Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:27, 23 November 2013

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography: Science and Academia This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article is supported by the science and academia work group. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Economics This article is within the scope of WikiProject Economics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Economics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EconomicsWikipedia:WikiProject EconomicsTemplate:WikiProject EconomicsEconomics ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Template:WikiProject Libertarianism United States This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the United States of America on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions. Template Usage Articles Requested! Become a Member Project Talk Alerts United StatesWikipedia:WikiProject United StatesTemplate:WikiProject United StatesUnited States ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

The article Thomas DiLorenzo, along with other articles relating to Austrian economics, is currently subject to active community sanctions. The current restrictions, which were implemented by consensus#Ludwig_von_Mises_Institute Old revision of Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive816#Ludwig von Mises Institute, are: Any uninvolved administrator may, at his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the topic of Austrian economics, if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standard of behavior, or any normal editorial process. If you are a new editor, or an editor unfamiliar with the situation, please follow the above guidelines. You may also wish to review Talk:Austrian economics/General sanctions.

Anarcho-Capitalist?

This article makes the uncited claim that DiLorenzo is an anarchist. He has refered to himself in interview as "Jeffersonian" which seems to imply support for a minimal state. Any evidence to the contrary?Atripodi 05:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

In "How I Became a Libertarian", DiLorenzo clearly cites Rothbard as one of his chief influences, although I am not sure that will suffice as a citation for the anarcho-capitalist claim. Now in an article on antitrust regulation, DiLorenzo says, "Two events during the third week of May proved once again that antitrust regulation is nothing but a scheme to divert the public's attention away from the real monopoly menace in society: the state." That sounds pretty A-C to me (although some might argue otherwise) since a major complaint of anarcho-capitalists is that statism implies a coercive monopoly over the provision of certain public goods. In discussing Public Choice theory, DiLorenzo states that

"...public choicers have argued that many governments are preferable to fewer governments. This is just piling fallacy on top of fallacy. No, competition is not contingent on the number of firms; government is not a firm; and more governments, which usually means more levels of government, are not necessarily preferable to fewer."

Again, in the context, it seems to be indicative of DiLorenzo's position. Without bringing in original research which clearly wouldn't be appropriate, I can't really argue for the inclusion any better. Now, for the sake of full disclosure, I asked Dr. DiLorenzo about this when he was at the Mises Institute for the Mises University seminar in August. I asked him if he was an anarchist and if there were any sources that said so. He didn't directly answer the former, and indicated in the negative with regards to the latter. DickClarkMises 00:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, it might just be a matter of semantics, but if he doesn't call himself an anarchist I don't think we should. I'm going to take delete that sentence until we have better evidence. I hope this doesn't bother anyone. Atripodi 07:16, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I was doubtful of the claim, so I put the on there. I have read some of his writings and heard him speak, but I didn't remember anything that struck me as particularly a-c. I met and talked to him since posting the label, but I didn't say anything about it. Yes, an a-c would have to oppose anti-trust laws, but not all anti-trust opponents have to be a-c. He isn't a complete supporter of Jefferson, but I think his critisism isn't that Jefferson was ever vice president or president, he is opposed to some of the things Jefferson did while president, and Jefferson didn't think too highly of his own presidency. I don't think Jefferson could ever be considered a-c. Maybe DiLorenzo isn't quite sure himself. --Kalmia 06:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

Rogue9 - you have attempted to add and revert to the sentence "claiming that the South was right to secede to protect slavery" twice now. This violates WP:NPOV as it espouses an opinion about DiLorenzo's view of the south's secession, suggesting the absurd notion that he favors slavery. In fact, if you open that article you will find that DiLorenzo essentially endorses the opinion on secession of well known abolitionist Lysander Spooner, indicating that contrary to your edit, DiLorenzo does NOT believe protecting slavery was right. You are certainly entitled to your belief as to slavery's role in secession, but please do not use Misplaced Pages as a platform to make cheap shot misrepresentations of DiLorenzo's position on slavery. Rangerdude 01:37, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Lysander Spooner, in refusing to accept the measures that the South made necessary to effect the abolition of slavery, showed that he was no abolitionist. Using his reputation as a shield on the matter is utterly pointless against the well-informed; he was manifestly willing to talk, but unwilling to act. Rogue 9 (talk) 18:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Compensated emancipation

Right now the article "Compensated emancipation" is in "see also". However there's no mention of DiLorezno there, and no explanation of the connection here. If anyone is sufficiently familiar with his material we should put it into context. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

In his defense of the right to secession, TD is often asked to explain how slavery could have been abolished without the war. He points to the practice of compensated emancipation that every other civilized nation went through in the gerneration before the American catastrophe. This is one of the most controversial things he speaks and writes about. So, if the article ever gets fleshed-out further, this should definately remain.CsCran 23:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Thomas DiLorenzo, A historical revisionist of Lincoln's War of Emancipation?

Dilorenzo's writings are very interesting, because they seem to coach Southern Separatism as justified against the original reasons for the American Civil War to be other than a war to end slavery within its broad purpose. Southern Separatism is coached here as a libertarian stand for State Rights to remove or reduce the role of the Federal Government and diminish the role of the US Supreme Court's oversight of State laws contrary to the US Constitution and its Amendments.

Consider Thomas DiLorenzo's membership of the League of the South, which itself comes from a secessionist point of view and may affect DiLorenzo's ability to make an objective assessment of Abraham Lincoln's intentions and purposes as to the reasons for the American Civil War. This is evident partisanship which could be seen as impinging on scholastic credibility of his research of Abraham Lincoln as a subject matter.

A similar Libertarian position is taken by the theocratic Austrian School theorist Gary North,whose literature is also amply circulated among Lew Rockwell's libertarian circles, however a Theocratic undercurrent is revealed underneath when closely examining the argument for a smaller non-interventionist role of the Federal Government and its anti-tax protest. People are led wonder what does Ludwig Von Misses's economic Neo-Liberalism have to do with Southern Secession? The answer is Framing (social sciences) to repackage Secessionfor general consumption by the American Public.

--220.239.179.128 (talk) 20:28, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Article talk pages exist to discuss improvements to articles, not to discuss the subjects of those articles. Do you have sufficient sources that cover thesetopics to include this material in the article? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Somewhat relevant, but Lysander Spooner is the sole name mentioned on his view of the matter. He mentions him, but is he really that significant in his thinking? He is mentioned as a defense of many or most libertarian critics of Lincoln. So that indicates he's a major influence on the matter, but I'm uncertain that's true. Is he so major or is he just mentioned to show they're pro-Confederate without being pro-slavery? And is there even an NPOV way to touch that subject?--T. Anthony (talk) 03:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

DiLorenzo is not now and has never been pro-confederacy. DiLorenzo and other Mises scholars have always opposed the Confederacy (since it is a state and they are anarchists). In fact, Mark Thornton wrote a whole book about the wrongheadedness of the Confederacy's economic policies, entitled Tariffs, Blockades, and Inflation. Support for secession does not equal a wholecloth endorsement of a particular group of secessionists. The Spooner citation is relevant because Spooner was an abolitionist anarchist who favored secession. DickClarkMises (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

DiLorenzo is now and has always been pro-Confederacy and pro-slavery. There is no distinction whatsoever between these two topics and the secessions of 1860-61. Rogue 9 (talk) 16:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

This is false, and your repeating it here doesn't make it less so. DiLorenzo opposes centralized government, argues for the legitimacy of all secession, and has written on the Spooner objection to the Civil War:

Spooner strongly believed that, had the case been publicly made that slavery was unconstitutional, then world opinion would have pressured honorable southern leaders like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee to work towards doing what the British, Spanish, Dutch, French, and other slave-owning societies had done in the nineteenth century, and end the institution peacefully. In his own words, from the letter to Sumner:

Had all those men at the North, who believed these ideas to be true, promulgated them, as was their plain and obvious duty to do, it is reasonable to suppose that we should long since have had freedom, without shedding one drop of blood . . . . The South could, consistently with honor, and probably would, long before this time, and without a conflict, have surrendered their slavery to the demand of the constitution . . . and to the moral sentiment of the world. . . . You, and others like you have done more, according to your abilities, to prevent the peaceful abolition of slavery, than any other men in the nation . . .

To deny this and say that DiLorenzo was pro-chattel slavery is just blatant, baseless POV-pushing and is a violation of WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:BLP. Please stop making these obviously false assertions. You know that they are incorrect. DickClarkMises (talk) 23:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I do not know they are incorrect, because they are no such thing. The action and the motivation for the action are inseparable; to support the secession of the southern states is to support the reasons for which they seceded. That is to say, it is to support this.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

And this.

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery. They have endeavored to weaken our security, to disturb our domestic peace and tranquility, and persistently refused to comply with their express constitutional obligations to us in reference to that property, and by the use of their power in the Federal Government have striven to deprive us of an equal enjoyment of the common Territories of the Republic.

And even this.

But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other-though last, not least: the new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions-African slavery as it exists among us-the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the Constitution, was the prevailing idea at the time. The Constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly used against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it-when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

There is no escaping this fact: The entire reason for the Confederacy's break from the Union was the issue of slavery, specifically the Deep South's desire to maintain, protect, and expand the practice. General Beauregard did not exhort his troops with appeals to defend their homeland and their rights; no, he stirred them to action by accusing the Union army of being an "abolition host" come to free the slaves. Professor DiLorenzo goes to extraordinary lengths to defend this action; it may go unsaid, but he quite obviously supports it. Rogue 9 (talk) 00:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I appreciate your drawing out your reasoning here, because it makes it very clear that you are engaging in a version of original research known as "synthesis." Please see WP:SYN. Especially where it says:

Synthesizing material occurs when an editor tries to demonstrate the validity of his or her own conclusions by citing sources that when put together serve to advance the editor's position. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research.

This is what you are doing, and it would be forbidden anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Regardless of the merit of your synthesis (which I do not concede), it cannot be the basis for a controversial assertion. It especially cannot be the basis of a controversial assertion in a biography of a living person. DickClarkMises (talk) 00:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Bah. I didn't synthesize a thing; a single one of those would have done what I needed it to. Citing multiple sources for the same thing is not synthesis. Unless you intend to dispute the fact that he's a secessionist (and one completely unable to remain objective on the subject; his passions are obvious in every scholarly work he's ever produced on the matter, and he even drags it into ones that have nothing to do with the Civil War) who specifically supports the 1860-61 secessions of the southern states, then he is supporting the above ideas. The quoted passages are explicitly explanations by the governments involved for their actions in seceding from the Union. To say that he supports their secession while not supporting the entire reason for their secession is nonsensical on its face. It might make some sort of sense if there was a benefit arising from the action (it's understandable to like a beneficial action even if done for wrong reasons), but the secession simply brought destruction, death, and suffering, all to defend an institution that visited those same things upon an entire class of human beings while reducing them to the status of draft animals. It's a position that flatly contradicts libertarian and classical liberal principles to their very cores. Rogue 9 (talk) 01:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You are citing sources that pre-date DiLorenzo by a century or so. These are not reliable sources for controversial claims about a living person who came to be alive one hundred years later. I disagree with your conclusions, but that isn't relevant here. What is relevant here is what is in conformity with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. I am confident that the BLP noticeboard folks will agree with my interpretation of WP:SYN and the urgency here due to WP:BLP. DickClarkMises (talk) 01:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If DiLorenzo has written that he supports slavery we can report that. If noteworthy critics say that he's supported slavery we can report that. But if we think that he supports slavery due to his statements on other topics then we cannot report that. Supporting secession as an abstract legal instrument is not the same as supporting chattel slavery. While the cause of the Southern secession was neitrly wrapped-up in slavery, it could easily have been some other issue. Countries divide up along dynastic, religious, ethnic, or even political lines all of the time. Supporting their right to do so isn't the same as supporting the individual policies of the various divisions. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Citations

This page doesn't have a single citation to any source other than to organizations with whom he's closely affiliated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Binarybits (talk • contribs) 22:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Except, of course, to at least one organization with which he has had an ongoing disagreement (Claremont Inst.). DickClarkMises (talk) 17:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Notability

The subject of this article is supported by only three citations, one of which is dead, and another which points to a blog. Further, notability of academics prescribes a number of criteria for notability, none of which DiLorenzo seems to satisfy. Significant impact in his field? Doesnt seem like it. Prestigious award or important position? Nope. Editor of important journal? No. Further, the links offered all trace back to the Mises institute, or weblogs, not a good sign of notability. Bonewah (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Coverage of this topic is wide, independent and meaningful. If you truly think this topic is not notable, you might want to take this to articles for deletion. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:53, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

This article has a long history going back to September 2004 (almost 5 years), with contributions by many and sundry editors and has been extensively vetted and categorized. Di Lorenzo is a published (Random House) author who has been covered in many independent publications. This topic easily meets WP:N. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:06, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

I've worked on this article almost since its inception and, while I disagree with the subject's views, I acknowledge his notability. He has written several books and articles that are significant in their fields. Unfortunately, Google Scholar is no help in establishing how frequently he's cited because of other scholars with similar names. But there are plenty of citations to his works. {Notability} is better used for new articles. If there's a serious question about the notability of the subject then an AFD would be more appropriate.   Will Beback  talk  22:31, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Notability requires verifiable evidence, the mere fact that a number of editors have worked on it does not establish notability. Perhaps {importance} would be a better tag, but this is the first ive heard that {notability} is for new articles. As for an AFD, i thought it would be better if editors here were given a chance to address my concerns before doing and AfD. Bonewah (talk) 13:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Please feel free to take this to WP:AFD. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Just like that? You dont want to even try and work these issues out? Bonewah (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The article has its lacks, but topic notability is not one of them, the article text establishes this. If you truly think this topic is not notable, much wider input can be had at AfD and there is nothing untowards about bringing this up there in good faith. Discussions at AfD often wind up helping article content, even if the outcome is a keep. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:35, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, Im not going to do an AfD until other editors have had a chance to work out the issues here. On that note, would you mind if I put the {notability} or {importance} tag back on? Bonewah (talk) 14:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You have no consensus to place those tags. This article has been up for almost 5 years, has a deep contrib history, the subject is a widely published and cited author. Please wait for further input here (from other editors) or take it to AfD. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:13, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that is contrary to the rules of tagging. Ive stated my reasons for wanting to tag this article and I dont believe you have either refuted my arguments or offered any real proof of the subject's notability, google hits not withstanding. Having said that, I wont re-add them, even though i dont believe consensus is necessary to add a tag.Bonewah (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I agree with Gwen Gale's view on the need for a consensus to add a tag, but the tag is just an alert that an editor sees a problem. Let's focus on that problem rather than the tag issue. Basically, Bonewah appears to be saying that the article doesn't establish the subject's notability sufficiently because too many of the sources come from the same place. So let's find more sources, and if we can't then let's take this to AfD. Does anyone disagree with that approach?   Will Beback  talk  20:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

• Since the summer of 2009, it appears that a number of citations have been added to support factual assertions on this page, and Dr. DiLorenzo has continued to publish and lecture well beyond his obligations as a professor of economics at Loyola University Maryland. If he is not considered by his professional peers to be sufficiently "safe" to be made the "Editor of important journal" or smarmed with awards, this is not unexpected in the case of a scholar who has focused upon a revisionist approach to subjects such as the Lincoln myth and the false notion that the policies of Franklin Delano Roosevelt had resulted in anything other than a worsening and prolongation of the Great Depression. After all, a great many tenured professors of history and political economics have made the extension and expansion of these fallacies into their career rice bowls.
  The "Notability" tag should be immediately removed from this article.
  — Tucci78 (talk) 08:44, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Controversies

I can't believe there is no section about how controversial this guy is, and that this article treats him like a straight-up academic. He's a straight up neo-confederate successionist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.64.110.158 (talk) 13:27, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

That is a bizarre statement. Since when is someone not an academic if his work is controversial? He's as academic as any other economist or historian. All you have to do is attend or watch his Youtube lectues or read his articles on LvMI and Lew Rockewell's site. He's researching an area that has been neglected for centuries. Isn't Chmosky's or Krugman's work controversial? Or is it only that someone who is a free-marketeer gets to be controversial? Advocating for the right of secession is only following the Founding Fathers. Sure a "criticism" section may be appropriate, but not because he advocates secession, but because his positions or works aren't accepted by mainstream academics (State apologists). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.33.220 (talk) 17:46, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

He's "controversial" because he blatantly makes stuff up and attempts to connect unrelated subjects to his own personal hobbyhorse of glorifying the Confederate rebellion. He advocates insupportable positions from which he draws blatantly false conclusions (on more than Civil War history, I might add), and depends for his notability on fanning ideology and engaging in revisionism (which he follows by accusing serious researchers of being revisionist) rather than conducting unbiased scholarly research, to the point where in the academy he is ignored more often than time is wasted on criticizing him. Rogue 9 (talk) 01:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Undue section

A whole section with 2 full paragraphs about the League of the South "Involvement"? What, he really was a member or something – or is this Heidi Beirich's opinion? DiLorenzo has written about a lot of stuff, and because the fact that somebody may have (or did) publish something without his permission makes the material contentious. Perhaps some of this stuff is appropriate for this BLP, but I think a subsection or perhaps a footnote is the best course of action. – S. Rich (talk) 18:54, 21 November 2013 (UTC)18:59, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, that incident (including the Congressional committee bit) was just about the most notable moment in DiLorenzo's career to date. I suggest you read up on him and his work. SPECIFICO talk 19:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:ISNOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_soapbox_or_means_of_promotion. Articles should not be written purely to attack the reputation of another person. Isn't that a policy or something? User:Carolmooredc talk 05:01, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Given the absurd photo I deleted of the representative who criticized him in congress that I removed, is it time for WP:BLPN?? By the way, I know I've read various DiLorenzo denials of some of these charges, so they should be included also. User:Carolmooredc talk 18:14, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Not time for a BLPN. So far there does not seem to be much dispute about the Undue nature of the section. I suggest we wait for Steeletrap to weigh in as she did a bit of editing on the section. – S. Rich (talk) 18:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

You are correct. When people start taking out denials and well sourced material it will be. Frankly, besides photo, I haven't studied it enough to decide what easily can be taken out now as WP:Undue that BLPN would agree with as well, should editors revert it vs. BLP. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I made a first attempt to correct the POV/Undue issues per WP:BLP. Hey, SPLC is NOT an academic source for criticism of a scholars book. And after all the lectures we've had about finding such sources!!

I'm quite sure DiLorenzo said quite a bit more in self-defense which needs to be in there. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:48, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with expanding the defense. But being condemned by a U.S. Representative, after a testimony before the House of Representatives, is the focal point of "Coach" Di's (I say "Coach" because he appears to be wearing a whistle in his pic) career. This and the League of the South criticism are the source of his RS mentions. I can't find anything else online that wasn't written by personal friends/co-workers/employers/fellow travelers. Steeletrap (talk) 20:14, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Congresspeople are not gods (I say "gods" because some think they are) and Lorenzo says quite a bit more about Clay's comments that are worth mentioning. Plus I think we need to separate out the 2004 and 2009 SPLC attacks and see what responses he had. I'm wondering if SPLC is confusing some other conferences he was part of with League of the South and if there isn't proof of their claims, that advocacy stuff must go. Just because your searches don't bring up anything, doesn't mean others won't - and haven't dozens of times before - does it? For starters, I'm sure there's NPOV stuff of interest in the external links section which I haven't even read yet. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:36, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

In an effort to clean up the section, I removed some of Beirich's commentary. I see that "Beirich notes that the League advocates for a society dominated by whites, describes slavery as "God ordained", and defends segregation as necessary to maintain the "racial integrity" of blacks and whites." has been reinserted. This material is off-topic from the BLP in that it injects an opinion about the entity and not about DiLorenzo. – S. Rich (talk) 21:06, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Missed that. Again, all BLP violation related. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:09, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

I have removed the Lacy Clay material. Analysis: Would it be appropriate for this material, especially DiLorenzo's retort, to be included in Clay's article? – S. Rich (talk) 21:29, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

My rhetorical question remains unanswered. How might the paragraph mentioning Lacy Clay be appropriate for Clay's article? If not appropriate there, I submit it is not appropriate here. Without an answer, restoring the material is improper. – S. Rich (talk) 03:21, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Please specify a policy that supports your theory. MilesMoney (talk) 03:53, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

WP:IMPARTIAL says "Misplaced Pages describes disputes. Misplaced Pages does not engage in disputes." If there is a "dispute" between DiLorenzo & Clay that is significant, it would have more coverage than the single Baltimore Sun article. But this is an isolated incident where one representative in one subcommittee hearing made a few remarks. So what? If you watch CSPAN at all, you'll see that most questions are actually speeches made for the folks back home. With this in mind, including Clay's remarks and DiLorenzo's response really isn't a dispute worth encyclopedic coverage. If you really think the "dispute" is worthwhile, you might paste it into Clay's article. I would expect (and hope) that it be removed immediately as a WP:POINTy disruption. I ask the question with the following wisdom in mind: If this isolated incident isn't good for the goose, it isn't good for the gander. It is unencyclopedic material, and the added commentary surrounding it makes it even worse. – S. Rich (talk) 04:35, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Your statement does not reflect WP policy. Furthermore, your assertion as to the reflexivity of importance -- in other words that the truth of "A is important for B" implies the converse, "B is important for A" -- is logically and in every practical sense false. I'm quite surprised and disappointed to see it stated by an experienced WP editor. SPECIFICO talk 04:46, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

You're right; he didn't answer the question and he's basically making up policy as he goes along. None of this amounts to an argument for excluding this source. MilesMoney (talk) 04:54, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Moving more into BLP violation territory now

With this diff which I reverted, adding "southern nationalist" I can see the POV warrior mentality influencing editing and resulting in violations of WP:BLP. Thus I have moved what obviously is not a scholarly article out of that section; it looks like a vandalistic joke edit, frankly, given the editor's constant discussion of the need for more scholarly refs. And I replaced neoconfederate which is WP:OR with southern nationalist, which is how Wiki article describes it; DiLorenzo doesn't use the word either. When working in WP:BLP one must be conservative. I really must get ready for guests, so pardon me if I don't deal with this any more today. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:07, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

It's really hard to violate WP:BLP while fairly summarizing reliable sources, so that's not really the issue here. Rather, there seems to be a concerted effort to grossly violate WP:NPOV by incorrectly claiming WP:BLP violations as justification for censorship. We cannot remove notable criticism, particularly from an article that consists primarily of sources that are openly biased in favor of DiLorenzo. As a BRD step, I'm going to revert back one version and see if a legitimate basis for removing this criticism exists. I have my doubts.

Aside from content, I must say that the behavior of Rich and Carol has been highly aggressive and not at all civil. They seem to be acting as if well-sourced criticism of the subject of this article was somehow a personal attack upon them. This is not at all productive. MilesMoney (talk) 02:48, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

The template reads: This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous.' SPLC is an advocacy group with an axe to grind, so even though it is often used, when doubts are expressed about facts it throws out (which I will have time to check out today) or about it's propriety for judging scholarship in a scholarship section, these are serious BLP matters. The fact that editors who scream for highest academic standards if a source praises the BLPs they dislike, while using advocacy groups to criticize academic scholarship certainly shows a level of POV worth mentioning under Misplaced Pages:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Dealing_with_biased_contributors. So please do not attribute personal motives when policy motives have been repeatedly mentioned to you. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:15, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

DiLorenzo primary source on Spooner's views

At this diff SPECIFICO removes the italiced section from this sentence with this ref:

In the same vein, DiLorenzo has spoken out in favor of the secession of the Confederate States of America, defending the right of these states to secede in a view similar to that of abolitionist Lysander Spooner.REF: "An Abolitionist Defends the South," LewRockwell.com October 20, 2004]

The edit summary reads:

We need an independent RS reference in order to state that mainstream views Prof. DiLorenzo's theories to parallel Spooner's.

• If a DiLorenzo primary source article is good enough to say DiLorenzo has spoken out in favor of secession of CSA, it's good enough to say DiLorenzo talks about Spooner's views, especially since most of the article details Spooner's views as the only abolitionist to support CSA secession, with several references mentioned.
• Obviously it would be helpful to get a secondary source that has brought up both topics.
• Lorenzo also discusses Spooner in this book.

It is absurd to pillory the guy for paragraph after paragraph and not discuss his views. User:Carolmooredc talk 18:19, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

List of BLP problems in article

Sentences currently in the article (this version) are in italics followed by an analysis of the BLP problems in the sentences. Tags will be put on as necessary if issues are not resolved soon and any necessary updated listing mentioned at WP:BLPN:

• DiLorenzo's employer, the Ludwig von Mises Institute

• WP:OR unless ref'd since it is highly unlike LVMI is paying research fellows

• In 2002, DiLorenzo debated Harry V. Jaffa on the merits of Abraham Lincoln's statesmanship before and during the civil war. etc.Ref

• Editors pick out the most insulting sounding quote rather than giving an NPOV account of the articles' main point which is: "Mr. DiLorenzo rightly laments the rise of the administrative-welfare state that has increasingly displaced free government in America. But he wrongly asserts that Lincoln is the cause. American government today, which largely operates outside the scope of and with little regard for the Constitution, rests not upon the principles of Lincoln, but a rejection of those principles."

• DiLorenzo has written in defense of the neo-Confederate League of the South, supporting the organization's views on economic and social issues and characterizing it as an organization that "advocates peace and prosperity in the tradition of a George Washington or a Thomas Jefferson". Ref

• Since this is really a LoS criticism issue, per the below, need to move it down to that section
• Is writing in LewRockwell.com automatically scholarship now? Let's identify he wrote it there for sure.
• "Neoconfederate" is the SPLC's criticism and must be noted by such, if used at all
• We need a better exposition of what DiLorenzo says there since advocacy group SPLC is later used to characterize the group in extremely negative fashion and this seems an attempt at guilt by association vs. DiLorenzo.

• The League of the South Institute has listed DiLorenzo as an "affiliated scholar."Ref

• Where ever this is listed it immediately should be followed by his pointing out they just listed him as that after he did one event and it is not evidence of some long-term relationship

• The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) "Hatewatch" blog, by Heidi Beirich, characterized DiLorenzo as a "longtime activist" in the League of the South, which she described as a "hate group"; Beirich notes that the League advocates for a society dominated by whites, describes slavery as "God ordained", and defends segregation as necessary to maintain the "racial integrity" of blacks and whites.SPLC ref

• Heidi Beirich is an employee of SPLC so why would that not be mentioned?
• "Longtime activist" is a mere summary of allegations which DiLorenzo denies, so WP:Undue to put it in
• This highly negative advocacy group description of League of the South does not reflect the whole article but the SPLC description in it and obviously is a guilt by association smear tactic against BLP to defame DiLorenzo

• Beirich writes that DiLorenzo's gave lectures to the 2002 League of the South Conference and to its 2002 "Southern Heritage" conference and had written articles for other "Neo-Confederate outfits"

• Make it clear this is just an allegation made without proof by placing in sentence clearly followed by his denials.
• Anything DiLorenzo denied by phone to a reporter also should be mentioned, not just this LewRockwell.com article denial.
• However, the 2009 Tennesse event mentioned in SPLC 2011 source currently used should be mentioned plus BaltSun interview response that DiLorenzo "countered that he was invited to the event by a minister who mentioned no connection to the league and it was cancelled." (DiLorenzo also says "And even if I did speak at an event like that, so what?" and "I give speeches about Civil War economics to all kinds of people." but his meaning of "events like that" is not a clear statement that he means ones "connected to the league" so should not be used as "proof" of anything.

• and also for the Journal of Historical Review, a "Holocaust denial publication" JHR published his article, which advocated the flying of the Confederate flag on the South Carolina Court House, without his consent.

• Should make clear this is yet another SPLC allegation DiLorenzo denies.

Finally, the DeLorenzo's criticism of SPLC should be in this article, per BaltSun which establishes notability of his criticism, i.e.:

DiLorenzo also attacked the Southern Poverty Law Center in his Web post about Clay's testimony. "Their modus operandi is to label any individual or group that effectively criticizes their far-left, socialistic agenda as a 'hater,'" he wrote. "Apparently, associating with anyone South of the Mason-Dixon line in any way qualifies one as a 'hater' and potential KKK recruit in the warped minds of the hateful and libelous SPLC."

Hopefully this exposition of the BLP problems with this article will enlighten other editors and make it easier to make the article WP:BLP compliant when I rewrite the section. Please do not interrupt text with any responses but only respond below. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:10, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, experienced WP editors have all too often seen "BLP violation" cited as a pretext to whitewash material which, for whatever reason, they do not wish to be published here. The fact is that there's nothing in Prof. DiLorenzo's life and work which should lead anyone to suppress or minimize his views. Prof. DiLorenzo is admirably clear about his views and expresses them articulately and openly. I'm at a loss to see why any of his scholarly or popular writings or statements would be viewed as shameful or contentious. Remember, it's not our job to judge any such views, only to represent accurately what independent RS have to say about them. SPECIFICO talk 19:27, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• Stub-Class biography articles
• Stub-Class biography (science and academia) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (science and academia) articles
• Science and academia work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Stub-Class Economics articles
• Unknown-importance Economics articles
• WikiProject Economics articles
• Unassessed United States articles
• Unknown-importance United States articles
• Unassessed United States articles of Unknown-importance
• WikiProject United States articles