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Revision as of 21:57, 15 December 2013

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December 2013

Please do not add commentary or your own personal analysis to Misplaced Pages articles, as you did to Lester Coleman. Doing so violates Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy and breaches the formal tone expected in an encyclopedia. Thank you. NeilN 14:03, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to vandalize pages by deliberately introducing incorrect information, as you did at List of people granted asylum, you may be blocked from editing. NeilN 14:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Please stop adding unsourced content, as you did to Lester Coleman. This contravenes Misplaced Pages's policy on verifiability. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. NeilN 14:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

This is your last warning. The next time you disrupt Misplaced Pages, as you did at List of people granted asylum, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. NeilN 14:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Banning within a 4-minute period? Due process? Hello?

If you are going to consider editing the Lester Coleman page as a bannable offense, then you need to hang a sign on the page stating "warning, editing here will result in you being automatically banned".

The man was a refugee for five years in Sweden.

He was judicially persecuted.

The page, before I edited it was non-neutral, full of DOJ bias.

Warning, editing to add false, unsourced, and non-neutral information will result in you eventually being blocked. Happy? --NeilN 14:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I actually added information sourced from the Daily Mail, U.K.

Did you even read the editing? I think not.

Do you have an email for any future newspress articles on the libel on Misplaced Pages of investigative journalists?

Thanks in advance for providing this. Sure Footed1 (talk) 14:38, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

This is your version of the article. Please point out the Daily Mail reference. Thanks in advance for providing this. --NeilN 14:46, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, before we get-into the Daily-mail or accreditidation issues, there's the issue of STYLE.

The first para of the old article launches into a discussion of the book "Trail of the Octopus". The rest of the article focuses on his so-called criminal past.

The guy won three Emmys as a journalist before the Locherbie thing wrecked his life (resulting in the DOJ chasing him all-over creation, and "that's persecution, my friend").

Definitely the first para needs to be cleaned up - and I did that.

I'll source it a bit better. I might do some of it later, as that will take more time.

But for you to call me a "disruptive editor" was completely OUT Of line, Sir. Sure Footed1 (talk) 14:55, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

No sources provided as usual. --NeilN 14:56, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

How *old* are you. I haven't made any edits yet.

Seriously. Sure Footed1 (talk) 14:59, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

You said you added info sourced from the Daily Mail so I assume you have that reference readily available. I'm asking for that information. By the way, you should be aware that the Daily Mail is generally not regarded as a reliable source when nit comes to sensational news stories but we'll cross that bridge after you provide the actual reference info. --NeilN 15:12, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Look, I don't know how old you are, but just because I didn't make the edits immediately doesn't mean they can't be made. Not everyone has their leg tied to a computer, and is a Misplaced Pages fanatic, sorry to disappoint.

Beyond that, this isn't a sensational news story. This man used to co-produce 60 minutes and 20/20 for CBS, he's won three Emmys, and apparently served as an undercover DIA officer, witnessed something-awful, reported it, and had a lot of problems afterwards. As for references, there's plenty, it's just that most of them were UK newspapers, as U.S. newspapers generally didn't print much about non-US government side of the Locherbie story. This is fairly typical of the U.S. press, and any such whitewashing is fairly typical of Misplaced Pages, evidence the Pierre Salinger article. Salinger was a former Congressman, Presidential press secretary for JFK and a very distinguished newsman, but he differed on the Locherbie story, then on TWA 800 and he was eaten-alive, by "whomever".

The one that I found (Washington Weekly) is out of print.

The Daily Mail citation was already in the Coleman article, but someone put it in the comments-section.

I'll get to it when I get to it. I have other things going on today. Sure Footed1 (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

"This man used to co-produce 60 minutes and 20/20 for CBS , he's won three Emmys ..." --NeilN 16:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages administration Gag order and "threat of immediate banning" for editing Lester Coleman

And now you want to ban me as disruptive. Fine. Let's call The Guardian and The Register and talk about Misplaced Pages's support for persecution of whistleblowers. Mr. Coleman is a well-known persecuted journalist. Sure Footed1 (talk) 14:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Let's call the The Guardian if Misplaced Pages is a platform for supporting journalist persecution

Persecuting journalists is back in vogue. I think that this is a prime example of Misplaced Pages's support for google-based persecution.

I think that this is a time-pertinent issue.

If Mr. Coleman can't have a bio which is neutral, but is *required* to reflect the DOJ's opinion, and anyone who edits it is to be "banned" for "violating a gag-order" enforced by Misplaced Pages administrators, then I think that this needs further exploration in the press.

Why is journalist Mr. Lester Coleman being lambasted on Misplaced Pages? Why is it important to libel journalist Mr. Lester Coleman on Misplaced Pages? Who benefits from the libel of journalist Mr. Lester Coleman on Misplaced Pages?

Sure Footed1 (talk) 14:20, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Asylum

You know the difference between seeking asylum and being granted it, right? --NeilN 16:07, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

≤Laughs≥. Glad you asked. Indeed I do.

Do you want to have a discussion about the refoulement policies of different governments, a discussion of how refoulement is a jus cogens violation, or which treaties are referenced in the asylum procedure? And which plurilateral treaties also apply to the procedure, in different regions of the world? The difference between judicially granted political asylum and diplomatic-granting of political asylum?

"Bring it".

Sure Footed1 (talk) 16:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Just making sure as you added Coleman to the List of people granted asylum article when the source plainly states he was refused asylum. I (and Misplaced Pages) could care less about how you think asylum should work. --NeilN 16:22, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

My what a charming response. I didn't discuss my opinions of asylum. I made reference to various declensions of the asylum procedure, and laws (and treaties) under which asylum is either granted, or recognized. For example, Snowden was granted "diplomatic asylum", which the U.S. doesn't recognize. If he had it granted by a judge, that would be another kettle of fish. Did you know that? I'll bet you didn't. My point is that I do know a great deal about asylum, more than most people you'll chat with on Misplaced Pages.

Back to Mr. Coleman. I had been under the impression he'd been granted temporary protection in Sweden. That wasn't accurate. It looks as if he went-through the asylum procedure and was refused, full-stop, then moved out of Sweden, to another country, then went-back to the United States (where it appears he had a hell of a time, until he counter-sued, and then he moved back to Beirut).

I didn't realize he didn't get asylum in Sweden. As such, hedoesn't belong on the list of people 'granted' asylum, given that information. But neither was I "disruptive editing. But in all frankness, I don't think you were aware of the facts either, when you were making ad hominen attacks on my editing.

You looked it up right now. Didn't you. Sure Footed1 (talk) 16:29, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

So you added information not belonging in the article three times without bothering to check the facts (or the source you yourself provided)? Sounds like disruptive editing to me. --NeilN 16:36, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I had understood something incorrectly. That's not disruptive editing. That's misunderstanding the facts.

You might want to reread the Misplaced Pages manual on "assume good faith", because you aren't following it.

As well, you are being quite rude.

Sure Footed1 (talk) 16:53, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Well let's take another example. In this edit you claim that Coleman won the Edward R. Murrow award. What's your independent source for this? --NeilN 17:27, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

User: NeilN needs evidence of one point

Listen guy. I'm not on trial. If you want an official source, for his receiving the Murrow award:

• "Trail of the Octopus", page 58, para 2.
• D.C. District Court filing 1: USCOURTS-dcd-1_04-cv-01688-0 I don't find anywhere that it is refuted.
• D.C. District Court filing 2: USCOURTS-dcd-1_04-cv-01688-0

List of references to satisfy User: NeilN

1. http://www.amazon.com/Trail-Octopus-Beirut-Lockerbie-Inside/dp/1439237808/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1#reader_1439237808
2. Civil Court filing, 2005
3. Civil Court filing, 2005

These references are unusable per our policies.

• WP:SELFPUB - The material is self-serving and involves third parties.
• WP:PRIMARY - Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. This also self-published. Anyone can claim anything they want in court filings.

This is why I asked for independent sources - sources that actually fact check Coleman's claims or the organization handing out the award. --NeilN 21:36, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Back to reality

The DOJ does pick people and persecute them unremittingly. You seem pretty young and you may be intelligent, but possibly not very experienced in the way the world works. The more I read about this man, the more this appears to have been the case. There are well-known recent cases of this such as internet activist, civil disobedience-performing Aaron Swartz, but also, political persecutions transpire against establishment figures such as Don Siegelman; Governor Siegelman was persecuted for somewhere around 9 years, until they finally imprisoned him, for a crime that wasn't really a crime. When you enter into the subject of intelligence whistleblowing, you are walking into a world where all published facts can be manipulated, and the odd are stacked against the individual. The world doesn't function like we see it on the TV. The authorities can behave pretty badly when it comes to seeking to cover up official mistakes.

Such as concerns Coleman: that biography focuses entirely on the U.S. government side of his case. There is a lot of information that presents the story other than in that bio, and it's not there.

I think your point stands that there needs to be a well-researched, defendable bio of the guy, because right now, it's utterly non-neutral.

I have things to do right now. Enjoy your day on Misplaced Pages. Sure Footed1 (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'm pretty experienced with the way the world works. Experienced enough to know not to unthinkingly accept as the truth the story of a man who has a possible motive to whitewash his past. Also experienced enough to know governments engage in the same whitewashings and coverups. On Misplaced Pages we report on what the majority of reliable sources say - we're not here to be a soapbox. Having said this, thank you for providing some usable sources on my talk page. I've copied them to the article's talk page and started a discussion on what content could be incorporated into the article. Please make your thoughts known there. --NeilN 21:57, 15 December 2013 (UTC)