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sokal affair

I removed some commentary on the sokal affair because it has nothing to do with Sheldrake. The criticisms etc are about the publication of the article and have no bearing on anyone mentioned in passing therein. Barleybannocks (talk) 02:32, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

David added that commentary. I removed it. David added it again, citing something about original research, which I never understood. vzaak (talk) 02:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I see Barney has added the commentary again. This isn't about Sheldrake and seems to be included only to get some very negative statements into the article as if they are about Sheldrake when they are not. Please explain the relevance of the commentary here.Barleybannocks (talk) 11:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

• As the cited sources clearly show, others consider this to be relevant. We should reflect what the sources say, not what we personally believe. Guy (Help!) 12:31, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I completely agree the Sokal affair is relevant, and that's why I left the reference to it, and a brief description of it, in the article. What is not relevant is to take the genertal commentary (in the form of criticisms) about the Sokal affair and imply they have anything much to do with Sheldrake per se. They do not. But hey, any chance to get some negative words into the article, eh.Barleybannocks (talk) 12:36, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The current veriosn as of now is:

Sheldrake's work was amongst those cited in a faux research paper written by Alan Sokal and submitted to Social Text. In 1996, the journal published the paper as if it represented real scientific research, an event which columnist George F. Will described as "a hilarious hoax which reveals the gaudy silliness of some academics" and which has come to be known as the Sokal affair.

This seems to me to be perfectly acceptable. But see below... Guy (Help!) 12:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The problem is with "which reveals the gaudy silliness of some academics" and "as if it represented real scientific research" which are both about the Sokal affair and not about Sheldrake in any meaningful way. Thus to include them in the Sheldrake article is to imply that in some way they are a commentary on Sheldrake when they are not. This is misleading and completely wrong in a BLP since it represents a disingenuous attempt to misdirect the criticism from its intended target onto the subject of this article.Barleybannocks (talk) 12:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You and I are familiar with the Sokal hoax. Readers may well not be. The comment is a direct quote about the Sokal hoax and is valid in framing it. Feel free to suggest a better quote that sums up the hoax and what it means. In context, the inclusion of Sheldrake's ideas was deliberate, was intended to highlight a credulous approach to a certain sort of argument, so was directly relevant to the purpose and nature of the hoax, yes? Guy (Help!) 13:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

IU think the first sentence does the job reasonably well. It was a hoax paper that got published that mentions Sheldrake and coopts some of his terminology. The further views about that hoax have no bearing on Sheldrake and have no place in the article - especially not in a way that implies some negativity with regard to Sheldrake and/or his views. Barleybannocks (talk) 13:37, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

There are many forms of hoax. The specific point of the Sokal hoax was to highlight the credulous nature of those participating in sciencey-sounding but unscientific disciplines. That's what we need to explain. Feel free to suggest an alternative quote that makes this point. Guy (Help!) 13:43, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is a completely peripheral character in the hoax. Sokal simply borrowed some terminology and wrote a load of ruubbish. The commentary on that hoax therefore has nothing to do with Sheldrake's actual work, and the criticisms of particular academics mentioned has nothing to do with Sheldrake. Thus the quote that some here want to include is being included to impugn Sheldrake by the slightest of associations.Barleybannocks (talk) 14:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

He is indeed. But the reference to Sheldrake was nonetheless calculated, and is relevant to this article according to independent sources. What other quote would you substitute in order to maintain the necessary context, while being less offensive to your beliefs? Guy (Help!) 15:59, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

I have already written my preferred version - it removed the slur by association about academics other than Sheldrake, and accurately characterises the deliberate mischaracterisation of Sheldrake by Sokal as part of his hoax. You probably didn't see it because it was only up for a few minutes as Barney appears to have carte blanche to undo changes any number of times (4 at the moment) in one day. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:41, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

So, you refuse to even countenance compromise by suggesting an alternative quote that provides the context without offending your beliefs, and this is somehow everybody else's problem. Except that it isn't, it's one more black mark against you. See how this works? Guy (Help!) 19:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, I have already compromised. I rewrote the passage to give a fairer impression of Sheldrake's lack of substantive involvement in the issue. Here As for your black mark stuff, you really should retract that now given that it is based on a simple error. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You appear not to understand what compromise means. You inserted different wording, others then tweaked that, you want to revert to your own wording. That's not compromise, that#'s ownership, which is the opposite. Do feel free to suggest a quote which provides the necessary context without offending our beliefs. Guy (Help!) 19:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It is of no consequence whether your beliefs are offended. That's the first point. The second point is that I did put in a compromised version that you have failed to even comment on. The fact is that the negative quote is misleading inasmuch as it looks like Sheldrake is being criticised when it was those who published the article that were being criticised. And this kind of misrepresentation of sources appears throughout the article which is, at present, appalling (possibly due to the lack of knowledge of the subject matter of those who have taken it upon themselves to control the article). 19:29, 30 November 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

I have no beliefs to offend here. You are the one advocating a non-standard view of the world. Guy (Help!) 22:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

You said "Do feel free to suggest a quote which provides the necessary context without offending our beliefs" and then you said "I have no beliefs to offend here". Seems both can't be right. You also suggest I am advocating a non-standard view of the world in my reading of the Sokal affair. One can only guess what kind of fantastic view of the world you have if you think the Sokal affair, and all commentary on it, is about Sheldrake. It isn't, he is a very peripheral figure, and that's pretty much a stonewall fact. Thus the use of disparaging remarks about the incident as if they refer to Sheldrake is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

The quote says that "the journal published the paper as if it represented real scientific research". But Wills says the magazine published it as "serious scholarship" (unless there is a more specific quotation). That is not the same thing. We shouldn't be saying anything about Sokal's parody, which gives the impression that it refers to Sheldrake, unless Sheldrake is specifically mentioned. I have no problems mentioning the Sokal affair in principle. --Iantresman (talk) 23:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Sokal himself borrowed some of Sheldrake's terminology and invented a view which he acknowledges Sheldrake does not hold, and attributed that view to Sheldrake for the purposes of the hoax article. He also referenced numerous other people. Thus the criticism of those who published Sokal's article has nothing to do with Sheldrake even though the article here clearly implies it does. The Sokal affair, then, should indeed feature in the article, but only as a brief additional fact, and certainly not as any kind of stick with which to beat Sheldrake.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Have put my proposed compromise version in the article. Before adding the criticism about the Sokal affair itself, please explain it's relevance to Sheldrake whose ideas were not presented genuinely and thus the (previously included) criticism in no way relates to anything Sheldrake has actually done.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Your "compromise" is obdurate refusal to compromise. You are now on notice. As a single purpose account, your tendentious editing of this article is a problem. Portraying removal (yet again) of the text as a "compromise" instead of suggesting a better quote to illustrate the problem is disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. Guy (Help!) 20:23, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Just for the record, I offered two different versions of the article, as well the complete removal of one sentence, as an offer of compromise. You have refused to even acknowledge the existence of these suggestions. Thus you appraisal of the situation is inaccurate. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I hope this edit addresses the respective concerns expressed by the two editors above, and makes both Sokal's views of Sheldrake and his acknowledgment that he misrepresented Sheldrake transparent to the reader. --Andreas JN466 19:32, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I support the edit. It retains the sokal affair as relevant; deals with the issue of misdirecting criticism of those directly involved in the affair onto Sheldrake; and it clarifies Sheldrake's (non) role in it. Much better. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:36, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

"see the Notes section in to verify this"

I'm sure you guys know what this means, but can I suggest that this is never how we cite controversial statements in any article text, let alone in the lede of a BLP article. I see it has been reverted back in, and it is wrong to do so. If a single statement requires 14 citations (in a lede!), then it is probably WP:SYN. Please use one cite per statement, and one that covers the content of the actual statement. --Nigelj (talk) 21:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --Iantresman (talk) 21:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

The text that the 14 references (which we are meant to go and look up in some old version of the WP article) support begins "Scientists and sceptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience..." If that weasel-worded statement is to be made, then I'm sure editors here know that we are meant have a single secondary or tertiary source at hand that actually says words along the lines of "Scientists and sceptics have labelled morphic resonance a pseudoscience." The present text is so unsupported by WP policy that I would normally revert it straight out of a BLP article. However it was edited in under the admonition, "Please stop edit warring", and I would hate to end up at AN/I over it. --Nigelj (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

We have plenty of sources. The weasel words are only there because Sheldrake supporters insist on trying to down-play the extent to which Sheldrake's ideas are rejected. Guy (Help!) 21:54, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I've replaced the weasel word statement with a precise statement backed by the cited sources. Barney has already reverted it twice. He has also reverted corrections to inaccurate, unsourced material on parapsychology and the conservation of energy. Alfonzo Green (talk) 22:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

One problem is that we don't have many sources that actually say "pseudoscience" and we have many more sources that say his work is scientific (even if wrong). The Guardian actually ran a series of four articles asking the question, science or magic, with regard to Sheldrake's work, and some of those listed above who supposedly said pseudoscience (eg, Sue Blackmore) actually said "scientific" and at no point suggested his work was pseudoscience (none of the four articles said that, fwiw). That being said, it is clear a number of people have made this point and others have used other terms that are almost synonymous, so the claim should definitely be in the article. The extent to which it is claimed, though, is something that needs proper discussion, with sources suitable to the issue at hand, so we may accurately characterise this accusation given BLP. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

@Guy (1) Nonsense. There are no editors that are unhappy stating that some scientists have called Sheldrake's work pseudoscience. (2) Even if it were so, that would not be justification to use the weasel words. (3) If the extent to which Sheldrake's ideas are rejected, you'll have not problems providing reliable secondary sources you say exist. (4) I still agree with Barney: (a) "the majority of authorities on a particular subject will simply ignore it" (b) "a small number of authorities have spoken against a particular view, and yet a small number of others have also spoken in favour of it." --Iantresman (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

that is only an issue because you wish to ignore WP:ITA. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I've implemented the suggested change with the word "derisive" because many of the reactions to Sheldrake from scientists are exactly that. I've also included the term "scientific community" because the statement specifies that this is largely the reaction, not the reaction of every individual scientist. Incidentally, Barney once again reverted my clarification of the pseudoscience charge, this time with the claim that Sheldrake has more than two critics. Okay, great. But the sources list only two critics. If Barney or any other editor wishes to make a generalized statement that Sheldrake's work is viewed as pseudoscience by scientists, we'll need a source that makes exactly that claim. Alfonzo Green (talk) 22:55, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

This is plain tendentiousness. There are a huge number of sources already in the article that identified Sheldrake's proposals with pseudoscience or descriptions synonymous with pseudoscience. It is not anyone's job to put them on a platter for you. The fact that the enormous list of them was removed from the lede does not in any way excuse this kind of pretended bafflement about the plain fact that most people who consider Sheldrake's proposals consider them downright wacky. jps (talk) 03:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

One problem is that a number of the sources cited for "pseudoscience" have plainly said no such thing, and a number of other sources have been "interpreted" beyond interpretation to give that impression. It is therefore reasonable, I think, that such criticism in a BLP be supported with precise quotes here so that we can judge whether the author actually said anything like what is being claimed. Another example is the media section where sources are used that don't really support the point they are used to support at all. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:37, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is only a problem in your evaluation. The "interpretation" of a source that uses synonymous descriptions for a pseudoscience is not unreasonable unless you're being pedantic, which it seems is the sort of default mode for many in these discussions. Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist in that he promotes pseudoscience. Others who support pseudoscience disagree with that characterization. It's as simple as that. jps (talk) 19:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

When the source explicitly says "scientific" and the interpretation is "pseudoscientific" then that is a cause for concern. And while such interpretations agree with your opinion on the matter, they don't agree with the source, nor the many other sources that say "scientific", nor the other sources which say there is some debate about the issue. And so while you clearly believe Sheldrake's work is pseudoscientific, your view is firstly irrelevant (unless published in a reliable source), and secondly, it is contradicted by multiple sources from every conceivable type of reliable source. Thus the article should cover the fact that there is a dispute, and that some have said pseudoscience and some have said science. That's how simple it is. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's a false equivalence and a violation of WP:UNDUE. Misplaced Pages is a WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia that covers WP:FRINGE subjects by paying most attention to the mainstream evaluation of them. The only "controversy" that is here is the one that comes from Sheldrake being upset for being criticized. We are able to describe that fairly without taking sides and by being explicit that he is generally considered a pseudoscientist by those in the know. To try to accommodate other editorial slants (e.g. that those people criticizing Sheldrake aren't really "in the know") is an abrogation of WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NOR. An amazing feat of policy avoidance. jps (talk) 21:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

new edits

Barney, it would be helpful if you could seek consensus on the talk page for your edits. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:29, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney has added the following paragraph to the Rose section:

In his next column, Sheldrake again attacked Rose for following "materialism", and argued that quantum physics had "overturned" materialism, and suggested that "memories may turn out to depend on morphic resonance rather than memory traces". Philosopher Alan Malachowski of the University of East Anglia responding to what he called Sheldrake's "latest muddled diatribe", defended materialism, argued that dismissed Rose's explanation with an "absurd rhetorical comparison", asserted that quantum physics was compatible with materialism and argued that "being roughly right about great many things has given the confidence to be far more open minded than he is prepared to give them credit for"

I appreciate the attempt to deepen the discussion, but this passage muddies the section, which primarily addresses the experiment they designed and which Rose eventually carried out. The disputed results of this experiment are far more important than a philosophical disagreement they had along the way. Alfonzo Green (talk) 23:09, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I mostly agree. I think that the Rose section is now too long, and the added information seems to have been added mainly to allow more critical commentary into the article with little in the way of added value. Indeed, the issue of adding in criticism after criticism is one of the main problems with the article imo. Looking at policy/guidelines, it seems more appropriate to have statements of the fact Sheldrake has been criticised rather than trying to impart this point to the reader by lengthy demonstrations. Thus we have various sections where Sheldrake's views are covered in a few words and then the vast bulk of the section (over 80%) is just one quoted criticism after another, often on subjects where the critics are not expert (eg, Rose's criticism of Sheldrake's media appearances). 23:19, 6 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

Or we could pretend he's had received no criticism. And some support from the scientific community. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:24, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

I know full well that Sheldrake has received a lot of criticism and agree that fact should be well covered in the article. I just don't think we need to write the article in such a way as to facilitate the inclusion of a quote from the vast bulk of it. It seems enough to say that the ideas are rejected with brief reasons, the odd quote, and references. As things stand the article is more a demonstration of the criticism (with apparent full Misplaced Pages backing even where the criticism has been widely criticised and/or is from a non-expert) rather than a report about it. One can say, eg, that Sheldrake's media appearances have drawn some criticism without taking up 80% of the section to quote it all. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:30, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Which criticism is from a "non-expert"? I see don't really see any that is not from a reputable academic. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:35, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

None of the criticism at the start of the media section seems to be from media experts. These are sociology of communication issues and yet people like Rose are quoted, and given massive coverage, as if their views represent the mainstream, or are from experts, within that discipline. On issue like this, people like Rose are just disgruntled scientists whose own views may well be subject to criticisms from experts in that field. Moreover, very few of the sources cited (whitfield appear to be) actually seem to be about Sheldrake's coverage in newspapers, radio, television and his speaking engagements which is what the section is supposed to be about. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:45, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

i dont think "media experts" are the sole reliable voice on impact of media on public understanding of science. In fact, scientists would be the experts on that concept. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:54, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I completely disagree. Scientists do not, qua scientists, study the effects of media on people's understanding of science. Some may, and their views, if backed by research etc, should count as expert. But that is not what we have. We just have some scientists who are not media experts complaining. And where media experts have spoken on such issues they have sometimes been critical of the scientific community's attitude to mavericks for a disdainful attitude towards science by the public.Barleybannocks (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is the height of tendentiousness. Scientists are equipped to evaluate claims in the media when they are about science. We are discussing claims in the media that are about science. Ergo scientists are qualified to evaluate such claims. Indeed, scientists are more qualified than anyone else to evaluate whether the media is being accurate in its descriptions of science. Some scientists have even made part of their careers out of it. jps (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say scientists aren't equipped to evaluate claims IN the media ABOUT science. I said that scientist are not expert in the sociological analysis of the effects of, or the societal rights and wrongs of, media coverage of science. That is, they may be experts in terms of appraising the scientific content of any scientific claims made, but they are by no means expert in assessing the societal impact of such claims. Thus when Rose et al grumble about the media coverage Sheldrake receives they are just disgruntled scientists grumbling, and their views about the societal effects of such coverage should not be considered anything like on a par with their scientific assessment of scientific claims in their area of expertise. Thus there is no need to allocate 80% of the space in an introduction to a section on Sheldrake's media coverage to the non-scientific, non-expert, views of a few disgruntled scientists.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You are splitting hairs in asinine ways. When scientists "grumble" about attention being paid to pseudoscientists like Sheldrake, they are absolutely evaluating the claims of the media in supporting the errors and/or lies of Rupert Sheldrake. They are equipped to determine that Sheldrake is misconstruing, misrepresenting, and generally making incorrect statements about the subjects in which they are experts. They do not need to be media experts to judge the media for allowing him space to do that. jps (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I disagree both in terms of your conclusion and your assessment of what the criticism was about. At no point in the cited criticism was there any real scientific content of note. It was all just general non-expert grumbling that the world of the media was not the way they would like it to be. As such their non-expert views should be given a line, at most, in the introduction which notes their concerns but does not massively cover it as if it amounted to anything of consequence or as if it had some accepted scientific validity. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

If you aren't competent enough to see where a scientist is judging content for the lack of its scientific basis, then you should probably not be in this conversation. Scientists are expert at what is and isn't science. They grumble when people promote pseudoscience. That's all that's happening here. jps (talk) 20:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

When someone accuses someone of "self-promotion" he is not engaging in any kind of scientific analysis. To claim otherwise is just arguing for the sake of it. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Balderdash. The scientist is simply pointing out that Sheldrake's self-promotion is a means to scientific miseducation. Sagan was criticized for being somewhat self-promoting, but no one had a problem with his effect on scientific understanding. See the issue? jps (talk) 22:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not what the source says at all. And if that really was what it meant then that is what it should say, rather than asking the reader to divine that point from the term "self-promotion". But then if the article said that it would be as different from the source as many of the other critical points made in the article are. It seems a huge amount ion "interpretation", euphemistically speaking, is being done to sources in order to use them to support things they plainly do not say. This is highly problematic in a BLP. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You seem to have a tortured reading of what a scientist means when they criticize the media for paying attention to someone who is a pseudoscientist. jps (talk) 23:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of edits

Please talk about each issue in turn.

"sometime"

Rupert Sheldrake was a biologist. He no longer works in biology. The normal way to describe this is that he was a "sometime" biologist. There are others. We must be clear. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is no longer a materialist. He continues to promote and call for testing of his formative model of the organism. However, that's beside the point. We're not here to impose our views. We're here to report how Sheldrake is described in secondary sources, and those sources overwhelmingly describe him as a scientist or biologist. If you can find sources that describe him as a one-time or former biologist, then we can include that perspective in the article. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It is certainly extremely controversial to claim that someone can be a scientist while not adhering to methodological materialism. Simply claiming someone is a scientist who denies this basic operational condition is not something that Misplaced Pages should do, IMHO. jps (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The idea we should ignore what reliable sources by the dozen say (biologist) on the basis of the potted philosophy of some editors here is ludicrous. There is a long debate to be had about the connection between materialism and science, but this is not the place. Suffice to say you are quite wrong on the issue in any event. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

None of the sources that claim he is a currently active biologist are reliable, and the reliable ones that claim he is a "biologist" make no mention of whether he is actively working in the field. jps (talk) 20:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Almost every sources offered for this is reliable. And the demand that these should now note that he is currently working in the field is just another ad hoc attempt to reject dozens of solid sources in favour of your own opinions. Sheldrake is a biologist. Nobody outside this talk page disputes it, and many, many sources outside this talk page state it plainly. Thus the article should state it plainly too. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think "former" is preferable to "sometime", but his 35-paper pre-1987 academic career is not notable for WP:PROF and we should describe him in terms of why he's notable. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He's notable as a biologist. He's notable as the biologist who wrote a book that caused a stink and led to him being called the most controversial scientist on earth. And given that and the fact that a huge numbers of reliable sources call him a biologist, Misplaced Pages should too - your attempts to right what you see as a great wrong notwithstanding. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No, he's not really notable as a biologist. He's notable as a book writer. The book is related to his career in biology and we should figure out how to write this properly. "Former" biologist doesn't quite do it, though. He dropped out of biology to pursue his dream of what he thinks biology should be. I'm not sure how to succinctly describe that. jps (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No, he's notable as a biologist. It was his biology book being reviewed by Nature that led directly to his notoriety. Not only that, dozens of reliable sources call him that, including one that is so reliable it is currently used in the introduction to support something it doesn't say (parapsychologist) instead of what it actually does say ("well-known biologist"). So, just move the citation back a few words in the opening sentence to where the intro says "biologist" and that should take care of both problems - the incorrect use of the source for parapsychologist becomes the required source for biologist.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You really aren't paying attention, it seems. The other editors dispute that he is notable as a biologist, and his previous career as such needs to be characterized in light of his notoriety for writing a book 'relevant to biology, but isn't a "biology book". jps (talk) 23:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I know very well that other editors dispute it here. But this dispute extends nowhere beyond this talk page. There simply is no such dispute in the wider world. That's why dozens of reliable sources call him a biologist and no reliable sources explicitly dispute it. Here's one that not only says he's a biologist but says he's a "well-know biologist" (ie, notable as a biologist). Have you a problem with Marc Bekoff, or Psychology Today? If so then you should know the source is already used in the lede (it's number three).Barleybannocks (talk) 23:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Go into your local university's biology department and ask them their opinion of Sheldrake's baloney. To claim that the dispute is confined to this talkpage is ludicrous, and perhaps indicative of an extremely blinkered understanding of what is mainstream. jps (talk) 23:26, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The issue here is whether he's a biologist. And the answer is a resounding yes from dozens of reliable sources such as highly respected academics and highly respected academic institutions and peer-reviewed journals and mainstream high-quality media. This is the point there is no dispute about anywhere outside this talk page. Thus I will not address your attempt to change this very specific question into yet another debate about the veracity of his work (there, there obviously is a debate). Barleybannocks (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I didn't change the subject: we're trying to figure out how to appropriately describe Sheldrake. You claimed that Sheldrake is notable as a biologist uncontroversially. That's nonsense. Sheldrake is notable for writing something that essentially almost every biologist who looks at rejects. That is the sense in which we should describe him. Now how to do that is the issue. jps (talk) 23:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

We're looking for how to describe in the first line of a BLP. Thus the dozens of sources that say "biologist" should suffice. Especially given there is nothing external to this talk page which explicitly questions this well-known fact.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Clearly, if we wrote, "Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist" as the first linke that would not be enough. jps (talk) 23:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

parapsychologist

Rupert Sheldrake is a parapsychologist. We should be up front about that. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

probably should be footnoted with one of the many sources that make that analysis. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He is a biologist and parapsychologist. We should be upfront about both. Biologist is sourced to over 20 sources and I seem to remember sources were offered above for parapsychologist. Thus we should say both. At present though we have the ridiculous, and meaningless, suggestion that he is a "sometime English biologist". What does that mean - sometimes he's a French biologist, or a German one, or that he's only sometimes a biologist (ie, when he's not sleeping, or eating dinner). It seems to me, then, that in their desire to do down Sheldrake, some editors here are (unwittingly) making a mockery of Misplaced Pages with the introduction of farcical phrases. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Alternative suggestions that indicate that he was once this and now is that would be most welcome. jps (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"Biologist" would appear to be the best choice. It is true, it is well-sourced (to dozens of sources), and it is completely in line with Misplaced Pages guidelines, policies and precedents. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Doesn't indicate that he is no longer doing research in biology. jps (talk) 20:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There is firstly no such requirement, and secondly, even if there was, he meets it. He is still researching morphogenesis, for example. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I asked for a specific alternative. You don't have to respond if you don't agree to it. Also, Sheldrake hasn't published in a legitimate journal in decades, so he's obviously not doing meaningful work in biology any more. Credible journal publications are the currency of research. jps (talk) 22:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

scientific facts

The Law of Conservation of Energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion machines are scientific facts. I linked to the appropriate section so you can learn about that. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have already learned quite a bit about it. In my experience, the common ways to speak of COE are as a "law" or "principle". There are dozens or hundreds of references to it as a law or principle, for example this one. It would be helpful if you could provide a reference or two defining COE as a "fact". I've tried, but I can't find any.

Until such references surface, one can look at the articles Laws of science and Scientific laws for information about these matters, as well as for specific references to COE. The article section on scientific fact is pretty non-specific, and doesn't mention COE. Maybe it's not such a good thing to link to, at least compared to the other two. Lou Sander (talk) 06:02, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The fact that the conservation of energy is a direct result from the observed time symmetry in nature makes the conservation of energy a fact if anything can be said to be a fact.

I'll leave you to find the thousands if not millions of other examples (these were just the few that took me seconds to locate). jps (talk) 11:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The fact that energy is conserved is due to the principle of conservation of energy. Lou Sander (talk) 13:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The fact that energy is conserved is due to physics conforming to reality. The principle, law, and fact of energy conservation is not an assumption: it is a feature of time symmetry. What you are saying/implying is as nonsensical as saying "the fact that 1+1=2 is due to the principle of 1+1=2". jps (talk) 14:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see a lot to be gained from a lengthy discussion of the exact nature of the law of conservation of energy. This is because the way the current introduction has it - "and advocates questioning the scientific facts of conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion devices" - is a gross misrepresentation of Sheldrake's overall view. That is, it is true in a sense, but it is only one tenth of the story and far from the most important tenth. If this is supposed to be a one line summary of Science Set Free then it is an awful attempt and should be changed to something more general that accurately covers the gist of what Sheldrake is saying. As it stands, it seems to me, it is just another example of Sheldrake's views being presented in the most unflattering light imaginable. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:24, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It may be that this particular tenth of Sheldrake's ideas are over-emphasized, but I see no alternatives being proposed that emphasize something else. If we're going to talk about his questioning/denial of the conservation of energy, we need to make it clear that he disagrees with a fact. jps (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

One alternative would be to say he advocates questioning what he calls ten dogmas of science - dogmas which he feels have been elevated above the status of provisional knowledge to the extent that some claim they are facts which must not be doubted/questioned. It is also worth noting that some of the criticisms of Sheldrake reject his claim that scientists take these dogmas as facts - thus the irony of this discussion. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a bit head-spin-y, but there is an extreme consistency here that you seem to have missed. There is nothing, in principle, non-scientific about questioning basic facts. Question the facts of the conservation of energy and the impossibility of perpetual motion all you want: that's not a problem. These are, perhaps, unfortunate ideas to start out with, though, and the motivation for why Sheldrake thinks these are reasonable things to be questioning is rather absurdly lacking to the point of it being mistakable for farce. I think this is why some people here think we are criticizing Sheldrake by pointing out this simple point that he advocates questioning facts even though there is nothing in principle wrong with questioning facts.

More broadly, I think Sheldrake's poor choice of questions may be related to his documented illiteracy in matters of physics. I somehow doubt that he would have said something like, "I think we should question the existence of the cell" on the basis of reasonable skepticism of microscopes(!). It's that level of absurdity we're talking about here with this rhetoric -- nearly to the point of a kind of middle school solipsism and protestations of 14 year olds that "we can't really ever know anything!" Still, in principle, there is nothing that is not up for grabs in our investigations of the Universe, so the critique that Sheldrake thinks there is no flexibility is certainly misplaced. The larger point that is perhaps more visible, however, is that you cannot question facts without first understanding why the facts exist. In the case of Sheldrake's streams of consciousness about energy and perpetual motion, it's pretty clear he is out of his element. Questioning the *fact* of the conservation of energy is fine (and de rigeur!), but he is not doing this in a serious way at all. There is a difference, of course, between being open-minded and letting your brain fall out. jps (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure there's a place for your philosophical opinions in the article. Facts can't be amended; facts can be amended (but only if they're questioned seriously). If you have a non-contradictory non-your-own-opinion point about how we should improve the article I'd love to hear it.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

These aren't philosophical opinions at all. This is an evaluation of the sources you seem to have misunderstood. Try to keep up. jps (talk) 18:14, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a difference between a fact, law, and principle. As someone who studied philosophy and history of science at Harvard University, Sheldrake will not only know the difference, but have used the term he felt was most appropriate. I can not think of any reason why anyone would want to force their own interpretation on what they THINK Sheldrake meant, or claim he said something different to what he actually wrote. There are enough book reviews on Sheldrake to use as secondary sources for use as interpretation and analysis. --Iantresman (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You claim that there is a difference, but don't show any sources that indicate that Sheldrake thinks there is a difference. And even if he does, he denies the fact of the conservation of energy, or, at the very least, advocates that it should be okay to question whether the conservation of energy is a fact. As I've said previously, I don't really care if we discuss the conservation of energy in the lede, but if we do, I'm not going to stand by while people construe it as a "principle" or a "law" simply because it makes it seem like it is easier to amend. Principles and laws can be amended. Facts cannot. jps (talk) 18:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Ironically Sheldrake would entirely approve of your statement. He brings up the issue on page 56 of Science Set Free, specifically disputing the "law of conservation of matter and energy" which "guarantees fundamental permanence in an ever-changing world." He argues that laws of nature are really habits that can be amended, and he applies this approach to conservation of energy among other laws. This is in stark contrast to the standard view, which holds that all laws of nature are immutable. Keep in mind that a fact, by definition, can be directly observed. Sheldrake isn't denying that the conservation of energy has been observed at various times in closed systems. He's denying the inference that conservation of energy must always be obeyed. What he disputes is the lawfulness of energy conservation, not the fact of this or that observation. (As an aside to jps, time symmetry follows from mathematical analysis, not observation. What we observe is time asymmetry, i.e. the forward movement of time. Only in the math is time allowed to flow backwards.) Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is not a physicist and so may not understand that questioning the conservation of energy is about as rigorous as questioning the idea that one thing added to another thing makes two things. It's that fundamental. He's questioning a basic fact. jps (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is clear that what he questions is the law inferred from observations of energy conservation, not the fact of those observations. We cannot list Sheldrake as a source for a claim he does not make. Incidentally, plenty of physicists, including heavyweights like Dirac, Wheeler and Feynman, have questioned the belief that laws of nature are eternal and immutable. In other words, what is factual today may not be factual tomorrow. See Lee Smolin's Time Reborn. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

There are no facts in science so secure that they cannot be amended given further observations. That, I believe, is philosophy of science 101.Barleybannocks (talk) 20:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That is a shell game. Not philosophy. Competent philosophers do not claim that we can never know anything because everything is up for grabs. jps (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is talking about doubting there are any facts. Some things are clear facts. But in discussions about philosophy of science, using words in a sloppy manner is not helpful, and there is no requirement for Misplaced Pages to engage in such sloppiness just so we can take a cheap shot at Sheldrake. That sentence needs to go, then, for a variety of reasons, not least because it is a hopeless summary of Sheldrake's actual point, as well as for the reasons highlighted just above. 21:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barleybannocks (talk • contribs)

Philosophy of science is irrelevant to the fact that energy is conserved. jps (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Re: Principles, laws and facts, you acknowledge and state a difference in your last sentence, so I don't know why your make it my "claim". It is not for editors to provide sources that support interpretation from editors. If you want to imply that Sheldrake claims that physical facts can be broken, then the onus is on you to provide a source that says. I have not seen one. Indeed, if you want to say anything about Sheldrake and what he says about the Conservation of Energy, then tell us your source, and we'll all look over it. For all we know, he is discussing it in the same way that radioactivity was discussed, when scientists thought that it violated the law of the Conservation of Energy. --Iantresman (talk) 19:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake questions the conservation of energy. The conservation of energy is a fact. Therefore Sheldrake questions the fact of the conservation of energy. The end. jps (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but I think some people will be able to repeat their same old inane refuted arguments over and over again and over again and over again and over again and then some more. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:31, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

And that's exactly what jps is doing. Sheldrake questions the lawfulness of energy conservation, not the fact that it's been observed at various times. To attribute to Sheldrake a claim he does not make is to violate WP:Source. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:08, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I note this from the link to Isolated system from the definition in the Conservation of Energy page: "In the natural sciences an isolated system is a physical system without any external exchange... Truly isolated systems cannot exist in nature... and they are thus hypothetical concepts only" (my emphasis). Thus, when Sheldrake argues that "perpetual motion" devices may work, he need not even dispute law of the conservation of energy to do it, and need only point out that there is no such thing in reality as a closed system. Thus he may be saying that we should investigate so-called perpetual motion devices to see if they work rather than just dogmatically dismiss them by illicitly treating them as closed systems (which are impossible). This also raises issues about the status/use of a purported scientific fact that cannot apply to, or have been observed in, anything we have ever encountered, or will likely ever encounter, in the history/duration of human existence. Thus such devices being ruled out a priori is possibly, for Sheldrake, the dogmatic misapplication of a law for a hypothetical system to a real/different type of system. Best just test the devices, then, says Sheldrake, to see if they do in fact work.Barleybannocks (talk) 01:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

This is silly nonsense. The extent to which the conservation of energy is a law is a fact of nature. The end. Crocodile tears over the impossibilities of "isolated systems" are not going to help rehabilitate Sheldrake's (or his supporters') illiteracy in matters relating to physics. jps (talk) 18:16, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that there is a lot of silly nonsense in this section. It is here for all the world to see. Lou Sander (talk) 18:53, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, a quote I'm seeing is “The universe is now like a perpetual-motion machine, expanding because of dark energy, and creating more dark energy by expanding... Skeptics claim that all these devices are impossible and/or fraudulent, and some promoters of ‘free energy’ devices may indeed be fraudulent; but can we be sure that they all are?” This isn't immediately guaranteed to be a pseudo-scientific statement, even though we know full well what the reputation of the "field" is now. I mean, what would happen if we did design a device that creates dark energy? (I'm not sure if this has any relationship with the equally controversial idea of extracting zero-point energy) If we ignore the invisible dark energy in our calculations, could we see it give the appearance of producing free power? (I think I should take this one to the Science Refdesk, actually - meet you there) Wnt (talk) 18:47, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Dark energy is a form of vacuum energy (essentially a false vacuum), so the stuff is unextractable in essentially the same way zero-point energy is unextractable with the added problem that the energy density of dark energy is impossibly small on human scales. jps (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

So far the Refdesk discussion seems to have been that either we don't know what it is, if it exists, let alone whether we can extract it, or else that it is a mathematical abstraction to explain the cosmological constant. I'd welcome if you would comment further there (or here if you want). It is vacuum energy in the sense that it pervades what we know as a vacuum freely, but is its level truly invariable, or does it just happen to be pretty uniform? When you say it is a false vacuum (which our article doesn't address) that would seem to imply that there is a way to tap that energy after all, but how, when we know so little about it, do we know that you can neither create nor destroy it short of some cosmic catastrophe? Wnt (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

This discussion may be a bit far afield, but basically it is "unextractable" in the normal sense (see work (physics)). The level may be variable (that's what quintessence is), but even if it is, it must take on a scalar form in the Einstein Equations to have the properties necessary to cause the accelerating universe. This basically prevents it from being extractable in even the remotely plausible sense (for example, as in an Alcubierre drive). The "tap into" the dark energy idea of a false vacuum would lead to an end to cosmic inflation with the attendant problems associated with that. If we were to, for example, create a true vacuum that decayed from the false vacuum in a lab or something, this would probably have the effect of destroying the universe at the speed of light. I don't think this is exactly relevant to this article, however interesting it may be. jps (talk) 01:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You know, it doesn't seem fair when professional physicists can talk about some mysterious hypothetical stuff, beyond our ability to test for, that might be a constant or a scalar and might rip the universe apart altogether or blow it up at the speed of light - but Sheldrake gets blasted as a pseudo-scientist for saying that we shouldn't give up looking for a way to detect it experimentally by making free energy. Wnt (talk) 20:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

then you should lodge a complaint of unfairness with the peer review journals for their refusals to publish his work. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Nor is it fair that students are taught by teachers who can't grok the difference between elementary descriptive terms. Lou Sander (talk) 20:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

complaints about the education system go thataway.=> Facebook -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, journals do publish his work. I mean, the guy has been published in Nature. True, it wasn't for science, but still, not everyone does. I fully understand the feeling against it, I really do, but there's a no true Scotsman aspect to saying that no "scientific" journal publishes the works listed about telepathy. Besides, my aggravation is not really directed at the journals who snub Sheldrake, more at the physicists who have wasted veritable days of my time on "dark energy" without me feeling like I have any sense that it has any meaning at all beyond "the universe keeps expanding, duh I wonder why". Wnt (talk) 22:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You want to learn the difference between perpetual motion and dark energy? Take a few classes. I can't help your ignorance on this website. I don't get paid nearly enough. jps (talk) 00:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

ITA

WP:ITA forbids us from using in-text attribution to imply that Rupert Sheldrake is only considered to be problematic in his claims by two isolated critics. We can mention what each critic says but, per WP:SUMMARY, we MUST describe the general reaction to him which is that he is promoting pseudoscience and generally nonsense. jps (talk) 02:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:ITA is a guideline, it does not forbid anything. There is no problem including in the summary, that some scientists have called Sheldrake's work pseudoscience. --Iantresman (talk) 09:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:VALID is a policy which ITA clarifies the application. How is the encyclopedia improved by ignoring the guideline's application of policy in this article? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:48, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Maddox source specifically says it's pseudoscience but that has been edited out. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think it is still there in the section "A book for burning?" (in the quote). I added it, and I don't know any editors who would want it removed. --Iantresman (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Only a few people have charged him with pseudoscience, which is tantamount to heresy. That's very different from widespread rejection of his claims, which is already in the article. Alfonzo Green (talk) 19:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The people who have charged him with pseudoscience are those who are most able to judge, not being supporters of other known pseudoscientific endeavors, for example. jps (talk) 20:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Academic support

There seems to be this idea that Rupert Sheldrake has a small amount of "academic" support. I think what people are trying to say is that there are academics who have expressed support of Sheldrake. However, simply saying he has "academic support" can be confused for a claim that there is "academic work" in support of him, which there is not. The academics who have supported Sheldrake, almost to a name, have not done so in the usual places of academic discourse. There has been no Nature or Science article announcing the discovery of evidence for morphic fields. jps (talk) 12:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a small amount of academic work in support of him - more by physicists than biologists, as one source explicitly says. David Bohm, eg, has done some work with Sheldrake, and Stuart Hameroff acknowledged in the letter published in the Huff Post that he has made use of Sheldrake's work in the cutting edge theory of consciousness he has developed with Roger Penrose. We also have an entire issue of the Journal for Consciousness Studies (a peer-reviewed scientific journal) devoted to a discussion of his theories. Thus the article should deal with the mainstream academic/scientific support/interest and should mention the fact in the introduction. As things stand we have the article making the ludicrously skewed (and false) point that support for Sheldrake's work has come only from new age devotees. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you got citations for these Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)? Genuinely interested to see this scientific support. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we were discussing them yesterday in this section. I believe this is now the fifth time you have asked me, and the fifth time I have provided them.Barleybannocks (talk) 15:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Barleybannocks (talk · contribs). Which papers specifically support Sheldrake and provide validatory tests of his hypotheses? Or it this just more pathological science published in a journal that publishes highly speculative ideas? Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, the point here is that we have secondary sources stating that there has been support, and we have peer-reviewed journal issues devoted to his work, as well as positive discussion of his theories in academic books, and support offered for his theories in various places by a number of scientists and philosophers. The issue of some academic support is now therefore exceptionally well-sourced and demonstrated, even if some still think there is one hoop or other that needs to be jumped through. Secondly, the issue is not about whether his theories have been validated - they have not. The issue is whether there is interest in them and support for them from within academia. The answer to the last question is a clear yes, and therefore given it is all sourced it should be in the article, your arguments against his work, and the sources, notwithstanding.Barleybannocks (talk) 16:49, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen any peer-reviewed journals of high quality. We'd like to see top journals in biology, physics, psychology, etc. That, so far, has not been forthcoming. WP:REDFLAG is, essentially, that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The extraordinary claim that Sheldrake's ideas are taken seriously should be accompanied by extraordinary evidence in the form high-quality journals (since his contention is essentially Nobel Prize worthy if it is true). Since there is no evidence that Sheldrake has received such notice, we are under an obligation not to mislead the reader into thinking that such has occurred. jps (talk) 19:01, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That Sheldrake enjoys some academic support is in no way an extraordinary claim. Not everyone is committed to the materialist interpretation of the world. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake only receives support from those sympathetic to pseudoscience. If he had scientific evidence for his ideas, he would be published in the top journals and talked about. He doesn't, so he's not, and he has no support in the relevant academic disciplines. jps (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

No WP:FRINGE-exception

Try as I might, I can find no WP:FRINGE exeception to this WMF board resolution of last month: . I do find this: "The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees urges the global Wikimedia community to uphold and strengthen our commitment to high-quality, accurate information, by:

Ensuring that all projects in all languages that describe or show living people have policies in place calling for special attention to the principles of neutrality and verifiability in those articles;

Taking human dignity and respect for personal privacy into account when adding or removing information and/or media, especially in articles or images of ephemeral or marginal interest;

Investigating new technical mechanisms to assess contributions , particularly when they affect living people, and to better enable readers to report problems;

Treating any person who has a complaint about how they are portrayed in our projects with patience, kindness, and respect, and encouraging others to do the same."

Yes, I see NPOV in there. We've argued ad nauseum about what NPOV means in relation to this article. But please notice the emphasis. It's mostly about "human dignity" and "reating any person who has a complaint about how they are portrayed in our projects with patience, kindness, and respect, and encouraging others to do the same."

Food for thought
David in DC (talk) 04:08, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Try as I might, i do not see that the foundation has proclaimed that we should whitewash the article and ignore or misrepresent how the academic consensus sees the very non private Sheldrake and his work. If he is concerned about being represented as a promoter of pseudo scientific hokum then it is very simple for him to stop promoting pseudo scientific hokum. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

If Dr. Sheldrake would like to join the discussion on this page, I know I would extend to him patience, kindness, and respect. jps (talk) 04:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Some months ago, I suggested that we should include the phrase "******* ****** (redacted per request from an admin)" to adequately describe Shelly's ideas. I haven't changed my personal views, but I withdraw the suggestion now. Instead, as an olive branch to woolly thinkers, perhaps TRiPOD's suggestion, "pseudo scientific hokum" is a little more encyclopaedic and less inflammatory. I think the pandering of the article towards Sheldrake's world view in the last few days shames us all. Meh. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 08:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem including the phrase ""pseudo scientific hokum", if you have multiple reliable secondary sources that say this. I have no problem attributing this phrase, if you have good reliable source that includes it. Do you have either, or is this just WP:SYNTH? --Iantresman (talk) 09:34, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have removed a potentially WP:BLP violating phrase from my comment above, though it has not actually been demonstrated to me that I have violated that policy. I am happy to comply with policy. I do not wish to be the victim of arbitrary sanctions. I also note that it has been requested that good refs are supplied for assertions here on the Talk page. Accordingly, my refs for the phrase "pseudo scientific hokum" are all of Shelly's published works, broadly construed, since he stopped doing science. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:17, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem saying "psuedoscientific hokum" if we have sources saying this, and if it is attributed. The problem, though, is that we have over twenty top-quality sources for all types of scientists and commentators who say Sheldrake's work is scientific (even if wrong). Thus we cannot treat a small vocal band of critics speaking on behalf of themselves as the voice of the scientific community at large, while ignoring all the opposite view from similar individuals - as some here wish to do. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

We have plenty of sources saying this. They might not use the word "hokum", but still, let's stop pretending otherwise. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is pretending you have no sources. But a number of the sources offered simply did not say it, and some actually said the opposite (Sue Blackmore, eg). Thus while the accusation of psuedoscience should clearly be in the article, we shouldn't attribute it to people who never said, nor anything like it. We should be clear that many disagree and the exact status of Sheldrake's work, re this question, is a matter of debate. Numerous sources make this very point, and the commissioned articles in the Guardian (and their commissioning) demonstrate it. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - please stop trying to interpret sources as saying things that they don't say. Again, your idea of a distinction between "terribly bad science" and "pseudoscience" is absolute nonsense, and it's clearly intended to hammer a wedge into the multitude of sources that basically say the same thing. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:22, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

We have been over this. Blackmore calls him a parapsychologist. "He is scientific - to a point." She then goes on to say his science is wrong and that he refuses to acknowledge lack of evidence for his proposal. To take from Blackmore only the first three words is completely unacceptable misuse and misreading her work. And to do so repeatedly is WP:TE-- -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Strongly disagree. This is an informal fallacy. See "You're either with us, or against us" --Iantresman (talk) 16:45, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not. The sources offered in many case don't say what one would expect them to given their use in the article, while others, eg, Blackmore, says the opposite. She says, for example, "Sheldrake is scientific - at least in many respects" and never uses the word pseudoiscience, or anything like it, and yet this is used as a source for pseudoscience. There is interpretation going on as regards this source, then, but not by me. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You're both very persistent at it, even when you're told you're wrong. That some sources do not mention the word pseudoscience, usually by describing characteristics of pseudoscience while not mentioning the word, cannot be reasonably interpreted to say that they endorse Sheldrake's work as scientific. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:50, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I guess the problem is, eg, when someone says "Sheldrake is scientific - at least in many respects", it is difficult to buy your arguments that they really meant pseudoscientific, and that that's what we should take from their article. Presumably Blackmore was free to write what she wanted and did so, and what she wrote was "scientific" albeit with some qualification. Thus it takes an enormous amount of "interpretation", euphemistically speaking, to yield the claim you want. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe because you have refused to read beyond those 8 words to see what she says in the rest of the article. And what she describes is exactly pseudo science - scientific overlay masking parapsychology and utter nonsense. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

@Barney . It is not for you, or any other editor, to tell us that we are wrong. You are at liberty to disagree. Just because someone describes the characteristics of a duck, doesn't make something a duck. This is a basic induction fallacy and WP:DUCK "The duck test does not apply to article content". --Iantresman (talk) 17:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

@RPoD I have read the rest of the article. At no point does she say Sheldrake's work is peudoscience. Her main criticism is that Sheldrake still believes things which she changed her mind about many years ago. But that in no way equates to the charge that all, or even any, of his work is pseudoscience. Blackmore should therefore be removed from the list of people who have said his work is PS unless another source can be found. @Iantresman, she doesn't even really list any main duck characteristics either as far as I can see. She just thinks he should have changed his mind, but since he knows his own experiments far better than she does he is entitled to argue his corner. This kind of thing is completely normal in science even in cases where some have gone to the grave hanging on to things that evidence rendered unlikely at best many years prior, and some have even been thereafter vindicated. All normal scientific stuff. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:30, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Her main point is that Sheldrake appeals to peoples desire to for faith in unproven claims dressed up in science rather than actual facts. That is NOT science - that is pseudoscience. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

A correction TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom - Susan Blackmore does not say that his science is wrong, she says his theory of MR is wrong. She clearly clarifies this at the top of the article. And that is her opinion, and it's written in an opinion article, not a scientific journal. She claims Sheldrake does not review the evidence, but Sheldrake makes the same claim for her. I don't feel comfortable about the article taking sides in an argument between two colleagues. And yes they are colleagues they both served as chair for Perrot Warrick. A theory might be wrong, but that does not make the theory, or the scientist who proposes it, pseudoscience. Going through the sources provided here, I've only seen two quotes so far that directly say it's pseudoscience. I might be missing one or two, but Is the status of this whole article resting on those two quotes? That seems like somewhat of a stretch. If Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist because of his work in parapsychology, then Blackmore is also a pseudoscientist. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 18:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake is a pseudoscientist because of the specific content and of his claims not because of the subject matter. jps (talk) 19:06, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not asking what an editor believes to be true, I am asking about the sources that support that belief. I'm not seeing anything special about the sources specifically mentioned that support the belief that Sheldrake performs pseudoscience. I found two so far. I'll ask the question again, is the entire status of this article resting on those sources? To an outsider, it looks like this article is resting on the assumptions of editors more than the sources provided. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You're assessment is correct. Some editors here have a very different view from the sources and want to include only those which support them and ignore the others altogether. Sheldrake's work has been called pseudoscience by a few people (including some scientists) but his work has been characterised as science by many more people (including many more scientists). Barleybannocks (talk) 20:13, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The list of "scientists" who support Rupert Sheldrake is full of alternative medicine practitioners, known pseudoscience apologists, and outright cranks. These are not reliable demarcators at all. In contrast, the sources who have plainly and simply dismissed the pseudoscience of Sheldrake are reliable, accomplished, and well-known scientists. This isn't a "he-said/she-said" game. We rightfully exclude the beliefs of crackpots as WP:UNDUE in spite of the nonsense credentialism of Sheldrake and his supporters on this page. jps (talk) 20:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Your spurious attack on many top-quality scientists is no reason to reject anything, let alone three sound sources which explicitly state he has received scientific support. It is not Misplaced Pages's job to right what you regard as a great societal wrong. These people are scientists, many are listed in Misplaced Pages as scientists, and for many of them, your previous comment, and similar ones above by others, will be the only time their status as scientists has ever been questioned. It's clear you don't like these facts, but facts they are. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The "attack" is simply an evaluation that your favorite sources are unreliable. Just because a scientist says you are a scientist doesn't make you a scientist especially not when your reputation is to swoon over pseudoscience. jps (talk) 22:42, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The sources are perfectly reliable. David F Haight , for example, writing in an academic a book published by the University Press of America. What is you problem with him and the publisher? Barleybannocks (talk) 22:46, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The publisher? That's not who is the source. The source is the author and who the hell is David F. Haight? Why should we believe him? jps (talk) 23:05, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He's a highly respected academic (that's who he is), and he's writing in an academic book. That's the kind of thing Misplaced Pages rules regards as a reliable source. Thus Misplaced Pages believes him. We should also believe him because two other reliable sources say the same thing and the evidence that what they say is true has been presented numerous times on the talk page. For example, The Journal of Consciousness Studies, a peer-reviewed scientific journal, devoting an entire issue to Sheldrake's scientific work, etc, etc.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

He is absolutely not a highly respected academic. He's a philosophy professor who is trying unsuccessfully to dabble in mathematics and science and promoting pseudoscience along the way. The Journal of Consciousness Studies is a pseudoscience magnet! It's laughable that you'd trumpet that as a standard of reliability. jps (talk) 23:21, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Have you sources for these defamatory attacks on Haight or is it all your own work? Likewise the appraisal of the JoCS Journal_of_Consciousness_Studies Barleybannocks (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Gotcha, Barleybannocks! This isn't a discussion of Haight or of the Journal. This is a discussion of Sheldrake. That you chose poor sources doesn't need to be sourced. We can simply identify that these are poor sources because the Journal in question is poorly considered in the academic community and Haight is simply not a well-known academic who has, additionally, been documented to have supported pseudoscience. Since we aren't writing articles about either of those two subjects, your Russian-nesting doll demand for more sources is just plainly tactics and willful ignorance of the reality that people who believe in the magic of consciousness are considered pseudoscientific yammerers by the wider mainstream community. Now, we can get back to figuring out how to describe this calmly and fairly or we can continue the WP:GAMEs. I bet I know which one you're in favor of. jps (talk) 23:32, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

You got nothing, let alone me. You made this into a discussion of Haight by asking why we should believe him. My answer was that he is a highly respected academic (I linked to his university page, which speaks of him in a very respectful tone). Your response was to attack a man you hadn't even heard of ten minutes ago. Thus, I am asking if there is any external source for the defamatory remarks you make about him, or whether they issue only from you, here, now.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:41, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Figure it out, you can stamp your feet in protest that Haight is awesome, but he's simply not a very good source for what you're trying to do. You can ask about sourcing on the talkpage for David F. Haight. jps (talk) 23:43, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if Haight is awesome - haven't met the man. What I do know is that he is exactly the type of source, writing in exactly the type of source, Misplaced Pages requires, and that to reject him as a source we need a lot more than some apparently unfounded defamatory remarks thought up by an editor here in the last half hour. If you have sources suggesting Haight is untrustworthy for come reason then please cite them, if not, then just inventing more defamatory stuff to go along with the first batch is pointless.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

How it works is you suggested a source. I pointed out problems (obscurity of the author, problematic promotionalism, lack of expertise). You must provide us with some reason that we should use an obscure professor from a minor institution who doesn't have any degrees in scientific fields; the onus is on you to make your case. It's not my responsibility to provide you with sources proving unreliability. That's the silly Russian-nesting dolls sourcing. Are you going to question the sources I dig up about Haight? No... this is essentially WP:CHEESE at this point. Get better sources is the name of the game. Haight's a bad source. jps (talk) 16:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I suggested three sources + around 10 sources that demonstrated the truth of those sources, and you invented some defamatory stuff about one person/source you've never heard of (with no source, and no basis in fact for your invention), and then demanded we reject the sources because you shouted some invented bad stuff often and loudly. Let's at least tell it how it is.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

You were the one who (problematically) chose Haight as your ace in the hole and then complained when I impeached the source. jps (talk) 18:18, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Parapsychology Source is Conflicting

In the lead section Sheldrake is described as a parapsychologist with two sources only. One source is a review of a lecture and does not claim Sheldrake is a parapsychologist, but just that he is now researching parapsychology, and the other source states specifically that Sheldrake is a well known biologist. If these are the only sources provided, they are vague and contradictory and should be either removed with proper ones supporting or the title of parapsychologist should be removed, as it's conflicting with primary and secondary sources. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

What do you think Sheldrake is if not a parapsychologist? jps (talk) 19:44, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake's belief in the possibility of telepathy follows directly from his theory of ontogeny. The man is a biologist, pure and simple, and that's how he's generally identified in secondary sources. Alfonzo Green (talk) 20:14, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not how the study of biology works. jps (talk) 20:52, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

biologists do not study telepathy. parapsychologists study telepathy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Not according to every source I could find, where there is no such academic position as "parapsychologist". At the Koestler Parapsychology Unit at Edinburgh University, there are no parapsychologists. Almost all the main staff are qualified psychologists. None of them identify as a "parapsychologist". The European Journal of Parapsychology, which was affiliated with the University of Derby, also included no staff that identified as a "parapsychologist". In related fields, such as consciousness research, the PEAR at Princeton University staff included aerospace scientists, psychologists, electrical engineers, and theoretical physicists. Again, not one identified as a "parapsychologist". The Division of Perceptual Studies at the U. Viginia also has staff qualified as psychologists, psychiatrists, and medical doctors, and no "parapsychologist". There also appears to be parapsychology research in at least a dozen universities in at least 6 countries, at which I found one "psychophysicist" in Hungary. I could find no parapsychologists, though many academic qualified across the spectrum, who do research in parapsychology. --Iantresman (talk) 21:35, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"Parapsychology researcher" would be acceptable. jps (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't believe Sheldrake isn't or is a parapsychologist, jps (talk), but I do believe the two sources that are being used to justify a Misplaced Pages article do not make that claim and are improperly sourced. I do believe that Sheldrake believes himself to be a biologist, as well as a number of secondary sources. It seems like an extraordinary leap and extraordinary claim to contradict a primary and secondary source with something as flimsy as those two references. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake cannot be used as a source for promotional claims about himself. So you can just factor those out of your calculations for what we should call him. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:23, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, but we do begin by looking at a primary source and see if it's supported by secondary sources, and if so, use the secondary sources. The primary source is a guide, the secondary source is a reference. Since secondary sources support a primary source - it would appear we would need an extraordinary argument to up seat that. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 22:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

It's interesting that one of the sources used for "parapsychologist" at no point refers to Sheldrake as a parapsychologist and instead refers to him as a "biologist", and yet it is used as a source for something it doesn't say and is not allowed to be used as a source for something it actually does say! Barleybannocks (talk) 22:40, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The actual term of art is up for grabs. Obviously, his stuff is categorically parapsychology. Whether that makes him a parapsychologist or not is semantics. jps (talk) 16:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

And since it's semantics, it's confusing and contradicts primary and secondary sources which are not confusing at all. This matter is easily fixed - 'Rupert Sheldrake is an x, y, and z - notable for his concept of morphic resonance and his research into telepathy in animals.' 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:14, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

The resolution described contributes nothing here: we should never call something scientific just to be nice. The issue here concerns contributors trying to reach a neutral draft despite strong differences in their own perspective. Any impermissible nastiness is only a side effect of the difficulties in doing so. I should emphasize that loaded terms like pseudoscience and parapsychologist need to be used only if well sourced, since they typically can only be determined post hoc. For example, it was long known that elephants could communicate with one another somehow over a distance of miles; then finally a researcher got involved who could hear the infrasound. If morphic resonance did turn out to be some kind of real thing, then the animal telepathy would be like the elephant telepathy. Otherwise, if it is not a real thing, people will say pseudoscience with confidence. I haven't done the reading to discuss the idea productively in relation to Sheldrake's publications, but some of the questions I've asked at the recently featured Talk:AdS/CFT correspondence may be related. Wnt (talk) 19:35, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

A fair point Wnt (talk). I believe the sources show, Rupert Sheldrake is researching 'claims' of unusual abilities in animals, such as homing pigeons or dogs that know when their owners are coming home. Investigating animal behaviors, even peculiar ones, would appear to be what biologists would do. I may be mistaken, I personally am not familiar too much with Sheldrake's work with animals, but his research is meant to show that the phenomenon of 'dogs knowing when their owners are coming home' is a bona fide phenomenon, not a claim that proves 'telepathy exists' or a claim that supernatural forces are at work. His theory may, or may not account for this phenomenon I have no idea, but to refer to him as a parapsychologist appears, on this page, as a way to discredit the man and present him as somewhat flakey. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 19:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

And one of the sources (Bekoff) used to support "parapsychologist" at no point mentions "parapsychology", or "parapsychologist", and instead call him a "well known biologist". As I understand the arguments of those who want to use this source for "parapsychologist": Bekoff (a biologist) isn't well enough qualified to be believed when he calls him a biologist, but his article can be used to support "parapsychologist" because that's what some here want to say (Bekoff not saying it, and saying "biologist" instead, being of no consequence).Barleybannocks (talk) 19:59, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Psychedelics

I think this explains a lot -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have always had a sneaking suspicion that this may be part of the game. There are a number of academics who are interested in psychedelics who support similar sorts of "spiritualist" ideas. Sheldrake never was at the Esalen_Institute, but many of his supporters were and his ideas strike me as being very similar to those that are associated with that. On the physics end, the Fundamental Fysiks Group has a number of psychedelic promoters who adopt extremely similar ideas to those of Sheldrake. Whether he is simply feeding off of their support or is actively engaged with their idea of taking LSD before you work on research is hard for me to say. I'd like to see more sources on this. jps (talk) 13:11, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Wait, did I say that Sheldrake was never at Esalen? That's not right: , , . Hmm... the plot thickens. jps (talk) 13:15, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Indian Ashram of Bede Griffiths publicly seem to prohibit the use of drugs (including Cigarettes and Alcohol) Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Rules posted in the 2010's do not necessarily reflect the rules and norms in the 70s. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I think we should include details of Sheldrake's use/advocacy/interest in psychedelics, as long as accurate sources can be found. What we should avoid, however, is moralising on this point and/or trying to score rhetorical points by insinuation. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

the above is Sheldrake himself speaking, in a dialogue with a friend published by a major publishing house. i dont think you can get any more "accurate" than that. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:00, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

So what would you like to include in the article? At one point Sheldrake lived somewhere which prohibited the use of alcohol/tobacco. To what end?Barleybannocks (talk) 15:28, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

of course not. but something along the lines of Sheldrake believes the use of psychedelic drugs "can reveal a world of consciousness and interconnection" which he says he has experienced. (http://books.google.com/books?id=uCF5SBj0EmUC&pg=PA75&dq=Rupert+psychedelics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_xmjUtrOLsSEyAHJ74DwAg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBA#v=snippet&q=%22Rupert%20%20I%20think%20that%20psychedelics%22&f=false) Voilà ! the essence of morphic fields.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:57, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with the Sheldrake quote, but your interpretation of its relevance is highly problematic. That is, we need to very careful here because, as I am sure you are aware, there is no mainstream view on psychedelic insights because with the exception of a only a few studies in recent years (which would be quite supportive of Sheldrake actually - eg, Rick Strassman, Roland Griffiths, and some work done in the 50s and 60s) psychedelic effects on consciousness have been completely off the scientific agenda for the last 50 years for legal reasons. Thus we should be very careful to avoid "war on drugs" moralising especially if it represented as some kind of informed scientific opinion.Barleybannocks (talk) 16:07, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Personally I feel VERY uncomfortable if this is used to frame the article one way or another. If Shelrake has published something on psychedelics or their usage, that's fair game. But to make an assumption that somehow 'This explains a lot' - is clear interpretation and personal research. If it does explain a lot, then it must also explain a lot about the success of the Apple Computer, or the discovery of the DNA molecule, or the success of Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band. Please, no interpretations here. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 18:51, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that we will need good sources on this if it is to be included. Let's see what people come up with. jps (talk) 19:04, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

PCR was also "discovered" by its inventor on LSD. People seem to forget that in the late 1950s and into the early 1970s, professionals from many different disciplines experimented with psychedelics in an attempt to gain insight into their work. This was legal into the mid 1960s. Furthermore, the connection between the dream state and scientific discovery is well established in the history of science literature, so this is nothing new or shocking. Legal creativity research in the late 1960s made use of psychedelics and this is covered in detail by many reliable sources. I'm not entirely sure what the consensus of the research results were, but I recall someone saying something along the lines of the drugs merely eliciting what the subjects already had in mind and allowing them to bring it to the surface. Huxley and others were opposed to Leary for this reason–they believed that only the most intelligent and accomplished could benefit from it, and it would be wasted on the unwashed masses. Viriditas (talk) 08:15, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

As this 2012 article shows, managed use of psychedelics may have value:Psychedelic Drug May Have a Role in Psychotherapy This does not appear to be far out of line from Trpod's reference.

I do hope you all include in the article that he was a druggie so that there will be no remaining doubt to the public that Misplaced Pages editors are doing all they can to smear Sheldrake's name. Tom Butler (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

because repeating Sheldrakes self admission of the relevance of Psychedelics to his concepts is somehow an attack? get fucking real. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

fixed that for you. let's be civil. 23.241.74.200 (talk) 18:39, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

There are phenomena such as contact high and shared hallucination that are very much real, and quite interesting, so anything you can extract to help explain Rupert's ideas is worthwhile. (myself, I got a "restricted page" following that link - I gotta go spend an hour and write a proxy to put someplace, this is ridiculous) Wnt (talk) 19:45, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Grammar Error?

Part of the article states:

"Sheldrake debated biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy..."

It should read:

"Sheldrake debated with the biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy..."

or

"Sheldrake debated with biologist Lewis Wolpert on the existence of telepathy...

One debates a subject, not a person. One debates "with" or "against" a person. Baby English even to a Swede!

Kind regards 213.66.81.80 (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

debate 11) to engage in formal argumentation or disputation with (another person, group, etc.): Jones will debate Smith. Harvard will debate Princeton. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/re+debate 89.110.2.152 (talk) 02:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

With respect, the example you give has no subject and is limited to U.S English. The following entries from the same dictionary provide further clarification where there is a subject, in U.S. English (using link above)

9. to argue or discuss (a question, issue, or the like), as in a legislative or public assembly: They debated the matter of free will.

10. to dispute or disagree about: The homeowners debated the value of a road on the island.

12. to deliberate upon; consider: He debated his decision in the matter.

The Oxford dictionary is not inconsistent with my point:

• For British and World English, see http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/debate
• For "American" English, see http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/debate

The following seems to clarify:

1. to enter into a long and disciplined discussion on a particular subject with someone. Our team debated with the other team about the chances for world peace. The candidates debate about taxes tomorrow. We will debate with them about health care. (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/american_english/debate)

Regards 213.66.81.80 (talk) 14:46, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Explanation of edits 2

The RfC proposal has been archived; some text below has been lifted from it.

There are a significant number of sources that support intelligent design, some written by professors from respected institutions. Why doesn't the Evolution article mention that evolution has a rival called intelligent design that "enjoys a small handful of academic support"? According to WP:NPOV, shouldn't this significant minority viewpoint be expressed in the article? No, because ArbCom has decided that Misplaced Pages aims to be a serious encyclopedia with a scientific focus.

• Serious encyclopedias: Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work.
• Scientific focus: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and its content on scientific and quasi-scientific topics will primarily reflect current mainstream scientific consensus.

Intelligent design does have significance as a social phenomenon (it is mentioned in the Social and cultural responses section of the Evolution article), but it has no scientific significance.

It seems to me that the present conflicts with the Sheldrake article are solved by asking: What is the view of mainstream science? Is it the view of mainstream science that "morphic resonance" has some "academic support"? This is not the case. Is it the view of mainstream science that telepathy, "morphic fields", and the "sense of being stared at" are part of the field of biology? This is not the case either.

Playing source-counting games is poor practice. The article on Evolution was not informed by counting the number of reliable sources, in scorecard fashion, that either support or deny evolution. But even if we play these counting games, the claim that more sources call Sheldrake a biologist is a questionable one. By a ratio of 3 to 1, the number of Google Scholar hits of "Rupert Sheldrake" that mention neither "biologist" nor "biochemist" outnumber the hits that mention either "biologist" or "biochemist". (The ratio is much higher for regular Google web hits, though these results are not as interesting.) Remember that this is only about what Sheldrake is presently called in the first sentence of the article. No effort has been or will be made to erase Sheldrake's position as a Cambridge biochemist until 1973, as described in the second sentence of the article.

Morphic resonance falls under

• Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.

The article should therefore contain this information and be so categorized.

Using in-text attribution of quotes from specific scientists to suggest that an idea is less marginal than it actually is in the scientific community runs afoul of WP:PSCI and WP:GEVAL, which are part of WP:NPOV.

Repeated violations of the aforementioned ArbCom decisions -- which seems to have happened already -- should be taken up with Arbitration Enforcement (WP:AE). vzaak 05:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

vzaak, we do in fact have sources stating that Sheldrake has limited academic support. You appear to have removed those sources from the article along with the statement they supported. This is a violation of WP:NPOV. Please do not repeat this action. With the newly added sentence sourced to Gardner and Sharma followed by the one on Wolpert and Rutherford, there's too much anti-Sheldrake sentiment clogging his biography. It's unbalanced, and it won't stand. As to WP:PSCI, citing this here assumes that morphic resonance is pseudoscience, but we don't know that. It's certainly not the opinion of the overwhelming majority of secondary sources, most of whom refer to Sheldrake as a legitimate scientist even if they think his hypothesis is wrong. WP:GEVAL would apply only if we were discussing a mainstream scientific topic, as opposed to the biography page of the originator of a radical hypothesis. This is why the evolution article has no bearing on this discussion. Alfonzo Green (talk) 04:27, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Since the old citations are now gone, I should point out sources such as

• Nature -- "former biochemist and plant physiologist at the University of Cambridge who has taken up parapsychology"
• Nature -- "parapsychologist"
• New Scientist -- "biochemist-turned-parapsychologist"
• New Republic -- "pseudoscientist"

If the counting game is employed to argue that Sheldrake should be called a biologist in the first sentence instead of the second sentence, then I will point to the counting method above which favors the opposite. If we rightfully abandon the counting game and look to ArbCom principles, then we find the strongest and most prestigious sources representing mainstream science, in which case Nature wins. (Remember, again, that he's called a biologist in the second sentence.) vzaak 07:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You've clearly done the work to cite him as a parapsychologist according to sources, though a step of indirection analogous to the sources ("has taken up parapsychology") may still be appropriate. That does not, however, refute him as a biologist assuming there are some sources lying around for that. Just as a person can be a Muslim and a physicist, someone can be a parapsychologist and a biologist; there is (or should be) no loyalty test. Wnt (talk) 07:44, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Again with the circular discussion, so I'll put in the requisite comment. If he is a scientist, show us his scientific work. The publications, the criticism (meant in its classic sense) the collaborations, the citations, the discussions, the follow-up work, the other scientists in the field, the awards, the acclaim of peers etc. etc. I point you to the huge gaping and above all - empty - vacuum. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 09:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I am not aware of any peer reviewed journal articles, despite Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) noble but ultimately baseless attempt to pretend that pseudojournals are peer reviewed. Barney the barney barney (talk) 10:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Please try to gain consensus for the edits. The arguments above are absurd. We have multiple reliable sources for each of the claims which, in addition, are clearly true. Removing this well sourced biographical information to do down Sheldrake is not appropriate for a BLP. If you have problems with the sources, then please explain what they are here. Barleybannocks (talk) 10:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The problems with your arguments. The first argument above above intelligent design and how it should feature in the evolution article is of no consequence here, because to continue the analogy, this is the article about ID and not evolution. Therefore it is wholly inappropriate to note in the article about evolution that ID has academic support. That is, it would be inappropriate to cite Sheldrake's academic support in the article on morphogenesis, but absolutely appropriate here. With regard to counting sources to see how many times he's called a biologist as opposed to not being called a biologist, so what? Unless Sheldrake changed his name to Rupert Sheldrake Biologist, it would be extraordinary for this word to appear every time his name does. I note you apply no such counting rule with regards to any of the other things you want to call Sheldrake and so this seems like an ad hoc criterion dreamed up to justify the exclusion of dozens of very reliable sources in favour of the opinions of editors here. Barleybannocks (talk) 10:34, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

With regard to the repeated request for the evidence that Sheldrake's work has had some scientific impact in virtue of further work by other scientists, I will once again, eg, cite the fact that the peer-reviewed Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted an entire issue to the work of Sheldrake. This is a plain fact. And it, in addition to the other sources cited above about the interest in his work by, eg, David Bohm, and Stuart Hameroff, means the other sources that talk of a small degree of academic support are not only good enough to be included in virtue of being reliable sources making a claim, but also because the claim they make is obviously true. Barleybannocks (talk) 11:40, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted an entire issue to the work of Sheldrake in which it specifically DROPPED any formal peer review. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Even if what you say is true (source/evidence?), it still shows Sheldrake's work having generated interest within the academic community which is what the journal having done that was evidence for. There are also the numerous academic books, and the supporting articles/letters/reviews etc, all cited above, which demonstrates the truth of the claim that the three supplied sources state plainly: that Sheldrake's work has garnered a small amount of support from within academia (rather than simply being confined to new-age devotees as the article currently misleads the reader).Barleybannocks (talk) 14:21, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

] / beginning on page 8 "

Firstly, the "peer-review" was published in the journal alongside Sheldrake's articles. secondly, and in any event, you seem to be confused about the claims being made here. The claim is not that Sheldrake's work was peer-reviewed in this particular instance in the normal way. The claim here is that the existence of the Journal issue devoted to Sheldrake, along with things like the editorial comment "The willingness of fourteen respected commentators to join this discussion of Rupert Sheldrake’s papers and offer a variety of reflections — most of them a robust mixture of criticism and encouragement...", shows some degree of support and interest from within the academic community. In that respect, then, it is just one more piece of supporting evidence demonstrating the truth of the point made in the three sources which you removed from a BLP because you don't like this fact being made known to readers.Barleybannocks (talk) 15:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

What I dont fucking like and will not stand for is a misrepresentation in the article that presents Sheldrakes nonsense as having any measurable level of support in the mainstream academic community. It is an extraordinary claim to suggest that mainstream academia supports his magic theories and requires extraordinary sources to be present to support such content.. And I dont fucking like is you making assumptions about what I fucking like. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:11, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

There is support as documented in multiple reliable sources. Thus, whether you like it or not is of no real consequence (I only mention it because that's what your argument appears to amount to and nothing more). I'd also be grateful if could refrain from the constant swearing at people, it doesn't make your arguments any better and it just raises the temperature here when we are only discussing the biography of a scientist - not some life or death issue.Barleybannocks (talk) 16:26, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You do not have extraordinary sources supporting the extraordinary claims, you have some off-hand comments cherry picked and being used out of context. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:14, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

It shows that 14 people were interested. Not even a negligible portion of the academic mainstream. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Easily enough, though, given the other sources, to show that there has been a small degree of support for Sheldrake rom academia - as was stated in the reliably sourced claim you removed from a BLP because you don't want people to find out about these facts.Barleybannocks (talk) 15:39, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

THERE ARE NOT EVEN ENOUGH SHELDRAKINS FOR THERE TO BE A "MAINSTREAM" SET OF BELIEVERS FROM WHICH TO PULL A PEER REVIEW TEAM FOR THE SPECIAL ARTICLE!!!!!. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:45, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You still miss the point. The point is that we have solid reliable sources which say Sheldrake has received a small degree of support from within academia, and we have incontrovertible evidence of the existence of that support. Thus, there is no reason, other than you don't like this fact, to exclude it from the article about Sheldrake. It is clearly relevant, and clearly necessary to the accurate portrayal of the man and his work (which is, after all, what an encyclopaedia article about the man and his work should aim to be). Barleybannocks (talk) 15:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Keep up your WP:TE pushing to suggest there is any measurable level of academic support and you are headed for AE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Just pointing out what reliable sources say. That's the gold standard on Misplaced Pages. Even more important in a BLP. As for measurable - it is a small degree, which is well sourced and obviously true. No one is trying to pretend the mainstream scientific community has endorsed it - it hasn't. But it has garnered a small degree of interest and support as noted in the sources. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:47, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

to pretend that the dozen or so people identified are a measurable enough even identify as a "small set of followers" particularly in the lead is a gross and unacceptable misrepresentation . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:39, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, regarding intelligent design it doesn't matter whether we are talking about the Evolution article or the intelligent design article. Both articles must reflect the ArbCom principles above. But taking your point anyway, the article on intelligent design does not have words in the lead to the effect of "intelligent design enjoys a small handful of academic support", despite the significant number of sources that support intelligent design, some written by professors from respected institutions.

Arbitration principles and arbitration enforcement were designed to address this very situation. For an idea that falls under generally considered pseudoscience, repeatedly attempting to subvert that designation goes against arbitration principles and should trigger arbitration enforcement. vzaak 15:18, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Vzaak, you couldn't be more wrong. Here's why: if what you say is true then we should give Sheldrake and his views the same amount of space in this article as he/it gets in the article on morphogenesis. But if we did there would be no Sheldrake article at all. That is, we would have an article about Sheldrake and his work that doesn't mention Sheldrake and his work. That's a ludicrous idea and it shows how wayward your reading of policy is. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

(1) None of the sources above stating "former biochemist" "parapsychologist", etc, are peer-reviewed. The Maddox quote calling Sheldrake's work "an exercise in pseudo-science" is also not peer-reviewed, and neither are any of the sources calling Sheldrake's work pseudoscience, except Rose in Riv. Biol./Biol. The point is that peer-review is not essential for a view to be described.

(2) While the Journal of Consciousness Studies did not peer review Sheldrake's article before publication, it subjected them to public "open peer review" after publication, where 14 people acted as referees, instead of the usual two. The journal did not "drop formal peer reviewed", it used a different peer review process, "open peer review".

(3) WP:DUE tells us that "In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint .. these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint". Undue weight has nothing to do with how much space we give views, but how we use prose to frame them. --Iantresman (talk) 15:45, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh come on. The "open peer review" in that special issue is as much pseudo peer review as morphic resonance is pseudo science. ie. 110%. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:53, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

That's clearly your opinion, but the scientific status, or at the very least the arguably scientific status, is supported by reference to dozens of reliable sources. in any event, again you miss the main point, which is that this Journal issue demonstrates the truth of the well-sourced claims about academic (nothing about peer-reviewed) support that you removed from a BLP because you don't want readers to know about these facts. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:58, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Even Nature has trailed "open peer review", who do not share your views. --Iantresman (talk) 16:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

show me a source that says the "open peer review" in the Sheldrake JoC issue is anything but a sham. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, I'm trying to understand your above comment, but I'm honestly unable to do so. To revisit the overall point, we may document the curiosity and social support that Sheldrake attracts, but this does not amount to scientific support for morphic resonance, which is what "academic support" suggests. We may also include responses to what some consider over-reactions, for instance even Sheldrake's nemesis Steven Rose expressed dislike of the book-burning reference. vzaak 15:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Vzaak, we have three reliable sources stating plainly that there is a small degree of academic/scientific support for Sheldrake's ideas - specifically, in the case of the three sources in question, morphic resonance. Thus it doesn't matter one iota if you disagree - the sources are what (should) count here. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:02, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the degree of academic support for Sheldrake's morphic resonance is similar to the number of people who call it pseudoscience? Is that a small degree, or is that more significant? --Iantresman (talk) 16:06, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

It's non-existent. Let's stop trying to pretend otherwise. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

No, it does exist. And its existence is noted in multiple reliable sources. Thus we have both the claim (well sourced) and the evidence the claim is true. By contrast, against these sources we have your very poor argument. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:19, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

OK. Can you guess where this is headed Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)? I ask you for peer reviewed sources. You complain about having answered this question before and produce a list of "supporters", thus failing to address the question), and point to a very small number of articles in some psuedojournals. We point out they aren't peer reviewed. You try to argue that they are, and fail, but always must have the last word, because the person who says the last word wins regardless of whether or not what they said was insightful. Right? Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:27, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not that bothered who gets the last word. On Misplaced Pages, the last word should really go to the sources, and we have multiple reliable sources that are being excluded from a BLP because you and others don't want readers to know the facts they detail about the subject of the article and his work. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:32, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted an open peer reviewed issue to Shreldrake's work that included contributions for academics. I know of no source that suggests this is a "pseudojournal". Unfortunately I don't have access to their papers, so can't assess them. I suggests that Rose is one of the only peer-reviewed papers that suggests his work "has many of the characteristics of such pseudosciences" (refuted by Sheldrake), but do we have any more peer reviewed sources that suggest his work is either pseudoscience of rejected? --Iantresman (talk) 17:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, there are many more sources supporting intelligent design than morphic resonance, so why doesn't the article on intelligent design mention in the lead that "intelligent design enjoys a small handful of academic support"? According to WP:NPOV, this significant minority view must be expressed, right? Please review the ArbCom principles above and think about those questions. vzaak 16:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

I should emphasize again that Sheldrake certainly has support from those disillusioned with the current state of science -- New Agers, even some scientists, etc. -- and the article should certainly mention that. This is distinguished from the scientific support for morphic resonance, for which there is none. The Adam Lucas article you are touting says that "the actual 'scientific' response" to Sheldrake's work "has been virtually zero", which is exactly the point. vzaak 16:59, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

On ID: it's unclear whether there are mainstream sources which say ID has garnered a small degree of academic support (we have three such sources for Sheldrake). It's also, as a movement with prominent proponents almost all from academia, not so clear such a point needs to be made, not so clear there are any outside the movement itself. Neither are the scientific credentials of its proponents being suppressed the way Sheldrake's are. All in all it's a completely different article subject and what goes for one need not go for the other. Nonetheless, while were in 'let's compare articles' mode, I note that Sam Harris is an American author, philosopher and neuroscientist. Academic philosophy posts/qualifications? Neuroscience posts?

On New Age devotees only, that's yout opinion about everyone who supports him, but it's not at all clear it's true by any stretch of the imagination (eg, Paul Davies to name but one we have a source for). Re Lucas, you're twisting the source. The source says there has been virtually zero in the way of government funded research efforts, but clearly states in numerous places a small degree of support from scientists and other academics.

One might also say that the article currently gives the impression that the scientific community have rigorously examined Sheldrake's theories in the normal scientific manner when nothing is further from the truth. That is, Sheldrake's ideas have been rejected largely a priori. The article should, imo, make this distinction lest people think that the critical views are actually the result of the scientific method as opposed to what is largely armchair criticism. Many sources make something like this point. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa. I said "New Agers, even some scientists, etc.", which you transmogrified into "New Age devotees only". I was in fact referring to Davies, Gribbin, etc. there. I also said that should "certainly" be mentioned. Again, this is distinguished from scientific support for morphic resonance, for which there is none.

Re "rigorously examined Sheldrake's theories", this kind of argument has been brought up many times on this talk page. There are no research grants awarded to determine if something is pseudoscience. In some cases people have come close to demanding that a vote must be convened among all the scientists in the world in order to determine whether something is pseudoscience. If that were the case then nothing could be called pseudoscience.

Please review the ArbCom principles above, and it can't hurt to read WP:ARB/PS as well. Repeatedly subverting the status of morphic resonance as generally considered pseudoscience should cause sanctions. Arbitration enforcement was tailor-made for this problem. vzaak 17:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, the text that way removed from the article was "academic support" and not "scientific support". I have no objections to changing this to "garnered some support from scientists and academics". With regard to "new agers" versus "new age devotees" I doiubt there is much difference. Secondly, it also seems highly disingenuous to be talking about people like Brian Josephson (a physics Nobel Laureate), Paul Davies and John Gribbin as New Agers. Their articles make no such claim. Unsure why we should portray them in that way in this article. Finally, it's also made more disingenuous by following up the false claim with the quote from Deepak Chopra, the "new age guru", about religion that refers to nothing discussed in the body of the article except the repetition of that quote. Hardly a suitable point, then, for the lede.Barleybannocks (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Um, what? I guess you misinterpreted my statement that tried to undo your misinterpretation. I was taking umbrage that you transmogrified "New Agers, even some scientists, etc." into "New Age devotees" not because of the distinction between "New Agers" and "New Age devotees" (hardly any), but because you clipped the "even some scientists" part. I was not saying the scientists were New Agers. Those are separate things. New Agers. Scientists. This misinterpretation is frankly weird to me.

The Chopra point is weird to me as well, since it's a damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't situation. The addition of Chopra's support to the lead was seen as positive. This is the first time I've seen it called "disingenuous". I don't know what that means in this context. Similarly, the addition of the "Notes" section was considered very good by all parties, but now is a "cheap shot". vzaak 18:52, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, until "scientists" is in the article rather than only on the talk page, and until you stop removing it and replacing it with "new age" only, every time someone adds it, it seems disingenuous to claim that your view supports/takes account of this fact. That is, in this case your actions on the article speak much more loudly, and much more clearly, than your words on talk. Re Chopra, who would you rather have as your supporter - a Nobel LKaureate in Physics or a "new age guru". And following on from the point about his support being new age only, it's clear what the insinuation is here. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:57, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Um, what? When did I replace "scientists" with "new age"? And I did so repeatedly? And you are really accusing me of calling Paul Davies a New Ager? This is all extremely weird, and I advise you to stop making unfounded allegations and start focusing on the article. vzaak 19:20, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Um, this edit here is where you most recently removed from the introduction the well-sourced mention of academic support for Sheldrake and retained only the false claim that his support has only come from the new age movement. It's also the edit where you removed the extraordinarily well-sourced fact that Sheldrake is a biologist.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:37, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not replacing "scientists" with "new age", and you haven't told me about the repeated times. In any case, please drop the accusations and focus on content, not individuals. As is well-explained above, "academic support" is misleading, which was why it was removed. In our discussion here, I've already indicated that it may be fair to mention support from individuals like Lovelock (who doesn't necessarily think morphic resonance is real but seems to appreciate Sheldrake's general outlook), as distinguished from the non-existent scientific support of morphic resonance. It's only a matter of deciding how to do that appropriately. vzaak 20:10, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

It's removing all mention of any academic support (including that of scientists) and replacing it with the claim that his support coming only from those in the new age movement. That is, you know Brian Josephson, David Bohm, Paul Davies, and others have offered some support for Sheldrake's idea, and you know the sources that you removed from the article were referring to this scientific/academic support (or did you remove them without reading them or the extensive discussion about them above). Thus, in the context of this discussion, it's very clear what I was referring to (the section is about your edits after all): it is you removing, regularly, any reference, however well-sourced, which gives any indication of support for Sheldrake from non new age devotees. If you took me to be saying you were going through the article replacing the word "scientists" with "new age" then I apologise for any confusion. My point was about your removal of multiple reliable sources from the article referencing Sheldrake's academic support - sources which show your favoured version to be false. I trust all is now clear. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:54, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - you are right, and wrong. It is probably a fault to characterise all Sheldrake's supporters as new agers, and this should be avoided. However, your insistence that there is academic support for Sheldrake's key idea is just very, very, wrong. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, you appear not to be able to distinguish me from multiple reliable sources. It's not my insistence, it's what's written in those sources. Three different sources all saying effectively the same thing. And when we check the world, we see it matches their description of it in this respect (thus Bohm, Davies, Josephson, Bekoff etc). An thus we have the phrase "a small degree of academic support" to summarise this important point in an encyclopaedic manner. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:24, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - I can easily tell "you" apart from a handful of poor quality and therefore irrelevant sources. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

One of them is already used in the article, perhaps you should remove it if you really believe it's not up to Misplaced Pages standards. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:51, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, after all this discussion it's still not clear whether you understand the reason for removing "academic support". At least you seem to continue arguing as if you don't understand. This is particularly apparent in your saying that my reference to "actual 'scientific' response" in the Lucas article was twisting the source. Government-sponsored research is exactly the kind of thing which would indicate that morphic resonance is being taken seriously. Any kind of significant research with scientific articles in mainstream journals would do, actually.

We have to make the distinction between (a) actual, nonfictional, impactful scientific support for morphic resonance and (b) Ecologists and Templeton-prize-winning physicists who unsurprisingly liked Rebirth of Nature. If (a) were true then Sheldrake would be one of the greatest discoverers in the history of all humankind. We have to distinguish between (a) and (b). Do you understand why that is important? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just want to get everyone on the same page here. vzaak 23:00, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

So you think "a small degree of academic support" surrounded by lengthy caveats including terms like "pseudoscience" and immediately preceded by "Sheldrake has received a largely critical, even derisive, reception from the scientific community" will leave anyone thinking "Sheldrake would be one of the greatest discoverers in the history of all humankind". Seriously? Not sure which page you're on. Not sure which book.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:14, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You've failed to gain consensus for any version thus far. Time to work productively with those whose views are not your own, or drop the stick. If you have not done either within 7 days, I will ask for a topic ban. Guy (Help!) 00:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, where's the consensus for the current version? There is none. And I'm not the only one who objects. There are three here who object (and there's only three because most of the other neutral editors claimed they were were bullied off the article). Secondly, just so I can be sure about Wiki policy: how many editors' opinions does it take to override multiple reliable sources? Barleybannocks (talk) 00:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Rupert Sheldrake has been the victim of a vicious and sustained attack. So I guess the witch hunt against those who would treat him fairly on Misplaced Pages shouldn't be any surprise. Alfonzo Green (talk) 06:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Since cutting and pasting my previous responses would seem rude, I had taken the liberty of using inventive phrases to describe the same thing. Sheldrake being "one of the greatest discoverers in the history of all humankind" is a stand-in for morphic resonance having no scientific support. It is yet still unclear whether or not the basic point has been successfully communicated. Do you understand that the scientific status of morphic resonance should not be misrepresented? vzaak 02:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the problem is forcing an absolutely black/white distinction onto things. Consider: Sheldrake's ideas have zero support from scientists and nobody thinks any aspect of them is any good; Sheldrake's ideas have garnered some support from a few scientists but only in a very limited sense; Sheldrake's ideas have garnered some support from some scientists who think some aspects of what he is saying may prove valuable; Sheldrake's ideas have garnered some support from scientists who think his work will be ground-breaking; Sheldrake's work has garnered moderate support from scientists even though they feel the idea lacks evidence at present; and then 100 more along the way before we get to, Sheldrake's ideas are universally accepted and he is considered a giant of science. Now, if the only options are the first and last, then the last is nearer to the mark, but we are not confined to those options. We can pick the most appropriate from a spectrum of possible views. Thus the situation we actually have regards Sheldrake seems to me to be between the second and third option offered above. And a similar spectrum of views is possible for both the psuedoscience/science question, and the question of support, or lack thereof, for Sheldrake even by those who think his ideas are probably wrong. No need for the article to misrepresent any of this by enforcing false dichotomies and then picking a winner and only allowing that one viewpoint to feature.Barleybannocks (talk) 12:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

From the sidelines, I have seen no consensus for any edits to the article in a long, long time, if ever. I HAVE seen a lot of name calling, condescension, bullying, questioning of sources, etc. that impede any progress toward consensus. There is absolutely none of "I propose this edit; what do people think?", followed by polite rational discussion and formation of consensus. Lou Sander (talk) 04:02, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Lou. It would be nice if Sheldrake supporters would stop this type of thing --Roxy the dog (resonate) 05:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Is there a time limit?

Somehow the above has gotten kind of heated, discussing his recent non-scientific publications. The question I'd ask is, is there any kind of support for the idea of a "former" biochemist? Has someone set a time limit where his status expires? Is there some rule that says he can only say so many outrageous things before they throw him out? Because I'm not aware of any such, the point as it stands now is that he is a biochemist who publishes (according to some good sources) about parapsychology. That's not a contradiction. A person can believe much crazier things than that, even common religious dogmas, and still remain a scientist. Wnt (talk) 18:43, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Is 30 years not long enough for you? Moreoever why would we choose to deliberately mislead the reader? Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

But Barney, dozens of reliable sources contradict your non-sourced opinion about Sheldrake's status as a scientist (it's over 25 sources at my last count - zero explicitly against). The zero against being hardly surprising since no such distinction exists in the wider world. The distinction, and the arguments, being entirely limited to this talk page. I think this explains Wnt's perplexity at the things he is seeing here.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:56, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

No, there are several that identify him as a confirmed former botanist. We've told you why newspaper editors go for 1-word descriptions, we have a little bit more room to be accurate. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:07, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Sources?Barleybannocks (talk) 23:17, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

You are straying into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT territory. Now would be a good time to cease this obdurate refusal to demand proof of the obvious majority view to your satisfaction. Guy (Help!) 00:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

It will all be settled before the WP:DEADLINE. Sheldrake fans of course want is to please him 'right now but that won't happen. Guy (Help!) 23:46, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

"We've told you why newspaper editors go for 1-word descriptions, we have a little bit more room to be accurate." Ummmmm, isn't that kinda the opposit of our WP:RS policy and more akin to the folly described in our WP:TRUTH essay? I'm just sayin'. David in DC (talk) 00:14, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The subject of "Sheldrake fans" or, less politely, "fanbois" keeps coming up. One wonders how a person identifies a Sheldrake fan. Lou Sander (talk) 04:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Its easy, they're the ones that think he's a scientist. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 05:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

This polarization is unnecessary. I mean, consider something like his current Ten Dogmas claim that "Contemporary science is based on the claim that all reality is material or physical. There is no reality but material reality. Consciousness is a by-product of the physical activity of the brain. Matter is unconscious. Evolution is purposeless. This view is now undergoing a credibility crunch." Why doesn't he deserve fair credit for calling out the mainstream on its own pseudoscientific beliefs? The fact is, there's not one bit of evidence, anywhere, explaining why chemical reactions in a brain matter more than chemical reactions in a stale beer. That's not to say the two are the same, but ... we don't have a theory to explain it. And if we don't have a theory to explain it, why be in such a rush to shut somebody up who wants to maunder on about it? Maybe he'll hit on something interesting. There's a balance between creativity and rational thought, and he's got it turned up more than a bit high, but you never know. There are people who play Lotto - I'd rather listen to stuff like this now and then and see if anything sticks out. Wnt (talk) 05:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe he does have something. But you know what, you can bet on his crazy ideas maybe coming up with something but I am going to bet on the actual scientists. But neither of our beliefs have anything to do with the article. What matters there is that we WP:VALIDly represent what the mainstream academics think (and they are placing their bets with me)-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Of course. I just think it will improve the tone here if people remember that he doesn't have to be biologist or parapsychologist, and his ideas don't all have to be uniformly pseudoscience or science or something in between. We should be sure to feature both commentary that is positive and that is negative wherever both exist, without choosing between one and the other. Wnt (talk) 09:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:VALID again. what we need to do is show how his ideas are received by the mainstream academia- as a hot gooey mess.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 12:41, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and that can be dealt with in about one hundred rather than thousands of words. There is nothing that says we have to devote almost the entire article to critical commentary, nor that we need to try to demonstrate, rather than merely state, the view of the mainstream. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Exactly what would be the benefit to the encyclopedia or the reader not to present the full picture? I have never seen an article where the goal of the editing team was to make the article less informative.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

It would be representing the full picture. It would be representing, eg, the mainstream view by describing the mainstream view accurately and succinctly (thus leaving no reader in doubt and leaving some room for Sheldrake) rather than by merely re-enacting the most hostile reactions over and over again to the point where the subject of the article barely features (thus leaving the reader hopelessly uninformed about the real subject of the article). Barleybannocks (talk) 13:48, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

HUH? how the fuck is providing LESS information about how the mainstream views the proposals as complete hooey and why they do presenting the FULL picture???? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting you do that. But the first editing I did on the article was to get rid of the 'Notes' section, which was an unnecessary copy of those arguments. Even so, what I left behind was still just another duplicate section in the sense that every single reference was of the <ref somename /> format. We really could get rid of some of that; much of the time in these articles it is sufficient to cite a source one time in one place, suck all the content we want from it right there in a couple of sentences, and move on. By all means, cite every source that says his arguments are flawed but you don't have to hit us over the head with it. Wnt (talk) 16:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - we are not asking for "one hundred" "thousands" of words. We are asking for about four; "author", "parapsychologist", "former" and "biologist", or suitable and appropriate variations thereon. You want to use a single word which misrepresents both (1) what he's notable for and (2) endorses his activities as scientific. Barney the barney barney (talk) 13:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I don't want to use a single word. I'm happy with "biologist, parapsychologist and author" because the first and the last are exceptionally well sourced and the middle term can, I believe, be well-sourced although the sources have not yet been provided. Anyway, on the point of this discussion, it's about the appropriate way for an article about a particular subject to be structured. If you have any comments on that then there is space below for them. Barleybannocks (talk) 13:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I fear my comments will be better received and better in line with policy than yours Barleybannocks (talk · contribs). But anyway, you don't want to use the word "former". Let's get to the heart of this matter - why is this? Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Because it's largely without a source or is poorly sourced (the sources I've seen are in some cases making a slightly different point, eg, "former Cambridge biologist", and others can't be read so we don't know what's in them), whereas "biologist" is massively well sourced (we have dozens already, form every conceivable kind of source, and it's not too much of a stretch to think 100 could be produced if necessary). For example, "Rupert Sheldrake, (a) biologist" gives 126,000 hits on Google whereas "Rupert Sheldrake, (a) former biologist" returns zero. Rough and ready I grant you, but nonetheless... Barleybannocks (talk) 14:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Another search for "Rupert Sheldrake" returns 684,000 results - what is your point? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 14:20, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the point is clear: Misplaced Pages shouldn't be about the only source in the world that describes Sheldrake in this singular fashion.Barleybannocks (talk) 14:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You mean apart from the others that do so, which Vzaak (talk · contribs) has pointed out? This is surely the most egregious case of WP:IDONTHEARYOU around, don't you think Barleybannocks (talk · contribs)? Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The sources I have seen so far cited are either unsupportive (at best ambiguous) inasmuch as they say "former biologist/biochemist at Cambridge" or "former Cambridge biologist", which suggests that "former" is as much, or possibly more, about him being no longer associated with the institution (Cambridge University) in that capacity than it is about him no longer being a biologist. And when this is contrasted with the literally dozens of sources that say "biologist" there seems no reason, none given so far, to make Misplaced Pages the only googleable source that uses this singular phrase with regard to Sheldrake and being a biologist. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:01, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

A reminder

For something to be included in the article it must be:

• verifiable
• Supported by reliable independent sources.

To be included in the lede, it must also be judged to be significant by those sources.

A few scientists support morphic resonance, that is true and can go in the article. If you want the fact that a few people support it to go in the lede, you need a reliable independent source that not only says it, but says that it is a generally accepted fact that a few scientists support it.

That's all you need. A reliable independent source, of recognisable stature, that makes the claim that minority scientific support is a significant fact. Guy (Help!) 00:26, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Since as you say, "a few scientists support morphic resonance", and this is, by your own admission "true and can go in the article", and since others above have been disputing this or days after sources were provided with all sorts of tortuous arguments, perhaps you should caution them rather than me. Also, with regards your second point about a source saying something is significant, where does that requirement come from? It certainly doesn't seem to apply to any of the other things in the lede. Is this part of some policy or guideline? The point under discussion would seem to be clearly significant, no? Barleybannocks (talk) 00:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE it is inappropriate to present as a major aspect of Sheldrake the very remote and minor "support" he has received from a very small handful of actual scientists in the mainstream by calling it out in the lead. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

As TRPoD points out, the issue is not whether it can go in the article, but whether it can go in the lede as you insist. I have shown you how to persuade people, now all you need to do is produce the required sources. Or, you know, drop it. Guy (Help!) 16:35, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The lede is a summary

Arguably, putting references in the lede is not a good idea. The references should be in the article and the lede, like the abstract of a paper, should be a summary of the article. Putting references in the lede is not objectionable, per se, but it is poor form to argue that every sentence in the WP:LEDE should be cited. As long as there is a citation in the body of the work, we're up to snuff. jps (talk) 12:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Things that should be in the article

I note from Roszak's review (second paragraph), that on the publication of A New Science of Life, "many" scientists took an interest in Sheldrake's ideas and proposed/ran experiments to test the idea, including New Scientist which "sponsored a contest, offering a prize, to anyone who could devise a solid, empirical test to prove or refute Sheldrake." The results were all apparently "inconclusive". This seems a fairly important point and I think it deserves mention in the article. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The more recent views of those who at the time "took an interest in Sheldrake's ideas " This analysis was far from clear-cut and the results did not, in my opinion, support the theory. Nor have results since then. Any use of dated content must be placed in its current context. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:12, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

This is an article about Rupert Sheldrake and his ideas. One notable fact about Sheldrake and his ideas is detailed in my post above. This is not a point about the validity of his views or otherwise but simply a noteworthy thing that happened. That is, a major scientific publication ran a competition and offered a prize relating to testing a theory of his. The article should mention this fact. It should probably also mention the fact that the Journal of Consciousness Studies devoted an entire issue to his work. Again, this is an interesting and notable aspect of his professional life and as such should be mentioned in the article. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

That there was "interest" when it first came out and the "interest" has morphed to skepticism with the lack of actual evidence might be appropriate. Anything else is misrepresentation.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

And since this is an article about Sheldrake and his ideas, and is not confined to stuff that happened in the last few years, we can and should note notable things that have happened throughout his (working) life. New Scientist running a competition, and the Journal of Consciousness Studies devoting a whole issue to his work, are clearly notable events from his life and thus suitable for inclusion in this work-focused biography. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Again, the "interest" that may have existed, MUST be placed in appropriate current context. Yes he may have caused a stir, but that has passed and there has been no swell of support or more specifically no actual science supporting it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:18, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Well we can quite easily frame some of these sections in those terms. But the point stands that these are important events and should be covered in his biography. No need to turn everything into a black/white overloaded discussion about the truth or otherwise of Sheldrake's work to the point that basic facts about it are kept out of the article. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

There are hints of this in the sources, there appears to have been some kind of competition run in New Scientist. However, NS doesn't have online archives from this period, so it'll have to involve library work. Are you up for that? Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need to say a tremendous amount about it. There are various sources which mention it and Blackmore says a bit more about it in her Guardian article (she mentions the winner and discusses the findings and her take on them). Barleybannocks (talk) 16:53, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Is the reason we "dont need to say a tremendous amount about it" because according to the participants "the results did not, in my opinion, support the theory. Nor have results since then. " ? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I already noted Blackmore's summary, and I think that it, with attribution, should be included alongside the facts she cites, such as the existence of the competition, it's nature and, I think, the winner. The reason for not going into too much detail is partly the difficulty of tracking down all the stuff from 30 or so years ago, and partly the nature of a general biography.Barleybannocks (talk) 17:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Pseudoscience

There is a perennial argument on this talk page that goes something like this: "Show me the scientific consensus that morphic resonance is pseudoscience! We only have opinions!" This is not how science works. Research grants are not awarded to investigate whether something is pseudoscience. Scientific journals do not invite papers on which newest things are determined to be pseudoscience. There is no annual scientific conference to decide which topics are pseudoscience. There is no global poll among the scientists of the world to determine what is pseudoscience. If any of these criteria were required for something to be called pseudoscience then nothing could be called pseudoscience and the word would cease to have meaning.

It is inescapable that morphic resonance is generally considered pseudoscience per WP:ARB/PS. The references in the lead have since been deleted, but that is no excuse to feign ignorance of the many supporting references in the body of the article (last paragraph here). This is one thing that must remain firm in the article. Proponents of pseudoscience have a history of inappropriately using Misplaced Pages to promote pseudoscience, which had culminated in the ArbCom decision on pseudoscience (WP:ARB/PS). This road is well-trodden. The remedy for this abuse of Wikipeida is Arbitration Enforcement. vzaak 14:40, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources that specifically say Sheldrake's work is science rather than pseudoscience, and many reliable sources that say this particular point is debatable. Many of these are cited above. Indeed, the Guardian recently commissioned a series of 4 article (links above) asking this very question and not one of the resulting articles used the term "pseudoscience, with some explicitly stating his work was scientific (again, links are above). The issue, then, is nowhere near as clear cut as you suggest, and accurately portraying it should present little difficulty, unless we try to force a single, absolute answer onto an issue that clearly has no single, absolute answer in the wider world/sources. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You are presenting passing usage of the word "science" as if the sources that use the term are doing so in the context of whether or not Sheldrake's work is "science" or "pseudoscience". That is not the context and attempting to misuse them to forward your bizarre and extraordinary claim is not acceptable. Without any mainstream academic sources that say "Sheldrakes work is not pseudoscience" we are done here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm not doing that. There are many sources (often written by academics) which, while dealing with the question of whether Sheldrake's work is science or pseudoscience come to the conclusion that it is science. There are many others that describe his work in a very positive light regarding it's scientific status (even if it does turn out to be wrong). And there are others still which provide an overview of this whole issue and say the issue is undecided. We can just present this honestly rather than trying to answer the question here. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Where are these sources that in the context of real science or pseudoscience say "not pseudoscience"? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:21, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Well Blackmore, in response to the question, said "Sheldrake is scientific, at least in many respects". That would put her in the debatable camp with a slight lean towards science. Roszak said books/ideas such as Sheldrake's were "the life's blood of science" which would put him firmly in the science camp. The article by Adam Lucas, Rupert Sheldrake: Shaman, Scientist or Charlatan, addresses this very issue and highlights the polarised reactions to Sheldrake. This would put that article as a whole in the debatable camp. There are various others all listed numerous times above. Thus there are many sources that deal with this specific question and say science, or debatable, rather than pseudoscience.Barleybannocks (talk) 15:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

"pseudoscience (ˌsjuːdəʊˈsaɪəns) — n a discipline or approach that pretends to be or has a close resemblance to science" Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition 2009. As you know when you read the full Blackmore article and not just those first 8 words, she also calls Sheldrakes work parapsychology etc etc etc and cannot in any way be considered an Extraordinary source which is supporting Sheldrake as "science" and not "psuedoscience". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 15:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Willfully ignoring WP:REDFLAGs - if you like WP:REDFLAGBLINDNESS isn't a great idea. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:58, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

It might be an extraordinary (REDFLAG) claim to claim that Sheldrake's work is true, or supported by the majority of scientists, but it is in no way extraordinary (REDFLAG) to claim many say it is science (even if false). And that's because many of the sources do just that. Blackmore, eg, does discuss Sheldrake's work in parapsychology, but it's not clear that she regards that, or any of Sheldrake's other work, as pseudoscience. Presumably if she thought it was she would have said that straight out, but she didn't, she said "scientific - at least in many respects". Thus she is at worst in the debatable camp slightly leaning towards science. Again, then, you are using a false dichotomy with the only options being true or pseudoscience. There are many more options than that as the sources clearly show. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:03, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You were asked "Where are these sources that in the context of real science or pseudoscience say "not pseudoscience"? " As you state above, while it may not be crystal clear that Blackmore considers it "pseudoscience" it is equally clear that she is not "in the context of 'real science or pseudoscience' saying 'not pseudoscience'". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:25, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Well when people are directly asked if something is science or pseudoscience, or when they are explicitly addressing that question, and they answer "science", we can take it they reject the idea it is "pseudoscience". And that's what we have a lot of. Some have said, eg, in response to this issue and the TEDx talk (which included a short segment on morphic resonance), that "there wasn't a hint of bad science in it". Thus there's five right away who address the question and clearly reject the idea it is pseudoscience. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Deepak Chopra is not mainstream academic. So you do have support as "science" from the mainstream of the woo community, but that is more of an indication that it is pseudoscientific woo than science. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:41, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The list of the others who jointly wrote this letter is produced above several times with links to their impeccable scientific credentials/positions included. To claim this is Chopra alone is just not true. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it has been linked, but it the signers "credentials" have in fact been pecced. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

If you think unfounded defamatory attacks by editors on a Misplaced Pages talk page actually have some bearing on the real-world credentials of scientists then you are mistaken.Barleybannocks (talk) 21:43, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Speaking informally someone might say that "Sheldrake's work" is pseudoscience, but to be rigorous a person says a particular idea is pseudoscience. An all-out beginning to end denunciation of everything the man has ever written requires, from a responsible scientist, that he has at the least read it all, and, well, I doubt many want to. Wnt (talk) 16:47, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Adam Lucas 21 C 1992 I am not seeing anything in here that specifically says "not psuedoscience". Can you point out what specifically you are drawing from here? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:34, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

For example, where it says "Sheldrake's peers have expressed everything from outraged condemnation to the highest praise" it is clear that some (those who expressed the highest praise) do not agree that his work is pseudoscience. And the article makes many such claims that show there is a debate on this question - that's what the title of the article means. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I do not see how that is "in the context of 'science or pseudoscience?'- not pseudoscience". We have someone in 1992 stating that some identified person had praised a book. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

note: the above should read "some un-identified person" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:44, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The title of the article - Shaman, Scientist or Charlatan - frames the discussion in those terms. And it is full of statements showing a mixture of criticism and support for Sheldrake from scientists. It is therefore clear from the context, and the words, that some do not consider Sheldrake's work pseudoscience. This isn't the be all and end all, but it is one more source detailing, in this case, the debate surrounding the status of Sheldrake and his work. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

If we are going to go so loosy goosy, from the title of the piece "Shaman, Scientist or Charlatan?" the unspecifid "praise" coming from unidentified persons can just as easily be from the Shamans and the Charlatans as the scientists, and it is clearly not the extraordinary sourcing for the extraordinary claims that any significant portion of mainstream academia sees this as "science" rather than magical hooha dressed in a labcoat. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:22, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

It's not an extraordinary claim. We have many sources that note that it is science. Perhaps gloriously and hopelessly wrong, but science. You're back to using a false dichotomy between true/massively well supported and "magical hooha dressed in a labcoat". Many in the scientific community, and many outside it, who are far more sophisticated in their thinking and thus take a view somewhere in between. And if the four articles commissioned by the Guardian are any guide, nearly everyone takes a view somewhere in between. Given this, there's no need for Misplaced Pages to portray everything in terms of the crudest false dichotomy one can dream up. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY CLAIM TO STATE THAT THERE IS ANY TYPE OF SUPPORT IN THE MAINSTREAM ACADEMIA TO SEE SHELDRAKES WORKS AS ACTUAL SCIENCE. Yes there may be handful of individuals who do. But there are a handful of individuals who think aliens came to Area 51. We have been going through the sources that you claim and they are being shot down one after the other.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

No it isn't, because we have multiple reliable sources which contradict your view directly, and others which discuss the very issue of whether Sheldrake's work is science and cover a wide array of viewpoints (thus contradicting your view directly). Again, you appear to be using a false dichotomy to force a choice between true/widely accepted as true and pseudoscience. There are, as noted, and as supported by multiple reliable sources, many more options than that. And the sources are not being shot down. The sources are clear and they don't support your take on things. For example, there are the four articles in the Guardian specifically about this question and where none explicitly stated his work was pseudoscience. If what you say is true, that fact is hard to explain. And it's not as if all the articles were glowing endorsements. They were note. They were just far more sophisticated takes on the question than anything some here will countenance. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:DEADHORSE. The WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT is overwhelming. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:59, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I heard your point. I'm pointing out that the sources don't support either it or the unsophisticated false dichotomy you are using to argue it. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:04, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

You can put it in all capitals, but it's not an extraordinary claim to "see Sheldrake's work as science". It is an extraordinary claim to say that telepathy is real. You see the difference? There are a lot of proposed scientific ideas that don't hold up. There are also ideas that are roundly rejected as pseudoscience by politically motivated ideologues for an entire century, then turn out to be true when someone actually does the experiment, like Michurinism. Finding something philosophically acceptable or unacceptable will always be pretty labile, therefore, not extraordinary. Wnt (talk) 16:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

In the 22nd Century when the mainstream academic community has done an about face and embraced morphic resonance as actual thing, then we remove claims of pseudoscience. As of this century, Sheldrake does not even have enough academic followers that the JOC could pull a peer review committee from them. There has been no evidence presented that when under context of the question of "science or pseudoscience?" there is any measurable group of academia that says "science". And it is a REDFLAG situation to claim so. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:45, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, Robert Todd Carroll says that Sheldrake "has clearly abandoned conventional science in favor of magical thinking" and that Sheldrake's "continued pose as a scientist on the frontier of discovery is unwarranted". Yet in that article the term "pseudoscience" does not appear. Following your argument, the Skeptic's Dictionary would be listed among the sources you are marshalling to support the claim that morphic resonance is not pseudoscience. Does that sound reasonable?

On the other hand, we have sources that say "Despite Sheldrake's legitimate scientific credentials, his peers have roundly dismissed his theory as pseudoscience", "Almost all scientists who have looked into Sheldrake's theory consider it balderdash", and "most biologists considered Sheldrake's theory of morphic resonance hogwash". Do you have sources which support the contrary? Citing a few individuals will no do. The article says "generally regards morphic resonance as pseudoscience", which allows for individuals to disagree.

In our earlier conversation I was apparently unable to communicate the difference between (a) real, actual scientific support for morphic resonance and (b) individuals who like Sheldrake and his general outlook. Even supposing there are individuals who explicitly say that morphic resonance is not pseudoscience (which I haven't seen that in your sources), that would still be consistent with the article text of "generally regards morphic resonance as pseudoscience". vzaak 18:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

No Vzaak, I would not be marshalling that source because it clearly makes statements calling into question Sheldrake's status as a scientist. The sources I am marshalling say things like Sheldrake's work is "the life's blood of science" and "it should be said that Sheldrake is totally committed to the scientific method". Thus while I accept that a good number of critics have called Sheldrake's work pseudoscience, I am also aware of a good number of others who have said quite the opposite. And I am aware of (and marshalling) other sources which discuss this very issue and come to a different conclusion from you. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

"totally committed to the scientific method" would be contradicted by Sheldrake's own dumping of the 10 scientific principles as expressed in his recent book and TEDx talk. He is "totally committed except for the parts that he doesnt like". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

When it's sources versus opinions of editors, sources win. also, the dogmas of science Sheldrake critiques have nothing to do with the scientific method. To think so is to conflate the method of science with some of it's findings, or underlying assumptions. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:46, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I am impressed by how the bar has been raised from "Did they say it was pseudoscience" to "did they say it is not pseudoscience."

In fact, the sentence: "The scientific community generally regards morphic resonance as pseudoscience for reasons that include a lack of evidence supporting the idea and its inconsistency with data from genetics and embryology." is grossly misleading.

• Reference 12 is an opinion stated by a mathematician.
• Reference 13 is an "emerging market portfolio manager."
• Reference 14 is a statement by a science journal editor. They do not indicate if he has any college.
• Reference 15 is a person qualified to make such a statement but the 1984 reference is way too far out of date for such a dynamic science. I see that Wolpert debated Sheldrake in 2004 so there must be a newer reference.

The idea of pseudoscience is supported by people who have a reason to know since they are scientists. In no way can you seriously argue that the sources of reference 12, 12, 14 are qualified to judge the an idea science or pseudoscience.

You have to find a better reference. Tom Butler (talk) 18:50, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Well it was inconsistent with knowledge of 1984. Since then Sheldrake's pre-scientific ideas have stood still while science in these areas has advanced rapidly - it is even more inconsistent now. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Tom, your argument is what my initial comment in this thread addresses. I don't understand the point about whether Adam Rutherford "has any college". And you missed this part of my initial comment: "The references in the lead have since been deleted, but that is no excuse to feign ignorance of the many supporting references in the body of the article (last paragraph here)." vzaak 20:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, you said, "For example, there are the four articles in the Guardian specifically about this question and where none explicitly stated his work was pseudoscience." One of those articles makes a recommendation regarding the reissue of A New Science of Life: "don't read this book, it will make you stupider". Why are you touting this Guardian article but not The Skeptic's Dictionary?

You haven't mentioned any sources which contest the generally considered pseudoscience status of morphic resonance. That a few individuals like Sheldrake's books is consistent with the article text. vzaak 20:05, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I saw your comments and do not agree. I do not doubt that some reputable scientists in that field of study have called Sheldrake's ideas pseudoscience. I also agree that they can be represented here in a balanced way. Look again at the opinion expressed by Andrew Lancaster:

"I'll try answering the original question in a slightly different way. The beliefs of authors are not things we should judge on Misplaced Pages. We know we can cite an author about subject X when that author is considered reliable outside Misplaced Pages for subject X. But concerning subject Y, we have nothing to say unless we are talking about subject Y, and then we also look at what people outside Misplaced Pages think of the author and subject Y. We try to reflect what is in publications. It is possible for a person to be considered a lunatic by experts in one field and a genius in another, at the same time. It is not for us to judge that, just to work out what the published experts say in each field.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 20:18, 4 December 2013 (UTC"

I think balance is being argued here and not an attempt to exclude the classification. There are many references in the article using people who have no standing based on lancaster's opinion. If you are not going to allow sources such as the peer reviewed Journal of the Society for psychical Research or the peer reviewed Journal of Parapsychology, then certainly you cannot allow a mathematician, a portfolio manager or a magazine editor ... one can only hope you were not serious about The Skeptic's Dictionary. Tom Butler (talk) 21:52, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Vaaak, the sources that say the things the sources I provided do - eg, totally committed to the scientific method, and the life's blood of science etc - completely contradict, and thus contest, the point you make. It's not really reasonable to expect sources to start taking account of your misreadings of Misplaced Pages policies/guidelines and wording their claims accordingly so that people might use them to contest things here in the manner you imagine. The simple fact is that multiple reliable sources say Sheldrake's work is scientific. More say this than say pesudoscience, fwiw, and some summary articles clearly say that the status is debated with some top quality scientists on both sides. I know you feel strongly that Shedlrake's work is pseudoscience, but when it's a case of sources versus the opinions of editors here, the sources win.

Tom, you're right that nobody is disputing the fact that some people have said Sheldrake's work is pseudoscience, nor that that view should be in the article. What is being argued here is that many other people take a completely different view (it is science) and that should feature as well since we have multiple reliable sources for it including summary articles and articles from informed people dealing with that very question who say Sheldrake's work is scientific. It is the suppression of these other sources, then, that is at issue. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:01, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Just to double-check -- the sources to which you are referring are Haight, Lucas, and Appleyard? I'm trying to figure out what 21 C Magazine is about. "THE FUTURE IS HERE". The magazine doesn't have a Misplaced Pages page. The website has an article about psychonaut Terence McKenna and another about a book written by a channeled alien. vzaak 00:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Those are the the sources. But remember what they say is already verified as true since we know a number of the scientists offering support etc. Some are even mentioned in the article, and so including this brief statement of fact in the lede should be unproblematic. Btw, here's the author Lucas' profile Barleybannocks (talk) 01:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes it is problematic in that it WP:UNDUEly represents the miniscule handful of individuals in comparison to the vast majority of the mainstream academia. Do I need to remind you again that he doesnt even have a big enough following that for their special issue the JoC could pick a peer review committee from those who are in the "mainstream of Sheldrakian thought" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks, thus stuff fails for the reasons TRPoD and jps have already mentioned. Adam Lucas wrote the article during grad school, so I don't know why you are seemingly touting him as an academic. Do you have the source for Haight? What comes after "field phenomena are necessarily connected"? Do you really think this book on theology is appropriate?

The lead summarizes the article. If you want to mention, say, Lovelock in the lead, then there should at least be coverage of Lovelock in the body of the article. And even then it needs to have some significance. In addition, it's not at all clear that Lovelock would support morphic resonance; I would presume he just likes the slant of Rebirth of Nature -- ecology, New Age consciousness, and the like. You're probably right that Chopra doesn't belong in the lead; that was just inserted for some positivity.

Be sure to check out the alien channeling article on the 21C site, it's a good one! vzaak 02:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not that bothered which scientist we mention in the lede, if any, but if the lede summarises the article then Chopra's quote should really be removed because there is no real discussion of the point he makes in the article - just its repetition. As noted though, at various places in the article we describe the interest and support Sheldrake and his ideas have had from the scientists/academics thus the lede should summarise that, and since we have sources that are already used in the article which mention this interest and support, we have everything we need: sources, evidence that it is true, and coverage of it in the article. Josephson and Bohm are mentioned in the article in this specific respect, maybe put one of them in the lede. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:28, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Given the minuscule amount of support Shelly has had from academia generally, as demonstrated by his supporters here, I can't see that a change in the lede to indicate this support is needed. Leave Chopra there, as a more suitable supporter, as I don't think anybody would want Josephson noted amongst their supporters, given his strange ideas. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:49, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Let's just use Josephson then. This is because: Chopra's quote has no bearing on anything on anything in the article; Josephson's support, and the support/interest of other scientists/academics is in the article so Josephson can stand for them; and since Josephson is such a dubious character, there will be no suggestion we are trying to falsely portray Sheldrake's support as more legit than it is. Barleybannocks (talk) 12:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I think we definitely should put Chopra in the article. He's a lot more famous than Brian Josephson and practically everyone else mentioned in the article including Sheldrake himself. jps (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The problem is though, that the lede is supposed to summarise the article, yet Chopra's quote is only repeated in the article and there is nothing further discussion about the issue. As such the lede at the moment excludes lots of stuff that is covered fairly extensively in the article, while it's not clear what the Chopra quote is doing there. I have no objection to Chopra per se, but the way he is presented seems pointless and irrelevant. Barleybannocks (talk) 14:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

his livelihood has depended upon the new age community- thats where his support is -and so it makes sense to have the quote from someone from that perspective. Perhaps the issue is that we are not covering his new age supporters sufficiently. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:43, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Maybe you should do that then. But until it is done the Chopra quote should not be in the lede because it has nothing to do with the content of the article. The continued demands for inclusion of this irrelevant quote also contrasts with the constant removal of well sourced statements of fact about the small degree on interest in and support for Sheldrake's theories by scientists and academics which does feature quite prominently in the article. My point is that the lede should reflect the current article and not some potential future version that may or may not ever come to exist.Barleybannocks (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I have not found any reliable sources discussing and commenting on the support from the New Age community that have not already been included in the article. Are you aware of any others? --- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:25, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I haven't looked, but until such time as the article discusses Chopra's point in some detail his quote about religion should be removed from the lede as irrelevant. I also added a citation needed flag to the stuff you added about Midgley saying Sheldrake's book had been ignored since it isn't in the Midgley article and no details have been given about where in Sheldrake's book (which is cited for this claim) Midgley is reported as having said this.Barleybannocks (talk) 18:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

oops, I copied the wrong ref name. Its now fixed. Thanks. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:47, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Information from the essay

I tried adding some more information about "The Sense of Being Stared At" and was immediately reverted. Since Barney didn't discuss I guess I will. What's the matter with this? The point of the article is to explain the subject, and I tried to touch on a few of the main headings from Part 2 (the practical experiments already having been covered more).

I'll admit, I find an unusual fondness for these arguments since despite not having known Sheldrake had such ideas I've made all four of them at one point or another over on the Science Refdesk (excluding the concept that consciousness has something to do with entanglement, that I should try to track down). Still, I didn't think I was far from neutral about it, and there's nothing "fringy" about explaining the main topics of a piece of writing. Wnt (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I think you made a reasonable first attempt to cover some of Sheldrake's work in a section supposedly about Sheldrake's work, but some here want the entire article to deal with Sheldrake in a few words while giving over 80% of the space to criticism. Barleybannocks (talk) 22:04, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Yep, per WP:PSTS the content of the article should be based on reliable sources assessment of the works of Sheldrake, not our regurgitation of his work. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:07, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I disagree to a certain extent TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) - we do need to cover what his ideas say, and might very carefully use primary sources. However, we have a big problem with WP:SUMMARYSING nonsensical fringe, i.e. arguments that do not make sense, and this is where WP:SUMMARYSTYLE just falls apart. (where's the essay on that?)

Instead of going into too much detail, it might be briefly to comment that Sheldrake argues that quantum mechanics and support his proposals, which I think is in the article anyway.

It's also, as we point out, an essay on a website, not peer reviewed, not even published in a newspaper, and given Sheldrake's known propensity for "muddled diatribes", it's clearly not very reliable. We can't go into details on fringe theories, because they don't make sense. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:15, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:SUMMARYSTYLE is about how Misplaced Pages articles relate to each other, not external content. It would only apply to this article if we determine that there is too much content to reasonably cover in one article and spin off daughter articles about specific content, such as a book or morphic resonance, into stand alone articles. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 10:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

What I meant TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) is that we have to summarise sources, but this assumes that arguments presented are broadly coherent, but if those arguments are incoherent, they are very difficult to explain. Barney the barney barney (talk) 11:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we have to judge whether it makes sense, but actually it does make sense, quite good sense. It really is established quantum theory, so far as I know, that the stars were all smeared together in a superposition of vast numbers of quantum states, until the first man on Earth looked up and they resolved into their places. No? Wnt (talk) 22:19, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

At first I thought you were joking with this, and then, remembering previous conversations, realized you probably weren't. The answer is emphatically, "no". jps (talk) 02:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

It's the basic cat in a box. Until you open the box, there are bits of live cat and dead cat in a billion different positions all mixed up together in a superposition. Well... nobody can look into the box until there is somebody, right? Wnt (talk) 04:14, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Only if you think that Quantum decoherence is a "somebody". (And starlight is not in a quantum state of superposition, obviously.) jps (talk) 06:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Compare : "We created the universe. ... this strong anthropic principle asserts the universe is hospitable to us because we could not create a universe in which we could not exist. While the weak anthropic principle involves a backward-in-time reasoning, this strong anthropic principle involves a form of backward-in-time action.

"Quantum cosmologist John Wheeler back in the 1970s drew an eye looking at evidence of the Big Bang and asked: 'Does looking back "now" give reality to what happened "then"?' His provocative sketch has not lost impact..." Wnt (talk) 11:38, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Skirting the edges of the out-on-a-limbs of these physicists' flights of fancy is not a good way to build your physical understanding. The anthropic principle is not causal in the sense of causality and Wheeler's question in context is a similar game. Fred Hoyle's use of the anthropic principle to discover the resonance state of carbon-12 does not imply that we caused that state to exist. Cart before horse and all that. jps (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

You may be right in being skeptical of the anthropic principle - it does tend to verge into solipsism. But my point here isn't really to argue what is good physics; my point is to refute the contention, still being made above, that Sheldrake's ideas are too incoherent for it to be possible to summarize them. When they closely resemble other publications by other people - including ideas I myself have expressed - they are certainly possible to summarize, and it is appropriate here to do it. Sheldrake differs, of course, from other sources in arguing that it is possible some of these effects lead to testable predictions such as telepathy. Even so, when you're the king of Strong Anthropicland and the whole world has been made so that you exist, why shouldn't their thoughts be predictable a little more often than chance? It's not really that far of a stretch from established "scientific" ideas about quantum mechanics. Wnt (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

To summarize what I think you're saying, I think your opinion that Sheldrake's views are indistinguishable from a kind of solipsism and anthropocentrism that posits cognition as the central feature of the universe, rather in contradiction to Copernican ideals. I think that's a fine thesis, but we'll need some sources making this kind of analysis to be able to include such a summary here. In other words, I think the connection you are trying to make is a valid one, but I don't think we have the sources necessary to make it. Just because logical extensions to Roger Penrose's thoughts could be seen as similar to Sheldrake's proposals does not mean we are empowered at Misplaced Pages to make such connections, sadly. jps (talk) 22:09, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you look up to the edit at the beginning of this, I wasn't doing anything nearly so complex as that. I just want us all to claim the right to describe the basic concepts Sheldrake raises seriously, without being stopped by claims that it is incoherent, pseudoscience, etc. So I'm not actually proposing to include a link to solipsism unless I find it in the writing being summarized or third party review of it. Wnt (talk) 05:32, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I think there are ways to describe Sheldrake's ideas fairly without including caveats every other sentence. However, removing all criticism from the article seems a bit like overkill. It should be possible to describe what he believes without going down the rabbit hole and without sounding like an internet "yeahbut" debater. jps (talk) 15:12, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I should disclose that I have expressed closely related ideas previously. Of course, there are many pseudoscientific ideas that many people arrive at independently, but at the very least you can't say an idea is meaningless when different people can arrive at aspects of it independently. Wnt (talk) 22:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Many people make similar typos and misspellings. That doesn't mean that the typo itself is meaningful (it is, by definition, an obfuscation of meaning). There is a sociological, perhaps even psychological (or maybe even pharmaceutical!) meaning behind fringe theories, but Barney, I believe, wasn't talking about these. He's talking about the substance of the claims. I know it's popular on Misplaced Pages to deal entirely syntactically, but we do have some responsibility to keep inaccurate information out of the encyclopedia or at least explain that it is inaccurate and only being included for completeness sake. jps (talk) 02:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

(ec)Well, it's legit "to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source." I thought I was sticking to that pretty well - heck, I was really only trying to cover the headings of the source with a few extra words for flow. Per WP:IAR it is better for the article to convey that he was making an argument about quantum physics than giving the impression he just ran some numbers on pet owners. Wnt (talk) 22:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

To me, the 80%/20% seems to be a reasonable proportion so that the article is based on third party interpretations and assessments. The problem with going into more detail of his work based on what his work says is that there is so little reliable secondary sourced material critiquing it to keep the based on percentages appropriate and not swing to the point where the article becomes based on Sheldrake's primary source material. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:23, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Page numbers, please

I see some six citations to The Science Delusion which lack page numbers. In a three hundred-plus page book (at least in the US edition) it is unreasonable to put in such citations. These are being used to back up some strong claims, so if someone wishes to defend these it seems to me that the references need to fixed. Mangoe (talk) 22:11, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Jzg (talk · contribs) is reading it. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

 Done. I replaced The Science Delusion refs with Science Set Free refs (same book, US edition) and added a Google Books link. vzaak 14:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Restoring the Notes section

I don't understand why a load of consecutive refs in the article text is better than a Notes section. The addition of the Notes section was praised by all parties, so I don't understand the sudden change.

The many references served a purpose: some editors were unaware of the status of morphic resonance in the scientific community, seeming to think it was just another theory alongside other theories. This misunderstanding is presumably shared by readers.

A line of refs like this should not be in the lead. Putting a few select refs in the lead has brought confusion and re-arguments again, as reflected in this talk page. Until all refs are removed from the lead, the Notes section is the only solution to the problem. I would support removing all refs from the lead, but it has to be an all-or-nothing situation.

Restoring the Notes section also brought my attention to the bit about the public understanding of science. This is a significant section in the body of the article and should be reflected in the lead. vzaak 18:18, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

• Support the bundling -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:27, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
• I agree. The public understanding of science is the crux of this article. Sheldrake's ideas are so silly that nobody in science takes them seriously. However, he does have a lot of people who are fans of his books, and seem to be under the mistaken impression that he's the greatest scientist who ever lived. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The public understanding of Sheldrake is surely the crux of this article. That's what it's supposed to be about after all, and not some great mission to use this article as a means of forwarding some sociological agenda. As regards Sheldrake being the greatest sceintist who ever lived, I don't see anyone here advancing that or who has even said they suspect/support such a thing. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Do not restore the note -- You clearly have ownership of the notes. In fact, only skeptical editors praised you. I for one frequently condemned the notes. Please do not restore them, as they tend to hid the piling on. Tom Butler (talk) 20:05, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Tom Butler (talk · contribs) - we go by consensus here. Despite ordering us you are not part of the consensus builders on this article. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:21, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, there is no consensus for restoring the notes. There was not even any attempt to gain consensus before restoring them. The issue was discussed above a few days ago and most thought they should go. Vzaak, however, did not join that discussion and just, as per usual, reverted to his preferred version so that that's what's there while the discussion takes place. Bad form in every respect. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:32, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The notes need to stay. Part of the reason is certain users liking to pretend that criticism doesn't exist when it clearly and specifically does. It's hard to argue with the sourcing, although somehow I think you might try. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:42, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not arguing against most of your sourcing. That is, while it is clear that sources are being systematically misrepresented throughout the article (something that desperately needs to change in a BLP), I fully accept that some sources support the claim that Sheldrake's work has been called pseudoscience. I must have had to say this over ten times now. The problem I have is with all the conflicting sources which say Sheldrake's work is scientific, more than you have for pseudoscience, and from as solidly reliable sources as you have, being excluded from the article because they conflict with the opinions of some editors here.Barleybannocks (talk) 20:53, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, that's partly right, but your argument is basically because a source doesn't use the word "pseudoscience" but does use the word "science" then it must be endorsing Sheldrake's work as scientific, despite whatever criticism the article contains. This is just plainly absurd. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:16, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

No, I'm not doing that Barney. I am saying that when an article says, eg, "Sheldrake is scientific - at least in many respects" then that is in the "debate" camp (on account of the qualification) but leaning towards saying Sheldrake's work is science. Your reading, however, is that this supports the idea Sheldrake's work is pseudoscience despite that being directly contradicted by the explicit statement quoted. That is what is "interpretation", euphemistically speaking. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:39, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney there is no consensus and there is no neutrality in this article. You can bluster at me all you wish, but the reality of it is that this article is under the control of skeptic ideologues who represent a small minority of Misplaced Pages editors, yet are pretty much by themselves dragging Misplaced Pages into even more disrespect from the larger community. If you were a rational editor, you would see this and at least try to be agreeable for a change. Tom Butler (talk) 21:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

You can scream NPOV ISSUES! NPOV ISSUES! NPOV ISSUES!!!!!!!! all day long and that will not fix anything. If you want to fix anything rather than just fill another 10 archive pages with bloated whining, identify particular content that WP:UNDUE does not accurately represent the mainstream academic views and we can discuss and fix (if there is actually any issue). -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

That has been done, probably hundreds of time. The reason it sounds like I "scream" and "whine" is that what I have said is not what you want to hear. You exhibit a serious sense ownership in this article and editors like Barney are just trying to support you. My irritation is at the stonewall you and others are putting up here and at the admin's complacency. Of course I am going to complain. Do you really think I ... and others will just surrender and go away with further actions? Are you that insulated here?

It is unfortunate you do not have the courage of your convictions to use your real name so that we can see your credentials. Tom Butler (talk) 21:42, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Wow. its unfortunate that you are resorting to personal attacks rather than discussing sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

TheRedPenofDoom (talk · contribs) - I have to tell you that Tom Butler (talk · contribs) is an expert on metaphysics and etheric studies so we'd better accept his knowledge of these issues, especially the existence of psi. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:08, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

so noted. i will not present my ignorance of etherialism here. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:30, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You know that is a reflection ... right? Tom Butler (talk) 21:47, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Please point out where a specific discussion has been made about "This content from this particular source stated in this particular way is an NPOV violation because..." There have been lots of claims about NPOV violations! that when reviewed are actually NOT NPOV violations because the content and the sources are in fact following the NPOV guidelines as identified in WP:UNDUE and WP:VALID and WP:PSCI. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

The NPOV issue is less about any particular source (although there are many misrepresentations of sources in the article that editors refuse to allow to be corrected) and more about the mass suppression of sources/viewpoints which some editors here don't like. For example, the article still does not say Sheldrake is a biologist when we have dozens of sources for this (and could probably get hundreds) because some editors here don't want it to be true. It's that kind of thing going on throughout the article (eg, your recent removal of the well-sourced point about the intellectual history of habits versus laws of nature) that many here feel means the article is very one sided and unbalanced. Thus the three main problems as I see it are: a) misrepresentation of sources; b) suppression of conflicting sources/viewpoint; and c) the refusal to allow anything other than a very brief, and often false/strawman, explication of Sheldrake's views into the article.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:17, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Again, when every time editors attempt to keep utilizing sources that violate WP:VALID / WP:UNDUE / WP:PSCI and they are "suppressed"; that is the proper application of NPOV and not a symptom or evidence of NPOV issues. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:06, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

You've been repeatedly told why we can't call him a biologist or scientist, and respond with WP:IDONTHEARYOU. Pick another issue. Barney the barney barney (talk) 23:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, you've been repeatedly told that your mere telling us your opinions about the world, should not be allowed to override dozens, and potentially hundreds, of reliable sources. Thus we heard alright, we just pointed out how wrong you are, and why it is a breach of NPOV to suppress massively well-sourced basic biographical details because you don't like it. And TRPoD, the sources don't violate anything. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:15, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

You can keep claiming that not calling someone a scientist/biologist is an NPOV violation, but the discussions at both NPOVN and BLPN have shown that your view is not supported by any community consensus. Eventually you will need to drop the stick or it will be dropped upon you at WP:AE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Why don't you drop the stick and accept that dozens of reliable sources mean more than your opinion + zero sources. Barleybannocks (talk) 23:50, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

And while you're at it, why not remove the misquote from Midgley you added to the lede which misrepresents the source and goes against your own argument (used elsewhere) regarding what the source is about. I've pointed out the problems below, thus your refusal to remove the falsely attributed claim is starting to look very unlike a simple error.Barleybannocks (talk) 23:54, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Please make up your mind. Is she talking about the book and we place it in the section on the book or is she not talking about the book and we leave it where it is? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:06, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

She's talking about different things at different parts of her article. I explained all this below. Unsure why this is so hard to understand. Some of it is general, some of it about specific points, other bits about other specific points. The bit you quoted is not about what you say, and the different bit I quoted is about the stuff I say.Barleybannocks (talk) 00:11, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

When she is talking about the fact that scientists largely ignore Sheldrakes research is she talking about the research in the book, in which case I will move it to the section about the book. Or is she talking more generally about scientists ignoring his research in which case the statement remaining in the lead would be appropriate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:28, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

• To be clear, when I reduced the Notes section to a line of notes, I thought it would be reasonable to continue by deleting some of them entirely, because they are just <ref somename /> type references. The lead is supposed to summarize the other content and in normal articles it is acceptable to not have notes for everything in it when they are elsewhere, as these are. I left them that way to be comparatively moderate in my change. I don't see the need for this polarizing language; as I explained a while back, I am quite aware of a large number of rational explanations for morphogenesis that do not rely on morphic resonance. However, the urge of some here to try to "hyperwin" the argument by pronouncing damnatio memoriae on the man is absurd. There really are arguments he make that make equally as much sense as any other pop physics you read in newspapers and magazines. It should be enough to cite the references one place, one time, yeah, the critics panned this one, and that one, and the other one, without having special repetitions and re-repetitions in the name of "public science education". I mean, just come on. Wnt (talk) 00:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but Wnt (talk · contribs) - if these quite specific points are not cited, certain editors like to pretend that the criticism isn't supported (and therefore should be removed), despite what the rest of the article says. Yes, it's imperfect, but in case you hadn't noticed, the whole encyclopedia is imperfect and as an imperfection this one is extremely minor. Barney the barney barney (talk) 12:29, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I suspected as much when I called it a "scar" in my first comment here. But articles are supposed to be written for the reader, to be neutral, not to prepare for war with other editors. Wnt (talk) 13:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with having citations in the lead. (" The necessity for citations in a lead should be determined on a case-by-case basis by editorial consensus. Complex, current, or controversial subjects may require many citations; others, few or none. The presence of citations in the introduction is neither required in every article nor prohibited in any article. Some material, including direct quotations and contentious material about living persons, must be provided with an inline citation every time it is mentioned, regardless of the level of generality or the location of the statement.") In most cases they are not necessary, but there are a lot of things that are unnecessary that are included in a lot of articles and having cited content in the lead does absolutely no harm to the reader. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said not to have citations in the lead. I do question whether it is necessary to have a copy of every citation made in the body of the article in the lead. And I reject the notion that the article needs a separate, very visible "notes" section attributing each nasty phrase word by word to combinations of the existing references. Wnt (talk) 14:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

It's probably not necessary in an uncontroversial article. However, this is controversial, partly because it's a BLP, and partly because some editor's bizarre beliefs in the paranormal prevent them from being amongst the consensus builders. Barney the barney barney (talk) 14:44, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

(e/c) given that you are calling them "nasty phrases" it falls squarely into the "controversial content about a living person" for which specific sourcing in the lead IS required. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Those are some remarkable interpretations of policy indeed. BLP urges you to showcase a list of negative comments beyond just having them in the regular text? And you can't build consensus with people who believe in the paranormal? (you should try editing some articles about religion for some extra entertainment!) Wnt (talk) 14:50, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

How the fuck is it a remarkable interpretation? BLP does NOT in any way shape or form indicate that we should not include well sourced content that reflects the mainstream views of the subject that has been presented in reliable sources. BLP is NOT a whitewash. It requires sources and sources require footnotes. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how your constant use of abusive language towards editors here is in any way helpful. Quite the contrary. We already have four editors who have been bullied off the article by that kind of thing. Wnt's comments, it seems to me, are clearly good faith attempts to improve the article, and it doesn't help when editors trying to do that are driven off because they have no intention of putting up with the constant abuse hurled at them from editors like you. It's also unclear what exactly it is about Sheldrake that annoys you so much. But whatever it is, it seems to me, and to a number of others, that your extreme emotional response to the subject of this article is not conducive to producing a neutrally written BLP.Barleybannocks (talk) 17:09, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I will continue to show utter exasperation towards editors who appear to have no ability to read and grasp policies and continue to push for inappropriate content and misapplication of policy. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Well perhaps you should try to avoid using so much abusive language while expressing exasperation at people's rejection of/disagreement with your perceptions of the rules. It doesn't make your arguments any stronger nor you interpretations of policy any more credible. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:26, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You know, usually when I hear people going on about "inappropriate content" it's the person objecting to that word, not the one using it. :) Really, the whole idea of "inappropriate content" is a mistake. We should have sources and summaries of sources, not making any effort to skew them from their natural occurrence or hold anything back, and be done. Wnt (talk) 19:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

e/c When the Notes section came into being here a few months ago, the contemporaneous crop of Shelly supporters were trying very hard to whitewash the lede - the Notes section was the solution to the ugliness of the cites piling on one after the other to silence the clamour of woolly thinkers. The current crop of sheldrakianites haven't caught on to this yet, and this is just a pre-emptive strike to prevent it. I confess to not really liking it, but if you really want to see a mess of obfuscatory referencing, take a look at the Phineas Gage page, and be thankful. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 14:58, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Sources being misrepresented in the article

I note that in this edit TRPoD added "Midgley also noted that scientists mostly ignored the book", but nowhere in the cited source does Midgley say this or anything like it. Grateful for clarification here.Barleybannocks (talk) 18:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

fixed. I copied the wrong refname. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:52, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

No, it isn't sorted because the article you cited doesn't make this point. Grateful for some clarification of where this comes from.Barleybannocks (talk) 18:59, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is: "scientists mostly ignored it " -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:45, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not about any book (as you falsely claim both here and with your addition to the article), but about a particular piece of research into apparent human/animal telepathy. Grateful if you could remove the misrepresentation from the BLP or find a source that says something like what you put in the article. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:51, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

in an article called "The Science Delusion by Rupert Sheldrake - review" its going to take some wild interpretation to say that her comments are about some other content than the book. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:40, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, no, you only need read what she says. She is talking about some very particular research into some very particular things (human/animal telepathy). It is this research that is the "it" she says scientists have ignored. Secondly, the section you added this to is about A New Science of Life and not The Science Delusion. Thus, even if she was talking about the Science Delusion, which she clearly isn't, her comments about that book would still not be relevant where you added them. Grateful if you could remove your misplaced misrepresentation of the source from the article without further ado. Thanks. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:47, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

You are right. I incorrectly assumed that you had added her book review content in the appropriate place. I have removed both of our edits that were about different subject. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:52, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Please restore the content I added as it is about habits versus laws of nature, which is precisely what Midgely was talking about in her article, and what the article here was talking about where I added it. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:56, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

No. As you pointed out, she is reviewing a different book and her reviews of that book cannot be misapplied as referring to a different book. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

She may be talking about a different book but she is talking aboutn exactly the same point - laws of nature being better thought of as habits rather than laws.

I also note, TRPoD, that you have now misrepresented in the lede as being about Sheldrake's research in toto when it is clearly about one aspect of his research. This also shows that even you don't buy your own argument about this being solely about Science Set Free otherwise why would you add it to the lede as a general point rather than a point about that book - the clearly false reason you gave for removing my content. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:04, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:AGF has clearly gone out the door. I take your claim that her statement is not about the book and you accuse me of using the statement in a manner that shows it is not about the book. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:11, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Just because one of her comments in an article is not about one specific book, does not mean it is about everything else Sheldrake has ever done (as the lead now falsely suggests by way of your recent edits). Nor does that fact mean that every other comment she makes in that article is or is not about one specific book or one specific point. She makes many points in the article about many things. In the cases under discussion here: her comment about stuff being ignored is about some of Sheldrake's work on apparent human/animal telepathy and not about all of his work; and her comment about the intellectual history of habits versus laws of nature is about the intellectual history of habits versus laws of nature, and not solely about Science Set Free. Thus, your edit which misrepresents her quote should be removed from the lede, and my edit about the intellectual history of habits versus laws of nature which accurately reflects her quote should be restored. In both cases the reasons are ultimately the same and concern using sources to support the specific things they actually about.Barleybannocks (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) is now by placing content by Midgley in her review "The Science Delusion by Rupert Sheldrake - review" as if she were discussing the book A New Science of Life. Admittedly Sheldrake regurgitates his material from one book to another, but placing the review with the wrong book is inappropriate. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:08, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I put Midgley's comments about the intellectual history of habits versus laws of nature onto a section about habits versus laws of nature in order that readers might learn something about the intellectual history of habits versus laws of nature. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:12, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

in other words, you took content from her review of The Science Delusion and placed it in order to make a point to the reader about content from A New Science of Life which the source did not make. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:17, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

No, it's not WP:SYN, because the content, in this case, is identical. That is, in both case it is about habits versus laws of nature which appears, in identical form, in both books. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Changes to the article

One of the major problems with the article at the moment is that there are no sections which discuss the main themes in Sheldrake's work - the stuff he's notable for - except in the few words devoted to them in sections specifically about his books. This means that, given the same themes run through many of Sheldrake's books, the book sections are almost devoid of content about what's in the book, and the central themes in Sheldrake's work get only very rudimentary treatment as part of some of those books. A better way to structire the article would be, I think, to take three or four of the central themes in Sheldrake's work and write a short section on each so that the reader might leave having been informed somewhat about the actual topic of the article. The four sections I have in mind are:

1. Morphic fields
2. Habit versus laws of nature
3. The extended mind
4. Philosophical/metaphysical views (already done to some extent)

So by treating each of these separately, and noting the interconnections between the various strands, we could fairly easily give quite a sound overview of Sheldrake's ideas and their context, which could in turn feed into the (reduced) sections about the books. In this way, I think, the article could be made much more informative, and much better than the current version, which is still C class, and has a hodge-podge feel to it. Barleybannocks (talk) 18:02, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like a good plan. Each section would incorporate suitable material per UNDUE, FRINGE etc. --Nigelj (talk) 18:24, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Tell you what though Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - why don't you make a copy of the article in your sandbox, make rearrangements there, and then let us comment on your proposals. I don't think we can be fairer than that. Barney the barney barney (talk) 18:37, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy enough to write something up and post it here for discussion. But I think it would be useful to have a brief discussion first so that if the idea is non-starter for some reason or other, no time is spent working on something that will be rejected on principle.Barleybannocks (talk) 18:43, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a way that would be fairer than that, Barney the barney barney. All the other editors here could agree that all future changes will be tested in sandboxes, or here on the Talk page, and gain clear consensus before the actual article text is changed again. That would let the existing article text settle, and give other, new, editors a chance to familiarise themselves with it and its current faults, which is very difficult when it continually changes and is reverted as at present. --Nigelj (talk) 18:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Well I am sceptical. I do think the present article is a mess and needs to be structured chronologically because that reduces the chances of WP:ARTICLEDISINTEGRATION (whereby unmaintained articles tend to deteriorate in quality as people fiddle with them). However, we know that the idea of "morphic resonance" is not notable, whereas what is notable is the response by reviewers to Sheldrake's books, which have sometimes caused extreme controversy. However, I may be convinced if Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) can make it look good, or if he can achieve consensus here amongst those who follow consensus elsewhere. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:00, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

You are making this up, right? Misplaced Pages is about "fiddling with articles". Wnt (talk) 19:07, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, I think Sheldrake and his ideas are clearly notable inasmuch as they have received significant coverage in many reliable sources. And while some of that coverage does discuss the reaction to his ideas it is by no means limited to such a discussion. This, though, brings us to a bigger issue: if what you say is true, then we should change the article title to "The Sheldrake Controversy", or "Criticisms of Sheldrake" or something like that. Such a title would, imo, be far more appropriate for the article that is currently in the article space rather than one about Sheldrake and his ideas which has yet to be written. This is something that needs to be cleared up first then I think. What is this article about and what should its title be? Barleybannocks (talk) 19:13, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

OK, Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - has research demonstrating morphic fields been published in any peer reviewed journals? If not, then we WP:REDFLAG it sorry. Please stop wasting your time arguing here and get on with rewriting the article. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Something doesn't need to have been published in peer-review journals to be notable enough for an article in Misplaced Pages. Do you agree with that?Barleybannocks (talk) 20:31, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

If something claims to be scientific, it usually helps though, don't you think? Barleybannocks (talk · contribs). Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:35, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

That's not the question. The question is whether peer-review is a necessary requirement for something to have enough notability for, or to be included in, a Misplaced Pages article. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:40, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Any article about Sheldrake and his fringe ideas is going to have to frame them within the views of the mainstream academia and based on third party sources and so is going to end up looking very much like this article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:04, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Suggestions about restructuring are OK. Suggestions about changing the tone of the article to one which is incompatible with WP:FRINGE aren't. Barney the barney barney (talk) 15:38, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Grateful if we could first answer the question above about what this article is about and what it should be called. If you want to call it "Criticism of Sheldrake" then the article should be about that. But if you want to call it "Rupert Sheldrake" then Sheldrake and his ideas should feature prominently as opposed to being presented in a misleading fashion to allow the maximum possible criticism (which is how the article currently reads). Thus it would be helpful if you could answer the questions about the title and the subject. Barleybannocks (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - the title of the article is Rupert Sheldrake. The subject of the article is Rupert Sheldrake. I'm pretty sure that an article on "morphic fields" will fail AFD, and side-shunting criticism to criticism of Rupert Sheldrake would create two WP:POVFORKs. The article must be compliant with WP:BLP and WP:FRINGE. Barney the barney barney (talk) 16:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm not talking about side-shunting anything. I'm asking if this article should be called, and be about, Rupert Sheldrake. I ask because at the moment the article is far more about the criticism Sheldrake's ideas/books have received than it is about those ideas/books. That is, in many of the sections over 80% is allocated to criticism while Sheldrake's ideas are only introduced in the most cursory, and misleading, manner in order to facilitate that criticism. Indeed, you suggested above that Sheldrake/his ideas were not really notable and that instead it was the criticism that was notable. Thus I am saying that if that's true then we should change the title of the article to the subject that is notable ("Criticism of Sheldrake") and be done with it. Barleybannocks (talk) 16:25, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

We have gone through this before, are you going to listen this time? The article is about Rupert Sheldrake, a notable author whose works have received significant coverage by third party sources, coverage that from the mainstream of academia has been highly critical. WP:NPOV and WP:V and WP:OR "work together to determine content, so editors should understand the key points of all three." In the case of content about living people like Sheldrake is overlaid by the Policy of WP:BLP. Sheldrake is not notable outside of his pseudoscience; morphic resonance is not notable outside of Sheldrake. BLP requires that criticisms be well sourced and representative. The criticisms in this article are well sourced and representative. We do not WP:POVFORK articles out to remove the criticism from the subject. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

You're the one who isn't listening (eg, POVFORK was never an issue except in Barney's imagination). And you're the one who needs to read policy/guidelines. Nothing there suggests that in an article about Sheldrake and his view (if that's what this article is to be) far more space should be allocated to criticisms to the point where the views the article is supposed to be about are almost invisible except for a few strawmen here and there seemingly presented for not other reason than to facilitate that criticism. For example, the nonsense in the lede about perpetual motion machines seems to have been included for no other reason to offer a cheap shot at something he is only partially saying (while his real point is nowhere to be seen).Barleybannocks (talk) 17:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

How many fucking times do we need to point you to WP:VALID? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I would imagine you'll need to keep pointing to it until you actually go and read it. The stuff there is primarily about presenting fringe views in mainstream articles. This is not such an article. You also seem to be conflating the explication of Sheldrake's views with their endorsement as true. This can easily be avoided by carefully framing those views as Sheldrake's and making appropriate reference to the mainstream views in contrast to which Sheldrake's are considered fringe. There is nothing in the policies/guidleeine you keep misapplying to suggest we have to exclude Sheldrake's views almost entirely, or that we should misrepresent them to make them seem worse than they are, or that we should present a (strawman) snippet merely to facilitate huge amounts of unscientific criticism, or that we should present unscientific criticism as if it was a scientific finding qua scientific finding a opposed to the views of some scientists. Barleybannocks (talk) 17:26, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing, repeat NOTHING in ] that states or even implies that it is only applies to "presenting fringe views in mainstream articles". It is part and parcel of the main WP:NPOV page which applies to all pages and has no disclaimers or riders suggesting that it is not applicable to any and all pages.

While it is important to account for all significant viewpoints on any topic, Misplaced Pages policy does not state or imply that every minority view or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship. There are many such beliefs in the world, some popular and some little-known: claims that the Earth is flat, that the Knights Templar possessed the Holy Grail, that the Apollo moon landings were a hoax, and similar ones. Conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, speculative history, or even plausible but currently unaccepted theories should not be legitimized through comparison to accepted academic scholarship. We do not take a stand on these issues as encyclopedia writers, for or against; we merely omit them where including them would unduly legitimize them, and otherwise describe them in their proper context with respect to established scholarship and the beliefs of the greater world.

-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:50, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

The problem, of course, is that "the topic" is not being included in the first place. That is, the topic (if this really is the Rupert Sheldrake article) is being almost completely excluded in favour of criticism. Thus your reading of WP:VALID is wrong because you are conflating the topic itself with a view about it. Barleybannocks (talk) 19:58, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

And back again to primary content policy WP:OR, "Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than to an original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors." We base our article upon what the secondary sources have said about the subject, and what the reliable mainstream academic sources have said is critical of the topic. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:05, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but that has nothing really to do with your confused reading of WP:VALID.Barleybannocks (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

we base the article on what the secondary sources say WP:PSTS in proportion to how the views are held by mainstream academia WP:UNDUE which in this case are overwhelmingly critical of the subject WP:V and so our article in upholding the WP:NPOV will present an overwhelmingly critical view of Sheldrakes works, because we do not make room for pseudoscience to be "treated equally" WP:VALID. Its pretty simple. And if you cannot grasp that by now you should please stop filling up the talk page with your incomprehension. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:20, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, you are conflating the mere presentation of the topic with a view of it. These are different things. Thus we present the topic (neutrally and not strawman fashion) and then we discuss the views of it (which is where the mainstream scholarship would come in). Secondly, on this point, it is important to see that the policy refers to "mainstream scholarship" and yet there is virtually no mainstream scholarship in the article! I have made this point a number of times and have said such a thing should be included. That has been rejected though, and what there is instead is some commentary from some mainstream scientists. But the idea that these views count as "mainstream scholarship" with all that that entails (eg, publication in peer-reviewed sources and textbooks after careful scientific scrutiny) is laughable. Thus the mainstream views of morphogenesis is what policy calls for to be stated as the mainstream view and not some stuff someone once said in some newspaper article as if it has the full weight of science behind it.Barleybannocks (talk) 20:27, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

off-topic commentary

People, you're making contentious edits to a BLP while making it clear that you regard the man's work, in its entirety, as meaningless and not even worth describing in a way that far surpasses the statements made by your own sources. I suggest you seriously consider just going off and editing something you don't have a strong connection to until you are willing to put more emotional investment in fairly and completely covering topics than stating your own opinions about them. If you don't, it can only be a matter of time until Misplaced Pages's usually overbearing BLP and arbitration processes kick in and you are ground down by their admittedly overzealous enforcement apparatus. I have seen it happen too many times before. Wnt (talk) 19:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

What is the point of the constant digressions whereby some editors constantly disrupt the talk page to give vent to their personal dislike for Sheldrake and his ideas. What purpose is there to such stuff here. If you guys want to start a blog where you roundly abuse Sheldrake every waking hour then go right ahead. Here is serves no purpose other than to derail discussions about improvements to the current article. I also note there are no similar digressions full of gushing praise from all the "Sheldrake fans" some imagine to be here.Barleybannocks (talk) 19:48, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Michael J. Morgan's "completely wrong" is a fair assessment. The rest of the other reliable sources support that. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:51, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Also, as regrads digressions Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - I'm not the one endlessly repeating silly refuted arguments over anv over and over again in a futile attempt to subvert consensus on WP:FRINGE and wP:NPOV, the most disturbing of which is the insistence that sources that indicate Sheldrake's work as "bad science" are endorsing his work as being scientific valid. Barney the barney barney (talk) 19:55, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

No, you are precisely the one repeating silly refuted arguments again and again. Eg, the one you just offered, trying to pretend that sources which say Sheldrake is doing bad science are being included, by me, in the list of sources that say Sheldrake is scientific. All the sources I have cited for Sheldrake's work being scientific say just that. Others I have divided into those which say the issue is debatable and those which say it is pseudoscience. You also conflate "scientific" with "scientifically valid" - there is a difference. A difference noted in multiple reliable sources (albeit ones which show a sophistication of thought (more than two options) far above anything apparently comprehendible by the '100% true or utter garbage' false dichotomy brigade). Barleybannocks (talk) 20:04, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) and Barney the barney barney (talk · contribs), you do realise that WP:BLP applies to "Material about living persons added to any Misplaced Pages page", don't you? I suggest you withdraw the personal attacks against Dr Sheldrake and his work above, or ask for them to be oversighted. After that, I also suggest a cooling off period where you voluntarily offer not to edit here for a while. --Nigelj (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank Nigelj (talk · contribs) - I think for TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) and TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) there is a defence of fair comment that seems to be amply supported by the sources, don't you think. Barney the barney barney (talk) 20:41, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Which scientist used the words "balderdash" and "hokum"? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 22:01, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

the research scientist isnt named, but he is quoted "no self-respecting university would allow good research money to be spent on such hokum", as one scientist confided to me "no self-respecting university would allow good research money to be spent on such hokum", as one scientist confided to me" its near the end , the cached version with searchable text is blacklisted -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:46, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Template:BLP noticeboard

and "balderdash" is not specifically quoted to a "scientist" but to an eminent writer about scientists who is summarizing their opinions Martin Gardner. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:09, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Is 21C magazine a reliable source for attributing "hokum" to an anonymous scientist? --Iantresman (talk) 18:11, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Talk:Rupert Sheldrake/Archive 13 i think you were the first one to suggest we use it as a source. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:17, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm confuseled. We have established the acceptability of "Balderdash" and "Hokum" on this page, so could somebody explain the utter nonsense of removing the words "utter nonsense" the poppycock of deleting "poppycock" and all the other nonsense we see around here regarding phrases like B++++++ I+++++ when describing Sheldrakes ideas? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 19:39, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't recall mentioning the magazine, or even see it mentioned on the archive page. So is 21C magazine a reliable source for attributing "hokum" to an anonymous scientist? --Iantresman (talk) 20:32, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I originally suggested the source here as one of three making the claim that Sheldrake's theories have received a small degree of support from scientists/academics. I was asked to provide the sources because, despite us knowing the claim was true in virtue of having the comments from the supportive scientists, these were rejected as sources for the general point as they were considered primary sources. A number of reasons were offered to reject this source, and I'm unsure if any firm conclusion was reached. Barleybannocks (talk) 20:39, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

21C is clearly a secondary source, for both referring to an anonymous scientist's opinion that universities wouldn't allow research money to spent on "hokum", and for support from scientists, and New Scientist. It would be useful to find the sources for the opinions of Paul Davies, John Gribbin, James Lovelock and David Bellamy. --Iantresman (talk) 20:59, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Ah yes, David Bellamy, one of those individuals who laypeople often assume are expert scientists when they're really just an expert broadcaster. See his views under homeopathy and climate change denial for how good he is at judging the validity of supposedly scientific ideas. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

that anonymous scientist views are pretty accurate. show me ANY university lining up to spend its research funds on Sheldrakes work. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:18, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Barney, you seem to be confused about what a scientist is. A scientist is not merely someone who agrees with every other scientist in the world. Some scientists also disagree with the majority view of other scientists on some issues. This is normal in science. And Bellamy is such a scientist. Thus his having some views that other scientists think are wrong, does not render him a non-scientist, it just means that he is a scientist who holds some views the majority of scientists think are wrong. Moreover, Bellamy is not the only one cited.

TRPoD, that might be relevant if we were claiming universities were beating a path to Sheldrake's door to offer him funding, but we're not. We're instead noting the well-known/sourced fact that Sheldrake has a small degree of support for his views amongst scientists. Barleybannocks (talk) 21:30, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - I'm actually quite aware of what a scientist does. A scientist does follows the scientific method, doing objective experimentation and publication of the results for the consumption of his colleagues in appropriate journals. Don't follow the scientific method? You're not a scientist. Get it fundamentally wrong while claiming to do science? You're a pseudoscientist. Bellamy is a retired broadcaster who believes in homeopathy and climate change denial. I wouldn't be surprised if he does support Sheldrake - he ticks most of the right boxes. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:37, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

So you don't accept that Sheldrake has had some small degree of support from scientists? You don't think for example that Paul Davies is a scientist, or Brian Josephson or David Bohm or even David Bellamy? I've linked their articles so you can make the appropriate changes to reflect you opinions (if you really believe it, as opposed to just saying it here, now, in order to keep well sourced facts out of the article because you don't like them). Barleybannocks (talk) 21:45, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I'm interested to see any peer reviewed publications that detail tests of the morphic resonance hypothesis, and in particular conclude that this exists. Has Bellamy or Davies conducted any such experiments and published the results (according to Sheldrake it should be easy to do so). Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:48, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not subject to your bizarre personal definitions of terms like "support". The sources say it, and your opinions to the contrary, and your personal definitions, are your own business and have no place determining the content of articles contra multiple reliable sources. And if science means only peer-reviewed stuff, as you suggest, then why misrepresent the obviously non-peer-reviewed critiques of Sheldrake as if they are science and carry the full weight of mainstream scholarly consensus.Barleybannocks (talk) 21:54, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the lecture Barleybannocks (talk · contribs) - but please don't misrepresent what I said. I asked for peer reviewed support for Sheldrake's hypothesis. You didn't answer the question. Barney the barney barney (talk) 22:00, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I did answer, I said your question is nonsensical (because it is based on some ad-hoc definition of your own devising), and I noted that if it wasn't nonsensical, then almost everything that is currently presented in the article as "scientific" (the criticism) is subject to that same definition and as such is, by your argument, a gross misrepresentation.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:20, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

"Ignored" in lead

I removed "Scientists have mostly ignored his research" because it's already implicit in the noting of pseudoscience. The amount of criticism in the lead seems about right, and going too far can deflect from other points. Also, Mary "still doesn't get selfish genes" Midgley isn't a good source for this. I'll self-revert if it turns out people really want it, though. vzaak 22:32, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful on this point. As it stands the article makes it appear as if Sheldrake's ideas have been subjected to scientific scrutiny and rejected. Almost nothing could be further from the truth. His ideas have, though, been ignored, and most of the criticism is not the result of any science being done but is largely opinion, often a priori, and on occasion from people who have later confessed to not even having read his work. I think it's important to make this clear to the reader.Barleybannocks (talk) 22:37, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

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