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People pushing POV via blind reverts

I changed two POV things to be NPOV, & was a victim of blind revert with no said reasoning.

My changes:

1. I changed "man made famine" to "some believe it was man-made and purposeful." (Frankly "man made" is pointless language, since all famines can be labeled such.)

2. I changed the translation of "holodomor" to it's literal translation according to http://www.holodomorct.org/event.html- "death by hunger."

"Extermination by hunger" is just an extreme sounding POV interpretation.

I hope people will see my changes are the most NPOV, & the my "foe" here is not even seriously arguing- they're providing no reasoning at all for their revert. Volunteer Eddy (talk) 23:20, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

"Man-made" (origin) and "purposeful" (intent) are separate and distinct and best discussed separately. Your change also introduces weasel language ("some" believe). VєсrumЬа ►TALK 23:44, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

> "purposeful" (intent) are separate and distinct

Hint: The people saying "man made" *mean* purposeful.

(That's why I said it.)

And (again) "man made" could apply to all famines in history.

ie, all famines are man-made. (If people failed to grow enough food, despite natural disasters, that's man-made.)

> weasel language ("some" believe)

"Some believe" is more NPOV than saying it's man-made/purposeful.

In summary, you are just trying to provide spin to justify the POV, & have provided no rational reasoning against my NPOV changes.

Volunteer Eddy (talk) 00:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The concept that "all famines are man made" is probably not sourceable to a reliable source, which is the Misplaced Pages criterion for being an any article. Collect (talk) 01:11, 19 May 2013 (UTC) .

>

My edit did not say "all famines are man made."

I was explaining how *logically* the inclusion of "man made" is illogical since it could describe every famine in history.

(Even if you simply didn't grow enough to overcome the risks of nature, that's a "man made" famine.)

You also haven't shown any reason why my NPOV edit should be abandoned in favor of the current POV.

Volunteer Eddy (talk) 01:29, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Your translation correction is of course welcome and NPOV, but your "man-made" edit and comments ignore the lengthy discussion above. In particular I think "man-made" would indicate the likely and predictable result of policies, whether it was intended or not, as opposed to the accidental result of misguided policies; it is negligence rather than just oversight. If you accept that, then it is not true that all famines are "man-made"; only a few are, such as this one, and it is wrong to add your weasel words. cwmacdougall 6:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

None of that is an argument against how it's more NPOV to say "some people believe" than stating it as a fact. I could always simply say " "people supporting the Holodomor genocide theory believe it was purposeful."

Here's a hint: the fact that you have to explain that by "man made" you mean purposeful shows that "man made" is not logical language. (Since all famines are man made, but not purposeful.)

Logically, that pointless language ("man made") should be scrapped entirely & replaced with accusations that the famine was "purposeful."

Volunteer Eddy (talk) 12:10, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Clue: calling outside editors "trolls" or "POV advocates" is unlikely to convince anyone at all. (talk- more arguing with POV trolls etc. as edit summaries). I suggest you have a cup of tea and simmer down a bit before trying to re-add your own concept of the "truth" here. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:49, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Dear Volunteer Eddy, I tried to define "man made" because I thought it would help the discussion; defining terms is often helpful when there is a debate or misunderstandings. But to me "man made" was always clear: not all famines are man made at all, though many could be avoided by human action the prime cause is often bad weather or plant desease, so to say the Holodomor was man made is to say officials were more responsible than they are with most famines in history, e.g. culpably negligent. "Purposeful" would be something even stronger. I'm not sure the Communist officials intended that millions die, but it appears they didn't care if that was the result of their policies. cwmacdougall 13:08, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. "Man made" means "resulting from human activity" (irrespective to what real intents were). In contrast to China or India, no famines took place in Ukraine before 1932.--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:21, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, we agree on the first part. Ukraine was not spared in the famine a decade earlier. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 22:01, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Concerning the translation of the word Holodomor : What are the reason of the new translation and what are source for that???? Why was the origin of the word deleted (Moryty Holodom????) . If Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia it has to rely on good sources, and not e web site : you can fond a explanation of this word made by a renown historian Andrea Graziosi http://monderusse.revues.org/2818 on page 2

Le Holodomor (nouveau terme forgé pour définir l’extermination de masse par la faim et son caractère intentionnel)

Le terme a été créé par la fusion des mots holod (en ukrainien, la faim, la famine) et moryty , tuer (par privations), affamer, épuiser ; ce qui met donc l’accent sur l’aspect intentionnel, à la différence du terme plus neutre de holod .

As the issue is translation, you might want to use an English language source. But never mind that, the problem is that "Морити голодом" simply does not mean "hunger-extermination" in Russian or Ukrainian as claimed; that is a mistranslation and I don't think it is supported by your source. It might be the origin of the term "Holodmor", and that latter term might mean "hunger-extermination". I suggest that I correct that bit, but leave the definition of "Holodmor". cwmacdougall 3:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

Marples

Marpeles per se is RS. The death claim section is attributed to footnote 41 - which is Serhii M. Plokhy, “The History of a 'Non-historical' Nation: Notes on the Nature and Current Problems of Ukrainian Historiography,” Slavic Review, Vol. 54, No. 3 (Fall 1995) pp 712 - 715, which is also apparently a reliable source by Misplaced Pages standards, and is noted in a number of other reliable sources. Any figures are "opinions" but when they are published in a relable source per Misplaced Pages requirements, we ought not dismiss them as being "propaganda" or the like. Collect (talk) 17:33, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Unproven statement

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, "Extermination by hunger" or "Hunger-extermination"; derived from 'Морити голодом', "Starving someone" ) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR and adjacent Cossack territories in 1932 and 1933.

How do we know the famine was man made? It might as well be a result of casual foolishness. I live in Russia, am Russian, and I know pretty well that in Russia most people are silly (I suspect, in other countries, too). So, no evidence. - 89.110.19.143 (talk) 09:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Even if it was casual foolishness by the Soviets, that still makes it man-made. — Richard BB 10:22, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• Hi. It makes it "man-made", if there was a human decision that created or drove the famine. If there was not and there is no evidence to assert that it was not - then it was not. On the other hand, if there is evidence that demonstrates or asserts that human decision did contribute or exacerbate it - then it was man-made... Stevenmitchell (talk) 08:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

It would also be "man-made" if it was the result of gross negligence or the predictable result of human decisions, in this case deporting the more productive farmers, confiscating farm produce and physically preventing the resulting starving peasants from getting food elsewhere. It was indeed "man-made". cwmacdougall 12:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Ok. I thought the word "man-made" means or suggests "artificially made", i.e. "intently made", which is certainly a result of linguistic interference, partly because in Russian people's foolishness is thought of as a "стихия", a quasi-natural phenomenon, which cannot be dealt with by any human ability; the specific word is "мракобесие" (lit. "mirkness' devilling"). By "casual foolishness" I mean mostly people who make day-to-day decisions, i.e., the whole community, not just the rulers, for it would be an extremity of silliness to blame rulers or words for everything. - 91.122.13.141 (talk) 14:10, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Actually it means "made or caused by humans" and decisions which cause a problem do, indeed, qualify under that normal definition. In the case at hand, there is appreciable evidence that "man-made" is an appropriate descriptor. Collect (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you can argue the man-made aspect of it, not all famine's are man-made, this wasn't a bad crop. It was the forced requisition of all crops and all food. Villagers were not even allowed to travel to Kharkiv to buy bread, even if they could afford it. Authorities in Donetsk took everything. Those taking the food were Russian, taking from Ukrainians (remember, villages were entirely ethnic Ukrainian, whereas cities had mixed populations). When you have Russian soldiers / NKVD officers taking every form of food from ones house, it's impossible to say it wasn't "man made". It's even harder to think it was just a bureaucratic mixup over alleged grain quotas.--Львівське (говорити) 15:07, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

What is a Birth Deficit?

Hi. What does "6.1 million birth deficit" mean? What is a birth deficit? You cannot possibly mean births that did not occur because of the famine, can you? Please be serious in your reply. Stevenmitchell (talk) 08:21, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

• If that, in fact, is what is meant by a "birth deficit", than regardless of what is quoted in an article, it needs to be rephrased and couched in terms and in a context of meaning that is actually a reportable figure. Otherwise, the current global economic slowdown would equally have to be described as a global genocide because of the population reductions it is causing, particularly in Western nations; and that seems unwarranted as a valid description, since you cannot really count as a loss something that never really occurred... It is a potential, not an actuality. Stevenmitchell (talk) 08:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

"Birth deficit" is widely used in academic sources as a "term of art". And is widely used to provide figures relating to incidents which appear to be reflected in a pronounced lack of births over a period of time in many places. Where a term is so widely used, it is not up to use to reword it unless the sources reword it. Collect (talk) 11:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, it is indeed in the source, but help us out by telling us what you, or the sources, mean in this context: does it mean miscarriages because pregnant women were starving, or something less direct, like parents deciding not to conceive or being infertile because of starvation. There is a difference. cwmacdougall 13:41, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

It is as well established as, say, "Gross National Product" and the idea that it "counts miscarriages" is not going to be a productive argument here. We use what the sources say and that is that. If you wish to start an encyclopedia where words mean what you wish them to mean, then do so. It is the difference between the expected number of births in a specified demographic group and the actual number of births in that group. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:19, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

So it does have the broad definition including lack of births due to people deciding not to have children? cwmacdougall 21:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Any references from reliable sources that the starving people simply did not choose to have children? While choosing not to have children is currently one cited reason for NRRs being less than 1 internationally, I did not find that given as a reason in the reliable sources cited for this article. Might you furnish your reliable source for that claim vide this article? Collect (talk) 23:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I was not claiming anything; you were. You said that "birth deficit" means lower than expected births, which surely must mean people choosing not to have children as well as miscarriages. I would expect that in the 30s, in famine areas, there were significant numbers of people feeling it was not a good time to have children, so the "6.1 million" must include some of them, mustn't it? The Holodomor was horrible enough without exaggerating numbers... cwmacdougall 23:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Please find any reliable source, heck even a tabloid useless source, which makes the apparent claim you feel might be apt. Cheers. Collect (talk) 23:41, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I repeat: I am not claiming anything; I'm just trying to understand what you and the source are claiming. If you don't know, then say you don't know. cwmacdougall 13:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

It means that fewer children were born during the famine for whatever reason. The deficit is the number of births required to maintain a constant population less the number of actual births. This information is required to calculate how many people died as a result of the famine. So if you know the total drop in population you can subtract the birth deficit to determine the number of deaths attributable to the famine. TFD (talk) 10:27, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable to me, but both the source and the article count "birth deficit" deaths in the total of people who died as a result of the famine. I think logically from your definition that "birth deficit" would include births that didn't happen because the potential parents decided it wasn't a good time to have children. I don't think that is what most people understand to be "deaths attributable to the famine", and it would explain some of the differences with lower estimates. Perhaps our text should make this more clear? cwmacdougall 14:24, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot of reasons for different estimates. A Russian source can severely reduce the numbers, or claim it never happened at all, which Ukrainians claim is Russians whitewashing the Soviet famine. While a Ukrainian source is more likely to cite higher numbers which Russians then claim is a result of far right nationalists trying to put out bad propaganda on Mother Russia. As to your attempt to explain the difference, there's a 3.2mil difference in actual casualties to start with which the birth deficit doesn't change. With the birth deficit itself, while there likely were some people who chose not to have children, we have no way of knowing how many people did that and how it changes the number. Any attempts to estimate numbers on Wiki without even a blog or tabloid source is original research and not permitted on Wiki. Chrissd21 (talk) 03:11, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The number of deaths due to the famine is the decrease in population minus the birth deficit. TFD (talk) 03:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit war by 173.76.253.77

Please, stop your edit war. You try to remove correct improvements. The current statement that besides Ukrainians only Cossack lands were concerned is not the whole truth. The famine spread to all agricultural parts of the Soviet Union, including the Lower Volga, Northern Kazakhstan and Southern Urals. Regions like Saratov, Tambov, Orenburg were among the most harmed by the famine. It's completely unjustified to hide that Holodomor war part of a much broader famine in the whole agricultural belt of the USSR. Even in the Ukrainian SSR, other ethnicities became victims proportionally to their population share: Russians, Jews, Poles, Bulgarians, Greeks etc. The denial of these facts and the attempt to portray Ukrainians as the single and exclusive victims is against the principle encyclopaedic accurateness and is politically-motivated. --Shervinsky (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

You started this war by changing the long-run, stable version of the article with you agenda, and also inserting statements that only few countries recognize this event as a genocide. I don't agree with your edits, and therefore I am simply reverting to the long-run version of the article, and yet you keep pushing your POV edits, without even discussing them. First of all, only Ukrainians and Cossacks (who are mostly of Ukrainian descent) refer to the Famine as the Holodomor! The Russians refer to this famine as the Soviet Famine, they don't use the word Holodomor. The non-Ukrainian portion of the Famine is called the Soviet Famine. There are two separate articles in Wikipeadia dealing with the famine -- the Holodomor and the Soviet Famine. If you want to write about other ethnicities perhaps you could just edit the Soviet Famine version, which deals with the broader notion of the famine of 1932-1933. Second, going back to your claims that Russians were also targeted by the famine, the "Russians" who died in the lower Volga region, Don region, Orenburg, Ural (Yaik) regions of Kazakhstan are the Cossacks, not Russians. Also ethnic Germans were the ones mostly targeted in the Saratov region (just check their numbers in the census before and after the famine). If you insist on other ethnicities, you should NAME who they are: Ukrainians, Cossacks, ethnic Germans, Russians. Don't hide the victims behind "other ethnicities". In his letters to Sholokhov, Stalin called this famine against the Cossacks "the war of attrition". This was a cold, pre-meditated murder by starvation, disproportionately targeting certain ethnic groups. In now way this was an oversight. This was a pure, calculated genocide.173.76.253.77 (talk) 05:01, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I was right, only some countries (about 20 out of 200) recognized Holodomor as some kind of ethnic genocide. My formulation is more precise than yours which suggests that it is recognized everywhere. Holodomor was part of a broader famine and it's more than legitimate to mention this fact. If you claim, that the Soviet Union had two simultaneous and differently-motivated famies that had nothing to do with each other you have to prove it. Cossacks are only partly descendants of Ukrainians. Kuban Cossacks are predominantly of Ukrainian descent, Don Cossacks, Volga Cossacks, Ural Cossacks are only marginally Ukrainian. Your attempt to portray everything as a deliberate act against ethnic Ukrainians (including Russian lands), is dubious and obscure. BTW, most Don Cossacks, Ural Cossacks, Volga Cossacks considered themselves as a subgroup of Russians. --Shervinsky (talk) 14:03, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi. You have to provide the reliable references supporting your suggestions. --Andrux (talk) 15:15, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Trivial things don't need to be proved. Misplaced Pages rules exclude trivialities because it offers a broad field for vandals who try to disturb constructive work. The fact is that the famine covered all agricultural areas of the Soviet Union and if you claim that Holodomor had no connection to it and don't even agree to mention it, YOU need to provide proofs. --Shervinsky (talk) 10:34, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

We are talking about non-trivial issues here. Holodomor was tightly concentrated within certain (but not all) parts of the black soil agricultural regions. The parts seem to perfectly coincide with the borders of Ukraine, the former Don, Kuban, Terek, Ural, and Orenburg Cossack Hosts. Also Saratov region was affected, but back then it was called the Volga German (Autonomous Socialist) Republic. The estimates of life loss during Holodomor were calculated by Robert Conquest and others, and they tell us a rather striking picture of human losses from starvation: up to 5 million in Ukraine, 1 million in Don, Kuban, Terek, and 1 million in "other areas" (Saratov, Ural, Orenburg). The picture is very clear -- it is very clear which socio-ethnic groups were the primary target of the Holodomor. We have to name them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ViktorC (talk • contribs) 16:59, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. What we HAVE TO mention is that Holodomor was part of a broader famine and aimed no only at Ukrainians. It aimed against different ethnicities, including many Russians who lived in the Lower Volga and South Urals regions (even if we assume that Cossacks are not a subgroup of Russians). Even in the Don and Kuban area the Russians made up big parts of the populations and lived along with Cossacks. There is no proof that the famine (including Holodomor) had primarily an ethnic background instead of a social background (peasants of whatever ethnicity). --Shervinsky (talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

@Shervinsky ... and no, Don Cossacks do not consider themselves of Russian ethnicity. In the 2002 and 2010 population census, they listed themselves as "Kazaki". The Census officials however listed "Kazaki" as a sub-ethnic group of Russian, which is not what people were writing when filling out the census forms. See http://kazaki-narod.jimdo.com/ on this. ViktorC (talk) 17:07, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Shervinsky, this is not a trivial issue, and Misplaced Pages is not a blog. Please, read the rules and provide the information according to Misplaced Pages regulations. There was a famine in USSR, and there is an article about Soviet famine of 1932–33 at Wiki. Holodomor was organized specifically in Ukraine, and can not be considered as "part" of USSR famine. The food was withdrawn by the orders from communists and population was blocked in the area they were leaving without being able to escape. --Andrux (talk) 17:12, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

It's completely unlogical. If Holodomor is only about Ukrainian SSR then you have to excluse any Cossacks of the RSFSR. But you insist to take them in, despite the fact that most of them were on the territory of the Russian SFSR. Also the arguing with their relationship to Holodomor because of their "Ukrainian" origin is complete non-sense, because the most of them (Don Cossacks, Ural Cossacks) had only a marginal "Ukrainian" connection. So far you are not able to draw clear limitations what was Holodomor and what was the rest of the Soviet famine. You even claim that there is no connection between Holodomor and the broader Soviet famine which is againt the common sense and has no proofs. --Shervinsky (talk) 17:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Clearly the famine affected Russians and other groups as well as Ukrainians, and this broader famine was caused by bad weather, collectivisation, food requisition, and travel bans, so to exclude from the article mention of people other than Ukrainians, or even Ukrainians and Cossacks, is to lose context. Some argue that within this horror, Ukrainians were particularly targeted as an ethnic group. Could be, but that is a matter for further discussion after this broader context is established. I agree with Shervinsky. cwmacdougall 1:55, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. There are many sources that convincingly show that Holodomor was a part of a broader Soviet famine, for example the famous book of Douglas Tottle. --Shervinsky (talk) 07:05, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Be careful, as discussed before, the infamous book by Tottle is pure Communist propaganda, not an academic work, and not remotely acceptable as a source. cwmacdougall 11:07, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks like, by describing Tottle's work favorably, Shervinsky has given himself away.Faustian (talk) 17:49, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Wishful thinking, boy. There are enough other sources that prove that. --Shervinsky (talk) 18:22, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Holodomor was part of general famine in Soviet Union in 1932-33

Articles of wikipedia should be based on reliable sources, preferable by secondary or tertiary in it's origin. So, such expert in Holodomor as Stanislav Kulchitsky, whom is "secondary sorce" in orgin, acts as tertiary sorce in his study of historiography of the issue. So, in his fundamental study of Holodomor he states (I repeat, as tertiary source): " В. Данилов и И. Зеленин опубликовали в журнале «Отечественная история» (2004, № 5) программную статью «Организованный голод. К 70-летию общекрестьянской трагедии». В ней остро осуждалась хлебозаготовительная политика Кремля, которая стала причиной рукотворного голода во многих регионах СССР. Однако историки не нашли в этой трагедии ни убедительных признаков геноцида, ни принципиальных различий между украинским и общесоюзным голодом... Советологи и русисты в странах Запада тоже рассматривают бOльшей частью украинский голод в контексте общесоюзного..." (Кульчицкий С. В. Можно ли отделить Голодомор в Украине от общесоюзного голода 1932–1933 годов? // Почему он нас уничтожал? Сталин и украинский голодомор. — 1-е. — Киев: Украинская пресс-группа, 2007. — 207 с. — ISBN 978-966-8152-11-5) (everybody on this page speak Russian, so translate in English (if needed) yourself and stop making sence, denaying simple for proving and understanding things). So, the mainsteam is that Holodomor was part of general famine. There are some other marginal theories about uniquity of holodomor, but wikipedia should not be tool for spreading marginal theories. HOBOPOCC (talk) 16:24, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Who are В. Данилов and И. Зеленин? I have read the publication of prof. Kulchitskii ((Кульчицкий С. В. Можно ли отделить Голодомор в Украине от общесоюзного голода 1932–1933 годов?), and he has not mentioned Holodomor as a "part" of other famines. There are no reliable sources supporting your hypothesis--Andrux (talk) 09:40, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

As Summary of his book Stanislav Kulchitsky wrote: Thus, the Soviet Union famine of 1932-1933 very easily separated from the Ukrainian Holodomor. Famine was observed almost everywhere, including, of course, and in Ukraine. But caused by the confiscation of all existing food, the Holodomor was special only for Ukraine. (Кульчицкий С. В. Можно ли отделить Голодомор в Украине от общесоюзного голода 1932–1933 годов? // Почему он нас уничтожал? Сталин и украинский голодомор. — 1-е. — Киев: Украинская пресс-группа, 2007. — 207 с. — ISBN 978-966-8152-11-5) Geohem (talk) 15:40, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

We need reliable sources, and usually Soviet history falls into the 'revisionist/alternate' history category so we have to be careful with what is included that hasn't been peer reviewed and vetted.--Львівське (говорити) 15:46, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

• Excuse me, but I do not understand your post above. Are you trying to categorize Kulchitsky's book, published in 2007, as «Soviet history», or do you want to say that topic of this wiki-article applys to «Soviet history» category and that's why we need to be very carefull with RS? Please clarify. HOBOPOCC (talk) 08:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion

I think we must somehow link the lede of the article to the Soviet famine of 1932–33. Hundreds of thousand (probably more than a million) died of hunger outside the Ukrainian-speaking areas at the Holodomor time. I, personally, quite happy with the clause that Holodomor was a part of the general famine, but I noticed that many people do not like it. AFAIK, there are two reasons (correct me if I wrong):

1. Stating that Holodomor is a part of something bigger may look like trivializing of the tragedy;
2. It contradicts the theory that Holodomor was mainly an ethnic genocide of Ukrainians. The rest of the victims died because of class and social policies of Soviet Government, not the ethnic policies.

I have noticed that in all the estimations of the numbers of victims there we have separation between the whole of the Soviet Union and Ukraine the number of victims in Ukraine varies from a half to two thirds of the total. So, can we say instead of Holodomor being a part of the general famine, that the number of victims of Holodomor constitutes the majority of the death from the Soviet famine of 1932–33. This statement gives a relative scale of the two events. It provides the reference to the general famine but does not imply that they have the same causes, etc. Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

This seems like a fine suggestion. I do think however that Cossacks should be mentioned in the article as well, since (a) the Holodomor hit Kuban and Don area very hard, cf. Robert Conquest's studies, (b) like Ukrainians, Cossacks refer to the famine in their lands as the Holodomor (while other ethnic groups, e.g., Russians, don't even accept the term Holodomor), and (c) it is clear that the Cossacks -- who formed the core of the White Army as well as independent from Russia republics in 1918-1920 -- were targeted as enemies of the Bolshevik State in what Stalin called a "war of holodomor" (in Russian, "война на измор"). Ukrainians and Cossacks are related to each other through a tight historical and blood bond.173.76.253.77 (talk) 05:14, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Alex Bakharev, I have no objections for such a suggestion.--Andrux (talk) 10:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Cossacks are a class, not an ethnic group, though the ones in the Kuban would likely fall into the Ukrainian category. They were targeted in the same manner as kulaks were. There's a reason Ukrainian national anthem says "we are of the cossack nation" --Львівське (говорити) 05:38,29 November 2013 (UTC)

In view of many people, Cossacks are an ethnicity, just like Ruthenians. The amalgamation of Ruthenians and Cossacks created the Ukrainian nation and the Ukrainian ethnicity. (The name Ukraine is old, but the concept of the Ukrainian ethnicity/identity is rather young; the Cossack and Ruthenian identity predate the Ukrainian identity). Russia's 2002 and 2010 censuses list Cossacks as an ethnic group (a subethnic group, to be more precise). In 1918 Cossacks formed independent states -- the Don Republic and the Kuban's People Republic -- and there were plans to make a federation of three republics – together with the Ukrainian State. Denikin destroyed these plans. The constitution of the Don Republic listed Cossacks as a major ethnic group of the republic. The Kuban Cossacks are tightly connected to Dnieper Ukraine, while Don Cossacks are tightly connected to the Eastern Ukraine (the area around Donets river). In 1708 Peter the 1st of Russia, also known as Peter the Crazy, waged a war against Kondraty Bulavin and destroyed the eastern part of the Don Cossack Host in the Eastern Ukraine, annihilating over 30 townlets (stanitsas).173.76.253.77 (talk) 06:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Ruthenian is just another word for Ukrainian. Cossacks were Ruthenians, and then Ukrainians. The Russian census is a different matter, as Russian cossacks have virtually always identified as Russians. They are cossack by class, and those who still follow the cossack traditions choose to check off 'cossack' as 'nationality' on the census as a matter of pride. You could say that sub-groups of cossacks form their own sub-ethnic groups, like Kuban Cossacks being their own thing with their own dialect/language, traditions, etc., but cossacks on the whole are not an ethnic group in of themselves.--Львівське (говорити) 16:56, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

I suppose I will respectfully disagree on the equivalence of the terms Ruthenian and Ukrainian. There is no such thing as Russian Cossacks-- there are Kuban Cossacks, Don Cossacks, Ural Cossackcs, etc. all sharing a unique common culture. Cossacks -- the descendands of Cossacks -- do not identify themselves as Russians. The "checking off" as "nationality" is not a matter of pride, it is about the truth. You can perhaps read this http://kazaki-narod.jimdo.com/, which is a petition to the President of the Russian Federation regarding the census. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.253.77 (talk) 18:23, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Well the term Ukrainian supplanted 'Ruthene' in the 20th century, most but not all adopted the new nomenclature. It's literally a synonym...I don't know what else to tell you. As for cossacks, Kuban, Don, Ural, etc. are geographic indicators, but each host has it's own ways. Yes they share a common culture, but that's just as any military family shares a common culture, for example. Further, cossacks do self identify as Russian...just as Ukrainian cossacks in Ukraine identify as Ukrainians. I don't know how to go further than that. Regarding the census, Russians also checked off 'Siberian' instead of Russian, so there's that. I read the link and in my opinion this appears to be a recent phenomenon as there's been a bit of a cossack revival of sorts in post-Soviet Russia. While what you say is illustrated here exactly as you said...that doesn't necessarily carry over to cossacks in the 1930s in Ukraine and the Kuban, we would have to find a historical text to confirm self determination apart from Ukrainian/Ruthenians in this period. Especially since it's only a few years after the revolution (with their monarchy falling and repressions beginning, they could be galvanized as separate from Russians more so today than in the 30s) --Львівське (говорити) 00:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

About «Cossacks». Let me remind you, that articles of wikipedia should be created based on RS. So, if anybody would present any RS on Holodomor, saying that «Cossacks» were among victims of Holodomor — why not to mention them in the wiki-article? But not before that.HOBOPOCC (talk) 08:51, 29

You obviously have zero familiarity with RS on the Famine.

There are thousands of documents like this http://www.bibliotekar.ru/golodomor/33.htm and www.slavakubani.ru/read.php?id=1453 that portray the Famine in stanitsas across Kuban and Don regions. 173.76.253.77 (talk) 16:51, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Will you be so kind not to discuss my skills (WP:PERSONAL)? As about so called «RS» you gave above — text on http://www.bibliotekar.ru/golodomor/33.htm doesn't have any mentions of «Cossacks», same thing about the second link you provided — www.slavakubani.ru/read.php?id=1453 And you know what? — I'm not surprised, as history of cossacs finished long before 1932 — immediatly after Civil War in Russia bolshevists evaporated all cossacks. You should read this article — ru:Расказачивание. There is, surely, similar article in English — Decossackization, but it's not so reliable by facts and far behind it's Russian sister by it's content. HOBOPOCC (talk) 20:14, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

You have not read the links I have sent you, haven't you. The articles do mention both Cossacks and stanitsas (Cossacks lived in stanitsas, organized in yurts, headed by elected atamans, and non-Cossacks lived in villages (selo, derevnya), organized in volosti, headed by starostas. This is a rather relevant detail, no?). The links I posted mention the citizens of stanitsas, not selas or derevnyas, starved to death. The majority of those citizens were Cossacks. Regarding the history of Cossacks being finished 1932, how do you explain http://ru.wikisource.org/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%A6%D0%98%D0%9A_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0_%D0%BE%D1%82_20.04.1936_%D0%BE_%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8F%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D1%81_%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%87%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%BE_%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B1%D0%B5_%D0%B2_%D0%A0%D0%9A%D0%9A%D0%90 , which is a 1936 decree of the Soviet government lifting the ban on the service of the Cossacks in the Red Army. And how do you explain that more than 100 Cossack regiments in the Red Army were formed during the World War II? And thank you very much for pointing me to "Decossackization" and "Raskazachivanie" articles. Incidentally, I have contributed to both articles at various points in time.173.76.253.77 (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

* In this case it will be a kind of original research. Geohem (talk) 10:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• I gave you a quotes of top-ranked ukrainian historian of Holodomor Stanislav Kul'chitsky, who wrote (you here everybody speaks Russian, so you understand what he wrote, but if you by some reasons can't read my cyrillic alphabit above (AGF, AGF) — I'm happy to translate it for you into English); «russian (in the name of top scholars Zelenin and Danilov) and western scholars threat ukrainian famine as part of general soviet famine of the time». This is statement of the person, who's name mentioned 16 (!!!) times in the wiki-article! And you started war edits against this statement! This is tertiary RS by it's nature and should be added to the wiki article without any doubts. HOBOPOCC (talk) 08:48, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

* Just distortion of a meaning. And in this book he wrote: Thus, the Soviet Union famine of 1932-1933 very easily separated from the Ukrainian Holodomor. Famine was observed almost everywhere, including, of course, and in Ukraine. But caused by the confiscation of all existing food, the Holodomor was special only for Ukraine. Geohem (talk) 10:33, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

HOBOPOCC, this is just one sentence taken by you without paying an attention to the conclusion part as cited by Geohem. Moreover, there are other references (e.g. this one) published in peer-review journals in English, suggesting Holodomor as separate from other famines event.--Andrux (talk) 10:59, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

* Stanislav Kulchitsky has his own valid oppinion. And this oppinion is that famine in Ukraine was differ to general famine in USSR of that year. And this is oppinion of respectfull scholar, i.e. «secondary sorce» in local terms. When scholar Stanislav Kulchitsky gave his review on historiography of Holodomor, he acts as «tertiary source». This is the difference between these two statements of Kulchitsky. His personal point of view may be added to the wiki-article with proper attribution (NPOV). Information, which is taken from reliable tertiary source must to be added to the wiki-article. And if we trust Kulchitsky on Holodomor issue - and we do trust him, as his works are used even in the artice — intentions to reject his review on historiography of Holodomor are not fair. HOBOPOCC (talk) 15:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

• I'm glad that no any further objections to my proposal to add statements of Stanislav Kul'chitsky on current historiography of Holodomor, which is tertiary source in it's origin, should be added to wiki-article without any doubts. My proposed adding is here in bold: «The Holodomor... was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian SSR in 1932 and 1933...and a part of a general Soviet famine of 1932–33.<ref>Кульчицкий С. В. Можно ли отделить Голодомор в Украине от общесоюзного голода 1932–1933 годов? // Почему он нас уничтожал? Сталин и украинский голодомор. — 1-е. — Киев: Украинская пресс-группа, 2007. — 207 с. — ISBN 978-966-8152-11-5</ref>»HOBOPOCC (talk) 10:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Such statement is incorrect. It is not in agreement with the summary of prof. Kulchitskiy review work: Thus, the Soviet Union famine of 1932-1933 very easily separated from the Ukrainian Holodomor. Famine was observed almost everywhere, including, of course, and in Ukraine. But caused by the confiscation of all existing food, the Holodomor was special only for Ukraine. There are other sources to support the uniqueness of Holodomor, as compared to feline in USSR, please see the discussion above.--Andrux (talk) 11:29, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You are doing WP:NOTPOINTy now. I already explained why and how personal point of view of professor Kulchitsky («secondary sorce») to be separated from review of professor Kulchitsky on historyography of Holodomor («tertiary source»). And I gave you direct citacion of professor Kulchitsky: «...историки не нашли в этой трагедии ни убедительных признаков геноцида, ни принципиальных различий между украинским и общесоюзным голодом... Советологи и русисты в странах Запада тоже рассматривают бOльшей частью украинский голод в контексте общесоюзного» and I make translation of the text for our non-Russian speaking editors: «...historians (of Russian school Kulchitsky ment) didn't find in this tragedy convincing signs of genocide, as well as basic distinctions between the Ukrainian and general soviet hunger... bigger part of ovietologists and russists in the West alsow consider the Ukrainian famine in a context of the all-union famine...». Yes, professor Kul'chitsky personelly disagree with such position of world scholars, but he honestly declare present scientific approach to the Holodomor, even it's not according to his theory. If you denay such simple for understanding fact — I have nothing to do, but to rise this discussion to higher level. HOBOPOCC (talk) 11:56, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Kulchitsky didn't write about "Russian school". He has written about two of them: Danilov's and Zelin's point of view. By the way other researcher Kondrashyn has written that in the West and in Ukraine consider the Holodomor as an exclusively Ukrainian phenomenon <ref>http://www.idd.mid.ru/inf/inf_05.html</ref>. Geohem (talk) 13:27, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You are providing wrong information about professor Kondrashyn. He declares that there are two schools in Ukrainian and Western scholarship - one traditional - that famine in Ukraine is part of general soviet man-made famine and another alternative school - declaring that Ukrainian famine was an unique one. His opinion doesn't make any conflict with review of professor Kulchitsky, as Kulchitsky says that bigger part of Western scholars stays on the grounds that Ukrainian famine is part of general soviet famine. HOBOPOCC (talk) 13:38, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Where does Kulchytsky state that the majority of western scholars support the Soviet view?--Львівське (говорити) 17:10, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know anything about «Soviet view» and Kulchitsky's view on it (такой вот каламбур получился). I think you mix up «russian view» and «soviet view». Soviet view on everything was over in 1991, Soviet system does not exist from that time, lucky we are. And what Kulchitsky actualy said in his book of 2007, I posted on this page already three times and now I make it for forth time and speciall for you: "...В. Данилов и И. Зеленин опубликовали в журнале «Отечественная история» (2004, № 5) программную статью «Организованный голод. К 70-летию общекрестьянской трагедии». В ней остро осуждалась хлебозаготовительная политика Кремля, которая стала причиной рукотворного голода во многих регионах СССР. Однако историки не нашли в этой трагедии ни убедительных признаков геноцида, ни принципиальных различий между украинским и общесоюзным голодом... Советологи и русисты в странах Запада тоже рассматривают бOльшей частью украинский голод в контексте общесоюзного..." (Кульчицкий С. В. Можно ли отделить Голодомор в Украине от общесоюзного голода 1932–1933 годов? // Почему он нас уничтожал? Сталин и украинский голодомор. — 1-е. — Киев: Украинская пресс-группа, 2007. — 207 с. — ISBN 978-966-8152-11-5) HOBOPOCC (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Contrary to the suggestion of 173.76.253.77 (why not register like most of us?), I don't think you can say 'Stalin called a "war of holodomor"' That is not really a good translation of the Russian, "война на измор". cwmacdougall 11:57, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you could give a better translation? The word "izmor" has a very clear message, which is to kill by hunger. Too bad "izmor" is not a common English word, but perhaps it would be on day, like Holodomor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.76.253.77 (talk) 16:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

How about "War of attrition"? "izmor" is usually translated as "attrition", which is different, plus "Holodomor" has a host of connotations, at least now; Stalin didn't call it that. cwmacdougall 2:49, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Why not simply translate it literally? It doesn't have to be confined to predefined idiomatic jargon. It means "War of starvation" or "War by starvation". Rhetoric such as, "Enemy of the people" et al didn't mean anything in the English language until its usage became familiar within the context in which it was intended. Keep it succinct. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:17, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

figures

I reverted the figure range and some of the text int the intro back to about a year ago, which I think was the consensus variation from when we had the cabal and mediation problems. Hope there's no issue? Haven't stayed up to date really since then, but I thought we had a pretty stable intro for a while. Obviously right now some POV pushers with new accounts are trying to war on the page without using the talk...--Львівське (говорити) 15:43, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

I do not think it was ever good. The issue obviously attracts political controversy, but the article should explain what happened, rather than be a tug of war between two points of view. TFD (talk) 06:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Explain what happened regarding which point? A lot is obviously covered in the body, the intro is...just an intro and should summarize.--Львівське (говорити) 17:01, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

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