon.com’s “search inside!” , the Internet Archive’s Million Book Project allow you to search the full text of thousands of books. In addition, many similar subscription-based services may be available to though your public, college, university or graduate school libraries.

To check on facts and citations in Misplaced Pages, however, these databases are powerful tools. You can search them the same way that you do in an internet search. Enter the author in quotation marks and the title in quotation marks. If the book is in the database already, the search engine will find it. If it isn’t, you may discover another work that discusses the book you seek. For subjects, enter as many terms as you can recall. The engines will display a list of pages that contain these terms. Often you will be able to verify the fact you are checking or discover a significant point of view not represented in the Misplaced Pages article.

When you use one of these services, be sure to gather all the information you can find by selecting links such as “About the Book.” You should be able to assemble a citation in exactly the same way you do with a print publication. Please do not link to the online version of these books. The copyright status of many of them is in litigation. --CTSWyneken 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Original research in exterior links

There's a discussion in Misplaced Pages Talk:External links about whether or not original links can constitute original research. Misplaced Pages:External links lists, among links to avoid:

Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, unless it is the official site of the article's subject or it is a notable proponent of a point of view in an article with multiple points of view. (See WP:RS for further information on this guideline.)

However, I was under the impression that WP:NOR only applied to the actual content of articles. Having read it along with this page a bit more carefully, I understand that exterior webpages about something that hasn't been talked about in reliable sources can also constitute original research. Is that right? How could we make things clearer on Misplaced Pages:External links?

(Yes, I'm aware that there seems to be tons of discussion of this or something approaching in the archives :P I'm looking for a new start with a more concrete goal: how to better formulate that on the policy page?) Flammifer 16:27, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Owners of Personal Websites editing their counter-articles

The Narconon talk page has an interesting entry at its top. An editor who is active in the article states that it is his site which is anti-narconon, and is used within the article. Presently it is being used as a citation within the article to present the controversy. Is there a policy or guideline which specifically spells out that an individual should not use his (or her) personal site as a source of secondary information or convenience links to Misplaced Pages articles? Terryeo 16:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

On the issue of linking to your own site, Misplaced Pages:External links suggests you not do it yourself, but you may mention it on a talk page, and let others do it. But, in the case you refer to, it seems somebody else (not the owner) brought up the site anyhow. The fact a site is owned by a Wikipedian does not exclude its usage. As well, the current version seems to only use the site as an External Link, and not as a "Reference". Also, it's ok to add facts with a citation to a reliable source, even if the editor originally learned those facts from a non-reliable source. --Rob 16:58, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, that makes sense, especially as an exterior link. What I've seeing in some of the articles is a responsiveness to Misplaced Pages edits. That is, a wikipedia article "kind of needs" a source of information about a particular point. *poof* a personal website suddenly has exactly the document which is then used as a secondary source, a repository sort of document which is linked to. Compared to linking directly to the source document, the personal website holds the document on its site and the document is linked to there. This makes a lot of links to personal websites. Not as secondary sources, but as "repository sources" or "convenience links".Terryeo 07:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

That is, a wikipedia article "kind of needs" a source of information about a particular point. *poof* a personal website suddenly has exactly the document which is then used as a secondary source, Terryeo, that is an interesting accusation and it is one that I would like to explore further since you are implying that other editors are engaging in bad faith editing. Are you able to point out a specific diff which documents this event happening? I do not believe that any editor has created a document and put it on a personal site in order to then use it as a response in a Misplaced Pages article. And secondly, when you demand citations for claims and then "*poof*" the citations appear, you should not assume bad faith. There are many places for you to verify the authenticity of the source material and despite your nearly endless supply of free time to vandalise articles here you have not discovered a single instance where an editor has added an improper convenience link (one that was not an accurate duplication of the original). Vivaldi (talk) 17:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

So you're implying that someone has to vandalize Misplaced Pages to make a point before you'll believe it. That's smart. Personal Web sites are inherently unreliable due to the lack of any filtering or editing mechanisms. There is no need to rely on such unreliable sources when there are many excellent reputable databases available with millions of articles from established publications. See Misplaced Pages:How to write a great article.--Coolcaesar 20:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not quite as simple as that. Yes, there may be many reputable databases with articles from reputable publications, but they don't contain the sum of human knowledge (or even more than a fraction of it). Personal websites may have information from reputable third party sources which isn't to be found anywhere else online, such as old newspaper articles or out-of-print books.

As for Terryeo's claims, he has for some time been pushing a bizarre theory that if such things are hosted on a personal website they're somehow contaminated and can't be cited or referenced. Since this seems to have been laughed out of court by everyone else, he's now pushing the theory that people are creating content on other websites just so that it can be quoted on Misplaced Pages. I've never seen any evidence of this (and Terryeo has presented none) but if it ever did become an issue, our usual rules on citations would deal with it anyway. He's already been sanctioned by the Arbitration Committee for tendentious editing and wikilawyering, so I suggest that you don't take him too seriously on this issue. -- ChrisO 09:27, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that you take the care to point out to people the result of the arbitration you brought against me ChrisO, and it isn't wrong of you to inform other's of my status. I don't appreciate that you suggest people ignore me, as you have done in several places already. And its true, I often am pointing out that personal websites are being used as secondary sources of information within wikipedia articles. For example, the article, Volunteer_Ministers presently has a "References" subsection and within that subsection appears an essey by Chris Owen (that's you, right Chris?) which is titled: Casualty Contact (Chris Owen) and which concludes with the statement, "This, evidently, is the true context of "Casualty Contact". An essey which is unpublished by any recognized publisher, but appears on Karen Splink's own personal website and is listed as a Reference within the article. Here's the link to that subsection and the link to Chris Owen's personal essey which appears on Karen's site. Volunteer_Ministers#References, Casualty Contact (Chris Owen) That's the area of my question. I'm not making an accusation, though it appears some people think I am, I'm not suggesting bad faith, I'm not attempting to wikilawyer anyone, I am attempting to get good quality sources for controversial topics. As compared to personal esseys on personal websites. Terryeo 08:43, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

There are other places besides the Internet that collectively hold the sum of human knowledge. They're called libraries. I make a point of writing down a citation or two for a Misplaced Pages topic I'm interested in almost every time I go to the public library or the public law library. It's not that hard.

It seems to me that most people pushing the use of personal Websites on Misplaced Pages are those too lazy or incompetent to go down to the library and dig up legitimate sources (as I have for Lawyer). I don't know about other parts of the world, but here in California, we have a huge number of public libraries, community college libraries, university libraries, public law libraries, and archives. I think the total number within a 10 mile radius of where I am right now is well over 100. I'm sure other urban U.S. states as well as certain European countries can easily match that density.

And as for old articles, ProQuest Historical Newspapers continues to scan in a huge number of old newspapers every single day. That's how I got the citations from the 1930s for the Freeway article. --Coolcaesar 17:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Making Misplaced Pages a reliable source

What can be done to make Misplaced Pages itself a reliable source?:

Note that Misplaced Pages itself does not currently meet the reliability guidelines...

At present anyone with spare time on their hands and a PC can edit, revert, vandalize, and otherwise waste other people's hard work, and there is absolutely no form of "finality" to an article. It is always vulnerable.

1. Is anything happening on the "who is allowed to edit" front?

2. Is anything being done to establish some form of protection for reasonably complete articles?

I am not proposing that articles should ever reach a point at which no editing is ever allowed, just that at some point reasonably complete articles should be protected from vandalism and unhelpful edits. Further editing should only be allowed after consensus is reached, and the agreed upon edit is then performed by an authorized administrator who has responsibility for the article. -- Fyslee 17:22, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages will never be a reliable source by its own standards, nor should it be. In general tertiary sources should not be used by other similiar tertiary sources (like anything, there are exceptions). Rarely should one encyclopedia cite another one. Same goes for secondary sources. The New York Times and Washington Post generally shouldn't rely on one another, but instead each should do their own original reporting (or reprint a news service that does). To do anything else creates an infinite gossip loop. Our WP:NOR policy ensures that, any encyclopedia with an equivilent WP:RS policy, could never use us. If an organization does fact checking themselves, that's original research. If they don't do their own fact checking they're not a reliable source. I think the wording in WP:RS you mentioned probably needs to be changed to remove the word "currently". --Rob 07:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Added: I obviously do want us to be reliable, but not in the sense of the term, defined in WP:RS. --Rob 07:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

fact checking is not original research. Original research means interviewing people or studying primary documents or running lab experiments. Fact checking is looking at several published reliable sources, which editors do all the time.Rjensen 07:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem we have here, is Misplaced Pages has somewhat unique working definitions of words. A typical writer (say at a newspaper), could take various secondary sources together, analyse them, and come up with some novel finding, and be the first to publish it. Outside Misplaced Pages, normally that's not called "original research" as they didn't go to primary sources. However, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, that is original research, and prohibited. Almost any newspaper story that is a reliable source for us, involved what we would call original research. That is, a Wikipedian editor could not directly do the same type of "fact checking" that the newspaper writer did, without breaking WP:NOR. --Rob 07:59, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

9/11 Commission Report, FEMA Report, and NIST Reports on 9/11 vs. Conspiracy Theories

On the talk page for Collapse of the World Trade Center a user has been making the argument that various 9/11 conspiracy theorists are essentially just as valid and reliable as the reports on 9/11 put out by the 9/11 commision , FEMA, and NIST, because the latter 3 are not peer reviewed, and that the 9/11 Commision report is not relevant because Congressmen are not qualified to speak on matters of structural engineering.

I know there is some sort of flaw in his argument, but I can't find a Misplaced Pages policy to back me up on this one. (And I've really been looking)--DCAnderson 10:45, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that I am the user in question, and I would like to clarify that I am not suggesting that FEMA, NIST or Commission reports are invalid or that "various 9/11 conspiracy theorists" are valid. DCAnderson, User:Mongo and others have been trying to enforce a inclusion threshold of 'peer review'. However, I have been simply pointing out that such a threshold, applied without bias, would also exclude the NIST FEMA and Commission reports, which is something no-body wants to do. Seabhcán 11:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Scale

Couldn't we scale sources? Usenet posts (newsgroups) would be the most unreliable (don't know who posted, don't know where from).Then Bulletin Boards (hosted on one person's server, other unknowns apply. Then Weblogs (blogs) and then Personal Websites. Personal websites are frequently being used in a responsive manner in the Scientology articles, where a hard to find source (such as Jon Atack's A Piece of Blue Sky is hosted on a personal website and linked as a reference. If we made up a scale, a "Reliability of Source Scale" then an editor could look at a reference, compare it to the references he knows of, an put his reference into an article if it was more reliable. Today, editors don't have a quick scale handy, but only have the concepts spelled out for them with just a few mentions of "don't use newsgroups". Terryeo 00:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

UK Socialist Worker Party a Good Example of "extremist?"

The Reliable Sources article identifies the UK SWP as an "extremist source" right next to the white power stormfront.org. Is this appropriate? The SWP campaigns against war and is anti-racist. The headline at their website now is in support of gov't pensions. Extremist? I'm not ruling out that I missed something about them. Can anyone else comment about UK SWP and whether the example should be changed? DanielM 00:18, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I have changed this example. I would argue that the UK Socialist Worker Party is not widely considered as holding "extremist" views. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Intent to add text to the Project Page

Dear Friends: I've had this text on the talk page for a day or two and intend to move it to the project page tomorrow. Does anyone object to this? Have any tweaking they'd like to see in it?

Fact checking and reference-running can be time consuming. Your local public or academic library may not have the work cited by an article on its shelves. Often you can ask for a book through interlibrary loan, but this can sometimes take several weeks to do. Fortunately, new tools are now available online to make this work easier. Services such as Google Books, Amazon.com’s “search inside!” , the Internet Archive’s Million Book Project allow you to search the full text of thousands of books. In addition, many similar subscription-based services may be available to though your public, college, university or graduate school libraries.

To check on facts and citations in Misplaced Pages, however, these databases are powerful tools. You can search them the same way that you do in an internet search. Enter the author in quotation marks and the title in quotation marks. If the book is in the database already, the search engine will find it. If it isn’t, you may discover another work that discusses the book you seek. For subjects, enter as many terms as you can recall. The engines will display a list of pages that contain these terms. Often you will be able to verify the fact you are checking or discover a significant point of view not represented in the Misplaced Pages article.

When you use one of these services, be sure to gather all the information you can find by selecting links such as “About the Book.” You should be able to assemble a citation in exactly the same way you do with a print publication. Please do not link to the online version of these books. The copyright status of many of them is in litigation. --CTSWyneken 14:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

popular culture

I'm not particularly impressed by this addition of a "Popular culture & and fiction" section. To me it sets the bar pretty low for reliable sources. I didn't revert it, since it appears to be based on an arbcom decision. Of course, popular culture publications don't have the same standards of reliability that scientific ones do. But I also don't think we should accept truly lousy sources, just because they're the best of a bad lot. If the best source covering an item is the National Enquirer, then maybe we shouldn't mention it. --Rob 23:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, perhaps... that's more of a notability/encyclopedic value question than a verifiability or referencing question. My real point was to counteract the more hardline view towards internet forums, mailing lists and so on above that don't apply to the same extent to certain popular culture items. Now, if peer reviewed acedemic studies about television shows, movies and so on are available, then they should be used. But they often aren't, so we have to make due with the best material that exists, as per the Arbitration Committee decision I cited (Here).--Sean Black 23:21, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a *huge* gulf between peer reviewed journals and internet forms/mailing lists. Peer reviewed journals (to my knowledge) are almost never available (for this type of thing). So, we can't demand that level of sourcing. But still, web forms and mailing lists are also almost always useless garbage to normally be avoided. To me Court TV coverage of a celibrity trial is an example, of a reasonable source. It's not nearly as reliable as I would like. But if Court TV says something about Michael Jackson, I'll accept that as a valid source. I know their sensationilistic, and ratings seekers. But we can't be so picky to exclude them (as long as we cite them appropriately). But, if there's a widely circulated story on message forums about Michael Jackson, but not in a professional media outlet, then that's garbage, that should never be used, and would actually be a violation of WP:LIVING (if it was of a negative nature). Also, the ArbCom case, seemed to involve dead people, whereas, normally pop culture edits are about the living. Also, I hope I misread you completely. I hope you agree that mailings lists are rarely reliable sources, and never useable for contentious matters. --Rob 23:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, perhaps I was speaking too generally when I really meant a more specific area. I used several USENET posts as references on Kamen Rider Stronger... Special Duty Combat Unit Shinesman is almost strictly sourced from personal websites— My problem is that this page makes says "never", which just isn't true. See also this post on the mailing list.--Sean Black 00:29, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I added the line "However, keep in mind, that personal websites and blogs should still not be used as secondary sources", just to make clear, that while we're relaxing standards, we're not throwing them out the window. This isn't a change in policy, just a restatement, which seemed necessary. --Rob 23:49, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how citing the best source available lowers the bar. I would think that the unilateral exclusion of all x sources could limit what information we can give, making the project less effective. It's not saying to go all out with questionable sources, but there could be instances where a usually questionable source can be fairly reliable. Misplaced Pages is known for having articles on obscure topics, and obscure topics don't tend to show up in peer reviewed journals. Just my two cents. --Keitei (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but that's what newspapers and magazines are for. There are many respectable well-edited publications like the Atlantic Monthly and Harper's Weekly which publish articles on a wide variety of interesting but obscure topics. You can find practically anything on ProQuest or LexisNexis or Infotrac nowadays---that's how I researched most of the articles which I have contributed to Misplaced Pages (see my user page). As I have said before and will say again, my personal suspicion is that the editors most resistant to digging up respectable sources are either living in areas with no libraries or are simply too lazy to go down to the library and dig up some real sources. --Coolcaesar 23:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Alternative newspaper

How do we determine if New Times Los Angeles is a reliable source? It's website looks suspicious http://www.newtimesla.com/ --Nikitchenko 11:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

The http://www.newtimesla.com/ is no longer owned by New Times Los Angeles. The site itself is a domain name parking FOR SALE sign and it registered out of Taipai, Taiwan. The New Times Los Angeles is no longer in operation. However, you are correct to point out that the New Times Los Angeles was an alternative newsweekly. As an alternative newsweekly, their articles are not generally subjected to the same rigorous editing and fact-checking that occurs at larger papers, like the LA Times, NY Times, or Wash Post. Thus, factual claims made by New Times Los Angeles should be considered in that light. Are the claims they are making supported by other more reliable sources? Are the New Times claims consistent with the testimony of other parties found elsewhere? I don't think we can automatically exclude as reliable sources the alternative newsweeklies, but we should make sure that the information they provide is supported by other reliable sources. Vivaldi (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

N.B. One notable example of an article being based almost solely on the content of a newsweekly is Sollog. Vivaldi (talk) 14:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

There has been a lot of consolodation in the "alternative" weekly business, and the LA version of New Times was a casualty of that, but a chain of New Times papers in other cities has continued. I believe that chain has since merged with Village Voice Media, and that group now owns many of the better-established "alternative" papers, including LA Weekly and the Village Voice in New York. Despite the "alternative" label, these papers are run by large corporations who are sensitive to lawsuits and they do indeed have editorial and fact-checking staffs. BTfromLA 15:37, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

these papers are run by large corporations who are sensitive to lawsuits and they do indeed have editorial and fact-checking staffs. In the larger market areas this industry has been consolidated, with Village Voice running most of the nations alternatives. However, these papers still have a tendency to engage in hype, innuendo, and tabloid-style stories. (On the other hand, they have done a lot of good things, exposing a number of fraudulant politicians and companies.) I'm not suggesting these groups are all bad, but merely that they sometimes engage in journalism that is unprofessional (if news journalism can even be "professional"). There is a tendency for Misplaced Pages editors to overvalue comments that are placed in newspapers. When evaluating sources, researchers in general do not consider newspapers to be an accurate source for information. This is in large part because many newspapers, and especially newspapers in the "alternative" market, do not require their journalists to receive any training at all in the craft of journalism. There are no independent tests given to journalists to prove they are competent before they are given access the front pages. Newspapers are not peer-reviewed. Newspapers generally don't have fact-checkers go back and investigate their reporters sources to make sure they are quoting people correctly (or even if the sources exist at all). In some cases, reporters are allowed to use anonymous sources to make their claims, which makes them even more suspect. The whole point being. Yes, alternative newsmagazines can be used by wikipedians as sources, however they should also consider that such sources are not the best kinds of sources and editors should strive to find more reliable sources that back up the information. If claims are truly notable and worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia, they should have been reported on by more than one reliable and reputable source. Vivaldi (talk) 16:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I concur with your assessment on that issue. An assertion drawn from an alt weekly article should always be backed up with corroborating sources. I have worked in journalism. Generally the quality of journalism is highest at the big newspapers of record like the NYT and WSJ, because most people who have reached that level are smart enough to not wreck their own careers by making stuff up (Jayson Blair being the obvious exception). However, journalists at alt weeklies are often independent writers with very odd backgrounds. --Coolcaesar 23:46, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

To Link or not to Link...

Rjensen makes the point that we should not restrict editors based on future court findings. Fair enough. This still leaves the question as to whether or not it is fair to link to them. Misplaced Pages:Copyrights#Linking to copyrighted works asks that we do not link to infringing works. There is a very good chance that the Google Books] versions of copyrighted works are infringing. They are not produced for an educational use, they are by-and-large copyrightable works, the copying is of the complete works and their is an argument that Google will supress sales of electronic versions of these works by placing them online.

So, what, if any, should we say to our editors about this? --CTSWyneken 13:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Google books is set up to let you view a small portion of a book, not the whole thing. Whether or not it is fair use is argued by many. I'd prefer that editors of wikipedia just link to the ISBN numbers of books rather than to google books directly. Then the admins and controlling board of wikipedia can decide what to do with the links to the ISBN as a group. Vivaldi (talk) 14:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Good idea! I'll put it in! --CTSWyneken 12:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Let the editors link to google books. If Google is found to be copyvio, the links will go dead. If not then we have given users a remarkable resource. Rjensen 23:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Talk about timing; try Scan this Book! about the effort to scan every book ever written. --CTSWyneken 18:43, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Over zealous fact tagging

I find an increasing number of articles that are over linked and over fact tagged. By over linked I mean an article where there are links to every word including links that are ambiguous and wrong.

By over fact tagging I mean the cases where there is a citation in the introduction to basic information about the subject that gives a set of pretty obvious, basic facts. Then when the facts are mentioned later in the article there will be a fact tag on practically every other word .

Could we have a note to the effect that before fact tagging people should familiarize themselves with the citations in the introduction? --Gorgonzilla 00:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

It might be good to ask how many citations we really want in an article. Do we want to, say, require a note for Thomas Jefferson writing the Declaration of Independence? Or do we save it for less known facts?

It seems at the moment that we do not insist on citations for non-controversial subjects, but insist on it in every phrase for articles like Jesus. --CTSWyneken 02:04, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the current situation as described by CTSWyneken. That's the logical result of having an encyclopedia where anyone can post information and anyone else can challenge it. Assertions about controversial subjects will be challenged more often, necessitating more citations to sources that support them. --Coolcaesar 03:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

As long as the policy pages say that all statements have to be sourced, cited and properly attributed, editors that want their contributions to have a chance of staying in an article have to cite and attribute every sentence. Drogo Underburrow 03:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

If that is the case, practically speaking, how do we decide which articles we should tag? Then, how often? The rules of thumb I've always gone by, and taught, is as follows:

If you find the same information in two or more sources, you may summarize this information without a note. If less, you should cite at least one source. If you quote a source, even a phrase, you must cite it. Even though you need not cite common knowledge, as described in the first rule, your readers may find it helpful to cite a good example for further research. --CTSWyneken 11:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me just point out that WP:V does not say that all statements must be sourced. In fact, it doesn't say anything about sourcing individual statements at all, just that material included in WP should have already been published somewhere. Inline citations for statements is a requirement for featured articles, not every article. That said, inline citations are probably best to justify controversial statements. But I personally think that the {{fact}} tag is being overused because except in the case of controversial statements or statements whose verifiability is not settled, and except for articles trying to reach featured status, this tag is not really necessary. Mangojuice 13:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we should go somewhere in the middle. It is helpful to source things, for the same reasons academics cite sources. First, it give intellectual credit to the scholar the first made the contribution to scholarship. Second, if we have the "I want to know more" feeling, we have some idea where to start.

So I guess the question is: does everyone find the text of Reliable sources sufficient on this point? And, no matter what the answer to that question, will my little rules of thumb paragraph be useful on it? --CTSWyneken 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The rule of thumb is a good addition. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Gorgonzilla, could you provide some examples of articles that are overcited? SlimVirgin 01:48, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

When to cite

The following was added by CTSWyneken, and is something that might conflict with other policies, so I'm moving it here for discussion. SlimVirgin 01:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

When Citations are required; Some Rules of Thumb

There are no hard and fast rules as to when a citation is required. Here are a few rules of thumb to use when trying to decide whether a citation should be requested:

1. If you find the same information in two or more sources, you may summarize this information without a note.
2. If less than two or three sources have this information, you should cite at least one source.
3. If you quote a source, even a phrase, you must cite it.
4. Even though you need not cite common knowledge, as described in the first rule, your readers may find it helpful to cite a good example for further research.

That's fine. I had it here for awhile for that purpose. With which policies do you see a conflict? --CTSWyneken 01:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Possibly V, CITE, and NOR, especially the last bit about "common knowledge." The rule that "if you find the same information in two or more sources," you don't need a reference, is completely new, not a good idea, and definitely clashes with V and NOR. SlimVirgin 01:55, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll review them. Thanks! If so, that's kind of odd, don't you think? Do we need a cite for every phrase? If we don't go by common knowledge, at least as a rule of thumb, isn't that where we're at? Even though I've written them, personally I don't like reading and correcting five page papers with forty footnotes. --CTSWyneken 02:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

We use common sense and provide citations for any point that is likely to be challenged, or that readers might be interested to pursue, or any point that is actually challenged. SlimVirgin 02:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I've only ever seen one article that was over-cited, and it was a biography someone had complained about, which is why there was that reaction. Our big problem on Misplaced Pages is lack of citation, so our policies and guidelines shouldn't say anything that appears to discourage it. SlimVirgin 02:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Well I do agree that we do need a lot more citation. But I do think a little honesty with folk will go a long way. (we shouldn't say, "cite everything" when we mean, "make sure we know where things come from." )But, if others agree with you and if it is impossible to reconcile with the other policies, I can drop this rule. What do you think of the others? --CTSWyneken 02:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

None of the policies says "cite everything." The only one of your suggestions I'd agree with is the need for a citation when quoting, but that's not an issue for WP:RS, although there's no harm in adding it, but it's probably more for WP:CITE. SlimVirgin 02:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I've added a sentence about quoting to Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources#When_to_cite_sources, because you're quite right that it should be mentioned somewhere, and I see no harm in adding it here too if it's not already explicit. SlimVirgin 03:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that line to Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources#When_to_cite_sources/

I'll do a policy/guideline reread and get back to the discussion after that. I still think that, while we do not say it, we imply everything should be cited, unless we say something about it.

Perhaps it would help to ponder some examples. Should we require a cite for:

1. London is the capital city of Great Britain.
2. Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence.
3. Christopher Columbus was born in Genoa, Italy.
4. The composition of the ink used by Johannes Gutenberg to print the Gutenberg Bible.

Given we can agree on these, how do we explain to new editors how to disern which to cite? --CTSWyneken 11:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I cannot give a cite for that, because I only remember what suprizes me and due to that I can give a cite from a reputable source that Aarhus is a city in the Netherlands. Can I use that reputable source for the article Aarhus? : ) Andries 11:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

If it is really reputable and not just reputed to be so. ;-) --CTSWyneken 13:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

A quote that may or may not be helpful:

Ethics, copyright laws, and courtesy to readers require authors to indentify the sources of direct quotations and of any facts or opinions not generally known or easily checked ... the primary criterion is sufficient information to lead readers to the sources used, whether these are published or unpublished materials, in print or electronic form. The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th ed. (Chicago and London: The University of Chicago Press, 2003), 594, para. 16.1-2.--CTSWyneken 13:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal websites as secondary sources

An example of a personal website being used to publish an individual's personal opinion and then using that publication as a secondary source of information can presently be found at Volunteer_Ministers, Note 4. Chris Owen (User:ChrisO), an administrator who edits the Scientology articles, wrote an essay which concluded; "This, evidently, is the true context of "Casualty Contact"." and that essay was placed on a personal website and is used within an article to define what Chris Owen means by "casualty contact". The article goes on then, stating more about "casualty contact" after introducing what Chris Owen understands the term to mean. Terryeo 22:44, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I haven't edited that article, ever, I haven't added that reference to the article and I don't think it's an appropriate reference to include. I note that you haven't bothered to bring it to my attention but choose instead to make insinuations of misconduct behind my back on policy pages - not the first time you've done that, either. Frankly, it's just more of the dishonest trouble-making conduct we've come to expect from you. -- ChrisO 01:00, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Because you are the author of publication I appreciate that you are concerned and say so. However, if you will carefully read both the above and this post, you will find at no point have I done any of the things which you state.

• I did not state that you added that reference to that article.
• I did not ask you whether you thought that was an appropriate reference.
• I did not bring it to your attention because you are not the person who is most active in WP:V, WP:CITE and WP:RS.
• I made no insinuation of misconduct, either behind your back nor to your face.
• You have, however, accused me of "dishonest trouble-making" and that verges on personal attack. Please stop your personal attacks, User:ChrisO. Terryeo 00:01, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Are patents peer-reviewed sources?

Are patents peer-reviewed sources, suitable for use as primary sources? On the one hand, the patent clerks who examine them are, to a degree, experts in the field. On the other hand, some notorious patent applications have slipped through from time to time. Gerry Ashton 22:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've only read a little in the area. While early patents might have been written by the inventors, modernly, patent application, review and granting has become a cumbersome process. So much so that I have read, for some things, people choose to simply market, rather than apply for patent. There may exist somewhere today, some small country wherein patents are not a specialized, high-tech, legal battlegrounds of experts, but in most countries it is beyond easy description. Applications expect peer-review, they are specifically written to withstand extreme peer-reviewed scrutiny, yet stand up to scrutiny and protect the inventor's idea. Terryeo 22:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I wish! The target audience of papers and patents is different. With a paper you want to establish scientific cred, a patent OTOH is to hedge your bets against competitors. Dr Zak 21:07, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

To echo Dr Zak: Patents, are a RS as far as the patent claims go--in other words, if Megasoft Corp claims to patent technology X (or even to invent it), an issued patent on X is a reliable source for that claim. (Though an active dipute may seek to dilute the soundness of the claim--but if a source is disputed; that may become the province of NPOV). They're probably of little use as a general reference on technology or science matters--not because of the (in)competence of the patent office (in whatever jurisdiction), but because patents are not written to inform the world at large of the details of a discovery; they're written to inform the world what is claimed as a protected invention. The style and construction of prose used in a patent is notoriously difficult for laypersons to decipher, and often includes superfluous items (and a great deal of redundancy) to allow the application to cover as many bases as possible.--EngineerScotty 21:15, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I have read pleanty of patents in my time, and I agree that the claims section is usually indecipherable to anyone but a patent lawyer; even scientists and engineers will have a difficult time with the claims. However, the description of the invention is supposed to enable a person skilled in the art to build the invention, and I've seen some patents that have a very useful description. So, I generally would not look to patents to learn about a subject, but if I happened to know of one that was worthwhile, I am wondering if it is considered a peer-reviewed source for use in Misplaced Pages or other places where peer-reviewed sources are preferred. Gerry Ashton 21:25, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's put it like this (and WP:RS explicitly mentions this): just because it's printed it isn't necessarily true. Sometimes results are misinterpreted, sometimes papers are just made up. The consensus formed after publication is much much more important than the conclusions drawn from a paper (or a patent). Dr Zak 01:36, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Just found this in the bowels of Misplaced Pages: Brown's gas. The article quotes several patents and the claims are Total Bollocks altogether. Dr Zak 12:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the problems with the current patent system is that patents are not being subjected to peer review, or in many cases adequate review. The proof of this is found in the patents that have been issued for perpetual motion machines, or for lossless compression methods which achieve compression on all inputs (to give you an idea of how strong a proof that is that patent != peer-reviewed, the existence of a perpetual motion machine would merely require setting aside all experimental observations that have ever been made regarding the law of thermodynamics, but the existence of a lossless compression method which achieves compression on all inputs would require setting aside '2 > 1'.) -- Antaeus Feldspar 14:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Court Testimony

I propose that additional information be added to explain the following statement from this guideline:

"Misplaced Pages articles may use primary sources only if they have been published by a reliable publisher e.g. trial transcripts published by a court stenographer..."

It should be explained that merely claiming something came from a court stenographer is not sufficient. Some type of reference information needs to be given to make the average person capable of contacting a specific PLACE to give some REFERENCE information that would be sufficient to allow a reader to receive that particular information. I am not sure exactly what that is, as I have never had to perform this action to get a court transcript. Secondly, this guideline should make it clear that TESTIMONY in a court cannot be "hearsay evidence". The word "testimony" is derived from the Latin root "to witness", and it must pertain to the knowledge that the witness has received information first hand through his own senses. One cannot fully accept testimony under oath where a man swears that a "several people told" him that a certain person has been "hanging around the bank window planning a robbery for several days". The only reliable part of this testimony is the fact that some people told him this. The man who took the oath did not witness this. It is merely "heresay evidence" as to the content of WHAT those people said to him. The only way that what those people said could become reliable is if they themselves actually took an oath and gave their own testimony. The court stenographer would have to be asked if another transcript may contain other testimony of other witnesses. --Diligens 20:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Diligens, in citing court transcripts, all we would do is quote them, or very carefully paraphrase, and give a full citation. We don't judge whether any given witness is credible. Please see WP:NOR. SlimVirgin 20:53, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Testimony under oath probably has a bit more credibility than claims made otherwise; and testimony which supports a finding by the Court a bit more so. At any rate, court transcripts and documents are certainly a RS concerning what was stated at trial or in briefings; even if we don't accept them as evidence concerning the veracity of an individual's testimony. --EngineerScotty 21:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Reliable?

I propose that we should change “Reliable sources” to “Credible sources”. I am currently in an argument with another editor, trying to explain why his fansite is not an appropriate source. He argues that the information has been consistently more accurate than major media outlet IGN. This is a good point, but to me it reflects more of a semantics problem than an actual flaw in procedure. -- WikidSmaht (talk) 20:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Polish sources not reliable?

Some editors seem to be suggesting that since an article uses Polish (academic) sources it must be POVed. Comments appeciated at Talk:Soviet partisans in Poland.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:23, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Index of reliability

I have started a discussion closely related to 'evaluating sources' sections on this policy page at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Index_of_.27sources_of_dubious_reliability.27_needed. Comments appreciated.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:03, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Methylphenidate Revert War

I am currently engaged in a revert war on the Methylphenidate page with User talk:PHenry. He is accusing me of violating the terms of this page by including a link to negative information on that drug. The links I added are reports of people with negative side effects on this drug. I did not include the information on the website in the body of the article - I merely added a link. Is that a violation of this policy? I think not, but PHenry insists that I am doing something wrong. See Talk:Methylphenidate for details. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fsk (talk • contribs)

We shouldn't give undue weight to what may be doubtful assertions. Personal websites that make them are always doubtful. We can't include them and we can't link to them either, as that would give an unproven assertion undue weight. Dr Zak 02:18, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the external links section carries no burden of neither reputability, nor verifiability. If that is not the case, we ought to make thsi very clear in this policy. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

So I'm looking for an interpretation. Is it acceptable for me to put disputed links in the external links section of that article? I belive that the answer is 'yes'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fsk (talk • contribs)

I think the external links policy is clear. Section "Links to normally avoid" states "Any site that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, unless it is the official site of the article's subject or it is a notable proponent of a point of view in an article with multiple points of view. (See Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources for further information on this guideline.)" This is actually sane. Especially some medical subjects attract endless amounts of quackery and advocacy. We don't permit those in the article and shouldn't give them undue weight by linking to them externally. Of course we can (and should!) say many people believe that $MEDICATION is a bad reputation because of $SIDE-EFFECTS, but there must be a better way to back that up than someone's blog. Dr Zak 04:44, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Important to say that WP itself is not a reliable source

I'm restoring the sentence that says

Note that Misplaced Pages itself does not currently meet the reliability guidelines.

(while omitting the puzzling phrase "however, nothing in this guideline is meant to contravene the associated guideline: Misplaced Pages:Build the web. Wikilink freely.) I think it is important to be crystal-clear on this. When I ask people to cite sources for an assertion, I am frequently told that none is needed because the assertion contains a bluelink to another Misplaced Pages article that makes the same assertion. That is, if List of people known as father or mother of something says "X is known as the father of Y" and I ask for a source, I may be told "it says so right in our article on X." But more often than not the article on X contains no source, or at least no inline reference. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:57, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Email Discussion List Archives

A question has come up at Talk:On the Jews and Their Lies as to whether or not such sources constitute reliable sources. Please share your thoughts on this. I can see it both ways. No matter what the consensus here, I’m game to write a paragraph for the project page that covers the collective opinion here.

The listserv in question is H-Antisemitism. Below are excerpts from its pages so that you can get a feel for this resource.

http://www.h-net.org/lists/

H-Net's e-mail lists function as electronic networks, linking professors, teachers and students in an egalitarian exchange of ideas and materials. Every aspect of academic life--research, teaching, controversies new and old--is open for discussion; decorum is maintained by H-Net's dedicated editors.

http://www.h-net.org/~antis/

Welcome to H-Antisemitism, a member of H-Net Humanities & Social Sciences OnLine. H-Antisemitism encourages scholarly discussion of the history of antisemitism and makes available diverse bibliographical, research and teaching aids.

http://h-net.msu.edu/cgi-bin/welcomeletter?list=h-antisemitism

The moderators see it as their task to weed out extraneous postings and to make every effort to keep the list functioning as a medium of scholarly discourse. Postings shall in no way be censored. Nor will they have to conform to some preconceived philosophy or agenda. However, the moderators propose to distribute only those messages which meet the standards of scholarly seriousness and reasonably good manners. Let us emphasize that our intention is not to exclude for the sake of exclusion but rather to maintain quality. We are well aware that valuable contributions can come from people who have published little or nothing in the field. When doubt arises as to the suitability of a posting, the moderators will be advised by the board.

What are your thoughts, fellow editors? --CTSWyneken 18:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Caveat: No idea about this particular mailing list and its denizens. At least (opposed to Usenet posts) one can trust the participants to be verified, that is they are who they say they are.

Apart from that I see no reason why posts to mailing lists should be treated different from self-published material in any other form, whose reliability hinges on the reputation of the person that made the statement. Dr Zak 22:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! The same can also be said about all the H-Net lists, which have been around since the early 1990s. If any list archives are acceptable, these would be. On the other hand, there are some lists less carefully maintained, so it is difficult to approve of them in a blanket sense. Do we want to craft a rule that allows for H-Net and similar lists, one that rules them all out or accepts all lists? I'm gathering you're saying, even though this is a respectible organization, no exceptions. --CTSWyneken 10:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You may gather as you please. However, the editor is clear when he states, "No idea about this particular mailing list and its denizens." The facts are that no posts are published without approval of the editorial board of scholars.Doright 23:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I would rather compare a mailing list post to an interview. How "quotable" the person making statements is depends on the newspaper/radio/TV station (obviously NPR is more trustworthy than FOX) and on the person interviewed (you can have a controversial scholar appear put forth his theory or you can have someone impartial sum up the state of knowledge). It depends. It very much depends. Dr Zak 01:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

CTS, thank you for the careful manner in which you are going about your research into the reliability of this source. It would be better if all participants in this discussion would limit themselves strictly to this issue. I receive the distinct impression that there is one Wiki user who appears to be following CTS everywhere he goes on Wiki trying to all he can to pick a fight. Isn't that childish behavior? And is it something that Wiki admins wish to condone, tolerate and encourage. It would be nice if the person would do the right thing and stop this kind of behavior.--Ptmccain 12:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of h-antisemitism

Please see and for background and analysis.Doright 22:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I helped found H-Antisemitism a decade ago. It is an edited list--every posting has to be approved by its editors, who include the leading scholars in the field. Rjensen 23:00, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. So are you saying, let's accept this list? --CTSWyneken 10:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

He appears to be asking, what are your thoughts, fellow editors. I would say first of all, it is obviously not one man's personal opinion, it is not a personal website. It doesn't quite have the status of a government website, it apparently has a program or point of view which it presents, but I would say it is a good source of information. I am not endorsing it as philosophically valid, but as valid, published information, akin to a newspaper article in its repute, I would say it is good information. Terryeo 00:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Terryeoit, I agree with you that "it is a good source of information." However, I do not agree that it "apparently has a program or point of view which it presents." What about it suggests to you that it might have a "point of view which it presents?"Doright 01:31, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Because its first paragraph says what it addresses? "H-Net .. links professors, teachers and students .. Every aspect of academic life .." So it is not talking about a war machine or about nudity or about the yield of rice per hectre, but about academic life. Terryeo 23:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitions

A secondary source summarizes one or more primary or secondary sources... A tertiary source usually summarizes secondary sources...

No further explanation is given what the difference between a secondary and a tertiary source is. Please, revise.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 18:39, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's self-evident. A secondary source is one step removed from the primary source, while the tertiary source is two steps removed. Therefore, the probability of distortion increases. For example, a summary may omit vital points and quotations can be taken out of context. I don't see why any more explanation is necessary. --Coolcaesar 22:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

An individual goes out into the field and makes an archaeological dig. His personal notes and his speeches and the books he publish are Primary sources of information. Other archaeologists combine his work with others, similar primary sources and thus publish information about the time period and the area of the globe which is a secondary source. The other archaeologists are secondary sources of information because they provide a context and expertise which recognize the primary source of information. Then, Encyclopedias are tertiary sources. There are two sides to the coin of informational accuarcy. Encyclopedias don't give you much information "Straight from the horse's mouth", but, on the other side of the coin, they give you widely accepted information in context. Often this is easier to understand than the specialist's technical jargon and handwritten notes. Terryeo 23:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your trouble explaining what secondary and tertiary sources are, folks; however, this is not what my question was about. I myself know perfectly well what the difference is. My issue is regading the definition as it currently stands. This page is an official Misplaced Pages guideline, and just because we know the difference does not mean every other person researching our policies and guidelines would (think of a schoolboy trying to figure this out using our guideline page). The definition in its present form is extremely confusing to an uninformed reader, and the notion that the definition is "self-evident" does not really help. I think that when it comes to wording used in our policies and guidelines, we should make every effort to spell everything out. Schoolboys aside, folks out there often apply the guidelines after interpreting them quite literally; and currently the guidelines literally say that secondary and tertiary sources can be the same thing. The "self-evident" clause can easily be dismissed as a non-issue (trust me, I've seen situations like this happen more than once). Please, have the paragraph re-written more clearly. Thank you.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 13:14, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point and there was really no need for any sarcasm by anyone to have crept into the discussion. It would be just ideal to have really good, really clear definitions. Terryeo 22:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about NPOV, NOR, Verifiability etc. on Talk:Fedora Core

I have been asked to mention this discussion here. - Samsara (talk • contribs) 18:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Personal websites as primary sources

I noticed this section here quotes WP:V, but the quoted text in WP:V was edited on May 23 and no longer exists. Gimmetrow 21:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Its like editing into a headwind or something, heh. It would be helpful if at least the three policies, NPOV, V and NOR were more stable. Terryeo 23:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the reference made to WP:V should go. The verifiability policy demands that statements be verifiable. This guideline here gives advice how to go about finding them. Dr Zak 01:14, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, finding them, yes. But there is more to WP:V than the idea of verifiability. There is also the idea of published which necessarily happens first, before verifiability. A newsgroup of a particular date could be stored on a dozen websites and become "verifiable" but would not meet the threshold this guideline provides. WP:V states the threshold of verifiability must be met. While this guideline states Misplaced Pages's threshold of publication. A book is published, a court document is published but a newsgroup is not published and a personal website's essay is not published. (some possible exceptions) Terryeo 03:02, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with websites and newsgroup posts is attribution. For all we know, it could have been the family dog that made the newsgroup posting/blog entry/website. Dr Zak 03:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Attribution is certainly a problem. A newsgroup's postings can hardly ever be sure of who created the posting. Newsgroups can satisfy "verifiability" if they are reposited on numerous servers but can't satisfy the problem of attribution. Quality blogs and quality personal websites could satisfy both verifiability and attribution. However, neither blogs nor personal websites are "published to the public" per WP:V for other reasons. Terryeo 17:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Please excuse banned user Terryeo. Publicly accessible websites and newsgroups are published, per the definition. --Fahrenheit451 05:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello again, User Fahrenheit451. I notice you can scarcely speak my name but to mention my status. My user page already tells anyone who is interested what my status is. As you see, I can post freely here so your statement about "banned" is not completely, 100% accurate. But your statement about newsgroups and personal websites is not accurate either. Newsgroups are not published to the public and can not be used as secondary sources. Blogs are not published to the public and can not be used as secondary sources. Personal websites are not published to the public and can not be used as secondary sources. Personal websites can, however store information which is published to the public, held as repository information on a personal website. The threshold of "published to the public" includes, you see, an author and attribution. Newsgroups do not meet this minimun threshold. Blogs and personal websites meet the minimum threshold of having a author, but don't meet other thresholds which WP:V require. Your statement demonstrates a misunderstanding. Terryeo 22:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. Sorry for not catching on to him earlier. If anyone wants to hear my personal two cents on Operation Clambake, it's this: we know who runs the site and the person and his work are well-regarded in the field, consequently it is a good source. (If the wording of the guideline disagrees the guideline might need adjusting.) Dr Zak 06:11, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Operation Clambake is known for a single field. It is the opposition to freedom of religion. If you wish to consider Andreas Heldal-Lund who first opposed Chrisianity and then opposed Scientology, is "well-regarded" then I invite you to similar thinking done by other such heros. Heros such as Hitler, Saddam, and today's president of Iran. All of those individuals likewise were and are "well-regarded" by a narrow group of people, but most of our planet's people considers them to be suppressive to freedom of religion. Terryeo 22:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Does Terryeo actually have a point to make within all that personal attacking, ad hominem arm-waving and Godwin's Rule confirmations, seeming made with intent to provoke? Could he provide a cite showing that Andreas is currently a well-regarded dictator of a nation-state? AndroidCat 02:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is such a double-standard by Dr. Zak. He says "personal websites are OK if I give my say-so they're OK". However, he has been cracking down on me linking to other websites, where I've verified on my own that they're legitimate.

If you can come up with evidence that websites such as or are well-regarded by any significant number of activists they will stay. Note that no one ever thought of removing Dr Breggin's site - that man is respected. Dr Zak 06:34, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding those two websites, those two links. If you explore the sites (Click "about us") you find they are both personal websites. That is, created by 2 or 3 individuals whose purpose is to present their own, personal viewpoint and experience about a specific area. As such, any opinions on them would not satisfy WP:V, though if they had repositiory newspaper articles or books, those could be used as secondary sources of information, if they were accurate. Terryeo 17:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Those two sites could not be used within an article for information (except reposited, published books and other published information), but could be used in a "Exterior Links" section. Terryeo 18:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What's the burden of proof for "well regarded"? It seems like such a wishy-washy standard. Plus, we are debating the standard for what is acceptable for inclusion in the "external links" section of a page, which is a much lower threshold than what is acceptable as source material for the body of an article. It appears that Dr. Zak asserts that "well regarded" is "whatever I consider to be acceptable".

There seems to be a fascination amongst non-scientists with "peer-reviewed journals". Well, there is much stuff published every day, even in refereed journals, much of it is boring, and some of it isn't even so, either because of mis-interpretation of results or outright fraud. What is more important is the prevailing scientific consensus that emerges when published research is discussed in the scientific community. So up to a point, "well regarded" is that people consider acceptable. WP:RS#Cite_peer-reviewed_scientific_publications_and_check_community_consensus actually mentions this. Dr Zak 22:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Dr Zak writes, Note that no one ever thought of removing Dr Breggin's site - that man is respected. Peter Breggin is well-respected among the Scientology kooks at the CCHR. He's not that well-respected in the psychiatric community. However, Breggin has had books published by reputable publishers. I'd say that Breggin's personal website is appropriate for discussing himself, but not for sourcing claims that Breggin makes about other topics other than himself. If you want to source a claim about psychiatry to Breggin, find a peer-reviewed journal in which he makes the claim, or at least find a published book. Vivaldi (talk) 07:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well stated, Vivaldi. A personal website's opinions may only be used as references to itself, in an article about the website or about the author. Breggin's books, because they are published, can be used as secondary sources of information.

I would be more specific. Those statements of Breggin's that made it into the accepted body of literature can be used to back up statements about psychology. The statements that are made on his website can be used in the article on himself. Dr Zak 22:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

A Reliable resource but false claim

I have two questions and I want to extend the WP:RS policy if consensus is developed. Below is the first one.

• Question 1: What if a source/book makes false a claim. Will it be still okay to use that claim? For example: If a source "A" says that the fact "k" is obvious from source "B", whereas "K" is never mentioned in source "B".

I will give real wikipedia example later but want to have some comments first. --- Faisal 00:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've always wondered about "verifiably false" claims. In the simplest case, if the New York Times prints a story saying "A", but then issues a correction a week later saying "We were wrong, 'A' is false", the first story is verifiable, but also verifiably false.

If somebody comes along and cites to the first NYT story to establish "A", are we really required to have two sentences, saying "On November 2, the NYT said 'A'. However, on November 8, the NYT issued a correction, saying that the November 2 story was incorrect, and actually 'not A'."? As it reads now, verifiability, not truth suggests that we are.TheronJ 14:10, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability, not truth is the threshold for our putting information together, to create articles. But the quality of an article rests on more than a policy. It is the great advantage of Misplaced Pages to have many editors. An editor might create an article who has read the first NYT article but not the second, and a second editor come along who considers the second NYT article important. Both pieces of information can then be included, producing a balanced article. Terryeo 17:37, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Here is the real wikipedian example. Please tell me what I should do. The article jizya says:

It was of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers....

However, I am NOT able to find any verse of Quran that say so. I invite other users to present any verse and they are also not able to do that. However, if I try to remove this misleading claim of a so-called well-know writer then other Users do not allow it and say that I should read WP:RS. Do not you think that WP:RS need to be change. Book reference is not enough but also the claim made by a book should be verifiable. Should I change WP:RS? --- Faisal 22:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Faisal, I'd say the first thing would be to find a copy of Goiten and check pp. 278-79 and see if he cites to a specific section of the Koran. You can probably get one by interlibrary loan. That might resolve the issue in one direction or the other.TheronJ 22:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It is upon the shoulders of the editor who quotes a book to provide his / her source of information. A quotation of that sort should not just say, "book xyz" but should tell when the book was published, what company published ,etc. so that another person can locate a copy of that book and look at the page number and see that exact text. Terryeo 18:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Terryeo's analysis on this issue. That's why I, for one, provide publisher, year of publication, and city of publication for all my book sources, in line with Turabian citation style (see Lawyer for an example). --Coolcaesar 20:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is difficult to find that book in Pakistan, I have to visit city main library. However, suppose that the book really has written exactly what is mention in the jizya article. But still the point is that if an author says something with reference to Quran then he should specify the relavent verse of Quran. However, apprently from the text he has not. Furthermore, other users and me not able to find any such verse. Hence it is possible that the author has made that comment because he might be biased or mistaken. My question is that If a source "A" says that the fact "k" is obvious from source "B", whereas fact "K" is never mentioned in source "B" then WP:RR should not allow to mention that fact. I wish if I could improve WP:RR regarding this. --- Faisal 20:05, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Faisal has got a point. To summarize (there seem to be a few misunderstandings along the way), in our entry on jizya, the Muslim poll tax for non-Muslims, someone has cited an article by the Arabist S.D. Goitein, who makes a statement about the Koran. Faisal feels that Goitein's assertion is false. Per our policy of No Original Research we can't add our own opinion if any statement is true or not. What I would recommend is to get the article (by interlibrary loan) and try to find out what verse of the Koran Goitein bases his interpretation on. Then I would get a reliable Koran commentary and add that interpretation, saying "Goitein asserts ayat such-and-such to mean this-and-this, whereas Muslims on general interpret it to mean that-and-that." Dr Zak 21:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree. An unverified piece of information may be removed by any editor. The citation is to a large, thick volume of many, easily identified verses. Per WP:CITEMisplaced Pages:Verifiability#Burden_of_evidence he would have the right to remove the verse to the discussion page where it could be properly attributed, or dropped from the article.Terryeo 16:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's right, Terry. If you look at the article, it says "Goiten says 'in the Koran's own words, the jizya is intended to . . .'" Assuming that Goiten is a reliable source (and he apparently is) and that he actually says what he article says he says, that's it. There's nothing in WP:V that says we check to see whether claims in otherwise reliable secondary sources are themselves verifiable.TheronJ 17:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Being perhaps the greatest authority on the issues of jizya, S.D. Goitein is most certainly right here. It is the predominant interpretation of the Quranic verse 9:29, namely its last word saghiruna ("to make small" or "to belittle"), that jizya is an expression of humiliation and submission. There are plenty of Muslim scholars and academic historians, apart from Goitein, talking about that. Faisal has made much ado about nothing, just because he feels uneasy about this aspect of the treatment of non-Muslims under Islam. Pecher 21:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Faisal has stated something about both the content and the attribution. His statement that the verse should be cited is 100% correct. Chapter and verse should be cited. WP:CITE#How_to_ask_for_citations If the editor had cited the verse, the discussion would not have reached this page. Since Faisal has questioned, surely other readers of the article likewise have questioned. I would say one of two things should happen. Either the quotation should be better cited or the quotation should come out. Misplaced Pages doesn't want confusing articles, Misplaced Pages wants easy to understand articles, articles that will pull more people into contributing. Terryeo 16:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Terry, the article does cite to chapter and verse of the Goiten book cited. (See footnote 11 here).TheronJ 17:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your support Terry. TheronJ the Quranic verse needs to be citied. I never said that Goiten is not cited properly but the Quranic verse that Goiten is referring is not citied. Now if the User:Pecher says that Goiten is refering to version 9:29 then see the differnt translations of 009.029. These translations only mean that fight until non-Muslim accept jizya, that is they submit themselves to pay jizya. It does not remotely means to humiliate non-Muslims. If you do not believe me than I could present different tafsir regarding that verse meaning. Also the Goiten text presented in the article jizya does NOT mention 9:29 verse of Quran. --- Faisal 20:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The article currently says that "Goiten says the Koran says X." It's his opinion being reported. If a contrary opinion can be reliably sourced, can't you just add "Authority Z interprets it otherwise"? Gimmetrow 21:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Here is my analysis of this ongoing debate. First of all, someone (preferably a Wikipedian with a strong track record of good edits who has access to a really big humanities library) needs to go verify the content of the 1963 article to make sure it actually says what the current article text credits Goitein with claiming. If Goitein did say all that, then the article should remain the same per Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. The NPOV and Verifiability policies (both core Misplaced Pages policies beyond debate) imply that it is not relevant whether Goitein's analysis was actually right or not, as long as his viewpoint is accurately summarized. I know Faisal does not like that conclusion, but that is how the two policies have been applied to all controversial issues since the early days of the Misplaced Pages project, and I highly doubt the Wikimedia Foundation will reverse its position now.

Second, if Faisal is correct that Goitein was just plain wrong, then it should be easy to find at least several citations to articles by distinguished Islamic scholars arguing for the opposite interpretation (it's been a long time since 1963). At that point, Faisal can then edit the article to say, "Goitein argued this in 1963, but more recently a number of scholars has argued otherwise." But if Faisal can't find any citations to the contrary, then perhaps it may be likely that Goitein was correct. --Coolcaesar 21:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Faisal began making those claims on Talk:Dhimmi; after several editors demonstrated to him using a really impressive array of sources that he was plain wrong, he moved to Talk:Jizya. Now he has migrated here. It's a resolved issue for everyone but Faisal, who keeps pushing his original research; discussing it again is a waste of our time. Pecher 22:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur: there's no reasonable indication that Goitein's scholarly assertion is wrong or wrongly represented, except for a wikipedian's POV. --tickle me 22:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing me in the direction of those talk pages. As Americans say, Faisal is clearly two cards short of a full deck. I'm not sure if he is capable of understanding the philosophical system of epistemology which Misplaced Pages operates under.--Coolcaesar 23:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposed text on Electronic mailing list archives

Dear Friends: in light of the short discussion above, I propose to add the following to the guideline:

Electronic mailing list archives

Electronic mailing list archives are collections of email messages related to a given topic. If such a list is moderated by a scholar or hosted by a reputable organization (see the venerable H-Net: Humanities and Social Sciences Online, they may be cited and quoted with care. Only if you can verify that the author of a post is a scholar on the subject you are editing should you use these sources.

Treat Electronic mailing list archives with the same level of reliability as you would a television interview of the scholar. Very rarely are posts juried or edited by a scholar's peers.

Does anyone object? If so, is it because you do not feel any email-based source is unreliable or that you would like the wording changed? --CTSWyneken 14:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I object. Online sources are inherently unreliable. Email in particular is extremely unreliable. --Coolcaesar 17:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me start by saying I have mixed feelings about this. The posts by scholars to this list are very interesting and can be quite helpful to us. In fact, this would be an expansion of the "use with caution" advice already in the guidelines concerning internet sources. On the other hand, we've all seen poor materials on the internet.

When I've expressed such misgivings, after I've been accused of trying to supress the truth, it has been pointed out that lists like the H-Net ones are moderated by scholars, verified by the organization, and are about as trustworthy as it gets on the internet. (they've been around since before the World Wide Web had images). 8-) I suspect they will ask: "are you saying that a post by, say, Shelby Foote to the Civil War list is unreliable?"

My interest in this is closure. Some are quick to remove info from these sources, others are inclined to be incensed at their removal. So, we need closure on it.

OK, enough ramble. Coolcaesar, could you explain why a set of lists such as H-Net are unreliable, given they have safeguards in place? Anyone else have an opinion? --CTSWyneken 17:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

As a long time (12 years) manager of an academic mailing list, I find that the contributions are widely varied in quality. Off hand, they're better than the general run of the internet, and when the interaction is good, they often turn up some details that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to find in the published literature. Since there are also loonies and trolls out there, I think the proposed guideline has the proper level of caution and should be approved. I would add to the guideline that "all citations must include the name of the person being cited and the subject line of their message." We don't want to invite citations to a general discussion on x-list. --SteveMcCluskey 02:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Excellent point! I'll add it. --CTSWyneken 10:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

My concern is that most such lists are not mirrored in enough places like physical books or magazines as insurance against retroactive censorship or modifications. I am mindful of Milan Kundera's famous opening passage in the Book of Laughter and Forgetting about the guy who was airbrushed out of all the history books in Czechoslovakia. With an electronic source hosted in one or two places, it is much easier to modify the "authoritative" copy, and unlike conventional books or periodicals, there is no paper copy to check the computer copy against. In contrast, it would be much harder for a hacker to vandalize the ProQuest newspaper database and get away with it, since there are literally thousands of copies of the New York Times back issues in libraries all over the world on microfilm. As for rare items in university archives, they are guarded by tight security procedures, as I can personally attest to: I have visited archives at Stanford University and UC Berkeley. Anyone who vandalized archive items would be quickly identified and prosecuted.

Yes, there is some danger of this. Although, as a librarian, I'm more worried about natural disasters, the folding of hosting organizations, technology foul ups, and physical items crumbling into dust or back up tapes degrading. But the same can be said of doctoral dissertations. For most of these, there may have been at most a dozen copies ever made, including microfilm, and only the school of record and the microfilmer are ever serious about preserving them. I'm not sure we would want to eliminate them as sources, however, since they are as juried as anything gets.--CTSWyneken 10:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am also concerned about the fact that posts to such lists do not go through the editing and polishing that is required of most books and journal articles. However, I concede it might be all right, if there is no other source available, to cite such a post to support the statement that "Famous Professor contends that Event A occurred because of Cause B."

But I think such citations should be relied upon only as a last resort where there is no other source available, since it is so easy to find out what most scholars think about a specific issue by simply searching their published works through JSTOR, LexisNexis, ProQuest, EBSCO, or InfoTrac (even if most people don't personally subscribe, they do live close to a community college which probably subscribes to at least two of these databases). And I think that it is simply unacceptable to rely upon such citations as the primary ones in an article. They should always be provided sparingly in combination with citations to more reliable sources. --Coolcaesar 05:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a good point. We should be clear in the text that such are resources of last resort. But I think, if we put in a paragraph that these are OK, they will be used as first resort, rather than last. Do you have language that we could add to allow editors to challenge such citations with something like a "do your homework" edit summary? --CTSWyneken 10:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Revised proposed text

Electronic mailing list archives

Electronic mailing list archives are collections of email messages related to a given topic. If such a list is moderated by a scholar or hosted by a reputable organization (see the venerable H-Net: Humanities and Social Sciences Online, they may be cited and quoted with care. Only if you can verify that the author of a post is a scholar on the subject you are editing should you use these sources. All citations must include the name of the person being cited and the subject line of their message.

Treat Electronic mailing list archives with the same level of reliability as you would a television interview of the scholar. Very rarely are posts juried or edited by a scholar's peers. Cite list archives only when no other source is available. --CTSWyneken 12:55, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Looks good; go with it. --SteveMcCluskey 20:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK with you, Coolcaesar? Other folk? --CTSWyneken 20:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I sort of concur. Though I would prefer: "Cite list archives only after making a good faith effort to determine that no other sources of superior reliability exist." The point is to encourage people to exhaust other sources before relying upon electronic mailing lists. What I'm afraid of is some idiot citing an entire article to list postings he/she found through Google, and then when challenged, claiming that the article is "well-supported." --Coolcaesar 23:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I can well understand that fear, having seen nearly that bad several times before. I'll substitute your line for my third. Anyone have other ideas? --CTSWyneken 00:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

ArXiv preprints and conference abstracts

I'd like to add a statement to the discussion of sources in Physical sciences, mathematics and medicine that ArXiv preprints and conference abstracts are not peer reviewed publications and should not be cited.

I know there are good pieces on ArXiv, but I've seen a number of ArXiv papers cited on Misplaced Pages that seem to be little more than self-published pieces that would not be likely to be approved by a refereed journal.

Conference abstracts pose a similar problem, where controversial topics are accepted for a conference but get shot down as soon as they're presented (or soon after).

I think an encyclopedia (even one on the internet) can hold off citing the good preprints or conference papers until they get published.

Before rushing on with this, I'd like to see the reactions of people involved. --SteveMcCluskey 03:11, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I concur with you on this. Published papers are reliable; preprints are not. --Coolcaesar 05:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, here's a first draft; I see it as going after the subsection "Which science journals are reputable?"

==== arXiv preprints and conference abstracts ====

There are a growing number of sources on the web that archive the full text of articles before they have been published, and publish abstracts of papers to be presented at conferences. Editors should be aware that preprints in arXiv collections may or may not be accepted by the journal for which they were written — in some cases they are written solely for the arXiv and are never submitted for publication. Similarly, papers presented at conferences may not merit publication after presentation at the conference.

For this reason, arXiv papers and conference abstracts should be considered to be self-published and should not be cited as reliable sources in Misplaced Pages articles until the results appear in a peer-reviewed publication. Abstracts and arXiv versions of published papers may be cited.

--SteveMcCluskey 20:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an important point, and a case that attempted to cite self-publication on arXiv is presently on WP:DRV. I would observe, however, that many publishing organisations provide abstracts through their search engines, and that these, being the abstracts of peer-reviewed, published work are citable. I say this because in some cases, abstracts are available to Joe Random, whilst the full text is available only to those with a subscription. -Splash - tk 21:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Reliable source but false claims -- Part-2

I need to post few more problems. Just like I already said that WP:RS need to be changed so that every claim of otherwise reliable source (a book) is accepted by default but it should be valid claim. Hence, It is not important that a Book ABC has said something, it is also important that if that thing is right or not. See following The Dhimmi article marriage-section.

"Islamic jurists reject the possibility that a dhimmi man (and generally any non muslim) may marry a Muslim woman. As some Muslim scholars put it, marriage is like enslavement, with the husband being the master and the wife being the slave. Even as dhimmis are prohibited from having Muslim slaves, so dhimmi men are not allowed to have Muslim wives. Following the same logic, Muslim men were allowed to marry women of the People of the Book because the enslavement of non-Muslims by Muslims is allowed."

Now Obviously according to above text MOST of the scholars does not think that wife is salave of husband. However, all the scholar agrees that a Muslim women cannot marry any non-muslim man. So the above text leave a question in the mind of any fair user. What is the logic of not marring non-Muslim wowen by MOST of the scholar. Why the logic of SOME scholars is presented above and hidding the logic given by MOST. The WP:RS should empower users to remove such propoganda statements without even going though the trouble of finding the book and verifying the existance of wrong claim in it. --- Faisal 20:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, Misplaced Pages is not in the business of verifying truth, only accuracy. As long as a book did say something and the book is accurately cited for that proposition in a Misplaced Pages article, the article is fine, even if some people do not like the proposition. The neutral point of view policy implies that Misplaced Pages is a secondary source that merely summarizes the content of debates in a neutral fashion. But it does not get involved in them.

For example, as a lawyer, I am deeply offended when people say there are too many lawyers (a common complaint in America), because statistics from the American Bar Association and the federal government show that there are not enough lawyers to enable all Americans to properly enforce their legal rights. However, when I rewrote the Lawyer article, I specifically went out of my way to identify and cite several sources for that proposition (see the Criticism of lawyers section of the article). Do I believe those sources are correct or unbiased? Of course not. But they do exist, so I cited them. --Coolcaesar 22:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I can only add here that Faisal has misrepresented the marriage section as it currently stands, which is easy to verify. Pecher 22:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

1. S.D. Goitein in Evidence on the Muslim Poll Tax from Non-Muslim Sources, Journal of the Economic and Social History of the Orient 1963; Vol. 6, Pp. 278-279.
2. Friedmann (2003), pp. 161–163