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Relationship with evidence based medicine

I recently noticed there was a link to this page from List of topics characterized as pseudoscience but much of the information on that page was not duplicated here. In particular, in the current lede of the article we have

"Nonetheless, some of its methods, including the model of the body, or concept of disease, are not supported by modern evidence-based medicine."

But this is not sufficiently supported by the body of the article, which has only

Attempts to reconcile these concepts with modern science – in terms of identifying a physical correlate of them – have so far failed.

and brief efficacy sections for herbal medicine and acupuncture, neither of which specifically mention that these practice are characterized as pseudoscientific in a range of sources. I welcome suggestions as to how to work this information into the body of the article without duplicating other material. a13ean (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

The article is quite clear about the incompatibility of certain TCM concepts with their closest biomedical correlates. I don't see the need to inject inflammatory terms like "pseudoscience" - as someone else mentioned above, TCM is a traditional practice that relies on its own self-referential system of correspondences to link treatments to syndromes unique to TCM. The fact that some people use a label like pseudoscience to characterize something does not mean it is an appropriate descriptor.Herbxue (talk) 04:56, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. A wide range of reliable sources similarly agree that many practices in TCM have no scientific basis, and we report what reliable sources say. a13ean (talk) 14:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

But that is a different issue, the lack of scientific recognition of qi and meridians is already well-covered in the article. It is a leap to go from "Science does not support the concept of qi" to "TCM presents itself as science-based, but is not based on science" - that would depend on proving that TCM defines itself as a science or science-based practice, which it does not. Herbxue (talk) 15:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

In (say) Mandarin, doesn't terminology surrounding TCM overlap with scientific terminology? I'm no expert, just seeking clarification. A native Chinese perspective may be needed here. Vzaak (talk) 18:11, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Its a good question. Where it does overlap (but not equate) is in descriptions of the organs. The "zang fu" of TCM share names with the actual organs they relate to, but in TCM they are not understood in the same way. For example, the "spleen" ( 脾 pi) of TCM is understood as a group of functions that are more closely related to the pancreas and small intestine of biomedical physiology. Concepts of pathology only superficially overlap as basic descriptions like "headache", but the mechanism describing the formation of the headache is completely unrelated to biomedical pathophysiology.Herbxue (talk) 21:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure there aren't terms relating to, say, (picking an arbitrary example) "energy" in TCM that match the scientific term for "energy" (that is, kg m^2 / s^2)? (And by a native Chinese perspective I also meant an outside, disinterested one.) Vzaak (talk) 22:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

"Energy" is a good example for my point in that "Qi" describes something separate and more broad than specific types of energy (it includes the ideas of air, fluid, nutrients, and energy). A good example for what you are getting at is "Blood" which has specific meanings to a TCM practitioner but the word (血) is the same whether used in the TCM context or the biomedical. Similarly the Chinese word Jing (精) has the modern narrow meaning of "semen" when used in a combo word (精子) but has a broader meaning in the TCM context. It is important to note that in all the examples I gave, the term is used in TCM long before being appropriated as a translation for a biomedical technical term, and they are usually distinguishable by their usage as compound terms or simply by context. I am not sure how we can find a native Chinese editor that is disinterested or neutral regarding TCM to comment on this. Thoughts? Herbxue (talk) 03:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Not all TCM practitioners consider themselves as outsiders to Western medicine. Certainly some TCM people practice pseudoscience, but others attempt to reconcile it with Western medicine. Shii (tock) 17:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

That is true that many people inform their practice of TCM with science, I am one of them. My point here is that TCM, as taught in TCM schools in China and the west, is based on notions that predate biomedical science. As TCM continues to be based on those notions, and makes no attempt to obscure that it is based on those notions, the pejorative label pseudoscience is not appropriate because, according to the WP definition, pseudoscience is something that presents itself as scientific but is not based on science.Herbxue (talk) 18:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

There is no shortage of sources saying that TCM is pseudoscience. TCM attempts to perform at least some of the functions of evidence-based medicine (EBM), so wp:medicine standards and other policies require the mainstream scientific view to be unequivocally stated. I would also add, off the record, that WP has a moral obligation to avoid steering readers away from EBM. The mere suggestion that TCM might be appropriate where EBM has already proven reliable could have literally deadly consequences. In toto, these points significantly outweigh the concerns of offending TCM practitioners with the pseudoscience term. Vzaak (talk) 19:45, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Your personal objection almost seems to disqualify your guideline-based objection. It's a Eurocentric attack on a very long-standing Chinese tradition. Shii (tock) 21:25, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way, astrology is also a long standing tradition, it's still pseudoscience. Thinking that one argument unrelated to another can invalidate the other is fallacious reasoning. You've missed the point about why people criticise TCM with an off-topic comment related to xenophobia. The comments by Vzaak are in line with policy. There are many sources that refer to TCM as pseudoscience, and as such the material holds due weight in this article. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Not to get too far off topic, the list of pseudoscience is just a catch-all bin: "list of anything anyone ever objected to ever". Its not exactly xenophobia, but it is a "hegemonic self-perception" that you think one group's definitions of another must be given privilege. In this case, you give the privilege to people who are on a mission NOT to accurately convey facts but to color the subject with an unhelpful pejorative term (pre-scientific would be more accurate than pseudo). Since the sources used on TCM in the catch-all bin are mostly by Barrett and CSICOP, any use of the term would need to be qualified that it comes from controversial figures. The CSICOP article on TCM is an embarrassment - they go to China and use the quotes of non-English speakers, or very poorly translated conversations (its very clear that neither side is understanding each other's questions and answers) to make the TCM doctors look foolish, and then they claim that their questions were evaded or ignored. Read it for fun, its rubbish. And possibly racist. Herbxue (talk) 14:56, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Eh? Most of the article is not a Q&A , only one section is and a lot of it doesn't make sense because they were evading the questions: "" and also "The answers are not verbatim in every case because some were conveyed through a translator." . That you think their attempts at speaking English somehow makes them look foolish rather than the substance of what they are saying is irrelevant. That you think this is somehow racist west/east or something when they also interview medical doctors and others such as Wang Guozheng, Qui Renzong, Lin Zixin (CSI fellow), Guo Zhengyi and Zhang Tongling boggles the mind. It sounds like you have decided its racist and are twisting the source to match your perception. Can we stick to the specifics rather than getting sidetracked by irrelevant arguments? IRWolfie- (talk) 18:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Because I understand the notions the TCM doctors were attempting to convey, I know the authors did not make a good faith effort to understand or convey what they were trying to say. And it is clear the TCM docs did not fully understand the questions being asked. I don't buy the explanation that they were being intentionally evasive - and I have had MANY frustrating conversations in China.

Anyway, back to the point - if we are to present as fact the opinions of POV-pushing groups like quackwatch and CSICOP, then we should also present the views of AAAOM as factual. To label TCM with the pejorative "pseudoscientific" has more to do with politics than fact.Herbxue (talk) 21:24, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Quackwatch and CSI are not POV pushing groups. They are mainstream and well respected groups. IRWolfie- (talk) 09:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The latter has its own share of controversy, and the former reads more like a personal blog -A1candidate (talk) 11:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

CSI is a far from scientific group (those familiar with its history will need no more explanation), and Quackwatch is indeed a personal blog. Shii (tock) 20:49, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

QuackWatch with 150 scientific and technical advisors: 67 medical advisors, 12 dental advisors, 13 mental health advisors, 16 nutrition and food science advisors, 3 podiatry advisors, 8 veterinary advisors, and 33 other "scientific and technical advisors" is a blog? Let's not let the facts get in the way right? Keep your dubious opinions to yourself and focus on making policy based arguments. Quackwatch is a reliable source and has won numerous awards for its information,IRWolfie- (talk) 22:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

QuackWatch is mostly one guy, who likes to file frivolous defamation suits when other people disagree with him. It must be a rare kind of reliable source indeed who can't find a single judge to agree with his views. Shii (tock) 23:45, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Linking to what some would describe as anti-flouride nutters isn't the most convincing way to demonstrate something. I was under the impression you were attempting to get away from characterisations of pseudoscience and throwing in links to questionable organisations attacking the mainstream hardly helps to demonstrate your case, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:22, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

"As stated, Dr. Barrett often inserts his strong opinions directly into sections of an article already well supported by the literature. Although entertaining, this direct commentary may be viewed by some as less than professional medical writing and may be better reserved for its own section." (American Society of Consultant Pharmacists) -A1candidate (talk) 18:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

He has bad writing style? That's the best you've got? How about the recommendation for use: "Health care practitioners may find this site interesting with regard to what is happening in the field of complementary alternative medicine." IRWolfie- (talk) 09:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

• Sufficient time and research has been spent on TCM that I think we should be able to find sources which are more in line with MEDRS (ie, published journal articles or scholarly books) rather than using Quackwatch or CSI. If so, I think that more could be added to the article's discussion of alleged pseudoscientific elements. In less high-profile areas of alternative medicine, I'm comfortable using Quackwatch on a limited basis. I'm just not convinced this is one of those cases. II | (t - c) 20:00, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

MEDRS isn't applicable for pseudoscience since we aren't talking about medical claims. Standard sourcing in pseudoscience areas is acceptable, IRWolfie- (talk) 14:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, if that were true, I have hundreds of primary sources I'd like to include. Unfortunately, the consensus has been that MEDRS applies here. Also, there is not consensus that the insult "pseudoscience" is appropriate here.Herbxue (talk) 02:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

"MEDRS applies here" ≠ "MEDS applies to medical claims". MEDS applies to medical claims, not "here". TippyGoomba (talk) 03:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

What?Herbxue (talk) 05:43, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Your edit summary: "MEDRS either applies or it doesn't." Yes, sometimes it applies, and sometimes it doesn't. See my comment below this one. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:48, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

MEDRS applies to biomedical claims in all articles, but not to other types of content, even in the same articles.

Content related to controversies, pseudoscience, fringe science, skepticism, opinions, news, etc. are governed by our ordinary RS policy, not by MEDRS. Our "fringe theories" content guideline's wording of "parity of sources" loosens the RS requirements for fringe matters, allowing sources that might not be allowed in some other situations, simply because mainstream sources don't discuss fringe issues, but skeptical sources and major expert blogs do. In such cases, we can use them. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:38, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I've been making that claim for years, always been shut down. I feel like I'm playing a game with 7 year olds who always try to change the rules to win. If this is true - define what constitutes a "medical claim" that is subject to MEDRS. (and btw - even if Barrett is "allowable" as a source in this article, which would make many primary sources allowable, that doesn't mean we have consensus to include his opinion).Herbxue (talk) 05:58, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing you haven't been making that claim for years, since no one disagrees with it. More likely you've seen arguing MEDRS doesn't apply to some particular medical claim. "medical claim" is too complex for a cache-all definition. I have no idea what to make of your parenthetic statement. TippyGoomba (talk) 06:20, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I too am uncertain exactly what you mean, but there is a very wide consensus that QW and Barrett are generally considered RS for opinions on medical, fringe, pseudoscience, quackery, health fraud, etc. on a case by case basis. He's the world's foremost authority on quackery, and he is widely cited as such an authority. For more information on relevant discussions about QW and Barrett as sources:

Use of Quackwatch as a source An Amendment to a previous ArbCom finding has been made. In the process, important observations were made about the use of Quackwatch as a source. Other significant discussions can be found at: -- RS/N: Usage of Quackwatch as RS in medical quackery -- RS/N: How can Quackwatch be considered a "reliable source"? -- DR/N: Medical uses of silver

Brangifer (talk) 07:04, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Brangifer, if you may allow me to quote from the Arbitration Committee's findings regarding Quackwatch: "Quackwatch is a site "whose purpose is to combat health-related frauds, myths, fads, fallacies, and misconduct", and is therefore explicitly not giving a balanced presentation."

Several of Dr. Barrett's articles may have been cited by a handful of scientific organizations back in the 1990s, but I am sceptical if he still is (or ever was) the world's "foremost authority on quackery". The Stephen Barrett article certainly does not support such a claim, so could you please show me a source for that? -A1candidate (talk) 19:02, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

That is my opinion based on my long exposure to anti-quackery efforts. It's my hobby. Previously to his retirement, I would have nominated William T. Jarvis. Not only was he very knowledgeable and used widely, in much the same manner as Barrett has been used, but he was, unlike Barrett, very personable and pleasant, an impression gained from some email exchanges with both of them. If you have any nominations, I'd be glad to hear them. It really makes no difference to me. As an outstanding skeptic, he was included (by other skeptics) in the list of outstanding skeptics of the 20th century by Skeptical Inquirer magazine.

Nice cherry picking and ignoring the rest of the thread. Since when does a source have to be "balanced" for its inclusion here? Never. That discussion clearly does not forbid the use of QW, and subsequent discussions (linked above) have not done so either. On the contrary. Sources with no POV or agenda are rather blah and often of little use in our articles, and the real world is filled with RS which have an agenda and are definitely not balanced. In fact, Barrett clearly describes exactly why that lack of balance exists. It is because a false equivalency in matters where falsehood and unscientific claims exist is not a good thing. QW clearly sides with scientific evidence, and that is definitely an "unbalanced" position, and the only proper one to hold. Keep in mind that the result of that ArbCom was the banning of my opposer, so I was on the right side.

Like most other sources, including the New York Times, the appropriateness of using QW is to be judged on a case by case basis. It should be used where it is relevant, and this is certainly a topic where it is relevant.

Has someone claimed that QW is balanced? If so, they are nuts. Let's hope it never becomes balanced. That would be a tragedy and make it impossible for it to fulfill its mission. -- Brangifer (talk) 00:18, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

The overall agreement in those DR/N threads seems to be that the whether we can use Quackwatch as a RS has to be decided on a case to case basis... What case are we actually discussing here? --Mallexikon (talk) 05:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• @A1candidate you are linking to a motion that failed to be passed. It categorically failed to reach the required number of votes. That is why it is not mentioned here: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Barrett_v._Rosenthal. The situation there is also different in that it is about using sources by Barrett within the context of a lawsuit about Barrett. And as a reminder I will also say: Arbcom are forbidden from making content decisions and anything they say about content is non-binding. They are a bunch of amateurs (as we all are) who have no expertise in the medical and fringe medicine topic area. IRWolfie- (talk) 08:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It would seem to me you can only characterise TCM as pseudoscience if it claims to be scientific. Does it? I ask this as an open question. (To me, the far greater issue is the impact on wildlife of certain TCM practioners, whose current-day irresponsible promotion of certain products is having a disastrous effect on threatened and endangered species globally. Otherwise, TCM may be more or less or not at all beneficial to its patients depending on a wide range of circumstances. However, unless practioners restrict their usage of endangered species, then TCM ought to be recontextualised.) Orthorhombic, 10:03, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Wider context?

In editing the Homeopathy article recently I've been looking at de:Paul Ulrich Unschuld's rather interesting book on Western and Eastern medicine, and I think this suggests a way of addressing this topic which is outside the MEDRS/non-MEDRS question. He is arguing, for instance, that TCM is in fact a Western invention which chinese "branding", that the traditional Chinese themselves would not have recognized. Like a lot of altmed, Unschuld sees TCM as a sociological "response" to people's fears about scary modern medicine. As well as the scientific relationship between TCM and mainstream medicine, I think these aspects are valuable to explore too. Alexbrn 06:11, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Interesting find. See p. 198. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:53, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Unschuld is respected among the Chinese medicine community even though he is critical of TCM's assumptions. He is quite neutral regarding the question of what medical system is "right" - he sees it all (biomed included) as social phenomena that is dependent on current circumstances.Herbxue (talk) 17:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

It's so interesting I've ordered a hard copy - the only downside seems to be the rather clunky translation from German. Alexbrn 06:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Chairman Mao Invented Traditional Chinese Medicine, but Didn't Believe In It

Here's a RS which could be used for certain purposes:

• Chairman Mao Invented Traditional Chinese Medicine, but Didn't Believe In It. Why did the U.S. Senate unwittingly endorse 1950s Chinese Communist Party propaganda? By Alan Levinovitz, Slate, Oct. 22, 2013

Brangifer (talk) 14:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

That's not a RS, its an online blog, and it quotes a lot of from Mao using sources that can't be easily verified. The author claims, without specifically naming his sources, that Mao "invented" TCM by

1) Standardizing "inconsistent texts and idiosyncratic practices"

2) Providing us with "sensational evidence of Chinese medicine’s efficacy".

Where are his sources to back up these claims?

More importantly, you could accuse Mao of promoting and advertising TCM, but you can't say that he invented it. With more important things like the Korean War and its aftermath to worry about, it seems highly dubious that Mao would go on to invent an entire branch of medicine

To be sure, this could be a potentially important historical development, but without multiple reliable sources to back it up, its not much better than a conspiracy theory. -A1candidate (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that article is crap. It is confounding multiple issues to make the dramatic claim that recent naturopathic legislation is a result of actions from communist China. Not a serious look at the development of TCM. Herbxue (talk) 15:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

This Misplaced Pages article as currently written is the true "crap". The Slate piece is head-and-shoulders above it in terms of quality. I think that the Slate article covers the subject in a way that Misplaced Pages could really benefit from incorporating. As pointed out on WP:FTN#Fantastic source, there is a textbook currently used in this article which essentially corroborates the Slate piece. Nevertheless, our article is leaning rather heavily on a translation of a modern text and makes a number of outrageous and nearly pseudoscientific claims about the scientific plausibility of this particular system. I am more than a little concerned that the commentators who are dismissing this source may be doing so in order to preserve the current bias on the page. Hopefully this is not the case. jps (talk) 17:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

No, that is not the case. The text book referenced is excellent - Unschuld's "Medicine in China" - and it shows how the very long history of Chinese medicine was of course influenced by many cultural and political changes. Also, note that the modern version of Chinese medicine ("TCM") is practiced in a very similar way in Taiwan, Singapore and other counties independent of the influence of Mao. The fact that Mao did a 180 policy flip on TCM is significant for the establishment of the state-run universities that emphasized integration of traditional medicine and scientific biomedicine - but he had nothing to do with the content of TCM's teachings or the fact that traditional medicine was already widely practiced in and outside of China. Even the diminishing presence of some psycho-emotional (or "spiritual") aspects of Chinese medicine has been a gradual process starting in the Han dynasty and accelerated in the 20th century, even though contemporary Chinese medicine practitioners usually blame the communists for this.Herbxue (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Poor argumentation here because most of your points aren't contradicted by the Slate article. jps (talk) 19:24, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Then you missed my point. The Slate article is a sensationalist inflation and conflation of mid-20th century history with the purpose of likening it to a current legislative issue. It is not a sincere attempt to describe the development of Chinese medicine, it is a slam on current U.S. policies that uses a sliver of info about Chinese medicine to do so.Herbxue (talk) 22:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Your point, above, was "the article is crap". That's not a very intelligent point. jps (talk) 00:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing the "perfection" of Chinese medicine, in fact the lack of emperical evidence on the efficacy of Chinese medicine is noted in this wikipedia article, albeit lightly. One must remember that medicine in Chinese society has always been wrapped up in the philosophies, politics, and mysticism of its time since its very beginnings. The best that this article can do is to explain the traditional "theories", it's historical development, and perhaps include more studies from modern evidence-based medicine as comparison. The slate article is a good read, but its main point is to critique the whole heart embracing of non-scientific medical practices by the US gov and its similarities to issues in TCM and Mao's endorsement of it. As such, I'm not sure where to cite the Slate article directly. That said, inclusion of specific critiques to TCM from the Slate article should be added including: Wang Qingren's badly needed revisions of TCM, Wang Chong's mocking of the lame 5-element theory, the political and nationalistic propaganda entanglement of TCM in the 20th century, and the misreporting of James Reston's surgery. This and a good critique subsection in each TCM section would make this article feel less like an open endorsement of everything TCM. -- Sjschen (talk) 22:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed, and I'm going to start working on cleaning up the more promotional aspects of this and other related articles. Thanks for your support. jps (talk) 00:14, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, please do so. I just came here to suggest a similar process. The article is still very poor and strongly POV.84.152.21.14 (talk) 12:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Ernst on Vickers

User:‎Herbxue has removed comments by Ernst on the 2012 Vickers article, on the basis that

1. undue weight given to a letter
2. Give the study author's conclusions here, not a commenters
3. Ernst's findings are very well represented in the article already

I propose the content be reinstated. In answer to the reasons given for removal:

1. the work cited in an article in the Guardian, not a letter
2. we were not citing Ernst instead of the article's conclusions, but in addition to it. Ernst was impressed by the paper and did not contradict it - this is an opportunity to cite an expert representation of the article rather than rely on Misplaced Pages editors' views of how that should be done
3. Of course! as a foremost independent expert on this topic he should be well-represented in the article

Alexbrn 17:18, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Ernst is not the only significant researcher on acupuncture, you do not have to include his opinion about every other source in the article. For the sake of adequate weight, if you MUST include this letter as a source (which I don't see as a significant source) at least flesh out why Vickers came to that conclusion, and then include the Ernst quote - but to keep it the way you edited it gives more page space to a letter written about the article than it does to the actual MEDRS, which is what we are supposed to emphasize, right?Herbxue (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

"Ernst is not the only significant researcher on acupuncture" --> I beg to differ. WP:FRINGE#Independent sources prioritized those like Ernst who devote their lives to independently evaluating fringe claims. If you have someone else in mind, please show who they are. Make sure they aren't acupuncturists or fellow-travelers, now. jps (talk) 17:40, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Your suggestion here and elsewhere (actually it was more like a demand) that Ernst should be the only accepted source for these articles is ludicrous. Other than Quack Guru, nobody would actually take that seriously. Please cool down and try to recommend more reasonable edits.Herbxue (talk) 22:46, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem "balancing" Vickers with Ernst as long as we don't do it this way: "A peer-reviewed meta-analysis concluded so-and-so, BUT Distinguished Professor X said he disagrees, and here is his exact quote ...(....)."

We all know that in EBM, meta-analysis is at the top tier and expert opinion at the bottom. Just because some expert opinion goes one way, we don't throw out opinions, let alone findings, that go the other way. --Middle 8 (talk) 02:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

We're working on the proper wording over at acupuncture now, and once it's settled there I'll propose wording over here --Middle 8 (talk) 03:21, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Concise summary

The section was tainted with mass OR, MEDRS violations, and a whole host of problems. The section is a concise summary. Please don't use older reviews for the section. QuackGuru (talk) 02:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

I added some context to the disputed 2012 meta-analysis. It was funded by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. QuackGuru (talk) 04:06, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Criticism

I note that there is no criticism section. I respectfully suggest that there should be. TCM is based on unscientific and plainly wrong theories, and most of the remedies do not work. Many also involve the death of rare animals. TCM is the only pre-scientific medicine or science which is still being actively promoted. Should not its failings and adverse implications be at least noted?119.224.91.84 (talk) 18:30, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=chinese+herbal+medicine+review

You can help improve the article. The link shows there are many adverse implications. The adverse implications may be noted but no editor at this time is interested in writing about it. QuackGuru (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Criticism is included throughout the article. You have to put things in proper perspective however - this is an encyclopedia and an important goal is to describe the subject, persuading the reader to share your opinion about it would not be as important a goal. Concerning the animal products, you have to separate cultural quirks from the way professionals practice TCM. Rich guys in China do want to eat tiger penises and shark fins, but doctors in TCM hospitals are not prescribing those substances (including bear bile). So before you include sensationalist material, make sure you understand it in proper context.Herbxue (talk) 02:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I definetely think TCM's failings should be included. If you work on this, you could maybe use some of the material that is in the Chinese herbology article as a starting point. --Mallexikon (talk) 04:28, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Herbxue disagrees with including the studies so I am blocked from improving this article. I have no consensus. Proposal: "The research on the benefit and safety of Chinese herbal medicine for idiopathic sudden sensorineural hearing loss is of poor quality and cannot be relied upon to support their use." QuackGuru (talk) 20:02, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Idiopathic sensorineural hearing loss... This seems kind of irrelevant to me. Isn't there maybe a more generalized statement (e.g., no quality research to support the use of TCM herbs in pain syndromes or diabetes or cancer or some else notable disease)? --Mallexikon (talk) 02:41, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The article is "Chinese herbal medicine for idiopathic sudden sensorineural hearing loss: a systematic review of randomised clinical trials."

This is relevant too because it is about Chinese herbal medicine. You can also add more generalized statements too. QuackGuru (talk) 03:50, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: "There is low quality evidence that suggests Chinese herbal medicine improves the symptoms of Sjogren's syndrome." QuackGuru (talk) 04:05, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal: "A 2013 Cochrane review found inconclusive evidence that Chinese herbal medicine reduces the severity of eczema." QuackGuru (talk) 04:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Proposal:"A high percentage of relevant studies on Chinese herbal medicine are in Chinese databases. Fifty percent of systematic reviews in Chinese herbal medicine did not search Chinese databases, which could lead to a bias in the results." QuackGuru (talk) 04:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Our text as it is states: "Regarding Traditional Chinese herbal therapy, only a few trials of adequate methodology exist and its effectiveness therefore remains poorly documented." In light of this, I would recommend against repeating the same statement in the special case of Sjogren's syndrome or hearing loss. "Fifty percent of systematic reviews in Chinese herbal medicine did not search Chinese databases, which could lead to a bias in the results" might be worth including, however, we might have to back it up with some material regarding the low quality of Chinese studies in general. Otherwise, it sounds like there might be better evidence if only the Chinese studies were included (and I doubt that). --Mallexikon (talk) 05:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The statement about Sjogren's syndrome or hearing loss is specific. This is not repetitive. QuackGuru (talk) 06:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Sandbox

A high percentage of relevant studies on Chinese herbal medicine (CHM) are in Chinese databases. Fifty percent of systematic reviews on CHM did not search Chinese databases, which could lead to a bias in the results. Many systematic reviews of CHM interventions published in Chinese journals are incomplete, some contained errors or were misleading.

A 2012 review found TCM seems to be effective for the treatment of fibromyalgia but the finding were of insufficient methodological rigor. A 2012 Cochrane review found insufficient evidence to support the use of TCM for patients with adhesive small bowel obstruction. A 2005 Cochrane found insufficient evidence for the use of CHM in HIV-infected people and AIDS patients. The research on the benefit and safety of CHM for idiopathic sudden sensorineural hearing loss is of poor quality and cannot be relied upon to support their use. There is low quality evidence that suggests CHM improves the symptoms of Sjogren's syndrome. A 2013 Cochrane review found inconclusive evidence that CHM reduces the severity of eczema.

Comments on Sandbox

Hmmm... The findings for these highlighted conditions just repeat the general conclusion ("...only a few trials of adequate methodology exist and its effectiveness therefore remains poorly documented"). Since the TCM article is way too bulky already, I would recommend to include above text in the Chinese herbology article instead, and just add a template Main article: Chinese herbology § Efficacy here. --Mallexikon (talk) 07:40, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

TCM article is way too thin. See Traditional Chinese medicine#Efficacy. QuackGuru (talk) 07:54, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

? Prose size is 51 kB already! Please check WP:SIZERULE. --Mallexikon (talk) 10:19, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

The chiropractic page is over 100 kB. One edit like this is what the reader wants. QuackGuru (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Recent edits

This discussion was also started at WikiProject Medicine. In the future, avoid this type of canvassing/splitting discussions. Keep them together. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

A few editors are trying to add the following statement:

Quackwatch stated that, the TCM theories are so nebulous that no amount of scientific study will enable TCM to offer rational care"

This clearly falls under WP:SPECULATION. -A1candidate (talk) 10:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. This is not encyclopaedic content. --Mallexikon (talk) 10:35, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I think your understanding of this is poor, and reflects in the article. I await comments from the noticeboard --Roxy the dog (resonate) 10:55, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

How could it be speculation when it is sourced. If there is still an issue it could of been reworded. QuackGuru (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

I've removed it. A source can speculate can it not? This isn't a secondary source as per WP:MEDRS. CFCF (talk) 15:59, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems to me a very clear tertiary source.CFCF (talk) 16:03, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I've fixed the broken page by restoring the page 2 edits ago, including the perfectly satisfactory Barrett part. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 16:12, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

WTF has been going on? Do we still have editors who violate NPOV by removing opposing opinions? That's whitewashing and is not allowed here. QW has been deemed a RS for such content. Keep it and stop the edit warring or we're going to see some editors topic banned. If you have a problem with how the wording is framed, that's another matter and can be discussed, but the source stays. It's a very notable opinion about TCM. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:44, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Please refrain from profanity, notable or not it isn't a secondary source, and can not be cited in those sections as per WP:MEDRS. I am in no way a follower of Chinese medicine, but we need to use the proper sources. Read WP:MEDRS. Furthermore that revert was in error, you can't justify restoring content because of a previous faulty citation, where the reference was defined in the dead centre of an article. CFCF (talk) 16:51, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

There are not numerous sources for TCM. The Quackwatch source was cautiously used to bring balance to this article per NPOV. If you see the German Acupuncture Trials there are many primary sources and secondary sources that fail MEDRS. There is some editorial discretion with each article. QuackGuru (talk) 17:27, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Alright then, I removed the template from the lede, but I am strongly in favor of better sources as I am very aware there are many of. I'll look into it once I have time.CFCF (talk) 17:49, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

CFCF, Thank you. It is a notable opinion related to the controversies over TCM and related practices. As such it does not have to meet MEDRS. Also, because it represents an opposing POV, it helps the article to meet NPOV. Naturally believers in TCM, acupuncture, meridians, etc., will find it a disagreeable statement, and that's okay. A truly NPOV article will always have content which offends someone, and that's really how it should be.

As far as MEDRS goes, I'm very well aware of its proper application. I've been around from before it was created. It applies to biomedical and scientific claims, not to opinions or descriptions of dissenting opinion or controversy. That's why MEDRS only applies to relevant parts of articles, not to the whole article. QW represents the maintream medical POV and is highly respected within mainstream medicine, but is obviously hated by those it criticizes. So be it. It is the canary in the coalmine when it comes to dealing with fringe matters, quackery, and healthfraud, and those who don't like its criticisms would love to kill that canary. One of the first and most obvious tells of a pusher of fringe POV is that they attack QW. That's a big red flag, and essentially is like placing a target on one's own back around here. Everyone who values scientific accuracy, including many admins, will watch such editors (see my comment to Herbxue below) very carefully. Misplaced Pages's policies regarding RS are closely tied with the demands of the scientific method, so the actions of such editors are often at odds with our policies because their unscientific way of thinking places them at odds with scientific facts and RS. The two go together much of the time.

BTW, please explain what you mean by a "faulty citation"? Maybe that can be fixed. Thanks again. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

I fixed the citation issue. As I'm aware citations should be defined where they are first used, or at the bottom of the page under References, but this one was invoked at the top of the page, and defined in the middle. So when I removed the sentence from the efficacy section it became red at the top of the page. I'll buy your arguments concerning the lede, and am happy now as long as it isn't unnecessarily thrown out there alongside Cochrane reviews. CFCF (talk) 08:52, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Quackwatch is the Fox news of medicine. The tone of the questionable sentence is so colored and dismissive that it can't be taken seriously.Herbxue (talk) 19:25, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Coming from you, that opinion does not surprise me. Take note of my reply to CFCF in this edit (above), which refers more to editors like you. Your edits are watched, and your professional COI has been known for a long time, so be a bit more circumspect and neutral. Actually, NaturalNews is the Fox News of medicine, IOW consistently on the opposite side from medical and scientific facts. It takes an uncanny knowledge and hatred of truth and/or incredible stupidity, to consistently promote what has been proven false. -- Brangifer (talk) 23:22, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

BR everyone around here knows I'm a reasonable guy that plays nice and respects the norms, but the sweeping "throw the baby out with the bathwater" rhetoric that QW uses, and that you used (that TCM has "been proven false") infuriates me because it shows more of a POV rather than a true respect for science (which would be evidenced by withholding judgement until enough data were in, or better yet, only commenting on the facts that are known and not using them to make sweeping assertions like a whole system of medicine, with all its diversity, is somehow a single unit that can be proven false. It just gets my goat.Herbxue (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Herbxue, if I had actually written "(that TCM has "been proven false")," I would certainly modify it as a typo, but you are the one who is putting those words in my mouth by applying them to TCM. I was specifically referring to NaturalNews, not TCM. Those are two very different subjects. Therefore the rest of your comment needs to be revised completely, in accordance with my clarification, as it doesn't apply to my beliefs. I'm actually much more nuanced than that, especially when pushed to clarify my beliefs in detail. If you are ever in doubt again, just ask me (AGF), rather than accuse me. Thanks. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:17, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Duly noted BR, my primary goal was to explain my dislike of the QW quote in question, not to attack you. It was my impression that your post meant that "TCM" had been proven false, which would be like saying that "science" has been proven true. My apologies if I misread you.Herbxue (talk) 06:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Like! -- Brangifer (talk) 18:31, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I went back and saw that the portion had been restored to the efficacy section again. The problem as I see it is that the sentence is presented as a fringe view denying any effect of TCM treatments. I went back and read the article, and attempted to cite it in a less ambiguous way. Now it doesn't refer to individual treatments (the type that after scientific inquiry have been shown to work at times), but rather to general TCM theories which seem to be unequivocally rubbish. CFCF (talk) 09:03, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

"...TCM theories are so nebulous that no amount of scientific study will enable TCM to offer rational care" is about the most useless opinion I've heard regarding this topic... What do they even mean with "rational care"? Obviously they don't mean "evidence based" (because than they would have said it. And their prediction would already be wrong anyway)... And to categorically predict for the future that no amount of scientific study will be able make TCM a rational treatment decision is about the most un-scientific stance I've heard in a long time. This is a totally useless piece of POV WP:CRYSTALBALLing and I'm pretty appalled by experienced editors like Brangifer defending it. I propose immediate deletion. --Mallexikon (talk) 04:36, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

You don't like it? Then it appears that NPOV is working its magic. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:15, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

No, these additions violate Misplaced Pages's core editing policies, just like how your blatant accusations are grossly uncivil and violates Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. -A1candidate (talk) 09:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Which "core editing policies"? Maybe that big one about NPOV, our most sacred policy? It requires that RSed opposing opinions, facts, whatever, be included to provide full coverage of the subject, and that whitewashing is not allowed just because someone doesn't like those differing opinions (which happen to make perfect sense to those with the opposing POV).

You really need to study WP:Writing for the opponent and stop the deletionism and whitewashing. I had to learn to do that early on, and it was only when a chiropractor, who also understood that, began to edit the chiropractic article, that it finally began to make huge progress. He understood that the article must contain RSed criticisms of chiropractic, and he allowed them to remain. Now the article contains lots of RS stuff that make me, a chiroskeptic, and chiropractors themselves, all somewhat uncomfortable. That's what a truly NPOV article does, and that's okay. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. What specifically concerns me is how you tried to intimidate anyone who might not be of your opinion ("One of the first and most obvious tells of a pusher of fringe POV is that they attack QW. That's a big red flag, and essentially is like placing a target on one's own back around here") in general, and Herbxue in particular. Would you bother to apologize? --Mallexikon (talk) 09:47, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Well done for stating the obvious here Brangifer --Roxy the dog (resonate) 19:07, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Mallexikon. No. One can choose to wear the shoe if it fits, or not. It is not my choice that determines the matter. If Herbxue, or anyone else, insists on wearing the shoe, because that's where they are coming from, then let them stand by their beliefs, but know that there are consequences. (There is also another option, and that is that they will learn and change their POV.) That's just the way it works. We don't tolerate pushing fringe POV, or opposition to mainstream POV. We simply include both POV using RS.

Anyone who is anti-quackbusting (IOW against QW), is obviously anti-anti-quackery, and that double negative means they are pushers of quackery, and anyone who is a pusher of fringe POV, rather than an editor who is willing to allow RSed material from both POV in articles, will be watched more closely. This is not some sort of FringeOpedia. Here we state scientific facts and opinions as what they are, and fringe opinions as what they are. Note that "pushing mainstream facts" and "pushing fringe POV" are not equal. The first is recommended, and the second is often a blockable offense. Why? Because the first never runs out of RS, which the second very quickly does. It quickly resorts to fringe, unRS, and we don't use them here.

What this really boils down to is not one's own personal POV, but whether one is able to edit in an NPOV manner by allowing RSed opposing POV in articles. We have some editors with very fringe POV who are able to do that, but not many. Too many are too religiously tied to their beliefs to abide by the purpose of being here, which is to write an NPOV encyclopedia, and not to misuse Misplaced Pages to push a fringe POV as if it were fact. -- Brangifer (talk) 02:57, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Since the content and placement (the content in the lead is significantly different) have been significantly altered from what they were at the beginning, to the seeming satisfaction of some members of both POV, can we close this discussion? -- Brangifer (talk) 04:00, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

"Anyone who is anti-quackbusting (IOW against QW), is obviously anti-anti-quackery, and that double negative means they are pushers of quackery..." Yes, as far as I can see this belief is very much consistent with your behavior. What you display here is WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality. And that always leads straight to personal attacks (like the ones you displayed above, basically stating that all of us who don't want this useless QW quote in the article are pushers of quackery). Please read WP:POV railroad and wonder why I think your conduct fits that description. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:15, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, that is using logic and the rules of the English language. You aren't getting my point because you are not AGF. Violation of NPOV through whitewashing is usually a sign of battlefield behavior. I am not the one trying to keep QW's opposing POV out of the article. Rather than making this a battlefield, I am inviting editors who are violating NPOV to stop it and allow for the presentation of opposing POV. You may have missed that element in my comments. If editors resist my message, then they are the ones creating a battlefield situation. Why not just seek to collaborate and cooperate? It's not an either/or situation. Compromise can often work well. Try reading my comments again.

The comments now seem to be unproductive, so let's step back and look at the article itself. The current version, including your movement of the QW material to a better section (even though you still think it's useless ), is better. Since the content and placement (the content in the lead is significantly different and very neutral) have been significantly altered from what they were at the beginning of this discussion, to the seeming satisfaction of some members of both POV, can we close this discussion? Regardless of what we may feel, the discussion has resulted in changes which have improved the article from what it was at the beginning. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:46, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any lack of AGF on the part of Mallexikon or A1Candidate, and no suppression of a differing point of view, just a rejection of one quote that is truly questionable from QW. As far as I can tell, I am the only one here who categorically hates Quack Watch. Other editors' rejection of that specific quote from QW are just an example of an honest assessment of the source in question.Herbxue (talk) 06:41, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

I will concede that QW is not a good high quality medical source as were the other Cochrane sources. That is why I removed it from the efficacy section as it was clearly in an area where WP:MEDRS applies, this was my only objection. Currently it resides in a section which can impossibly be MEDRS compliant and I see no reason to exclude it when so much detail is taken into account from the pro-TCM community. Furthermore as I added, it is now apparent that Quack-watch is an independent think-tank and not a large-scale medical review organization such as Cochrane. CFCF (talk) 07:54, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Correct on all points. It's in a much better location now. There is one thing a bit odd though. QuackGuru did notice something I hadn't seen, which is a LEAD violation, but that has been fixed. There is still a bit of a disconnect. We usually use the larger material/quote/whatever, with the context, in the body, and then use only part of it in the lead. In this case we are quoting from the same source, but using different parts in each place, which means that context is missing from the part in the body. I think the part in the body needs more context, and that happens to be in the lead. I'll try fixing the body part by using the whole quote and let's see if that works better. Things separated from their context often cause problems anyway. -- Brangifer (talk) 18:45, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Edit did not match edit summary

This edit deleted the specific animal products that have little research to justify their clinical efficacy. This was not an improvement. QuackGuru (talk) 07:15, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

This change does not make any sense because it separated the two sentences that go together. "There has been little research to justify the claimed clinical efficacy of these TCM animal products." But which animal products. QuackGuru (talk) 04:18, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

All of them. And if you may have noted, we already had tiger bone and rhinoceros horn in the text already. Why do you insist of telling the reader twice? --Mallexikon (talk) 04:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The meaning of the text has been altered again. QuackGuru (talk) 04:48, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the references should stay in the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 04:52, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

If you want to fundamentally change the "no-sources-in-the-lead" convention we've been having, you need consensus. And you would have to include sources for all the other the material in the lead then, too, in order to be consistent. --Mallexikon (talk) 04:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

For medicals claims we need sources especially when the text is being whitewashed or drastically changed in the lead.

The text in the lead has been whitewashed. I propose the text in the lead should be restored: "A number of potentially toxic Chinese herbal medicine (CHM) consists of plants, animal parts and minerals." The continued whitewashing is not right.

Propose to restore text: Some TCM textbooks have recommended preparations containing animal tissues like tiger bones, antelope, buffalo or rhino horns, deer antlers, testicles and penis bone of the dog, bear or snake bile. There has been little research to justify the claimed clinical efficacy of these TCM animal products. QuackGuru (talk) 05:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

1.) The information has not been changed. What do you mean by whitewashing? 2.) Are you aware that "A number of potentially toxic Chinese herbal medicine (CHM) consists of plants, animal parts and minerals" is extremely awkward, to an extent that it's grammatically questionable? 3.) Are you aware that we have to paraphrase text in order to avoid WP:Plagiarism? --Mallexikon (talk) 05:37, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Plagiarism? We are covered by fair use laws, so exact quotes are also allowable, and to avoid OR, are sometimes preferable. Providing quotation marks and the source make it normal practice. -- Brangifer (talk) 07:37, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but then you're talking about quotes, which should be used with caution (cf WP:QUOTEFARM). --Mallexikon (talk) 07:44, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

There was no quotes. Quotes were not needed. There was no plagiarism. I rewrote the text. Stop making excuses for deleting text you don't like. The whitewashing in the lead is extremely obvious. QuackGuru (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"A number of Chinese medicinals are potentially toxic which include plants, animal parts and minerals" should go in the lead to summarise the body.

At the end of the Traditional Chinese medicine#Animal substances it says: There has been little research to justify the claimed clinical efficacy of these TCM animal products. That is false. It is not all of the animal products in the section. You created original research. QuackGuru (talk) 05:24, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

1.) "... include plants, animal parts and minerals" is still grammatically incorrect. Also, it's superfluous. The reader is already told that CHM consists of plants/minerals/animal parts in the appropriate subsection. Why do you want to repeat this here? 2.) Alright. I think you are too picky (we already told the reader that efficiency for CHM in general is poorly documented), but I'll delete the "these". --Mallexikon (talk) 05:37, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

A number of Chinese herbal medicinals (CHM) are potentially toxic? No.

A number of Chinese medicinals are potentially toxic... is correct. It is more than the herbs according to the source you deleted from the lead. QuackGuru (talk) 05:44, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"Medicinal" already includes minerals and animal parts. I added some RS material to avoid this misunderstanding. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:59, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

"As traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) has become more popular there have been increasing concerns about safety and potential toxicity of the Chinese materia medica (CMM) comprising plants, animal parts and minerals." The current text in the lead failed verification. QuackGuru (talk) 05:53, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Alright, I'll reword. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:59, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

You have shown we need to restore the references in the lead. One wrong word and the entire sentence is original research. QuackGuru (talk) 06:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I've already said what there is to say about the lead-source convention here. --Mallexikon (talk) 07:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

You continue to add original research to the lead. "there are concerns about the potential toxicity of some of the medicinals in use" The references to the lead must be restored for challenged text. The word "some" is original research.

This was was more whitewashing because you deleted the part about the plants, animal parts and minerals are potentially toxic. This must be restored: A number of potentially toxic Chinese medicinals consists of plants, animal parts and minerals. Please stop deleting text you don't like. QuackGuru (talk) 16:36, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't delete text I don't like, I just delete superfluous text. We already said in the article that medicinals can be plant parts, animal parts, or minerals. Why is it so important to you to state that here again? And why are you so irritated by the word "some"? It's definitely wrong to talk about medicinals in general when it comes to potential toxicity. --Mallexikon (talk) 09:08, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

On second thought: Maybe there is a misunderstanding here and some more context could simmer you down a little... Please read Chinese herbology#Toxicity. --Mallexikon (talk) 09:17, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

You do delete text you don't like. The text was missing a lot of information you deleted. See QuackGuru (talk) 16:47, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Mallexikon, do you think you have deleted text you don't like? QuackGuru (talk) 23:40, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Edits on "Legal and political status" vol. I

User:QuackGuru was kind enough to add some material about the German acupuncture trials here... You know, the set of large trials that resulted in acupuncture being added to the list of reimbursable services in the German statutory health system.
Interestingly, the text that was added by QG reads: "As a result of the trial's conclusions, some insurance corporations in Germany no longer reimburse acupuncture treatments. The trials also had a negative impact on acupuncture in the international community."
I try to AGF in this case, but unfortunately I know that QG knows that the GERAC resulted in acupuncture being reimbursable in Germany (as we have been working on that article together)... To leave this tiny fact out, and instead only present the side-note material about some health insurances allegedy not reimbursing acupuncture anymore and alleged negative impact on the international community, is a disgustingly obvious attempt to skew the facts. I know we have our differences in perspective here, but there're some rules for chrissake. If you're willing to skew the facts in this way, maybe you should stop for a minute and ask yourself whether your POV got the better of you.--Mallexikon (talk) 08:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. On the second point, the "negative impact on acupuncture in the international community", I think the idea is that since the results of the study were that sham and real acu were equivalent, more people started questioning or doubting the efficacy of acupuncture. This needs to be better-phrased, and needs a source, although it is true. (It seems perverse that they decided to reimburse for acu even though it didn't do better than the placebo control, but I suppose the thinking is that the clinical choice isn't between real and sham, but between real acu and doing nothing. At any rate, as many editors know, some studies, and reviews, have found real acu statistically superior to sham, and there is no general agreement on whether acu in general is a placebo.) Regarding tendentious editing, I no longer belief QG is trustworthy when it comes to honestly representing sources or talk page discussion (see discussion at Talk:Acupuncture earlier this month, when four different editors criticized his conduct). --Middle 8 (talk) 14:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Edits on "Legal and political status" vol. II

This source QG uses: "He, W.; Tong, Y.; Zhao, Y.; Zhang, L. et al. (2013). "Review of controlled clinical trials on acupuncture versus sham acupuncture in Germany". Journal of traditional Chinese medicine 33 (3): 403–7" is an analysis done by Chinese doctors, published in a Beijiing-based journal. It does not constitute a reliable source regarding details about the German health care system. Their claim about some health insurances not reimbursing acupuncture anymore has not been echoed by any other source about the GERAC (and there are a lot them), it hasn't been backed up with a source by the article's authors, and they didn't specify on it either (which health insurance are they talking about?). It has to be suspected that their claim is just hearsay. --Mallexikon (talk) 08:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Alright then! I'll invoke WP:MEDSCI ("Be careful of material published in a journal that lacks peer review or that reports material in a different field" - in this case, a TCM journal that reports details about the German health care system) to delete this source (unless someone objects). --Mallexikon (talk) 08:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:MEDRS violations again

I deleted the MEDRS violation. We have a recent 2013 review for the antimalarial herb artemisia annua. QuackGuru (talk) 02:24, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

The source given was a primary source (by the scientist who discovered artmisinin), so of course you're right... But I'd like to point out that the information was obviously correct (a simple query of the wikilinks substantiated it), and could be easily MEDRS'd (as I did now). So why did you delete it anyway? Trying to delete anything positive about TCM if you can, even when it's true? --Mallexikon (talk) 07:36, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

You did not MEDRS the sources. You added dated sources. I replaced it with better sources. QuackGuru (talk) 19:38, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

You continue to (intentionally?) misunderstand WP:MEDDATE... if you have a newer and better source - great. But don't delete RS material without discussion. For some material, there are no newer sources or there don't have to be newer source (just read WP:MEDDATE again, will ya?). --Mallexikon (talk) 06:45, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I re-instated the sourced material you deleted, but I kept your newer (and better) efficacy sources. Please note that artemisinin and huperzine A do not constitute regular CHM. Thus, they need a little more context. --Mallexikon (talk) 07:01, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

You should not restore MEDRS violations. For example, the 2003 source is too old. QuackGuru (talk) 03:47, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

"Efficiency has been documented in the case of artemisinin, a malaria medication which is extracted from Artemisia annua,"

"The insistence that artemisinin derivatives must be used in combination therapy (Figure 1) may protect it from resistance, at least for some time. This will require careful evaluation of the efficacy of the added drug to protect artemisinin. The one hope is that the use of artemisinin combination therapy will remain effective and that mortality associated with a change in drugs will be prevented."

The current text is original search. It does not summarise the source. The other problem is it is a cherry picked primary source. QuackGuru (talk) 04:16, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

1.) The facts that artemisinin is an important malaria medication extracted from Artemisisa annua will not change, thus, WP:MEDDATE does not apply. Both of these facts are mentioned in the source. Please explain why you think this original research.

2.) On what ground grounds do you challenge this source to not be reliable? This kind of tagging you indulge in has to be well founded, you know? Otherwise it'd be a case of WP:Tag bombing, which is punishable by a block. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:36, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

I previously explained the text is original research and the sources are old or unreliable. You have not provided verification because the text it is original research.

Efficiency has been documented in the case of artemisinin, a malaria medication which is extracted from Artemisia annua, a traditional Chinese herb of the "heat-clearing" category. A 2012 review found that artemisinin-based remedies are the most effective drugs for the treatment of malaria.

Another example of CHM that has attracted the interest of medical science is huperzine A, which is extracted from Huperzia serrata. However, a 2013 systematic review and meta-analysis found only poor quality evidence that huperzine A seems to improve cognitive function and daily living activity for Alzheimer's disease.

"The facts that artemisinin is an important malaria medication extracted from Artemisisa annua will not change" is not what the source says. The reference 187 is older and you have not shown it is a review. There is a newer a 2013 systematic review on the topic. The reference 187 obviously violated MEDRS.

The reference 188 is from the Institute for Traditional Medicine, Portland, Oregon. It is not a review and it is not about efficacy. The reference 188 obviously violated MEDRS.

The reference 190 is from 2003. The reference 190 obviously violated MEDRS. A 10 year old reference is way to old when you know there are newer sources on the topic.

The 187 reference says:"These studies were the first to suggest that combination therapy should be considered to prevent recurrence and development of resistance (Jiang et al., 1982 and Li et al., 1984)."

The 187 reference also says:"The insistence that artemisinin derivatives must be used in combination therapy (Figure 1) may protect it from resistance, at least for some time. This will require careful evaluation of the efficacy of the added drug to protect artemisinin. The one hope is that the use of artemisinin combination therapy will remain effective and that mortality associated with a change in drugs will be prevented."

"Efficiency has been documented in the case of artemisinin," is original research. The source did not say it has efficiency alone. Again, the source said: "the hope is that the use of artemisinin combination therapy will remain effective."

The current text using the 187 reference is original research because the source did not say what is currently in the article. You do not have WP:CON for the recently added original research and disputed sources. QuackGuru (talk) 22:19, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

1.) "Efficiency has been documented in the case of artemisinin, a malaria medication which is extracted from Artemisia annua" is knowledge/information that will not change anymore. Thus, WP:MEDDATE does not apply. The source given here is a secondary source from a respected scientific journal. It is noted in the article that artemisinin is effective in treating malaria ("...the paper describing artemisinin's X-ray crystal structure, pharmacology, and efficacy against nonsevere and severe cerebral malaria..."). This is perfectly compliant with MEDRS.,/br> 2.) "... a traditional Chinese herb of the "heat-clearing" category" is also knowledge/information that doesn't change any more. This is the traditional view of TCM. The source given is reliable for TCM content.
3.) "Another example of CHM that has attracted the interest of medical science is huperzine A, which is extracted from Huperzia serrata" is, again, knowledge/information that does not change anymore. Thus, WP:MEDDATE does not apply.
I think I've been very patient in pointing this out to you twice now. If you insist on tagging this even though you've been explained repeatedly that and why there's no problem, I'll push for some kind of third-party review of this article. As I've emphasized before, disruptive tagging is punishable by a block. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Artemisinin is an effective antimalarial but drug production requires an expensive industrial isolation and purification process; so what is the relevance to "traditional Chinese medicine"? The whole plant is not an effective antimalarial. Alexbrn 08:33, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Extracts of traditionally used medicinal plants, minerals, or animals are generally considered to be part of contemporary TCM, especially in Asia. Popular examples include "Huang Lian Su" (extracted berberine from coptis used as an antibiotic) and "Kang Lai Te" (extract of yiyiren / job's tear used as a chemotherapeutic agent) - the modern use of the isolate is similar/the same/ or related to the traditional use of the whole medicinal/herb.Herbxue (talk) 08:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

"is similar/the same/ or related to the traditional use" ← for Artemisinin, your source? Alexbrn 09:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

(Add) In this source it states that it was only by moving away from the "traditional" methods and adopting a method of ethanol-based extraction that an effective drug was found. This source was being used without mentioning this (naughty!) Alexbrn 09:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

The source says "After reading the ancient Chinese medical description, “take one bunch of Qinghao, soak in two sheng (∼0.4 liters) of water, wring it out to obtain the juice and ingest it in its entirety” in The Handbook of Prescriptions for Emergency Treatments by Ge Hong (283–343 CE) during the Jin Dynasty, she realized that traditional methods of boiling and high-temperature extraction could damage the active ingredient. Indeed, a much better extract was obtained after switching from ethanol to ether extraction at lower temperature." I re-instated the material. --Mallexikon (talk) 09:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

For similarities between the TCM use of Qing Hao for fevers categorized in the same way as malaria, see traditional formulas "Hao Qin Qing Dan Tang" and "Qing Hao Bie Jia Tang", for context, see: http://94.23.146.173/ficheros/337d241415a79b1c4b2a8cad4b9d886d.pdf; http://www.yorkspark.co.uk/?p=332; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22033738; http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-540-79116-4_11. These are not meant to prove to you that the use of artiminsin grows from a traditional viewpoint only, it is to show you that TCM considers such extracts to be part of its evolving materia medica, and many of the researchers delivering these extracts are doctors trained in both TCM and biomedicine (as we all are now).Herbxue (talk) 09:27, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

"grows from a traditional viewpoint" ← I can go with that (and have done so with the new "Drug discoveries" section). But including this material in a way that implies that artiminsin tells us anything about the "efficacy" of "herbal medicine" in TCM (itself) is very bad, without RS explicitly backing that. Alexbrn 09:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

"Very bad"? What does that mean? You seem to miss my point. "TCM" is a term coined in the 1950's and is inclusive of Han dynasty theories and practices as well as contemporary theories and practices. The word "藥" which we translate as "herb" or "herbal medicine" for convenience actually means "drug" or "medicinal". TCM considers artiminsin, berberine, ginsenoside, etc. to be treatments that are part of TCM, both developed by and used by TCM practitioners. If you want to say that they say nothing about the formative theory of TCM developed in the Warring States to Han dynasty, that would obviously be accurate, but don't confuse the "Traditional" in TCM as being synonymous with "ancient".Herbxue (talk) 10:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Mallexikon - I had re-added the material (properly represented, in a new section) already, so you duplicated it. By putting this in the "Herbal medicine" section you are misrepresenting what is being discussed, as well as misrepresenting the source. Alexbrn 09:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Ouch, sorry! Didn't realize I duplicated it. New section actually makes sense. --Mallexikon (talk) 09:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Mallexikon You recent changes have duplicated material in the detail article and contradicted it, giving out-of-date/false health information about the drug's current effectiveness. There's also some OR/SYN going on by mentioning this "heart-clearing" stuff in this context. Alexbrn 10:42, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

The text failed verification and the sources were not MEDRS complaint. Mallexikon did not provide verification for the original research and did not show the sources were MEDRS complaint but decided to removed the tags when the sources and text had problems. Before restoring disputed text and sources there must be consensus first. I moved the sourced text that is not about efficacy to other articles. QuackGuru (talk) 23:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

You seem to misunderstand something here... if you want to delete reliably sourced text, you need consensus for that. And why is the "Drug discoveries" section that Alexbrn created not there anymore? --Mallexikon (talk) 04:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

You have to gain consensus to restore the newly added text. I moved the text about the "Drug discoveries" to the other articles. QuackGuru (talk) 19:06, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

The continued problems with the text and new section were explained here. Since editors are unable to work out the problems here I posted a comment at a noticeboard. QuackGuru (talk) 18:42, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

@QG, we should be able work stuff out here; it takes patience and compromise, and some AGF (e.g., being open to the idea that if I'm the only one who thinks there's a problem and others are asking me to move on, I should probably move on). Comments:

• OR: I don't see OR happening here; I do see you repeating the charge, but don't see why. Can you explain or provide a diff for your reasoning?
• The Cell source is indeed secondary, being a history of artemesinin. You keep insisting it's primary, which reminds me of when you kept insisting at Talk:Acu that a particular meta-analysis had to be primary because the authors referred to it as a "study" and it reported "findings".
• MEDDATE makes exceptions in this case as Mallexikon already pointed out, yet you just keep repeating the "MEDRS violation" mantra. We went through a variation on this at Talk:Acu as well, which wasted more time. That gets frustrating for all of us.

thanks, and Happy New Year from my time zone, --Middle 8 (talk) 07:42, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

For starters, the "heart-clearing" stuff is SYN. I removed the SYN. Scientists are moving away from traditional methods. The drug is not a traditional Chinese herb of the "heat-clearing" category.

Read this previous comment: "Mallexikon You recent changes have duplicated material in the detail article and contradicted it, giving out-of-date/false health information about the drug's current effectiveness. There's also some OR/SYN going on by mentioning this "heart-clearing" stuff in this context. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 10:42, 26 December 2013 (UTC)"

"After reading the ancient Chinese medical description, “take one bunch of Qinghao, soak in two sheng (∼0.4 liters) of water, wring it out to obtain the juice and ingest it in its entirety” in The Handbook of Prescriptions for Emergency Treatments by Ge Hong (283–343 CE) during the Jin Dynasty, she realized that traditional methods of boiling and high-temperature extraction could damage the active ingredient. Indeed, a much better extract was obtained after switching from ethanol to ether extraction at lower temperature."

I replaced non-neutral text with text that is closer to the source. QuackGuru (talk) 03:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Historical reference

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16787890 QuackGuru (talk) 22:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Non-notable or duplicate sources moved to talk

• Aung, S.K.H. & Chen, W.P.D. (2007): "Clinical introduction to medical acupuncture". Thieme Medical Publishers. ISBN 978-1-58890-221-4
• Benowitz, Neal L. (2000) Review of adverse reaction reports involving ephedrine-containing herbal products. “Submitted to U.S. Food and Drug Administration. 17 January.
• Chan T.Y. (2002). "Incidence of herb-induced aconitine poisoning in Hong Kong: impact of publicity measures to promote awareness among the herbalists and the public". Drug Saf. 25 (11): 823–828. doi:10.2165/00002018-200225110-00006. PMID 12222992. {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Chang, Stephen T. The Great Tao; Tao Longevity; ISBN 978-0-942196-01-6 Stephen T. Chang
• Cheng, X. (1987). Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion (1st ed.). Foreign Languages Press. ISBN 7-119-00378-X.
• Clavey, Steven (1995): "Fluid physiology and pathology in traditional Chinese medicine". Elsevier. 2nd edition, 2003. ISBN 978-0-443-07194-2
• Deng, T. (1999): "Practical diagnosis in traditional Chinese medicine". Elsevier. 5th reprint, 2005. ISBN 978-0-443-04582-0
• Epler, Dean (1980). "Blood-letting in Early Chinese Medicine and its Relation to the Origins of Acupuncture". Bulletin of the History of Medicine. 54 (3): 337–67. PMID 6998524Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Ergil, Marnae C.; Ergil, Kevin V. (2009). Pocket Atlas of Chinese Medicine. Stuttgart: Thieme. ISBN 978-3-13-141611-7Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Flaws, Bob (1990): "Sticking to the Point" Blue Poppy Press. 10th Printing, 2007. ISBN 978-0-936185-17-0
• Flaws, B., & Finney, D., (1996): "A handbook of TCM patterns & their treatments" Blue Poppy Press. 6th Printing 2007. ISBN 978-0-936185-70-5
• Foster, S. & Yue, C. (1992): "Herbal emissaries: bringing Chinese herbs to the West". Healing Arts Press. ISBN 978-0-89281-349-0
• Goldschmidt, Asaf (2009). The Evolution of Chinese Medicine: Song Dynasty, 960–1200. London and New York: Routledge. ISBN 978-0-415-42655-8Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Harper, Donald (1998). Early Chinese Medical Literature: The Mawangdui Medical Manuscripts. London and New York: Kegan Paul International. ISBN 978-0-7103-0582-4Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Holland, Alex Voices of Qi: An Introductory Guide to Traditional Chinese Medicine; North Atlantic Books, 2000; ISBN 978-1-55643-326-9
• Hongyi, L., Hua, T., Jiming, H., Lianxin, C., Nai, L., Weiya, X., Wentao, M. (2003) Perivascular Space: Possible anatomical substrate for the meridian. Journal of Complementary and Alternative Medicine. 9:6 (2003) pp851–859
• Jin, Guanyuan, Xiang, Jia-Jia and Jin, Lei: Clinical Reflexology of Acupuncture and Moxibustion; Beijing Science and Technology Press, Beijing, 2004. ISBN 978-7-5304-2862-7
• Kaptchuck, Ted J., (2000): "The Web That Has No Weaver" 2nd edition. Contemporary Books. ISBN 978-0-8092-2840-9
• Kiessler, Malte (2005): "Traditionelle Chinesische Innere Medizin". Elsevier, Urban&FischerVerlag. ISBN 978-3-437-57220-3
• Liao, Yuqun 廖育群 (1991). "Qin Han zhi ji zhenjiu liaofa lilun de jianli" 秦漢之際鍼灸療法理論的建立 ". Ziran kexue yanjiu 自然科學研究 . 10: 272–79Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite journal}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |journal= (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Liu, Zheng-Cai (1999): "A Study of Daoist Acupuncture & Moxibustion" Blue Poppy Press, first edition. ISBN 978-1-891845-08-6
• Lo, Vivienne (2002). "Introduction". In Lu Gwei-djen and Joseph Needham (ed.). Celestial Lancets: A History and Rationale of Acupuncture and Moxa. London and New York: Routledge Curzon. pp. xxv–li. ISBN 978-0-7007-1458-2Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Lu, Gwei-djen; Needham, Joseph (1980). "Celestial Lancets: A History and Rationale of Acupuncture and Moxa". Cambridge: Cambridge University PressTemplate:Inconsistent citations {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Maciocia, Giovanni, The Foundations of Chinese Medicine: A Comprehensive Text for Acupuncturists and Herbalists; Churchill Livingstone; ISBN 978-0-443-03980-5
• Matuk, C. (2006) "Seeing the Body: The Divergence of Ancient Chinese and Western Medical Illustration", JBC Vol. 32, No. 1 2006, retrieved 2011-02-20
• Men, J. & Guo, L. (2010) "A General Introduction to Traditional Chinese Medicine" Science Press. ISBN 978-1-4200-9173-1
• Ni, Mao-Shing, The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine: A New Translation of the Neijing Suwen with Commentary; Shambhala, 1995; ISBN 978-1-57062-080-5
• Peng, Bangjiong 彭邦炯 (ed.) (2008). Jiaguwen yixue ziliao: shiwen kaobian yu yanjiu 甲骨文医学资料: 释文考辨与研究 . Beijing: Renmin weisheng chubanshe. ISBN 978-7-117-09270-8Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: |first= has generic name (help); Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Porkert, Manfred (1974). The Theoretical Foundations of Chinese Medicine. MIT Press. ISBN 978-0-262-16058-2. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
• Qu, Jiecheng, When Chinese Medicine Meets Western Medicine – History and Ideas (in Chinese); Joint Publishing (H.K.), 2004; ISBN 978-962-04-2336-9
• Ross, Jeremy (1984) "Zang Fu, the organ systems of traditional Chinese medicine" Elsevier. First edition 1984. ISBN 978-0-443-03482-4
• Scheid, Volker, "Chinese Medicine in Contemporary China: Plurality and Synthesis" Duke University Press, 2002; ISBN 978-0-8223-2857-5
• Sivin, Nathan (1987). Traditional Medicine in Contemporary China. Ann Arbor: Center for Chinese Studies, University of Michigan. ISBN 978-0-89264-074-4Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Sivin, Nathan (1993). "Huang-ti nei-ching 黃帝內經". In Loewe, Michael (ed.). Early Chinese Texts: A Bibliographical Guide. Los Angeles and Berkeley: Institute for East Asian Studies, University of California, Berkeley. pp. 196–215. ISBN 978-1-55729-043-4Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Tierra, M., & Tierra, L. (1998) "Chinese Traditional Herbal Medicine Volume I Diagnosis and Treatment" Lotus Press. 1st edition. ISBN 978-0-914955-31-3
• Unschuld, Paul U. (1985). Medicine in China: A History of Ideas. Berkeley: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-05023-5Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Unschuld, Paul U. (2003). Huang Di Nei Jing Su Wen: Nature, Knowledge, Imagery in an Ancient Chinese Medical Text. Berkeley and Los Angeles: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-05023-5Template:Inconsistent citations {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)CS1 maint: postscript (link).
• Wiseman, N. & Ellis, A. (1996): "Fundamentals of Chinese medicine Paradigm Publications. ISBN 978-0-912111-44-5
• Xu, L. & Wang, W. (2002) "Chinese materia medica: combinations and applications" Donica Publishing Ltd. 1st edition. ISBN 978-1-901149-02-9

These sources add nothing to the reference section. If a source can be used in the article it should be used in the body of the article after a sentence. QuackGuru (talk) 23:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

POV? These are many of the basic textbooks on the subject. These are notable and essential sources. Are you saying they are not used in the article, or are you saying they are not reliable per NPOV? Please explain more what you are doing.Herbxue (talk) 06:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I removed promotional and dated sources that do not belong inside the reference section. There are over 200 sources in the body of the article. You have not explained how these sources are notable or essential. QuackGuru (talk) 07:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Promotional? I guarantee you have read exactly ZERO of these books. The onus is on you to justify undoing other people's good faith work, not on me to block you from removing decent edits. Many of these are basic textbooks that support the descriptive content in this article. Herbxue (talk) 07:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

These seem to be a pretty random mixture of scholarly historical works and in-the-field alt. med. stuff. At the very least this needs to go in a separate bibliographical section and be divided up according to type of work. But I also have to wonder about the merits of these works since they are not actually used as references in the article. Mangoe (talk) 15:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree. These are not references - that section is automatically populated by inline citations of references used to source specific text in the article. I've removed them. Dougweller (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Did you really check them? Because most of those I checked were actually used as references. And are now missing. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:21, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I was under the impression QG was attempting to remove all the article content associated with some of the books in this list, such as Deng and Kaptchuk, which are basic references on the subject. If they are not needed to support the current descriptive text as-is then no problem.Herbxue (talk) 20:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Paul Unschuld is outdated and POV? He's probably the most respected historian of Chinese medicine on the planet. A number of the other books are well-regarded textbooks within the field, and as such at least some belong here; being out of date isn't an issue because they're introductions to a traditional medicine. Agree we can trim the list, but deleting all is a terrible idea. --Middle 8 (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

What are you guys doing? Now we have a lot of sources saying something like: "Ross (1984), p. 6" or "Matuk (2006), p. 6". How the hell should the reader find the reference now that you deleted the entire reference list? --Mallexikon (talk) 04:23, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the refs for these "short citations" (WP:CITE) should certainly not be deleted. I've restored them and put them under the more appropriate "Bibilography" section . We will want to convert some of these into inline citations or "further reading", and prune some. That will take some time, and painstaking editing. Again, whatever we delete, we have to be sure we're not disrupting short citations. --Middle 8 (talk) 06:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

You have not shown what is so important for including numerous sources. The sources are being changed to inline citations where the reader can click on the source to verify the text. Unschuld is already in the body of the article. QuackGuru (talk) 01:33, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

(For the archives, this was cleared up below, under sub-subsection "Inline citations deleted". ) --Middle 8 (talk) 01:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Inline citations

See reference 6 in Traditional Chinese medicine#History. The reference must be improved with an ISBN number.

Traces of therapeutic activities in China date from the Shang dynasty (14th–11th centuries BCE).<ref name="Unschuld 1985">{{Cite book|last=Unschuld|first=Paul U.|title=Medicine in China: A History of Ideas|year=1985|publisher=University of California Press|location=Berkeley|isbn=978-0-520-05023-5}}</ref>

All the references in the body must be formatted correctly. I made this change for now. QuackGuru (talk) 18:32, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Since you have already created a proper ref, just fix it. There are lots of references to this source in the article. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Usually when I edit this article I get reverted. I am going to discuss first to see if that helps. QuackGuru (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Even non-controversial edits are controversial. Remember what happened at chiropractic. Is it the same editor? QuackGuru (talk) 22:16, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Reference 8: <ref>{{Cite book|last=Peng|first=Bangjiong 彭邦炯 (ed.)|title=Jiaguwen yixue ziliao: shiwen kaobian yu yanjiu ''甲骨文医学资料: 释文考辨与研究 ''|year=2008|publisher=Renmin weisheng chubanshe|location=Beijing|isbn=978-7-117-09270-8}}</ref> QuackGuru (talk) 19:43, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

QG the reason you get reverted so often is you edit at a frenetic pace - no working professional in the real world could possibly keep up with you, and so we are naturally suspicious. Nobody has edited at a rate close to yours since the infamous PPdd, who was banned from this article. Frankly, I am not yet convinced that you are not the same editor as PPdd. Maybe if I won the lottery and started smoking meth I could keep up with you, but until then I will be hyper critical of your edits. Herbxue (talk) 08:38, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

So, you appear to be saying you revert QG a lot not because his edits are not properly sourced or inaccurate, but because he works too fast. Is there a WP:GUIDELINE for that? --Roxy the dog (resonate) 09:36, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

There is one that I'm aware of having to do with seeking agreement before making major changes, and that would be WP:CONSENSUS. --Middle 8 (talk) 08:51, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I am saying that IMO QG makes edits that seem rash and overly bold, and that he sometimes seems to be on a mission to remove sourced material, in order to push a POV. Any revert I've done has been a good faith effort to preserve someone else's good work or to preserve good sources. Herbxue (talk) 09:35, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

In that case perhaps you should strike the bit where you say "QG the reason you get reverted so often is you edit at a frenetic pace - no working professional in the real world could possibly keep up with you, and so we are naturally suspicious." and the bit where you accuse him of being a sockpuppet, which would be the following ... "Nobody has edited at a rate close to yours since the infamous PPdd, who was banned from this article. Frankly, I am not yet convinced that you are not the same editor as PPdd." and the bit where you again accuse him of not editing properly because he works too fast and you would need illegal drugs to keep up with him, which is this bit ... "Maybe if I won the lottery and started smoking meth I could keep up with you, but until then I will be hyper critical of your edits."

Perhaps you should strike it all. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 10:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I think QG can speak for himself, my guess is he is less offended than you think, perhaps even a little amused. Herbxue (talk) 17:26, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Inline citations deleted

Some of the inline reference citations were deleted from the article and numerous references were dumped into the article gain. We do not need numerous references. The inline citations are enough. There is no need to have duplicate references in another section or numerous references. QuackGuru (talk) 20:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for converting short references (Smith, 19xx, p.x) to inline; I'm going to restore those changes now. I think you were reverted because you kept deleting the references -- which is a major change -- without consensus, and you didn't propose a way forward that editors could agree upon. If you'd say "I propose removing these, as long as we make sure that we convert them to inline citations where necessary", I don't think there would be much objection. But when you call them "outdated and POV sources", when many/most are not, sure there will be pushback.

Some changes are so bold that it's better to first propose them without going through a WP:BRD cycle, but even if you are going to go that way, we all need to understand each other. I now see what you mean when you said "All the references in the body must be formatted correctly. I made this change for now." But it wasn't clear at the time.

Please, let's mutually AGF and make sure everyone knows everyone else's intentions, and propose major changes here first, just as is done on any article prone to controversy. This article is going to degenerate if we don't slow down, AGF and really listen to each other. I can already see the "sides" lining up and it's unnecessary. Let's avoid drama. --Middle 8 (talk) 08:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Update: OK, I restored the inline citations, mainly by reverting back to QG's previous version. (Also restored the "drug discovery" section, mentioned elsewhere.) Diff from most recent edit by A1Candidate; Diff from most recent QG edit. QuackGuru had, in fact, diligently converted a bunch of short citations to inline. A1Candidate had reverted, understandably, because this fact wasn't clear. And I let QG's removal of the sources at the bottom stand, since a lot (most?) of them are now in the inline citations. Still, it's good that we have the list above, since we may end up using a few at some point. For instance, I'd like a good textbook in the ref section. Anyway, let's slow down a little and talk things over more. --Middle 8 (talk) 16:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

The one thing that got lost in the transition from short citations to inline citations is page numbers, FWIW. Anyone know an easy way of using different page numbers for the same inline ref? thanks, --Middle 8 (talk) 05:37, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

TEMPLATE:RP ? Alexbrn 06:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

That's the one, thanks! Along these lines, I'm trying to remember a template I've seen for adding a quote without adding it to an inline citation. I think it's similar to the one you mentioned, maybe Template:Note. Ring any bells? Happy ringing in the New Year bells from my time zone, btw. --Middle 8 (talk) 06:34, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Drug discoveries

I reinstated this section, because you can't lump artemisinin and huperzine A with traditional herbs... they're evolved from that and not used in a traditional way. I've explained in details why the sources used here are either MEDRS or don't fall into that category (e.g., when claiming that A. annua is a herb from the "heat clearing" category. That's a TCM term and doesn't have to backed up by MEDRS, just by a reliable TCM source). --Mallexikon (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

@QuackGuru: You deleted this section again without discussion or consensus. Please refrain from deleting reliably sourced material this way. Thanks. --Mallexikon (talk) 01:26, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I did discuss it. QuackGuru (talk) 01:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

No you didn't. This diff you presented just shows how you clearly didn't listen to what I explained. --Mallexikon (talk) 05:05, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I restored it. It appears well-sourced, and likewise appears that more editors here want it than not. --Middle 8 (talk) 16:09, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

There is a SYN violation. See Talk:Traditional Chinese medicine#WP:MEDRS violations again. QuackGuru (talk) 01:15, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

See Revision as of 10:42, 26 December 2013. This was explained a little while ago that there are problems with the text. Please move on. QuackGuru (talk) 03:38, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Traditional Chinese medicine minerals

Arsenic

Asbestos

Lead

Mercury

Cinnabar

Calomel

Comments? QuackGuru (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

What do you propose? I am aware that heavy-metal contamination is a risk with some prepared Chinese medicines, and we should certainly mention this. We should weight the issue properly; the use of certain "traditional minerals" and other toxic chemicals (e.g. aristolochic acid)is intentionally avoided by more responsible manufacturers. --Middle 8 (talk) 08:48, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

I propose summarising the refs. I do not have a specific proposal. For aristolochic acid, do you have a source. QuackGuru (talk) 18:33, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

1. "... Even more elusive is the basis of some of the key traditional Eastern medical concepts such as the circulation of qi, the meridian system, and the five phases theory, which are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information but continue to play an important role in the evaluation of patients and the formulation of treatment in acupuncture." As seen at: NIH Consensus Development Program (3–5 November 1997). "Acupuncture – Consensus Development Conference Statement". National Institutes of Health. Retrieved 2012-02-28.

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