Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:28, 30 December 2013

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Biography This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool as Stub-class because it uses a stub template. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Puerto Rico Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Puerto Rico, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics related to Puerto Rico on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Puerto RicoWikipedia:WikiProject Puerto RicoTemplate:WikiProject Puerto RicoPuerto Rico Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination: Deletion discussions: delete, March 26, 2011, see discussion. no consensus, October 30, 2009, see discussion. delete, April 18, 2006, see discussion.

The following Misplaced Pages contributor may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. Marine 69-71 (talk · contribs) / Santiago, Tony This user has contributed to the article.

Notability

As a precautionary measure, since this article has been nominated for deletion before, please consider this information before taking any actions:

Tony has always been notable per our guidelines but we didn't have references online to prove so. Now we do.

Today, we can succinctly say he is notable per WP:GNG and WP:BLP since Tony:

has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent of each other, and independent of the subject.

Here are several references that establish his notability:

1. Tony was an official historian for the Association of Naval Services Officers (ANSO). This information is not available online anymore but you can look it up by using the Internet Wayback Machine at
2. Tony is the subject of a resolution by the 23rd Senate of Puerto Rico, this resolution is available at: This was the most contentious point in the past as Tony was the only one able to provide it but the resolution is now available online through the Puerto Rico Office of Legislative Services.
3. Tony has been the subject of a campaign by the Wikimedia Foundation entitled "Thank You":
4. Tony has been profiled by the Wikimedia Foundation exclusively: if you take into account that the Wikimedia Foundation is a non-profit organization recognized internationally you can easily see how this is a reliable source.

In the past, this article was criticized for its prose and I volunteer myself to fix such issues if anyone believes it should be improved. Feel free to contact me on my talk page and I will fix it.

I have known Tony for more than 9 years, if any of you need information from him please let me know and I will contact him directly by email, get the information needed, and post it myself on the article in order to avoid a conflict of interest by Tony editing it himself.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 21:53, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

"Self-published" and "unreliable sources"(?) I do not agree.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus was: sources are Reliable Sources and not Self Published Sources - Keep text as it was prior to the Objection being raised. Mercy11 (talk) 03:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Someone placed "self-published" and "unreliable sources" footnotes in the lead paragraph of the article. The "self-published" footnote is wrong because the source was a third party, not Antonio Santiago.

Regarding the "unreliable sources" footnotes -- I believe that articles by Wikimedia Foundation, and article profiles by Misplaced Pages, should not be deemed as "unreliable." What do other editors think? Nelsondenis248 (talk) 05:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• You may want to become familiar with the concept of a self published source. It has nothing to do with the subject of the article being the author of the source. --damiens.rf 17:56, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• Thank you for the suggestion. In this particular instance, I am familiar with case, common law and statutory developments regarding self-publishing, since I am an attorney with an active practice in publishing and intellectual property matters. I had already read the Misplaced Pages language with respect to self published source and, in fact, the language has a great deal to do with first vs. third-person authorship. You may wish to review it again, and note the operative words "own" and "self-published." Those modifiers are self-authenticating, and define the parameters of all subsequent language therein. But thank you again, for the suggestion. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 07:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• And no, a facebook post is not a reliable source for claiming that a given wiki-editor is "the foremost authority on Puerto Rico's military history". --damiens.rf 17:58, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• I did not refer to a Facebook source. I referred to the Wikimedia Foundation source. I believe it is worthy of consideration as a source, particularly on matters that relate to Misplaced Pages.Nelsondenis248 (talk) 07:37, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
• In this particular case the Facebook post is indeed a reliable source since it's a press release published on the official Facebook account of Kenneth McClintock, former Secretary of State of Puerto Rico and former President of the Senate of Puerto Rico. McClintock was an invited speaker at an official Veteran's Day ceremony held at the municipality of Guánica. The press release is a verbatim copy of his remarks as guest speaker. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 16:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• For the record, unfortunately for you Damiens, you do not come into this criticism with clean hands, as your personal attacks on the subject of this article are well-documented and we Wikipedians tend to have long memories.

Having said that, we are well aware that the concept of a self published source has nothing to do charcoal, rock and roll, immortality, and a million other things. Did I make my point??? That is, why don't you Enlighten Us and, rather than stating what it does not have to do, be brave and state what -in your wisdom- it does have to do with? Mercy11 (talk) 19:29, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• In this particular case, the Thank you note from Tony Santiago is considered reliable for several reasons:

1. it was not published by Tony, it was published by Megan Hernández, Head of Annual Fundraiser, Wikimedia Foundation. Hernández, " our volunteer editors tell their unique Misplaced Pages stories to readers while raising our budget every year."
2. it's an official publication by WMF, not by Tony.

—Ahnoneemoos (talk) 16:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• In addition, the other footnote relates to a Misplaced Pages Profile, which was written and posted by Joe Sutherland and Victor Grigas at the Wikimedia Foundation. The profile was written by them, and published by the Wikimedia Foundation. Not self-published. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 07:10, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
• Footnote 7 of this article contains some helpful material. It links to Senate Resolution #3603, which was co-sponsored by Senator McClintock and passed by the Senate of Puerto Rico on November 20, 2007. For the benefit of our Wiki editors, I translated three relevant portions of it - and you can read the original by going to Footnote 7.

Here are the three relevant portions.

In its first whereas clause (Exposición de Motivos) you will see the following (Spanish appears first, my translation is underneath):

"Antonio Santiago, un ex-miembro puertorriqueño del United Status Marine Corps y veterano del conflicto de Vietnam, se ha convertido en un importante historiador de la aportación militar boricua. Durante los pasados años, Santiago ha hecho uso del internet para difundir historias de sacrificio y heroísmo puertorriqueño en los campos de batalla, tanto como Editor del "Puerto Rican Military History Channel" de la revista mensual cultural "El Boricua", así como escritor para la revista electrónica "Somos Primos" dedicada a difundir el legado hispano."

(Translated) “Antonio Santiago, a Puerto Rican, former member of the U.S. Marine Corps, and veteran of the Vietnam conflict, has become an important historian of the Puerto Rican military experience. Over a period of years, Santiago has used the internet to communicate the history, sacrifice and heroism of Puerto Ricans in the field of battle. This includes his work as Editor of the Puerto Rican Military History Channel, Editor of the cultural magazine El Boricua, and writer for the Somos Primos on-line magazine, all of which are dedicated to communicating the legacy of Hispanics.”

Paragraph 4 of the whereas clauses cites Tony Santiago as:

(U)no de los principales aportadores de contenido relacionado con Puerto Rico en la enciclopedia electrónica abierta conocida como Misplaced Pages.

(Translated) "One of the main writers on subjects which relate to Puerto Rico, in the electronic encyclopedia known as Misplaced Pages."

Later in the resolution, Section 1 reads as follows:

Sección 1.- Se expresa el reconocimiento y agradecimiento del Senado de Puerto Rico al señor Antonio Santiago por su dedicación y entrega a la causa de ayudar a difundir a través de los nuevos medios electrónicos de difusión, información sobre distinguidos puertorriqueños y, en particular, aquellos que han servido con distinción en la milicia.

(Translated) "Section 1.- The Senate of Puerto Rico recognizes and appreciates Mr. Antonio Santiago for his dedication and commitment to communicating, through new electronic media, the information regarding distinguished Puerto Ricans and, in particular, those whom have served with distinction in the military.”

This Resolution #3603 is significant, in regard to sourcing for this article. The resolution establishes: 1)Tony Santiago was recognized by Sen. McClintock, 2) Sen. McClintock co-sponsored a resolution, which was passed by the Senate of Puerto Rico, 3) Senator McClintock, and the entire Senate of Puerto Rico, formally recognized the contributions of Tony Santiago to Puerto Rican historiography, and to military historiography in particular.

In view of this recognition by a highly credible institution (The Senate of Puerto Rico), Tony Santiago's contributions to Puerto Rican historiography are a matter of record, and this was also recognized by the Wikimedia Foundation.

Tony Santiago is not a Puerto Rican Senator, and he is not a member or writer for the Wikimedia Foundation. In fact, the Wikimedia Foundation articles were clearly and explicitly written by Joe Sutherland and Victor Grigas.

In view of all this, and taking into consideration the comments from Ahnoneemoos and Mercy11 above, the sourcing is consistent with respect to Mr. Santiago's historical contributions. With regard to reliable sourcing, I will add Footnote 7 to the lede paragraph.

I strongly recommend that any further editing in this particular matter, should be done via consensus rather than unilateral action. Nelsondenis248 (talk) 02:53, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

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