Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:10, 10 June 2006

/Archive 1

Good article

Good article, and I believe an image inclusion is worth it but I don't think the statistics box is necessary as it makes it seem like Serbs from Croatia are a separate ethnicity from Serbs in the Serbs article. Antidote 01:34, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I think a proposed List of Serbs from Croatia is getting a little silly, seeing as it would just be a small selection of people from List of Serbs. Antidote

Serbian nationalistic myths

Serbian nationalistic myths shouldn't be included in the article, at least not without being noted as such. --Elephantus 16:21, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Only facts no myths! Truth hurts doesn it? Luka Jačov 16:36, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Apparently, it hurts some people(s) so much that they tend to replace it with myths. --Elephantus 21:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Problems with the article

There were some inaccuracies here:

1. Claims that Einhard somehow mentioned a place Srb in Croatia are false. The text in question apparently runs:

   "Liudevitus Siscia civitate relicta, ad Sorabos, quae natio magnam Dalmatie partem obtinere dicitur, fugiendo se contulit"

   Now I don't know much Latin, but it appears that the only mention of the Serbs is "Sorabos" which is the accusative plural of the Serbs. Claiming somehow that it means he fled to Srb in Lika strikes me as... a stretch beyond the breaking point.

2. Organization of the Military Frontier was pioneered by the Turks who settled Orthodox auxiliaries to weaken the enemy by periodic raids. It was later copied by the Austrians. Serbs today seem eager to bury this "Turkish connection", but some, like eg. Radovan Samardžić in the appendices about Yugoslav history he wrote for the Serbian edition of Encyclopedie Larousse (Belgrade, 1973), do admit it.
3. Of course, Gundulić and Bošković claims, completely baseless, or "based" on falsehoods obvious to those who aren't Serbs on first reading.
4. Sources for the Serbian, Bosnian and rest of the world numbers?

--Elephantus 21:30, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

1. You mentioned only one sentence from Einhards chronics.
2. You didnt write about Military Frontier??
3. Bošković was Serb for sure cause he father comes from dominatly Serb village Orahov Do but when he moved Dubrovnik cause of Law in Dubrovnik that only catholic faith is aloved he was forced to convert Luka Jačov 22:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

1. The other sentence mentioning Sorabs isn't much more enlightening: "Allatum est Imperatori de interitu Lindeviti, quod relictis Sorabis cum in Dalmatiam ad Lindemuslum Avunculum Bornae Ducis pervenisset, et aliquantum temporis cum eo moratus fuisset, dolo ipsius fuisset inter fectus." Still no mention of Srb in Lika anywhere.
2. What does "You didn't write about Military Frontier??" mean?
3. Orahov Do was as much Croatian (Catholic) as eg the neigbouring village of Ravno. It was "Serbian" only in the minds of those Serbian extremists who claim that most Croats are Catholic Serbs. The alleged "conversion" is in fact an article of faith, often mentioned but with no source whatsoever. Serious Serbian propagandist works don't even mention it, relying instead on other things to try to connect Boskovic father with the Serbs. --Elephantus 23:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I will consider only Bošković and Gundulić part. Many references claim that Srb was mentioned in 9th century. Luka Jačov 11:27, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ban Jelačić

"this is not only about historical Croatia; but the territory of present Croatia too"

Well, that is a problem. He was listed here among "Prominent Croatian Serbs" with explanation that his mother was Serb. But he was born in Petrovaradin, which is not in the territory of present Croatia and which also was not in the territory of historical Croatia in the time when he was born. In both cases, he is not "Serb from Croatia". In fact, he is not Serb at all. :) PANONIAN (talk) 04:12, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Rudjer Boskovic

User:Elephantus appearently thinks that I am joking about Rudjer Boskovic. If he need some sources that are not biased, etc...; he should see the Development of Astronomy among Serbs volume II or Razvoj Astronomije kod Srba II, a Publication of the Astronomical Observatory of Belgrade or Publikacija Astronomske Opservatorije u Beogradu edited by M. S. Dimitrijević; Belgrade, 2002. It refers to Boskovic as the first Serbian Astronomer, and one of the greatest astronomers and diplomats of the XIX century. If anyone calls this book biased; he is biased. :) --HolyRomanEmperor 19:40, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

And? Umm, maybe it will switch that honor over to Edmond Halley if it is discovered that his great-uncle wrote a sentence about Serbia somewhere? And maybe it will do some more research and find out that Boskovic lived in the 18th century? --Elephantus 00:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

That was a typo (my bad). No, it does not speak anything of its origin. In fact, 99% of it deals with his life and work. It is not just another piece of nationalist propaganda. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Forgotten answers

About Srb: There is no mention of Srb in the Royal Frankish Annals whatsoever; he was reffering to (western) Bosnia most probably, although this is still an issue of debate.

About Rudjer:

Serbian ancestry: There are some propagadist sources like Srpstvo Dubrovnika and the list of noble Ragusian Serbian families like

Coats-of-Arms of several Serbian families in Dubrovnik and there are sources like Ruđer Bošković, ancestry which carefully explains his situation, but User:Elephantus has denied even that source. Other sources confirm his conversion to Catholicism like The Virtual Library. There are no sources whatsoever that deny his sources otherwhise. Two of the three theories of the ancestry of the House of Boshko (to which Ruđer belongs) confirm Serbian ancestry (the third confirming a Montenegrin ancestry, who was actually of Serbian orientation)

As Serb: He is known as the first Serbian astronomer according to the Development of Astronomy among Serbs volume II; a renown book that is a Publication of the Astronomical Observatory of Belgrade from april, 2002. Other sources like that of Vlastoje D. Aleksijević, who wrote in most detail about Rudjer Boskovic in his Životopis Ruđera Boškovića, građanina Dubrovnika i sveta (Biography of Roger Boshkovich, a citizen of Dubrovnik and the world) confirm that he was a Serb; as well as almost every edition of The Universe; a magazin that has been published for decades by the Astronomical Society of Belgrade Ruđer Bošković, which was founded to continue his legacy. The Catholic Encyclopedia and several versions (but not the present) of Encyclopedia Britannica are also confirming his Serbian nationality. Rudjer is found on the list of 100 Greatest Serbs. Although there are argues that he should be present there, no hard enough reason not to put him there was presented. A Serbian-culture organization that can be located at www.rastko.org (it is a very famous organisation) regards him as a Serb. In 2005 and Italian branch of the site was to be put into action, but it got delayed; the commercial can be seen on the link which I presented. It was to be built in fame of two famous Serbian-Italian individuals; one of them being Ruggero.

As non-Serb (Croat): His face appeared on every Croatian dinar bill of the 1991-1992 wartime Republic of Croatia. The television in Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro B92 had shown an interesting matter, filmed by the BBC (together with that series regarding the Fall of Yugoslavia; appearently, the presence of Boskovic on the bill caused an near-international crisis; until Croatia finally replaced its currency by the kuna bill, which has no record of Rudjer whatsoever. The other Croatian source is a postmark of the fascist World War II Independent State of Croatia (where he is present). The current version of Encyclopedia Britannice refers to his father as a Croat, but denying to distance itself from reffering to Rudjer as Serbo-croatian. The Great Soviet Encyclopedia also regards him as Croatian.

All in all, he deserves to be put into the article, but we will be sure when www.rastko.org finished their Italian branch (very soon). — Preceding unsigned comment added by HolyRomanEmperor (talk • contribs)

Hm, wait a second. On one side, we have sloppy Serbian propaganda articles, created after the nationalist explosion of 1990 quoting other sloppy Serbian propaganda articles created after 1990, and on the other side we have serious encyclopaedic works (and btw, Britannica doesn't mention him as a Serbo-Croatian, it just gives a version of his name in what it terms "Serbo-Croatian"). Whom should we trust? That's a hard one. Maybe there was an anti-Serbian cabal in place in Moscow in the 1970s and it moved to the USA in the 1990s? :-) --Elephantus 17:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You are being a little one-sided. Here we have Serbian nationalist propaganda as sources (Serbdom of Dubrovnik) (which has actually never been proved as incorrect). You said "created after nationalist explosion of 1990" As I said, the Astronomical Society of Belgrade Rudjer Boskovic has been printing the magazine Vasiona for decades (during the 60s, 70s and 80s it was very famous). You asked for non-nationalist sources. I presented you the old Biography of Rudjer Boskovic by Vlastoje Aleksijević and the Development of Astronomy among Serbs II from april, 2002; both being informative sources about his life and works (no nationalism). You are being one-sided as you seem to accept only sources that regard him as Croatian and deny all sources regarding him as a Serb. It's strange how you don't notice it. The Virtual Library also confirms his transition to Catholicism. This source speaks in full detail about his origin, and I fail to see that it is biased as it is quitte informative and historic: Ruđer Bošković, ancestry Although appearently, the main problem is that regards Rudjer as a Serb. You were also refering to the Catholic Encyclopedia which is actually an encyclopedic work. Note about Encyclopedia Britannica: If one sees the previous versions of the encyclopedia Britannica, he will notice that the source keeps switching with Rudjer's ancestry from Serbian to Croatian and vice versa (the next edition will probably regard him as Serbian). His Serbian identity was confirmed by the three greatest experts in the field of Dubrovnik in Serbia and Montenegro personallly (check with User:Millosh for confirmation if you don't believe me). Did you count the Rastko Organisation (a huge database that has received more rewords of international degree than we can count) as Serbian propaganda too? The Military Encyclopedia of Yugoslavia (is that after 1990 :) also confirms him as a Serb. I mentioned the 100 Greatest Serbs, but you have disregarded the list as nationalist (without detailed explainations), so we'll have a blind eye on that. And then, aside from Croatian Ustaša and 1991/1992 nationalist propaganda, we have the slightly propaganda/communist Great Soviet Encyclopedia.

Any rational person would see that the situation is far too complicatly that just so narrowly as User:Elephantus seems to see it. We will have definite answers when the Rastko Organisation finishes their Italian branch (as I had previously mentioned, they're running a little late, see the commercial on the bottom of www.rastko.org; or better, if User:Joy returns from his break, who has much more experience than me in dealing with controversial subjects and nationalists. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

changes made by User:Elephantus and other

User:Elephantus had evicted several prominent Serbian individuals and deleted all sources/references of the article.

For the other matter, the place "Serb historian claim..." is POV. Since that fact is internationally accepted, like can be seen at Brockhaus' encyclopedia (the best German ecnyclopedia on Earth). --HolyRomanEmperor 14:38, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

User:Elephantus had removed a large chunk of the article and called it removal of my nationalism. Although that edit could be regarded as vandalism, it is necessary for me to point out that he was reffering to the ever-lasting controversy of Rudjer Boskovic. Still, because of one fact, it is highly inappropriate to remove large portions of an article just because of one bit. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:43, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag

The article is currently written from a Serbian (nationalistic) POV, especially in regards to the History section. Also, the list of notable Serbs requires clarifications and footnotes on the status of the so called "Catholic Serbs" it includes. I have also removed the Jelačić mother part until a reliable source is found. --Elephantus 19:58, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Reasonable. The History section must be reworked; but where's the confusion on the Catholic Serbs? If you aim at Rudjer Boskovic, let's finish that discussion first... Oh, and don't you think that your last post needs a NPOV tag too? (read it again :))) I'm looking for Jelacic's sources... --HolyRomanEmperor 20:09, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Žumberak

I am not disputing the census information but:

1. Žumberak isnt only municipality in Žumberak region, it also compromises parts of Samobor, Krašić and Ozalj municipality.
2. As they converted from Orthodox and became Greek-Catholic they became something between Croats and Serbs, and gradually many started to declare themselfs as Croats.
3. Cause vaste majority from Žumberak doesnt live in it we cannot trace how do they declare now.
4. If you look on the map which shows representation of Setbs by settlements in 1981 you ll see that in area aroun village Radatovići in today Ozalj municipality that it is Serb inhabitated.

Luka Jačov 09:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Response:

1) When you add ALL of Samobor, Krašić, Zumberak and Ozalj municipalities, you have a total of 296 ethnic Serbs and 47033 ethnic Croats, according to the 2001 Census results (out of a total population of 48,522 people). Ethnic Serbs make up slightly more than half of one percent of the population of the four municipalities you cited. Even assuming that ALL of these declared Serbs live in the "Zumberak areas" of the four municipalities, the percentage of Serbs is still negligeable.

2) The 296 Serbs represent one tenth of a percentage point of the Serbian community in Croatia. We might as well list Medimurje as a region with Serbs in it since there are 248 Serbs listed in that zupanija.

3) Ethnic origins of Greek Catholic Zumbercani are mixed, at best. Many of the last names have Montenegrin origin while others are particular to Zumberak. However, I do not believe that a categorical assertion of "Serb" can be made because some of them lived in Glamoc before supposedly coming from Montenegro. We do not know whether these people came from other Orthodox areas before settling in Zumberak.

4) Even if ALL of them were Serbian 500 years ago, this would not make them Serbian today. Ethnic communities exist, particially on the basis of self identification. Therefore, if Zumbercani do not identify as Serbs (except perhaps in one small village), then who are we to declare a group Serbian.

5) It is interesting to see the Zumbercani diaspora. They established two Greek Catholic churches - one in Cleveland and one in Chicago about 100 years ago. Both churches identified themselves as Croatian - not Serbian. Indeed, the vast majority of Greek Catholics from the region are involved in Croatian ethnic societies in North America.

5) I just don't see the point of listing "Zumberak" as a region with "smaller numbers of Serbs" when one could literally memorize the names of each Serb in the area.

15:30, 17 April 2006 Redina

accuracy disputed (Luka Jačov deleting references)

Luka Jačov keeps reverting my changes and deleting very important references to croatian 2001 census, which proves that Serbs in croatian speak croatian and serbian language, not so-called Serbo-croatian. Here is what he does all the time: .

Please, someone, stop him vandalising this page. He obviously has a problem with references that proves him wrong. --Ante Perkovic 11:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Protection

Please discuss before engaging in edit war. This page is now protected so you have some time to cool off and discuss. Please do that. --Dijxtra 09:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm unprotecting this page now. But, any substantial change to "Language" section of this article has to be discussed here. --Dijxtra 16:26, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Next person that makes undiscussed revert will be blocked for 24 hours. --Dijxtra 16:36, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Language

What they declare is merely political preference and this will only make confusion among readers. Luka Jačov 08:10, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope.

It is your political preference that will only make confusion among readers. Misplaced Pages is based on verifiability, citing sources, not on POV political preference of some editors. --Ante Perkovic 08:23, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Last word should have experts not censuses, you can name same thing in different names. Luka Jačov 09:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is a description of the Serbs in Croatia. Therefore, the census data is relevant here, since it shows what name is used by this ethnic group for the language they speak. I will return the paragraph, but without the irrelevant assumptions. --Zmaj 10:12, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not cause we are talking about what they speak not what they declare. Luka Jačov 12:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You said you can name same thing in different names. It really buffles me why the term that you use should be put before the term that 200 000 serbian speakers use. This is not your private website, but this information somehow keep bouncing from your mind.

What you do can be explained only as a extreme stubbornes in pushing your political preferences.

I can believe that you keep dismising official census of a country as an unimportant source.

Gees, you are one of a kind. You just don't know when to stop, do you? --Ante Perkovic 13:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

60% of them use that term others use term serbian nonetheless this doesnt mean they speak different idiom. Luka Jačov 17:29, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You are completely offtopic, Luka.

You see, text you deleted wasn't about the name of the language at all. It was about the term that Serbs of Croatia use when they speak about their language. It was pure fact, not someone's oppinion. Basicaly, you censored it because you didn't like it. --Ante Perkovic 17:47, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As said before this would only create confusion among readers and census data isnt so releveant when one could espect that they speak Serbo-Croatian and not Chinese or whatever. Luka Jačov 18:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

There is no confusion, it's merely a peculiar thing. The Serbs of Croatia have stated on the census that they don't feel that the language their speak is different from those that the Croats of Croatia speak. Theoretically they should all have said that they speak Serbian (for example, the Serbs in BiH do that), but they didn't. It's only confusing if our reader is an amoeba that can't comprehend information that isn't completely consistent. I'm sorry that you want to disparage the reader like that, but I do not. --Joy 01:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

edit warring (again)

I see we have an edit war here again. Now I feel like a teacher with a bunch of naughty kids. I didn't think I'll have to enforce my threat of blocking on grounds of non-discusing, but since I said I'll do that, here's a list of undiscussed reverts:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Serbs_of_Croatia&diff=next&oldid=57738830 by User:Ante Perkovic
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Serbs_of_Croatia&diff=next&oldid=57739238 by User:Estavisti
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Serbs_of_Croatia&diff=next&oldid=57749486 by User:Zmaj
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Serbs_of_Croatia&diff=next&oldid=57760507 by User:Bormalagurski

Now I will block this users for 24 hours.

As for Luka, he has been very smart. He was very careful not to break WP:3RR, nice work there. But it is plain to see that he is the person who re-initiated this edit war... then again unfortunately I don't see the grounds to block him and I don't want to be accused for blocking without proper reason. But, since I'm not blind, since I don't like being manipulated and since I've had enough of edit warring on this page, I will now present this case at WP:AN. Something needs to be done. --Dijxtra 15:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)