Talk:Koch network: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 01:35, 7 December 2013 editMojoworker (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers14,274 edits →OpenSecrets: moot← Previous edit		Revision as of 02:31, 7 December 2013 edit undoArthur Rubin (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers130,168 edits →OpenSecrets: oops, correct pointNext edit →
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	::::'''Insert''' That was off point. The opensecrets blog post that we are discussing is ''not'' their well-respected FEC database. It is opinion or analysis. The ref'd post talks about $274 million in "dark money" political spending (undefined) and asserts that "Koch linked" (undefined) spending was one fourth of that spending. That ignores the billion plus union "dark money" spending entirely. Why? We don't know. The blog post doesn't explain or address it. It is an opinion, an advocacy piece. This particular CRP ref is only reliable source for it's opinion. Further, the fact that "dark money" can not be defined makes this an invalid, inappropriate and controversial addition. ] (]) 19:08, 6 December 2013 (UTC)		::::'''Insert''' That was off point. The opensecrets blog post that we are discussing is ''not'' their well-respected FEC database. It is opinion or analysis. The ref'd post talks about $274 million in "dark money" political spending (undefined) and asserts that "Koch linked" (undefined) spending was one fourth of that spending. That ignores the billion plus union "dark money" spending entirely. Why? We don't know. The blog post doesn't explain or address it. It is an opinion, an advocacy piece. This particular CRP ref is only reliable source for it's opinion. Further, the fact that "dark money" can not be defined makes this an invalid, inappropriate and controversial addition. ] (]) 19:08, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::::It's really a moot point – that text is also cited to a secondary source, the ''Kansas city Star''. We could also add some of the other refs that ] enumerates below – even without the ref to the CRP webpage, the sentence is still properly cited. ] (]) 01:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)		:::::It's really a moot point – that text is also cited to a secondary source, the ''Kansas city Star''. We could also add some of the other refs that ] enumerates below – even without the ref to the CRP webpage, the sentence is still properly cited. ] (]) 01:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
			::::::Hmmm. No, the KC Star quotes the OpenSecrets blog entry. It's not a secondary source for validity, only for notability. However, "Dark money" is defined, and ''we'' don't know how much union money was dark in 2012. OpenSecrets didn't report that information, for some reason. (I'm shocked.) (And, none of this relates to the TPm, as it cannot engage in lobbying or political contributions.) — ] ] 02:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
	:::The key here is that this article is about the brothers political activities. This article already is a magnet for ] issues, this is another good example. ] (]) 05:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)		:::The key here is that this article is about the brothers political activities. This article already is a magnet for ] issues, this is another good example. ] (]) 05:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
	::::The brothers perform their political activities through groups that they fund, therefore these groups are relevant to the article. ] (]) 06:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)		::::The brothers perform their political activities through groups that they fund, therefore these groups are relevant to the article. ] (]) 06:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 30 January 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was no consensus.

DonorsTrust

I don't see the relevance of the chain of "donations" noted, even if they were adequately sourced:

Charles Koch (now) chairs the "Knowledge and Progress Fund". (probably )
The "Knowledge and Progress Fund" has "given more than $3.2 million in recent years to DonorsTrust".
DonorsTrust gave nearly $7.7 million to the Americans for Prosperity Foundation in 2010. (blog entry hosted at Forbes)
(not in this article) David Koch chairman of AfPF.

and the unsourced: "DonorsTrust provides funding to a variety of conservative political advocacy groups and groups that support climate change denial. "

I don't see how any combination of these statements is helpful for this article, even if there isn't an implied synthesis in combining facts to create a connection. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The climate change denial connection I would agree is tenuous and synthesized. The Donors Trust connection is neither, given that we have multiple sources which connect it as an indirect beneficiary of Koch funds. Mangoe (talk) 18:58, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

The content is relevant in that it relates to well documented funding of climate change deniers by the Koch brothers, via various shell organizations that they use to distance themselves from the stink. Forbes (blog or otherwise) is certainly a reliable source for this, and the author of that article makes the connection, so synthesis is not required by us. The other source, corroborates the Koch contributions to DonorsTrust, mentioning that they are DonorTrust's largest contributor

This article is about the Koch brothers using their massive financial resources to manipulate the political landscape in the US. It's not a new story, but it is one that is rife with new revelations, some of which we must include in this article to portray the subject in a complete and objective manner. - Mr X 19:00, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm retracting my above comments. On closer reading of the sources, there is not a connection established between Koch contributions and climate change denial, which would in fact make this content original research. - Mr X 19:35, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

My mistake above; we do have a source (cited in the DonorsTrust article) for the association of that organization with climate change denial. However, a Koch chairing (but not necessarily funding) the "Knowledge and Progress Fund" which donates to DonorsTrust which donates to AfPF (which is also chaired by a Koch) does not create a connection between the Kochs and climate change, and only minimally connects the Kochs to DonorsTrust. There may be other connections between the Kochs and DonorsTrust, but I don't see what we have here as adequate, unless we establish that either K&PF is a major funder of DonorsTrust or DonorsTrust is a major funder of AfPF. That it is a major funder needs to be established by a single source, not separate sources for the amount that A funds B and for the total funding of B (or total donations of A). — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:35, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I also want to assert I have no idea who may have posted as 97.182.165.176 (talk · contribs); I'm not sure the entire paragraph should have been deleted, but I'm not going to violate 3RR by deleting and restoring the same material.... — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:40, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Public Television

I fail to understand how this fits in this article. This article is about the political activities of the Koch brothers. There is no political activity mentioned in this section. They take no action at all. PBS executives, apparently protective of their donors, make calls to a vendor. Thats the only activity. No activity from the Kochs at all. Perhaps this could be in the relevant BLP.Capitalismojo (talk) 12:32, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree -- that section was POV and argumentative entirely, and not related to the topic of the article. Collect (talk) 12:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I would actually add this section to PBS or New York Public Television articles. They are the active players in this section.Capitalismojo (talk) 13:58, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Possibly -- but not in this article. I would also note that since Mayer already has a section in this article, that adding more sections for her specific opinions is UNDUE per WP:BLP as well. Collect (talk) 15:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I've restored some of the removed content, as it seem very relevant to the subject and adequately sourced. The Mayer material is not really the same as in the criticism section (which really should not be a separate section). I would note that this article is not so narrow in scope that we should take a literal approach of every word being an "activity." To do so would be fairly absurd and unfair to our readers who would benefit from appropriate context. - Mr X 17:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This article is very heavily reliant on the one author, hence UNDUE hits hard. Would you have us reprint her entire article? Collect (talk) 18:03, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Much of the Koch articles should be moved to "Meyer's opinions about the Kochs" and removed from the main articles. That being said, this section is not duplicative, but should possibly be moved to the Meyers subsection. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The Koch Brothers' contributions to PBS are charitable rather than political activities. That should be clear from the programs they have supported. Even if they opposed a documentary about themselves, that cannot be seen as a political act. TFD (talk) 18:21, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

I see no reason to include the PBS text in this article. Let's be clear. Some nonprofits may change their activities to avoid losing key donors. Some donors might contribute to some nonprofits for that reason, so it is a possibility for any donor or any nonprofit. But clearly, there is no RS which states that this has occurred or that it is the Kochs' intention. The inclusion of this material in the current article is massive SYNTH and should be removed from the article. SPECIFICO talk 14:35, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Anthropogenic references?

At this diff reverting of removal of unsourced adjective "anthropogenic." I can guess what that means, but I'm sure most people cannot and I didn't see any source in the whole section explaining it, not to mentioning saying that the Koch's themselves supported it. Even Willie Soon's article only mentions the word once in the publications list, so who would even know if he uses it? Let's put up a section tag for additional references til someone finds one. Thanks. CarolMooreDC - talk to me🗽 02:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Freedom Partners

So there is a new attempt to try and attack the Koch Brothers. However, none of the articles tied to the Freedom Partners states that the Koch Brothers are directly involved with Freedom Partners. I realize that there are ongoing attempts to try and make the Koch Brothers look like bogymen, but these guilt by association attacks are not appropriate for WP. Furthermore, just because some clearly biased journalist are trying to link the Brothers directly to the group does not mean that they are. Arzel (talk) 14:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Alleged editor's motive aside, the Koch's fund and influence the Freedom Partners. In fact, they even disclosed it. You may want to read the source articles to better understand how the political activities of the Koch brothers include their involvement with this organization, and the research done by Politico et al that connects Koch's "dark money" with FP. I don't understand why one would assume that the Koch's being involved with Freedom Partners is necessarily a negative. Check out their website freedompartners.org. - Mr X 15:33, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I did read the articles, none make a direct link between the Koch Brothers. They certainly try to make the link with the Political article implying a nefarious action by the Koch's. Without some RS's that actually state with some evidence that they are actively directing this group, it is out of scope for this article. This article is about their activities, not the activities that others claim that they are linked. Arzel (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

"...none make a direct link between the Koch Brothers." I'm sorry, but that's absurd. See the quotes below.

There is no WP:DIRECTINVOLVEMENT policy that supports idea that the Koch's funding of political organizations via another organization is outside of the scope of an article about Political activities of the Koch brothers. Here are some direct quotes from our sources:

- Mr X 22:15, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

The Koch Industries website has a page about Freedom Partners. Reliable sources say that it is funded by the Koch brothers and supports U.S. conservative causes. I do not see anything wrong with mentioning their involvement. TFD (talk) 22:18, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

From the Political article. "Koch-linked entities provided a “minority” of the funds and that the largest single donor gave about $25 million." The fact is that the donors are private. I realize that several liberal outlets are trying to make the link and trying to make it as nefarious as possible at the same time. If it truly is a political activity of the Koch's than simply find a source that WP:V's it. As such, all it is, are allegations that it is funded by the brothers. Without WP:V, a cornerstone of WP there is no way to include it as is. Additionally, the section is written about what Freedom Partners has done and is written like a WP:COAT. Arzel (talk) 22:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Arzel, none of your comments has any bearing on whether or not the edit is accurate and should be included. TFD (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The material is well-cited, relevant, and appropriate. Arjuna (talk) 01:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

So you both agree that WP:V does not matter for this. Arzel (talk) 15:36, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Problem with the term "Dark Money"

I got reverted for using the term Dark money. Is there a more precise term to describe this? Hcobb (talk) 16:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

No, this is the correct term. MilesMoney (talk) 23:56, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

The dark money article says it is a slang term. See WP:SLANG. And the article itself is POV laden. The scare quotes only makes the POV problem worse. Maybe correct in some people's opinion, but that is not how we write WP articles. – S. Rich (talk) 02:05, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

According to our article, Center for Responsive Politics which runs the website is nonpartisan and independent. Looks like they're mostly reporting numerical facts about campaign spending - see for example. What specifically do you find POV in the article? If there's objection to the term "dark money" I suggest we reword the sentence to read: "At least one fourth of the contributions in the 2012 election campaign that were unreported until after the election, were made by groups associated with the Koch brothers", or something along those lines. Mojoworker (talk) 23:00, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

It's the term Dark money that is the problem. The article goes beyond defining the term as slang and includes statements like "Yet despite disclosure rules...", "a ... court ruled that all groups spending money.... However, this ruling was overturned on appeal." "Theory of Required Disclosure". etc. Such information belongs in campaign finance and political finance. And once that is properly done, then this article can benefit from using the terms. But slang is not acceptable. – S. Rich (talk) 23:20, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Isn't the correct term "soft money?" TFD (talk) 04:33, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, the source says "dark", but WP does not use slang. Given that "dark money" has so much POV built in, we should stay away from this source; otherwise, we are misquoting the source. But, there must be other, quality sources that lay out how much cash they've bestowed on arts, medicine, education, and, oh yes, politics. Indeed, would we use the term "dark money" to describe their non-political donations? I don't think so. – S. Rich (talk) 04:43, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

We are not "misquoting the source" – WP:COPY requires us to reformulate what the source says, in our own words. Slang or otherwise, "dark money" is a commonly used explicable term – and no, it doesn't include any of the philanthropy you enumerated, it refers to electioneering. I've changed the article to paraphrase the source without using the term "dark money", and anyone is free to improve upon it. If you want to contest the source, WP:RSN is thataway. Mojoworker (talk) 08:23, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

We have to be careful here. Is dark money the same thing as soft money? MilesMoney (talk) 08:31, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

No, they are not the same thing. Soft money describes contributions made to political parties for "party building" activities. Mojoworker (talk) 10:07, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

I realize that the Koch's make a good target for the left, but it gets a little tiring to see people continuously attack them here. I would remind you both that this article is about the Koch brothers. Not about what some other groups that have some links to them do. Arzel (talk) 15:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

If your "you both" comment was directed at me, I take offense at you characterizing me as part of "the left" – if you were to examine my voting history you'd see that's far from the case. I'm not "attacking" the Kochs or anyone else – just trying to address the objections by some editors to the use of the term "dark money". Mojoworker (talk) 19:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Soft money was unlimited "nonfederal money" from corporations, unions, and individuals that they could contribute to political parties for activities intended to influence state or local elections. Dark money is an epitath and new slang. Capitalismojo (talk) 15:50, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Another minor aspect of the sourcing problem stems from the fact that it is an OpenSecretsblog comment. Yes, Maguire is an investigator with Center for Responsive Politics, but is he giving us news or analysis? – S. Rich (talk) 19:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Probably analysis. Capitalismojo (talk) 19:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Can we be at all sure that it's not commentary? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:11, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Arthur, this article mentions the Tea Party directly. You're under a topic ban. MilesMoney (talk) 04:38, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This article is not in the tea party portal. By that definition, you have been editing a lot of LVM articles. Arzel (talk) 05:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Arthur is banned from the topic, broadly construed. I'm banned from a single article, which I haven't so much as glanced at. Arzel, you are entirely mistaken and not at all helpful. Please mind your business. MilesMoney (talk) 06:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

You mean kind of like your little snipe on my talk page? You should read up on WP:POT. Arzel (talk) 14:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Back on topic, this edit is clearly against consensus and must be reverted. MilesMoney (talk) 06:15, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

OpenSecrets

I don't see this as a minor issue either. I suggest that the Center for Responsive Politics, an advocacy organization receiving significant funding from George Soros, may not be a RS for characterization of lawful non-profit contributions of their political opponents. I find it interesting that they characterize the non-published contributions of private individuals, companies, groups, and foundations as "dark money". CRP says in the ref that an astounding $274 million was spent in this "dark money" anonymous contribution system in 2012 and that 25% had "ties" (undefined) to the Kochs. Somehow this entirely ignores the anonymous political spending by unions which was many times that number. According to well-publicized news reports, spending by merely the AFL-CIO headquarters and its affiliated unions climbed to $608 million in the 2009 and 2010 election season from $452 million in 2005 and 2006. They spent $316 million in 2011, a nonelection year, amid the fight with Mr. Walker in Wisconsin. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:01, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about? "Dark money" is money coming from interest groups that are not required to disclose their donors to the public. OpenSecrets clearly mentions labor unions here in this intro. There is a page at the site called "Top Interest Groups Giving to Members of Congress, 2014 Cycle" which clearly shows contributions to Democrats, and when you look down the list you can see Public Sector Unions at #17. The purpose of OpenSecrets is disclosure of money in politics and I have no problem using them as a source. Regarding the Koch's, the source that was reverted here states, "In 2012, more than a third of the record-setting haul brought in by the Koch's flagship nonprofit, Americans for Prosperity -- $115 million -- came from three dark money groups tied to the Kochs that did nothing but give out checks: the Center to Protect Patient Rights (CPPR), Freedom Partners, and TC4 Trust. CPPR's tax filing was first leaked to the Daily Caller." ---- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 21:41, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Insert That was off point. The opensecrets blog post that we are discussing is not their well-respected FEC database. It is opinion or analysis. The ref'd post talks about $274 million in "dark money" political spending (undefined) and asserts that "Koch linked" (undefined) spending was one fourth of that spending. That ignores the billion plus union "dark money" spending entirely. Why? We don't know. The blog post doesn't explain or address it. It is an opinion, an advocacy piece. This particular CRP ref is only reliable source for it's opinion. Further, the fact that "dark money" can not be defined makes this an invalid, inappropriate and controversial addition. Capitalismojo (talk) 19:08, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

It's really a moot point – that text is also cited to a secondary source, the Kansas city Star. We could also add some of the other refs that User:MrX enumerates below – even without the ref to the CRP webpage, the sentence is still properly cited. Mojoworker (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm. No, the KC Star quotes the OpenSecrets blog entry. It's not a secondary source for validity, only for notability. However, "Dark money" is defined, and we don't know how much union money was dark in 2012. OpenSecrets didn't report that information, for some reason. (I'm shocked.) (And, none of this relates to the TPm, as it cannot engage in lobbying or political contributions.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The key here is that this article is about the brothers political activities. This article already is a magnet for WP:COAT issues, this is another good example. Arzel (talk) 05:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The brothers perform their political activities through groups that they fund, therefore these groups are relevant to the article. MilesMoney (talk) 06:17, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages, not Get-the-Koch-Brothers-pedia. Let others (like Rachel Maddow) perform their own research about the connections; then, if they are RS, and not pushing POV, and actually say "Koch wrote a check to the Tea Party" we can add it to the project. – S. Rich (talk) 06:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Since my comment was not about the Tea Party, you appear to be barking up the wrong tree. MilesMoney (talk) 06:36, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Woof, woof! – S. Rich (talk) 06:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

We're talking about this article, not any others. The issue here is the dark money stuff that Arzel just gutted. MilesMoney (talk) 06:56, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

So far, I have heard no policy based reasons for omitting this content. We have primary and secondary sources that have researched and reported on dark money funding by the Koch Brothers through a web of organizations that they fund and/or control, for political purposes. Arzel's and S. Rich's arguments against inclusion are not at all convincing and can be summed up as: "it makes the Koch's look bad". By the way, WP:COAT is not a policy or a guideline, nor is it relevant to this content discussion.

Capitalismojo's argument merits some consideration. The Center for Responsive Politics could be considered a primary source but, as Somedifferentstuff rebutted, they present information about political contribution irrespective of party. A discussion about union contributions is interesting and important in general, but has nothing to do with the subject this article.- Mr X 13:40, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I thought is was pretty clear. That section makes a bunch of allegations about groups linked to the Koch brothers. However, it does not state that this is a political activity of the Koch brothers. It would be far easier to accept these edits as good faith if the same actors were so zelous about attacking their commrades on the left. Arzel (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

"OpenSecrets determined that the Kochs are outpacing all other groups in giving to so-called “dark money” groups that aren’t required to disclose their donors. In fact, at least one in every four dark-money dollars had links to the Kochs who control the Wichita-based Koch Industries, the country’s second-largest privately own company.Source: Kansas City Star
"The Koch brothers poured $301 million into politically-active groups in 2012, according to a report from the Center for Responsive Politics." Source: The Hill
"The CPPR, run by former congressional aide Sean Noble, was recently called a part of the "Koch Brothers' Network" of dark money organizations by California's campaign finance watchdog agency." Source: Talking Points Memo
"A slew of reports released Wednesday reveal that a network of conservative think tanks, funded by multinational corporations and industrialists — most notably Charles and David Koch — comprise a vast dark-money campaign funding mechanism that funnels cash to conservative candidates, including Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker in last year’s recall election."Source: The Capital Times
"The CMD report also cites numerous SPN ties to the better-known ALEC, including a grant from Donors Capital Fund, which Mother Jones called the “dark money ATM of the conservative movement,”... According to CMD, SPN’s annual meeting in September included representatives from Koch Industries, the Charles Koch Institute, the Charles Koch Foundation and several Koch-backed right-wing groups like Americans for Prosperity." Source: Salon

As I've pointed out to you before, there is no WP:DIRECTINVOLVEMENT policy that supports idea that the Koch's funding of political organizations via another organization is outside of the scope of an article about Political activities of the Koch brothers. - Mr X 16:01, 6 December 2013 (UTC), 18:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Full protection

I've fully protected the article for 4 days to encourage people to discuss the issues on this talk page rather than edit/revert the article. If there is a consensus in that time, please use {{editprotected}} to request that an admin make the edit for. Admins: I have no objection to you changing the protection at your discretion. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:49, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

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