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10 December 2013

2013 Saltsjöbanan train crash

2013 Saltsjöbanan train crash (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

as this is an event (crash), none of the keep !voters addressed concerns or provided any real evidence of WP:PERSISTENT coverage. 2 keep !voters cited an unreleased report as evidence of persistent coverage. yet an unreleased report is not actually evidence. LibStar (talk) 23:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse The discussion was almost entirely based on the notability guidelines and, having considered them, people are entitled to take a view of whether an article is warranted. An AfD notability discussion is not like a game of whist – comments like "WP:EVENT trumps WP:GNG" do not represent guidelines or policy and neither is there a policy that "Libstar trumps other cards". There was no agreement on whether the topic meets the guidelines or on whether the article should be deleted. Thincat (talk) 08:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse I could have understood (even if not approved) a delrev for a keep closure, but it was clear there was no consensus in the discussion, and arguments as WP:PERSISTENT can't be properly assessed given the time frame. LibStar being very anxious to erase the encyclopedia piecemeal is not a deletion rationale either. --cyclopia 10:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

your use of WP:NOTHERE is quite an accusation of an experienced editor. LibStar (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse - Clearly no consensus in the discussion. Correct closure. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Henry Earl

Henry Earl (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I don't feel the closing administrator properly understood the consensus here. Both votes on each side were policy-based, with the deleters believing it a BLP violation and a one event, while the keepers feeling it was a GNG pass and the fact that coverage wasn't based on a single event makes him ineligible for BLP1E. I feel at the very least this should've been a relist. Consensus to me didn't look especially clear on either side. Beerest 2 talk 20:31, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Note while it is a bluelink, the article is not restored - instead it is now a redirect to Henry Earle with the history erased. Beerest 2 talk 20:32, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• The closer didn't specify BLP1E (which is what most of the delete !votes were based upon) but rather the (accurate) notion that just because a topic meets the GNG doesn't mean we need to have an article on it. I'd claim however that A) that argument didn't have consensus at all and B) such an IAR closing should have an especially strong consensus. The BLP1E arguments were misguided at best in any case as is stretches the defintion of event to the point of breaking to have it go over a period of decades. Overturn to no consensus as that discussion had none and there was no argument strong enough to justify deletion. Hobit (talk) 21:23, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Comment from closing admin: I'm always happy to relist a debate if there is very little participation or the consensus is unclear, but in this case I felt there was sufficient participation and a clear enough consensus to warrant a close after the standard 7 days. 28bytes (talk) 21:28, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - OK, obviously I am biased here, but seriously, people are getting desperate to keep what amounts to little more than an "OMG THIS GUY IS BAD" page. BLP1E is perfectly valid, when the vast majority of coverage was routine arrest reports. 15 votes for delete, 9 for keep (discounting the two extra that were clearly the same person) isn't a clear consensus, but it is definitely weighted towards delete. And topics that meet GNG but fail BLP1E are routinely deleted. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:09, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Maybe I'm too literal, but I'm not seeing a single event here. It is a series of things spread out over decades. It's a single "claim" but so too is "baseball player" or some such. I'm not clear how this meets BLP1E but a baseball player doesn't. (I do get that this is a negative BLP and I can see why that matters, but I don't see how it makes BLP1E expand to such a broad thing, though IAR could make good sense here.) Further, the closer didn't cite BLP1E, so I don't see how that is relevant... Hobit (talk) 22:14, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Uh, Hobit, what part of "I'm therefore convinced that deletion is compatible with both WP:BLP1E and WP:GNG." and "I'm persuaded by the arguments that WP:BLP1E applies to this article." isn't BLP1E being cited by the closer? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Hmmm, apparently the part I didn't read. Opps. I will note that BLP1E wasn't mentioned before that, so it's unclear how that conclusion was reached (still not sure how I missed it though...). I'll still ask the question--how is this one event? Hobit (talk) 01:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Given that BLP1E is clearly mentioned twice, one of which is in the concluding sentence, I'm not sure how it could be clearer (I may be so bold to suggest that you look at it with a fresh set of eyes in a few hours after a rest, that may help). Anyway, those quibbles aside, BLP1E comes up because the only non-routine coverage is for the alleged 1000th arrest. Everything else has been a routine "he got arrested again" type piece, and it is irrelevant who carries such a piece at that point; it's still just routine, and is still just literally the same thing over and over again. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 01:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Sound policy-based rationale, and within admin discretion given the numbers for and against. Andreas JN466 22:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
  • What policy are you referring to here? I got the sense of an IAR deletion from the closing statement, but I'm willing to change if on-point policy exists supporting this. Hobit (talk) 22:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn to no consensus It doesn't seem like there is perfect consensus on what to do with the article. I think that the keeps and deleters both had strong arguments that were both based on policy. I voted keep, but I can see where the delete voters are coming from. Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 22:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion: The comments of the closing administrator are perfectly rationale, sensible and acceptable, I see no issue with deleting an article that passes the General Notability Guidelines, especially in the event of biographies where the notability is derived from negative coverage of embarrassing or compromising events. There are always these odd little biographies that appear, where someone passes our notability threshold by accident rather than by design and it's sensible to allow the necessary leeway to permit deletion. I suppose we could go to the trouble of trying to tweak notability policy but that adds more complexity, a sensible deletion, as was carried out in this case, backed up by a strong and well thought out rationale is the best way forward. I've no issues at all with the deletion and commend the closing administrator, 28bytes on their close. If I was into all that soppy shit, I'd give them a cookie. Nick (talk) 22:50, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse the 1E was him being arrested too many times. It was a clear violation and the consensus was correct, despite all the canvassing on both sides. Secret 22:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• How are multiple arrests over several decades "one event" again? I mean, at the very least this DRV should result in the rejection of that rationale for deletion and the conceiving of a new one. We don't need to set some sort of bizarre precedent where "one event" suddenly becomes "one common thread that spans multiple events" as that effectively upends the whole basis for that part of the policy. BLP1E is about living people who are minor figures in a single event of fixed duration. People who are repeatedly covered in-depth by national media for something that keeps happening to them or something they keep doing over many years are not people for whom BLP1E is meant to apply.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:29, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Correct. To dismiss this as "one event" requires an abuse of language. What happened was a series of events. Everyking (talk) 01:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
    • @The Devil's Advocate and Everyking: I think it's a mistake to take BLP1E so literally that we ignore the idea behind it, which is to protect living people who would not even begin to meet our definition of "notable" were it not for a single aspect of their lives (in this case, an arrest record for low-level infractions for trespassing and the like) that caught the media's attention. It's true that multiple arrests are by definition more than one discrete event, but we shouldn't construe BLP1E so narrowly that we require a literal "single event" and lose sight of the broader goal behind our BLP policy, of which BLP1E is a part: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. There was a strong argument among the participants of the AfD that the existence of the article violated BLP1E – if not its letter, than certainly its spirit – and that argument was not, to my reading, effectively rebutted by the (smaller number of) participants who argued the article should be kept. 28bytes (talk) 02:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
      • I wouldn't say Earl falls under the "low-profile individual" (he made an appearance on a highly-viewed talk show to discuss his numerous arrests) so I still don't believe BLP1E applies. Basically, if he died, he would be notable? Taylor Trescott - + _{my edits} 03:49, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
      • Countless people are considered notable for a single aspect of their lives. Being a politician is generally a single aspect of a person's life, for instance. No one considers that sort of thing an event and the only reason people are behaving differently is because of some perception about this being malicious. I think this whole conversation about "protecting him" is actually a tad patronizing since it ignores the fact the guy in question has nothing really going for him in his life except his Internet fame. He is a 60-something homeless guy with an addiction problem whose spent a quarter of his life in jail for minor offenses. I am pretty sure the brightest parts of his day involve some person saying "you're that guy on the Internet!" and asking to take a picture with him or get his autograph.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 04:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
        • Stop making dumb arguments eh! This isn't a politician, this isn't a major league baseball player, this is a habitual drunk guy that lives in doorways and gets arrested for it, who was exploited by a TV show for entertainment, and is exploited by newspapers as space filler. John lilburne (talk) 07:41, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
          • What is dumb is your subjective and frankly offensive assessment of major league baseball players as somehow more deserving consideration than homeless people. --cyclopia 10:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
            • Homeless people deserve attention, I've started organisations campaigning for housing for them, sued local governments for not providing accommodation, initiated self help groups. But what they don't need is the attention of some dweeb compiling a encyclopedia article that is no more than pointing the finger at 'that guy'. What you had was an article that says habitually drunk guy gets arrested for being habitually drunk, that isn't an encyclopedia article, it isn't even a wp article, what you have is a pile of steaming horseshit. Write the article that is a balanced coverage of this guy's life and why he is notable and most of the delete votes will change to keep. As is often said there is no deadline here, so go away and write the proper article we can wait. John lilburne (talk) 16:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
            • Well, they kind of are more deserving. Being notable and worthy of public attention for one's physical and athletic achievements is something to be proud of. Being scrutinized by the media because one's life is so in shambles that one keeps committing misdemeanor after misdemeanor, crime after crime, is a tragedy. Mr. Earl needs help; Alcoholics Anonymous, job training, life counseling, whatever it is that this country's social services can offer to get this person back on his feet. He isn't a politician or an athlete or a musician, people regularly glued to throngs of paparazzi. He's a human being, Cyclopia, one that does not deserve to have his 15 minutes of fame cemented into an encyclopedia for all-time. Tarc (talk) 14:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
              • Sorry, I didn't know that there was a hierarchy where -given the same amount/quality of sources coverage- some people deserve the (admittedly odd) honour of an article while some else do not. Maybe do we think that people living on the street are less human than people playing sports? Yes, Mr. Earl needs a lot of help. How this has to do, for better or worse, with coverage in an encyclopedia is beyond me. If anything, given that we're talking about help, the article here can make more people aware of his case and perhaps it will end up attracting the help he so sorely needs.--cyclopia 15:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
          • The dumb argument is saying "one event" can mean a large number of events with a recurring theme. Everything else just stems from that initial stupidity. Also, stow the babble about "exploiting" and "humanity" since I am fairly certain you have not even bothered to figure out what the guy himself thinks of his notoriety.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
            • The event is being arrested for being drunk and sleeping in doorways. Being arrested once, twice, or a thousand times does change the event. I drive 30 miles to work and 30 miles back each day. According to you that I've done it 6500+ times in the last 15 years has changed the event of me driving along the A45 into something notable. John lilburne (talk) 16:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
              • First of all, I think you've just made a "slippery-slope" argument which generally isn't helpful. But in any case, even going down that slope, your conclusion is mistaken. In the case of your example, it does mean that if you got ongoing coverage for that drive, we'd not consider it one event. Ongoing coverage of multiple events is not a single event. I think the SS argument is actually on the side of those that think this isn't an event. By your logic a person notable for playing baseball would be notable for "one event" (playing baseball) and we shouldn't cover them per BLP1E. It's not the best argument, but it does show that taken to an extreme your argument about events creates a nonsensical result. Hobit (talk) 18:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
                • Many of you have already slide down the slope into a effluent tank. If what you have is someone that has played baseball in the local park for N years then they are not notable, and such a person wouldn't have an article here. Baseball players are included here simply because they play baseball each week, they are included because they are members of notable teams, and they take part in otherwise notable games. It is a different category of notable and you are confusing logical types when you assume the notability is derived simply for participating in a game of baseball. None of these guy's arrests are individually notable. John lilburne (talk) 20:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse - The closing admin accepted the argument that the arrests, in totality, are the "event". How narrowly or how broadly to interpret policy such as WP:BLP1E is well within admin discretion. Re-arguing this point at Deletion Review will not gain traction, as "I disagree" is not a valid basis for filing a complaint here. Tarc (talk) 03:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse closure - Don't like the BLP1E rationale? Then see the policy of Ignore All Rules and improve the encyclopedia by snipping this unencyclopedic cruft. Carrite (talk) 05:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I think this is actually a good type of situation for IAR. But in general IAR shouldn't be used when there isn't consensus behind the notion that it does improve the encyclopedia. IAR isn't an excuse for not liking the consensus (or lack thereof) but rather a way to agree to follow consensus even if the rules as written say we should not. Hobit (talk) 18:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Question on Closing Comment - Ignoring the above discussion on BLP1E and No Consensus/Endorse Closure, I would like to make sure if 28bytes was correct to close the debate. To first quote 28bytes from the AfD: " Countering BLP1E (and WP:BLP concerns in general) are arguments that the subject meets WP:GNG, but as the introduction to that guideline states: "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject should be included. A more in-depth discussion might conclude that the topic actually should not have stand-alone article—perhaps because it violates what Misplaced Pages is not, particularly the rule that Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. " The problem I have is that 28bytes cites Misplaced Pages:INDISCRIMINATE as the main rational. While WP:GNG, which was cited does mention WP:INDISCRIMINATE, none of the users in the discussion cited WP:INDISCRIMINATE in their comments as a reason for the article to be deleted nor made a reference to the text of the policy. My question is, can the closer cite a policy that was not a part of the discussion as their reason to end the discussion? I ask as it is only the closer who has made the argument to delete per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. (I would like to take a moment here to note that I didn't directly bring this up to 28bytes since this review was started shortly after the discussion was closed; not to mention that I just found out about the review. Thus, I would like to request time for 28bytes to respond if, and only if, the closer is not permitted to cite a policy that was not a part of the discussion as the main rational.) --Super Goku V (talk) 07:13, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
  • @Super Goku V: It was not my intention to use any policies in my close that had not been explicitly cited by the participants in the AfD. The main policies and guidelines being argued in the AfD were WP:BLP, WP:BLP1E and WP:GNG. In the case of the latter, I quoted some of the introduction to the GNG that I felt was relevant to the discussion, my point being that GNG explicitly allows that subjects may have multiple, reliable source references and still not merit a standalone article. That the quote includes a reference to WP:INDISCRIMINATE does not mean that I closed the discussion on that basis; my close was based solely on weighing the BLP/BLP1E and GNG arguments which had been brought up by the participants. I believe the last sentence of the close makes clear which policies and guidelines I considered operative to the debate: I'm therefore convinced that deletion is compatible with both WP:BLP1E and WP:GNG. 28bytes (talk) 22:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist This is a super!vote, and one that also introduced an argument not present in the discussion, as Super Goku V (talk · contribs) above correctly notices. Also: the BLP1E reading is also fatally flawed: there is no single event that the (very well sourced) material shown in the discussion would be able to be redirected/merged, in principle. Coverage was about the person. Saying that a string of similar events can be conglomerated as BLP1E is akin to saying that Mick Jagger is a BLP1E because, well, all he's known for is singing in a string of records and concerns. --cyclopia 10:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Thesurvivor2299.com

Thesurvivor2299.com (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

This article was voted to be deleted mainly on the basis of WP:CRYSTAL, which I would agree with. But considering it subsequently proved to be a hoax, and that it obtained a significant amount of press attention by dedicated websites both before and after the fact was made known, I feel there are ground for the page to be re-created and adjusted accordingly. --Jasca Ducato (talk) 16:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 19:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Question Is there any coverage of the hoax outside of dedicated websites? DGG ( talk ) 19:55, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm seeing two mainstream (though not major sources AFAIK) in the article. Hobit (talk) 21:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Appears to meet the GNG. Arguments like CRYSTAL and OR don't make a lot of sense given that CRYSTAL doesn't apply to well-sourced things even if hoaxes and it isn't OR if it's sourced. I'm tempted to !vote to overturn (potentially to keep). My personal preference would have been a redirect to Fallout 4 (also under discussion for deletion, but I'd say this material would save it...). Hobit (talk) 21:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse per Jasca Ducato. 02:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You mean "Overturn to keep/no consensus", Citation needed? --George Ho (talk) 05:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Overturn Deletion The article complies with WP:GNG; it also complies with WP:OR because it is referenced (also noted above). And for WP:CRYSTAL, the article is/was about speculations, not making speculations. --MrScorch6200 (t c) 02:27, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn Deletion Significant developments happened and WP:GNG has been met by a long shot. I will watchlist the article and improve it if it gets undeleted. Ramaksoud2000 05:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Overturn - to no consensus. There's enough sources to plausibly argue that it passes WP:N, while they're perhaps weak enough to plausibly argue it fails WP:N (at least, my perusal of them suggests they're not so far to one side or the other that the closing admin can entirely discount either position). Marginal with respect to WP:N and marginal with respect to headcount should be no consensus. The WP:CRYSTAL argument is what comes out of the north end of a south-facing bull, and should be entirely ignored by the closing admin, of course. WilyD 10:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion but no prejudice for re-creation. The article as it stands is a mess but there may be sources out there to support a completely re-written-from-scratch article. Яehevkor ✉ 12:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. For starters, I don't go by a head-count and agree with closer's summary. The deletion argument was not that there aren't reliable sources (or that articles about hoaxes aren't allowed), it's that none of them were in-depth and all were routine video game news coverage. They are only considered in-depth, when it is a review, a commentary, discussion of cultural impact, at least editor's opinion, etc. Here they simply reported the website and followed the fake clues and then reported it was a hoax. Previews, PRs and sensationalized articles like this are commonly dismissed for GNG, because they carry no material besides the original primary source. It's not that most of keep !votes did not say there weren't any sources, it's that these sources weren't shown to adequately satisfy GNG's in-depth criteria. While many users said then and here about abundance of sources, this only satisfies "multiple" and "reliable" (WP:VG/RS) GNG bits. I also respect that others have a different view on GNG threshold that I happen to disagree with in this case. I also don't think material should all be deleted, and a mention in Fallout 4 or some list of hoaxes would be perfectly fine. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 16:14, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion if anything, I'd say that the fact that Thesurvivor2299 turned out to be a fanmade hoax is a strong argument that the AFD got it right and a reminder of exactly why we have rules like WP:N and CRYSTAL. The supposition that being a fanmade hoax site somehow made it MORE notable eather than less is just bizarre. If anything, it's very much the opposite. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 20:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

File:In my tribe original cover 10000 maniacs.jpg

File:In my tribe original cover 10000 maniacs.jpg (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)

I was advised to have the image's deletion reviewed here. This image was deleted without one single vote of either keep or delete. There was one comment saying that only one image must be used, but that person didn't say either the original or the re-release edition. In contrast, the other discussion says that two different album covers are good enough for another album, Touch (Sarah McLachlan album). Should consensus be straightforward or inconsistent? I did advise administrators to not delete the image without consensus, but the advise was ignored. Oh yes, almost forgot: the album cover was also discussed in WT:non-free content/Archive 60#Choosing one of album and singles covers of a similar work. George Ho (talk) 00:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. Maybe WP:FFD isn't the best forum for perceptive consensus building and relisting until happy agreement has been reached. Also, the instructions for closers are rather different from other deletion venues "Files that have been listed here for more than 7 days are eligible for deletion if either a consensus to do so has been reached or no objections to deletion have been raised". In this case no objections had been raised (but no one supported deleting this particular image either). Thincat (talk) 20:45, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• If there are multiple files and it is unclear which ones we should keep, it may be better to use WP:NFCR instead. Maybe it is better to simply list this case there. However, if an article fails WP:NFCC#3a, then something must be deleted per policy, although it is difficult to decide which image(s) if there only is consensus that something is to be deleted but no consensus about what that something is. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Kevin L. McCrudden

Kevin L. McCrudden (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

You deleted the page started for Kevin L. McCrudden. Stating it was "promotional." How is anything "biographical" not "promotional?" There were several news sources and news clips given as "objective sources" and even a page from The United States Congress. What information do you need then in order to assign or move this worthy page forward? How or when do we know if you have responded? Where do we receive notice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.230.83 (talk) 19:51, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

The article was highly promotional with multiple superlatives and links to the same sales website. Stephen 21:52, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

• temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review . I would not necessarily restore an article like this even temporarily, but it will be easier to see the depth of the problems with the text available,; it's at Kevin L. McCrudden. With respect to notice, the username under which the article was contributed was User:Kevin McCrudden, so the notice was properly paced at the same time the deletion was requested, on that user's talk page, User talk:Kevin McCrudden. DGG ( talk ) 19:59, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse the speedy deletion. To me the the article very clearly is covered by the WP:CSD#G11 criterion. Although I can find parts of the article which do not seem promotional (e.g. the last paragraph) it needs a complete rewrite to become encyclopedic in tone. Thincat (talk) 21:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)
• Endorse per Thincat. I'll admit I didn't make it all the way to the last paragraph, but it met G11 before that no matter how it finished. Hobit (talk) 21:36, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look at this. The discussion is that there are thousands of pages about people that haven't done what Mr. McCrudden has done. He was named specifically as the creator of National Motivation & Inspiration Day during the debate of H. Res 308 on 12/18/2001.

He is a published author with books and audiobooks on Amazon, iTunes and Barnes & Noble. All of which are neutral, non partisan sites.

His appearances on national and international TV are on unbiased sites. All of the links to all of these sites are on his web sites.

How can we have someone begin a page with these very legitimate links and pages?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

69.114.230.83 (talk) 22:03, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

In order to write an article about person you will need links to neutral sources which discuss the person in question in reasonable detail which allow us to establish the notability of the person, see WP:NOTABILITY and the sidebar in it for subject-specific guidelines. Further, your article must be based only on information in these sources and this information must be presented without superlative terms (see WP:PEACOCK). Staszek Lem (talk) 00:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. I guess my concern is how does any page about someone NOT come across as "promotional?" I understand the superlatives, but we have provided pages from the United States Congress. Amazon, iTunes. Barnes & Noble. Fox News. ABC News. How are these NOT objective?

National Motivation & Inspiration Day was passed by The United States Congress on 12/18/2001 after the tragic events of 9-11-01. H. Res 308 is the resolution that was passed declaring January 2nd National Motivation & Inspiration Day. https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/107/hres308

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=kevin+mccrudden

http://ax.itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZSearch.woa/wa/search?term=Kevin%20McCrudden

https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/simple-goals/id590236532?mt=8&ign-mpt=uo%3D2

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3958991/

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1359149018001/

I hope these are seen as non partial sources. 69.114.91.34 (talk) 02:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse - Lacks reliable external, independent sources. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

? I'm so sorry. I am just not getting you guys. How is the Congressional Record, Amazon, iTunes, Apple and Fox News NOT "reliable external, independent sources?" We must be missing something?

69.114.230.83 (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are missing something, namely the parts in my previous reply highlighted in boldface (since I did suspect you will miss them). Now, please explain which part of Kevins's biography is based on, e.g. Amazon and iTunes links? Staszek Lem (talk) 18:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I apologize. So, "discuss the person" Kevin McCrudden. Is that what you're saying?

Born December 18, 1963 Kevin Laurence McCrudden, twin to Karen Lorraine McCrudden born 3 minutes apart. Graduated from St. John the Baptist High School in West Islip, NY in December 1981, Class of 1982 Graduated from State University of New York at Brockport in December 1985, Class of 1986 Stand out Soccer player and 4 year starter. All SUNYAC Conference and All New York State Selections Founder of National Motivation & Inspiration Day Italic textas passed by The United States Congress, H. Res. 308 on December 18, 2001 https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/107/hres308 AND: New York State Senate Resolution Number 3850 on January 29, 2002 President and CEO of Motivate America, Inc.Italic text www.MotivateAmerica.us Creator of The American Motivation AwardsItalic text, honoring "motivational, inspirational and patriotic leaders in America." www.AmericanMotivationAwards.com Past honorees include: Dr. Stephen Covey; Zig Ziglar; Jim Rohn; Connie Podesta; The Tuskegee Airmen; Randy Pausch; Tom Brady; Michael Phelps; Brett Favre Author of "Who Are You? Become the Very Best You that You Can Be"Italic text http://www.amazon.com/Who-Become-Very-Best-That/dp/1613392575/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1386788781&sr=8-6&keywords=Kevin+Mccrudden Author of "SUCCESS TRAINING" Italic texthttp://www.amazon.com/Success-Training-Secrets-Always-Dreamed/dp/B006YCMXJY/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1386788781&sr=8-10&keywords=Kevin+Mccrudden Author of "The Extraordinary Man ~ The Journey of Becoming Your Greater Self" Italic text http://www.amazon.com/The-Extraordinary-Man-Journey-Becoming/dp/B0087RWHHC/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1386788974&sr=8-9&keywords=Kevin+Mccrudden Author of The Commencement ~ Transform Your Life and Expect Your Greater Self" Italic text http://www.amazon.com/The-Commencement-Transform-Expect-Greater/dp/B0087X8WVQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1386788974&sr=8-3&keywords=Kevin+Mccrudden

Appearances on Fox News to discuss National Motivation & Inspiration Day 2008 http://video.foxnews.com/v/3958991/ 2010 http://video.foxnews.com/v/1359149018001/

Is this what you mean? We were so preoccupied defending why he deserves a page, we weren't giving you the specifics you needed. Is that what was happening? I thought we were providing information for someone else to write the article though?

I hope we're getting closer to what you needed. Is this enough to get the ball rolling? Do you need us to supply you with links to fill in blanks?

Thank you for working with us on this. 69.114.230.83 (talk) 19:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Your replies clearly demonstrate that you fail to understand the nature of our requirements and our objections despite a long discussion. You failed to answer direct questions addressed to you. Therefore regardless the merits of Kevin McCrudden,I see no point to talking to you further, sorry. According to your policy, Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest, I would suggest you to abandon this issue. If he is as notable a person as you claim, then let somebody else to write the article. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse the speedy deletion; see my talk above. Staszek Lem (talk) 20:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I apologize for not understanding your cryptic note in bold that said, (In order to write an article about person you will need links to neutral sources which discuss the person in question in reasonable detail which allow us to establish the notability of the person, see WP:NOTABILITY and the sidebar in it for subject-specific guidelines. Further, your article must be based only on information in these sources and this information must be presented without superlative terms)

I'm sorry you feel it's a waste of time. This is our third attempt to have a page loaded for Mr. McCrudden. It has been over a decade since the creation of National Motivation & Inspiration Day, which was passed by Congress. I just don't know what more of an objective site you can find. It's just fact. No superlatives. His books and audiobooks are just fact. No superlatives there either. They are on sale on internationally recognized web sites. So, forgive us for not getting "your language "

Our original request was to ask if there is a way that someone can build this page. Otherwise, we would do it, if we knew how. We don't. It's like asking us to speak Greek. We don't.

Is there someone else we can have review this? A "Supervisor" of sorts?

We have tried to be polite, but it seems there is some condescension that we don't understand. We are reading the sentences and they do not make sense. 69.114.230.83 (talk) 20:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)