Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:04, 18 November 2013

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are SJ, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Liaison is Maggie Dennis.

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Internet versus vaccines

Jimbo, do you truly believe that giving the free Internet access to the poor countries is more important than providing them with vaccines and clean water? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.41.73 (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Good job, IP. Keep Der Jimbo on the edge of his seat. Sooner or later he needs to take control of Misplaced Pages to institute a governance system, and on a broader level needs to make the compromises that will allow this encyclopedia—and free knowledge as a whole—to prosper. Wer900 • talk 16:35, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Two editors who are not here to build the encyclopedia. The first one is a troll asking a trick question, to which Jimbo gave a wise answer. The second is pushing an almost incomprehensible governance agenda by means of false statements, and thinks that his governance agenda is so brilliant and memorable that he expects readers of his page to have memorized it. Thank you for giving a wise answer to a trick question, Jimbo. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

No, I do not think that giving free Internet access to poor countries is more important than providing them with vaccines and clean water. I think precisely the opposite and have said so publicly many times. I am a great admirer of Bill Gates' work particularly on the development of vaccines, but also the work of the Gates Foundation more generally to take a reasoned and well-financed approach to a great many global problems. Bill Gates is a very smart man and almost never wrong about these matters.

At the same time, I think it wrong to think of these things as being "either/or" - the solution to the problems of the very poor is multi-faceted, and people who are interested to help should feel free to do so in whatever way best suits their own talents, abilities, and expertise. Giving people free access to the Internet (or to Misplaced Pages) will not solve their problems with lack of water and vaccines - but solving their problems with lack of water and vaccines won't automatically give them the tools they need to overcome the tyrannies that have plagued them. Misplaced Pages volunteers should not drop their work on the grounds that the poorest of the poor need vaccines more - most of us can't meaningfully contribute to that problem. Mobile carriers shouldn't refuse to take positive steps to offer educational/health resources for free in these areas on the grounds that they need vaccines even more.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, emergency assistance is needed in many areas, and there are a lot of organizations working on that. They do good work and should be commended for that. But over the longer term, education may allow these areas to develop the infrastructure and educated population that will render such assistance unnecessary. The Internet is a powerful tool to provide that, and so getting that to underserved populations is an important goal as well. Seraphimblade 17:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that the Gates Foundation has a bad record in U.S. education; some of their more drastic experiments in tinkering with the structure of schools and schooling have destroyed schools and deprived students of their chances, to an extent that the students and schools involved may never entirely recover from (ask anybody involved in the "break up North Division High" fiasco here in Milwaukee). --02:31, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Precisely. "Give a man a fish and feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime." A great old saying, but it does not imply that a starving man should not be given a fish today (to eat while learning to fish!).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:25, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It is worth noting, as Jimbo implied, that the world economy and people of good will are capable of working on providing clean water, vaccines and improved internet access simultaneously. And several other good things as well. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Developing a modern electronic infrastructure in a developing country will allow such a country to build up their infrastructure in cheaper and more effective way. E.g. in Afghanistan it may be more practical to build mobile networks and then set up virtual government offices, virtual police stations etc. etc. That has the advantage that people from remote locations don't need to travel over poor roads. This then allows the government to have a presence also in remote locations, the lack of this presence is allowing insurgents to have more influence. A physical police station in some remote location is also an easy target for insurgents. Also, if there is a local police station in a remote location, you can't go there and report some crime without the whole village finding out about that. You can even imagine a virtual parliament were politicians can meet that is far less costly than a real physical parliament building which would require a lot of security. Count Iblis (talk) 14:35, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

• Nice response but as one of your user correctly pointed out first a man should get a fishing rod and then thought how to fish. There's something the WMF could do to help. Every year the WMF collects in donations much more money that is needed to run Misplaced Pages. Why don't donate a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization? 69.181.41.73 (talk) 17:07, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Um, is that true? Could User:Wnt or someone else knowledgeable please let us know if the WMF really collects a considerable amount of extra money.Camelbinky (talk) 17:39, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

This wasn't my thread, but I can know as much as anyone who reads this. If I read it, that is! :) For example, I see it says that the Wikimedia Shop we were talking below processed a whole 2000 orders in 2012-13! :) Wnt (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, no, it isn't true. It is true that the WMF has been modestly increasing reserves each year in line with the overall growth of revenue/budget/projects, but that growth has been squarely in line with recommended best practices for nonprofit organizations. If we spent every penny which came in, without building a reserve, people would be rightly critical of us for doing that. If we grew a reserve endlessly and out of line with best governance norms, people would be rightly critical of that. There can and should be some debate about what the appropriate level of reserves is, and some debate about whether we should be pursuing an endowment strategy (i.e. trying to get enough money now such that Misplaced Pages could survive and thrive from interest earnings alone, or some other similar target). But the ip's allegation is just not very helpful nor particularly reasonable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Camelbinky, Jimbo has just proved the point I made: Misplaced Pages collects much more money that are needed to run the site, as a matter of fact it collects so much more that they hope that one day "Misplaced Pages could survive and thrive from interest earnings alone".

Jimbo, saving is a good strategy for most people and organizations, but hardly for Misplaced Pages. As long as Misplaced Pages is as popular as it is now, there always will be enough money donated every year for it not only to survive, but to thrive. On the other hand if for one reason or another Misplaced Pages stops being popular, no interest income would make it to thrive or even to survive. The bottom line is: the WMF collects much more money that are need to run the site, and the WMF would have looked much better, if it donated a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 17:50, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Jimbo, building a reserve to create an endowment sounds like a sound investment of money. Any non-profit would work with that goal in mind, in fact any for-profit company would want a stockpile for a rainy day (or acquisitions), and not have to worry about posting profits every quarter (even governments try to do the same, and most US states require municipalities to have "rainy day funds" of a certain percentage of their annual budget or they can "chastised" or worse during an audit). I believe Jimbo has mentioned before that we probably don't want just one big giant Sam Walton/Bill Gates-sized donation to create such an endowment that would solve our problems because it could look like undue influence, but that we will probably need some medium-large donations to supplement the many small donations. While it is healthy for there to be watchdogs making sure that the WMF is acting in the best interest of Misplaced Pages, this IP certainly is not "helpful nor particularly reasonable" as Jimbo pointed out.Camelbinky (talk) 18:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course you are, and you could be absolutely sure the WMF is spending the donations in the best interest of Misplaced Pages, like hiring an employee described in this thread or writing the visual editor that doesn't work. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 22:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

WMF should have enough reserves to generously compensate anyone harmed due to false information in our medical articles or defamed in our BLPs, but an endowment? We could certainly raise enough to support the WMF off the interest forever - our goodwill is higher than just about any other internet service or nonprofit, today. But I think the WMF should fold if the day ever comes when our readership won't ante up the necessaries to keep the servers running.

The idea of the WMF being able to rumble on, regardless of how crap a job it is doing, or how crap Misplaced Pages has become, disgusts me. Really, the WMF does not have a privileged place in the hearts of our readers - Misplaced Pages does, today. The WMF does not deserve corporate immortality, it needs to be scarily, terminally and perpetually answerable to Misplaced Pages's readers. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 18:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

"...and the WMF would have looked much better, if it donated a part of it to the Red Cross or a similar organization." Well no, it wouldn't have. Money donated to the WMF was intended to support WMF initiatives, not anything else. To transfer that money to another charity supporting totally unrelated programs, however worthy, would open a can of worms. --NeilN 18:33, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Strange discussion. This all seems so removed from fiduciary duties of non-profits and what they can and cannot do with the money, as to be nonsensical. A nonprofit can collect money to sustain itself and accept bequests to sustain itself (yes indefinately) but it cannot itself generally make donations to "other worthy causes" with that money. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Nonprofits can and do give money to other nonprofits, but if they stray from their tax-exempt purpose they risk their tax exemption. Giving money to fund vaccines (if I understand what's being suggested here) would probably stray far from Wikimedia's tax exempt purpose. So yes, it's a strange discussion. They can't give money to the Red Cross (unless it was starting a Wiki I guess), but they can give money to Foundations dealing with the Internet probably. Coretheapple (talk) 23:40, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

• @NeilN, the current donation banner states:

• There are a few lies in this banner:
  1. " We have only 175 staff but serve 500 million users". Thousands upon thousands of volunteers aren't mentioned.
  2. "To protect our independence, we'll never run ads". The donation banners are adds.
  3. " We take no government funds. We survive on donations averaging about $30." That one is a half-truth, and a lie that is half-truth is the darkest of all lies: Lastly, in August 2009, the Omidyar Network issued a potential $2M in "grant" funding to Wikimedia.... In 2010, Google donated $2M to the Wikimedia Foundation...In 2012, the Foundation was awarded a grant of $1.25M from Lisbet Rausing and so on and so on. Also that "we survive". Really poor you only menage to survive?
  4. " If everyone reading this gave $3, our fundraiser would be done within an hour." This one is probably a lie. No matter how much is donated their fundraising will never stop.
• Now how about changing the banner to something like this:

69.181.41.73 (talk) 23:26, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

It's not my field, but I think that they have to get a certain degree of public support in addition to grants etc., to preserve their tax exempt status. Tax-exempts are highly regulated. Coretheapple (talk) 23:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think they have to get a certain degree of public support" but if somebody could prove otherwise please do. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 00:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Here's something I picked off Google, with the caveat that I'm far from an expert in this. Coretheapple (talk) 00:48, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

No idea why this was addressed to me but I'll bite since your assertions of lying are stupidly easy to disprove:

1. Not a lie. They assert two facts, neither of which you call into question.
2. Depends on your definitions of "ads". Our public radio runs promos for upcoming shows and concerts they're hosting. No one calls them liars for saying they're ad-free.
3. Again, two assertions that you don't disprove. What governments has WMF taken money from?
4. Why do you call an assumption on your part a lie on their part?

There are many things you can bash WMF for but hyperbolically accusing them of lying doesn't really help whatever case you're trying to make. --NeilN 23:50, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

As I said above a lie that is half-truth is the darkest of all lies, and I hope you will not argue that the banner is full of half-truths. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 03:06, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see the "half-truths" you're referring to. Every non-profit on Earth distinguishes between staff and volunteers, for obvious reasons (staff need to be paid, for example, and thus they're more relevant to fundraising appeals). Likewise, all user-supported media hold intermittent pledge drives (cf. PBS, NPR, listener-supported radio stations); these are generally distinct from third-party advertising. (In fact, the pledge drives are a necessary alternative to third-party ads).

To your third point, it is entirely possible that the average donation is $30 despite the receipt of several massive gifts. Your complaint suggests that you're unfamiliar with the numerical concept of an average. In your last point, you (willfully?) elide the difference between one specific fund-raising drive and fundraising operations in general. I agree with you about half-truths, which is why it's disappointing to find that your criticism is based on what could charitably be called half-truths. MastCell  18:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The similarity between a resume′ writer and a paid to edit editor

Jimbo. Let's assume I wanted to hire someone to write a resume′. I would want someone who is an experienced wordsmith, adept at the subtleties of manipulating words. Someone who is able to hide the truthful embarrassing facts of my frailties and flaws. Someone who can make the sun shine during a rainstorm. I would want my resume′ to highlight only the good points of my life and to barely, if at all, mention the low points. If my terrible grades as a freshman are mentioned, they might be explained as Freshman Adjustment. The sordid event and arrest resulting from the Sorority Incident could be easily passed off as a "childish prank". Since my lawyer promised that the record was expunged, there is no real need to even mention the event. The fact that I attended maybe 10% of my classes is slander and anyway, how is that pertinent, and who is gonna prove it!. I got my degree did I not. What I want, what I am paying the resume′ writer to do, is to make me look like a $10000 tuxedo. The fact that I usually run around in sandals and shorts is unimportant. He gets paid to make me look good, even if I'm a shlub. He is paid to hide my blemishes, my warts, my scars. His job is to get me THE job. Not to worry about following the Rules. And, I'm certainly not paying him to worry about the reader of the resume′. The reader is completely unimportant except for how the reader can be manipulated by my resume′ writer. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Precisely.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:11, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

That's one of the best descriptions of paid editing I've ever seen. Coretheapple (talk) 14:48, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It also sounds a lot like WP:BLP... Wnt (talk) 14:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

It was also written by someone reprimanded today for a blatant copyright violation, who issued a flippant response when asked to remove the copyvio. Not exactly someone to be lecturing us on ethics. Little surprise that he takes such a dim view of the ethical accountability of someone who would like a resume written, and of the ethics of someone paid to do so. Little surprise that Wales would instantly agree with such a dim and unfair viewpoint. - 2001:558:1400:10:C4BC:BB5A:F1CC:8EDE (talk) 15:36, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

1) It wasn't blatant. It was innocent.

2) I wasn't asked to remove it. It was more a "remove it or else" demand.

3) I answered in the manner that the "reprimand" was given. A more collaborative request would have achieved a more collaborative response. ```Buster Seven Talk 17:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You know, I really don't understand why the paid editing peanut gallery, both the long-established apologists for the practice and their non-logged-in clones - both of whom resort to remarkably similar personal attacks and fallacious arguments - have their knickers in a twist over this discussion. It's plain that they're going to win. It's plain that nothing is going to be done. But when you're making bucks off Misplaced Pages, cynically exploiting the vulnerabilities of this website and its porous rules and joke-like COI policy, any threat to the gravy train seems to be met with shrill hostility. Coretheapple (talk) 15:46, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No, Coretheapple, they've already lost, they just don't realize it yet.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

No kidding? Well, they're not the only ones. Coretheapple (talk) 17:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid advocates have already lost, and everyone realises it. That behaviour has been banned for a decade. They realise it, which is why they operate in secret, as does everybody else, which is why they end up getting banned when they're discovered. But this is old news. Paid editors are probably not in any trouble, given the general opposition to cracking down on academics, librarians, and other non-advocate paid editors. (Or perhaps I just don't realise that my ban is coming for being paid to do public outreach?) WilyD 09:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Advocacy of all kinds is prohibited. We're talking about paid editing - taking cash for edits, whether they seem neutral or not. As you correctly point out, they are probably not in any trouble. This is why I don't understand Jimbo Wales' comment that "they have already lost." Perhaps he would be kind enough to elaborate. Coretheapple (talk) 14:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The example that started this thread was of a paid advocate, of course, not a generic paid editor. Replace the example with a math professor trying to make Hermite polynomials more accessible to the layperson, and see how much support there really is for banning paid editors who aren't advocates. It's much smaller. WilyD 16:20, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

And a math prof who is editing Misplaced Pages isn't an advocate (for more accessible math)? I think the wikitalibans who advocate in this area all day long have formed their own jargon and don't even recognize anymore that their narrow use of words isn't what most other editors find reprehensible, which usually is PR for companies, but sometimes for individuals as well. Someone not using his real name (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I think most people are capable of understanding the difference between a math professor and a corporate PR department. I think we could learn a lot from the ways in which reputable publishers have addressed conflicts of interest and handled such distinctions. It's like we're trying to reinvent the wheel here. MastCell  17:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Understand the difference? Yes. Agree on the significance? Maybe. Discuss things on Misplaced Pages in a way that makes the difference clear? Not at all. A lot of the dispute seems to arise from the fact that people aren't drawing a distinction in what they say/write, and assuming everyone understands/means what they mean, when that's not the case. But paid advocates are already banned when they're discovered. Who is Coretheapple et al. looking to ban, if not math professors et al.? WilyD 17:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on now. Please don't put words in my mouth. I have yet to encounter a "math professor" innocently editing an article and hounded to suicide. But I have seen dozens of PR men and corporate reps (400 counted in that off-wiki website), and specifically was alerted to this argument by PR staffers dominating two articles on multinational companies. This "math profs" thing is just a ridiculous straw man. Coretheapple (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @WilyD: I don't think paid advocates are banned. User:Arturo at BP isn't banned; quite the opposite, people have gone out of their way to shower him with barnstars of integrity. Few or none of the accounts affiliated with the Transcendental Meditation movement are banned. There's some pretty low-hanging fruit we can talk about before we get into the math professors. MastCell  18:53, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Paid advocates have "already lost, they just don't realize it yet." I believe you Jimmy, please let all of us non-paid editors know what we can do to support this outcome. How long do you think it is going to take? All the best, Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:01, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

The reason he isn't banned is because he follows the behaviour standard Jimbo has advocated: . Basically - he ain't an editor. Which makes it impossible for him to be a paid editor. Which brings us back to the same point: Wiki-PR, et al. got banned because they were editing articles as paid advocates. They did so in secret because they knew the practice was already banned. So who else is Coretheapple et al. looking to ban? He denies that it's math professors, librarians, and so on, but can't give any examples of who it is. I can only conclude that it is math profs et al., based on what's being written (here, and at the multitude of proposed policies). WilyD 09:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to echo that. Those of us, the distinct minority of people in this discussion, who are opposed to paid editing are of course encouraged by the support of the founder, but more concrete action would of course be welcome. Coretheapple (talk) 21:08, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I fear I may sound rude here, Coretheapple, but do you do a lot of editing of the encyclopedia? Which parts of your editing of the encyclopedia (which I'm very pleased you do for free, just like I do) are you most proud of? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:25, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Not at all. I'm proudest of my effort to fight the scourge of paid editing. Coretheapple (talk) 22:34, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Right, let me put that more gently. Which encyclopedia article have you improved the most? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:54, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Coretheapple (talk · contribs), I would encourage you not to answer that, and Demiurge1000 (talk · contribs) I would encourage you retract your question. No good can come from such contests of "who is more valuable" among volunteers (see also WP:CHOICE). I think the best thing we can all do is focus on the issue at hand. --TeaDrinker (talk) 16:33, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree, and I think that in general this conversation has deteriorated, and has disconnected from reality, to the point that it has become pointless. This is Jimbo's page. Unless there are some other points that he thinks need to be covered that haven't already, I'd suggest that he put a moratorium on further discussion of this subject. If the Foundation wants to act, if paid editors have "already lost," then let's see that happen. Otherwise let's move on. Clearly a consensus to derail the gravy train is structurally impossible, as there are already a multitude of paid editors out there who will oppose any restrictions on paid editing. Misplaced Pages is so permeated with paid editors, paid editing is such a part of the culture of Misplaced Pages that either it is accepted, with all that flows from it in terms of demoralization and undermining of Misplaced Pages's integrity and reputation, or the Foundation has to ban it. Coretheapple (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Breathlessly awaiting more details.... petrarchan47tc 21:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

To those of us who are concerned by paid editing and conflicts of interest, recent history here is extremely depressing. To take two high-profile examples, our coverage of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill was substantially drafted by BP's public-relations department. And our coverage of the purported medical benefits of Transcendental Meditation is dominated by employees and affiliates of the TM movement. Neither of those scenarios developed stealthily—the former was ratified by the community, and the latter by ArbCom. We seem to feel no obligation to disclose these massive conflicts of interest to the unsuspecting reader, nor do we have any mechanism of disclosure even if we had the will. I can understand the sense of incredulity expressed above in response to the idea that paid editing has "lost", because all of the evidence to which I have access suggests the opposite. MastCell  22:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Tiny point: it was actually the entire BP article that was substantially drafted by the BP PR department (40%).petrarchan47tc 03:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

"On that note, Coretheapple made substantial contributions to the Deepwater section, bringing it to the neutral, informative state we have presently. Core hasn't popped up from nowhere simply to bitch at everyone." Most of you probably know Core from these talk pages, but I know Core from the BP article. After working at the page for a good ten months, Coretheapple showed up and pretty much saved the day. Core's use of bold edits and good arguments turned the anemic coverage of the BP oil spill into a fully flushed-out, healthy section (here) that stood the test of 3 RfCs meant to either delete or reduce it to 2-3 paragraphs (like this). petrarchan47tc 20:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

But one of the happiest side effects of participating in the discussion of the subject is all the flattering attention my editing record has received, all the scrutiny, all the helpful advice (such as "shut up") that I've received from the Paid Editing Lobby, both the experienced editors and the ones that say they are experienced but won't log on (but say that if they did log on we'd be blown away by their contributions). Just to be 1000% clear, I was not referring to Demiurge1000's question aboveCoretheapple (talk) 22:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Late to the party, but the copyright violation, mentioned way up above, contains a revealing section (quoted here, ahem, in part, as per fair use under the copyright act): "Of course, we all know what this means -- the anonymous competitors and critics of a company are free to edit in defamatory content about their target, all to their heart's content. However, the subject of the article is forbidden to engage directly and have the right of response within the content battle." Compelling argument for a anti 'Puff & Snark' policy that focuses on (edit, revert & delete of) content not (block and ban) of users (and which could still, quite reasonably, restrict the directly concerned from, well, direct edits). AnonNep (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

That is almost as absurd a straw man as "persecuted math profs" straw man. The reality is puff and text with negative inferences omitted, not defamation-hungry anti-corporate zealots running amok while harassisng decent PR people. In the BP article that several people have mentioned (I haven't, you'll notice), a PR person dominated the talk page and was repeatedly given back-slaps for his courtesy and good manners, while persons seeking to clean up after him were greeted with open hostility. That only petered out after the page received widespread publicity. Coretheapple (talk) 18:52, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

The PR person not only dominated the BP talk page but was a frequent visitor to the talk pages of BP-supportive editors with suggested changes. These changes would then almost immediately attempted (within 5 minutes) to be implemented. Had concerned editors, such as Coretheapple, not been safeguarding the BP article these change would have been in place without any concern for consensus or vetting of the information or discussion by fellow collaborators. and our reader would never have known that BP was editing the article. ```Buster Seven Talk 19:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC).

Sorry. Dare not reply. Just got bitch-slapped in the edit summary of a section removal by the talk page user. 'Rules' are really odd here, and I deal with enough abuse offline not to need it. Back to content editing. AnonNep (talk) 20:29, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Edits by Vice-Chairman of Wikimedia Norway

[Note: Because the anonymous ip seems constitutionally incapable of asking questions in a civil manner (having tried twice and failed miserably) I am going to write the legitimate questions and answers myself, as an illustration of how to do it.)

Hi Jimbo! In my ongoing exploration of the question of conflict of interest edits in Misplaced Pages, I found some that I thought worthy of calling to your attention, given your strong position on the issue.

What do you think of these edits to the article about Telenor, from June 2013? Of course we know that not every employee of every corporation is going to be familiar with your "Bright Line Rule" that forbids paid advocates from ever directly modifying a Misplaced Pages article about their own employer or client. However, shouldn't we expect someone who self-identifies as vice chairman of Wikimedia Norway and as Vice President of Telenor Group to be a little more knowledgeable about best practices at Misplaced Pages? He also created the Misplaced Pages article Uninor, which is an India-based joint venture of Telenor Group. It seems particularly problematic and potentially embarrassing since the Wikimedia Foundation has formed an alliance with Telenor to bring Misplaced Pages free to people in the developing world? This edit also strikes me as problematic since it is an article about a competitor of his employer, in a section about a "dispute" between his company and the competitor. I'd love to hear your comments on this matter. - An anonymous user, you can call me "Greg" if you want a nickname for me.

Thanks for calling this to my attention. The creation of the Uninor article seems to have happened in 2009, well before my formulation and promotion of the best practice of "bright line rule", so I think we can forgive that. But the other more recent edits are indeed highly problematic from the perspective of avoiding even the appearance of impropriety. I will immediately send an email expressing my concerns and inviting him to come here and explain, and I will urge him to pledge not to do anything like this again.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

It is well known that Erlend Bjørtvedt works for Telenor and he has also been a very active contributor to Misplaced Pages for some years. If there is a problem regarding the above article and business articles in general, it is that they are not well covered. Seems much more attractive to write about movie stars, soccer teams & players than issues that actually are central to our lives. If more contributors did so, then there simply would be less need for contributions from people that work at such companies. I have done so myself from my own workplace, and probably hundreds of others only within the Misplaced Pages version in Bokmål/Riksmål. If we had not made the contributions, useful articles would in most cases be lacking. Ulflarsen (talk) 21:23, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I have noted the comments and questions here about editing an article over a company for which I am employed. The Uninor article was created way back before these questions really came to the table for discussion. As for the editing on Telenor, from what I can see in the links above, these have been about correcting purely factual things like financial numbers or ownership in companies. I am serious about following community rules and also golden rules, but I must admit I have difficulties in seeing it as problematic that a Telenor employee corrects a purely factual ownership figure, in this instance when a company moves from for example 43% to 51% ownership in a subsidy, or when a company's gross revenue increases from 10 bn dollars to 11 billion dollars, etc. I am aware of this more recent bright line rule, but I will need someone to inform and explain to me if it is not proper to any of our employees to do such purely factual corrections. I am not a frequent contributor to English Misplaced Pages, and we practice more liberal rules at our smaller language versions where it is rather the rule than the exception that one can edit facts about your own organization, institution or company. But still, if I as an employee of a company is not allowed to do even the most factual and neutral corrections, like fixing an errenous financial number, than please inform me of what applies and where to find those rules. Kind regards, Bjoertvedt (talk) 22:57, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Best practice is to suggest edits on the talk page with full disclosure of your conflict of interest, and then to escalate if you don't get a response. The main problem with even very neutral and boring factual edits is that they can give rise to an appearance of conflict of interest, and of course bad actors will always claim that their edits are simply neutral and boring factual edits. It's best to avoid the question altogether, particularly when in a position of some responsibility at a chapter!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:05, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Ok! Best regards, Bjoertvedt (talk) 23:09, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Mr. Bjørtvedt says that the Uninor article was created "way back before these questions really came to the table for discussion". I beg to differ. The Uninor article was created in November 2009. In June 2009, Jimmy Wales was quoted in the media as saying, "the idea that we should ever accept paid advocates directly editing Misplaced Pages is not ever going to be ok. Consider this to be policy as of right now." How much more on the table for discussion could it be than that? Regardless of that timeline, surely since Bjørtvedt became a director of Wikimedia Norway in 2010, he should have been exposed to the extensive media coverage of the Bell Pottinger incidents of 2011, along with the UK Parliament and Gibraltarpedia scandals of 2012. Yet still, Bjørtvedt went ahead and continued to edit Misplaced Pages where he had a conflict of interest, deep into 2013, and even plugging in an external link (in 2012) to his company's website on an article about (frankly) a very non-notable Telenor Culture Award of which you can barely find three mentions (that aren't press releases) in all of Google News archives. Regardless of when it was authored, the real problem is Bjørtvedt's content. He describes it as "factual and neutral corrections"; but, if that is the case, why do we get results like this from Bjørtvedt's keyboard:

• The operational model is low-cost with a gradual network-build up, infrastructure sharing, GSM equipment at competitive cost, full-scale IT-outsourcing and a long term cost and capex efficiency.

That's not encyclopedia content, it's a corporate investor relations statement to shareholders. And he didn't even attempt to source it. There have been numerous advocates on this page over the past week or so (yes, I have been reading) who cry out in anguish about paid advocacy editing on Misplaced Pages. Well, now that a Wikimedia chapter insider is caught clearly having done it, where is the wailing and gnashing of teeth? Other than Jimbo's short reprimand, nobody else seems to care that Bjørtvedt has shaped his company's image on Misplaced Pages and turned a blind eye to his fellow (obvious) corporate editors like User:Telenor Info, User:Uninor (yes, same user name as the company itself), or single-purpose IPs owned by Telenor, such as User:88.89.28.34. With such a brazen disregard for years-old guidelines against COI editing, why am I not surprised that Bjørtvedt would take such a dismissive tone when called on the mat about it. This cheapens Misplaced Pages's reputation, and if we're going to ever get a handle on paid advocacy editors, we should be starting with those who are also trustees of Wikimedia charities that are taking money from the unsuspecting public who have no idea that those very trustees on Misplaced Pages are padding the image of the company at the top of their paychecks. -- Stylecustom (talk) 00:53, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with every single thing that you have said here except that "nobody else seems to care". I think a great many people care a great deal.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:34, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the evident facts matter much here, the spin is far more important. Eric Corbett 01:04, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

He did a foolish thing. Hopefully he has learned. Note that working for a company and admiring it, is not the same as being paid to do PR for that company, though. I'm very passionate about the firm I work for - actually I typically go nowhere near any content related to it, but I did correct some errors in the articles on my previous firm. Best practice: if you're going to edit articles where you have a potential conflict of interest, be open about it, even if you edit the article directly you should drop a note on the talk page saying why you made that edit rather than leaving it to someone else (for example, uncontroversial facts, citing the latest annual returns or whatever). Wikipedians are only human, after all. Most important thing: if you do make an edit that in hindsight you probably should not have made, nobody died, put your hands up and accept the judgment of the community. That way lies respect and transparency. Digging in causes drama and never makes anyone look good. Guy (Help!) 12:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

An anonymous user who apparently goes by "Greg" from time to time asked me to ask you to breakfast (with him) on Tuesday, since you'll be in town. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 00:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Let him know that if I see him, I'll call the police. But thanks for the heads up - I'll print out a variety of his past messages so that the police will understand the gravity of the situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

 Done --SB_Johnny | ✌ 14:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, could you please post here a variety of his past messages so that the community will understand the gravity of the situation? 69.181.41.73 (talk) 16:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

A few weeks ago a helpful admin pointed me to WP:EMAILPOST, which implies that he shouldn't. But you know that already. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, I think that every decent person understands that not only publishing private emails, but sharing them with other people and even reading private emails that aren't addressed to him is as dirty as it gets, but looks that you required "a helpful admin" to point it out to you. Oh well... In this particular situation I don't think that under "past messages" Jimbo meant private emails. 69.181.41.73 (talk) 18:48, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

At Greggs? ;-) 88.104.4.74 (talk) 10:38, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

There are levels and levels of "working for" a company. Some employees - it should be all! - have the right to go out on Twitter and say their work sucks, even under their own name. Some would be afraid to make even a slightly critical comment anywhere that could be traced back to them. A few luckless slaves would face sanction if they failed to hawk their wares to friends and family. Among these rankings, my suspicion is that a Vice President has more freedom than some, but less than others. Similarly, a union employee may feel assured of an equal income despite small changes in a company's sales, an owner would feel every rise and dip in proportion, but someone paid in stock options or relying on bonuses might stand to make or lose a fortune. (I have no information on that) Wnt (talk) 20:59, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

A user brought this to my attention, and asked for my input. My input is in the form of a question: what policy change, if any, would the person who raised this issue like to institute? Is he or she in favor of restricting paid editing? Or does he or she have another objective in raising this issue? I ask because this does not appear to be one of the situations that I feel are problematic and widespread: editors hired by companies to edit articles, or employees of companies assigned to edit or create articles. I may be mistaken. But whether or not I am, I'm curious to know what the point is of raising this, and what solution is being advocated here. Coretheapple (talk) 21:39, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that the user in question is not opposed to paid editing. His point is just to somehow try to make me look bad or inconsistent - it's a meme he's been pushing with zero success for quite a long time. The idea is that I'm a hypocrite - I am opposed to paid advocacy editing unless it's done by my friends or similar. This is wrong: I condemn it everywhere and in all cases, uniformly. Erlend should not have done this - it is embarrassing and wrong and a real shame. Again, to be clear, the only purpose for this banned users continued harassment and intimidation of me and others is NOT to opposed paid advocacy editing. It's a smear campaign, and not only does he know it, everyone who knows about him knows it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:10, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

No surprise. Coretheapple (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The question you consistently fail to address though is the distinction between paid advocacy and paid editing. The former is clearly unacceptable, but the latter maybe not. Is your jumbling of the terms simply an error? Eric Corbett 22:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I think I've been very consistent about the difference. It is paid advocacy that is the problem. When I said "the user in question is not opposed to paid editing" I was directly answering the question I was asked - with precision. I don't see how you can possibly say that I "consistently fail to address" the question when I've been perhaps the leading advocate for making the distinction loud and clear. One of the biggest problems we have in getting people who are new to the debate to understand the issue is that advocates turn up to confuse and muddy the waters by pretending that the two are the same thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:19, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

So what's the difference between paid advocacy and unpaid advocacy? Aren't the two equally abhorrent? Eric Corbett 22:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Of course it is. But if I hate sunlamps, and make a pest of myself in Sunlamps, I'll soon be known as the Guy Who Hates Sunlamps and I can and should and probably will be curbed. But if the Acme Sunlamp Company hires me to write an article on that company, or edit Sunlamps so that I use every excuse in the book to remove stuff on the dangers of skin cancer or whatever from that and other related articles, I'm a considerably more pernicious danger to the project for a number of reasons. One of them is that I can be replaced, if I get "hot," and another and possibly more experienced editor retained to push the Acme and Sunlamp cause. Coretheapple (talk) 23:17, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The difference is that one is paid, and one is not. And "degree of abhorrence" is not the correct question to ask when we ask whether we can alter policy to deal with a problem. Unpaid advocacy is a problem, a serious one, and one which will require different solutions, although of course solutions that help with paid advocacy should be considered if they can in part help deal with unpaid advocacy. One key difference is that unpaid advocacy involves people who have a particular set of core beliefs or a world view that makes it hard for them to accept the notion of neutrality. Paid advocacy involves people who have a job to do, a job which need not be inherently unethical, and a job which requires them not to embarrass their clients/employers. I think that we can prevent most undisclosed paid advocacy editing by making clear that there is a better way - open, honest discussion with the community. And we can raise the price of paid advocacy editing by clarifying what is wrong with it and that we forbid it. Paid advocacy editing is amenable to incentives in a way that passionate ideology may not be.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The profit motive isn't necessarily worse or better than other motives people might bring to their contributions. Ideally, the crowdsourcing effect would even things out: the POV of the supporters of an entity or person (paid or otherwise) would be counterbalanced by the POV of the critics. Personally I think a lot of the problem stems from the bar of notability being set a bit too low, so that relatively obscure topics (such as small private schools, romote villages, etc.) tend to get articles written about them by people who are motivated to do so because of a beef or a desire to plug.

The trouble is that there's not always someone on the other side to create balance, and there simply isn't the volunteer manpower to cover the 3 million plus articles. Worse: with every story in the press about a company's representatives editing their own Misplaced Pages articles, the more people will start to say "so what? don't they all do that?" Equally, as stories come out about grudge editors, negative information becomes suspect as well. --SB_Johnny | ✌ 14:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Re crowdsourcing: that's an interesting point. Yes, ordinarily over time you will get a kind of equlibrium through the crowdsourcing process. But paid advocates can skew the crowdsourcing equation by literally "buying" advocates. That is especially dangerous for fringe areas in which the editor pool is lacking in terms of interest. Also, there is a tendency to look at paid editing (and I've been guilty of this) as being payment for positive information. But our current lack-of-policies in this area makes paid editing against particular products, brands, organizations and people just as likely. This is a particular danger in controversial areas and in political controversies in which money flows in both directions. Editors here are constantly complaining about unpaid zealots. Do we really need paid zealots on one or another or both sides of an issue/company/brand/person? Coretheapple (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

In fact, come to think of it, negative input from paid advocates was an issue in the BP article. A few months ago, the BP publicist stationed on the talk page took exception to the way a particular analyst critical of the company was utilized as a source in the article.. Inter alia, he pointed out as follows: "I was curious and looked at Misplaced Pages article, as it seems the description came from there, then I noticed that she seems to have added this description herself. I am aware there is no rule specifically against editing articles where you have a COI (it is my preference not to do so here) but it does seem that there is a neutrality issue here of using a description word-for-word in this article that wrote in her own article. Would someone be able to update the 'Alternative energy' section to provide a clearer, more NPOV description of ?" His request was not granted, but as a result of this BP input there substantial edits to the article on the analyst. I for one am not comfortable with corporations sharing their "opposition research" with Misplaced Pages editors, as a way of skewing and spinning articles about themselves and their real or perceived critics, and others not towing the corporate line. The analyst herself did not reciprocate, to her credit, and may not have been aware of the entire controversy. If this had leaked out tot he press, there might have been yet another black eye for Misplaced Pages, as well as a "battleground" type situation if the analyst had fought fire-with-fire. This exemplifies one of the dangers of paid advocates aggressively pushing their POV on talk pages. Coretheapple (talk) 17:55, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Consider: Person A is paid by a company to edit Misplaced Pages, with a brief to make their article look good. Person B is given time by an employer t edit Misplaced Pages with no formal brief. The user alluded to above, does A and tries to assert that because B is superficially similar in some regards, and is tolerated and even potentially endorsed, then there is an inconsistency. There isn't. If you are given money, by anybody, to edit Misplaced Pages with a brief, even a vague one, to promote the interests of the person paying the bill, then you are in trouble. Everyone knows hwo he is, frankly, he's not here to help and never was. His agenda is personal benefit, financial or reputational.

If you edit an article whose context has a direct bearing on your income, you have a problem.

If you are n Israeli editing about Palestine, you have no problem other than achieving consensus for you edits.

If you work as a marketing manager for Ford, you should not edit the article on either Ford or GM. This is not hard to understand unless you are determined to engage in rules-lawyering. In which case, ping me a message and I will block you to save everyone's time :-) Guy (Help!) 00:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

As the user under scrutiny by this discussion thread, this discussion has been both useful and illuminating. I fully understand that editing on my employer's articles has raised concern and I will fully adhere to the golden rule of rather proposing change at the talk pages. Around 2009, when I was still a freshman editor without any affiliation with Misplaced Pages Norway or the Misplaced Pages movement, I was indeed caught by that enthusiasm which user Guy describes, I was highly passionate about editing the Misplaced Pages and determined to contribute every way I could. Since I could, as a Telenor employee, easily see many errors in several relevant articles concerning the company, I eagerly fixed and added both facts and more thorough descriptions. In 2010, I joined the Wikimedia movement and became board member that year, vice chairman the next. The debates which I gradually became a part of at Wikimedia mailing lists, made me realize that there were limits to engagement and potential COI situations, so I continued by mainly editing things that were purely trivial facts (correcting numbers, etc).

The user Stylecustom writes about my editing, that especially after 2010 he should have been exposed to the extensive media coverage of the Bell Pottinger incidents of 2011, along with the UK Parliament and Gibraltarpedia scandals of 2012. I am sorry, but the answer is "no". I have never heard of Bell Pottinger, I am unsure as to which parliament scandal he refers, and I have just briefly noted that there has been something on Gibraltarpedia but not seen details. I once took part in a Wikimedia Foundation e-mail discussion thread on editing among politicians and political employees, referring to the scandinavian setting. The british debate, however, I must admit is of no concern to me. These issues have never been in the media, up here. I also doubt that my Colleague (?) Uninor has noted those scandals in The Hindu or in the Deccan News. Guidelines must be communicated through the Misplaced Pages, not through medias that 4% of the world population read.

I am not a frequent contributor to the English Misplaced Pages, when I edit here it is almost always translations of what I have done at one of the Scandinavian language versions. My context is Scandinavia, and I contribute to both Norsk I and II, Saami, and Danish, when time allows. The COI guidelines of these language versions are very easy to sum up: they don't have any COI guildelines. If you look for the COI guidelines for any of the Norwegian Misplaced Pages versions or the Danish, you will search in vain. Only the Swedish Misplaced Pages has one, it says that you should consider COI, you should make your affiliation known, and: There are, however, no absolute prohibition against writing about the topics in which one has a personal interest, as long as one has good intentions and one demonstrates that one can keep neutral in the topic. As apart from other editors, those who choose to write with a conflict of interest are advised not to be bold, but rather to be careful. Corrections of typos, addition of trustworthy sources, non-controversial corrections of facts, and uploading of free images are such things that are generally encourages even if one has conflict of interest. . The reason why we Scandinavians have been so clearly liberal on this, I believe is threefold: 1) There is a high general level of trust in society. 2) We are so few that we would not have had a local Misplaced Pages if we enforced more strict rules. 3) Experience with substantial COI editing is probably fairly good all over, maybe based on some unconscious cost-benefit reasoning among admins. From my own experience, I have some dispute with communications officers who have edited "their" topics, but all over the judgment is astonishingly good. Very few people have bad intentions, as far as we can see in the scandinavian setting.

This is not to excuse, only to explain how it occured that I committed the failure to bring these more liberal rules with me to the English Misplaced Pages. I should have understood that editing here follows by the rules here. In the local Norwegian setting, I have supported the broadly accepted, more liberal stance. We allow employers to write about their university, museum, or company, as long as they have good intensions, stick to the five pillars, and make known their affiliation in the article or on their user page (Swedish Misplaced Pages specifically names user page for that). Altogether, I have probably done more than 90.000 edits, of which I estimate that less than 0,2% of these edits are on issues related to my employer. When user Stylecustom cited some of my earlier wordings in articles, they now appear as "embarrassing", to cite this talk page's owner. I had forgotten them, and it was useful to be reminded. To make the picture more complete, I have also uploaded 13.300 photos to Commons, of which probably 2.000 have been taken while on paid service for my employer. Some of my colleagues have also donated photos. Some photos exhibit equipment or installations of my employer, without anyone questioning that. No one have asked me to shoot photos or write on my employer's topics, I don't work for marketing or communication, and I don't know or control what my other 35.000 colleagues do. Most probably, many of them write for Misplaced Pages if they're geeks like me. We have seen above that some user named Uninor has edited the topic Uninor - that might well be a colleague in India. I don't think they've followed detailed media discussions about Wiki PR, so they probably just stick to the five pillars and the user guidelines that are visible in here. In one's local setting, one might not find a COI guideline at all, as we have seen.

I look forward to keep supporting even the English version of Misplaced Pages, with the best of intensions. Best regards, Bjoertvedt (talk) 22:59, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Mainland Europe differs from English-speaking countries in the choice of a decimal mark. Hence, your "0,2" corresponds to "0.2", whereas "90.000" and "2.000" and "13.300" correspond to "90,000" and "2,000" and "13,300".

—Wavelength (talk) 23:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate User:Bjoertvedt's explanation. You know, back in mid-2006 on English Misplaced Pages, it could be pretty much described as having "no absolute prohibition against writing about the topics in which one has a personal interest, as long as one has good intentions and one demonstrates that one can keep neutral in the topic". Then a new paid editing (not paid advocacy editing, but paid editing) firm called MyWikiBiz launched onto the scene. Jimmy Wales had something of a fit about it, and (in my opinion) the English Misplaced Pages's approach to paid editing has ever since been a mess of contradiction and hypocrisy. More than two years later, Wales would apologize for how he handled MyWikiBiz. But we seem to have a relapse now, as I understand (if we're to conclude that "Greg" mentioned on this page is the founder of MyWikiBiz) that Mr. Wales will "call the police" if the founder of MyWikiBiz should ever come within eyesight of Wales, even in Greg's own city when Wales is there as a visitor. I think the Scandinavian way of trusting people who want to do well by doing good, would have worked out much more peacefully and productively on the English Misplaced Pages. Too late for that, though. Wales seems dug in now more than ever. He says that he can't find a case of a conflicted editor who didn't get satisfaction from engaging exclusively on Talk pages and other noticeboards, but what about this matter that didn't seem to resolve in the conflicted editor's favor? -- Stylecustom (talk) 00:37, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Well that's interesting. Thanks for the background. I went over to MyWikiBiz and found an article in the Chronicle for Higher Education, which concludes as follows: "If the encyclopedia is serious about gaining acceptance from academe, surely it has a vested interest in dissuading companies from paying to improve their presence on the site." I'd really like to put the past behind us for a moment and focus on the issue that we've been discussing. Stylecustom, you're a new editor like me, though I may be a bit less new than you, and I'm really interested in hearing your opinion in answer to the question that I posed below: What is the downside of a ban on paid advocacy editing? Coretheapple (talk) 00:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

How have commercial editors "already lost"?

User:Coretheapple wrote above that commercial editors and their entourage are winning. User:Jimbo Wales replied that they have already lost. Coretheapple, Jimbo, and I are all in agreement that paid advocacy editing (which should perhaps more concisely be called commercial editing) should not be tolerated, and is a threat to Misplaced Pages. However, I have to ask how the commercial editors are losing or have lost. Several proposals for new policies or guidelines have failed to gain consensus for various reasons. Is the Wikimedia Foundation prepared to act due to the inability of the English Misplaced Pages community to act, or is Jimbo merely making a statement, when Coretheapple appears to be seeing the same situation as I am seeing (inability to obtain community consensus)? How have the commercial editors lost? Is there good news for opponents of commercial editing in the near future? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:00, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I took it as whistling in the dark and made a mental note never to take gambling advice from Jimmy Wales. We'll see, won't we? Carrite (talk) 03:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

We'll see. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 04:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll take WilyD's correction and expand it:

• paid advocates have lost,
• paid editors have not lost,
• paid editors who strictly follow wikipedia content guidelines and add strictly encyclopedic content and never write apologetic marketing-speak filler have not lost and they are not really supposed to lose.

--Enric Naval (talk) 11:09, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

What Enric said. Consensus right now, as I read it, is that if you declare any commercial interest and play a straight bat, you'll probably be OK. And if you don't, you risk a major shitstorm which will make your company look bad. Advertising to write articles for pay is generally accepted as wrong and inconsistent with the goals of the project. Those who advocate unfettered paid editing lost the argument, it's entirely about how we manage the inevitable fact of people with a vested financial or emotional interest in the content. Which is, actually, how it has always been, as any follower of articles on pseudoscience or creationism will be able to attest. Guy (Help!) 12:23, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the point of this discussion. If Jimbo wants to clarify his comment, he is free to do so. Coretheapple (talk) 14:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree. I was asking Jimbo. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The board is preparing a statement. The numbers are weak for commercial editors, and the arguments they have made are not carrying the day with the community. There has been a need for refined understanding, and that refined understanding is now spread through the community quite widely. No one supports paid advocacy editing other than a tiny and noisy minority. The writing is on the wall.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:13, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'm sure you've stated before what you mean by "commercial editors", but if you could indulge me and state a precise definition I, and I'm sure others, would appreciate it.Camelbinky (talk) 20:53, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

"Commercial editing" is a relatively new term someone introduced last week. I tend to continue to use "paid advocacy editing". This is editing of article space (proposing things or discussing with us on the talk page is not the issue) by someone who is paid to advocate for a person or organization. It does not matter if the actual edit in question is allegedly "merely factual" because doing that invites a huge and messy complicated argument about what's merely factual. If someone is paid to edit in their area of expertise (the canonical example is a university professor who is encouraged to edit by a university as a part of public service) that's not paid advocacy editing but it is paid editing of an unproblematic kind. Whether you call it "commercial editing" or "paid advocacy editing" it is relatively easy to identify and define, with relatively minor edge cases, and that's why it makes for a good line to draw for policy purposes. And to round out this quick summary: advocacy editing which is unpaid is also a problem - and some would argue it is a worse problem, but it is a different problem for which different solutions are needed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:26, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure, of course I do. Attacking the paid editors who directly edit articles would go a long way toward putting the cottage industry out of business. It would convert that entire field of endeavor into a black-hat practice, and I think it would wither away. But when I talk about article talk space, I'm referring to a narrow situation, which is agents and employees of corporations drafting text for articles, usually in the talk pages or subpages, and then getting a pal to put it in the article. Or employees/p.r. people effectively dominating article talk pages through sheer volume of "corrections." I'm also concerned about use of the articles for creation process. What I'm saying is that there are ways of evading the restrictions that apparently you're putting into place. However, even so, if you guys do enact a significant change like that, turning something you don't like into something that isn't allowed, and if you then give it the kind of publicity that it deserves, as well as an appropriate notice on the main page, you've gone a long way toward getting the problem licked. Coretheapple (talk) 22:43, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

See the note at the top. Guy (Help!) 22:20, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Two cents: I hope the issue of CREWE (more) will be addressed as well, as it goes hand-in-hand with paid editing. And more importantly, (User:Ocaasi might want to chime in here) the OTRS ticket system has been used to help commercial and special interests, like governments, shape articles without alerting the editors working on the page and without alerting the reader. There are no rules as yet about declaring the source of OTRS requests. I hope it's obvious that this needs to change immediately. Further, admins who take these requests sometimes hand the work over to editors who then go unsupervised and who do not always uphold NPOV. In the two cases I'm aware of, these editors engaged in whitewashing (at NDAA 2012) and greenwashing (at BP) articles, and in the case of User:Rangoon11, sockpuppetry and other nasty games. petrarchan47tc 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

		<font=3> Defender of the Wiki Barnstar For leadership in keeping Misplaced Pages free from commercial dominance Thank you, Jimbo Smallbones(smalltalk) 22:57, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll endorse that. Coretheapple (talk) 23:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

As an OTRS volunteer: rubbish. The principal job of OTRS is to help people who have a problem. The majority of all inquiries are referred back to Misplaced Pages with advice on how to ask for help on Misplaced Pages itself. The only significant exception is defamatory content, which tends to be removed. Any company that comes along with a "we demand you include XYZ" response gets a polite brush-off. That is what OTRS does. I cannot speak for every volunteer, but that is what I and the friends I have on OTRS, do. And in return we get sniped at by opinionated people with newspaper columns. There are multiple discussion forums, OTRS volunteer confer on any difficult cases, and we make sure (or at least we should) that we draw a distinction between a response to a credible threat, and a response based on just being nice to someone who is impacted by Misplaced Pages content.

Please do not assume you have any idea what OTRS volunteers do. It is pretty plain you don't know, and that's fine, but don't substitute your imagination for facts, please. Guy (Help!) 00:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I know for a fact, and have confirmed with Ocaasi, that the US government and BP used the OTRS system to influence their articles. In the case of the USG, talking points were suggested for inclusion in an article about an extremely controversial piece of legislation, NDAA 2012. When those points were added to the talk page, the admin referred to the source as "The Readers". At a certain point, it was revealed that the source was USG, but that declaration exists only on one talk page in the archives. As for BP, I am not sure what their request was, but the result was a very promotional (and greenwashed) section in the lede and Rangoon11 was asked to help. I pinged Ocaasi in my note above because we have already discussed all of this, and the majority of what I'm relaying comes from him (would you like to see the talk page archives?). Nothing I am saying here was refuted. Ocaasi also said at the time that we should indeed have rules for disclosure, but none have been drafted. I am hoping that we can take care of that now, and hope I don't upset anyone else by asking for it (certainly not my intention). petrarchan47tc 00:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Relevant talk archives here and here (not an exhaustive list). petrarchan47tc 01:47, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I think we need a "deep dive" into what the US government has been using OTRS for. Misplaced Pages is not here to be manipulated by the US government, and they need to learn that. I do wonder what the OTRS agents in question thought they were doing... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

If emailing the Foundation couldn't influence content, we'd be wasting our time even having an email system, That's not the point. Emailing the foundaiton is what hurt and angry people do, often after they have tried to fix some offensive and erroneous content and been reverted by someone.

OTRS volunteers edit Misplaced Pages on their own behalf. If some OTRS volunteers post content without checking it's compliant, then they are doing a bad job, but I have yet to see anyone on OTRS who is anything other than careful. Thats not to say people can't be manipulated, because of course they can, but privileged edits are used only when there is a big huge problem, and most of us don't have anything like the time to go in fixing stuff in any other type of case. We have templates telling people how to fix it or engage the community.

Frankly, if you want to make Misplaced Pages more supportive of your cause, against NPOV, then only an idiot would email the Foundation. And yes we do get a lot of idiots emailing. Guy (Help!) 00:23, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

As an OTRS volunteer, my reaction was similar to Guy's. I think the problem User:Petrarchan47 is that you used a broad brush when stating the OTRS ticket system has been used to help commercial and special interests, like governments, shape articles without alerting the editors working on the page and without alerting the reader I am aware of issues with the BP article, while not familiar with the specifics of the incidents you allege, so am not expressing anything about those specific incidents. However, the phrasing implies this practice is pervasive. I don't believe it is. I know I have fielded many similar requests. In some case, I point them to the talk page and urge them to make their request at that page, on occasion, I'll make the request on their behalf while noting that it came through OTRS. If I do edit the article, it is usually something straightforward like a birth year. The incident you describe sounds like a problem requiring a response, but your message was diluted with the broad brush approach.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:43, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

• Re:"The Board is preparing a statement." — And that relates to WP policy and guidelines, how exactly? The hardline "Ban 'Em All And Let God Sort 'Em Out" minority has the win-loss record of the Jacksonville Jaguars trying to force their perspective into organizational law. They've been rebuffed again and again and again and again and again. So WMF is going to issue "a statement" that Jacksonville has the coolest helmets and they're now planning a Superbowl victory party? Hmmm. That will make for interesting theater... Eventually, there will be a reasonable compromise — but not until after the Jags go 1-15, it would seem... Carrite (talk) 01:06, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The Terms of Use forbid : "Using the services in a manner that is inconsistent with applicable law." The FTC offered new guidance in 2009 in order to clarify the law as it applies to social media , which was only to say that the rules for disclosures of financial conflicts of interest still apply to social media. And that is, the disclosures must be "clear and conspicuous" . What we have seen is that editors have received, or had expected to receive, money from certain people or corporations and then wrote about the products and services sold by those people and corporations, without anything even approximating a clear or conspicuous disclosure. There have been many proposals to prevent this practice, but none have passed into policy. I don't think the fact that the Foundation is concerned with enforcing their own TOS and complying with US law should seem strange at all, but I could be wrong. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 01:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The FTC rules are quite the red herring. They apply to the "use of endorsements and testimonials in advertising". Most Misplaced Pages content, even that written by paid advocacy editors, would never be interpreted by the FTC as "advertising". When writing an encyclopedia article about a person or a company, the intent is to blandly convey factual information, not to motivate a reader to purchase something. So, no matter how many times we see this "watch out for the FTC, you naughty paid editors" schtick, trust me, it doesn't apply here. I have a friend who works at the FTC in Consumer Protection, and we've discussed this at length. -- Stylecustom (talk) 04:23, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

What about § 255.5 Example 7 in the 2009 Guide: ? If a seller of a product pays money to a blogger to write about the product and the blogger does not disclose this, she may be fined. The fact that the person is posting it on Misplaced Pages would only seem to make it more deceptive: Very few people would expect that the writer of material in an encyclopedia has a connection to the seller of the product, at least less than if the material was on a blog. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 05:02, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

§ 255.5 Example 8 and § 255.0 Example 8 are also good examples. It's clear that the FTC interprets the word "advertising" very broadly. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 13:36, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

In response to the above two comments about § 255.0 and § 255.5, the reader can easily note that the examples refer to "a blogger". Misplaced Pages is not a blog. Bloggers typically write about their opinions, and they typically use their real name to certify their personal connection to their opinion. Misplaced Pages writers, even the paid ones (if not especially the paid ones), do not produce opinion content. And very often (indeed, perhaps "most often"), Misplaced Pages editors do not use their real names to certify any personal connection to their content. They gather and represent other secondary resources that describe facts and opinions held by others. That is, on Misplaced Pages, we do not see "Acme Protein Mix is my favorite health supplement because it makes me feel more vigorous during my daily workouts". We might see "Acme Protein Mix was rated by Men's Health magazine as having the highest concentration of enzymes that may contribute to more vigorous workouts." (And a reference link to Men's Health magazine is provided.) No matter how badly you want to imagine that the latter example is an "advertisement" or an "endorsement", it is not. It is an encyclopedic restatement of an observable fact. Men's Health magazine can be verified by others, as it applies to Acme Protein Mix, and whether money was paid for that fact to enter Misplaced Pages or not, the content never becomes an "advertisement" or an "endorsement". § 255.0/5 cover endorsements. What you see in Misplaced Pages can rarely be counted as an endorsement of a product or a company, and so (as I said above) these claims that FTC rules restrict paid editors on Misplaced Pages are red herring arguments. Only a very inept paid editor would find him or herself on the receiving end of an FTC fine, because they would be editing Misplaced Pages in such a fashion so alien to Misplaced Pages's house style, their content would be deleted within minutes, anyway. For an example of an inept employer-based edit, let me offer:

• "With the experience and knowledge we have gained over the years, we have developed state of the art expertise within planning, building and operation of broadcasting networks. Norkring has entered a period characterised by new demands, new markets of concentration, and new projects. After years of improving our products, services and knowledge, the focus has been enlarged and aimed towards a different market. We have seen an international market that can benefit from our know-how, and the time is right to pursue it. Norkring is taking a step closer to accomplishment of our growth strategy."

That endorsement was offered by (probably) someone working at the Norkring company (User:Norkring), with Norkring being a subsidiary of the Telenor company where the vice chairman of Wikimedia Norway serves as a vice president. The Wikimedia Foundation, represented by Jimmy Wales' signature, just renewed an expanded partnership agreement with Telenor. The FTC would not likely be able to pursue Norkring, though, because they don't have jurisdiction in Norway (correct?), and "Norkring" didn't try to hide the fact that it is a paid endorser (one can assume that the reader would assume that "User:Norkring" is a paid endorser of "Norkring" company). -- Stylecustom (talk) 14:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Re the remark above When writing an encyclopedia article about a person or a company, the intent is to blandly convey factual information, not to motivate a reader to purchase something. That is precisely the point and that is why Misplaced Pages content is, if anything more deceptive when it purports to be the work of independent editors without a COI, when in fact content is written by the subject of the article. Google yields several articles on the FTC's concern about advertorials, among them this from a major law firm's consumer protection group, describing how the FTC has cracked down on "advertorials" that purport to be editorial content when in fact they are not. It reports that the FTC "alleges that these websites mislead consumers by posing as objective news outlets and failing to disclose the site’s financial connections with the sellers of the products featured in their 'reports.'" Such content "is permissible if the financial incentives for the report are disclosed to consumers in a clear and conspicuous manner. But, the FTC alleges that these websites went too far and misled consumers by posing as objective, independent news outlets. In many instances the connection to the sellers were not disclosed, and when there were disclosures, the FTC alleges that the disclosures were inadequate."

So to return to the point of this discussion: yes, the Foundation has a positive responsibility to prevent its property from being utilized in this manner. Even if the FTC didn't feel as strongly as it does, it would have a responsibility and could not simply delegate such things to its volunteers. It would be the same thing if a "consensus" or poll of Misplaced Pages volunteers favored reproduction of child pornography. If you examine the Terms of Use, child pornography is expressly prohibited. Coretheapple (talk) 14:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I just have more questions. So § 255.5 example 7 uses a blogger as an example, so that is why FTC rules do not apply to Misplaced Pages, because Misplaced Pages users are not bloggers? What about the very next example, § 255.5 Example 8, which is about a user on an online forum: Would anyone who would officially judge such a matter really distinguish a Wiki user from a online forum user? I mean, what you're saying makes some sense to me, but the impression I get from the guide is that the rules are for all people who take money from a seller of a product and then go and write about the product. For example, the newest DotCom disclosures text from the FTC says "The FTC Act’s prohibition on “unfair or deceptive acts or practices” broadly covers advertising claims, marketing and promotional activities, and sales practices in general. The Act is not limited to any particular medium." And their press release for the 2009 guide says : "The revised Guides specify that while decisions will be reached on a case-by-case basis, the post of a blogger who receives cash or in-kind payment to review a product is considered an endorsement." This communicates to me that an endorsement can be just any positive thing publicly written about a product when the person doing the writing is being paid to write about that product. I value your connection with someone in the FTC, but can you point to any literature from the FTC which makes the distinctions for Wiki-writers versus bloggers, objective writing versus opinion writing, and so forth, that you've pointed out? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 21:31, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Keep in mind too that Misplaced Pages is not even remotely comparable to a blog. Most blogs get limited readership and have even less credibility. Misplaced Pages calls itself an "encyclopedia" and trumpets its "neutral point of view," which even newspapers and other mainstream journalism does not boast about anymore. It is at the top of all Google searches. Coretheapple (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Atethnekos, I don't know why this is so puzzling to you, but I will try to respond with crystal clarity. Blogs transmit opinions of the blog owner and could be used to personally "endorse" a product or a company. Online forums transmit the opinions of the users and could be used to personally "endorse" a product or a company. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary reference that transmits reliably-sourced secondary information. It is very difficult (and stupid) to use Misplaced Pages to transmit the opinions of the users and can hardly be used to personally "endorse" a product or a company. I cannot point to any literature from the FTC which makes the distinctions for Wiki writers vs. bloggers, etc., just as I cannot point to any literature from the FTC which makes distinctions between automobiles and trampolines as modes of transportation. There is no reason for the FTC to address endorsements or advertising on Misplaced Pages, because Misplaced Pages generally is not used as a medium to transmit endorsements or advertising. It is a crowd-sourced encyclopedia, with a Disclaimer linked to from EVERY PAGE that says, "Misplaced Pages cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here." The FTC has no more jurisdiction over paid Misplaced Pages editors who abide by WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V than it would have over a funeral home that decided to sell refreshments during viewings. -- Stylecustom (talk) 22:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. So for example, take this edit from 2005 which added: "One of the most revolutionary products to come out on the market was the company's "Pampers", first test-marketed in 1961. Prior to this point, there were no disposable diapers. Babies always wore cloth diapers, which were leaky and labor intensive to wash. Pampers simplified the diapering process." This text has remained in the Procter & Gamble article pretty much unchanged right up to today, with no reference to any reliable source. So if the user, Inhighspeed, was later found out to have been paid by Procter & Gamble to write that Pampers are revolutionary and that they simplify the diapering process, the FTC rules would not apply to this paid, positive spin on their product, because Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a tertiary reference source?

I am sorry it is puzzling to me, despite the crystal clarity. What is the relevance of a disclaimer being linked on every page, as you say? For example the DotCom disclosures text just referenced says: "Necessary disclosures should not be relegated to “terms of use” and similar contractual agreements." --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 23:19, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

No need to apologize, Atethnekos; I think this is a truly fascinating and thoughtful discussion. I think your example of a 2005 edit that basically vomited a ton of unsourced claims onto Misplaced Pages would, indeed, be highly problematic if it were found that User:Inhighspeed was paid by Procter & Gamble to edit Misplaced Pages about P&G. First, P&G would probably insist on getting their money back, because that was an awful attempt at creating earnestly encyclopedic content about P&G. Second, sure, I suppose that the FTC would maybe have a claim against User:Inhighspeed if they bothered to subpoena the WMF for his IP address, then subpoena the ISP to determine which customer was assigned that IP at the time of the edit (if those records were kept for that long -- I think some ISPs allow customer-to-IP records to lapse every 12 months, if even that long). So, good luck with that, FTC! Anyway, I would like to make what I think is an important point here; something that just occurred to me. We (you) should be careful pressing this line of reasoning that the FTC will be the silver bullet for the WMF in its attempt to stamp out paid commercial editing, or paid advocacy editing. Remember, the FTC is largely responsible for investigating cases of false advertising. If they start looking too closely at Misplaced Pages, some civil servant there is bound to come to the same conclusion that most of us already did long ago: that Misplaced Pages isn't really an "encyclopedia" at all, what with all the reputation-damaging falsehoods that have been irresponsibly preserved in it over the years. The WMF could end up on the receiving end of some hefty fines, for it having insufficiently disclaimed representations of being an encyclopedia or, indeed, "the sum of human knowledge". (In other words, be careful what you wish for, you might not like the consequences of your wish being granted.) -- Stylecustom (talk) 00:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, can you explain to me what you feel is the downside of a ban on paid advocacy editing? Coretheapple (talk) 00:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

It's been covered so many times, I thought it would be obvious by now. If "paid advocacy editing" is banned, there are dozens of zealous Wikipedians who will then stretch that ban as a weapon to attack "paid non-advocacy editing". This will have the unintended effect of driving even NPOV paid non-advocacy editors underground. They won't want to disclose their paid conflict, because they'll find every edit of theirs will be mercilessly scrutinized, and editors against paid editing will attack content that is, in the eyes of most people, actually quite beneficial to the Misplaced Pages project. If Misplaced Pages policy could promise that paid editors who disclose themselves will be treated with utmost respect and consideration, and that their editing in article space will be equally evaluated against other editing, then a sweeping policy that clearly distinguishes between advocacy and non-advocacy editing would be workable. But, Misplaced Pages's culture has proven time and time again that no such respect or consideration will ever be broadly extended to paid editors, given that some anonymous, presumably non-paid, non-biased editors here (many who don't really even create articles) equate them with syphilis. (You do remember that, don't you, Coretheapple?) A community that lacks the maturity to intelligently cooperate even with paid non-advocacy editors can't be trusted to fairly adjudicate a ban on paid advocacy editing. -- Stylecustom (talk) 01:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

When you say "paid non-advocacy editing," what are you referring to, how does it differ from "paid advocacy editing," and how would a ban on the"bad" paid advocacy editing lead to a ban on the "good" paid editing? Coretheapple (talk) 01:16, 18 November 2013 (UTC) Perhaps you can also clear this up. You say A community that lacks the maturity to intelligently cooperate even with paid non-advocacy editors can't be trusted to fairly adjudicate a ban on paid advocacy editing. I honestly don't know what you are talking about. How has this lack of cooperation manifested itself? Are you talking about the MyWikiBiz case or something more recent that irks you too? Coretheapple (talk) 01:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

(ec) The Wikimedia Foundation owns Misplaced Pages in a physical sense. Lately there's been some troubles with the servers, and you may have noticed that you get an error message saying "Wikimedia Foundation error." That's because this website is the property of the Wikimedia Foundation. The Wikimedia board of directors owns the project, and it can do what it wishes with it. I have no idea what it is going to do, but if it decides to do something on all of its projects or just this one, it has ever right to do so, and as a matter of institutional self-preservation it arguably has a responsibility to limit the extent to which third-party commercial interests exploit its servers and other facilities. If I were a major donor, I would not look with favor on my money going to subsidize private public relations campaigns. Coretheapple (talk) 01:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Inappropriate user names

Where does one report what may be an inappropriate or offensive user name?Camelbinky (talk) 21:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

See WP:BADNAME. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:17, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually WP:UAA is the place to report, but only for blatant violations which merit blocks without warning. For others, simply leave the appropriate templated warning or an untemplated note on the user talk page. Please do NOT do both, as the warning invites discussion and change of username, and the report is a request for a block which would prevent this. Do read the advice linked above before taking any action. DES 21:22, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you both. I did leave a template warning and will see how it goes from there.Camelbinky (talk) 21:30, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

DESiegel, would you be able to update WP:BADNAME to make the options (and things to avoid) clearer? It would be nice to be able to link to things quickly and easily, without possible confusions like the one you mention. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Just curious - why did you ask this one user, out of the 20 million that are on Misplaced Pages?

Next time, you might wanna use {{helpme}} or something instead. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 21:37, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Just curious - why do you object? It's a perfectly fine place to ask.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I will look at it. Demiurge1000, was there any particular part you found hard to understand or confusing? DES 22:11, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! No, actually your initial comment "Actually WP:UAA is the place to report" made me think you were implying that WP:BADNAME was not the right answer. If WP:BADNAME is already perfect, that's fine. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:45, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:BADNAME describes several options on handling a dubious username. It includes a link to WP:UAA. But it wasn't strictly speaking the answer to your question "where do I report...?" I have modified WP:BADNAME slightly to mention that a user should not both discuss with the user whose name seems inappropriate, and report, mirroring the instructions at WP:UAA (which I patrol sometimes) where such dual reports are sometimes a problem. DES 14:56, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

J, I didn't object, I just wondered why they'd asked here. 88.104.4.74 (talk) 00:46, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I asked here because of the high number of very intelligent and wiki-policy knowledgeable editors who watch this page and I knew I'd get the best answer here, and quickly. Frankly I believe this page does, and should, act as a help desk, as long as Jimbo is ok with it of course; with no offence to the many good contributors who work hard over there at the real help desk answering questions and getting things done for people.Camelbinky (talk) 13:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

For people interested the results of my template asking User:Corpse-ManoftheObamaclypse can be found on my talk page. I for one don't want further arguing with another Misplaced Pages editor with a battleground mentality, it is getting old; I had hoped using the template would get the point across that he/she should use some personal reflection, but that didn't work. If others could comment, I don't mind my talk page being used to discuss this issue. An admin User:Drmies has already pointed out that the name is indeed combative/disruptive; other opinions of any persuasion are welcome. If someone wants to set up an RfC, that would be even better and get this resolved quickly. I on the other hand am tired of the arguing, and that user has made it clear it will be a drawn out battle with "snarky" comments; I for one don't want to be insulted anymore.Camelbinky (talk) 13:30, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, I regret that issues regarding my username are taking up space on your talk page. However, some comments have been made here that I wish to clear up. Camelbinky, your comment that you "don't want to be insulted anymore" necessarily implies that I have insulted you. What are you talking about? I do not believe that I have done that. I have simply expressed disagreement with you about this issue. You also indicated that you are "tired of the arguing." I have posted a total of two (2) comments about this issue on your user page--one in response to your template message, and one in response to comments from another user. That's not much of an argument. I would remind you that I was happily editing on Misplaced Pages in peace for several months before you began making an issue of my username, and that I am not the one who started this argument in the first place. Corpse-ManoftheObamaclypse (talk) 20:45, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps "Corpse-ManoftheObamaclypse" is a rearrangement of the letters in the name of a flower, however there is the unfortunate reality that the vast majority of editors would interpret "Corpse" as referring to a dead person, and "Obamaclypse" as a strong political statement, namely that Obama's Presidency is a disaster. WP:IU covers the situation—avoid names that are "likely to offend other contributors" or "seem intended to provoke emotional reaction", although Misplaced Pages is not bound by a set of rules, and no regulation is needed to point out that it would be unhelpful for some editors to use "Obamaclypse" in their name, while others have a slogan deriding Republicans. Please ask for your user name to be changed to something neutral (see WP:CHU) so we can avoid wasting time to debating the obvious. Johnuniq (talk) 22:47, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

I think en.wikipedia outsmarts itself trying to ban these names. We're better off letting people wear their hearts on their sleeves so that when problem editing happens their bias is obvious, than making them take on bland names and prepare Wikilawyering smokescreens for their POV. Wnt (talk) 08:56, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I probably would not have blocked this editor for their username alone, but when combined with problematic editing, as was the case here (see diffs on their talk page, and their contribution list that is not long), I decided to block them indefinitely until there is a discussion with them about how to properly edit Misplaced Pages and an agreement to choose a username that is not threatening, baiting or offending anybody. Corpse + Some Identifiable Living Person is a really bad idea for a username. Jehochman 13:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I am going to review those diffs, but my initial inclination is to oppose this block. DES 15:44, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Do you have admin access? One of the diffs is a pretty bad BLP violation. I'm considering whether to rev delete it or get it oversighted. Jehochman 17:49, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

First to Corpse- Wasn't talking about the arguing or insults with you. Lots of those who read this page know I have been in some bitter discussions in the past and it has burned me out and I am not looking forward to another one, because you have stated that any discussion about your name would result in "snarky" comments being thrown back and forth, your battleground mentality has made me not want to engage you further, when you read and realize our policies on how to discuss, I'll be happy to discuss with you. But when you think discussions are going to devolve into name-calling there is no reason for me to engage you, it is futile.

To everyone else- I believe a legitimate argument can be made that the name itself is a BLP violation incorporating a living person's name (that is not your own) into the word apocalypse and the entire name implies that a "corpse" is a "man of the" Obama Apocalypse... that death and dead people are the result of President Obama's actions/policies which result in an apocalypse. User names that imply such about a living person, politician or not, are a BLP violation.

As per the editor's contributions, some are very useful and good, he/she has contributed a bit on articles I created from scratch or largely re-wrote, and that is how I stumbled upon the name. I encourage the user to get a new user name, and join the NYCD wikiproject as well. I do hope an admin checks to make sure this user is not a banned user under a new name, the sophistication of the edits are quite above brand new editor. A person with conservative or Republican leanings can easily get in POV-pushing trouble in an with so many Democrats elected today and in history (and vice versa a Democrat-leaning editor on conservative articles! I'm living in Missouri now and I stay well away from the Republican politicians articles of this area on Misplaced Pages because as a NY Democrat I can not be impartial) so I do encourage the editor to be as impartial and always double check with either another editor or with the wording of NPOV and RS before editing politically based articles. A tendency some new editors fall into as a trap is a want to "neutralize" an article they believe is too "liberal" (or "conservative") and that it needs to be "balanced". A lot of times this results in POV-pushing, though unintended. Do I think this user is a "bad" editor? No. But the name has to be changed, it will bring undue scrutiny to the editor and a lack of AGF when editing certain topics. As Wnt points out, certain names bring attention to those who have a POV or will be a disruption; though this particular editor may not have the intention of disruption or POV-pushing, the name will bring attention and possible conflicts or offense to other editors. Imagine if Corpse were in a discussion about whether xy info should be on a liberal politician's article... a closing admin in an RfC might not take Corpse's legitimate points and views in to as high a consideration as they should otherwise have been taken because of a perceived bias or take the name as that of someone who has a POV-pushing agenda and is there to disrupt, and an RfC might swing one way or the other based on that admin's view of Corpse's name without even being consciously aware of it.Camelbinky (talk) 16:25, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Data on paid advocacy editing?

Hi, Jimbo and watchers. Is anybody here aware of any data on the extent of paid advocacy editing in Misplaced Pages? I'm asking because there are lots of hand-wavy arguments on both sides of the COI debate ("it's not really a problem" vs "it is huge and extensive problem") and there is nothing like data to help ground discussions in reality. Thanks! 16:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that paid advocacy editing is rarely flaunted, so data is not easy to come by. Can you suggest an experimental design that would give useful information? Looie496 (talk) 16:43, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea; I am not a data scientist and don't know what datamining tools exist nor how they could be used. Looie496, apparently you are not aware of any such data; thanks for letting me know. Am just looking for a "yes, you can find it at X" or "I don't know" or "it doesn't exist". Anybody else? thanks in advance!Jytdog (talk) 16:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Not to be too obvious, but there's some (incomplete) date here: Conflict-of-interest editing on Misplaced Pages. WilyD 17:09, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that is a good collection of anecdotes. Not data... what would be really compelling would be something like; "Y% of edits in a given day are tendentious, and X% of the tendentious edits made on a given day are made by paid advocates" with a brief description of how those numbers were reached. Knowing that Bell Pottinger accounts made ~1000 edits is pretty meaningless without having a sense of how extensive those edits were (adding a comma or deleting an article section?), what percentage of all edits that is over the time those edits were made, how long they persisted before they were corrected, etc. We have no COI policy and there are lots of people opposed to any new COI policy; If we want to get consensus to build something it would be very helpful to be able to bring credible evidence that paid advocacy is a significant problem, worth our time and worth compromising the fundamental principle of open-ness (which I think is what troubles most opponents of having a policy). It data doesn't exist, so be it. Jytdog (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

There was a study conducted between September 2012 and April 2013 that analyzed 100 randomly-selected Misplaced Pages articles about businesses. The research sought to determine if the creator of the article had a conflict of interest, and whether the article's heaviest contributor had a conflict of interest. (In many cases, the article creator was also its heaviest contributor.) I am sure that this study would be of great use to the Misplaced Pages community for review and critique purposes; however, the study was organized by a community-banned editor of English Misplaced Pages. Also, the highly granular results of the analysis did in fact "out" the real-life identities of many editors who did not publicly disclose themselves on Misplaced Pages. Therefore, how could this data possibly be shared on Misplaced Pages, when doing so would violate at least two policies (WP:BAN and WP:OUTING)? Which is more important to the Misplaced Pages community? Factual information, or adherence to rules that protect the Misplaced Pages groupthink? - 2001:558:1400:10:4024:ACA8:5451:B4BC (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the banned-editor could get the article published somewhere respectable and without outing anybody, so that the research could be of use to the community. Although, since the author got banned it is less likely that the analysis will be widely believed. Of course we need usable data - my question is very practical. Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 18:34, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

There is a two-page PowerPoint topline summary of the results of the research located on MyWikiBiz, which is respectable enough that it has its own Misplaced Pages article. The topline summary contains no information that outs editors. The author is a rather respected researcher -- he is a director of research at a Fortune 50 corporation. Whether Wikipedians can "widely believe" the objective analysis is really their problem, not his. - 2001:558:1400:10:4024:ACA8:5451:B4BC (talk) 18:43, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! That is interesting. Not strong (pretty small N and not published in a reliable source) but more than anybody has brought so far. Thank you. Anybody else?? Jytdog (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

(EC) I don't think we have good data on anything involving paid editing or conflicts on Misplaced Pages, our data gathering systems have just not been set up for that. Paid editors don't volunteer this information and remain in the shadows, not because they've been forced there, but because they know it is wrong to put adverts into an encyclopedia that doesn't accept adverts. We've got a similar lack of data on many potential problems.

I'll suggest looking in certain categories, e.g. Category:Foreign exchange companies, where it looks to me like about half of the articles are poorly sourced and on subjects that are at best of marginal notability. While the writing style usually does not scream out "This is an advert" it also is not our usual encyclopedic style, and there is seldom any less-than-complimentary info included. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 19:04, 18 November 2013 (UTC)