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4th paragraph of lead

The lead is supposed to be an overview of the article. The fourth paragraph of the lead is a description of Sheldrake's popularity in the new age movement. However, the body of the article does not contain any content regarding such. I recommend that the 4th paragraph be deleted as per WP:LEAD. Thoughts? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Good point, Annalisa Ventola. I suggest we either add a section about New Age reception or delete the mention in the lead. I think the lead is too long as is and support deleting the comment. It's a blurb that contributes little to the following sections. The Cap'n (talk) 00:46, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

It appears that Sheldrake is commonly thought of as a New Age writer, so the bit in the lead was just meant to clear up a common confusion. Considering that many people will just read the lead, if they are there to learn about that cool New Age writer then perhaps they should be informed that he's not so New Agey. In any case that was the rationale; it doesn't matter much to me. vzaak (talk) 00:59, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

His popularity among new age readers can be covered in the section on his books. Whether we just move the content from the lead down, or copy the content from the lead and expand with more detail would be the question. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm looking at the references and I see one author referring to him as such without explanation, and another author saying that Sheldrake is admired by New Agers but not a New Ager himself. These references are conflicting and don't really provide much to expand on. Unless someone else wants to take a shot at it and provide a section on "Sheldrake the New Ager" to justify mention in the lead, I suggest deletion. However, if there are enough sources to establish Sheldrake as a New Age author - and say something substantial about it - I would certainly be curious to read it. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 01:51, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The first two refs describe him as a New Age author. The next two refs say that New Agers like him. The penultimate ref clarifies that he's not a New Ager. The conflict is the interesting part. He's called a New Age author, but he's not a New Ager. There's more New Agey stuff to find, such as Alan Sokal referring to "a bizarre New Age idea due to Rupert Sheldrake" .

The New Age bit was moved to the Books section once; it can be moved again, no problem. Or it can be expanded in the body, no problem. But I don't see a good reason to remove this clarification of a common misconception. vzaak (talk) 02:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The new age stuff isn't in the body of the article. Therefore it shouldn't be in the lead. The references are not the body of the article. The new age stuff needs to be in the article, or it needs to be deleted from the lead. I'm in favor of putting it in the article. I prefer a separate section rather than burying it in with other stuff. Lou Sander (talk) 02:48, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

If we're looking for New Age stuff, it's worth looking at "The Physics of Angels" by Matthew Fox and Rupert Sheldrake. One of the Amazon reviews says "this book is a bizarre amalgam of New Age speculation and exploration of the writings of Dionysius the Areopagite, Thomas Aquinas and Hildegard of Bingen" From the small amount I was willing to read it seems like a fair assessment. Dingo1729 (talk) 03:13, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Has anyone here actually read the book? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 03:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

This article already establishes Sheldrake as an Anglican. If you're going to establish him instead as New Ager - there really ought to be a clear basis for doing so - keeping in mind that this a WP:BLP, of course. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

The lead formerly said something like: "People call him new age. He disagrees. After some evolution of his religious beliefs, he's an Anglican." I liked that, because it seemed to summarize important stuff about him and his ideas. I didn't check if it was in the body of the article (where it needs to be if it's in the summary/lead). Lou Sander (talk) 04:37, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Is it common for BLP's to pigeon-hole someone into a particular belief system in the lead? Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know. I don't see pigeon-holing here, since he is apparently open about his beliefs. It's like somebody saying "Moe sounds a lot like a Wiccan," and Moe saying "No, I'm a Methodist." Lou Sander (talk) 04:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

One doesnt have to be a New Ager to be popular amongst New Ager reading public. Just because one is a New Ager doesnt mean that one is not also Methodist (or Anglican or whatever). But what exactly is the point under discussion for inclusion or removal from the article? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:40, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Annalisa Ventola, the point of the New Age sentence is not to establish him as a New Age author. The point is to clear up the fact that although he's called a New Age author, he's not a New Ager. The original wording said "not a New Ager but a committed Anglican", which I thought was better. vzaak (talk) 12:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Clarifying the New Age bit

• The purpose of this sentence is to dispel the common misunderstanding that Sheldrake is a New Ager. He is not a New Ager, despite what the New Age movement thinks. This is important to mention somewhere in the article, whether in the lead or not I don't care. In addition, I would rather restore the original wording to make it absolutely clear: "...not a New Ager but a committed Anglican".

• The refs are very clear on this issue. This information is not the least bit controversial or contentious; everyone can agree that clarifying that Sheldrake is not a New Ager is a good thing.

• You can easily find the BBC episode in by googling 'Sheldrake heretic'. The youtube video you will find is likely a copyright violation, which is why no link is given.

vzaak (talk) 14:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

It's good that most editors are keen to clarify this, and seem to feel the same way, but we still need to get the sourcing right. What we have is not "very clear", and if you think 28 is OK then you need to re-read the policies on reliable sourcing. The idea of giving an obscure reference because the source used might not be legitimate is as ridiculous as the suggestion that we've given enough of a hint for the reader to find the video on Google if they use the search term that you'd use. Maybe we should include that search engine hint in the ref, and point out that we're not sure we should be quoting this and that's why we're not giving away too many details -? I did actually want to check that information before I commented, but even with a desire to track it down, I don't expect to waste my time trawling through an entire video to find the comment that is supposed to support our content. If we are going to draw reference from broadcast programmes then we need full publication and transmission details, and we need to reference the time-frame of the footage referred to (just like we need to reference the source of quotes by pages in books and not just book titles). There needs to be a rethink of the approach taken towards sourcing on this page, because the silly insistence that some obviously adequate references cannot be allowed is looking very hypocritical set against the argument that other, obviously crappy references, are perfectly fine. Tento2 (talk) 15:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

It's the first google hit. New Age is at 19:35 - 20:00. Linking to a copyrighted video would prevent Good Article status per wp:good article criteria. The ref isn't even needed. I see nothing wrong with it myself, but if you don't like it then take it out, no problem. (Obviously it must remain for the paragraph which discusses the broadcast.) That he has New Age followers is not a contentious or controversial matter. In any case, none of this bears on the other references in the article. vzaak (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake gives a link to this video from his own site where he lists his books and recording (http://www.sheldrake.org/B&R/videostream/) so I would presume the one he links to is legitimately obtained and that we should link to the same source at http://www.nautis.com/2012/03/heretics-of-science-rupert-sheldrake/ rather than the dubious Youtube video. I'll put the details here for reference since no one can edit the page at the moment:

Heretics of Science, episode 3, 'Rupert Sheldrake – Morphogenetic Fields', broadcast 19 July 1994. Runtime 30 mins. Publisher: BBC. Producer: Tony Edwards.

We don't need to give a link to the video if we provide the full publication details, although it is useful for the reader that we do. To be completely covered it would be best to keep this reference separate from the other reference to the same video and quote the remarks given around 19th-20th minute inside the footnote: "In America, Sheldrake found himself attracting disciples from the New Age movement. Morphic resonance appealed to their mystical philosophy of life, which they saw Sheldrake, a scientist, appearing to endorse." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tento2 (talk • contribs) 08:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Straw Poll

Please indicate your preference with "Support", "Oppose", "Can live with"

Option 1- Remove from the article the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers)

• oppose fully sourced, reflecting an important aspect of Sheldrakes real world impact. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose - that is, I oppose a suggestion to remove the comment entirely, though I definitely agree it should be removed from the lede until it is developed in the main body of the article. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose per Tento2, above. Lou Sander (talk) 12:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support - though I would be fine with the material returning if it becomes a substantial part of the article at a later date (I find it curious that the opposers above are saying the same thing). Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• support - How New Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support -- Gunther is an appalling source, he is a self-published author, making his opinion irrelevant here, and the source fails WP:RS. Frazier's reference should actually be attributed to Ron Amundson's article "The Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon" which actually comes from the Skeptical Inquirer vol. 9, 1985, 348-356 who mentions Sheldrake in passing, with no sources. There is no indication that Amundson represents the New Age, or that we even no what he means. The use of the passive voice (ie "has been described") suggests the sentence is used as a form of "weasel word" phrase. --Iantresman (talk) 22:21, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose It's supported and it's important. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose per TRPoD. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:18, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• support I don't see how his standing among New Agers is a relevant enough topic or has enough content behind it to justify mentioning in the lead. The segment feels ad-hoc and out of place. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Option 2- Move the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers) to the body of the article as part of the intro under Rupert_Sheldrake#Books

• can live with -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose - as it stands, its not appropriately sourced. Ref 28 is inadequate and gives no way for the user to verify that what we have stated is correct; and the short comment "although Sheldrake has not endorsed these interpretations" fails to summarise the points the author is making in ref 27, so that needs more attention and development. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose, in general agreement with Tento2. There are many problems with the references in this article, e.g., finding references that only tangentially apply, then using them as hammers to hit Sheldrake with. An example of that is in the one in Rupert_Sheldrake#Books, which slams him on peer review. Peer review doesn't apply to books, as is said in the reference itself. Lou Sander (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• 'oppose as per the comments on inadequate sourcing above. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, Again, how new Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with It really belongs in the lede, but if we need to move it out to keep the lede small, that's acceptable. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• supportThis is where the discussion of New Age reception belongs; it's information pertaining to his books, not a section in itself. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Option 3- Copy the 4th paragraph in the lead (about his following among New Agers) to the body of the article as part of the intro under Rupert_Sheldrake#Books and look for more sources to more fully expand this aspect of Sheldrakes impact

• support-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:53, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support- refs need looking at. I have no idea what ref 28 substantiates because it's impossible to check from the reference information given. I can see that there is more to the issue than a reader would gleam from our content, when checking what the author of ref 27 has to say about the matter. Tento2 (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose, in general agreement with Tento2. Many Refs here are problematic. The material in Paragraph 4 summarizes important stuff about Sheldrake. That stuff needs to appear somewhere in the article, in expanded and properly-referenced form. Just finding more sources won't suffice, particularly if they are tangential, don't apply, etc. Lou Sander (talk) 13:12, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• oppose - again, if someone can expand this with better sourcing, then it may be relevant to the article, but not as it stands. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 13:49, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose, Again, how new Agers view him is irrelevant. Pretty much anyone talking about human potential is seen as a New Ager to new Agers. Tom Butler (talk) 17:07, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• support --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with Prefer the lede. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• OpposeIf it's already been said in one place it shouldn't be copied in another. It deserves to be said, just under his books, not in the lead. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Option 4 by Barney the barney barney - the new ages stuff should be mentioned - this is referenced and needs mentioning, but I don't think it's important or relevant enough to be in the lead. IMHO it should go with the "origins of morphic resonance" section.

• Support - sounds sensible to me. Annalisa Ventola _{(Talk | Contribs)} 04:23, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose -- I think it belongs in the lede but I guess I can live with it elsewhere in the article, if it works better that way. MilesMoney (talk) 04:35, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support I was under the impression that none of the options allowed the content to remain in the lede. Don't feel strongly about where it goes; only that iit needs to come out of the lede and be developed within the article to good article standards Tento2 (talk) 07:19, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support. The fourth paragraph could be moved in its entirety to the end of the "origins of morphic resonance" section. Editors could expand on it there if they think it is important. If and when that section expands, probably it should be summarized in the lead, maybe replacing what is now in paragraph 4. Though WP:AGF is still working for me here, I have a concern that editors might use this opportunity to demean Sheldrake in his BLP, along the lines of "look at these stupid beliefs and the stupid people that hold them, and here is why they are stupid (with references)", or to remove the material unilaterally because "I don't think this stuff is important". All that is avoided if editors discuss their edits before making them. Lou Sander (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• Conditional support - All of what skeptics call "fringe" articles are likely to have a "New Age" following. It is fine to mention it in the body as long as it is not used in an another attempt to make Sheldrake look silly. My support is also on the condition that the subject is not used as another place to pile on with numerous, repetitive references. Tom Butler (talk) 15:15, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
• can live with It seems more logical to place it under the section on his books, but any edits that clean up that lead are A-OK in my book. The Cap'n (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

The Cap'n: If one looks at the "origins and philosophy" section, one sees a bunch of Eastern thinking stuff, Jung stuff, etc. I'm thinking that the new age stuff is similar to that, and that all those things belong together. "Origins and philosophy" could do with a better name, IMHO -- maybe something that includes Eastern, new age, etc. Renaming might be part of cleaning it up and expanding it. Lou Sander (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

clarifications about why you placed your !votes where you did

• Tom Butler (talk · contribs) - can you clarify "how new Agers view him is irrelevant."? If he was merely spouting his nonsense in his basement he would not be notable. However, he is not merely spouting it in his basement, he is publishing books and living off the lecture tour based on the fact that many many many new agers view him as something they are willing to pay for. Without the new agers= no books about his concept. Without the books about his concept =no reaction from the mainstream academic community that it is nonsense. No reaction from the mainstream community = fail Notability and no article. It seems that the opinions of New Agers are vital in the equations.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:57, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

You are assuming there is a coherent New Age community. There is not. It is more a set of mostly unrelated ideas which come together as the search for personal improvement. Frankly, saying "New Agers support him" only demonstrates a lack of understanding about the culture. Look instead for a broader desire for information about things outside of mainstream thought that is not provided by mainstream academia.

Surly, you have seen the surveys. "Poll: Majority Believe In Ghosts" is just one of them. Search for "believe" in our Media Watch and you will find links to many more such surveys. people buying the books are seeking better understanding. "New Age" is something of a red herring. Tom Butler (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

So you again are looking at coverage of his popularity from an alternative framework than what the mainstream coverage of his popularity does.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:32, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't originally going to take part, thinking my relative inexperience in how a wiki page comes into being means my opinion wasn't worth much, but then I thought, no, I have as valid an opinion as anybody else. Tom Butler said "You are assuming there is a coherent New Age community. There is not. It is more a set of mostly unrelated ideas which come together as the search for personal improvement." The sceptic community is no more organised than that. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 20:34, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

we should stay focused on how the sources cover the subject of the article and how we can accurately reflect what the reliable sources present. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:56, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• One reference is self-published and fails WP:RS. The other reference is from a skeptic and is clearly using "New Age" as a weasel word. --Iantresman (talk) 22:28, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

• I just changed my vote after realizing that I'd written oppose to all three options originally given. Didn't mean to do that, my mistake after cutting and pasting text to make sure I got the formatting right (sorry). To clarify, I'm opposing option 1, which I interpret as meaning that we take the comment out of the article altogether, and not just that we take it out of the lede. (Taking it out of the lede is a no brainer as it breaks the policy on lede content needing to briefly highlight the most important points in the body of the article). I'm opposing option 2 on the assumption that it means simply moving the content but leaving the text as it is. I'm supporting option 3 on the assumption that it means moving the content, but also giving it critical assessment and development, both in terms of what is said (to get the arguments across correctly), and the references used to support it.

I hope I have interpreted the poll options correctly. If I am confused then maybe other's are too. Tento2 (talk) 07:14, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Protest

Tumbleman Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement

Edit wars

(Tom Morris please note.) There have been many very recent edits to the article, some of them extensive. None of them have been discussed here in advance. I believe that some of them would have broad consensus, but they have been reverted. I believe others would only be supported by those who made them, possibly in violation of the the article ownership policy. Unfortunately, they tend to remain in the article. Rather than getting involved in edit wars, or letting the bad edits stand, all edits would best be discussed here before they are put into the article. If your ideas and writing are good, they will have no problem being accepted by other editors. If they are NOT good/accepted, they shouldn't be in the article. Lou Sander (talk) 16:38, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Funny that Lou, I think that the edits without any broad consensus have been reverted, and those recent small changes have been taking things a little more centrally, towards your point of view. Any way, the bad edits have gone, and I would support letting things stand as they are. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 16:52, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

the only way to mandate that changes go through a pre approval process is to edit war to get the article locked. I wouldnt really recommend that as a strategy. Strong application of WP:BRD might achieve your goals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:05, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Roxy, it all depends on who is deciding that " the bad edits have gone." For instance, TRPoD deleted a line that would have added balance noting that citations were needed. It would seem less possessive if he-she-it had added the proper citation tag and discussed it here. Tom Butler (talk) 17:10, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

are you stating that editors here are not acutely aware of WP:BURDEN and the need to provide inline citations for all content going into the article? and that in this controversial article about a living person questionable materials should remain in the article and be tagged? I will point you to WP:BLP. I will grant you that in the best of all worlds, I would have followed up that removal with a talk sections stating "I removed X because it was not properly sourced" . However, had I done that for my recent corrections, this talk page would have had an additional 6 sections about minor edits. so i am not sure that is the best of all possible worlds, either.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:26, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

is an absolutely clean cut example of WP:OR - unreferenced, vague, clearly does not summarise the sources, and very much wishful thinking. Please, if we these "others" exist they need to be documented properly. Please provide the references. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:59, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --Iantresman (talk) 18:12, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Barney: Your points could possibly be better made if they were made about a proposed edit. All of us could look at them, evaluate them, and respond to them if they merited a response. Lou Sander (talk) 18:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Lets just trace the timeline here.

• The article stood as this
• An IP made a BOLD edit.
• Which was REVERTED
• The IP RE-REVERTED and added additional content
• I began making a series of individual edits at the problematic content added by the IP. , etc.
• Barney fully reverted the IP
• Vzaak has made a number of incremental changes

If there is anything specific from the BOLD edit of the IP that you wish to discuss as actually having potential for meeting the content requirements, then please feel free to DISCUSS it. If you have any objections to the incremental edits that Vzaak has made, then you can either REVERT the not so bold changes, and we can DISCUSS, or you can jump right the the DISCUSS.

but discussing edits that I made that were in the article for about one minute and have been undone is probably not going to help the article progress. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:19, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

"some of this is good"

BOLD edit by the IP that was REVERTED and RE-REVERTED under the edit summary "some of this is good" Lou Sander (talk · contribs) re reverted the BOLD edit by the IP with the edit summary "some of this is good" . However he passed over the DISCUSSION portion where there would be consensus gathered about which portions exactly are "good" .

Please identify which portions you think are "good" so that we may discuss. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

now moot side talk about what the process should have been

First subsection of Books

Due to historical accident, this subsection has two supportive quotes. The Roszak review was originally misapplied to the first book; Roszak actually reviewed the second book (both books were re-issued years later in green covers with "morphic resonance" in the title). After discovering this I fished around for something else to counterbalance Maddox, and found Josephson. However the Roszak review was kept and applied to the second book. Thus this section now depicts a false-balance "controversy", when there isn't actually a controversy. There's a social/public controversy -- thanks in part to Maddox -- but not a scientific one.

The Roszak review is inexplicable; when New Scientist saw themselves quoted on the cover of Sheldrake's book, their reaction was "Did we say that?" and "Eh?". Since this anomalous review is not representative of the reactions from the scientific community, there would seem to be undue weight on it. (Missteps by New "Darwin Was Wrong" Scientist are not without precedent.)

I don't know how to fix this in a non-apparently-contentious way. vzaak (talk) 22:15, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Just leave this here for a day or two and see what people say about it. Lou Sander (talk) 23:39, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I think we should start by abandoning the cherry picking that Sheldrakes publishers did. Start with Roszak 's summary showing one aspect of the reception at the time of the initial release "" then place that in the context of Back then, Roszak gave Sheldrake the benefit of the doubt. Today, attitudes have hardened and Sheldrake is seen as standing firmly on the wilder shores" . Then got into the fact that the reprint that that has the two quotes picked from Roszak on its cover, and then the New Scientist again with their pointing out that the comments on the jacket are from the original review 20 years earlier. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

discussion of process

Red: You may have some good points here, but people might not read them when you start by accusing a publisher of cherry picking. If your points are good, they don't need that. Lou Sander (talk) 00:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

When the publishers choose to use one review quote on their book cover and use one from 20 years ago on the cover of a book that is supposed to be a "fully revised and updated" version - to call that anything BUT "cherry picking" would be obfuscation of nearly criminal levels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:37, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Red: You may have some good points here, but people might not read them when you start by accusing a publisher of cherry picking, then go on and on about why it's justified. If your points are good, they don't need that. Lou Sander (talk) 01:02, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

its seeming to me that you are taking every possible opportunity to divert the discussion in every section away from content. is that on purpose? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Red: No. In this particular small section, I'm trying to let an editor know, politely, that they may have some good points, but that it is hard to get to them when that editor's presentation starts with accusations. The accusations may or may not be accurate, but the act of making them draws attention away from the points the editor is trying to make. Lou Sander (talk) 16:55, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

back to the main topic

Vzaak: I've read your material about the historical accident, but I don't know what you are talking about. There's a lot of history, and a lot of description of your personal thought processes, but for the life of me, I don't know what you are suggesting. It may be something wonderful, but it's just too hard to figure out what it is.

Regarding the "first subsection of books", I can't tell precisely what you are referring to, but I imagine it includes the material headed A New Science of Life and The Presence of the Past. I notice that the material about A New Science of Life contains six lines about the book itself, and eleven lines about a single editorial that was written in response to its publication. Those eleven lines contain fourteen references and four wikilinks, all seeming to be dismissive of Sheldrake's work. I do not see that as balanced coverage from a neutral point of view. Sheldrake has many thoughtful critics; I don't think we need to quote and explain every one of them. Better might be to summarize. Lou Sander (talk) 17:40, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:VALID (yet again) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Must our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?

Let's try to come to consensensus about this topic and how it might apply to this article. David in DC (talk) 02:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

i am not sure what you are suggesting here: are you suggesting a straw poll on the oft mentioned "one article about Sheldrake - one article about his theories" split? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Is Sheldrake even notable without his fringe theories? If not, then his biography will be a stub, while all the real meat will be in Wacky fringe theories of Rupert Sheldrake or whatever it's called. MilesMoney (talk) 03:01, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting anything other than what I asked. If the answer to the question "ust our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?" is no, that will guide the rest of how we structure the article.

If it's yes, that will too.

FWIW, I think the POVFORK idea is a bad one. I think there IS tension between BLP and FRINGE. And I think the solution is to keep the lead, early life and education sections factual, without derogatory comment and the books and public appearances sections replete with sources providing the context that the content of these books and appearances, "morphic resonance", is not science. I also think it might be useful, on a page seeking consensus, to foreswear words like wacky or hogwash. Fringe and psuedoscience convey the same meanings. David in DC (talk) 11:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Describing morphic resonance in the lead without including criticism of it would not be in line with WP:NPOV, in particular WP:PSCI (no need to even mention WP:FRINGE here). (Could we please not dramatize this as "derogatory"? It is criticism. You wrote the criticism paragraph in the lead, and I presume you didn't write it for the purpose of being derogatory.) vzaak (talk) 12:38, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

The answer to the vague theoretical question is "All content about every subject must be treated according to policies". Given the eternal sprawl of this talk page I really do not see any possible advantage of initiating yet another theoretical discussion to encourage people to vent yet again their opinions in a forum and format that cannot possibly lead to any real determination of consensus. In all of the endless muck on this page, the only thing that has lead to any actual consensus on article content is the highly organized Talk:Rupert_Sheldrake#Straw_Poll. Any "discussions" that lack form and structure are surely simply going to devolve into yet another time sink and waste of precious pixels. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think the focus should be on specific and concrete issues. vzaak (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree with vzaak on that. There are some difficulties with accomplishing it on this page. For example, when editor A says "I think we should discuss specific and concrete matter X," editors B, C, or D, or some combination, say "That's a really stupid idea. Don't you know M, or N, or P? And by the way, I think you are really trying to do Q". Lou Sander (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

allowing WP:SOUP is part of the problem on this page. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:12, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

David in DC: I believe that what you are trying to do is exactly what you say in the title to this section. I agree with your idea that we shouldn't use nasty words. Maybe it would be useful to seek consensus that Sheldrake is a living fringe theorist (or something like that), and that there is widespread virulent criticism of his ideas among scientists. IMHO, nobody who edits here seems to doubt that. Also IMHO, some editors seem to think that other editors DO doubt it. Further, IMHO, some editors here seem to be weak in the skills of coming to consensus. Getting some sort of basic consensus would help on that end, too. Lou Sander (talk) 17:56, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Some of these responses are regrettable. Others help shed some light. As to vzaak's point, I did indeed write the paragraph in question, which I think is, incrementally, better than what came before. I think the "Note" device does a great job of summarizing the various grounds on which Shaldrake's concept draws criticism.

I'm sad that experienced wikipedia editors find the basic question I started this thread with "theoretical." It's not theoretical at all. It's a real-world problem that occurs every time we write about a living person who is not a saint. I agree that articles should be written according to policy. When policies conflict, civil, nuanced editorial judgments must be made.

WP:BLP is a core policy - at the top of the WP:BLP page, it says: "This page documents an English Misplaced Pages policy, a widely accepted standard that all editors should normally follow. Changes made to it should reflect consensus."

WP:Fringe theories is not. at the top of the WP:FRINGE page, it says: This page documents an English Misplaced Pages content guideline. It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply.

WP:NPOV, like WP:BLP, is a core policy and bears the same top-of-the-page legend as WP:BLP. Skepticism is a point of view.

I do not expect to convince editors who dismiss even the usefulness of the question I've posed. But it does make me dispair about how far we've fallen from an ethic that is supposed to make sure that the dignity of living people should be of paramount importance. It's very hard for me to see how anyone might be misled by an article that seperated the biography of a person from full-throated, sourced criticism of his theories.

I'll repeat, I crafted the paragraph that vzaak says I did, and I think its enough, especially as improved by vzaak's note. But, I think the "conservation of energy" and "perpetual motion" stuff is simply unnecessary to a biographical lede about Rupert Sheldrake. It screams "Not only is his principle notable theory non-science, he also believes in a whole bunch of outre things and really ought to be dismissed as a nut job." And it reflects a level of vehemence that makes this talk page a black mark on wikipedia. David in DC (talk)

^see, your concerns are actually specifically identifiable and actionable. the vague "Must our treatment of this living fringe theorist differ from our treatment of his theories?" is not. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:03, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:PSCI, also known as Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Fringe theories and pseudoscience, is a part of WP:NPOV; there's no need to refer to WP:FRINGE in this case. The policy (not guideline) is also common sense, because not mentioning how certain fringe ideas are viewed by the scientific community would have the effect of misinforming readers (even if it's a sin of omission rather than a sin of commission).

For the lead, is the dogma paragraph your only objection? vzaak (talk) 19:58, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the nonsense about the perpetual motion machines/conversation of energy belongs in the lead section either. The science as dogma nonsense however does. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:19, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but I don't know of any viable alternatives. If we remove the conservation of energy bit and leave just the "series of dogmas" bit, then it's not clear to the reader what "series of dogmas" really means. Is it the central dogma or what? Mentioning conservation of energy efficiently pinpoints what Sheldrake is getting at. We have but one reaction to Science Set Free from mainstream science -- the brief New Scientist review -- and "woolly credulousness" / "uncritically embracing all kinds of fringe ideas" are not appropriate for the lead. Thus we can't address "series of dogmas" generally, so we have to do it specifically. vzaak (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the example is a good idea, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

David in DC "When policies conflict, civil, nuanced editorial judgments must be made." Not all editors are capable of that. Not all editors are even capable of sticking to a subject, or of thinking clearly about things outside their own feelings and beliefs. That used to upset me more than it does now; implementing THIS was a lot of help. Lou Sander (talk) 21:04, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

any decision about what to do when "policies conflict" will depend entirely upon the sources and the policy and the suggested article content at the time "policies conflict". No general theorizing about "what should we do when policies conflict?" will ever be appropriate to any specific time when it happens.

The only way this article will advance is specific content with specific sources, being applied per specific intersections of appropriate polices as determined by the content and the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:17, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

• The "it's only a guideline" argument is not one I expect an established editor to make. David, if you want to make a specific proposal, then make it. General questions don't belong here. This page has had enough irrelevant distractions. IRWolfie- (talk) 23:29, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

If the only thing one draws from my posting is "its only a guideline"... well, it suggests an interesting blindness to the rest of what I've typed. The diktat "General questions do not belong here." is silly. Of course they do. This particular "general question" defines the different approaches to editing being followed by those editing from a skeptical POV and those editing from an approach that elevates concern for BLP over the mythical danger that someone could read this article and fail to understand that morphic resonance is not reliable science. Belief in that myth betrays a true disdain for the elementary intelligence of our readers.

We do not have to beat our readers over the head, at every possible instance, with the skeptic's POV.

The desperate, zealous need to do so says more about the editors editing from a skeptical POV than it does about Sheldrake.

"is not one I expect an established editor to make. David," is a tautology. It is self-evident. I will never meet your expectations. And I praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster every day that this is so.David in DC (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

It eventually comes down to practical questions in any case. Is the dogma paragraph your only problem with the lead? How could it be fixed? vzaak (talk) 06:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Indefinite semiprotection

Because of topic ban violations by IP editor(s) as detailed in this AE thread, this article is semiprotected as an arbitration enforcement action under the authority of WP:AC/DS and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary sanctions.  Sandstein  07:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Determining level of consensus

How should the mainstream view of "science has become a series of dogmas" be addressed in the lead?

Do we pick a dogma such as conservation of energy and provide the mainstream view of that? Or do we quote from a source that that directly address the issue, e.g. "woolly credulousness"? Or something else?

questions and clarifications about people's positions

• We shouldn't address it at all. We should say somethng like "Sheldrake questions several of the foundations of modern science, arguing that science has become a series of dogmas rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena." We could possibly give an example or two, such as conservation of energy, with maybe a few words about why he questions it/them, for the purpose of being more particular about his challenges/thoughts. There is no need to defend the foundations of modern science, or any one of them (they stand in mighty eminence on their own, and the link to conservation of energy, if there is one, will let readers see for themselves how foundational it is). There is no need to point out how stupid Sheldrake is for questioning such obvious truths. All that stuff, if it is done at all, could/should be done in the body of the article. Lou Sander (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Lou, I think you are slightly mis-stating Sheldrake's position... he does not so much question several of the foundations of modern science, as he questions the validity of modern science-manufacturing infrastructure (decisions on grant monies / decisions on university tenure / et cetera) which is often used to stifle particular lines of research, including Sheldrake's own morphic resonance, but also historical subject like perpetual motion machines (the conservation of energy thing), and so on. I have no topic-knowledge of Sheldrake, but from my quick read, I doubt he thinks conservation of energy is wrong, but rather, wants the $$$cash$$$ to pursue his research into morphic resonance, and therefore is making a more general argument, namely, that politicians and deans and the textbook review committee of the local school board should *not* have any say in what research projects scientists ought, or can, undertake. For a modern controversy, unrelated to Sheldrake or perpetual motion, where both sides claim the other side is mis-using the cash-grant-power and dean-policy-power to Push An Agenda, see anthropogenic catastrophic global warming. For an older but of course still ongoing controversy, see the argument that professors of philosophy and religion and similar subjects should be granted lifetime tenure, so as to insulate them from getting their funding yanked by some petty dean or grant-making-agency, should the professor's publications fail to toe the current line that politicians and pooh-bahs demand. Anyhoo, although Sheldrake definitely is making his scientists-are-too-dogmatic claims from a definite POV stance, which would result (in theory) in giving Sheldrake's work a direct cash infusion, should his argument be successful in changing the infrastructure... it is not fair to say "Sheldrake questions modern science". That's a paraphrase, which ends up being very misleading. HTH 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• Erm what is this and why is this in such a strange format. Discussions should be accompanied by sources. We don't make decisions in the absence of sources, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:25, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
• We are stating Sheldrake's views, not claiming that science really is dogmatic. All we need do is point readers to the article on dogma for more details. The perceived dogmatic nature of science is not a question considered by science, but by the philosophy of science. --Iantresman (talk) 09:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Stating the views of Sheldrake, as documented in his books/blog/whatnot, is fine, per WP:ABOUTSELF. However, the article has to make clear *that* they are Sheldrake's views (as distinct from mainstream biochemist views or whatever the context demands), and furthermore, has to be careful about not giving any of Sheldrake's particular (sourced&documented) views undue weight relative to each other. If he makes an offhand comment about $foo at some point in his career, it should not be blown up into a huge portion of his BLP article... unless the comment blew up into a huge Real Life Controversy, as documented by WP:RS repeatedly mentioning said comment. Definitely a complex balancing act. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• I agree completely, Lou Sander. That particular paragraph reflects what I feel is a distracting trend in the lead to treat Rupert Sheldrake's BLP as a platform to defend a perceived attack on the legitimacy of science. The reference to his views contradicting basic principles of physics is a good case in point; none of those views are described without an immediate refutation. I think the underlying assumption that needs to be challenged is that one man's biography page is the best place to justify scientific consensus. I read the sources and sections regarding those views and they appear to simply be specific instances of Sheldrake's broader position of questioning accepted scientific conclusions. As mentioned above, the links to the topics being referenced will provide the reader with any tangential information they want, so there's no need to spend undue and inappropriate time debunking someone's views on their own BLP. As far as sources go, sources don't make arguments, they support them; one could make the sources on this page say many different viewpoints. The fact that sources exist that deride Sheldrake's views does not mean they need to be given equal weight to actual biographical information and referenced in the lead. By FSM's great noodly appendage, let's strip down this lead! The Cap'n (talk) 10:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE/WP:NPOV is that we provide the mainstream contextualisation in the article. We don't expect people to hunt references down to get it, IRWolfie- (talk) 07:25, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure. But there's a difference between differentiating Sheldrake's view on X from the mainstream biochemist's view on X, where the topic X is in fact important to the BLP article about Sheldrake (i.e. that Sheldrake has spent considerable time and energy and published-pages devoted to topic X thereby proving it is an important part of his views), and by contrast mis-using the BLP article to bring up Y and Z and a hundred other things, merely for the purpose of knocking them down. See my comment above, concerning giving-topic-Z-undue-weight-relative-to-the-bulk-of-Sheldrake's-work-during-his-lifetime. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• I don't think we need to go into great detail here. The lead should summarise the article. It may be worth mentioning that he claims science is a series of dogmata and that this is not uncontroversial. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree, per my comments above. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Archiving

There were 54 threads open, so I archived the older ones and left 7. Bot seems to not be working, I tried to fix the template, not sure if it will make any difference, IRWolfie- (talk) 23:23, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Biologist

David just added this title. Since the source was an article Sheldrake wrote, I replaced it with a news article about the stabbing.

Under the parapsychologist refs: the first ref is from Nature and says "parapsychologist" without mentioning biologist/biochemist/etc; the second ref is from New Scientist and says "biochemist-turned-parapsychologist"; the third ref is from Nature and says "former biochemist".

It would seem that he is viewed as a parapsychologist and former biochemist by his peers, while he views himself as a biologist. I thought the situation before David's change was a good compromise: call him a biochemist/cell biologist/plant physiologist for the years shown without explicitly saying "former biochemist". vzaak (talk) 06:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Biologists research biology and publish that research as part of the scientific process. Sheldrake hasn't done any biology since the mid 1980s. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

People in a field do not need to do research or publish in journals to be members of that field. Consider teachers of biology in small liberal arts colleges. Lou Sander (talk) 12:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The University of Binghamton refers to him as a biochemist, and the University of Cambridge also acknowledges his Ph.D as does the University of Edinburgh,. He is also referred to as a biologist by the University of London, the University of Arizona, and the Open University, What academic sources do we have that describe him as anything else? --Iantresman (talk) 12:54, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The fact that some sources are inaccurate in their language doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should be. Biology teachers are biology teachers, but Sheldrake doesn't teach any more either. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:57, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I thought we went with the sources. The part in the article I supplied that calls him a biologist is not in his voice. It's in The Ecologist's explanation of who he is. Written this month. "A biologist does biology" is not and observation about what the source says. David in DC (talk) 13:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The job of an editor is to say things appropriate to an encyclopedia, from a neutral point of view, and based on published sources. There is judgment involved. If it is appropriate to call him a writer or a biologist or a parapsychologist, it's not necessary to comb through lots of sources to find people who call him that. Neither is it necessary to list every thing that every source has called him. Lou Sander (talk) 13:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

David, nobody is contesting that there are sources that say he's a biologist. But of all the sources, the weakest ones would be those written by Sheldrake himself. Editors tend to ask authors how they wish to be described. Using an independent source makes your claim stronger, not weaker. (Did you realize I didn't delete "biologist", but only substituted an independent source?) vzaak (talk) 13:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a biologist is "An expert or specialist in biology; a student of biology" which is met by Sheldrake's doctorate. Those who call Sheldrake a "parapsychologist" are not independent peers, but skeptics who are clearly trying to discredit him. I would venture:

"Sheldrake is an author with a Ph.D in biochemistry, who has undertaken research in biology, and more recently in the field of parapsychology."

--Iantresman (talk) 15:11, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That's not bad, but maybe could be better. I wish I had the words. In the first short paragraph I think we need to say that he's an author and lecturer (his main recent and notable activities, briefly stated). We should clarify that by somehow saying he's a legitimate scientist (from his education and early work) who has moved into areas that are legitimately challenged by legitimate scientists (parapsychology is one of them, but there might be better, less controversial, words to describe what he's into now). That might be enough for the first paragraph. Lou Sander (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is not notable as a biologist. As has been pointed out, he massively fails WP:PROF. It would be somewhat like describing Maggie Thatcher as a chemist, when her chemistry career did not make her notable, but something else did. Barney the barney barney (talk) 17:52, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is notable as a person. A biography of Margaret Thatcher that made no mention of her training as a chemist would need an edit adding that fact.

Kevin Trudeau is a convicted scam artist. An article about him without mention of his role in the world of billiards would be incomplete.

Dr. Joyce Brothrs' article would be incomplete without a reference to her stint as a boxing expert on a 1950's game show. David in DC (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Providing proper context is necessary, i.e. former biologist/biochemist/plant physiologist. He no longer works in academia. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:30, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I would suggest:

"Sheldrake is an author and lecturer with a Ph.D in biochemistry, who has undertaken research in biology, and more recently in the field of parapsychology."

Our subsequent paragraphs then make it clear that he is no longer in academia. --Iantresman (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• Ian, individuals at a university using a label does not mean the university endorses it. Universities do not review subpages belonging to institutes and individuals. For example, you have again cited Brian Josesphon, well known for his support of cold fusion, bubble fusion, telepathy and homeopathy "researchers", and his "mind-matter project" as "the university of Cambridge. That is highly misleading as you are very much aware, IRWolfie- (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

• The Perrott-Warrick Lecture by Dr. Rupert Sheldrake is published by the University of Cambridge. There is no suggestion that the University officially endorses Sheldrake's or Josephson's views, and no University would endorse the views of any lecturer. I would imagine that if the University thought there was any impropriety, adverse publicity, or even "pseudoscience", then they would drop the listing for the lecture like a hot potato. The University shows Sheldrake as Dr. Rupert Sheldrake because he has a doctorate in biochemistry from the University of Cambridge, and no matter how many times editors wish to associate him (or his colleagues) with minority views, he will remain a doctor in biochemistry.
• You will also note in my suggested wording above, that I avoided using an academic job label, in deference to the very criticism you are making. --Iantresman (talk) 21:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Somehow we need to convey the idea that he has legitimate scientific credentials, especially since his scientific work raised doubts that led to his infamous hypothesis and to his book that challenges many scientific dogmas. It is not helpful to lecture other editors, or to point out that his scientific credentials are insufficient in themselves to make him notable. Lou Sander (talk) 21:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. This is a biography. If he has a doctorate, or thinks dogs are capable of telepathy, as long as we have WP:RS, we should include it. Tertiary academic qualifications are a significant and relevant part of any person's biography. --Iantresman (talk) 21:41, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Er, not indeed. The opening sentence needs to explain WHY he's in the encyclopedia. Claiming that he's a biologist when he doesn't meet the criteria for academics (WP:PROF), is just yet more wishful thinking from fans. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:50, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:PROF states whether an individual is a notable academic for an article, not whether individual facts are included or excluded. But independent sources suggest otherwise (note that notability is not temporary, per WP:NTEMP):

• Gale's "Notable Scientists from 1900 to the Present: N-S" (I can see no axe to grind), states: "Rupert Sheldrake, a British biochemist..", putting him in context before noting his controversial hypothesis.
• New Scientist, which some editors used as a source to support his description as a "parapsychologist" has also not only described him as "Cambridge biochemist", but appears to have endorsed his research, and another New Scientist article describing Sheldrake as "an excellent scientist"
• An Oxford University Press book published only 2 years ago (2011) described Sheldrake as "research biologist and biochemist" --Iantresman (talk) 22:20, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

This is all reminiscent of Tumbleman. It's not productive to discuss personal reasons why Sheldrake's legitimate credentials shouldn't be mentioned. Lou Sander (talk) 22:35, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Repeat. Just because some people are sloppy and inaccurate with their descriptions doesn't mean we have to be.

• He's included in the Gale book, but so what? That's their editorial judgement - our standards are WP:PROF - and Sheldrake fails on them.
• The New Scientist quote is from 1982, back then, he could be described as a scientist with a straight face. Also, we have seen from the positive review of Sheldrake's book that New Scientist was a little more tolerant of such things back then - after all they are principally concerned with entertaining their readers, not publishing original research.
• The final book is a book on Ethnomusicology, which I cannot see of being any relevance to this article whatsoever. This really is scraping the barrel, isn't it now?

Don't cherry pick references. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:42, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The notability guideline does not apply to article content; it is used to "decide whether a topic can have its own article". See Misplaced Pages:Notability#Notability guidelines do not limit content within an article.

"Repeat. Just because some people are sloppy and inaccurate with their descriptions doesn't mean we have to be."

"Don't cherry pick references."

You should take your own advice. Articles on Misplaced Pages are based on reliable sources. The University of Cambridge is a reliable source, as are the other universities referenced above. You don't get to cherry pick the references that support your view while excluding the ones that don't. --Joshua Issac (talk) 22:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Going not by !votes or !vehemence, but rather by mention in reliable sources, I think Joshua Isaac above and ScaryMary below make the best policy-based points. The rejection of nearly every citation to reliable sources for "biologist" --- both here and in the archives Mary's been directed to --- adds up to "any source that says so is wrong, he's a psuedo-scientist, dammit. He's left science." The source you cite is wrong. Or it's too old. Or it's unreliable.

Every answer in the book except: "Gee, I'm quite certain he's not a scientist, but my steadfast certainty is not a reliable source. A sufficient number of unrelated, recent, reliable sources having the temirity to disagree with what I personally know to be the WP:TRUTH have been proffered; I guess I'll bow to the rule that we hew to the sources. Our work in making sure readers know that "morphic resonance" is not biology is pretty complete. There's ample room in the "book" sections to refute Sheldrake's theories and place them in a context far removed from modern science. By gum, I think we've done it so well and carefully that, as a matter of biography, it's O.K. to keep calling him a biologist, the same way William Shockley still gets to be called Doctor and Kirk Douglas still gets to be called "actor". David in DC (talk) 05:34, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Neither the nodal damage to Julie Andrews' vocal nodes, nor Linda Rondstadt's Parkinson's render them former singers, or ex-singers. And you'd best not call very-late career Sinatra a former singer or an ex-singer. At least not in some of the circles I've been known in which to travel. Try that last one at a Teamsters convention and let me know how it works out for you.

Editors with a skeptical POV should re-read the totality of the sources they're rejected both on this current talk page and in the threads being shoveled off into the archives Mary's being asked to search. Are they really all too unreliable, too old or too plebeian. Isn't it just barely possible that what they are is contrary to the WP:TRUTH David in DC (talk) 05:55, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The question is: What do we do when faced with conflicting sources? Discussing the "controversy" in the opening sentence is not feasible, of course, so we must decide. The problem of "picking the sources you like" cuts both ways. One criteria would be to use the strongest, most respected sources, and on that criteria Nature is the winner. Moreover, the article already treats the matter delicately, calling him a biochemist/cell biologist/plant physiologist in the years active while avoiding descriptions like "former biochemist". vzaak (talk) 06:41, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

If a reliable source says he is a biologist, Misplaced Pages can say he's a biologist. If another says he is NOT a biologist, the sources are in conflict, and Misplaced Pages needs to be careful about calling him a biologist. If another RS says he is an Anglican, but says nothing about biology, Misplaced Pages can call him both a biologist and an Anglican; the sources do not conflict. If a reliable source says he is a really stupid man, or has bad personal hygeine, WP:BLP says Misplaced Pages needs to be careful about mentioning it. Lou Sander (talk) 13:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

This is not serious...

it's simply a gift to anyone who think it doesn't hurt to lighten things up a bit. It's also the awesomest pseudoref ever. David in DC (talk) 13:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Can we all post funny links that involve Sheldrake now? IRWolfie- (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I doubt we all can. Some of us appear to be lacking any discernable sense of humor. And I suspect that the real question is "May we...?" In any event, I'd suggest limiting such postings to this one thread.

Congrats on resisting canine Pavlovian response for a full 7+ hours. David in DC (talk) 02:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Personally I'd prefer if people didn't post whatever they thought was funny related to Sheldrake here as that could possibly constitute a BLP violation, depending on the specifics, IRWolfie- (talk) 11:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

IRWolfie, methinks your spidey-senses are incorrect, in this particular instance. WP:BLPTALK and also the various exceptions listed in WP:TALK are careful to delineate that you can make you opinion known on talkpages, even if your opinion is extremely unpopular... but that if you say something that might be considered Slanderous or Libelous about a Living Person, either it must be *very* reliably sourced or it must be removed immediately. Technically, all David has done in this section is link to an external site, and they are the ones claiming such-and-such. (Well... presuming that David is not the author of the article to which he linked... if he is, then he'd probably be violating BLPTALK, if the case was taken to a jury trial.) And that *is* what WP:BLPTALK is all about -- avoiding getting the wikimedia foundation, on which all our servers depend, involved in a legal battle with high-powered lawyers claiming defamation. Merely linking to external criticism, without even describing the contents of that external site (beyond calling the site a pseudoref and not-serious), cannot legally be actionable as grounds for libel. Contrast with WP:COPYVIO, where there are some laws that merely linking to a youtube video which violates the RIAA or the MPAA or the Disney Cabal's government-granted monopoly privilege on cartoon mice with round black ears can get the WMF drug into court on conspiracy-to-infringe charges. That said, quite a lot of the discussion *elsewhere* on this talkpage -- not by David anywhere that I noticed but by several others -- definitely crosses the WP:BLPTALK line, and must please be removed immediately, and not put back until and unless a *really* WP:RS can be cited as saying so, in exactly so many words. Hypothetically, for instance, calling some credentialed scientist, say, 'wacky' or the equivalent, could get the wikimedia foundation sued into the ground. Resist the temptation. Gracias for your attention, carry on, thanks for improving wikipedia, folks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

New Age sources

Perhaps Sheldrake is New Agey after all. In The Rebirth of Nature he addresses "the topic of New Age consciousness", and Sheldrake himself says he was influenced by New Age. The source in the article mentions the Hundredth monkey effect, but Sheldrake is only sceptical of that particular anecdote, not the effect itself. The source in the article also makes a guess ("seems to be a sceptic") about Sheldrake's take on "critical mass", which shouldn't be reported as fact. Maybe the New Age bit should be removed until this is sorted out. vzaak (talk) 13:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Removing it would lessen people's understanding of Sheldrake. Lou Sander (talk) 14:02, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Timing is everything. People's perspectives can (sometimes) change given changes in the world around them. in '88 sources wonder if Sheldrake appreciates his New Age fan base with the implication that he sees it as a distraction. It may be necessary to parse his personal acceptance of being "one among the New Agery" or just seeing them as "a market that will buy his works" based upon particular points in history. (of course, such will depend upon what the sources say - with self-identification being an important lens.)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:24, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Parapsychologist? Er NO! He's a Biologist AND a scientist!

I am very puzzled by this wiki page. May I ask why Mr Sheldrake is given the job title parapsychologist in the introduction, when it clearly states he is a biologist and scientist in his CV and on various websites. Even the ones that are critical of his views, don't deny the qualifications and titles that he has. I will change the intro tomorrow unless you can give me some jolly good reasons why not. You might not agree with his thinking, but his qualifications and experience, I would have thought need to be recorded correctly in an on-line encyclopedia, unless of course, there is some weird agenda going on?
here are the references to that effect:
BBC Biologist http://www.nautis.com/2012/09/bbc-belief-interview-with-professor-rupert-sheldrake/
Philosophy Now http://philosophynow.org/issues/93/The_Science_Delusion_by_Rupert_Sheldrake
The Independent:
"If Rupert Sheldrake was simply a commentator, sniping from a distance, his arguments might be swept aside. But he is a scientist himself, through and through: a botanist with a double first from Cambridge; a Fellowship at Clare College; a Royal Society Fellowship. For some years he was principal physiologist at the International Crops Research Institute for the Semi-Arid Tropics (ICRISAT) in Hyderabad, India, where he helped to develop new varieties of pulses, key sources of protein."
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-science-delusion-freeing-the-spirit-of-enquiry-by-rupert-sheldrake-6285286.html
The Guardian ...note is says on their site he is a BIOLOGIST and author but in case you want to argue here's the link http://www.theguardian.com/profile/rupert-sheldrake
Even the US Science Mag gives him the proper credit http://www.sciencemag.org/search?site_area=sciencejournals&y=12&fulltext=rupert%20sheldrake&x=38&journalcode=sci&journalcode=sigtrans&journalcode=scitransmed&submit=yes

Best wishes Veryscarymary (talk) 19:10, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

scientists do not cling to magical proposals. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Mary. I wonder if you would read this Talk page, and the archives before you start adding stuff. Much of what you propose has already been covered. --Roxy the dog (quack quack) 19:59, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Scientists are quite capable of investigating subjects that others consider pseudoscience, as is evidence by the University of Edinburgh's Koestler Parapsychology Unit, the University of Arizona's Division of Perceptual Studies Princeton's now closed PEAR. Ridiculing people is uncivil, unscientific, and unbecoming a Misplaced Pages editor. --Iantresman (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Mary is correct in expressing her point and concern. "scientists do not cling to magical proposals." is not helpful. We are not editing in a vacuum. Like Mary, other editors will be coming by from time to time and some will ask the same questions, probably leading to edits. That is what I mean by the article not being stable as it is.

I have to agree that it is correct to say he is a biologist. Editors here do not get to decide otherwise just because they don't like his quest for new knowledge. Tom Butler (talk) 01:17, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

so you think that scientists DO cling to magical to magical proposals? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Should you actually read what I said, you will see that I was complaining about how your sarcasm is unnecessary. If you want to insult the person, then go ahead and say he is thinking magically. I fell confident you can find a reference for that, just as I am sure you will be able to make such a statement a permanent part of the article since skeptics will see that it helps to assure that people will see Sheldrake as they do. Tom Butler (talk) 01:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Of course scientists cling to magical proposals. Clarke's three laws are all you need know to understand this bedrock truth.

And before you dismiss Clarke as a science fiction writer, please check out who calculated the necesseary measurements to put a sattelite in geosychronus orbit. Or the history of how Robert Heinlein foiled any efort to patent the "water bed". Or Asimov's successful war to retain his tenure as a biochemist at BU.

You also might want to refresh your memory about the magical belief Albert Einstein devoted most of the 20th century to proving, the absolute and fatal flaws in quantum theory.David in DC (talk) 05:52, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I would go for something like this, that covers all the bases:

Alfred Rupert Sheldrake (born 28 June 1942) is a British biologist who now researches, writes and lectures in the field of parapsychology and the philosphy of science, that have been the subject of controversy.

--Iantresman (talk) 09:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ian, that sounds fine enough to me and is much more respectful. There are PLENTY of scientists who have investigated and explored areas outside 'mainstream' thought, but to ignore and blatantly change their job title and qualifications is, to my way of thinking, insulting and demeaning.
Ian, would you please change the entry to read as you've suggested, it sounds a much better proposal. Even Galileo gets a better write up than this, and he was suggesting heliocentrism was the way forward and look how he was treated 'in his day' but was recognised much later. It's a similar issue with Mr Sheldrake's research, which I hasten to add IS research...
List of scientists who have investigated controversial issues:
George de la Warr in 1930
Walter Kilner
Oscar Bagnall
Nikola Tesla
Dr Edwin Babbitt
Dr Dean Radin
William Roentgen
1777 George Christian Lichetenberg
1800+DuBois
John Elliotson, founder of the University College Hospital London
Baron von Reichenbach
Wilhelm Röntgen
Dr Harold Saxton Burr
Dr. Frederick Northrop
Dr Leonard Ravitz
Hans Driesch
Nikolai Kalashchenko
Dr Louis Langman
Dr Victor Adamenko.....and more Veryscarymary (talk) 15:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
p.s. I am also highly confused why you/someone has described the poor man as a parapsychologist, and given 'new scientist' references from 2004 and 2006, crickey, this is 2013 and the references I have supplied are from current, peer publications, even the Independent doesn't call him a para-anything...and why only one source of reference???? that's terribly biased:( shame:( Veryscarymary (talk) 15:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Veryscarymary: Like you, I am confused why they/someone(s) describe him as a parapsychologist. I think I have some insight into it, though. Lou Sander (talk) 15:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Invitation to comment

All editors are invited to comment on How should the mainstream view of "science has become a series of dogmas" be addressed in the lead?

The question is posted HERE. There is a lot of interest in this topic, but so far only three comments that directly address the question. Lou Sander (talk) 12:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

please fix

Stupid page-protection.

Philosopher Martin Cohen, writing in The Times Higher Educational Supplement wrote that "Sheldrake pokes enough holes in such certainties to make this work a valuable contribution, not only to philosophical debates but also to scientific ones, too." although he did note that " a bit too far here and there".

To:

Philosopher Martin Cohen, in The Times Higher Educational Supplement, wrote that "Sheldrake pokes enough holes in such certainties to make this work a valuable contribution, not only to philosophical debates but also to scientific ones," although Cohen did note that Sheldrake went "a bit too far here and there."

Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 16:12, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

 Done Thanks vzaak. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

POV screw-up

Stupid copy-protection.

In 1996 Sheldrake was prominently cited in Alan Sokal's preposterous paper which became known as the Sokal hoax.

To:

(empty string)

Rationale. Sentence is clearly POV, in the worst way. Zeroth off, the section itself, see below. First off, Sokal was *not* acting as a notable scientist, he was falsely using his credentials as a notable hard scientist (cf Sheldrakes biochem credentials) in order to expose the fact that various psuedo-scientists in the post-modernist-literature portion of academia (no relation whatever to Sheldrake). Second, the lack of any context in this one-sentence snippet is incredibly misleading. For those unfamiliar with Sokal, he is a physicist who hates post-modernist politics-masquerading-as-social-science. To expose the latter group as pretend-scientists, Sokal purposely wrote up a crazy, nutty, anti-scientific screed, prettied it up with 109 footnotes, supported by 182 citations. Sheldrake got two out of 182 cited works, and mention in support of three out of 109 footnotes. Thomas Kuhn got one cited work, but was used in support of two footnotes plus the main body of the text. Other citations were to Bohr, Einstein, Gödel, G.H. Hardy, Heisenberg, and I'm tired of looking so I'll stop at letter-H. Sheldrake must be a genius! Or maybe he belongs with Bourbaki, Derrida, and Feyerabend. Sheldrake must be... whatever those people archetypically represent! The point of the Sokal hoax was that the well-respected post-modernist journal where Sokal submitted his nonsense, called him back and asked him to cut out some of the references and footnotes (to save space in the journal for more advertising perhaps), but never called him on any of his utterly-crazy reasoning. They liked the conclusions, Sokal was a respected authority, they published the paper in their journal. It is a great story. It has no bleepity bleep place in this article, unless somebody has an exact quote from Sokal stating that he specifically chose Sheldrake because a) first possibility aka Sheldrake is a genius just like Einstein, or b) second possibility aka Sheldrake was included along with Derrida et al to fool the post-modernists. Anything less, take the sentence out. (No, the current 'citation' which is to a book about the hoax-experiment that Sokal wrote, failing to cite a page number, is not good enough.) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

p.s. Entire section strikes me as definitely POV -- note the section title is "interaction with notable scientists" as distinct from of course "interaction with other scientists" ... when of course the NPOV thing to do would be to move the sentences about Bohm, Durr (another person cited in the Sokal hoax btw), and Wolpert to the existing section about Sheldrake's academic career, where it belongs. You can quibble about whether to split the academic-career section into a pre-Hyderabad sub-section and separately a post-Hyderabad sub-section, or just to separate them by paragraphs. But splitting the stuff into an 'academic career' section and then a separate section called 'interactions with notable scientists after he became a leper to the true scientists' is utter crapola. Please fix. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

you mean things like Sokal explaining his hoax "I was made aware of Sheldrake's bizarre theories" and the other recently added third party sources that note the prominent place that Sheldrake's "morphic fields" play within the Hoax paper? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that is exactly what is required, methinks: a sentence written in *seriousness* by Sokal (i.e. not from the hoax-paper), with a page-number. But what is the page-number for your cite? (Aside: I hate google books. Not only does it not give page-numbers, it hides the page you are trying to see.) Here are the quotes that seemed relevant, but I don't have the page-numbers, for reasons previously mentioned. I'm also not sure which of these sentences are Sokal being serious, and which of them are Sokal making things up to spoof the post-modernists, and in fact whether these are even Sokal, and not him quoting somebody else (with the exception of the "Ross cites" bit which is clearly a quote-of-somebody-else).

...there is no evidence that 'morphogenetic fields' (in Sheldrake's sense) actually exist... Rupert Sheldrake's theory of 'morphogenetic fields', though popular in New Age circles, hardly qualifies as 'in general sound'. To call it 'occassionally speculative' is a massive understatement.(see note#77)... note#77. Biologist Rupert Sheldrake posits that there exists an as-yet-undiscovered 'subquantum' interaction linking 'patterns' throughout the universe. ...Ross cites approvingly Rupert Sheldrake's eccentric notion of "morphogenetic fields... operating on a subquantum level, linking every pattern in the universe".

Can somebody please provide some useful *complete* source-info which gives a page, and gives something Sokal says, which is most-definitely-not from the hoax-section, but rather from the serious-explanation section. Thanks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

"Prominently cited" refers to the section of Sokal's paper "Quantum Gravity: String, Weave or Morphogenetic Field?", the several mentions of him in the footnotes, and the citations. vzaak (talk) 18:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't take long to create an account. Sokal affair is relevant. I bet you can pick something else to have a frivolous moan about though. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Ignoring all the ranting by 74, I feel that being referenced in the hoax really doesn't say much. There are a lot of good papers referenced along with Sheldrake. The ancillary references make it clear that Sokal has a low opinion of Sheldrake's work, which might just be mentionable. I think the sentence should be removed, but I don't care all that much. Dingo1729 (talk) 20:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Ahh, wikipedia, where editors collaborate and are WP:NICE. Vzaak, yes, that's the hoax-paper, which has 'several' mentions of Sheldrake. Read what I wrote before: counts are relative. More crucially, *being* in the paper puts you in great company, or terrible company, depending on which side your work falls. Misplaced Pages editors cannot synthesize assumptions here; citation needed. However, the title of the paper does not include morphogenetic -- the title is "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity" as you will see from the link you provided... which, of course, I also provided. And skimmed before providing it <grin> to count how many mention Sheldrake warranted compared to others, plus read it in full back in the day, the previous millenium now for all you kiddies lurking in the talkpage shadows, when it came out. The thing you mention is one word from the subtitle of one section of the hoax-paper:

1. Intro (untitled). Einstein.
2. Quantum Mechanics: Uncertainty, Complementarity, Discontinuity and Interconnectedness. Einstein.
3. Hermeneutics of Classical General Relativity. Einstein.
4. Quantum Gravity: String, Weave or Morphogenetic Field? Einstein, plus "biologist" (referring to Sheldrake but not by name... of course, if we count all uses of 'relativity' Einstein scores higher)
5. Differential Topology and Homology. Kuhn.
6. Manifold Theory: (W)holes and Boundaries.
7. Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Liberatory Science.

So from that alone, Sokal's hoax-paper relies on Sheldrake (in the morpho section) about as much as it relies on Kuhn (in the homology-section), and relies considerably less on either than it does on Einstein (who is mentioned by name six times in the morpho section alone plus dozens of times elsewhere). Point being, the sentence in the article cherrypicks Sheldrake from the hoax-article, and is utterly POV, and nasty dishonest POV at that. If you feel the need to give Sheldrake a nasty dishonest smackdown, do it on your own blog, not on wikipedia. Just the facts please, NPOV, WP:BLP, all that jazz. And yes, except for considering myself to rant (I prefer the far more dignified WP:WALLOFTEXT as indicative of my sure-fire ability to stay fully within policy guidelines -- they even named one after my style of editing), I agree fully with Dingo1729. If we do use an ancillary ref in the article about a BLP, it needs a page-number, and no synthesizing adjectives out of nowhere. Thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

"Nasty dishonest POV" and "nasty dishonest smackdown"--those are, IMHO, well-turned phrases, and well-applied to much of what goes on here. Lou Sander (talk) 21:43, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Well, if that is true, then, whomsoever is responsible for trying to make WP:BLP articles and WP:BLPTALK pages into their personal POV playground, might I strongly suggest please take a cold shower, look at themselves in the mirror, and decide whether they care more about wikipedia servers being shut down indefinitely, or more about WP:RGW. I show up on the page for the first time, and have to get somebody else to fix the obvious grammar-check-fail because the page is indefinitely censored... and it looks like the sockpuppet you banned last time was in fact WP:AGW. Disruptive, sure, edit-warring, sure, but were they correct on the merits? Look at the edit-summary. Try and think long-term, here, folks. This is not junior high. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

some early dates are missing that should not be assumed

No mention in the article (at the moment -- I didn't check the edit-history) of what year Sheldrake became an undergrad, grad student, and postdoctoral researcher... what were the durations of these efforts? Is there overlap between his post-doc research, and his 1967-1973 biochem work? Was he a professor/TA/RA, or what exactly? Statistically, if he was born in 1942 he prolly was undergrad from 1960-1963, grad from 1964-1968, and postdoc for 1969-1971, but such assumptions are not what wikipedia should depend on. Presumably somebody here already knows the answers. Please fix the intro-paragraphs to reflect the years of university as a student ("After N years of college, from 1967 to...") which led up to his biochem jobs -- and specify what position slash title he held where appropriate. Most of the details should go into the early-life-and-education section, of course. What year (frosh/sophomore/postdoc/YYYY) did he get the fellowship to Harvard? Thanks 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Citation sources for Sense of Being Stared At section

I added a reference to a confirmatory study from the Journal of Consciousness Studies and cited it. From my reading of the Misplaced Pages page on reliable references, the JCS meets the criteria for a first-tier source (a peer-reviewed journal with prominent academics on the editorial and advisory boards). My reference was removed; whereas references to disconfirmatory reports from second-tier sources (i.e., magazines; Viz. Scientific American, Skeptical Inquirer) are allowed to remain. This to my mind creates the appearance of bias. I suggest my addition be reinstated. User:Blacksqr

I've reinstated the reference as it's clearly relevant. Please do not remove again until discussing here first. Alfonzo Green (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

@Alfonzo: I appreciate the quick action, you reinstated the right reference but attached it to the wrong text in the article. You restored my edit to the Seven Experiments and Dogs That Know section, which I didn't request, rather than my edit to the Sense of Being Stared At section, to which the reference belongs. So right now, the restored edit cites the wrong reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blacksqr (talk • contribs) 21:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I've seen the "there may well be something going on" Wiseman quote before, and it's just out of context. Wiseman is talking about issues with the experiments themselves. He goes on about Sheldrake, "I think as is so much of his work, it’s very easy to look at it and go, yeah, a priori, that looks like there’s a cased something there, but things need to be done with a little bit more rigor and in this instance, that hasn’t happened." vzaak (talk) 22:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

1. McGrath, K. A. (1999). World of biology. Gale.

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