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Shortcuts to sections

... don't work, so personally I'd propose to omit WP:NPOVUW entirely from the policy page. Maybe it should better be proposed for MfD or so, per Misplaced Pages:Redirect#When should we delete a redirect?, reason 2, that is: "confusing" (it creates the confusing, and incorrect, idea that the shortcut actually links to the UW section, someone not knowing that was the intention can only be more confused when reading the "NPOVUW" acronym, and when clicking arriving at the top of the NPOV page, where the "UW" is nowhere explained). And overall, i think NPOVUW to be a horrendous acronym, in the WP:WOTTA meaning. --Francis Schonken 21:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

If they don't work, then delete them. I seem to remember them working in the past, but that was sometime ago. FeloniousMonk 21:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, at RfD now, see Misplaced Pages:Redirects for deletion#WP:NPOVUW → Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view --Francis Schonken 22:06, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if the software would support redirects to sections. Not for NPOVUW, but to create e.g. WP:WEIGHT. AvB ÷ talk 12:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree with AvB exactly.  NikoSilver  20:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sanity check

Would it be ok if I were to tag chinese ctities under Category:Taiwan as the goverment of Taiwan (Republic of China) claims to rule mainland china? --Cool Cat 09:19, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

1. Seems like a question you could easily answer for yourself... if not, maybe after reading Misplaced Pages:NPOV tutorial#Categorisation, and other guidance linked from there.
2. If still not being able to answer that question for yourself after reading all that, maybe ask your question at wikipedia talk:categorization, or start an RfC (but I think you may assume that the outcome of such RfC would be pretty much predictable - only encouraging you to try to find a sensible answer to your question yourself - if you'd try to find it yourself, I'm convinced the eventual answer will stick better)

--Francis Schonken 09:49, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

You are right the outcome is easy to guess. The result would be that what I am suggesting is nonsense right? I for one would oppose tagging of Beijing under a taiwanieese category. I'll copy this chain to all those pages you mentioned. --Cool Cat 08:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

This discussion belongs on Category_talk:Taiwan, not here. Bensaccount 15:01, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

No this is a discussion of NPOV policy and how it applies to categories. Its place is aproporate. --Cool Cat 08:49, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

No this is a discussion of naming one specific category, Category:Taiwan. Bensaccount 01:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Jimbo Wales comments on NPOV Undue weight

Per prior requests from the community, this discussion was moved to: User_talk:Iantresman#Moved_from_Talk:NPOV FeloniousMonk 20:03, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've had no such requests, and you have no right to remove discussion from talk pages (now restored above). You also have no right to remove the original verifiable statements from Jimbo Wales. If you remove my discussion from the Talk pages again, I will report you. If you remove verifiable quotes from the article, I will also report you. --Iantresman 20:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Read the archives. Literally dozens of Misplaced Pages's most credible editors have asked for this discussion to be either dropped or taken to user talk space over the last four months. Read Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/-Lumière. There is no support for what you've proposed. Read Misplaced Pages talk:No original research, where is issue of similar such changes by your contingent has been discussed at length and rejected. FeloniousMonk 21:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a strange discussion. What are "verifiable" quotes? This policy page is not an article on what Jimbo said in a specific context. It is about a policy, and it makes sense to paraphrase Jimbo as appropriate. The paraphrase is entirely verifiable, all we need to do is ask Jimbo if it is fair to ascribe these views to him. In fact, the page has been in this state for quite a long time. We should all feel fairly confident that if Jimbo felt his words were being misused, he would have made the change himself. I repeat: this is not an article on Jimbo and the standard for verbatim quotes does not apply. It is a policy page and what is important is wording that helps explain the policy. Verbatim quotes would be unnecessary and inappropriate. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:14, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected the page because of the reverting, because policy pages in particular need to be stable. Let me know when you're ready to start editing again. Cheers, SlimVirgin 20:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected. Revert war seems to be over, I hope. JesseW, the juggling janitor 23:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

interwiki

Would you please include the interwiki for Turkish page? Since here it is protected, I can not do so myself. Thanks. (tr:Vikipedi:Tarafsız bakış açısı) -- tembelejderha 14:48, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect text attribution

The text attributed "From Jimbo Wales, September 2003, on the mailing list:" is inaccurate as he did not appear to write these words. At the very least, we need to make it clear that the attribution is not a quote, and provide a citation to his actual words (see How to cite sources). --Iantresman 15:56, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In academic writing (or any other writing that has a tradition of citation), paraphrasing is the default and it is assumed that any attributed words that are not in quotation marks are not the original words. The special efforts that you are suggesting are only required by academic honesty when we are stating that someone said something exactly. So, the text is already "marked" to indicate that it is not a direct quote by not including quotation marks. — Saxifrage ✎ 19:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

While quote marks certainly indicate quoting, I am not aware of any style guide that assumes that the lack of quote marks infers paraphrasing. The wording certainly suggests a quote, and any competent editor would be able to rewrite this to make it unambiguous.

Additionally, the Misplaced Pages style guide on citing sources suggests that we do cite sources. But we don't. Any reason why we can't provide a primary source (something that should be familiar to those familiar with academic writing)? --Iantresman 20:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I always thought 'this is a paraphrase' and "this is a qoute". Merecat 22:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Citation policy does not apply to policy pages, once again. Apart from that issue, no style guide mentions this because it's not necessary. If you're attributing a statement to someone and don't quote, what else is it? It would only be dishonest and inaccurate if there were quotation marks. As it is, there are not. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

So despite a trivial excerise in removing the ambiguity, we don't (far more important to argue the point). And likewise we don't provide a citation because technically we don't have to (heck, why make it easy for the reader). And Wiki's policies apply to all areas of Wiki, except the policies themselves. And you wonder why there are months of discussion over ambiguous policy. --Iantresman 21:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I also note that the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style includes in the first paragraphy, a quotation from the The Chicago Manual of Style, yet it lacks quotes. Is this an exact quotation, or a paraphrase? Let me guess, Misplaced Pages style guides don't apply to policy pages either. --Iantresman 21:19, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think "we" is the right word, above. I at least, have added the citation to the mailing list post you mentioned, as well as adding the (arguably redundant, but afaics, harmless) word "paraphrased" into the section. You were saying what, again? JesseW, the juggling janitor 23:04, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not necessary to put block quotes in quotation marks. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Right. Who did? JesseW, the juggling janitor 18:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Ian suggested Misplaced Pages has been delinquent by not doing so. Poor Misplaced Pages just doesn't get any credit for working well these days... — Saxifrage ✎ 21:17, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic. Simple, unambiguous and verifiable. --Iantresman 23:24, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, if that's all you wanted, why didn't you say? I was arguing against your reasons that were based on a faulty interpretation of policy—I was about to ask you for a proposed wording to try and skirt around that mess. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I also guess that Page protection has been removed, above. --Iantresman 23:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Jesse is an admin. — Saxifrage ✎ 06:54, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Janitor, please. See my sig. ;-) JesseW, the juggling janitor 18:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

External link in Giving "equal validity" section

There appears some discussion going on regarding this sentence

See this humorous illustration of the "equal validity" issue.

in the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Giving "equal validity" section.

That is: discussion the wrong way (removing/adding the sentence in consecutive edits)

1. First, I'd suggest to keep it there unless this discussion results in doing it otherwise (it has been there for ages)
2. Second, maybe rather give your opinion here instead of revert-warring.

• My opinion: keep it. It helped me understand NPOV when I started contributing to Misplaced Pages. In other words, I clicked the link the first or second time I visited the page, and it learned me something. --Francis Schonken 22:00, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Moved to the "External links" section where it may belong. I does not belong smack in the middle of a policy page. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:04, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

It makes more sense for the link to be near the specific part of the policy it illustrates. Gamaliel 22:07, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think embedding a link about partisan US politics in our founding policy document is a Good Idea. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Keep where it is, because it makes an important point about NPOV. I think discerning readers should be able to understand the non-partisan argument made by the cartoon despite the mention of a specific US political figure. --BostonMA 01:26, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

But discerning readers are not the ones who are my concern. It's the ones who do read it as an endorsement of all sorts of partisan US issues that are the problem, and it's not an unlikely reading of the link's presence either. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:47, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

@Jossi: Equal for moving around, please find consensus first --Francis Schonken 22:09, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

• I strongly feel that this link belongs neither in the "equal validity" nor the "external links" section. This page is one of the three foundational policies of Misplaced Pages; advertising a partisan, tangentially-related web comic here is inappropriate and demonstrates well one of Misplaced Pages's systemic biases (to explain: how many republican and conservative webcomics are linked to from one of Misplaced Pages's core policy pages? :)), which is a Bad Thing. If the text does not satisfactorily provide all the examples users will need on its own, then it needs to be expanded and/or clarified, not supplemented with liberal rhetoric.
• (And I'm a liberal, a web comic addict, and an I Drew This fan (the last since mid-2004), yet even I can tell including a pro-John Kerry 2004 campaign comic isn't appropriate here. :)) -Silence 13:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, Kerry's not running for President, any more. Besides, I see the cartoon as a slap at a certain style of journalism rather than anything to do with the merits of Kerry or his campaign. -- Donald Albury 16:18, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

• • It can be applied to a broader type of journalistic idiocy, but in the context it was created in it's specifically a response to the issue of reporting on Swift Vets and POWs for Truth in an uncritical manner. Moreover, should Misplaced Pages's core policy pages really be going out of their way to criticize just about anyone, including the media? Isn't that rather contrary to the entire spirit and purpose of "NPOV"? Additionally, any users who become curious about this webcomic that Misplaced Pages suddenly and randomly linked them to on arguably the most important policy page on the entire site, will very quickly realize that it's an extremely partisan and polemic comic: the very next comic after the one we're linking to, for example, is even more explicit in its critique of George W. Bush and his recent political campaign and policies (and the one before is similarly critical of the Republican party, accusing it of hypocrisy)—and even if you feel that Kerry is no longer a key political figure, Bush certainly is, and Misplaced Pages should not betray an obvious bias for or against him. I'm not saying it's a flagrant violation of NPOV to link to a strongly liberal webcomic campaigning for a specific recent politician to illustrate a certain point, but it's certainly a violation, and it's certainly not necessary in the actual context of the policies being discussed, which are layed out much clearer in the text than they are in the comic in question (in fact, some users may be confused by the comic's insertion and not understand that WP:NPOV is saying that this is what not to do, rather than that it's saying "do this" by providing such an example). And even if we could slip this comic into the page through some loophole or other in NPOV policy, surely we don't want WP:NPOV itself to "toe the line" of NPOV?! The benefits provided by this off-site link (which are trivial at best) do not outweigh the costs to Misplaced Pages's credibility and neutrality. -Silence 17:46, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Furthermore, since Misplaced Pages is many, many, many times more popular and widely-visited than I Drew This (it barely even meets the requirements for an article, and is currently a stub), a link like this can very easily be construed as an advertisement and/or site endorsement. It's not like if Misplaced Pages provided a link to a Peanuts strip or something: not only is this link pushing the line of neutrality (as most politically-loaded comics would), but it's also clearly seeking to popularize a relatively minor webcomic just because certain Misplaced Pages editors like it. It's realllly not worth it, guys. :/ -Silence 17:52, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with everything Silence already said. I do think that though the link to the comic could be interpreted as merely demonstrating a point about balance, it also could be interpreted to mean we endorse the Democrats or any number of other things. If the fact that it could be interpreted fairly is an argument to keep it, the fact that it could be misinterpreted is an equally compelling argument to remove it, so they cancel out. It just does not reflect well on Misplaced Pages's neutrality and this failure would be doubly ironic in the very policy that demands neutrality. Besides, the subject of the cartoon is still an open wound for a lot of people in the US (and abroad even!), so it's just a Bad Idea to associate that with Misplaced Pages. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:45, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, if noone disagrees with the above, can we just remove the durned thing already? :/ -Silence 21:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, I didn't see anything in it that could me make review my earlier position. On the contrary, I got the distinct idea, that some of you don't really get the NPOV idea. I doesn't mean we can't talk about what's-his-name politician. It doesn't mean we can't talk about his opponent George Bush (don't forget we have to maintain a wikipedia article about GW Bush, and that that article also needs to be NPOV). The graphical joke should unload some tension, regarding people thinking they can't use examples in guidelines, or can't write about things irrespective whether they like them or not. You're all so tense. Whatever name is mentioned all of your emotions go soaring high. Endless discussions about whether someone might experience repulsive feelings or not. God, religion, atheism. Science, astrology. Bush, Monica Lewinski, Bill Gates. See, no problem, I can mention any name, and as far as I'm concerned any of these names can be used in the NPOV policy, if they serve an illustrative example. If you think it can't, I suppose you didn't really get yet what the NPOV policy is all about.

In sum, keep the link exactly as it is as far as I'm concerned. And try to learn something from the example, instead of trying to remove it. --Francis Schonken 21:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV policy isn't subject to NPOV, so my arguments (at least) are not based on NPOV. My arguments are premised on what I think is and isn't appropriately professional on the part of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages should not even hint at the appearance of taking sides in the heated politics of one nation. Defend its innocence we might, but it does us no favours to have to defend it when it's such a small thing. Any benefit from "unloading tension" for one person is going to be undone by angering an other. Again, if the first is an argument for including it, the second is an equal argument for removing it. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:05, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Top-of-Page Notice

On April 22, SlimVirgin changed the 2nd sentence of the top-of-page notice from this :

Feel free to edit the page as needed, but please make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus before you make them.

to this:

Please make sure that any changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus before you make them.

Since I preferred to old version, I reverted it back. I'm posting this notice here (and on WP:NOR and WP:V), because it seems like a better place to discuss it than the template page. Ragout 04:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Minor removal

I removed "the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is neutral" which I've read a couple of times and had a little giggle over. I'm assuming the average reader is not a five-year-old. Marskell 09:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't think the removal is "minor", nor that the "is a point of view" formulation is redundant. In fact, from my experience, I rather see this as one of the harder-to-grasp points of the NPOV policy. It is the simple formulation of what is explained in a more scholar-philosophical way in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#There's no such thing as objectivity. IMHO both should be kept, the "simple" formulation, that is easiest to grasp for anyone, and the longer elaboration, to satisfy the (semi-)professional user (but which I can imagine to be skipped by many). All (whatever your prior education level) are welcome to Misplaced Pages.

So, reverting, unless another consensus establishes here on this talk page. --Francis Schonken 10:14, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Rhetorical tautologies, by definition, explain nothing. If there is an important point that needs stating here, I'd suggest expanding the sentence. Marskell 11:16, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not reading it as tautological. It has a name, and it's explaining the implication of the name. — Saxifrage ✎ 11:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

To be more precise: the predicate(s) explains nothing not inherent in the subject(s). If these clauses aren't an example of that, I've never seen one. "The neutral point of view is a point of view. It (the neutral point of view) is a point of view that is neutral." Things are repeated, not explained—the first pattern makes tautologies deceiving, the second makes them meaningless.

That said, I don't want to just make a prickish syntactic point and I understand there is an idea to be emphasized. We might say something like: "neutrality is itself a point of view, not the absence or abrogation of viewpoints. By adopting the NPOV, Misplaced Pages articles do state a position but are neither sympathetic to nor in opposition to their subject." Marskell 22:38, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah! I see what you mean now. The proposed wording makes it much more explicit, yes. Though, I'd make it read "...do state a position, but it is a position that is neither..." just because I stumble when I try to parse that part of the sentence. Instead of "...the NPOV..." I would also write "...a neutral point of view..." because it scans well and elegantly restates the point without getting in the way, and being able to say it in multiple non-conflicting ways improves the chance that one of them will click with the reader. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:40, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

OK then. If Francis agrees (or at least no one else disagrees) we can change the sentence. Marskell 12:46, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, this sentence was added in the first place without consensus. It used to say the exact opposite: The NPOV is not a point of view. Bensaccount 00:13, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Ben, your solo operation (8 edits) on January 19 earlier this year wasn't exactly copy-pasting something from the talk page that had been agreed upon before, as far as I can see. The prior version had more nuance (allthough I didn't think it very well written). Reducing

The prevailing Misplaced Pages understanding is that the neutral point of view is not a point of view at all; according to our understanding, when one writes neutrally, one is very careful not to state (or imply or insinuate or subtly massage the reader into believing) that any particular view at all is correct.

(the prior version) , to

The neutral point of view is not a point of view at all.

like you did, only made a questionable statement into a totally unacceptable one. Consequently it was changed the next day (that is the diff you linked to above), and that is still (apart from a comma that was added) the version we have today.

Most of the rest of your January 19 changes were left unchanged, I don't want to create the impression I don't think you did a good job on the whole, getting rid of much of the uneccessary complication. But I don't think you should implicate that your nuance-less "The neutral point of view is not a point of view at all" statement that didn't live to the next day was in any way a consensus version.

I read the above talk between Marskell and Saxifrage a few times, but don't see exactly yet what they propose to change to what at the end of their exchange of ideas. Could anyone write the whole sentence down maybe, then it'll be easier to see what others think about it. --Francis Schonken 22:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

"As the name of this policy suggests, neutrality is itself a point of view, not the absence or abrogation of viewpoints. By adopting the neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages articles do state a position, but it is a position that is neither sympathetic to nor in opposition to its subject."

Circular sentences removed, point made explicit. Marskell 18:44, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I would change "the neutral point of view" to "a neutral point of view" (using the indefinite article and emphasising the neutrality under discussion) and remove the duplicate "to" so that it reads "neither sympathetic nor in opposition to". But aside from those very minor differences, that's about the shape of it. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:48, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't use "abrogation", legalese. Don't forget this is supposed to be the "simple" formulation, while the treatment for the more experienced reader is in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#There's no such thing as objectivity.

As a side remark, from a logical point of view, the phraseology of the first sentence of your proposal is as "circular" or "tautological" as the previous one, you just used some more difficult to understand pseudo-synonyms.

So, no this doesn't do better yet IMHO than what is there. The two minor remedies proposed by Saxifrage below, don't make this wording substantially more acceptable IMHO. --Francis Schonken 09:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not getting this objection in the slightest. Tautologies repeat their subject. This does not. Note it's "neutrality is itself a point of view" NOT "the neutral point of view is itself a point of view." That is, neutrality is defined with a perfectly fine, non-circular, declarative sentence. I honestly don't understand the problem. Marskell 16:41, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Or: what is possibly better about the sentences as they stand? They certainly don't impart as much infomation and nuance. Marskell 16:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Was that supposed to be in response to my suggestion of grammar and orthography changes? If it was I'm not understanding the connection. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

No, no. Francis commented in between our points and I responded at the end. Sorry. I think we're (you and I) at a rough agreement the change is OK. Marskell 22:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I've fixed the indenting and ordering. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight of facts?

I'm having trouble finding what aspect of this policy disallows bias from being introduced by covering a topic more than it deserves based on its importance relative to the rest of the article. For instance, if a city has had problems with water quality and it's both verifiable and relevant, what's to stop somebody from filling 2/3 of the article with cited information about how terrible the water quality was, and aggressively defending that information's importance? (It's not a fringe viewpoint; it's simply an accepted fact being vastly over-emphasized.) It clearly introduces a bias to over-emphasize a negative point like that, so it seems like something the NPOV policy should cover, but when people make the mistake of doing this, I'm not sure what part of this (or any) policy to point them to. –Tifego _{08:27, 26 April 2006 (UTC)}

Sure, the policy should guide us better than it currently does to address this important problem. Some editors oppose to the idea to improve the policy on this respect with the argument that it is impossible to code in rules the solution to the problem. The flaw in this argument is that it might be possible to improve the policy without necessarily fixing every thing in rules. The fact that a policy will always be subject to interpretation in view of specific situations, does not mean that it cannot be improved for better clarity, clearer general principles, a few key examples, etc. The reality is that there is no account anywhere that we have tried to improve the policy to address this problem in a civil manner without having editors that attempted to suppress the discussion. The fact is that people like me that are only asking for an open discussion in the policy talk pages about this matter see their opinion being suppressed, attacked under Rfc, etc. Their argument to suppress my opinion is that I have only edited a few articles before my interest switched to the policy. Similar arguments are used for other editors that are even more agressive than me, but strangely they only picked me for an Rfc. It is easier to attack one editor at a time. However, the big picture is easy to see here: Mainly those editors who have an interest on specific topics which are jammed because of strong disputes and possibly suffer from undue weight, etc. feel the need for a policy that help us better than it currently does. These editors don't need years of experience to see the problem. A few months in few articles where the problem lies is enough. At that point, these editors either quit Misplaced Pages or are banned of Misplaced Pages for misconduct if they try too much to address the problem. Note that these editors do not try to take control over the policy. They just want to be able to discuss the problem together with other editors. The editors who suppress opinions usually have no problem with the policy. They are either satisfied with the current jammed situation in the disputed articles or they might not be interested in these articles. They are editors that have cumulated years of experience and many of them are admins. -Lumière 11:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You're misrepresenting the situation, there was a lot more going on than that. - Taxman 12:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. I represented the situation fairly. However, it maybe that Tifego will succeed just by pointing out the general principle of No undue weight. We will see. The problem is that it is often insufficient. When it is sufficient, it is often because those that calls the principle of no undue weight are a majority supported by a few admins. In this case, there is not even a need for a policy. The problem is when a large proportion of the local editors, perhaps with the support of an admin, are the proponents of the criticism. In this other case, we need a more elaborated policy. -Lumière 14:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Well the RfC clearly established that you are mischaracterizing it and that your efforts grind useful discussion to a halt and prevent improvements rather than facilitating them. Your above comments did nothing to answer the question that was posed and didn't even try. You just took it as your cue to further your own agenda. That can't keep happening. I predict that you will be completely unable to refrain from responding and you will carry this further from useful discussion. If I'm right there may have to be actual restrictions placed on your editing, which would be unfortunate. - Taxman 15:50, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Tifego, you've got the right section. Providing too much detail on small points (positive or negative) is not NPOV. That's supported by the 'Undue weight' section as you've already found, and by the core of the NPOV policy that you can't emphasize small facets of a topic over more important ones—that's bias. - Taxman 12:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

And, as gadfium said at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy), removing the text into a separate article specifically about that topic and giving a link and a few words of explanation in the main article is a legitimate way of dealing with this without removing arguably well-sources and notable information. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi Tifego. I think the Undue weight section is vague because it feels safer for those who have a "firm grasp of the policy already" to keep it that way. Why else would these users be pre-opposed to any changes which try to clarify it, regardless of whether they succeed? Bensaccount 23:36, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I direct you to my comment below that contradicts your implied slight, Ben, and gently remind you that passive-aggressive personal attacks are still personal attacks. — Saxifrage ✎ 10:15, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

My problem with the 'Undue weight' section is that it talks very specifically about viewpoints, which doesn't seem to generalize to aspects. It seems like it should, but right now it focuses entirely on over-/under-emphasization of views held my a minority/majority of people, which doesn't apply to other types of bias. As for the "the core of the NPOV policy that you can't emphasize small facets of a topic over more important ones", does the policy actually express that anywhere? –Tifego _{23:57, 26 April 2006 (UTC)}

It seems there are criteria other than popularity (majority/minority) to consider. Relevance and expertise come to mind. Does this address your question? Bensaccount 00:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

No, because it didn't relate it to the policy. There are other things to consider, but where does it say that? It seems to imply that there aren't. –Tifego _{00:22, 27 April 2006 (UTC)}

It does seem like it should generalise. If that is indeed the spirit of the policy and it's just not reflected in the text explicitly, then it should be revised. To everyone else: What is the existing consensus about giving undue weight to facts/aspects of a subject? — Saxifrage ✎ 01:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that questions of proper weight to 'aspects' of an article depend on your point of view about the relative importance of the aspects. So, that puts it back to maintaining a neutral point of view. I hope that clears things up for everybody. :) -- Donald Albury 01:26, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

That's my feeling as well, but there's nothing explicit in the policy page that makes this clear. In fact, by omission and principles of discourse, it can easily be read that there is no special rules about undue weight except in the case of editorial representation of external points of view. (Which, I add, is exactly what Tifego cites as the problem, writing, "it talks very specifically about viewpoints".) Obviously undue weight should cover more ground than that, but the text itself does not. — Saxifrage ✎ 01:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Placement is also another important issue along with "aspects". To use Tifego's example, even if one only says "they have terrible water" and doesn't drove one for 2/3 of the article, but places it in the very first paragraph of the article, that can be just as bad ("Las Vegas is the most populous city in the state of Nevada, United States, and a major vacation, shopping, and gambling destination. It has terrible water."). I see three ways undue weight can be given: inclusion of ultra-minority POVs, wrong emphasis of facts, and improper placement of facts. » MonkeeSage « 10:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to add text to Undue weight section

(This section header was added to highlight the proposals for change. Taxman's comment that immediately follows was in reply to MonkeeSage's comment at 10:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC) immediately above the section header. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC))

Yes, it seems two things should be clarified in the policy. That selective presentation of facts (even if worded factually so there is no POV in the statements themselves) is just as much a problem as POV statements; the balance of coverage must reflect the importance and relevance of the material., and I agree placement can be a problem too. Any ideas on a concise addition or clarification that can put this into the policy? I think anyone that knows and uses the NPOV policy is comfortable with this already, but clarifying can't hurt. Above I wasn't saying we couldn't use clarity improvements, just that tangential conversation and editors that block improvement aren't the way to go. Specific wording of a proposed addition is much more helpful so my suggestion is exactly how I worded it in italics above. - Taxman 13:35, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

As for where, I think a short paragraph added at the end of the undue weight section would do. I don't think we need to mention anything about "selective presentation" since that's already covered, I think, by the current contents of the section. I would propose:

This is not to say that only viewpoints should not be given undue weight in an article. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways. A non-exhaustive list of such ways includes depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

— Saxifrage ✎ 22:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC) edited to insert underlined text — Saxifrage ✎ 23:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

That sounds good to me, although it doesn't seem to cover MonkeeSage's point about placement. (I don't know if it should or if it's already implicitly covered.) –Tifego _{23:01, 27 April 2006 (UTC)}

You're right, I forgot about that. I've amended my suggestion. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Does anybody object to that going into the policy? It certainly seems to be in the spirit in which the policy was intended. –Tifego _{01:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)}

Though I think this does reflect the spirit of the policy and present practice (which is the important test, I believe), I also think that we need a lot more people confirming this before such a large change of explicit text will be accepted as having consensus-support. There's no real rush, so we can let this simmer for a while and collect opinions and other suggestions for wordings or amendments to the two wordings already suggested. I have added a "Proposed change" heading above to make it a bit more prominent. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:08, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I also think that is quite good and covers more bases more clearly than mine. It could use a bit of improvement for flow, but it has the basics down very well. While I also agree there's no hurry because that's pretty much how people interpret it now, it would be good to get it in to clarify it. I believe it represents what consensus already is for the policy. I also approve of splitting my comment off to this section. :) - Taxman 03:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Support: Good job Saxifrage. I agree withyou and Taxman that this is how the policy is generally understood, even though it doesn't explicitly address these concerns (the "spirit of the law" rather than the "letter"). A good example of policy growing out of common usage and ideals. » MonkeeSage « 05:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

This looks good to me. This kind of selective presentation of facts is often a serious problem, especially with articles on contemporary politics, and I think it's worthwhile to explicitly lay out the issue in the NPOV policy. john k 05:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

What John K said. You may also want to put a note on the village pump policy section that this change is being disucssed. JoshuaZ 05:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I left a note in the section where this question was also raised, but I didn't create a new section. I honestly believe the lack of controversy over this represents a lack of a problem, but lets hold for a couple days maybe. - Taxman 14:40, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll support this. -- Donald Albury 12:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it adds clarity. --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 15:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:33, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I also support this, of course. –Tifego _{19:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)}

Don't think it a good idea (sorry),

This is not to say that only viewpoints should not be given undue weight in an article.

...confuse, double negation, what exactly does this sentence say?

Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements.

...also confuse phraseology (one has to remember to take the "not" in the second half of the sentence for it to make sense). Regarding the content, where does this do better than the "Article structures which can imply a view" section of the Words to avoid guideline, or for that matter, what we're trying to do in wikipedia:criticism currently?

An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject.

..."should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject", etc... again that convoluted phraseology. And definitely not better than the way this point is formulated in the "Space and balance" section of the NPOV tutorial:

Different views don't all deserve equal space. Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers. For an entry in an encyclopedia, ideas also need to be important. The amount of space they deserve depends on their importance and how many interesting things can be said about them.

...in comparison, surprisingly simple and effective, no?

Note that undue weight can be given in several ways. A non-exhaustive list of such ways includes depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

Vague, and in essence, when this could be formulated clearer rather something for the NPOV tutorial, than something with which to burden the NPOV policy page, as far as I'm concerned. Also, it makes something that is unavoidable when writing about opposing views ("juxtaposition of statements") look as if this would in itself be something bad. And then, weren't "Biased or selective representation of sources" and "Editing as if one given opinion is right and therefore other opinions have little substance" forgotten from the list? Surprise, they're already, elaborated with examples, in the NPOV tutorial.

So here's my suggestion, maybe look a bit further to what already exist (like the NPOV tutorial, or the criticism proposal), before trying to cram the content of the implementation guidelines all on the main NPOV policy page, that might only become totally unreadable again. --Francis Schonken 22:48, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Then perhaps all we need to is, at the bottom of the Undue Weight section, add a link to the NPOV tutorial. Still, though, I think that the laser-fine focus of the Undue Weight section on viewpoints is misleading, and it should be somehow changed to make it clear that undue weight is the problem, not undue weight of viewpoints. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:56, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

On the WP:NPOV page, NPOV tutorial is the first link encountered under the two templates. Note also that there's also another section, already for a long time on the NPOV page, Giving "equal validity", that also treats the same idea. I think the "Undue weight" section has gotten an out of proportion amount of attention since a few months, and would rather leave it at that. Maybe remove the "shortcut" box from that section (that is giving "Undue weight" to the Undue weight section). --Francis Schonken 23:06, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't really address what I was saying. Note that both the Undue weight and Giving "equal validity" talk about viewpoints. A sensible, but mistaken, reading of this would be that there are rules for how viewpoints are presented but not for other things. Since NPOV is policy and the NPOV tutorial is not, I don't see that this being covered in the NPOV tutorial does anyone any good: after all, citing the NPOV tutorial in a dispute will only be met with laughter (so to speak).

I realise this section has been under a lot of scrutiny recently. However, that's not a good reason by itself for inaction. That's essentially arguing that the time during which good work has been ground to a halt by controversy should be stretched out even longer after the controversy is no longer in the way. — Saxifrage ✎ 09:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

"... talk about viewpoints" - The policy is named wikipedia:neutral point of view. Maybe better not stretch the policy beyond talking about viewpoints.

"... there are rules for how viewpoints are presented but not for other things" - the "other things" are treated in other policies and guidelines (already!), but the neutral point of view policy is about viewpoints. I tend to see some logic in that distribution of content over the several policies and guidelines.

"... citing the NPOV tutorial in a dispute will only be met with laughter (so to speak)" - for points specifically described in guidelines, I tend to cite these guidelines when there's a NPOV (or other) issue that needs resolving. In that sense, statistically, I think I've cited the NPOV tutorial more often than the NPOV policy page (which I cite when none of the specific problem-solving pages seems to apply). Never had problems with that. If the problem gets solved, that's that. While the NPOV policy page is rather about the general (and somewhat abstract) principle, it often needs more clarification of how that principle applies to a specific problem (so needs more attention when citing). Citing practical guidelines is often less cumbersome in that sense.

Appears also that I misunderstood your original intention with the proposed insertion (which I thought to be in the first place about Article structures which can imply a view, as for example in Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid#Article structures which can imply a view). Your new comment rather indicates it is supposed to be about what is covered by the guidelines/policies in Category:Misplaced Pages proportion and emphasis (see also Misplaced Pages:Proportion and emphasis, which also refers to wikipedia:Verifiability, maybe more important than WP:NPOV when talking about balancing out other things than viewpoints).

So, anyway, I still think the wording you proposed to raise an issue on the NPOV policy page is confusing. Could you maybe reformulate a bit clearer (and then, indeed, I'd rather stick to the Article structures which can imply a view idea, than expressing something about other things that are not viewpoints). --Francis Schonken 10:37, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you are completely missing the point that people are bringing up. Too many perfectly verifiable facts about problems on a topic and no coverage of positives is POV. It's promoting a viepoint by selective presentation of facts. It's been very long held that the NPOV policy prohibits that type of thing. There are no other policies that should, and in fact it is the NPOV policy's job to cover that. But I see your point about the wording, that could be improved to eliminate the double negative. How about "Viewpoints are not the only thing that should not be given undue weight in an article." Still two "not"s, but I think it's clearer. Anyone with idea's on how to remove the double not would be good. - Taxman 16:17, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but (additionally) I don't see what the problem is with the "double negation". It's a perfectly valid and understandable sentence ("This is not to say that only viewpoints should not be given undue weight in an article"). And if two "not"'s are really that confusing, it's easy to reword it to something like:

"This is not to say that articles should only avoid undue weight of particular viewpoints."

The proposed wording is not much of a reason (IMHO) to prevent what is already de-facto community-supported interpretation of policy from being expressed in the official policy that is responsible for dealing with the issue.

–Tifego _{19:38, 29 April 2006 (UTC)}

Sorry, still no consensus on the verbosity of the phrasing. Note that I also raised some other points (e.g. context of Misplaced Pages:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance and/or category:Misplaced Pages proportion and emphasis; avoiding that the NPOV policy page centers too much on the "undue weight" section, which is only a corollary of the main principle of the page;...) which received no comments, or otherwise comments that had no relation to the points that were raised. --Francis Schonken 12:04, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? No one has agreed with you, and a substantial number of people have agreed the wording is needed and matches what people already use the policy for. I noted that your points are all completely off, someone else agreed and you never responded. Unanimity minus one is a working consensus (this project rarely gets better), and you bear the burden of refuting that. You haven't come close, so your revert of wording that has gained consensus is irresponsible. Much better is to let the edit stand and then try to prove your point. - Taxman 12:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Agendas/ Full disclosure

Hi there. I am a political Scientist, and a Social Scientist, (of the self educated sort.) And also an information systems Theorist. (Of the rank amatuer hobbyist sort.) I say this as background material, so that people will understand where I am coming from (I hope) a little more clearly.

My observation is that wikipedia has become a battleground for politicos, and that NPOV policy, while set to deal with the issue, is failing in general to keep cliques of Right wingers and left wingers from forming and resulting conflicts and social entropy ensue.

I have a set of theoretical partial solutions to this problem, at the very least some ideas I think might seriously help if they were in some way codified into policy.

The first of these is simply what I will call "Full Disclosure." It is my opinion that in order to make clearer sense of who has what biases, that participants contributing to contentious articles would all benefit from the lucidity that would follow if a "Full Disclosure" clause was added to the NPOV policy. The idea here is that the lead author of an article would begin the process on their user page, or a user subpage, by disclosing their biases, affiliations, loyalties, allegiances, and personal agenda. They could then ask "Disclosure questions" which other participants would be obliged to answer on their own user page, or user sub page, before contributing to the article.

• Comment inserted by Saxifrage: some of your premises conflict with principles fundamental to Misplaced Pages. That's not to say that some other formulation wouldn't work, but this one has the fatal flaw of conflicting with the ownership of articles policy, which states that no editor may exercise control over an article (i.e., no one editor may "own" an article).

• I think the problem is that you will get everyone claiming to be a moderate working for the good of mankind, motherhood and apple pie. As Jimbo Wales recognized, the basic and current view of Wikipedians leans progressive or leftist but most Wikipedians don't see their edits this way. The current scenario seems to be that we have recreated the American judicial system of "adversial confrontation will yield truth." But I don't know that Misplaced Pages "Justice" is encyclopedic. In fact it appears that most political or news events contain juxtaposing talking points from the extremes. I am not sure this qualifies as NPOV but it seems to be the best we can do for now.--Tbeatty 05:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 03:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Thats a minor detail, it only works that way as a for instance. I'll change it? I don't want to conflict with anything, i was just giving the very general idea of how it might work. Of course it would have to be fit into the way things currently go. For instance, never mind the "lead author" clause, just imagine it as a function of agreeing to work on articles with serious pov issues. The only reason why to use a lead author is to define the most relevant pov issues. It could be done round robin, or, the consensus process could be used to generate basic criteria. I'd change it immediately, but i don't want to misrepresent the evolution of the idea. Thanks so much for your explanation. Prometheuspan 03:35, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

For instance, a full disclosure by me regarding Rationale to impeach George Bush would look like this;

Example Full Disclosure

My Disclosure

I am a third party leaning democrat who believes sincerely that The president should be impeached. I voted for Dennis Kucinich in the election, but could not bring myself to vote for the lesser of two Evils represented by John Kerry. I consider myself a Radical Moderate, and an eclectic, and like to integrate apparently opposing viewpoints into more cohesive wholes. My agendas in writing this article is firstly to provide a neutral information service to the public, and secondly to make a strong argument that in fact, there are good rationales to impeach Bush.

Disclosure Questions

• What are your party affiliations?
• Who did you vote for in the last two elections?
• Do you believe that there are grounds to impeach?
• Aside from party affiliations, how would you characterize your bias?
• What are your personal agendas in participation?

Agendas

The point of this system would be to determine what peoples Agendas and Biases are, so that their contributions and potential conflicts could be understood in the context of where they are coming from. This would in my opinion, seriously aid in understanding in case of requests for comment, mediation, or arbitration, and make understanding contributors bias as simple as looking, rather than trying to guage that bias by reading pages and pages of contributions. It would force a new level of honesty into the system, and this would facilitate lucid problem solving regarding conflicts.

Perhaps more importantly, persons with serious agendas and biases would thus be encouraged to self identify, and could thereby in some cases be asked to recuse themselves from articles, based on the standard model of conflict of interest.

Lastly, trollish and manipulative behavior and dishonesty would be much easier to identify, because such persons would be likely to undereport their true agendas, and, agendas become apparent after a certain amount of interaction, generally.

I don't think stating one's bias or lack of bias or unusual outlook will do much good at all. God only knows I've stated my strong distate for Republicans and Democrats and Fascists and Socialists a million times and people heard what they wanted to hear. It's simple. Articles need to be neutral and factual. When editors are putting a slant on an article it's obvious. At least to me. The articles tend to read like ads or editorial comments. Maybe there could be a committee that is easy to find and readily responds to calls for help. When a lot of people are complaining about the same kinds of things or especially the same group of editors, tis probably true and worth investigation. When these same people suddenly get blocked or banned indefinitely its a clue that something's up. We need people to listen. I would volunteer to be on such a committee. thewolfstar 09:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I hope that this can be something useful to wikipedia, thanks for your time and energy in consideration. Prometheuspan 21:56, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that this would be helpful. Actually, if we, and especially administrators, came to rely on self-report rather than an investigation of actual behaviour, I think this would encourage misleading "disclosures". Also, this policy would do nothing to users who already actively disagree with Misplaced Pages's philosophy and systems and seek to subvert it for their own agendas. — Saxifrage ✎ 23:04, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that NPOV is failiing, but I don't think this is the way to solve it. I note that there are instances when consensus is used to trump (aspect of) policy, despite this guidelines on consensus noting that "Consensus should not trump NPOV (or any other official policy)".

I've always found this statement bizarre and incomprehensible. When has anyone ever explicitly claimed that consensus ought to trump NPOV? This statement is almost always brought up in the context of people trying to unilaterally claim that their preferred position is "NPOV" and that the consensus position is not. There is no way to figure out what is POV and what is NPOV except through consensus. Except in the utterly unlikely scenario of a group of editors all explicitly agreeing that an article would be better if it is POV and coming to an explicit consensus for a version which they themselves believe to be POV, this statement is absurd, because consensus and NPOV relate to different parts of wikipedia policy - NPOV is a requirement for article content; consensus is the process we use in case of conflict about article content. john k 01:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks John K, I found several things said to be totally incomprehensible. I didn't say anything about consensus, and don't see how it hopped into the conversation. It seemed like a projection to me, and an absurd one, but then again, maybe its my ignorance regarding wikipedia as a newbie. I certainly didn't say anything about conensus at all, let alone trumping NPOV. All i am doing is trying to explain how a tool would work that would enhance our ability to see and deal with pov and bias more clearly and lucidly, so that the NPOV process is an easier one. Thats not trumping NPOV, its facilitating it. Prometheuspan 02:20, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, Prometheuspan, that bit of non-sequitor was Iantresman using your post to continue a long-running argument while failing to address what you said. That is understandably confusing, and my comment below his was me chiding him for his axe-grinding, not directed at you. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:57, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) oh, thanks, that helps. Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason is clear, areas of policy are ambiguous, and there is no will (by the consensus) to clarify them. In other words, the consensus will not clarify policy in order to reduce subjectivity by the consensus. Conflict of interest? --Iantresman 23:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

The constant campaigning = not cool. All y'all have to stop hijacking posts that relate to policy discussion in order to talk about your particular beef. Just one problem is that it's disrespectful and unhelpful to the original poster to ignore their issue in favour of your own. — Saxifrage ✎ 00:32, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I am very surprised to hear that others don't think that this would be helpful. I honestly hadn't anticipated that in the least. I was sure that the usefulness of the system would be self evident. "misleading disclosures" Actually, I think you miss the point. We don't rely on this, its another tool. "Misleading disclosures" would rapidly become evident. It isn't hard to watch an agenda in progress. Think about it. For anybody with over 100 or so edits, you can probably guess their agenda if you study whats done and said. The point here is to bring a focus and thus lucidity to the issue of agendas, which isn't something wikipedia even discusses. Misleading diclosures would be a give-a-way very quickly of action not in good faith. "Do nothing" I can't see how you can say this. It would do lots regarding that subversion including making subversion more apparent and easier to diagnose. "areas of policy ambiguous" Policy or a set of rules can only get you so far. Sooner or later this comes down to figuring out what a persons agenda is, one way or another. If somebody has an agenda to be disruptive, then we have to figure that out the same as we do now. Straight out liars and con artists would be forced to come up with some good answers, but would still eventually give themselves away. "Particular beef" Are you accusing me of doing that here? Honestly, I am trying to help Misplaced Pages solve this problem.

Regarding my "beef" comment, that was very much not directed at you, but to Iantresman. The indent is intended to indicate whose comment is being replied to.

My concern about enforced disclosure (from a systems point of view) is that I think it would either give a false sense of security, or be ignored completely. Right now, biases and agendas are generally easy to detect and users that are subversive generally end up on the wrong end of a Request for Comment or Arbitration case. I don't think such a system of disclosure would speed that process at all. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I do think it could be very helpful, it doesn't look to me as i wander around that most people are clear what kinds of biases others have hardly at all. Nobody even says the word "Agenda." Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I hope that both of you will think about this and review the idea carefully in your mind. I am certain it has enormous merit. "Conflict of interest". For instance, I would have to recuse myself from writing the George W. Bush Article, because i would be too biased against him to provide useful assitance in that endeavor. It would be a conflict of interest for me to do that. For instance. conflict of interest

Prometheuspan 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Saxifrage, you actually seem to have a full disclosure area of your user page, as if you allready get it. ???? Why did you tell us about your biases? Because its helpful to the effort for everybody to put their biases on the table. You make the argument for it yourself on your user page. ??? If everybody was as honest and forthcoming as you are on your user page, this would be redundant. Think about it. Prometheuspan 01:07, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I do think it would be better if everyone did, but I don't think it would be better if everyone had to. Mine is also not full disclosure, since I only have there my biases that I think are relevant. (Notice it lacks any party affiliations or what I stud(ied/y) in my "post-secondary education".) I hope that my disclosure of biases on my User page is useful to other editors, but I would not ask anyone to rely on it farther than they can throw it. It's also there for my own benefit, as a reminder of what my biases are.

I think that if disclosure was mandatory, people would evade it. It's not something that can really be enforced, and rules that are unenforceable usually cause more problems than they solve.

Beyond this, such a mandatory policy, imagining for a moment that it were enforceable, would have all kinds of privacy implications. Just for starters, I don't have to disclose who I voted for in any election, anywhere, ever—what gives Misplaced Pages the right to demand I do so? — Saxifrage ✎ 02:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC) I think that is a good point, but if you were working on an aricle related to George Bush or the rigged elections problem, I think it would become very relevant very quickly. If people didn't want to disclose they don't have to work on the article, or, even, if they didn't want to disclose they could even still work on the article, but have to more or less defer to those that did disclose in disputes. I think you are doing a great job of finding potential holes, but every hole you have found so far seems either illusory in the first place or an easy patch to me personally. "Mandatory" might be much too strong a word and way to think about the whole idea.

As far as "full" goes, people would only be disclosing things relevant to working on highly contested articles. Think of it as a tool used perhaps only after a pov dispute has reached critical mass. Prometheuspan 03:47, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I, like I assume Saxifrage does, sincerely appreciate your efforts to point out something you think would be helpful. But I also agree with him that I don't think this would be helpful, both because enforced disclosure wouldn't work (difficult people might just lie), and because people's biases are pretty easy to spot in their edits. The way this crazy place works is that to people who are familiar with it, edits stand pretty well on their own. You can tell by the edit whether it is an improvement or not and you get a feel for what editors are being helpful and which are not. For example, based on Saxifrage's editing, I know he'll be right in his edits much more than wrong, and that though we would certainly disagree on things, we would be able to present facts and come to a mutually agreeable solution and both learn something. For other editors not willing or able to do that it is much tougher to collaborate succesfully, but I still know if their edits are good or not. Point being the edits stand on their own and I don't need to know what Saxifrage's beliefs are. - Taxman 04:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem disclosing my biases and agendas (check my user page if you doubt it), but this suggestion is a bit worrisome to me. The No Persoanl Attacks policy says that the following qualifies as an example of a personal attack: "Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views — regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream or extreme." I fear that such a forced-disclosure could (likely would) lead to witch-hunts and edit wars based on affiliations and personal convictions; implicit ownership of articles (e.g., Christians claiming that "hard" Atheists can't edit articles about Christianity because they are too biased, and vise versa); and hasty generalizations. » MonkeeSage « 05:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I also strongly dislike this. If someone has a strong bias that gets in the way of their editing in a NPOV way it will be apparent in their edits, A general rule of forced disclosure is unproductive, will scare away new users, make personal attacks more likely and simply won't accomplish much. JoshuaZ 05:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I disclose some things about myself on my user pages (and disclosed more in the past, still accessible in the history), but I much prefer to be judged by my edits than by anything I say about myself. Since we have no way of verifying what editors say about themselves (without engaging in what, in some circumstance, I would consider to be 'stalking'), I much prefer to judge people by their behavior in Misplaced Pages. In the same vein, if I have learned something about an editor that is not available publicly, I do not reveal it. So, I also do not like any proposal to force editors to disclose biases, viewpoints, etc. -- Donald Albury 12:41, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Disclosure

I've said before I favour the notion of knowing where an editor comes from. I have listed my biases, as I understand them, about major topics on my user page. I'd not favour requiring it from every editor! It's an optional thing (I think it makes our interactions better if you know where I am coming from and vice versa but if you don't agree, no biggie) and certainly don't see the need for it anywhere else though. My concern with the above is that it seems to be more than just that although I confess I haven't parsed out what exactly. ++Lar: t/c 14:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC) Thanks for your assorted comments. Seeing as i have no support and only people who think its a bad idea responding, i suppose I'll just drop it. I think you are all miscontruing how it would work, and underestimating how helpful it would be. The idea here wasn't for me to generate an actual policy, but to start a policy concept. I think it would be more fair and realistic if people would stop and think about how in theory it might be implemented, before just dismissing it out of hand. In any case, I am slowly coming to the realization that Misplaced Pages is a mostly headless beneficient dictatorship combined with a loose level of consensus process resulting actually in pack psychology driven anarchy, and, I will probably quit participating, because i don't see that theres any sane way to deal with abusiveness, and the policies in place that do deal with the issues require exorbitant amounts of time and energy, which means that only the very worst problems are ever resolved, and editors who are clearly gaming the system and manipulating and lying can continue to do so as long as they are clever enough not to become a really big pain to some administrator. Prometheuspan 19:52, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are those issues. I think problematic cases come with every society though, and that kind of difficulty is one I'm personally willing to accept. Besides, in practise there are very few who manage to walk the fine line between disruption and useful editing so much that they don't eventually get called up for bad behaviour. In practise, it's not so much the worst cases, but the most persistent ones (which covers most of the worst ones) that get dealt with. That's fine by me, since the ones that aren't persistently disruptive stop and become good editors. — Saxifrage ✎ 22:05, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately biases are indicated by what people write in an article, not by their background. It doesn't matter whether I'm a gay, liberal, black, communist, or whatever, it's what I write that counts.

But I do agree with you that Misplaced Pages does come across as headless, and I think that pages and pages of repetition arguments on these pages, demonstrates that, regardless of what some contributors may suggest, it is indeed driven by anarchic consensus, rather than policy. --Iantresman 01:08, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

WP is more like a principled republic. Policy is binding, but at the same time it is in a state of flux, trying to keep up with the community as it grows and changes. Somewhat idealistic. But still specific enough to apply to concrete cases, per mutatis mutandis. » MonkeeSage « 03:43, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Use of persecution to describe acts of Chinese government?

(Previously titled Is it OK to say Hitler's a monster because he really is?)

Actually the situation is more complex. People who believe the communists are evil (etc) think they are justified in using POV words to describe communists, because they believe their words REALLY, REALLY fit the communists, so they don't think it's POV to use those words. Eg:

I very much agree. "Persecution" is a very negative term, however, we shouldn't avoid it simply for that reason. What the Chinese government has done fully meets the term's definition, which has been acknowledged by many third party sources, as -someone- mentioned. I opt for "persecution" rather than "crackdown" or "suppression" becuase it more clearly describes the reality of what is being discussed. -names removed-

-- Миборовский 18:33, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

No, because the use of monster in that way is metaphorical—he's not a slavering non-human beast out of mythology and nightmare, which is what he'd have to be to "really" be a monster. In this way it is different from the persecution analogy. It's POV, and should not be done. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:53, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The fact that most of us will characterize Hitler as a monster or worse, does not mean that it is encyclopedic to say so. Hitler's despicable acts speak for themselves. It does not need any metaphorical constructs. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:15, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

That's not what he's asking. The real question is: "Is it OK to call the Chinese government's action(s) 'persecution' because it really is?" As one example, that is. Hitler and monsters aren't involved at all except as an analogy referring to the example in this policy. –Tifego _{23:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)}

I know that he is not asking that. But the example stands. There is no need to pass value judgements on material in articles unless is attributed to a reputable source. Value judgements about right, wrong, moral, immoral, etc, are outside of the domain of editors. Attribute POVs clearly as per WP:NPOV and cite your sources. Period. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

There is a power in neutral language which the use of any 'emotive' or 'subjective' terms destroys. Using neutral language allows the reader to apply their own moral judgement without feeling that they are being propagandised to or preached at. An example is Martin Gilbert's book The Holocaust. It details page after page of facts, and leaves judgement to the reader. It is the most shocking book I've ever read, and that's because it tries to lay out the facts only, without judgement. Is it possible to describe the verifiable actions rather than try to decide between 'persecute' or 'suppress'? --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 23:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

From the above it's not clear to me whether the interlocutors were or were not aware that Hitler is actually used as an example in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves. In other words: didn't the content of that section already settle the issue brought forward? Or, is someone implying, by bringing this topic up on this page, that something is wrong with that section? --Francis Schonken 00:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

He's implying, by bringing it up on this page, that other people are incorrectly ignoring that section of the policy. –Tifego _{00:16, 30 April 2006 (UTC)}

No, I wasn't "implying" that, I was asking two questions:

1. Was there awareness that Hitler was treated as a topic in Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Let the facts speak for themselves?
2. Does that section cover the question at hand, or is someone suggesting improvement of that section of the NPOV policy page?

I'm indifferent about what answers you give to these questions. But my feeling is that this discussion is somewhat hollow (or: not really relating to the current WP:NPOV policy) if these questions aren't answered. The only thing I was implying is this: if this is not a discussion that relates to the actual NPOV policy page, it should not be on the talk page of that policy page, per WP:NOT discussion forum. --Francis Schonken 09:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

(Serves me right for reading the header and skimming the actual question.) So, in answer to the actual question, I would still say no.

Here's my (rather rambling) thoughts on the issue. To use the word persecute requires knowledge of motive or contains an inherent judgement that the action is undeserved (depending on what definition you look at). Merriam-Webster's definition says, "to harass in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict" (emphasis mine); my Mac OS X dictionary says, "subject (someone) to hostility and ill-treatment" (emphasis mine); dictionary.com's definition says, "To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs" (emphasis mine). However, I am not really familiar with the subject enough to think my "no" is definitive: if it is absolutely clear and verifiable what the government's purpose for their acts are and that purpose is to subject people to maltreatment because of their religion (etc.), then it might be warranted. However, then you have to be absolutely sure you haven't crossed Misplaced Pages:No original research in order to get to that judgement. Even then, Misplaced Pages saying that it is persecution may be unwarranted, since it would then be presenting one POV as true. (O, what a tangled web...) — Saxifrage ✎ 00:59, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it is NOT OK to say Hitler was a monster as this is clearly POV. On the ultimate scale of events, Hitler's actions were actually following some sort of a world-wide order. If Hitler, did not exist, many countries would still be under foreign rule and the world community would still view war with a high level of tolerance. One must remember that Hitler (and no man) is evil in ABSOLUTE terms. --Siva1979 03:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

But presumably it would be OK to say that many authors have described Hitler as a monster, if citations can be provided ; but equally it would then mean that we should say the some authors have described Hitler as not being a monster, again, if citations can be provided . And this highlights that Misplaced Pages's policy of verifiability states that: "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth." --Iantresman 16:09, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

People have called him a hateful monster. People have said he was right and that they admire him. As to who says (said) which, how about an "opinions on" section, all neatly (<ref></ref>) footnoted? Metarhyme 19:45, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure, but the point is moot: the original poster was actually asking a question unrelated to Hitler. I made the same mistake. — Saxifrage ✎ 20:11, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and controversial subjects

Does NPOV apply to non-controversial subjects, controversial subjects, or both? --Iantresman 18:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV applies to all encyclopedia articles, and is "non-negotiable". (But surely you know that, it's clearly stated; so why do you ask?) Harald88 18:33, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I've seen several Wiki policy statement that I thought were clearly stated, but which may be re-interpreted by other statements. So I'm double checking, to make sure I haven't missed anything. --Iantresman 19:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Second opinions? --Iantresman 09:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"On every issue about which there might be even minor dispute among experts on this subject, is it very difficult or impossible for the reader to determine what the view is to which the author adheres?" Sanger said that. If you write your fringe cosmological views into an article on not-generally-accepted-cosmologies using Sanger's statement as a guide, there's a chance they may stick. If instead you crusade as a devotee of Truth, you are sure to be viewed as pushing a point of view, and the concepts you wish to communicate will tend not to stick. Try being neutral as a tactic - it might work. Metarhyme 16:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be the core meaning of the Misplaced Pages|verifiability policy, that "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth.", and consequently, theories/ideas should not be present as absolute truths. But if a theory is not controversial, then does NPOV still apply? --Iantresman 16:37, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. The bigbangers are bound by NPOV also. You may wish to hold them to it. Metarhyme 23:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

POV pushing

According to the page on POV pushing, only excluding all points of view but one, counts as "POV pushing". Does that infer that including a particular point of view (POV), in a neutral point of view style (NPOV), can not count as "POV pushing" under any circumstances? In other words, mentioning a POV is not POV pushing, otherwise any POV already mentioned in an article can be considerd POV pushing. --Iantresman 09:09, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 23:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC) The apparent final application of NPOV becomes MPOV as in "multiple Points of view." This applies where there ARE multiple points of view, and where any given point of view is both noteworthy and sane enough to withstand the obvious scrutiny of basic reality checks. I could write a theory on cosmology based on the divine intervention of the flying spagetti monster. Fortunately for all of us, this would only fly in a humor article, not a cosmology article, because its not a serious REAL Cosmology.

As a newbie, this is only my current interpretation. I keep finding new details that makes me scratch my head for 20 minutes. Prometheuspan 23:48, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Objectivity nearly impossible RE: NPOV

'Objectivity' in my experience is impossible, individuals (myself included) will always write or comment on a subject based on how they have experienced it. Most of what I hear is usually subjective at some level. For every one 'fact' I choose to report, I'm sure I leave out many other 'facts'.

Sorry! NPOV is not realistic IMHO

What may be more realistic is for people to simply take ownership or owe up to what is their opinion or simply state how they 'feel' about the subject (no one can call them a liar or 'have gotten it wrong'). This is a really tough one for historians.

I find it difficult in society which so often encourages people not to state how they feel. (notice I said 'feel' and not 'think').

Have a good one! WIKIPEDIAVI 20:10, 2 May 2006 (UTC) 02May2006

If we don't at least attempt to write from an NPOV this encyclopedia will simply degenerate into people arguing with each other over which view to represent; or every article will become an agglomorated mish-mash of part-articles written from different points of view. Not being able to achieve a perfectly neutral point of view is no reason not to strive for as much neutraility as possible. DJ Clayworth 20:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Since your experiences are not objective, then your view on a subject is not acceptable. That's why articles are written from a neutral point of view based on verifiable sources. --Iantresman 20:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 23:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC) It is true. Neutrality is just a goal. A worthy goal, which, cannot actually be achieved. However, we can get very close to that goal, and the harder we work to achieve it the more closely we aproximate an information resource instead of a propaganda channel.

I think most subjects can be written in a NPOV style, it's only when we try to include subjective information that NPOV breaks down --Iantresman 17:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

The policy has already addressed this issue (WP:NPOV#There's no such thing as objectivity):

Everybody with any philosophical sophistication knows that. So how can we take the "neutrality" policy seriously? Neutrality, lack of bias, isn't possible.

This is probably the most common objection to the neutrality policy. It also reflects the most common misunderstanding of the policy. The misunderstanding is that the policy would have said something about the possibility of objectivity. It simply does not. In particular, the policy does not say that there even is such a thing as objectivity in a philosophical sense, a "view from nowhere" (in Thomas Nagel's phrase)—such that articles written from that point of view are consequently objectively true. That isn't the policy and it is not our aim! Rather, we employ a different understanding of "neutral" and "unbiased" than many might be used to. The policy is simply that we should characterize disputes rather than engage in them.

You don't have to believe in the possibility of neutrality, nor work toward it; you don't have to believe that biases prevent fair reporting; in the worst case, the policy allows for necessarily biased reporting to be balanced by necessarily counter-biased reporting, with the end result that all views are fairly represented by those who are biased toward them. » MonkeeSage « 23:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

When coming into wikipedia, I was soon faced with NPOV since my main interest are horses - a typical flaming topic. Particularly, since my aim was to let people know something about relatively new opinions and evidence about this flaming topic: barefoot horses, bitless riding, treeless saddles, passive leadership... Almost nothing about this was into wiki. I'm mainly working into it.wiki and commons, but sometimes I come into en.wiki (I'm a little discouraged by my far-from-good English). I thoght a lot about NPOV, and some from my first works had been marked with NPOV template. Then, this was my beginner's approach: 1. I looked for a wiki admin with "traditional" horse experience and I asked him to take a look to my work (thanks Ubi!), then I followed her suggestions; 2. I re-discovered by myself the principle "Work for the enemy": I translated many "traditional" horse articles from English into Italian, adding a mention to new opinions and evidences; 3. I posted into commons many horse pictures about traditional farriery too! and I add good links to some good farriery sources to articles that were lacking them. And I tried to discuss NPOV too, when I saw that sometimes there is some mismatch between "CPOV" (Common Point of View) and NPOV. I'd like so much a "EBPOV" (Evidence Based Point of View")! Am I perfectly neutral about horses? Not at all! Simply, I'm doing by best to be. Take a look to Laminitis, its talk page and its history just ho have a example.--Alex brollo 07:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

• There is really a simple answer to the overriding question here... NPOV, much like the truths of science, is an unreachable ideal. However, as in science, one can get asymptotically closer to the objective by striving for it, although never reaching it. Although true NPOV is somewhat unreachable, striving towards it is really quite easy. It is also quite easy to tell when something is not in the spirit of neutrality.--Oni Ookami Alfador 07:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

From Stratagem XXX by Schopenhauer and NPOV

"But to speak seriously, the universality of an opinion is no proof, nay, it is not even a probability, that the opinion is right." (The Art of Controversy, A. Schopenhauer). This underlines how much "common point of view" is different by "neutral point of view". The ia a hard discussion about truth into medicine (a science dealing with a complex system), and recently emerged the need for a evidence-based medicine.

In brief: when debating about NPOV, it's very important, in my opinion, to look for some evidence supporting a point of view, particularly if it is largely accepted (t.i. "not needing any proof" at a first glance). It's highly probable that such an undocumented point of view is - far from being NPOV - a received idea. Alex brollo 06:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is addressed by NPOV's companion policy of Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. — Saxifrage ✎ 09:52, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Sidebar?

Is this recently added sidebar {{Associations/Wikipedia Bad Things}} appropriate in a policy page? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

See WP:VPP#Zondor's "Bad Things" campaign, I started a discussion there. --Francis Schonken 15:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Well (slighty off-topic) it looked really bad with just a border; I added a default background color ("#fff"), and an id attribute ("badThings") to the div, so it can be customized in monobook.css. I'm not really sure if it is appropriate here or not. » MonkeeSage « 23:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Does NPOV Require An Amoral, Post-Modern, Oxymoronic Worldview?

I don't understand how NPOV can really work. It seems it is self-denying. If I understand the idea correctly, NPOV is to be entirely neutral and without judgment. But to be without any hint of judgement doesn't the writer have to move to an amoral position, or at least not observe and describe without using any pejorative or ameliorative comments?

I can understand trying to remain objective but to claim to be without bias seems to be delusional, and stretching for God-like characteristics, as if it were possible to maintain a completely object viewpoint. For example, if I read the page on abortion I can clearly see how all the descriptions are couched around the pro-abortion/pro-choice position while attempting to "sound" objective. It sounds good if you're pro-choice/pro-abortion, but if you are anti-choice/pro-life it feels like the whole NPOV system is hypocritical because it claims objectivity yet the authors can't see even how their position is already so very skewed.

Might it not be a better way to admit that we have biases and allow for "positions" to be held? For example I recently read of a new shared Israeli & Palestinian history book project where history is present from each point of view. The same events are described with one side of the page being explained from an Israeli perspective and the other side of the book being Palestinian. This seems more intellectually honest.

I can understand striving for neutrality but pretending to be without bias seems to color the whole project to me with a sense of dishonesty. Dcsutherland 02:16, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You should try wikinfo. · Katefan0 /poll 02:17, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

And in the meantime, may want to see the above discussion with the heading "Objectivity nearly impossible RE: NPOV" JoshuaZ 02:23, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem with being NPOV is that is might show people likes racist or the nazis or the KKK or other hate groups in a good light, instead in the bad light they are supposed to be shown in. That's why I don't like NPOV sometimes on some articles. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 04:30, 13 May 2006 (UTC).

74.133.188.197, you misunderstand the policy. The majority pov is that KKK and hate groups are bad for society. The article should strongly reflect this pov. The tiny minority pov that KKK is good should be expressed but not misrespresented as the majority view. This is true even in the KKK article. See section from NPOV policy below.

Please be clear on one thing: the Misplaced Pages neutrality policy certainly does not state, or imply, that we must "give equal validity" to minority views. It does state that we must not take a stand on them as encyclopedia writers; but that does not stop us from describing the majority views as such; from fairly explaining the strong arguments against the pseudoscientific theory; from describing the strong moral repugnance that many people feel toward some morally repugnant views; and so forth. FloNight 00:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggested change

May we change:

"As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view. It is a point of view that is striving for neutrality - a point of view that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."

to

"As the name suggests, neutrality in the context of the encyclopedia is itself a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. By adopting the neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages articles do state a position, one that is neither sympathetic to nor in opposition to its subject."

or some other wording that avoids that avoids the non-statement circularity. Two say yes, Frances says no. Any other comments would be appreciated. Marskell 08:28, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't care if 100 say yes, and 1 says no. Check his statements carefully, and see if you can convince him to change his mind. He seems reasonable, so try some more reason :-) Kim Bruning 09:42, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I pointed out two to one to observe that we need more comments, not as a final tally. I have re-introduced the clause "not the absence or elimination of viewpoints" while leaving the rest. It makes the sentence less "no duh" and is compromise enough for me. Marskell 11:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

:-) Kim Bruning 11:05, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

To take it one little step by little step. May I change:

"As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view."

to

"As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints."

A simple expansion of a circular point via one little clause. On the basis of "if it does not disimprove, do not remove" it strikes me as hard to justify reverting this. And this editing via revert is disheartening, which a glance through some history reinforces. Perhaps the page should simply be protected. Marskell 17:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Going twice... Any comment on why this is bad? Marskell 22:10, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's try it and see! (scardycat) :-) :-) Kim Bruning 22:45, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, that line now needs refactoring though, it's twisting my mind! :-P Anyone care to try? Kim Bruning 22:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

My commentary re this sentence: "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence of elimination of viewpoints." is that it doesn't really parse. In particular, "absence of elimination", unless we're talking constipation (:-)), doesn't really mean anything. If I understand the intention (which is far from certain), the line would be: "... NPOV is a point of view, not the absence of a viewpoint or the elimination of all viewpoints". -- Gnetwerker 01:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Akk! It should have read "absence or elimination..." Yes, your def is what's meant. Marskell 08:55, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

What constitutes sufficient consensus for policy changes?

On March 16th 2006, I requested a change to the last paragraph of the "Reasoning Behind NPOV" section, which received 8:3 support (not counting myself), and after a long discussion and a compromise with one of the editors who was against the change, got to 9:2. I made the change, which was reverted by one of the other two editors who was against the change. This was not a change to the actual policy, only a change in the description of the policy, or more precisely, the description of the reason for the policy.

Is 9:2 a sufficient consensus for such a change? If not, the issue is still open, as I still support my request, and I ask an admin. to please instruct me how to resolve the matter. I am willing to abide my the consensus decision with no further adiue (even if it is against me), which is why I have let the matter rest for a month (since April 2nd); but currently it appears that the consensus is for the change, not against it. I'm not trying to be stubborn or cause any problems, I just want to get the issue resolved. » MonkeeSage « 10:01, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Well "Mu". To answer your question, rather than what you really wanted to know: the requirement could be seen as being 11:0.

To actually answer what you probably wanted to know ;-) : Just do the change, and see who reverts you. Then you can discuss with that person until you agree on a compromise. If you like you can wash, rinse, repeat that several times, until you reach a compromise that everyone can agree on.

Kim Bruning 10:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. Well, I did try that, as did the other editor with whom I reached a compromise. The third editor, who reverted the change, remained fairly adamant in his opposition to both the originally proposed change and the compromise version. That is why I'm unsure what to do at this point. Should I propose some kind of formal vote? Should I go with the previously established simple majority (81.8%) over the hold-outs (18.2%)? Or. . .? » MonkeeSage « 10:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

If you try for mere majority, I shall kill you with fire!. I mean, why, I might disagree with that somewhat.

Oh hmm, why is that editor so adamant. Do you know? They have to realise they're outnumbered, I'm sure. If they're at all reasonable they might be able to come up with a compromise themselves. :-) Kim Bruning 11:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

While you're neutrality regarding neutrality is appreciated Kim ;), we can't confuse consensus and unanimity. If someone is dead opposed to something and a much larger group is not, you often have to simply make the change and let the chips fall. The sentence beginning "Totalitarian governments" is awful, BTW. Marskell 11:13, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to treasure that comment! Neutrality regarding neutrality, gosh! <blush> .

• Unanimity= We all live in a pretty world with flowers and unicorns, and everyone always agrees perfectly with each other. It all ends with a big group hug.

• Consensus= We all live in that post-modern mess we call the real world, and have no time for yet even more shenanigans. After hour after gruelling hour of discussion, no-one disagrees enough with the final proposal to be bothered to put forth the strength to oppose any further... so the change goes through. People finally stagger off to bed, and come in late for work in the morning.

If people drag their weight on a consensus-seeking-discussion, things slow down. That's up to the weight-draggers, but I'd just remind them that we do need *some* solution, and maybe they'd be willing to compromise just a little so we can all finally get some sleep? <innocent smile of death>

Kim Bruning 14:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll instruct UBACAB, my user-boxen-and-category-aware canvassbot, to round up a massive supertroupermajority once I've decided which text I want. This is the right time; Kim is asleep and Marskell is studying the archives of this talk page to learn more about previous attempts to remove "Totalitarian governments" (if only from this policy). AvB ÷ talk 16:18, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Beware of sleeping kims, they might just wake up. :-) Kim Bruning 20:04, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit of two minds here. I like your proposed change (and argued for it). I also think that 80% is a sufficient margin for such changes. On the other hand, I do not think that 11 votes in total should be a quorum for policy changes that affect all of Misplaced Pages with its millions (?) of editors. If something like that only gets 11 votes, it implies that either something is broken in the community process, or that this is so irrelevant that the whole paragraph (either version) should be striken as irrelevant.--Stephan Schulz 09:31, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Stephan, that conclusion is erroneous: if millions of people don't care if A is replaced by B or not, it doesn't mean that they would agree to instead delete A. ;-) Apart of that, likely most Wikipedians aren't involved in Misplaced Pages politics. Harald88 10:03, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I don't care if they support it. I'm happy to make the change if they don't oppose it. Brevity (especially of policy) is a value by itself. As to your second point: That's exacly why we should have as little policy as possible. By what justification do we make policies for the mass of Wikipedians, many of which don't even know that these exist? So I would strongly argue to keep it down to the necessary....--Stephan Schulz 10:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

OK as long as you don't make a significant change without consensus. But IMHO we kind of reached consensus to make an improvement as discussed. Harald88 16:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Keep it down indeed. A second look at the sentence and it strikes me as more ridiculous. Is it Wiki policy to give Totalitarian gov'ts "reason to be opposed to Misplaced Pages"? I say remove it if you're so inclined Stephan. The debate in the archive has consensus (again, not unaminity, which is hard to hope for). Marskell 11:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Apparently you didn't really read the discussion on this subject (your look was erroneous). Harald88 16:42, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

For goodness sake, just make the freaking change already. :-P And don't mention the '%' symbol in my presence again! >:-> (grrrr) Kim Bruning 14:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC) <performs quick change to innocent look, who me, growling?>

Mission statement?

The paragraph currently under discussion:

There is another reason to commit ourselves to this policy. Namely, when it is clear to readers that we do not expect them to adopt any particular opinion, this leaves them free to make up their minds for themselves, thus encouraging intellectual independence. Totalitarian governments and dogmatic institutions everywhere might find reason to be opposed to Misplaced Pages, if we succeed in adhering to our non-bias policy: the presentation of many competing theories on a wide variety of subjects suggests that we, the editors of Misplaced Pages, trust readers' competence to form their own opinions. Texts that present multiple viewpoints fairly, without demanding that the reader accept any one of them, are liberating. Neutrality subverts dogmatism, and nearly everyone working on Misplaced Pages can agree this is a good thing.

is maybe the clearest instance of a Misplaced Pages mission statement included in a policy page.

That is, the unavoidable "mission statement" by Jimbo (user:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles) is not a policy page.

So maybe this is a question to be answered first: can/should Misplaced Pages policy pages include mission statement-like expressions?

My (personal) answer to this question would be: I tend to see the discussed "reasoning behind NPOV" paragraph as an explicitation and adoption into the community of Jimbo's first principle ("Misplaced Pages's success to date is 100% a function of our open community"). The paragraph currently under discussion makes explicit that this might conflict with the interests of less open communities, and that we shouldn't dodge awareness of such issue. So I oppose to a formulation that makes that point less transparant. Note that I don't think this should prevent a clearer formulation of the implied principle (see next subsection).

Note also that according to Jimbo's principle #6 a further discussion of this issue can and should probably best be taken to the mailing list. Would that be a good idea? --Francis Schonken 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Namely

Couldn't we get rid of the "namely" beginning the second sentence of the discussed "reasoning behind NPOV" paragraph? I've been told that the word namely makes reading of an English text less fluent. So I'd try to get rid of that word in order to get a clearer formulation. --Francis Schonken 11:33, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV should be....

NPOV correctly implemented would read dispassionately, in a dry analytic fashion such as:

"The Chicago Police today reported that three suspects were apprehended driving a vehicle which had been reported stolen by the grand-niece of Richard Daley."

, instead of

"Three hoodlums were caught red-handed violating the family tranquility of the beloved Daley family. When apprehended, they were committing a felony by being in possession of stolen car and are likely guilty of many other things as well".

It's really that simple. Hdtopo 05:18, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Not so: it's not obliged to always use dry language - "neutral" doesn't have to be boring. ;-) Harald88 09:09, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps not dry, but I certainly would agree that it should be dispassionate. I think that passionate and POV are very nearly synonymous in this context. :-) — Saxifrage ✎ 22:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't you think that Jimbo is passionate about NPOV? Characterizing passionate points of view in a "fair and balanced" manner would be doing a disservice to the topic if the passions involved were not communicated. Rfrisbie 22:27, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps all these talks of NPOV still have to go a long way to understand the real spirit of NPOV. I am not sure though. --Bhadani 15:04, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages should not have any passion about a subject, though. That's what the Real World that Misplaced Pages documents is for. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Precisely; we are, after all, not a blog or newspaper but an encyclopedia. We should be disinterested, even as our articles needn't to be uninteresting. Joe 04:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to restrict who can edit policies

Following banned user Zephram Stark's attempt to rewrite WP:SOCK using two sockpuppet accounts, there is a proposal to limit the editing of policy pages either to admins, or to editors with six months editing experience and 1,000 edits to articles. Please vote and comment at Misplaced Pages:Editing policy pages. SlimVirgin 19:12, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Sources and POV

A source's POV is not something that should necessarily be removed. Quite the opposite, it often is the purpose of Misplaced Pages to report what the source's POV is. For example, Bytwerk has recommended including a source, Michael Burleigh, who has the opinion (the POV) that "Hitler dissembled his personal views behind preachy invocations of the Almighty". So, in Burleigh's opinion, Hitler was sort of a liar. That's his POV, and it is our job to report it. It's not a fact that Hitler lied about personal views, but it is a fact that Burleigh said that Hitler lied. So, yes we are interested in only giving the facts, but do you see how we report a source's POV here in a factual way? Reporting what a source said, is stating a fact, the source really did say it, regardless of whether what he said was true or false, fact or opinion.

This was what I read from another Wikipedian, but I am unsure about that being correct. The information here does not clearly state about a sources' POV. I do not agree with the above statements. POV'ing ought to be completely left out: just leave the facts, but upon coming here, I didn't see anything about it. Colonel Marksman 13:21, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

It is a fact that Burleigh has a POV about Hitler. Problem solved. By mentioning a POV, we don't necessarily endorse it. Johnleemk | Talk 13:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• Consider this then. It could be that we mention a POV by another person (regardless of who they are, historial, political figure, etc.) that can still disregard: "treating others as people" as is in the POV article. Take this look into other sides (e.g. political racists figures, etc). I agree that historians, books, articles, the Pope, etc. do not have any more say so in their opinion as any editor in Misplaced Pages. Colonel Marksman 13:54, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Could you rephrase that please? I've read it three times and can't make head or tail of it. Johnleemk | Talk 16:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• Why do historians/books/other sources get opinions, but not editors? The policy in POV states:

"A good rule of thumb in avoiding POV is to never refer to someone in a way you would not want to see used to refer to yourself or a loved one. When writing something such as "the park has had a lot of problems with the homeless," consider that these "homeless" are people and would not want to be described this way. An improvement might be something such as "after the park was renovated, park officials began taking steps to show that individuals who were homeless were not welcome there."

So, it's ok to insert the opinions of sources (historians/books/articles), but Wikipedians (editors) can't? "Just as long as you state the source?"

• I'm saying that none of these policies say anything about the opinions, POV, or bias of the sources, but extensively about the editors. Colonel Marksman 18:31, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't get it. The idea is that we, Misplaced Pages, have to be completely neutral in how we refer to our subjects. However, our sources do not have to be neutral. If they were, it would be difficult to write an article on anything polemical. The important thing is that we ourselves must be neutral; therefore, for instance, it is not neutral to cite sources for only one side of the issue and ignore the other side(s). Johnleemk | Talk 12:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

• Yes I got it, I'm questioning it. There's a Wikiwar going on about the Adolf Hitler page and his religion about it. (Some historians speculate he was Christian when he left home, and others don't, etc.)
• It's ok to state a source calling Blacks whores, but Wikipedians can't? And yet, Wikipedians are calle to keep NPOV, so instead, Wikipedians use a source to say it for them and support their opinions instead.
• To take that into consideration, there could be endless amounts of sources with differing opinions on Blacks, and it's far too easy for Wikiwars to slip up because of it.
• The fair way around it is to just post anything (source or not) with NPOV. Just give the facts--the important ones for that matter, and details can follow.
• I can go into the African-American page right now, find good, heavy sources (lots of them), and litter it with sources pointing fingers at African-American people screwing up the United States, and you can't do anything about it because I'm not breaking any policy (I cite my reliable sources).
• I'm not going to do that because by doing that, I'm not upholding NPOV.

Wikipedians are the ones who insert the quotes and the sources. They insert opinons by citing those sources which have such, and it may not even uphold their own opinons either (I really don't think African-Americans are screwing America). Colonel Marksman 16:11, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The idea is to avoid undue weight (read WP:NPOV). As I said, it would not be neutral if we cherrypick our sources. You can find many sources saying Blacks are screwing the US of A, but there would be an equal amount of sources arguing otherwise. Therefore, it is illogical to exclude one or the other if we want to remain neutral. The key phrase here is avoiding undue weight. Johnleemk | Talk 06:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

• Another note, I am not finding it anywhere in any policy stating it is ok to allow POV from sources. Colonel Marksman 16:23, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
  • It's implied. Otherwise it would be impossible to write a neutral article about anything. Johnleemk | Talk 06:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the idea that a single person's viewpoint has no place in the encyclopedia, I would say it depends on factors like the notability of the cited person or the media propagating the view (in terms of the number of people reached); or the number of people that hold the POV in question (in other words, the number of people represented by the cited person). See WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, WP:RS, etc. AvB ÷ talk 09:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

...and another one that might provide some practical help regarding this issue: Misplaced Pages:NPOV tutorial#Space and balance --Francis Schonken 09:45, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The idea is to avoid undue weight (read WP:NPOV). As I said, it would not be neutral if we cherrypick our sources. You can find many sources saying Blacks are screwing the US of A, but there would be an equal amount of sources arguing otherwise. Therefore, it is illogical to exclude one or the other if we want to remain neutral. The key phrase here is avoiding undue weight.

• You're joking. I can't believe you actually just stated that--just like that. As per reading the lower end of this talk page, I repeal my POV vs NPOV with "MO" or "UVO".
• Even so, articles can go endless by allowing your statement (in italics) to run. Would it not make sense to only state the facts? With that, you eliminate a load of problems, quarrels, Wikiwars, etc. Whether or not you "balance" any POV (or MO) neutral with differing POV with the above example, this is an encylopedia, a place of information. I am yet to read any other encylopedia, on the Internet or not, that does not put a professional foot down and give only facts.
• Implied? I'm sorry, I refuse to go off something "implied". Lawyers love the word all too much for the very reasons I hate it. It's especially dangerous to the brainless and the smart allick. It could mean it could go either way. One can argue, "It's not there." The other, "Oh, its implied." Take it to court, and it becomes messy. Either it's policy or not.

Beside the point anyway. Would it not make sense to only state the facts? Colonel Marksman 20:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you're still missing the message people are trying to deliver. If someone says something, the fact that they said it is a fact. However, including it or not is governed by things like not giving undue weight: it has to be relevant to the subject and the opinion-giver must be themselves significant enough (i.e., any ol' nutjob with an opinion about cold fusion does not belong in the cold fusion article).

I think what you've been saying is that including the fact that certain people have certain opinions is often not neutral, and you're right. But you're focusing on the wrong thing, because no way are you going to get anyone to agree that the fact they said it isn't a fact. — Saxifrage ✎ 02:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget that NPOV deals with opinions but facts precede opinions. Bensaccount 03:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience and NPOV

The article on pseudoscience states: The term "pseudoscience" generally has negative connotations because it asserts that things so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively described as science. If a term 'generally has negative connotations', can using it for categorization purposes be NPOV? Is there a suitable term that would be politically correct in terms of WP NPOV policy? Aquirata 12:14, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

An interesting point. Do you have an example of pseudoscience that should not be characterized somewhat negatively?

FWIW, I have thought the same at times. But the problem always boiled down to a difference of opinion whether or not a theory/device/whatever had some scientific merit. All involved editors agreed that it looked scientific. Since it does not assert that something is designed with the intention to deceive (although it often is), and as such only looks at the cold facts, I fully support the existence and use of Misplaced Pages's Category:Pseudoscience. Simply following Misplaced Pages's policies in a dispute about the scientific value of an item should be sufficient to ensure a correct outcome, correct in the sense of fully satisfying NPOV requirements. And if the outcome is that it's pseudoscience, we apply the label. It's a pity that it's a negative characterization but then, we can't help it if a correct description is interpreted as negative by readers making up their own minds.

However, strange as it may seem, and I guess this is going to lean towards supporting your point, a considerable number of people take "pseudoscience" as a cue that something worthwhile is being suppressed by conspiring Big Pharma, Corrupt Scientists, Egotistical MDs, Rotten Governments etc. etc. In short, it has become a "loaded word," which may be a reason to avoid it in an encyclopedia. The label may have the opposite effect. Much like littering an article on a pseudoscientific medical treatment with words like "quackery" and other opinions/conclusions may well chase away readers that arrive to be informed but seem to find a blatantly biased article instead. Especially when warned about said conspiracy by calculating snake oil peddlers. AvB ÷ talk 08:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Good points. Looking only at the cold facts, however, is in itself a certain bias because there is much more to life than cold facts; therefore, it is POV.

I think the main argument is that the word pseudoscience represents a scientific point of view. I am not saying that everything what is generally categorized under pseudoscience is valid from a scientific point of view, far from it. However, fair representation demands that our categories should also be NPOV. If I create a category of humans say based on skin colour, I can have a black category but not a negro one. If I create a category of commercial drinks, I can have a soft drinks category but not an unhealthy coloured waters loaded with sugar one. If I create a category of people on social assistance, I cannot rename this to lazy bums. Political affinities can have a republican box but not a greedy, cold-hearted bastards one, etc.

It follows that one cannot have a science vs. pseudoscience categorization. If the people representing any of the 'pseudosciences' are offended by this label (and I think this is a given), the label must be changed to accommodate both them and the scientific community that championed the original label. It is hard to find a proper term, but perhaps alternative body of knowledge comes close. Aquirata 14:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Not bad... but I see massive problems lurking 'round the corner I'm afraid. The WP:SPOV may officially be a fossil, in reality it's alive and kicking and always ready to pronounce verdicts without providing the proof the reader needs to decide and is entitled to per WP:NPOV. It's really understandable; its proponents are so often "right" that it may become a habit to demand respect. The problem is when they're not (or only partly) right. The "pseudoscience" label (the word itself) is an instrument they will not easily relinquish. I think it has been tried before, and failed. See the category's talk page... AvB ÷ talk 16:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

A very interesting discussion here! Unfortunately for precisely this word - "pseudoscience" - it lies in the cards that those whose belief is labeled a pseudoscience will often vehemently oppose the label and claim that their viewpoint is very much scientific. They won't be happy with a politically correct euphemism. No, they actually make claims to the word "science" itself. It can't be any other way, since they don't understand the difference between science and pseudoscience well enough to have avoided getting involved with pseudoscientific thinking in the first place. The Talk page at pseudoscience is ample proof of what I've just described. There you will find defenders of pseudoscience claiming that their particular POV is scientific. The only solution is to purge Misplaced Pages of the word itself, which is just what they would love to see happen. But Misplaced Pages must not be made a party to political correctness, revisionism, or censorship. A tough nut to crack. -- Fyslee 21:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

AvB, I fully appreciate the challenges of trying to change the mind of the scientific community.:) However, it would be a shame if that was to discourage us from trying to represent what NPOV is all about. Aquirata 14:45, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The term "NPOV" needs alternate. It is Counterproductive

After rounding the bend in my WP learning curve, I have come to realize that the terminology "Neutral Point of View" is actually doing more harm than good. Every discussion and argument tends to bring this up, one accusing another of not being in conformity with WP:NPOV. That should make a red flag go up that there is something wrong. Rules should be clear enough for the majority to understand what it means. The very wording lends itself to being misunderstood. The idea of "point of view" immediately brings to mind something "personal". This causes a lot of battles. It really is something more objective than that. I witness people who have had much experience here falling into the trap of treating NPOV contrary to the intention of the policy. The policy states that NPOV cannot be interpreted inseparably from verifiability. This is crucial. People don't seem to get what that really entails. It means that NPOV really only comes into play because you have found that two or more reliable sources of verification are opposed to each other. Once that happens NPOV is a solution to it. NPOV is really just a reasonable Reconciliation of Reliable Sources. (RRS, or AWR=Average Weight of Reliability). That means the sources themselves must be weighed as to reliability, and an average taken so that the final wording of the article conforms to that reconciliation. You could have a New York Times article saying the opposite of the Washington Post. The final RRS would probably be 50/50 reliability and perfectly neutral (though one could probably argue section and authorship since newspapers more hastily print depending on those factors). Then again, why choose reconciling opposites when you know that reality cannot have opposites in truth? Why not try to find which one is correct? If you have a source from the Scientific American and Readers Digest opposed on a fact, it would depend upon the subject matter (science or not?) and their own referenced sources. If it was more of a scientific fact, the weight would be in favor of the SA article and the final RRS (formerly NPOV) would be wording in accord with the average weight of reliability. Bottom line, personal opinion is minimized. But a major factor in minimizing it is by changing NPOV to something more accurate as I suggested. What needs to be done also is to have a separate page of WOR (Weight of Reliability). Let's face it, we all know that different magazines and newspapers have varying degrees of reliability. Newspapers are notorious for haste and waste when it comes to errors. Just because something is published in a magazine doesn't necessarily give is a high degree of reliability either (Mad Magazine?). As WP says, it is based on verifiability, and the term NPOV is constantly at odds because it gives people the wrong impression of what it is all about. The better the rules, the less argument, hard drive and administrator time spent. Moderation and arbitrations, etc. would be lessened. RFC's would be easier. Admins would have more time just handling truly abusive people rather than the abuses fostered by ill-chosen policy terminology. So far I have already found another contradiction in the policy, which I have recently expressed on the Talk page for Verifiability, which involes the guideline on reliable sources reducing policy to a mere guideline itself. (Diligens 11:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC))

I agree. People seem to confuse:

• Neutral point of view, "NPOV" as the opposite of "POV", rather than a style of POV.
• POV pushing as the mention of a POV, rather than the removal of all but one POV.

Perhaps better terms would be something like "neutral style", "personal point of view", "verifiable viewpoints", and "viewpoint selection bias".

--Iantresman 12:27, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Here's a strategy for handling that issue I once proposed ( - dates back to October 2004):

But POV is bad, isn't it?

No it isn't: the expression POV is used by many wikipedians, but in fact it is a confusing term, often leading to a re-introduction of the "objectivity" concept, which above is dismissed for use in Misplaced Pages context. This can be exemplified by following quote (taken from a real Misplaced Pages discussion):

inherent POV Have moved content to the objective

The confusion comes from the fact that POV can also be read as the abbreviation of "Point Of View" (which is inherently good for Misplaced Pages, or, at least, the basic stuff Misplaced Pages is made of), while many wikipedians use POV in the meaning of opposite of NPOV. Even when attempting to use the expression POV exclusively in this latter meaning, the objectivity concept appears to be lurking around the corner.

If you want to use an abbreviation that means opposite of NPOV, try any of these:

• MO - Mere Opinion
• UVO - UnVerifiable Opinion
• UFO - UnFalsifiable Opinion (resemblance to more common UFO's probably not all that bad)
• UO - Un-verifiable/falsifiable Opinion

... I recall it survived a few weeks or so.

The longer Misplaced Pages exists, the deeper-rooted the dual meaning of POV ("opposite of NPOV" - "point of view") appears to become.

But on the whole (taking the bad and the good), I don't think the use of the NPOV concept in Misplaced Pages is counterproductive, nor do I see any approach that demonstrably would be more successful. --Francis Schonken 12:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Break out "Objections to NPOV" as separate article?

A large part of this article is an essay-like discussion of hypothetical common arguments and responses.

Can we put these in an article Common objections to NPOV or Validity of NPOV and summarize in a dozen lines here? Essay-style material to this extent isn't really needed in a major policy. Better we summarize here and point to detail. FT2 (Talk) 11:32, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you want to start (or "split off") a new policy, guideline or essay page I'd recommend wikipedia:how to create policy#Guidelines for creating policies and guidelines. I mean, it's not as if wikipedia:content forking applies to what you're proposing (in that case, you would clearly be proposing a POV fork).

I also recommend to try to get acquainted with wikipedia's namespace concept, e.g. at wikipedia:namespace. I mean, neither ] nor ] would be feasible as a page name to which to split a part of wikipedia:neutral point of view. --Francis Schonken 12:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The basic point holds, however: this page is an essay as much as a didactic explanation of policy. Perhaps simply WP:NPOV and WP:NPOV Expanded. Marskell 13:00, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

...as does my basic point: I recommend not to do this without the guidance provided at wikipedia:how to create policy --Francis Schonken 13:13, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

No. WP:NPOV is exemplary of how all wikipedia namespace pages should look. A reasoned NPOV discussion of the how and why of each aspect of a particular guideline. Policy pages may describe our internal processes, but that does not mean that they should not be held to the same standards as our encyclopedia pages. Rather, over time it should be our objective to edit all our other policy/guideline/essay pages into a similar form. Kim Bruning 13:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC) (1)yes, I'm aware of the recursion

Exemplary? I think it would be rather awful if all the namespaces looked like this. Think of WP:NOT. The main points are easy to remember and easy to cite; the explanations are unpacked but not over-long. There is a lot of fat on the NPOV bone, by contrast. Marskell 13:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

It depends on how you think about the wikipedia guidelines. If you're a legalist, keeping things short and imperative is good. Misplaced Pages hasn't been built on legalist grounds, however. An objective (NPOV) representation of existing consensus is probably the better approach, as it will more closely match actual practice that way. Think of wikipedia namespace pages as an encyclopedia specialised in wikipedia best practices. Kim Bruning 14:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Appreciating "short and imperative" doesn't require legalism (I think I'm rather opposed to legalism, actually). I would say: simple but not simplistic. This page is not that. It's meandering. Marskell 22:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience subsection contradicts rest of policy

The introduction states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This is further clarified as all significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one, that readers are left to form their own opinions, that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each, and that we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone.

This is in direct conflict with what follows under the Pseudoscience heading:

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false... The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view.

There are two problems here:

1. The entire subsection is written from a scientific point of view, which is by definition cannot be NPOV.

2. The article supposes that the scientific point of view represents the majority, which cleary may not generally be true.

I would suggest a serious NPOV reword, including the title, which in itself is POV. Aquirata 14:07, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Most scientific articles appear to be written (a) from a scientific point of view (b) Not only dismiss all tiny/extreme minority views, but won't even describe significant minority views. --Iantresman 14:37, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I should also mention, this is not referring to just Pseudoscientific articles, but articles on peer-reviewed science, describing peer-reviewed minority views. --Iantresman 14:48, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line regarding pseudoscience & the NPOV policy appears to be (at least it appears thus to me) that wikipedia recommends to describe pseudoscience as ... ehm... err... pseudoscience. Do you have a problem with that? --Francis Schonken 15:08, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Francis, I have quoted from the policy to support my argument. I would like to see that you do the same so we can have an intelligent discussion and not just voicing opinions. Aquirata 15:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line is also that "significant minority" views are often claimed to be "extremely small / tiny /extreme" views, and excluded completely. --Iantresman 15:34, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict, @Aquirata:) Well, about your second point, I think in fact you are right, example:

• Karl Popper describes Sigmund Freud's psychoanalysis as pseudoscience.
• Despite the criticism, I suppose the validity of psychoanalysis is still a "majority view" (at least, the psychoanalysis article does not make one suspect that to be otherwise).

So maybe the paragraph could be changed to

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority view as the majority view and the minority view as the minority view; both (or "all" if there are more than two) views can be qualified according to their scientific/pseudoscientific validity, that is, balanced according to the respective weight of such qualifications given in reliable sources. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

But I don't completely agree with your first point. You're kind of making an assumption (in all clarity: *also* a POV assumption) that the NPOV policy should by definition be NPOV itself. It shouldn't, in the same way that Popper's demarcation criterion (i.e. falsifiability - ), is itself not "scientific" according to its own criterion. The criterion is philosophical (duh! - Popper was a philosopher). In the same way Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy describes, among other wikipedia policies and guidelines, how (and/or "what selection of") human knowledge Misplaced Pages attempts to contain (see also wikipedia:what Misplaced Pages is not) - that is never Point Of View-free, see also wikipedia:neutral point of view#The neutral point of view, second paragraph: " the neutral point of view is a point of view ". --Francis Schonken 16:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The current language gives editors writing from the SPOV the right to declare anything they don't believe/like/etc. to be pseudoscience and therefore a minority view even if it is well documented and eminently sourcable (I concede in advance that it may well be well-documented and eminently sourcable pseudoscience). Regardless, NPOV would allow editors to juxtapose both views and give both space in proportion to the impact these views have. If the SPOV has sufficient quotes to demolish the opposition's assertions, it's OK. But if it doesn't, and other editors are still expected to accept the "pseudoscience" verdict where all they have is the personal opinion of editors that happen to be academics/doctors/chemists/etc., the NPOV is being ignored and that is a bad thing. AvB ÷ talk 23:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Do any of you whose POV's are, well, anti-"SPOV", have any idea how ridiculous this is? First, being upset that an article on say, special relativity, would be written from a "scientific" POV (actually it's written from a scientific perspective as physics is, after all science) is absurd in the extreme and a willful misuse and misreading of the NPOV policy. Additionally, the purpose of an encyclopedia is, I believe, to provide knowledge (scientia in Latin) and in the case of science articles, one would assume that they would be written from a scientific persperctive in order to fulfill that requirement.

Second, pseudoscience does in fact have a defintion and the only time there can be a true dispute is between pseudo- and protoscience, and that diuspute resolves itsaelf relatively quickly.

Third, Aquirata, et al, are significantly (and one assumes consciuosly) oversimplifying and misrepresenting the processes of how a topic is determined to be pseudoscience.

Fourth, this petition, for want of a better word, to needlesly rewrite the NPOV policy wouldn't have anything to do with some of the sciences that appear to contradict a religious, supernatural or paranormal POV would it?

Finally, before anyone points out any Wiki policies to me, save your time -- This is one of those instances where failing to put all of one's cards on the table will ultimately be detrimental to Misplaced Pages. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 08:46, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Jim, I do not recognize my contributions (or myself) in your words. For example, I am not proposing any rewrites. Could you please remove my user name from the above? AvB ÷ talk 20:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The point stands as a QED with this cite: "The current language gives editors writing from the SPOV the right to declare anything they don't believe/like/etc". &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 21:56, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

That was not the point I tried to make. It seems you responded out of context, probably because you joined this part of the discussion after it had been concluded. If you want to judge me and my contributions, it would help to read the remainder, from Francis' response to here. AvB ÷ talk 23:34, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

(refactored, see diff AvB ÷ talk 00:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but I don't know whether you see my proposed rewrite of the second paragraph of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view#Pseudoscience as a solution to that problem?

Currently that section reads:

How are we to write articles about pseudoscientific topics, about which majority scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention?

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

Pseudoscience can be seen as a social phenomenon and therefore significant. However, pseudoscience should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportional to the rest of the article.

There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Misplaced Pages should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the scientists' view of pseudoscience can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoscience.

Inserting the paragraph rewrite I proposed above, the new version would be:

How are we to write articles about pseudoscientific topics, about which majority scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention?

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority view as the majority view and the minority view as the minority view; both (or "all" if there are more than two) views can be qualified according to their scientific/pseudoscientific validity, that is, balanced according to the respective weight of such qualifications given in reliable sources. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

Pseudoscience can be seen as a social phenomenon and therefore significant. However, pseudoscience should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportional to the rest of the article.

There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Misplaced Pages should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the scientists' view of pseudoscience can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoscience. Further, the "demarcation" of what is science and what isn't can be very different, depending on view: for example the neo-positivist views of the Wiener Kreis on what defines "science" are fairly different from, and basicly incompatible with, Karl Popper's unique demarcation criterion, falsifiability. Note that Misplaced Pages is not equipped to test the scientific validity of a theory (see wikipedia:no original research), but can only record and summarize what reliable sources have contended regarding the topic at hand.

(applying some other tweaks too) - Is this better, or isn't it? --Francis Schonken 07:38, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll second Francis Schonken on that - there is a line between NPOV and being so inclusive of minority points of view that you repeat their own framing of an issue, which is an inherently biased point of view again - in other words, some points of view are opposed to the official Misplaced Pages point of view of using a neutral point of view. Minority points of view often go farther than advocating that their position is equally valid or equally scientific, but declare Opposite Day and characterize the mainstream or consensus point of view or scientific paradigm to be fringe and pseudoscientific - for example, as Cardinal Schönborn did in his NYTimes op-ed characterizing "intelligent design" as the only scientifically valid theory for the origin of species and organic evolution as pseudoscience, or this guy advocating that it is unscientific to believe that the Apollo missions actually landed on the Moon. At some point, choosing objective facts over arbitrary impressions is taking a point of view. Otherwise, we're reduced to the sort of "he said she said" that allows all arbitrary opinions to share equal billing with observable reality. There is no way to please the ubiquitous segment of the population that thinks reality has a well-known liberal bias, nor should we try. Rather, if we make discerning selections from reputably referenced sources to accurately characterize mainstream and minority points of view as such, we'll be in good shape. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl) 23:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I've read but not truly digested this proposal as yet. First impression: it is an improvement. First question: in an article on a specific subject deemed pseudoscientific, does this version also allow editors to draw on other, "non-scientific" sources to describe the "pseudoscience"? Given a well-researched subject that is not at all controversial in the opinion of experts in the field, where the media have widely reported an opposing view deemed pseudoscientific because "it's obviously pseudoscience, no better than patent nonsense" or due to the lack of publications in peer-reviewed magazines, especially in the area of double-blind etc. research, successful replication of results, etc... The old version allows editors to present as the majority view (in my book >51%) the SPOV based on peer-reviewed publications. My main point is that reliable sources for a mainstream SPOV are peer-reviewed publications, while reliable sources for other POVs/social phenomena are e.g. media like newspapers, radio, tv, books. The language should make it clear whether or not the latter are acceptable when describing (pseudo)science not sufficiently described in peer-reviewed publications. I think they are.

Many expert editors seem to have a strong tendency, when dealing with (pseudo)science, to only allow peer-reviewed sources, apparently based on this very policy section. Even when describing a POV or subject practically ignored by mainstream science. A number of them are unwilling to allow the inclusion of descriptions of such alternative views and some actively work towards their removal from the encyclopedia (judging from their user pages). I believe that this is not a good thing. It leaves blind spots and assumes blind trust of the reader in the SPOV instead of the wish to avail oneself of sufficient information to be able to decide. As any GP will be able to confirm, blind trust in science is disappearing fast in the real world.

Anyway - even if this version would allow non-scientific sources, it still seems to declares the SPOV the majority view, even in cases where many lay people happen to believe differently, if it disallows the use of lay sources. I'm not against preferential treatment for the SPOV in cases where it is not the only POV, but shouldn't the size of the default majority be limited, instead of assigning a majority theoretically approaching 100%? I would prefer to declare the SPOV, say, a 60% majority by default and allow the remaining space to be based on notability as normally assessed by Wikipedians (impact/notability in general, not limited to mainstream scientists: number of propopents/adherents, media attention, books sold, political clout, etc.). This, in fact, describes a fair number of existing articles, but in other cases would make it easier to describe what's happening in the world without being kept from doing so by a consensus based on this part of the policy. Sometimes taken as evidence for the very conspiracy theories used to help define pseudoscience... AvB ÷ talk 11:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Tx for your comments. Taking a quick glance at them, I'd say (and that is also the thrust I tried to put in my update proposal) that these things have to be sorted out at wikipedia:reliable sources (or, before changing that guideline, best at wikipedia talk:reliable sources)

Now, that page is a guideline and not a policy. IMHO that is logical, while when one starts to define what makes a source "reliable" there shure are a lot of practical principles, but they don't apply in such absolute terms as the NPOV policy ("non-negotiable"). Weighing reliability of sources is a tricky business, with a lot of casuistics, and indeed: exceptions.

To give an example of that: There's this resource, "self-published" by a guy named Niclas Fogwall, http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/satie.html where, for instance, some original research by Satie scholars, not published elsewhere, is contained (e.g. this "updated" list of Satie compositions contains original research results by Robert Orledge, one of such scholars: http://www.af.lu.se/~fogwall/list.html )... Taking wikipedia:reliable sources to the letter would mean this website can not be used as a "source" on Satie-related topics. Nonetheless, that is precisely what I did in several Satie-related articles (usually, along with printed material), without a second thought, because every major living Satie-scholar one way or another contributed to or otherwise approved of that website (... however without a formal "peer review" procedure being described on the site).

That's why a guideline is so much more convenient for sorting out reliability of sources, than a policy page.

Further, I don't think NPOV can make too strict distinctions between "SPOV/scientific" type of topics and "POVs/social phenomena" like you seem to propose, again while "demarcation" of what is "scientific" is as yet an unresolved issue, with many differing points of view... Is "history" scientific? To some it is, others merely see it as an extension of something to do with literature... Without needing to make that discussion, NPOV can be applied to all these topics, and also what qualifies a source as "reliable" has no fundamental distinction (although there may be some practical ones) for all these fields of human knowledge. To me, that has alway been the *genius* of wikipedia, while the NPOV/Verifiability/NOR system allows to achieve quality in all fields of knowledge, without fundamental difference in the approach for how to achieve that.

So, no, I'm not too fond of SPOV factionalists. But, quite naturally, on most topics the "scientifically qualified" sources are considered the most reliable. Whether the "scientist" producing/describing the data is a historian, or whatever. No harm to underline that in the NPOV policy. No use to cause false expectations to the "scientifically extatic" (or whatever) in the NPOV policy. Marginal POV's will be thrown out in the future, as they were in the past, by the available procedures & guidance (e.g. XfD, or wikipedia:dispute resolution, etc) --Francis Schonken 13:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Thanks for once again sharing your WP knowledge/insights. Very helpful for editors who are, like me, on the road from Misplaced Pages newbie to veteran.

Just to clarify one point (which I agree should be discussed at wikipedia:reliable sources) - I am not in favor of any special treatment for the SPOV. I feel the current policy is, as argued by Aquirata at the top of this section. The 60% was just an idea aiming to lower the ceiling from almost 100% since outright removal will not reach consensus for a long time to come, if ever. IMO, science does not need this special position and application of NPOV without it will not change the fact that the SPOV is a pretty good POV to include in an article on a (pseudo)scientific subject. But it is not the only POV. Readers will be better informed by also describing POV(s) of notable groups/people/etc. - peer-reviewed sources are great, but we do not have to exclude (or give minimal coverage to) non-SPOV sources. <stepping off soapbox now> AvB ÷ talk 15:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Francis, I generally like the direction you are heading to. I would propose further tweaks as follows:

How are we to write articles about alternative bodies of knowledge ('pseudoscientific' topics)?

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we will be describing alternative views without asserting whether they are true or false. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, alternative views were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority view as the majority view and the minority view as the minority view; both (or "all" if there are more than two) views can be qualified according to their scientific/alternative validity, that is, balanced according to the respective weight of such qualifications given in reliable sources. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

The existence of alternative bodies of knowledge can be seen as a social phenomenon and therefore significant. However, alternative views should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportional to the rest of the article.

There is a minority of Wikipedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Misplaced Pages should adopt a "scientific point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the scientists' view of alternative bodies of knowledge ('pseudoscience') can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of those alternative views. Further, the "demarcation" of what is science and what isn't can be very different, depending on view: for example the neo-positivist views of the Wiener Kreis on what defines "science" are fairly different from, and basicly incompatible with, Karl Popper's unique demarcation criterion, falsifiability. Note that Misplaced Pages is not equipped to test the scientific validity of a theory (see wikipedia:no original research), but can only record and summarize what reliable sources have contended regarding the topic at hand.

Proposed changes

Proposed changes:

1. Title: changed to NPOV wording, deleted second part (which unecessarily narrows the subject)

2.First paragraph: neutralized first sentence, deleted second, replaced 'pseudoscience' with 'alternative' in third

3. Second paragraph: replaced 'pseudoscience' with 'alternative bodies of knowledge' and 'alternative views', prefaced it with 'The existence of'

4. Third paragraph: replaced 'pseudoscience' with 'alternative bodies of knowledge' and 'alternative views' in second sentence

In general, I feel that this version preserves the original intent of this policy but uses language that is neutral and not offending to people representing alternative bodies of knowledge ('pseudoscience'). After all, Misplaced Pages is not written for scientists only. :) Aquirata 14:41, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned: no way - not withstanding embellishing (not "NPOV") phrases, this reads like a pseudo-science POV-pusher's pamphlet. I think that above I've made clear what I'd think an improvement. If this is how that is understood, I'd prefer to keep the version that is currently on the project page. Even with its possible internal contradiction (depening on which philosophy of science one is adhering to), at least it makes more or less clear where it draws the line w.r.t. to pseudo-science (and with regard to SPOV). --Francis Schonken 16:52, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The current wording advocates SPOV. Misplaced Pages is NPOV. The contradiction is clear. Why would making the description neutral offend anyone if we are advocating NPOV? Aquirata 17:21, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, you didn't even read what I wrote?

You're kind of making an assumption (in all clarity: *also* a POV assumption) that the NPOV policy should by definition be NPOV itself.

Clear? --Francis Schonken 17:37, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

One thinks it should be. Sorry AvB Aquirata, but Francis is correct -- what you wrote reads like a pseudoscientist's bible. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Except that I didn't write it. You're wrong here Jim. I have no difference of opinion with Francis at this point. I think you're confusing what I wrote with someone else's contributions. We've met before on WP so you might have had some idea that I am not anti-SPOV (I'm anti-WP:SPOV - the unimplemented policy, not the scientific viewpoint). And if you don't remember me, it would help if you looked over my editing record before coming up with accusations. AvB ÷ talk 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

(ri) Yep, and I apologize. I struck out your name and added the correct one. Sorry. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This would be hilarious is it weren't an attempt at being serious, "alternative bodies of knowledge", which I guess means that my children's belief in Santa is knowledge, not folklore. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Fraud

Some of the relevant content is being pushed to support fraud. This will increase as WP looks like a credible reference, and if it is unchecked (for instance by prefacing such articles "This is a fraud") WP's credibility as a reference will decline again as it slumps into a mass of spam. Conversely, in respect of some of these frauds, quackeries etc, such as Rife "science", multiplication of websites and therefore Google hits is a part of the multi-level marketing or other apparatus of the fraud. To take it that if there are some number of Google hits this indicates a level of belief that requires aWP appear credulous is not a good idea. The suggestion above that a scientific attitude to (scientific) topics excludes all but the mainstream view is not born out by experience, however, if someone persists in claiming that vibrations of th right frequency can explode bacteria and cure disease, for instance, this is not material which should be placed in a WP article, unless it is clearly labelled, and moreover labelled where it will show in the minimal snippet that Google shows for hits, that it is untrue/bad data/a health fraud/scam etc. Explain what is without weight, but not what is notMidgley 18:50, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Royal Rife is a good example. I believe it should be treated like any other subjects per NPOV. Pseudoscience is to be disproved, not to be ridiculed. Both true believers and those about to become true believers respond characteristically to ridicule. They walk away where at least the latter might have been convinced. You are left preaching to the converted. Science-pseudoscience 0-1. AvB ÷ talk 20:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

PS I think you make a good point regarding the Google snippets. But it doesn't always work like that. This search shows that Rife fraudsters have found ways to drive the first Misplaced Pages hit down. An important phenomenon in need of good coverage. AvB ÷ talk 20:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

OK then, let's go to an imaginary land called Imagia, where science is treated as follows:

Pseudoreligion (sometimes called ‘science’) is a term applied to a body of alleged faith that is portrayed as religious but diverges substantially from the required standards for religious belief or is unsupported by sufficient religious authority.

Now, imagine you are writing a policy about science in Imagedia. How would you like a wording such as this:

How are we to write articles about pseudoreligious (also called by some ‘scientific’) topics, about which majority religious opinion is that the pseudoreligious opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention?

If we're going to represent the sum total of human knowledge, then we must concede that we will be describing beliefs repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoreligion were on a par with religion; rather, the task is to represent the majority (religious) belief as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoreligious) belief as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how religists have received pseudoreligious theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

Pseudoreligion can be seen as a social phenomenon and therefore significant. However, pseudoreligion should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportional to the rest of the article.

There is a minority of Imagedians who feel so strongly about this problem that they believe Imagedia should adopt a "religious point of view" rather than a "neutral point of view." However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy, given that the religists' view of pseudoreligion can be clearly, fully, and fairly explained to believers of pseudoreligion.

Now, this is all fun and games - I am not trying to draw parallels with religion, just using an image to make a point. Does this make my position any clearer? And yes, of course, an NPOV policy cannot be anything else than NPOV. Unless we want to advocate hypocrisy. Aquirata 20:13, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Aquirata, all fun and games. Your analogy works if there is a religious method comparable to the scientific method which provides a systematic and historically accurate reference point. Your under a weird impression that people only use the word "science" to disprove people who are "fringe." Well, no. People use science to describe everything from a boiling kettle to the period of Neptune's orbit. Read the wording again carefully; "SPOV" is not rejected because it is opposed to "NPOV" but because "NPOV" broadly already includes it (the majority scientific viewpoint will be allowed due weight, as it should be) but less rigidly. Put more simply, the Misplaced Pages is generally written from a "Scientific Point of View" but there's no didactic mechanism to demand it from people. This is properly flexible--not "repeat the research paper as it stands" but "accept scientific consensus as the base referent."

Your argument here is a semantic shell-game, similar to your arguments on astrology and related, to force people to hold arguments not accepted by mainstream science equal to those that are. This policy (at least in this regard) is just fine. Marskell 22:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

SPOV is not the same as NPOV (S comes a few places after N :)); anything other than NPOV is POV - I suggest you read and reread the policies and guidelines. Aquirata 23:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me you are attempting to establish the ne plus ultra definition of "neutral"; one that no human, given that humans are inherently subjective, can ever reach. The irony, of course, is that what you are actually attempting to do is contravert the NPOV policies to suit your own POVs. Sorry, but "what's your sign?" is not an NPOV question.  ;) &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is also a POV, that of N. There's no such thing as an observerless observation; choosing to try a neutral POV is also a choice, one that is much rarer in actual practice than its adoption as a label for something else.

The definition of science incorporates the best method known to humanity for actually neutralizing the endless potential arbitrariness of points of view to which human thought tends. Stick with me here. Here is the legendary physicist Richard Feynman's take (comparing science to "Cargo Cult Science", or pseudoscience):

"But there is one feature I notice that is generally missing in Cargo Cult Science... It’s a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty - a kind of leaning over backwards. For example, if you’re doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid - not only what you think is right about it: other causes that could possibly explain your results; and things you thought of that you’ve eliminated by some other experiment, and how they worked - to make sure the other fellow can tell they have been eliminated.

"Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given, if you know them. You must do the best you can - if you know anything at all wrong, or possibly wrong - to explain it. If you make a theory, for example, and advertise it, or put it out, then you must also put down all the facts that disagree with it, as well as those that agree with it. ...

"In summary, the idea is to try to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgment in one particular direction or another."

Scientific point of view therefore dovetails nicely with neutral point of view: we present all references, including their sources, and go out of our way to present and source potentially conflicting points of view. We go out of our way to present references and evidence that potentially conflict with the minority points of view, as well as with the mainstream points of view. Who could argue with that? - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 23:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

A great example, no doubt. Feynman was a uniquely gifted individual, and science can be grateful that it had such a wonderful person contribute to it. Whether scientists in practice follow his guidance is another question. All too often, peer pressure and competition force everyday scientists to bend the rules here and there.

The main point, however, is not whether the SPOV is the right POV to use. Misplaced Pages is a factual representation of humanity at this point in time. Why are we ashamed of presenting 'pseudoscience'? Our job is not to prove that 'pseudoscience' is wrong and science is right; but it is the proportional presentation (i.e. reporting) of both in a factual manner. Let science and 'pseudoscience' speak for themselves, and let the reader make up his own mind. Otherwise, one might think that the more scientifically minded feel threatened by 'pseudoscience'. Aquirata 00:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Fortunately theory and practice of scientific epistemology are distinguishable. As for your advice, I cannot find anything in it that is inconsistent with my own. Going out of our way to give all of the information to help others to judge the value of your contribution; not just the information that leads to judgment in one particular direction or another, does not contemplate being ashamed of presenting pseudoscience or proving it wrong; it is precisely to present all the facts and let them speak for themselves. - Reaverdrop (talk/nl/wp:space) 00:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Let the facts speak for themselves is in fact one of the examples on the policy page. In that light, I have trouble with the following expressions:

• Majority scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention: Presupposes what majority opinion is; assumes scientific opinion is the arbiter
• We must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us: Assumes description is done from the SPOV; those representing 'pseuodoscience' surely won't have to concede anything, and their own views will not be repugnant to them
• Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds: Again, from a scientific perspective
• Majority (scientific) view: Same
• Minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view: Same

I can see that some editors below assume that I am arguing for pseudoscience, which is far from being the case. All I'm arguing for is NPOV, which means 'describing a dispute fairly', i.e. without scientific bias. Let the facts speak for themselves! Anything else is a misrepresentation and bias. Aquirata 10:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

"Assumes scientific opinion is the arbiter". Yes, broadly this page does—or, as Reaverdrop put it, it assumes NPOV will generally "dovetail" with the SPOV because the scientific method and the modern system of scientific peer review strive for exactly the presentation of information NPOV demands. "But that's a viewpoint." Having had a hand in drafting the sentence, I'd point you to this early on the page: "As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints."

What you're really targetting here is Undue weight. Reduce science to an "equal perspective" position alongside "alternatives" and then give them each equal weight in articles; in letter and spirit that is not what NPOV is. "Chemists say X", "Alchemists say Y" is not on. You can post massive missives all you like, but it isn't going to change. Marskell 11:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• The neutral point of view is ... not the absence or elimination of viewpoints: Correct. Now apply it in an NPOV manner, and do not try to eliminate something that exists. SPOV will never, by definition, become NPOV no matter how much it strives for it.
• What you're really targetting here is Undue weight: This is a misrepresentation. Let me then quote myself: 'Our job is not to prove that 'pseudoscience' is wrong and science is right; but it is the proportional presentation (i.e. reporting) of both in a factual manner.'

Aquirata 12:59, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The section you quoted only gives pseudoscience as an example. The point is that majority views be represented as such, and as a matter of fact, that will tend to be the scientific view. I don't see a problem with the wording as it stands. SlimVirgin 15:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience v. WP:NPOV

I see the arguments by the pseudoscience crowd to rewrite our bedrock policy have been resurrected. In fact, it all looks very familiar. Almost as if I've read this before. FeloniousMonk 03:01, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It does sound familiar. Which part of non-negotiable don't they understand? — Dunc|☺ 08:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

All 13 letters of the word. Of course, it would be nice if they would be upfront about why they find science to be scary and bad, but, I suppose that's asking too much, eh? &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 08:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

— Dunc|☺ 11:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk, (a) you can't possible know whether those who present such an argument are part of the "pseudoscience crowd", even though are are entitled to your opinion (b) However, labelling such editors as such apears to be an example of an ad hominem, as described in Misplaced Pages's policy of No Personal Attacks.

I will also point out that Misplaced Pages policy is not your bedrock policy, but the policy of all who contribute to Misplaced Pages. I suspect that such arguments will be raised time and time again, until a more contructive solution can be found that doesn't involve name-calling. --Iantresman 11:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone here made these exact same arguments in the exact same manner ad nauseum several months ago disrupting this page to no end. Trying to force the issue, they instead ended up the subject of an RFC. Now I see the same arguments and methods being used here again. It simply looks very suspicious. FeloniousMonk 15:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Jim62sch, your comment that certain groups find "science to be scary and bad" seems similar to the counterpart, why do scientists find "neutrally describing minority views, to be scary and bad" --Iantresman 11:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I just think they find them to be stupid. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Let me put the argument in a clear form:

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is NPOV

• The term 'pseudoscience' is SPOV
• This is a contradiction
• Therefore, the term 'pseudoscience' must be replaced so it becomes NPOV

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is NPOV

• The Pseudoscience section within the policy is SPOV
• This is a contradiction
• Therefore, the Pseudoscience section must be rewritten so it becomes NPOV

Which statement above is not factual? Which part of the above contains a fault in reasoning? Which part of the above do you not agree with, and why? Which part of the above implies to you 'pseudoscience crowd'? Which part of this is negotiable? Which part implies that I (or anybody else) would 'find science to be scary and bad'?

I believe the above is absolutely crucial to Misplaced Pages lest we become hypocrites in our own land. It has nothing to do with the validity of 'pseudoscience'. Aquirata 12:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the term "pseudoscience" is not Neutral Point of View (NPOV), but I don't think it is Scientific Point of View either. Reading through the definition of pseudoscience, I see a strong corrlation suggesting that the use of the term "pseudoscience" is pseudoscience, and there is a term to describe this: Pseudoskepticism. But you're right, "pseudoscience" is a judgemental term that has no place in an NPOV policy statement. --Iantresman 13:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is NPOV

• SPOV conforms to NPOV

• Pseudoscience is a large and difficult category on the Misplaced Pages

• The NPOV page should directly address it.

I'm not seeing any fundamental contradictions. Marskell 14:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed at great length previously. Read the archives. There is no contradiction and the policy is fine as it stands. You're going to have to sooner or later accept that there's little to no support for what you propose and drop the matter. If it's sooner, good for you; if its later, then you may well be viewed as disruptively trying to force the issue and the community takes a very dim view of that. Especially from someone who's been contributing to the project barely 1 month. I suggest becoming more familiar with the project and it's foundations before trying to rewrite its most fundamental policy. FeloniousMonk 15:07, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's unhelpful for people to try to rewrite one of the most important policies without having much editing experience. SlimVirgin 15:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

To Marskell, FeloniousMonk and SlimVirgin: Please try to address the issue at hand. You have no idea what experience other people are bringing to the project, so I'd stay clear of discussing length of stay. The implication that only one person on Earth out of the 6 billion or so can argue this point this way is a great leap of faith. The fact that this issue keeps coming up may be indicative that there is a bigger problem here than you realize. Please address directly articulated objections and questions directly. Saying that there is no contradiction and the policy is fine as it stands; you're going to have to sooner or later accept that there's little to no support for what you propose and drop the matter and I'm not seeing any fundamental contradictions without any further explanation adds no value to the argument and doesn't support your position. I have shown using deductive reasoning that there is contradiction. I'd like to see your counter-argument using a similar (scientific) method.

Iantresman: Agreed, the term 'pseudoscience' being SPOV can be argued, but it is clearly not NPOV. Aquirata 16:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing of value in the objection (which has already been raised and settled here previously, again: WP:RTA), so there's nothing to be gained by addressing it again now. It was a specious and expedient objection then, and it's just as specious and expedient now. There are ample reasons given in past dicussions as to why your objection to the policy is a misbegotten notion. FeloniousMonk 17:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It's logical to raise a person's Misplaced Pages experience when they are seeking to change a bedrock policy. Obviously, I object to these sorts of changes, as I have in the past. · Katefan0 17:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

A point many agree with but rejected out-of-hand by Aquirata and his predecessor. FeloniousMonk 17:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not a question of what experience people bring to the project, Aquirata, but of what Misplaced Pages editing experience they bring to this policy page. People who haven't edited much often have difficulty seeing how the policies work in practise and how they interact with each other. SlimVirgin 17:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

You would think that those who have this "experience" would have no problem in explaining the whys and wherefores behind policy. Yet I continually see patronising comments about "experienced editors", to go and "read the archives", to claim that no changes are required, the removal of dialogue from the discussion pages, and criticisms editors having the cheek to try and engage in discussion. What I don't see, is a common courtesy to directly answer the questions. --Iantresman 18:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience is, for Misplaced Pages's purposes, at best an extreme minority opinion. The sources for pseudoscience do not qualify as reliable sources, so excluding them from pages about science is not a violation of the NPOV policy. Hutton Gibson may promote a pseudoscientific geocentric view of the solar system, but since he is not a reliable source, and his views are extreme minority opinions, this viewpoint does not belong in the Solar System article. Of course, it can be (and is discussed) in the Modern geocentrism article, which is an article specifically about this pseudo-scientific theory. Jayjg 18:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually pseudoscience, and examples of pseudosceince, are not necessarily minority opinions, some views are shared by million of people (incorrectly). I suspect that more people "believe" astrology than there have ever been astronomers. That means it's a majority view, that deserves description (all views are described fairly and without bias). --Iantresman 18:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

By "majority" we do not mean we take a poll of everyone in the world, and vote based on that. It's actually impossible to know what a "majority" of people believe on any particular subject; nor are the opinions of almost all of them relevant. Rather, a majority point of view is, in fact, a majority of what reliable sources have to say on the matter. Keep in mind that Misplaced Pages is still an encyclopedia, attempting to describe verifiable, cited information from reliable sources. It's not a giant polling service showing world opinion. Jayjg 18:40, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a one-sentence addition

To be fair, Aquirata is doing what newbies are expected to do: going to talk rather than revert warring.

Maybe the verbiage can have a salutatory affect. Add: "Insofar as an SPOV implies giving prominence to reliable, peer and editorially reviewed work, it accords with the broader aim of presenting neutral information" before "However, it has not been established that there is really a need for such a policy" (perhaps also add: "or change to the name of this policy").

This doesn't answer Aquirata's concern (sorry) but it more clearly explains why the supposed contradiction does not exist. Marskell 18:11, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

In other words, (a) policy is not clear enough (b) Although "Individual users thus enforce most policies and guidelines by editing pages, and discussing matters with each other " (my emphasis)... fobbing off newbies does not seem to be in the spirit of policy. --Iantresman 18:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Again, this very issue was the subject of a very disruptive campaign by User:-Lumière, aka User:Lumiere, aka User:Étincelle and conducted in exactly the same manner and resulted in a user conduct RFC where there was nearly zero credible community support for both the objection and the method.

So this issue was just settled and to have it resurrected in the same form by an editor who arrived here within the last month (during the time of the RFC) is a bit improbable. Not too mention that it's the height of hubris to think that you can dictate changes to the project's bedrock policy to editors who've been here years when you've been editing barely 4 weeks. FeloniousMonk 19:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

More side-stepping. --Iantresman 20:35, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not "side-stepping" to say that the earnest longterm contributors to the policy consider the objection to be DOA and the issue long-settled. You're free to disagree, but a one-sided discussion between two or three like-minded editors does not community consensus make. FeloniousMonk 20:51, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Look. Pseudoscience is plainly an ideological slur. Is creationism pseudoscience? Some would say yes. Others no. Somehow, creationism rises above this SPOV/NPOV fray because it is seems to have powerful and notable adherents, despite the sheer number of Darwinians who discard it out of hand.

Creationism and flat earth are prime examples of what exactly NPOV is. You point out the belief, and you point out the antitheses of the belief. You don't make assertions or content exclusions based on which one you like best, or even which one most people like best. MPOV is not NPOV.

An encyclopedia is the sum of all human knowledge. Even false knowledge, duly opposed by the presentation of contrary knowledge. And more to the point, vice versa.

SPOV changes over time. NPOV doesn't. We look back at the work of Galileo and realize he was right. But his opinion was not the SPOV of the time. It was, rather, the pseudoscience of the time. The question becomes: would the 1600s Misplaced Pages have included Galileo's solarcentric nonsense? - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 18:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The term 'pseudoscience' is well-defined and commonly used both by the public and the scientific community. That it is simply an ideological slur is neither plain nor widely accepted, except by those who's pet beliefs happen to be considered pseuoscience. In other words, it is itself a POV. FeloniousMonk 19:20, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there a comment on the suggested sentence? I agree with Felonious' general direction but I don't see the harm in clarifying wording or, more precisely, admitting that scientific empiricism is central to what we're doing (it is). "Pseudoscience" is not commonly "well-defined (and) used by the public." Not at all. But in the absence of a clear defence of empirical science versus pseudoscience we can't clearly write the Wiki. The above OK? Marskell 21:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how it improves the policy. Misplaced Pages's existing policies already require all content to be neutral, verifiable and from reliable sources. Couching it as "Insofar as SPOV implies giving prominence to reliable, peer and editorially reviewed work, it accords with the broader aim of presenting neutral information" merely muddles an already clear issue by introducing SPOV. This goes back to SV's point that the 3 foundational policies must be viewed together which is something the unseasoned often fail to do. FeloniousMonk 22:21, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

But SPOV has already been introduced. And Aquirata is using its mention as a wedge. An SPOV (or more precisely an SPOV methodology) either accords with NPOV and the other content policies or it does not. It does, so say so. Marskell 08:31, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

You do know that the scientific method didn't really exist as we know it in the 1600s, and as such there was no such thing as science or pseudoscience in Galileo's time? — Saxifrage ✎ 03:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The heart of the matter

Even though I'm not a psychologist, it is interesting to observe how a logical argument about the core of Misplaced Pages disintegrates into a political debate. Looking at the discussion, it is clear to me that no consensus exists with respect to this matter. What we have yet to see is a logical argument addressing the original issue at hand (i.e. contradiction within NPOV policies). As far as I'm concerned, all other questions that have been raised so far are secondary in nature, and so must take a back seat. If we cannot resolve an internal contradiction in logic, how are we to credibly write about anything at all? Granted, some of you may not care too much about my point of view, which is fine. A self-contradictory policy is also fine as long as we recognize the situation and take steps to correct it.

In summary, I look forward to your logical arguments directly addressing the original matter. Aquirata 20:13, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't expect many of the credible, longterm contributors here to engage in debating the matter again; your predecessor, Lumiere, used up any good will the community may have had on the topic of pseudoscience v. WP:NPOV. FeloniousMonk 20:47, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

And that pretty well sums it up! &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 22:29, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

In summary, the policy reflects existing practices of the community, and that currently means that science is given credibility and non-scientific-method things (sometimes called "pseudoscience") are not. Thus you can't use a claim of inconsistency in the policy to change the policy. Rather, you have to go out there and get nearly everyone to change current practices. Once that's done? Then the policy page gets updated. What so many people trying to change the page don't seem to understand is that WP:NPOV does not dictate policy, it documents the policy. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

• And the Misplaced Pages page on Policy and Guideliness, tells us to: "Respect other contributors .. a key to collaborating effectively .. and discussing matters with each other", and the Wiki page on Etiquette tells us: "Don't ignore questions" (my emphasis).
• Instead I see disrespectful, arogant and patronising replies, from editors who claim to be experienced with policy, who either ignore the basics, or (surely not!) don't know the basics. --Iantresman 08:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for logical arguments to prove that the following statements of fact, deductions and lines of reasoning are faulty in some way.

The term 'pseudoscience' must be replaced with a suitable alternative so it becomes NPOV

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is NPOV (statement)
• The term 'pseudoscience' is used for categorization and description of policies (statement)
• The term 'pseudoscience' is not NPOV (statement)
• This is a contradiction (deduction)
• Therefore, the term 'pseudoscience' must be replaced with a suitable alternative so it becomes NPOV (deduction)

The Pseudoscience section must be rewritten so it becomes NPOV

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is NPOV (statement)
• The Pseudoscience section within the policy is not NPOV (statement)
• This is a contradiction (deduction)
• Therefore, the Pseudoscience section must be rewritten so it becomes NPOV (deduction)

Unless somebody comes up with a reasoned reply expressly pointing out the fault in the above line of reasoning, we will have no choice but to conclude that Misplaced Pages NPOV policies are self-contradictory in nature. So I may add:

Misplaced Pages NPOV policies are self-contradictory

• The Misplaced Pages community is responsible for defining its own policies (statement)
• The Misplaced Pages community is capable of logical reasoning (statement)
• Self-contradiction in Misplaced Pages NPOV policies have been shown to exist (statement)
• No refutation of self-contradiction has been put forth by the Misplaced Pages community (statement)
• Therefore, Misplaced Pages NPOV policies are self-contradictory (deduction)

And even worse:

The Misplaced Pages community is practicing hypocrisy

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is NPOV (statement)
• Misplaced Pages's policies are representative of the Misplaced Pages community (statement)
• Misplaced Pages NPOV policies are self-contradictory (statement)
• The Misplaced Pages community represents something that it is not (deduction)
• Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have morals or virtues that one does not truly possess or practice (statement)
• Therefore, the Misplaced Pages community is practicing hypocrisy (deduction)

I see very serious issues here that have not been properly addressed. You can talk about secondary questions all you like, but that won't make the problems highlighted here go away. Aquirata 10:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The silence is deafening. Aquirata 11:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

It's already been explained to you why this has been settled, thus answering why no one is willing to go on this merry go round with you. Put simply, articles must follow NPOV. The policy itself doesn't need to so there is no contradiction. In fact the policy isn't NPOV because it promotes a view that NPOV is useful in writing an encyclopedia. Hence your argument is a nonstarter. - Taxman 13:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

You might see Set of all sets and related (sorry all, if this feeding a troll). The neutral point of view can't be neutral insofar as it advocates a neutral point of view. More formally, it cannot be a member of itself. Marskell 22:45, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see some logical arguments. :)

Taxman, I believe you are referring to my second statement, namely that The Pseudoscience section must be rewritten so it becomes NPOV. You accept the first two bullets but are arguing that the third bullet (This is a contradiction) is an incorrect deduction. In reality, you are taking issue with the first bullet, which is not explicit enough: it should state that Misplaced Pages articles must be NPOV but policies do not. Do I understand your opinion correctly?

Marskell, if I understand properly, you are also arguing that policies do not have to be NPOV. Correct?

Aquirata 02:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "the neutral point of view is a point of view." So for that matter is WP:V and WP:OR. Marskell 07:40, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Not this nonsense again... What you seek to change in the policy has been roundly rejected by the community, many, many times. Resurrecting it yet once again is becoming disruptive. Time to drop it. FeloniousMonk 02:17, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Aquirata, better articles are our goal, not better policies. Misplaced Pages exists to create and publish articles. Our policies exist only to expedite that process. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. KISS is an important underlying philosophy of Misplaced Pages. The WP:NPOV policy is clear to most editors, perfect wording is not important (or even possible.) FloNight 03:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

No response has been received for the first statement, but I have rephrased it more succinctly:

The category 'pseudoscience' must be replaced with a suitable alternative so it becomes NPOV

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is that articles must reflect NPOV (statement)
• Misplaced Pages doesn't have an official NPOV policy for categories (statement)
• However, categorization within Misplaced Pages is like chapter headings in a book of articles (statement)
• Therefore Misplaced Pages categorization must follow NPOV policies (deduction)
• The term 'pseudoscience' is not NPOV (statement)
• The term 'pseudoscience' is used for categorization (statement)
• This is a contradiction (deduction)
• Therefore, the category 'pseudoscience' must be replaced with a suitable alternative so it becomes NPOV (deduction)

The second statement was challenged by Taxman and Marskell, and has now been rewritten to reflect this:

Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy must be rewritten so it becomes NPOV

• Misplaced Pages's official policy is that articles must reflect NPOV (statement)
• Misplaced Pages doesn't have an official NPOV policy for its own policies (statement)
• However, the NPOV policy is a Misplaced Pages article (it looks like it, it feels like it, so it is) (statement)
• Therefore, Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy must be rewritten so it becomes NPOV (deduction)

Please point out any fault in the above reasoning. Aquirata 10:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll bite. Again - but this time I'll be less subtle ~:-O

The first item is not a contradiction. It adds deductions where none are needed (use in practice) and leaves out an important step: the consensus process. This is how things go in practice:

• Misplaced Pages NPOV policy is non-negotiable and applies to all encyclopedic content (i.e. article pages) (statement)
• The deciding factor is a consensus whether or not content (including categories and templates) conforms to the NPOV policy (statement)
• The term 'pseudoscience' is a point of view (statement)
• The term 'pseudoscience' is used for categorization (statement)
• The 'pseudoscience' category contains articles where a consensus has been reached that the assigned category is in accordance with the NPOV policy.

Options are:

• If you feel the policy does not reflect practical use, be bold, and where reverted, don't edit war but work towards consensus on the talk page. You tried, you failed. End of story. As you have seen, consensus regarding the text of the NPOV policy is based on years of practice and on the original version. In the unlikely case that editors (at some future point) reach a consensus to change "bedrock policies", they will once again discover that "non-negotiable" also means Jimbo and the Foundation have the last word here.
• If you see articles where you feel a consensus to remove the article from a category is in the cards, be bold, and where reverted, do not edit war but work towards consensus.

The second item: Misplaced Pages NPOV policy is non-negotiable and therefore not subject to the NPOV policy.

Only option:

• If you feel the policy does not reflect practical use, be bold, and where reverted, don't edit war but work towards consensus on the talk page. You tried, you failed. End of story. As you have seen, consensus regarding the text of the NPOV policy is based on years of practice and on the original version. In the unlikely case that editors (at some future point) reach a consensus to change "bedrock policies", they will once again discover that "non-negotiable" also means Jimbo and the Foundation have the last word here.

AvB ÷ talk 10:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would recommend no further replies. Aquirata is going to continue to ignore the more important points that people are making and focus on whatever can continue this argument that has already been shown to not be useful. - Taxman 11:26, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused now whether or not I can reply to AvB. :) Aquirata 14:39, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

The term 'pseudoscience'

AvB, Thanks for taking the time to spell it all out. Let me try to paraphrase your post to see whether I understand it correctly:

• The term 'pseudoscience' reflects a non-neutral point of view
• This term is used for categorization within Misplaced Pages
• This is not contradicting the NPOV policy because:

• No Misplaced Pages policy or guideline covers terminology for categories; and
• The assigned categories reflect consensus opinion in accordance with the NPOV policy

Is this correct?

As for the options:

• If you feel the policy does not reflect practical use, be bold, and where reverted, don't edit war but work towards consensus on the talk page. You tried, you failed.: I can't agree with this completely because I saw no consensus opinion regarding this issue at all. Certainly, there was no consensus to change the term, if that's what you meant.

• If you see articles where you feel a consensus to remove the article from a category is in the cards,: This is a secondary issue to me with regards to the term. The primary question is whether the term is appropriate for categorization. Categories must be appropriate (i.e. NPOV) before the question of assigning articles to them can be answered.

Aquirata 20:02, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV policy

Again, let me paraphrase:

• Misplaced Pages NPOV policy doesn't have to reflect neutral point of view itself because:

• The NPOV policy is non-negotiable therefore not subject to any policy or guideline

Is this correct?

• You tried, you failed: Again, no consensus was showing through apart from the lack of it to change things.

Please bear with me as this is leading to the basis for Misplaced Pages's existence. Aquirata 20:19, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Has what has been said at your user-conduct RFC meant nothing to you? This topic was settled long ago your constantly harping on it is becoming disruptive. FeloniousMonk 20:28, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, FeloniousMonk, those who oppose progress will try any means whatsoever to achieve their objective, including maiming adherents of opposing views. A cursory look at history will give you ample examples. Lack of counter-arguments to the point only underlines the validity of the original argument. Aquirata 12:22, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

"The NPOV policy does not have to reflect the neutral point of view itself" (more simply, NPOV is itself a point of a view). Yes. This has been stated in various ways to you at least eight times in the above discussion. Read here. Marskell 16:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The bottom line

With no direct response from AvB, I have to conclude that my assumptions above are correct. Essentially:

1. Misplaced Pages categories don't have to reflect a neutral point of view
2. Misplaced Pages NPOV policy doesn't have to be written from a neutral point of view

Moreover, it was asserted that this represents consensus opinion.

The first point is in direct contradiction to the WP:CG guideline, in which it is stated under 4.1 Category naming: "Categories follow the same general naming conventions as articles", and also: "make sure do not implicitly violate the neutral point of view policy". It also implicitly contradicts Misplaced Pages:Categorization_of_people: "Use the most neutral and/or generic name", and Misplaced Pages:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality: "Terminology must be neutral".

Furthermore, WP:NPOV states:

"This policy in a nutshell: All Misplaced Pages articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. This includes reader-facing templates, categories, and portals." Please note the word categories.

• Conclusion: The naming of the Pseudoscience category is in direct contradiction to WP:NPOV and several guidelines.

With respect to the Pseudoscience section within WP:NPOV, the current wording has essentially been in existence since the second draft. The Pseudoscience section has only been seriously debated in Archive_005. The non-neutral wording never came into question, although one attempt by User:FT2 was made to amend the text with four paragraphs, starting with Science doesn't know everything. This change was reverted and never debated.

The assertion that the neutrality of the Pseudoscience section of WP:NPOV has been debated at length doesn't appear to be supported in the archives.

Furthermore, the first line of the second draft reads as follows: This is an old page--the draft has been developed into an article, which can be edited here. Please note the word article with respect to WP:NPOV.

WP:NPOV also states: "This page is an official policy on the English Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus." This wording doesn't appear to imply that the policy is non-negotiable.

Since WP:NPOV is an editable article, and the policy applies to all articles, it follows that the policy itself must reflect the neutral point of view.

• Conclusion: WP:NPOV is self-contradictory due to the non-neutral wording of one section.

I hope that the two conclusions above have been shown now to be true to everyone's satisfaction. The only saving grace that the community has left is the objection: but this represents consensus opinion. However, the history of the Pseudoscience category and the lack of debate about the Pseudoscience section in WP:NPOV do not seem to bear this out. There may be resistance to change, but that doesn't equal consensus opinion. If it did, the Misplaced Pages community would be in serious trouble because it is enforcing naming conventions and wordings in direct contradiction to its own bedrock policies and guidelines. In which case resolving this issue belongs to a higher level within the Misplaced Pages hierarchy. Aquirata 10:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. Pseudoscience is not a term which "reflects a non-neutral point of view", it is a definition, a concise categorization per terminology, plain and simple. If something is presented as science but is not science, it is, ipso facto, pseudoscience. This is not non-neutral, this is accuracy. Your entire argument rests on the premise that pseudoscience is either non-neutral, or SPOV, or both. You are in error; you have built your house on sand. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 11:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua: The article on pseudoscience states:

• The term "pseudoscience" generally has negative connotations because it asserts that things so labeled are inaccurately or deceptively described as science. As such, those labeled as practicing or advocating a "pseudoscience" normally reject this classification.

Thus the term is not-neutral by definition. Aquirata 10:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't make it non-neutral by definition. Consider the term "criminal". It has negative connotations (not even just generally, but nearly always), but it is an objective and neutral fact that can be attributed to some people. It is a neutral term, and people may be described, categorised, and the like as "criminals" without running afoul of NPOV.

Similiarly, if something is presented as science but is not, then it is by definition pseudoscience. The negative connotation doesn't have anything to do with whether it's neutral or not. Arguably a different term that lacks the connotation could be used, but Misplaced Pages specifically forbids using neologisms, insisting that we use the real-world established terms that are accurate and commonly accepted. Using a term like "alternative knowledge" for what is called pseudoscience around the English-speaking world would be as unacceptable as using a term like "unlawful persons" for what is called a criminal.

(Note I make no special connection between "criminal" and "pseudoscience" by juxtaposing them—I just picked the clearest example of a factual but negatively-connoted word.) — Saxifrage ✎ 17:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The word criminal is just as much non-neutral: it is a term used by one (albeit large) part of society to describe the other part. Do criminals accept and use this term for themselves? Consider the following from Misplaced Pages:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality: "Terminology must be neutral. Derogatory terms such as "faggots" or "niggers" are not to be tolerated in a category name under any circumstances." These terms had been widely used at one point in time, but were later recognized as non-neutral, therefore usage changed. So just because the term criminal is being widely used today, it doesn't make the usage exemplary. The problem with the term pseudoscience is that it categorizes along the legitimate vs illegitimate line. This is similar to orthodox vs heretic.

The List of alternative, disputed, and speculative theories "includes examples of fields of endeavor that are considered to be fringe or pseudoscientific by the mainstream scientific community." This not only defines the term pseudoscience as SPOV (therefore not NPOV), but also provides a suitable, neutral term, that of "alternative theories." It is clear to me that the current situation is unsatisfactory, but I will take this discussion now to the Category talk:Pseudoscience page. The reason it was started here in the first place, however, is that the policy deals specifically with pseudoscientific topics, and the treatment is less than neutral. Aquirata 10:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll try to once again explain another faulty premise: the idea that the editing of policy-related pages is subject to the WP:NPOV policy. It is subject to consensus between Misplaced Pages editors and to intervention by Jimbo et al. Policy-related pages must be kept consistent with WP:NPOV, a policy whose text is negotiable—except for its core, which is given at the top of this article: "NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Misplaced Pages principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias". AvB ÷ talk 12:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I see only one aspect here that looks (but isn't) recursive: the definition of pseudoscience (which is technically a part of the policy) is currently relegated to the Pseudoscience article. The latter has to conform to WP:NPOV. Which is fine, and gets us to yet another false premise: the idea that Misplaced Pages editors are required or allowed to create the pseudoscience definition. We have to report it. AvB ÷ talk 12:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, so barring intervention (which I presume doesn't happen every day), "the editing of policy-related pages is subject to consensus between Misplaced Pages editors kept consistent with WP:NPOV." You are arguing in favour of modifying the pseudoscientific topics section within WP:NPOV, are you not? The text is clearly written from a scientific point of view, which is not consistent with WP:NPOV, and therefore, by your definition above, should be brought in line with it. Aquirata 10:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The top line

Ironically, what Aquirata sees as the bottom line is, in fact, a misunderstanding of the top line of this policy page. In Aquirata's defense I will say that the text (but not the use in practice) just conceivably could lead to exactly this type of misunderstanding, so I have slightly copyedited it, bringing a fundamental aspect present in the text markup (visible in the edit window) into plain view on the page as displayed to the reader. I would not have thought of this improvement without Aquirata's input. AvB ÷ talk 13:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for acknowledging this so openly. Although this particular change was not my original intention, I'm glad that all the talk about NPOV policy did bring about some movement. The value new editors can bring to the project by looking at old things in new ways and thus encouraging introspection with respect to policies, guidelines and the consensus process should not be underestimated. Aquirata 10:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Shakespeare stuff

I removed the following two sentences from the section "Characterizing opinions of people's work":

For instance, that Shakespeare is widely acknowledged as one of the greatest playwrights of the English language is a bit of knowledge that one should learn from an encyclopedia. However, in the interests of neutrality, one should also learn that a number of reputable scholars argue that there is a strong case to make that the author of much of the work still attributed to Shakespeare was his contemporary Christopher Marlowe.

The latter statement is simply false. No reputable scholars argue that there is such a case to be made; a tiny number of unreputable scholars believe it. There should be an example like this, but this is not it. NPOV does not mean, as Jimbo has stated many times, including information believed by a tiny and marginal minority, and the policy page should not make it seem like it does. Chick Bowen 03:39, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've replaced it with a new example that is closer to what is meant by that section of the policy, I think. Chick Bowen 04:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Reverting, please find talk page consensus *first* (that's not something that usually happens in 24 minutes between two of your own comments on a talk page).

Here's your version:

Characterizing opinions of people's work

A special case is the expression of aesthetic opinions. Misplaced Pages articles about art, artists, and other creative topics (e.g., musicians, actors, books, etc.) have tended toward the effusive. This is out of place in an encyclopedia. We might not be able to agree that so-and-so is the greatest guitar player in history, but it may be important to describe how some artist or some work has been received by the general public or by prominent experts. Providing an overview of the common interpretations of a creative work, preferably with citations or references to notable individuals holding that interpretation, is appropriate. For example, William Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus has been considered one of his most interesting plays by some readers, a relative failure by others, and by a few to have been written by someone else; a proper article includes the history of these interpretations without passing judgment on them. Note that determining how some artist or work has been received publicly or critically might require research, but once determined, a clear statement of that reception is far more useful and in keeping with the spirit of Misplaced Pages than a mere statement of opinion.

1. "Shakespeare's detached, often ironic perspective upon compelling art in this popular revenge tragedy makes charging him with naively imitating the works of Roman masters extremely difficult" (Maurice Hunt, "Compelling Art in Titus Andronicus" , 214).
2. Shakespeare editor G. B. Harrison called the play "Shakespeare's worst" in his own edition of it (Titus Andronicus ).
3. Samuel Johnson himself said, "All the editors and critics agree with Mr. Theobald in supposing this play spurious. I see no reason for differing from them. . ." (see online source).

A remark: this version doesn't contain any external references to support its Shakespeare example by factual evidence, so the example is not nearly as good as the one you deleted. It doesn't show editors how to go about such things, but promotes weasel wording like "has been considered" without evidence. --Francis Schonken 05:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I really don't care what the actual example is; but it should not be a statement that, as I said, is false. I'm disappointed that you reverted it rather than improving it. Chick Bowen 02:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

If you are the one who thinks it needs changing, the onus is on you to garner support on this here talk page for a specific wording to change it to. Unlike in article pages, significant changes are normally reverted unless they've undergone debate and gotten significant approval on the Talk page first. It's nothing personal, it's just that it's a policy page and stability and consensus is very important, and there's no "needing to expand the encyclopedia" motive to counter those two important factors on a policy page. — Saxifrage ✎ 03:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Part of the problem here is that, of course, very little decent Shakespeare scholarship is available online except at subscription sources. Here are references for what I've included in my example, which could easily be cited using <ref>: good play: "Shakespeare's detached, often ironic perspective upon compelling art in this popular revenge tragedy makes charging him with naively imitating the works of Roman masters extremely difficult" (Maurice Hunt, "Compelling Art in Titus Andronicus" , 214); bad play: the famous line that Titus is "Shakespeare's worst play" is from G.B. Harrison's introduction to his edition (Titus Andronicus ); not by Shakespeare: Samuel Johnson himself said, "All the editors and critics agree with Mr. Theobald in supposing this play spurious. I see no reason for differing from them. . .", and that is online here. I hope that this is sufficient. Incidentally, since I am not editing policy but an example illustrating policy I didn't think, and still don't, that it should be such a big deal. Chick Bowen 03:39, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

All right, I've now put the references into my version above; I'd welcome any comments. Chick Bowen 04:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Though it's substantially longer, in principle I approve of the change. Let's see what others think. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:11, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Since I got no objections to this version, I went ahead and put it in. Please do edit it and improve, but I would ask that if anyone objects to it altogether, just take it out, and we won't have an example for that section, or replace it with an entirely new one. The old example was a serious liability, since it put forward a highly controversial (and discredited) opinion as if it were mainstream. Thanks. Chick Bowen 23:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops, sorry, should have spelled it out: I still object like I did before. Too long, isn't as clear as the previous version (I mean in the sense of not making clear how Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy is intended), and confuses while a bit wishy-washy about the "truth seekers" thing (I mean, compare Misplaced Pages:verifiability#Verifiability, not truth).

Chick Bowen's only argument has been thus far "I know the truth and the truth is that there is no reputable scholar that ever argued that there is a strong case to make that the author of much of the work still attributed to Shakespeare was his contemporary Christopher Marlowe."

Sorry, seems like you're missing the point of the NPOV policy, and want to mold it to something else. Note that the NPOV policy page is not an article about Shakespeare, but err, ehm, ... a page on the NPOV policy. Don't start to change it before you're sure to understand. --Francis Schonken 08:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

But Francis, the example as it stands is not NPOV--it hinges on the assumption that John Baker is a reputable scholar, while he is in fact an enthusiastic amateur. I have tweaked it. Once again, I would invite you to just take it out altogether--I don't think an example is needed. Chick Bowen 15:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I tried, Will, I tried. Apparently Larry Sanger was right after all. Chick Bowen 03:24, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Tacitus quote

Francis removed the Tacitus quote, stating "Augustus/Tiberius seems quite out of place here".

inde consilium mihi pauca de Augusto et extrema tradere, mox Tiberii principatum et cetera, sine ira et studio, quorum causas procul habeo.		Hence my purpose is to relate a few facts about Augustus – more particularly his last acts, then the reign of Tiberius, and all which follows, without either bitterness or partiality, from any motives to which I am far removed.
Tacitus, Annals I, 1 – Church/Brodribb translation

I originally added this as a parallel to the quote in WP:V. This is where the famous "sine ira et studio" is found - people are acknowledging the "neutral point of view" since antiquity. See Gaius_Cornelius_Tacitus#Approach_to_history for more context.

OK, if this is removed then this either needs elaboration or shouldn't be here at all. Dr Zak 00:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Zak,

• The quote (but replacing the Augustus/Tiberius part with an ellipsis) is contained in Tacitus#Approach to history.
• Although I was the one to have placed both that quote in the Tacitus article, and the Tacitus quote in the WP:V policy page, and I'm by all means a fan of Tacitus quotes, here are some considerations:
  • Basicly, wikipedia's official policies are made by 21st century people, let's not bend them too much towards a single person who lived in Rome 19 centuries ago. Let's be sparse with Latin quotes (this isn't an Asterix album, for instance).
  • Note that the WP:V#A thought: Tacitus' recommendation quote would be as usable for WP:NPOV as WP:V, in fact it is so powerful that it sums up the three core Misplaced Pages content policies (WP:V, WP:NPOV and WP:NOR). From that angle we don't need a different quote in WP:NPOV than the one that is already in WP:V.
  • If a bit acquainted with Tacitean studies, it's no secret that the "sine ira et studio" quote is much more problematic than the "consensum auctorum" quote (that's the WP:V quote). Tacitus could be very vitriolic, so his "sine ira" has been criticised at large in literature. Personally, I'd have no problem that wikipedia had the same sharpness of Tacitus sometimes (would sort out wikipedia:weasel terms with a blow), but that's a bit different from the WP:NPOV policy, which I sport even more for wikipedia. The difference is that Tacitus is a single author, as a manner of speach his own judge on how much anger he'd show in his writings. Misplaced Pages is a community project: what is without anger (sine ira) for one person, can be perceived as being very agressive by another person. That's where the NPOV policy kicks in: how do we work together on a single project, how do we sort out that one person's "objectivity" can be perceived as a positive bias by another person. IMHO, that's the core of the NPOV policy, the core of what makes wikipedia tick. the "sine ira et studio" quote is maybe not the best to make that clear.

Anyway, if it would be included in the NPOV policy (which all in all I'd support), I'd put it here with the Augustus/Tiberius part taken out (so the format as it is in the Tacitus article currently). --Francis Schonken 07:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

NPOV's relationship to reliable sources

The policy says that NPOV is a viewpoint. This means that the objective is NOT to make an article neutral sounding as if nobody knows what the truth is about any subject. It is a viewpoint because NPOV only comes into play when dealing with the reliable sources and the data given us about the subject at hand by them. This means that if you find 10 reliable (verifiable) sources all saying a positive thing about the subject, that means that the resulting "Neutral Point of View" is positive. It does not mean we should take that positive and neutralize it so that anyone who comes along will feel that it is neutral (meaning neither positive nor negative). The "N" in NPOV only means that we must rely accurately on what the reliable sources give us. Saxifrage and Schonken apparently have not understood this up until now. The "Neutral" in NPOV means to heed fairly what the reliable sources say. If all reliable sources say something negative then NPOV results in negative. If reliable sources are split and oppose each other, then the NPOV comes out neutral. My edit emphasized this because many people misunderstand it and it needs to be made clear. It is the cause of lots of problems on WP. NPOV should ultimately be renamed because it was a mistake to use the "N" and is throwing everyone off by making people falsely think the resulting articles should always sound neutral no matter what the reliable sources contain. This is a disaster. --Diligens 13:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You're mistaking the viewpoint part for something it's not. The neutral one is the point of view that Misplaced Pages adopts in dealing with subjects. It's not the viewpoint that must be expressed by every line of every article. However, never may Misplaced Pages "speak" as if it held a positive or negative POV on something, even if all sources agree. That's not neutral. Misplaced Pages presents the opinions and points of view of the world and should have none itself (aka, a neutral one).

Unrelatedly, I don't have any problem with the principle of making it clear that NPOV must be applied alongside Verifiability. This would be the wrong reason to do so, however. — Saxifrage ✎ 15:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This reveals you need to read again what I wrote. You don't understand NPOV like so many other people. The rule currently says that NPOV is a viewpoint, but you are saying it is not. Why? You also state here that I am mistaking viewpoint for something it is not, but then you fail to say what viewpoint is. The rules currently also say that NPOV must be interpreted inseparably with the rules on verifiablility and reliability, but you are disassociating that dependency on reliable source data. The very fact that you do this shows you don't understand it, and is precisely why my edit was made - to emphasize that dependency. For instance, if we have 50 reliable sources that say that Jack Smith committed murder. The WP article doesn't remain neutral, it flatly states that he committed murder. WP doesn't just keep pointing fingers in every sentence saying "Source such-and-such claims such-and-such". No encyclopedia talks like that. You need to reread what I wrote above and read this again. Your view of NPOV is a common mistake. NPOV can be positive, neutral or negative depending upon the reliable source data. That is NPOV. --Diligens 16:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying NPOV isn't a viewpoint, I'm saying it's not a viewpoint in the sense you're using it. NPOV is a point of view, a philosophy, a perspective, a position, on how to write an encyclopedia. It governs what Misplaced Pages does and how it relates to the subjects it covers. This philosophy must be reflected in how subjects are written about in articles. It means that Misplaced Pages articles must be dispassionate and not take sides. It does not mean that "it is a viewpoint that is applied when there's disagreement", which is what you seem to be saying. It is a viewpoint that Misplaced Pages always expresses by doing what it does. When there is a conflict between sources, this is obviously more evident, but it is there even when there is no conflict.

For opinions on facts, I will agree with you that when all sources agree, Misplaced Pages can just say "such and such is true" or write as if it is so. I disagreed as soon as you used the word "positive", though. If all sources are absolutely glowing and say the subject of the article is wonderful and amazing, and no sources disagree, Misplaced Pages can't adopt that Positive Point of View—it must remain neutral and not promote a value judgement. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

If there is an issue where no-one disagrees, why would it ever come under an NPOV conflict anyway? I think most of your concerns are already addressed by the undue weight section. Certainly, NPOV and verifiability go hand in hand, but I fail to see what the issue under contention by you is. Are you attempting to move the definition of NPOV closer to that of Scientific point of view, or are you trying to make it so that undisputed articles can speak with surity? (they already can) Until someone disagrees, there is no conflict, and in cases where they do disagree, the current policy makes sense already. I did think some mention of verifiability in the opening paragraph was sensible, but I'm unsure now, since it seems like you are trying to distort the definition somehow... what's the objective of the proposed change here? --tjstrf 16:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to agree with you, Tjstrf, but unfortunately here on WP argument over NPOV flare up even if no one in the real world disagrees. Some editors will still call for "according to"s etc. Str1977 16:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hopefully those authors are merely attempting to err on the side of caution. Also, saying "according to n" is a good thing, as it allows you to add more references and improve the quality of the article that way. --tjstrf 17:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Tjstrf, some are not. Str1977 17:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we might be thinking of two different things here... could you direct me to a case of what you are talking about? --tjstrf 17:55, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's put it this way... ask yourself why, for example, does the featured article on Abraham Lincoln (considered one of the ideal and top notch articles of Misplaced Pages) contain the plain statement that John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln? Shouldn't it have said, "allegedly"??? Shouldn't every sentence on Misplaced Pages therefore be prefaced by "allegedly" in order to remain "neutral"?? You can see the absurdity of it. NPOV is not abstract neutrality in wording - it is concrete neutrality is direct relation to representing the truth of the data contained in all reliable sources together for a particular point of an article. This is what my edit accomplishes by detailing this dependency and relationship. --Diligens 17:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Because no scholarly books have been published which feature the claim that Booth didn't assassinate Lincoln but instead some other guy did it? If such a book were published, then it should be mentioned briefly in the article. --tjstrf 17:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This is exactly my point with the my edit. Neutral would say it is "alleged" that Booth assissinated Lincoln. But it doesn't. It positively claims it based upon reliable source. That is my whole point. --Diligens 14:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

In practice it's not a problem, and few people seem to read the NPOV policy as you have. And, as many have pointed out at other times, we're here to make a better encyclopedia, not better policies. — Saxifrage ✎ 17:16, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Diligens wrote: "Your view of NPOV is a common mistake. NPOV can be positive, neutral or negative depending upon the reliable source data. That is NPOV." - Diligens, could you please explain how you arrived at your definition of the NPOV c.q. your interpretation of WP:NPOV? I think it would be illuminating to learn if you are basing this on your interpretation of the current policy language, or perhaps on your observations of how things are done in practice. Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 23:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Allow me to reiterate and maybe say it differently for you. The rules say that NPOV cannot be interpreted inseparably from the necessity of having verified/reliable sources to support an article. This means that NPOV is dependent upon the need to first have data from reliable sources. It is a matter of pure logic, but really the rule already mentions that NPOV is dependent on what reliable sources say. If a reliable source says something is, the article simply says it is a fact. I cannot be otherwise. If anyone disagrees with this, try going to the Abraham Lincoln articel and edit it so that it says that it is "alleged" that Booth assassinated Lincoln. You won't success because NPOV there along with reliable sources results in a positive - that Booth DID assassinate Lincoln. Let someone argue with this, otherwise I am making my edit to this policy to emphasize what so many people get wrong. --Diligens 14:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I think I've figured out what the problem here is: You are confusing verifiability of support with verifiability of truth. To be neutral, we must include any position that is verifiabily held by at least a significant minority. We do not, however, require that their opinions be verifiably true. In other words, we say Booth assassinated Lincoln, and it is neutral. Not because it's true, but because no one opposes us. If that's not what you are talking about, then you're apparently just ranting about something that is already covered: under the verifiability criteria, content cannot be included, POV or not, if it is verifiable. In other words, the NPOV guideline is subordinate to verifiability already. --tjstrf 04:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Fairness and sympathy

Near the top we have this summation: "It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject."

Later: "If we're going to characterize disputes fairly, we should present competing views with a consistently positive, sympathetic tone...Let's present all significant, competing views sympathetically."

I realize there is a difference between having having a sympathetic tone (not deriding something) and being sympathetic to (actually being partisan) and I don't think we have a flat contradiction here. However, the opposed uses of sympathy is a weakness I think. Perhaps drop sympathy in the last. Marskell 18:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Prometheuspan 00:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• Somedays its easy to just find a random point to make the interjections that have been brewing

in the back of ones brain.

• 1There are two primary properties of "neutral." The first is that the information presented is presented factually. The second is that the information is being presented without an emotional

spin or bias. In other words; propaganda tools are disallowed.

• 2The only way to accomplish neutrality in practice concerning different points of view on a controversial subject is to present equally all of the points of view involved. That is actually not limited to false dillema dualities, there are probably at least 5 or 6 seperate politics voices in America, for instance, and at least a hundred different voices for "Christianity" for instance as the different denominations.

• 3When a belief or a propaganda tool is being discussed, neutrality reporting it requires it to be properly atributed to the group which specifically is a proponent of that view or issue in that light. In other words, the "Fact" xy y Z "Is that group xyz believes in, or supports position xyz" etc.

• 4The best overall method to determine as a judge if neutrality is present is that true neutrality always eres on the side of the favorable light for the position it is presenting.

Thats "sympathetic" only in that it is exclusive specifically of "negative." To put it a very different way, neutrality forbids straw man arguments.

• 5points 2,3,4 are what really makes writing neutrally about charged subjects very difficult.

Theres a big problem in reconciling reporting on a view or position that a person or group takes that is negative. The biggest meltdown point is determining the difference between interjecting ones own spin, and reporting some body elses spin as they spun it, not as you might spin it.

• 6The next biggest question or problem is whether or not a person is capable of making the cognitive leap to neutral thinking. Some people aren't. They can write neutrally, but its an internal dialogue process of rant and translate. The result is really just negative axioms translated in neutral language, and extremely sly ad hominems and attacks. The solution to this problem is to discuss, teach, and train the concept of neutral thinking, and at least enough conversational logic to support that process.

• 7. The next biggest problem is due weight. If you count honestly the voices in American politics, theres the neo cons, the paleo cons, the Christians, the Democrats, the Liberal Democrats, The Republicrats, the Greens, and the True Liberals. How much time and energy should each of those groups get on a given political subject? Some might cut that pie into equal portions. Personally, I think thats fair in most cases. But the truth is that true fairness on that pie slicing is a very complicated game based on how those voices are actually involved or were involved in that conversation. Was an effort made to cover that issue? By that voice? Or

is trying to involve that group on that isue more like piecing together a brand new position paper and original research? Should the Greens get only 1 percent of the air time, as i am sure the Republicans and Democrats would like? (Or, better yet, just freeze all of american politics into the tyranny of a duality false dillema.)

Prometheuspan 00:08, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Academic vs. religious POV

There is currently a dipute on Talk:Muhammad as to how Muhammad should be described in the introductory sentence. The academic view is that he is the founder of Islam; the Muslim religious view is that he is the final prophet of God, but not the founder of Islam because Islam is eternal. So, some editors advocate that only the academic view must be presented in the introductory sentence, although the Muslim view must be given full credit elsewhere in the article, including the intro. Other editors argue that both academic and Muslim views must be presented in the first sentence, or alternatively, the first sentence must be formulated in a neutral fashion without giving advantage to either view. The root of the dispute, it seems, lies in the way WP:NPOV is presented now; namely, that the policy deals mainly with the conflicting academic POVs, but not with views stemming from two entirely different discourses. I'll be glad to hear input on that issue. Pecher 09:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at how Jesus does it - a stable compromise that is the result of LOTS of arguing. My view is this: Muhammed is important largely becuase so many people consider him their ultimate prophet. To say this (which is not the same thing as asaying he IS God's ultimate prophet) does not violate NPOV, and I would lead the article with this. I would then have a new paragraph laying out major cholarly (secular) views of Muhammed, and then paragraphs with any remaining important views (i.e. beyond those of Muslims and scholars of Muhammed or Islam). Just my opinion. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Question/proposal re what exactly is and is not negotiable about the three content-guiding policies

(moved from here)

Checking the three content-guiding policy pages, I realized that some of what I've said above is not in line with the text. Yet I feel that what I'm saying is entirely consistent with Misplaced Pages practice: we can change these policies using the consensus process, but we cannot change the three "principles" themselves. These three policies have changed a lot over time, demonstrating that the consensus process does "supersede" these policies. Jimbo has declared the NPOV principle non-negotiable, but not the policy text. He summarized the basic points of NOR. Both the Verifiability and NOR policies have been declared non-negotiable by editors, apparently based on consensus. In short, Aquirata has a point when arguing that policies being both subject to the consensus process and non-negotiable constitute a contradictio in terminis. So I think there is some repair work that needs to be done here. Would it be feasible to update the policy language to reflect that Misplaced Pages has three non-negotiable principles that are explained on their respective policy pages (which are negotiable)?

More concretely, this would mean some indiviidual changes and one that would apply to all three policies, along the following lines: "The three policies are also non-negotiable and cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus." would become: "The three content-guiding policies are based on non-negotiable principles that cannot be superseded by any other guidelines or by editors' consensus. These policies override all other policies and guidelines, which must be kept consistent with them."

Or am I missing something here? AvB ÷ talk 14:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The policy is non-negotiable, it's application and explanation is often subject to debate. Perhaps you can point where consensus has actually superseded the three. Intensitive and explanatory changes have been made, undone, and re-tried but the bedrock has been the same (of course I haven't been here five years). "All other policies must be kept consistent with them" is a fair enough addition, but there's no contradiction in terms that I see. Marskell 15:09, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I certainly do not see a contradiction myself. I'm arguing Aqui had a point there, the point being that it looks like a contradiction. Consensus superseding the policy text (what you're calling "application and explanation") is evident in spades - simply call up the relevant diffs or compare the oldest and newest versions available in the history. The principles, what you call "the policy", have never been superseded as far as I can see. In other words, I think you're saying the same thing as I am. I'm trying to make it explicit by labeling which aspects are negotiable and which are non-negotiable. What exactly is non-negotiable here? Where are the non-negotiable issues (the bedrock) summarized/stated/explained/discussed? Can a new editor see the difference between policy and policy text? Why do we get all these newbies claiming that there's a contradiction, tying up other editors in endless discussions and explanations, which newbies then don't accept because they haven't been around for long enough to understand how things are done, and others don't accept because they're trying some wikilawyering in order to change what is non-negotiable? AvB ÷ talk 19:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that AvB is pointing out a contradiction, rather that the distinction between the policy text and the policy could be stated explicitly instead of implicitly (as it is now). That they are distinct both conceptually and practically is long established, I believe, so I don't see a problem with spelling it out. It might help avoid a lot of the confusion that has motivated inexperienced editors to try to rewrite the policy pages in the past. — Saxifrage ✎ 15:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Spelling it out would not change practice but at least in theory might prevent some of those rewrite attempts and time lost explaining the distinction again and again.

My solution may or may not be a practical one though. I do like the disctinction between "principle" and "policy" as already implemented, at least halfway, in WP:NPOV. But expanding the use of these terms may not be easy or even possible. There may well be too many (important) instances of "the NPOV policy is non-negotiable" both internally (policies, ArbCom cases, talk pages, etc) and externally (e.g. lawsuits, media info) and pretty much carved in granite by now. It may also depend on whether Jimbo has ever said that the policy is non-negotiable or simply talked about NPOV, or about the NPOV principle. AvB ÷ talk 19:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem is there is so much energy expended around this issue that is not helping move the project forward. It's just a few people that try to interpret everything so literally instead of just going and working on articles. Unless there can be demonstrated a serious problem with the policies and how they are used, I propose we all get back to our regularly scheduled programming of working on articles. - Taxman 18:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's certainly a solution regarding editors that end up here on this talk page but won't accept the answers (including a number of editors who do understand but try to use the perceived contradiction to fool people into a consensus that would violate the principles if implemented). But it's possible that for every one of them a hundred others end up disrupting Misplaced Pages where spelling things out might have been helpful. I'm sure it's a problem, but I have no idea if it's worth the trouble and have to defer to the opinion of more experienced editors here. AvB ÷ talk 19:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I've just found out what some of you already know: my proposal does not change longstanding policy language. Jimbo's quote was inserted in in 2003, but the text I'm more or less disputing is a relatively recent addition to these three policies. In fact it hasn't even been added to one of them. As far as I can see without investing too much of my time, it went through with very little opposition. This probably means that its spirit was in line with consensus and its text expected to work. I think its intention is OK, but we now have some new information indicating that the text is problematic. We have seen that it may lead to confusion between policy (spirit) and policy (text). This confusion has now been used in an attempt to change bedrock policy principles. In the light of this experience, seeing that the text leads to misunderstandings and lots of time going to waste on explanations here (and I assume also to more newbie edit warring in article space), I'll come up with a new proposal.

When working on a replacement text I realized that the current text has the advantage of declaring the three policies completely non-negotiable when it comes to editing in article space, while they are partly ("textually") negotiable in project space. We don't want to lose that distinction. Nothing is as easy as it seems at first sight. I reached consensus with myself on a compromise. AvB ÷ talk 13:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to spell out non-negotiable

(See rationale in previous talk page section)

I propose that we change paragraph #2 of the lead section to:

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view is one of Misplaced Pages's three content-guiding policy pages. The other two are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one other, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace (article space), taking precedence over any other guidelines as well as over editors' consensus.

These policies are non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of each policy's principles.

Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 13:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd support this. We could also add something like "Anyone wishing to make a substantive change to a policy may do so through our formal procedure for proposing new policies, see Category:Misplaced Pages proposals." or something like this. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Aye, this looks good. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Support. --Iantresman 18:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Support, and the same should be done to the other two policies. It should, however, be spelled out that it is the principle which is non-negotiable, not the wording itself. --tjstrf 18:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would just say, then "The principles expressed by these policies..." I would not add "not the wording itself" because I think that is already conveyed by "may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of each policy's principles" unless you think this can be worded more clearly. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think a consensus for the proposed change is in the cards. I agree that this does not necessarily have to be the last change towards spelling out what is non-negotiable. I still think the word non-negotiable should ultimately disappear from the definition. However, as you may have seen, there's probably wide support for the notion that the NPOV policy text presents more non-negotiable principles than just the NPOV principle. Explicitly removing the word non-negotiable from the policy text and principles and attaching it to the policy principles alone at this point (i.e. without clarifying which parts of the policy (text) are currently seen as principles, de facto sacrosanct and already canonized in the hearts of true believers) will have the same effect as declaring open season on e.g. the (perceived) special treatment for science vs. pseudoscience. Which, believe me, is not in the cards.

Misplaced Pages policies develop and become more elaborate over time following practice. They rarely, if ever, are pruned. It certainly looks like there is wide support for the concept that changes (read: explanations and additions) to policies, or at least the principles behind those changes, are set in stone once they have stood the test of time - say a couple of months.

Probably superfluously: I think the word non-negotiable is an excellent choice to emphasize to the world at large that wikipedia describes its subjects from a (the) neutral point of view. However, it seems to me that it's an extremely poor choice of words to emphasize to editors that the concepts or principles detailed on these three policy pages have been sort of canonized. In fact I don't believe they are. I do believe that if a consensus arises (which is, to be sure, extremely unlikely) to change or scrap the (perceived) special position of information gathered using the scientific method, it can and will happen. These things do not need to be protected by the words "non-negotiable" (which, I admit, is a nice soundbite to throw at newbies). All you need is consensus ()to paraphrase some notable Liverpudlians). (Yes, I know, this paragraph rambles quite a bit but it's just reiterating some snapshots of my current thinking on the matter, i.e. rather unimportant.) AvB ÷ talk 08:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I've implemented a (hopefully improved) version of this proposal. AvB ÷ talk 05:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm moving the latest version of this proposal here for further discussion since it's being disputed by Francis and was reverted as not having reached consensus (see diff of my edits):

Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view is one of Misplaced Pages's three content-guiding policy pages. The other two are Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No original research. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in article space, taking precedence over any other guidelines as well as over editors' consensus. Because the three policies are complementary, they should not be interpreted in isolation from one other, and editors should therefore try to familiarize themselves with all three. The three policies are also non-negotiable and their policy pages may only be edited to better reflect practical explanation and application of these principles.

Francis is also disputing this edit, see below . AvB ÷ talk 12:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal to clarify POV vs NPOV

There are some who incorrectly consider a "point of view" to be (a) bad (b) the opposite of "Neutral point of view". I wonder whether it worth modifying the first sentence to clarify this:

NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Misplaced Pages writing style in which various points of views are written fairly and without bias (ie. in a neutral style, as described below).

--Iantresman 18:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You are correct that a POV in and of itself is not bad - the point is to frame the POV as such and provide the context, and provide other points of view. BUT this is not just a matter of writing style. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:08, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

How about the following which excludes the "writing style", and betters the self-referential definition in the first sentence (NPOV .. must be written from a NPOV..):

NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is fundamental to Misplaced Pages, in which various points of views are written fairly and without bias (ie. in a neutral style, as described below).

--Iantresman 21:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that "written" is the wrong word, and it also fails to make the very necessary distinction between the FoxNews meaning of "fair and unbiased" and Misplaced Pages's meaning. Making it explicit that "fair and unbiased" includes not giving undue weight, maybe "are reported fairly, without bias or undue weight" would be more accurate. — Saxifrage ✎ 21:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

All the suggestion does is remove the word "principle." Why do you want it removed? No object noun means less clarity.

Here's a suggestion: "NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Misplaced Pages principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias." That is, the page as it stands. Why are we wasting time with this? Marskell 22:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No objection. See, here's an object lesson in why I should compare the before-and-after text before commenting on a proposal... — Saxifrage ✎ 22:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I had wondered why you responded as if it were new ;). It's just the lead section as it stands, but less clear. Marskell 22:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

We're "wasting time on this" because you're a polite and helpful editor, who has to deal with other editors who are less sure than yourself. To answer your question, the original sentence is (a) self-referential: "NPOV .. states that all articles must be written from a NPOV" (b) It doesn't clarify the misunderstanding that NPOV is a type of POV, rather than the opposite. --Iantresman 22:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

(a) "Self-referential". Actually a tautology as you present it (have had me fill of those on this page, which I don't want to pretend is perfect). This is fair criticism if the clause "representing views fairly and without bias" were not there. But it is there, unpacking the self-reference, and there isn't a real problem.

(b) "It doesn't clarify the misunderstanding that NPOV is a type of POV". But the second section after the history (the one actually titled "the neutral point of view") does: "as the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints." Marskell 22:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

(a) The tautology may ultimately unravel, but why have it in the first place? (b) And yes, NPOV and POV is explained further on. Why make it difficult for readers? There is NO disadvantage in improving a poorly-worded first sentence, and everything to gain. --Iantresman 23:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a tautology because the two terms have different referents. The first NPOV refers to the NPOV policy, while the second NPOV refers to the stand-alone concept of neutral point-of-view. We could rename it the Monkey policy, and it would then read, "Monkey... states that all articles must be written from a NPOV". Yes, that's arguably a bit unclear, but there's no logical problem. — Saxifrage ✎ 04:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Italic textInfallibility - a meta-question re non-negotiable

I would like to know whether a consensus between editors can ever carve entire policies (text and/or principles) in stone, in effect forbidding ANY later consensus changes that are more than explanatory or additional. Prohibiting later consensus is not allowed in article space. But by what authority (other than that of Jimbo et al.) can it be done to policies in project space? And if the consensus process has the "authority" to declare elements of policy sacrosanct, shouldn't it at least make explicit which elements are so canonized? (Instead of some wholesale elevation of three entire policies, or at least the principles presented by the language at that point.) And if wholesale canonization is allowed, shouldn't at least the timestamp and the version be mentioned in the canonizing edit? If there is no time-stamp, doesn't the language carve in stone all subsequent changes to these three policies as soon as they have reached consensus (a bizarre consequence of recursion without base case)?

Please note that this is not an attempt to change or delete widely accepted Misplaced Pages principles. See also this discussion. I think that such principles, if they need more protection than the consensus process has to offer, have to be identified and discusssed and some protection has to be implemented before we revert or rewrite "these policies are (also) non-negotiable". I'm simply trying to determine whether a consensus that inserts this or similar language has the "authority" to do so. It looks too much like Papal infallibility to me. Which is not something to be attempted without divine guidance.

(I'll probably post an adapted version of the question to the mailing list.)

AvB ÷ talk 09:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You raise a good point. However, the difference between this and Papal infallibility is that provided a rule cannot reflexively protect itself, then the rule about non-negotiability is a negotiable one. So I guess that you would first need a consensus that the rules were no longer non-negotiable, and then a consensus to change the NPOV policy. Alternately, this may fall under the "Jimbo Wales is a super-majority" clause. --tjstrf 09:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, this is more or less one of the views I'd like to test.AvB ÷ talk 10:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a note that Jimbo is referring to the neutral point of view principle, not the NPOV policy, when stating that "NPOV is non-negotiable". The 2006 quote at the top of the article is in the context of leeway for different language wikis. FWIW, the German language Misplaced Pages recognizes four "immutable fundamental principles", referring to them as such at the top of its NPOV policy page (see Misplaced Pages:Five_pillars). NPOV is one of them. Nowhere does it say that policies are immutable, as far as I know. AvB ÷ talk 10:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It's my understanding that consensus can't "canonise" anything. In practice, some consensus-derived policy has so much momentum that it seems effectively canonised, but these things are still, theoretically, able to be overturned given a sufficiently large sea-change in the community's position on the policy in question. — Saxifrage ✎ 16:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Are there other experienced Wikipedians around who could give their opinion on consensus declaring policies "non-negotiable"? I guess my main point is that this precludes future consensus and goes against well-established Misplaced Pages practice. AvB ÷ talk 18:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you actually suggesting that we at some point might decide against writing in NPOV as policy, or are you just trying to start a dispute over the wording? I wasn't here at the beginning so I'm not sure, but I don't think NPOV is a consensus-derived policy in the first place, rather being a fundamental one. --tjstrf 20:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Summary for you: NPOV as a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages is absolute and non-negotiable as detailed at the top of the article. The NPOV policy describes the set of practices that developed over the years while Misplaced Pages was growing. The policy is not entirely community-generated since its core was developed, as far as I've been able to discern, by Larry Sanger based on views he shared with Jimmy Wales. A couple of months ago someone stuck in new language to the effect of "these three policies are also non-negotiable". I am asking experienced editors whether this use of the term non-negotiable goes against practice, setting in stone things that can never be set in stone. If the responses show sufficient support, I will post - for discussion - an adapted version of the proposal I formulated above. For the rest please read the above, it's quite detailed actually. AvB ÷ talk 22:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I did read the above. To me it makes perfect sense that the non-negotiability would apply to the core idea, not the precise wording, but I can see how someone might become confused. So I guess you do have a point. --tjstrf 23:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I've updated the three articles, limiting "non-negotiable" to the "fundamental principles" of each policy. Rationale:

IMHO Misplaced Pages practices and the related policy language are sufficiently protected by the consensus process and, where necessary, by Jimbo et al. This application of the term "non-negotiable" offers an unnecessary level of protection in project space. It has already led to misunderstandings. It also has the potential of stifling consensus-based changes. (Admittedly, I've seen it used in this context only once, regarding a proposal that was a case of WP:SNOW anyway.) AvB ÷ talk 05:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, no:

• It is not possible to separate the "NPOV principle" from "the way it is formulated on the NPOV policy page";
• "better reflect application of these principles": that's what guidelines are for. No need to rewrite the page about the "principle" for that. --Francis Schonken 07:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is possible to seperate the principle from the wording. As he has accurately pointed out, application of a law will change with time, and this page can change to reflect that, so this page, the wording, is most definitely semi-negotiable. The principle is not. --tjstrf 08:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever way you turn it, the *policy* is non-negotiable. That's what the page said, and there's no reason to change that. Your addition is redundant & confusing.

Well, a basic problem is that too many people tried to *negotiate* the content of the policy page. Better keep it clear: there's no such procedure as changing wikipedia's NPOV policy by negotiation. As said, there's no separation between the NPOV policy and the way it is formulated on the NPOV policy page, or, if there would be, that separation would be different per person, so that's not a workable distinction. It's the policy that's non-negotiable. If that would be limited to the "principle", you'd give way to attempts to change the content of the policy under the cloak of "I'm not changing the principle". Not workable. --Francis Schonken 09:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised to see that the separation of principle and wording can be argued. They are clearly two different things, just as idea and manifestation are. Aquirata 10:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm moving my bold edit here since it's being disputed and has not reached consensus:

"The three policies are also non-negotiable" changed to "The fundamental principles of the three policies are non-negotiable"

Misplaced Pages has done without an officially non-negotiable policy for five years. All it had was an officially non-negotiable principle. Three months ago a tiny consensus with very little discussion made three policies officially non-negotiable. According to Francis, this was hoped to help reign in reform attempts not supported by the wider community. I don't think we have seen any successes so far. I do think we're just beginning to see the disadvantages of this new language. And it's probably radically new - I've participated her for only six months, so I don't know this for a fact, but somehow I don't see a community here that is conservative to the extent that it wants to curb its own consensus processes and apparently no longer wants its policies to be consensus-based. "Sorry, move on now, this consensus-based policy is non-negotiable" where all we used to have was "this principle is non-negotiable". It looks like painting oneself into a corner to me. I think this really needs input from the wider community.

However, I think I'd better concentrate on another dispute regarding these edits, see above . I'd like to postpone the discussion on this meta-question (perhaps indefinitely). As I've argued before, I do not think it's in the cards to address the principles/wording dichotomy, though I do think testing the waters on this question can be informative and in the end I expect the meaning of what I'm saying to slowly dawn on others. This is towards formulating policies in a way that does not invite unwanted reforms like at least the current WP:NPOV does. I actually believe there are a number of items we must declare non-negotiable. I just happen to think the current text overshoots this aim by a wide margin. AvB ÷ talk 13:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

List of Misplaced Pages's non-negotiable key principles

Regardless of whether these changes are accepted, it would be good, I think, to list our fundamental principles, perhaps along the lines of the German Misplaced Pages which has adapted its version of Misplaced Pages:Five pillars to that end. See the German language NPOV policy page and the German language central/fundamental principles. Any thoughts? Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 06:07, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:List of policies. This copies the content of the "policy in a nutshell" templates on the various policy pages. --Francis Schonken 07:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I mean a list of non-negotiable principles; The German page has four immutable principles. AvB ÷ talk 10:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a list of principles " at some ultimate, fundamental level, how Misplaced Pages will be run, period." In fact I think you already found them (): User:Jimbo Wales/Statement of principles. --Francis Schonken 12:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)