Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 13:19, 16 June 2006

Archives
March 10, 2006 - May 1, 2006 May 1, 2006 - May 25, 2006 May 26, 2006 -

NOTE: Please add what you want to discuss with me in the bottom of the page, if it is not a part of an already on-going discussion. And of course, sign it using 4 "~" to make it easier for me to reach you and respond.

Kosovo/Racak

I inserted "allegedly" into your edits of the Kosovo page regarding Racak. Categorically stating that it was a deliberate massacre basically means that you dispute or ignore a good deal of what's being discussed on the dedicated Racak incident page without proper discussion. As your sources don't add any new findings, I see no justification for this. Poxy 21:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Again: you are basically invalidating half of the (rather elaborate) Racak incident page simply by throwing in two (fairly dated and not particularly detailed) articles for reference, none of which add anything new. As a compromise to maintain NPOV, I suggest to replace "allegedly" with something to the effect of "generally regarded as", "widely claimed to be". Or you may want to update the Racak incident page accordingly and explain why the "other point of view" is debunked, so that things are consistent at least. Poxy 22:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

"In the original article on Racak incident it clearly states "Outside Yugoslavia, the deaths were widely blamed on the actions of the Yugoslav security forces, which were accused of having committed a deliberate massacre." . Where is the inconsistency with what I said and provided sources for?"

C'mon. The phrases "were widely blamed", "were accused of" are quite different in style and meaning from a definite verdict stating "were executed by", as should be obvious to anyone with basic command of the English language. If you believe such cautionary language is uncalled for because, as you claim, everything has been settled and proven anyway, then go ahead and change the Racak incident page accordingly (note that that page does not state only Yugoslav sources for the "other POV"). But then, you'd want to provide a comprehensive and recent source that takes all the mentioned issues into account and provides new insight. Right now, you selectively took two non-recent random sources (the content of which has been incorporated in the dedicated page) and use that to simply blank out other things on that page that do not conform to your preferred POV. I call that bad form. Poxy 22:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

How recent do you want sources to be? The investigation has taken place when the sources were written. This investigation is not on top news today, because it is finished. With my limited knowledge of English I can distinguish between the meaning of the phrases you mentioned, but the one I stated fits the results of the independent investigations, and OSCE findings in the terrain. The head of that OSCE mission himself called it as such, let alone the rest who clearly noticed that shots were fired from a close distanc, and the killed ones were civillians. I select sources, indeed, because I try to not use Albanian or Yugoslav sources. That is what Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources is about, and what I attempt to achieve with my edits in Wikiepedia. ilir_pz 23:19, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore using the phrases you proposed just attempts to put cover on the facts on the ground, and are characterized as weasel words, to create an illusion that they are more neutral, but in fact serve a different purposeilir_pz 23:26, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

IF

anyone wonders why I disregard their sources of information, refer to this Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources. I strictly follow this, when doing that. ilir_pz 08:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Your attempt didn't go unnoticed

Interesting Ilir....really interesting, I knew you'd do it. 22:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

do what? ilir_pz 22:12, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Reply

(regarding your post about my explaination on the Montenegrin issue).

That's the main reason why many Serbs in Montenegro have voted FOR independence - the Montenegrin authorities said that they will draft a Constitution WHEN Montenegro becomes independent - a good chance for the Serbs to become a constituent nation. However - this is an issue: most Montenegrins do not want to constitutionalize Montenegrins and Serbs as two independent nations in Montenegro. ANd for the Serb side - every Serbian politician must get 36,000 votes to get into the government - while every Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosniak/Moslem and Albanian needs 12,000 - that's that Constitutionality issue (no wonder the government is slightly anti-Serbian nowdays). Get the problem now?

P. S. Hey, does this mean that you will no longer read it up? ;( --HolyRomanEmperor 22:05, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I read your stuff up. Don't worry. I did not erase the content.Sorry, I had to archive, my talk page got too long, and kept complaining. :). The reason I did that now was because date changed now in the region I am in :). I understand it a bit better now...the constitutional stuff. Gotta go now, g'night. Talk soon.ilir_pz 22:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

---

Comparison with Bosnia and Herzegovina and Herzeg-Bosnia lies simply in the fact that both of the states' peoples were opressed - the fullscale state infrastructure (even on a more organized basis than on Kosovo) was created and the states even achieved some recognition in the world, after they declared indpendence. However, they were not independent, because BiH didn't recognize them, nor did they achieve international recognition. Understand me now? --HolyRomanEmperor 22:16, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I think comparing Kosovo and BiH is a wrong thing to do. Kosovo's war and BiH war were different in nature, nations involved, reasons, results, origin..So not a good comparison. Kosovo existed far a long time before any such self-declared-and-gained-during-a-bloody-war republics you are mentioning. ilir_pz 22:31, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I generally agree - however, neither did Kosovo exist as a Republic. You see, there was this big issue in 1944 - the issue of Serbs in Croatia and Albanians in Serbia. Autonomy - or full constitutionality. At the end, it was decided that territorial political autonomy is to be given to the Serbian Albanians due to the fact that they live mostly in the plains of Kosovo, Metohija and the Presevo valley. While the Serbs of Croatia - living virtually all around it, and demanding a total of three autonomous regions if autonomy was to be decided - were given equal rights and Croatia made a Serbian state as much as Croatian. Now, claiming that it's unconnective is slightly insultive to all those Partisans that conveined for months just to solve this issue. --HolyRomanEmperor 10:53, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Comparing the existance of Kosovo with existence of several self-proclaimed republics in BiH is also a very bad mistake. Kosovo was a constitutive element of the Federation of Yug, without the consent of which no Federal-level laws could be passed. Remember? ilir_pz 19:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Also - in BiH - nations involved? Orthodox Christian (and perhaps some Moslem) Serbs on one side and Islamic Bosniaks on the other. Kosovo: Orthodox Christian and some Moslem Serbs on one side and Islamic Albanians on the other. Origin? Mutual as well - great demographic trends caused by the Ottoman breaches. There are other (although not as important) similarities as well. Also, all the differences make no difference. The point is that the Bosnian Serbs' declaration of independence was only partially accepted, nor did Bosnia and Herzegovina approve the seccession. It is to my opinion that the situation with Kosovo is even less evident - with no declaration of independence nor recognition is present. --HolyRomanEmperor 10:59, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

War in Kosovo had no religious color. KLA did not fight Serbian police and military because they were Orthodox or whatever, but because they were doing what they were doing. ilir_pz 19:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Woah, I just noticed your post on my talk page for the 1st time. :D

Why not just expand the other sections? I told you that I will shorten it up. Give this to work some time. I have another plan in store - if this doesn't work/you don't agree with it - let me know I'll pull off Plan B. ;)

Jesi li procitao sav tekst o Crnoj Gori? Cudi me sto nemas nista za dodati/pitati. Evo, ja imam da dodam nesto sto propustih u periodu pocetka raspada Jugoslavije. 1993. godine je promijenjena zastava Republike Crne Gore iz 1992. Kako bi se razlikovala od republicke zastave Srbije, plava boja u medji trobojke je znatno posvijetljena - no klasicno crveno-plavo-bijelo je nastavilo da bude u upotrebi. Do 1993 godine se i Srpskohrvatski jezik raspao - Crna Gora je usvojila Srpski jezik ijekavskog izgovora za novi. 1992 godine je i ukinut crnogorski grb - jer postoji srbijansko-crnogorski jugoslovenski zajednicki, a i predstavljao je komunisticka brda. Moram kritikovati referendum za ocuvanje Jugoslavije s Srbijom iz '92. Jedva da je dvije trecina birackoga tijela izislo - a i glasanje je bilo marginalno na etnickoj osnovi. Mnogi Hrvati, dobar dio Muslimana i mnogi Albanci (kao i neki pro-independisti Crnogorci) su bojkovali referendum zbog brojnih sukoba sada vec bivse Jugoslavije. Naravno, skoro 95% stanovnistva je glasalo da odrzi Jugoslaviju s Srbijom - i da je jos birackoga tijela izislo, ne bi se rezultat promijenio. Nacionalnosti su isto samo dijelomicno bojkotovali - a ne kompletni Nacionalni Bojkot kao kod Srba u Hrvatskoj, Bosanskih Srba i Kosovskih Albanaca - koji bi oznacio da je referendum usmjeren protiv brojnih nacija. Volio bih da je malo manje glasanje bilo na etnickoj osnovi i da je vise birackoga tijela izislo. I naravno, volio bih da nije bilo izuzetnog kampanovanja od strane crnogorskih i njima savjeznickih (uglavnom srbijanskih) politicara koji su bili spremni da uzmu sve stvari u svoje ruke, samo kako bi referendum uspio i Jugoslavija opstala u Crnoj Gori i Srbiji. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:30, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Now this info is new to me. Again (for who knows which time) I would need some sources, to refer to, as if they are facts, I would like to know more about them. ilir_pz 19:24, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

(nastavak...)

Republika Crna Gora (u SRJ-u) je pocela procese razgranicenja s Hrvatskom 1996. godine, kada je privremeno rijesen teritorijalni spor oko Prevlake - malog hrvatskog teritorija koji je bio jugoslovenska narodna baza. 1997. godine Hrvatska anektira UN Protektorat Istocne Slavonije, Baranje i Zapadnoga Srijema - koji je mirno integrisan u Hrvatsku 1998. godine. Ovim umiru sve pretenzije crnogorskoga politickog vodjstva o mogucem sirenju Savezne Republike Jugoslavije. Kao sto nije ni smrt poslijednjeg kraja srpske civilizacije u Hrvatskoj veoma dobro prihvacena u Crnoj Gori, tako nije ni konacni ustav Republike Bosne i Hercegovine iz iste '98, koji je zaveo centralizam, uveo Hrvate i Bosnjake u Republiku Srpsku (Srbi su vec odavno bili u Federaciji Bosne i Hercegovine) i srusio bilo kakvu branu izmedju Federacije i Srpstva u BiH. --HolyRomanEmperor 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Te '98 je i ukinut Srpski Dinar u Bosni i Hercegovini - ni to se nije svidjelo. Srpski dinar je bio stvoren 1992 godine. (s Srpskom Republikom) da zamijeni Jugoslovenski dinar - umjesto novoga Bosanskog dinara. U Oktobru 1993 suocio se s velikom inflacijom od 1,000,000:1 - sto je dovelo krahu srpske ekonomije u nekadasnjoj Bosni i Hercegovini. U Januaru 1994 postalo 1,000,000,000:1 (od prosle vrijednosti) - kada se sve steglo oko Srba. Kada su poceli gubiti rat, usvojili su Novi Dinar - paralelan s jakom Njemackom markom, radije nego s bezvrijednim Jugoslovenskim dinarom (i tako sve do ukidanja 1998 i uvodjenja BiHovih Konvertibilnih maraka). U Srpskoj Krajini je postojala slicna situacija - od 1991-1992 je koristen Jugoslovenski dinar. Zamijenio ga je Reformisani Dinar u Julu 1992 godine, koji se 1. Oktobra 1993 suocio s 1,000,000:1 inflacijom; zamijenio ga je Oktobarski dinar, a u Januaru 1994 godine, kada izbi 1,000,000,000:1 inflacija - doveden je Dinar iz 1994. Ubrzo je i on propao, kao i srpska krajisna ekonomija - pa je Hrvatska kuna koristena sve do izgnanka 1995 godine. Vlada u egzilu je privhatila Jugoslovenski dinar (sve do 2003, kada je stvoren Srpski dinar). Republika Crna Gora je koristila Jugoslovenski dinar, ali se suocila s mnogim inlfacijama zbog mnogih stvari (pretjerani drzavni troskovi, sankcije, kriminal,...) od 1,000,000:1 1993 godine i 1,000,000,000:1 1994 godine - sto se nadovezalo na 10:1 iz 1992. i 1:10,000 iz 1990. godine. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:24, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

HRE asht Asterion

Jam mëse 99% asht i njojti person--Hipi Zhdripi 00:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, can you ask this guy to leave me alone? All this because I removed his personal attacks in his userpage, which for some obscure reason he does not think were attacks and started sermoning me on the UN (!?!) Maybe I should ask User:Inshanee to see what he thinks... E Asterion 00:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

What pissed me off was that it was unsigned and gave the impression you were happy to keep things protected with no discussion, not that you did not credit me or else (I request many page protections expecting nothing). I just hope you will prove me wrong. I could not even bother to check the page history though I suspected it would be you. If you were so happy with it, why did you not simply request it yourself instead carry on with the edit war? (Remember, two would only edit-war when both of them want to). I am sorry but it seems you only tap-well-done-people-on-the-back when things go your way. As ChrisO said somewhere else, the problem seems to be about people defending uncivil attitudes because they are on the right side, and I am about Ferick and Hipi too. Excuse me if I find very hard to assume good faith here. I just needed to get this off my chest. E Asterion 07:08, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It was unsigned? I just checked it, for some reason sometimes Misplaced Pages puts the date only, not my fault. I always sign, and verify that I did. I am happy to keep things protected without discussion? Am I not the one that discusses the most? check my contributions please, and then speculate. Why I did not ask for protection myself? Because I believe that people can come to their senses, sooner or later. Seems like I was wrong, as with the flood of sockpuppets and meatpuppets, I could not face them alone. Now that other statement that I "only tap-well-done-people-on-the-back" when things go my way, that is some offense. I did not agree fully with you on your previous edits, but I thought it was a compromise and greeted you on that. You are far from doing things my way, and I do not expect you to. Ferick has some good points, but he is a bit rushy, and it is not up to me to change him. Hipi brings good sources, but lacks English language skills. I give credits for what they do well, not when they rush. When they rush, I give them advise to slow down, as I did several times and you know. It is good you have this off your chest. ilir_pz 11:03, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I apologise for the misunderstanding on the signature bit. I should have assumed good faith on this. I stand for my comments on Ferick and Hipi. Whatever disagreements they may have, the whole "education" thing brought out by Ferick was utterly deplorable, together with Hipi's racist remarks on Roma and Serbian people (and this has nothing to do with lack of language skills). As I said, edit wars only happen when people want them to happen. Frankly, you also continued with the resolution 1244 controversy and actually started rushing things before the vote on the Montenegrin referendum was not even over. I am very annoyed with the whole situation and this is driving sensible people off the article. Regards, E Asterion 12:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I continued with 1244 Resolution controversy? Oh well, the whole resolution is a mess, but still what I said was what the resolution exactly quotes. I do not see where my mistake is there. If you are annoyed by the situation, that does not give you the right to accuse me for that, as I (for the difference) am trying to give explanation to people, to hope that they stop this annoyance they are creating with their nationalist NPOV. ilir_pz 12:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Muzika

M'fal Ilir se nuk e kom pare komentin tend ne bio faqen time. Metallica me pelqen shume, por Dream Theater edhe me shume. Besoj se e ki lexu faqen time ne lidhje me ta. Thanx per komentin, Aeternus 18:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Ska problem Petrit. Po pashe qe e kishe update sajtin. Shume mire. Edhe une ne moshen tende e kam pelqy Metallica, Dream Theatre, Rage against the machine, Nirvana etj. Tash pleqeria e jam zbute pak, po perseri i ndegjoj ato se jane legjenda. Kishe shku edhe ne Irlande te vendi ku U2 kishin be incizimet e para a? shume mire. Flasim.ilir_pz 19:10, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Districts in Kosovo

Nëse e shikon Kodin Postal do të shohës që ato në faktë janë të ndara ashtu në qarqe (Ka edhe prova tjera por unë ende nuk jam ra në to). Administrata dhe gjithë sistemi administrativ Kosovarë është i ndarë sipas këtij principi. Mirpo sipas kartës Evropiane, komunat kanë të drejtë të vendosin për lidhje komunale, kjo edhe e ka ngadalsuar procesin në terren. Mirëpo si do që të jetë infrastruktura është e pregatitur dhe nuk ma merrë mendja se ndonjëra komunë ka të holla të hudhë poshtë, për ndryshimin e infrastruktures.--Hipi Zhdripi 18:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

E di Hipi, te kuptoj plotesisht. Ka gjithe ato pengesa nga lloj-lloj ligjesh ne fuqi ne Kosove, qe po e pengojne zhvillimin ne terren. Qe gjen diku dokumente, na i sjell, ose rregulloje permes tyre Municipalities of Kosovo. ilir_pz 18:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Please don't vandalise articles. You and I both know what the KLA was and what they did. -- serbiana - talk 23:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

you are not welcome in my talk page. ilir_pz 23:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Rakia

Why are you accusing C-c-c-c, Boris, Estavisti and I of being the same person? All four of us are currently living in different locations, and different continents. Estavisti has more edits than Boris as well... Boris really worked hard on that sockpuppet! Anyhow, feel free to add me on msn, so we can have a chat. (ivanm16@gmail.com) -- Krytan talk 01:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I was impressed by the speed of coordination of reverting article in KLA article. Of course one would be suspicious. Having an msn account does not make me suspect less. I think discussing here is enough, do not need further discussions in msn. ilir_pz 10:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ja arriten qëllimit

Ja arritën qëllimit që me hekë atë që kamë prezentuar në pjesën fillestare të fletës së diskutimit. Nejse, ma merrë mendja se e ka kryer funksionin por me siguri që shpejtë kam me prezentu diçka të ngjajshme.

False alarms

Hi,

I'm sure that Bormalagurski has some sock-puppets, but Krytan is definitly not one of them. Estavisti is possible not one of his sock-puppets either. These people have quite a different interest appart from having common affection for extremely biased pro-serbian editing.

It is obvious that these people coordinate their activities, but they are not the same person.

So, next time You decide to report him for sock-puppeting, beter be sure, or you might end up like a sheppard that cried "wolf".

Bormalagurski has reputation so bad, that only think that helps him are accusations against him proven false ;). So, let's not do that.

Regards, Ante Perkovic 08:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you see the description of my suspicion? I also suspected meatpuppetry, not only sockpuppetry. The speed of reverting, and coordination, that could make anyone suspect. ilir_pz 10:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to tell me about meetpuppetry, I've seen plenty of it in last 2 or 3 weeks. Anti-croatian propaganda has risen 10-fold since the begginig of May. I believe Boris is behind at least some of those incidents. But, how do You prove these things? Meet puppetry is, by definition, impossible to prove by various IP checks. --Ante Perkovic 10:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am sure you are familiar with the same type of actions. The case I described showed a perfect example of meat-puppetry, for example. No need to check IP's here. The coordination, and the amount of text reverted is a reason enough to suspect that. Come on, they edited within less than 1 minute. ilir_pz 11:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, You wrote Just check when suspected sockpuppets User:Krytan and User:Estavisti "started" editing.. So, I don't see You mentioned meat puppetry, only sock'-puppetry

Listen, I'm on your side, and that is why I'm telling You to slow down and not to make complaints that You can not prove. I think we better examine the rules of wiki and precisely formulate which rules they broke. I'm refusing to believe that this organised POV campaign can go unpunished for much longer. --Ante Perkovic 12:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I understand your point, Ante. Yes, something should be done for this POV campaign, which I am sure some organize through MSN messenger or something. Let me know if you notice something suspicious as well, and I can help you prepare a report for the admins.ilir_pz 14:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You can't accuse me for anything, I have been law-abiding, I'm sorry that you can't just accept that. I have a clean record. I have never been blocked. Ever. Estavisti is also a good law-abiding contributer, who has more edits than Boris. Boris, sure he has a history, but you keep accusing him for his POV. I can accuse you of that too. Why the hell do you take out the point that I put in the Kosovo article, when I said that the Serbian (not Serbia-Montenegro) constitution defines Kosovo as an autonomous province in Serbia? -- Krytan talk 21:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You know very well the reason why I suspected you. Check my report. You either are the sockpuppet or meatpuppet i.e. were told by MSN to change it at that exact second when the other was almost crossing the 3RR rule. Anyone would be suspicious. If not sockpuppet, your reverting coordination with the other user is admirable...and "patriotic".ilir_pz 22:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Coordination? Grow up. I have those articles in my watch list. The moment it is edited I can see it. You in fact might be Hipi's meatpuppet. Or is he your meatpuppet? -- Krytan talk 23:16, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

whatever. ilir_pz 23:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Loss of words, Ilir? -- Krytan talk 23:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Skanderbeg heroism

Come on Ilir, you cant belive it yourself that a warlord from the medevial age is a hero? Thank God we stop this glorification of Swedish "heros" and "kings" during the 1950's. You should too. Litany 17:00, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

If you read a bit about his wars and contribution, you would appreciate him, too, as he stopped the influx of Ottoman empire in the rest of Europe, but not leting Ottomans cross the Adriatic Sea to Italy. Swedish still glorify heroes, and are proud of their Viking ancestry. Why does it irritate you that I consider Scanderbeg a hero? It's proven in many years, that he indeed deserves such a title. History usually reveals fake heroes, for him none could find one thing against calling him a hero. Regards, ilir_pz 20:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I know enough about Skanderbeg. He is not a hero.

If you did know anything about Swedish history or how our schools works you would know that we are not praising any "heroes". The days of glorification for old kings is over. In school they are very strict about that. We are thought from the very start to be open minded for a start. It is also very important, no matter where that we are teached that thousands of people died every year during the centuries because of our "great heroes". Vikings were traders and extraordinary sailers from Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Some of them did commit crimes like rape, murder and loothing, just like anybody else in that era. Everybody is aware of that and no one is proud of that behaviour. End of story.

A warlord like Skanderbeg is not better then another, like Arkan for an example. They only care about their on treasure and the importance in getting more treasures. It dosent matter if he was living in the 15th century or now in present time. Those kind of peoples minds are still incredible greedy. Why would Skanderbeg be any differant then? The sources from the mediveal age is not the best you know.

And I hardly doubt that Skanderbeg felt nationalism or patriotism for all Albanians or Albania. The nationalism we know today was born during the 19th centruy. Thats why you praise him today, and is there not alot of other Albanian "heroes"?

With respect, Litany 19:01, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

whatever Litany. I was not saying he is a Swedish Hero, Scanderbeg was (is) considered a hero for Albanians, period. No need for glorifying his deeds, historians from all around the world have done that enough. If you claim that Vikings are not important and not mentioned in Scandinavia, how come they are almost in every food product almost, let alone other things in the everyday life. No need to deny that. Comparing Scanderbeg to Arkan? now that is some offense. I am not sure ever that Scanderbeg had gone with his army to burn down neighbouring countries nations. Stop making such ridiculous comparison. There are many respectful Albanian heroes. Do you want me to mention them to you? With respect, too. ilir_pz 19:29, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Haha dont you see? You are a victim. I could compare Skanderbeg to anybody at his time or present. But he is holy for you so you could never see or would be able to listen to anybody who has another opinion then you. I think you are very tragic who must talk about the "heroic" KLA. Dont you see how serbs glorify the chetnkiks? What comes around, goes around. Stop glorify murderers and some old geezer who have been dead for 500 years. I think/belive Albanians has so much better "heroes" to offer then some warlords.

Like I said, most vikings were farmers and traders. Only a few was warriors under some warlord "kings" who would go on pillage trips. Alot of vikings acctually colonizied big parts of northern Europe, from Irland to Russia, and even Iceland and Greenland. You know the vikings explored America 500 years before Columbus.

Sorry but I dont know what you talk about with the food? There is some viking traditions in still in it today. It is nothing wrong to be proud of someones heritage, culture and country. Stop only your glorification. That can only bring harm. Gå i frid Litany

I really do not understand your points. Try to resemble them in rather more coordinated way, please. Did I say there is anything wrong with you being proud of your heritage, country, culture? No. Why does it irritate you when I do so? Scanderbeg is not holy, he is just a hero, to me, and to the Albanian nation, wherever they are located. Again, you compare Scanderbeg's deeds with chetniks :)))) very bad combination, again. Scanderbeg was not a warlord, you are mistaken again. Oh and KLA, yes, their war was heroic indeed. Fighting such a machinery with barely hand-held weapons, that cannot be described in other words than heroism. what do you mean with the sentence "you are very tragic who must talk about heroic KLA", your statement does not make sense. You do not give a picture of a neutral wikipedian at all with your comments, that are clearly everything but of good intentions about Albanians. They say relationships change the (political) opinion of people, they destroyed world leaders :)) seems like that is having a bad effect on you as well, i.e. you are not being able to be neutral, due to the (mis)information you are being fed with. Regards, ilir_pz 16:25, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

But how could you know all that about Skanderneg? I can clearly notice you have not been teached a NPOV history in school otherwise you would know just not only swallow all the "truth" about your heroes. This is not only a problem for you, but for alot of people around the world. Everything is one sided.

Just because I not agree with you dosent make me less neutral in this matter. I will never go along with that KLA is heroic, nor NATO, nor Chetniks or any other group that is spitting at the Geneve convention. I think it is showing really well who this has effected most badly on. Take care Litany 18:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello

How's it been? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:27, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Fine thanks, HRE. Pretty normal, in Misplaced Pages at least, sockpuppets, meatpuppets, multiplying like crazy. Apart from that, taking a time off, resting after many months of stress with my thesis. How are you? ilir_pz 20:19, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

On a wikibreak, finishing my work & some other things (history reviews, don't ask...). I was wondering did you get the time to read up my info (o Crnoj Gori i dr.)? --HolyRomanEmperor 08:59, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Controlling Serb Falsehoods

Here is some info that may help you to counter Serb falsehoods in the Kosovo talk page. I am on the mission to bust all their myths:)

As I have said before, take with a grain of salt everything written by a Serb about Albanians. They will stop at nothing in their attempt to spread falsehoods. Now, ladies and gentleman, here is something about Serbia that a Serb would do anything to prevent you from knowing. This information is from a Serbian source: Serbian Education and Labor Ministry!

Poverty still rife in Serbia “President of the Free Workers Union, Dragoljub Stosic, said that Albania was once the regional poster child for poverty, but that because of the high unemployment rate and the increased amount of corruption, Serbia has now taken over the role. “We are, unfortunately, one of the countries for which days such as this are being recognized.” Stosic said yesterday, which marked the International Day for the Fight Against Poverty. “We are on the same level as Rwanda and similar countries, though I would not compare them with us because, there are increasingly fewer and fewer nations with whom we can compare ourselves. We cannot offer help today, we can only ask for charity.” Stosic said.”

Half of Serbia Illiterate “According to statistics from the Education Ministry, nearly 50 percent of Serbian citizens never finished elementary schooling. This means that over 3 million people in Serbia are considered illiterate by all international and European standards. “

I report, you decide.Ferick 18:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Interesting articles you found, Ferick. Thanks for sharing them with me. Good luck with your mission. I've been trying to fight the falsehoods eversince I "came" to Misplaced Pages. The time when Serbian regime propaganda convinced the world that Albanians should be under their control is a past one. Albanians suffered enough from that propaganda, filled with lies, and speculations, to just justify the classical oppression, as the last (Milosevic) war showed. I will try to supply you with some articles that I find. Showing the truth is a must, and the main purpose of Misplaced Pages. Even the old documents which de-jure still attempt to make Kosovo seem in any kind of relation with inexistant states are shortlived. By the end of this year, things will be much clearer. Can't wait. ilir_pz 20:25, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I guess what we lack in reading and writing skills we make up in the sciences.

A friendly advice, I think you should instead invest more in increasing the awareness on Human Rights, and reducing the ever-increasing nationalistic energy in Serbia, with Radicals gaining in influence. You do not need those successful scientists, if your leaders are fed from such extreme ultra-nationalistic parties. ilir_pz 23:58, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Assuming that Kosovo is in Serbia, (which it is by the way), I could actually believe that 3 million illiterate rate, if a good amount was in Kosovo. Also, I wasn't aware blogs were "credible" sources, even dear Ilir said so ;) -- Krytan talk 21:33, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I would assume that you are patriotic enough to trust information coming form your countries Ministries. No?

Oh, forgot to mention it: Serbian Ministries don't have a way of collection information in Kosovo. Sorry to ruin your day, but these stats are from Serbia only. Another Serb myth busted! Ferick 04:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You do not sound any different from the person I suspected you of being the sockpuppet of. The same irony, the same type of argument. As far as the source is concerned, it seems like b92 reported that. ilir_pz 22:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, this would be pathetic enough if you were from a rich country and insulting Serbia about its economic state. However, you are Albanian and, true to form, the pathetic, frustrated, powerless, Schadenfreude that shines through everything you write relating to Serbia is not absent here. I've been to Albania, the country where shopkeepers sit in the dark in the evening and only switch on the generator when customers come in to save money. Not because there's a power cut (though those are frequent), but because the electricity grid hasn't reached their part of the country. The European country (shocking, isn't it?) where people herd their cattle down the A-roads. So I suggest you focus your energies and intelligence (you must have had some to get that MSc.) on improving your own country instead of lashing out at a more successful one. Now you're going to say that this is a personal attack, unprovoked, blah blah blah, you're such a poor victim. You've been provoking all of us with your crap, what did you expect? --estavisti 23:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Refrain from personal attacks, full of irony, and provocation. I have simply stated my suspicion, which should not irritate you if you have nothing to do with it. I will address your personal attack to some administrator. Hope that serves a good lesson to you. Thanks for dropping by, ilir_pz 23:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I am an Albanian from Kosova, I do not understand why do you give me this information on Albania, when the whole dispute we got involved in was related to KLA?! Your irony gives me more reason to suspect you still, as you do not differ from Krytan or the other one. The same irony, the same "facts", the same attacks. And yes, personal attacks are considered calling someone the pathetic, frustrated, powerless,, a poor victim, etc. Re-consider your behaviour, could be harmful to your further editing. ilir_pz 23:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about in your latest comment on my talk page? Yet again? I only made one personal attack on you, maybe you have me confused with someone else?--estavisti 01:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, again, the same one, towards me. ilir_pz 01:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Do any of you care to address the subjects addressed in those articles? So what if Albania is poor? Nobody is denying that. What we are saying is that Serbia may be in a worst shape. The articles still stand. I guess you accept the articles as they are?Ferick 04:02, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I know you hate me, and I know you think the feeling is mutual, but, and also...! -- serbiana - talk 04:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't hate you, I don't want to talk to you. Out of my talk page. ilir_pz 08:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Farewell

Ilir, I'm leaving Misplaced Pages. I know you don't want to talk to me, but even though you are mad at me, I don't think you're a bad person, only poisoned by the regime you've come to trust. I hope one day you will find it in your heart to forgive me for the trouble I've caused you, if not, so be it. I hope one day you will see that every politician is a liar, and there is no perfect government, no "one side" to a story, no "one cause" to a war, and no "one solution" to a problem. Eventually, Kosovo made us drift apart, a province I've never been to, nor aspire to visit. If you and your people get your "independence", I hope that you'll understand that you didn't earn it by fair means, but by means of terror, hate and with great help from thre CIA. Just like Republika Srpska, Kosovo has a lot of blood on it's hands, and you will have to live with that for the rest of your life. But it's your life, and not mine. Farewell. -- serbiana - talk 00:33, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Kraja

I apologize if I deleted a legitimate article; I was following the trail of vandalism on Tuzi, (which placed Tuzi in Malësi e Madhe district) so I thought that article was a hoax as well. Still, it is certainly not a "town and municipality" but a small village, and it contains various nonsenses about its "communes of Tivat, Bar and Ulqin", and four (!) districts. Could you at least reduce the "province" to its real size? Thanks. Duja 10:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Not sure I understood your point, Duja. I am not familiar with the province you mention. It is certainly not in the district you mention, which is in Albania. Let me know if I can help clarify more. ilir_pz 10:11, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Let's continue the discussion on Talk:Kraja. Duja 10:16, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Shqip

tung ilir. Kemi një problem me një serb që po shton një link në artikullin për shkrimtarin I.K. ( nuk po e shkruaj emrin e tër për shkak se tani ata për inat shkojn kundërshtojn editimet tona. Link të qon tek një faqe e propagandisteve maqedon, dhe edhe intervista dhe edhe personi i intervistuar janë të konstruara. Shko dhe shiko se qka po ndodh, dhe treoj ati vandalit se po i dhunon rregullat e Misplaced Pages. Shumë përshendetje.

Hey,...

if you don't want to talk to me - please just say so. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

why would that be? :) There's been too much traffic in my page these days, and I might have not noticed any question you made. Sorry for that. I will check it again. How are you by the way? back from the break? Best, ilir_pz 23:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Het gaat goed

Hi Ilir, unfortunately I cannot greet you in your own language, as you did to me. Thank you very much, and it is nice to hear you like my country. I have never visited the eastern part of Europe myself, but maybe I will in the future.

I also would like to ask some lenience from you in the debate on the Kosovo talk page. I understand that you sometimes get tired of all the people trying to push their views. In the case of Osli, however, I agree with him that the first paragraph could be much better and simpeler (I was also the one who changed the wording from "de jure" to "in principle"). I hope my last idea (see the Kosovo talk page) is something you can live with. If not, then I think Osli will also not give in and there will be no other alternative then to seek a third opinion, which could end up with a totally different version of the introduction. Please do not see this as a personal attack, I am just trying to find a consensus here so we can lift the editing block on the article. Best regards, Cpt. Morgan 21:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ilir, no it is just that here on wikipedia and in general on the internet, sometimes the nuances of what is typed get lost, also because we are both non-native english speakers. So sometimes words get interpreted differently than they were meant to be, especially in a heated debate. I just wanted to assure you that my only interest is in getting the dispute solved. I hope putting it up on the third opinion page will bring us some independent opinions on the matter. Best regards, Cpt. Morgan 11:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm not - my posts are at the top of this page. I bring good news from Montenegro - (finally) democratic ellections will come this year. Milo Djukanovich's Bloc (for Independence/Liberal/European Montenegro) has finally collapsed (I thought that they would've died out before the referendum) and the new president/premier of Montenegro will probably be from the (most) democratic party - SDP (Serbian Democratic Party). The only thing left is to file charges and dispatch Milo and his guys over to Hague (or better, sentence them here). --HolyRomanEmperor 08:57, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Is that a good news? I thought Djukanovic had great support and had brought the independence for Montenegro. How come his bloc is collapsing? can you share the link where you got that info? SDP the most democratic party? I am not sure I understood this HRE. You do not seem to be the HRE who supported the independence of Montenegro. :) ilir_pz 09:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

tung Ilir!

nuk isha një kohë të gjatë në en:wiki. po e shoh që paskan vazhduar me të njëjtat metoda kundër teje. por ti thjesht injoroi sa të mundesh. ai njëri përdorues, i cili kinse dëshiron të ikë nga en:wiki është një përdorues ultranacionalist, jam duke e përcjellur ne wikin e gjuhës së tij amtare. por edhe atje nuk ia mbajnë shumë anën, se edhe ata si duket ngadalë kanë filluar të lodhen nga gënjeshtrat e veta. ky dëshiron të bëjë këtu një admin që i përkrah idetë i tij e të tjerëve si ai. në wikin e gjuhës së tij shpesh e ka diskutuar, por tash për fat të keq po merren mesh me mesingjer si duket, e nuk e di se kënd do ta propozojnë. e hoqa atë lidhjen e jashtme, që ishte te ai shkrimtari, se e pash që një përdorues tjetër të kishte treguar për këtë problem. më trego nëse mundem të të ndihmoj në ndonjë mënyrë, sa të kem mundësi do ta bëjë këtë. por mos u hidhëro nëse kohë pas kohe nuk jam aktive dhe nuk të përgjigjem menjëhere. me të vërtetë në këto javët e fundit dhe në të ardhmet po kam shumë tepër për të mësuar, provime shumë të mëdha. megjithatë shumë suksese ty si në wiki ashtu edhe në (më duket kështu më ke thënë) studimet pasuniversitare. dëgjohemi pra, --Mig11 09:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)--Mig11 09:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Well - After DOS finally destroyed Milosevic's regime in 1999 and 2000, what happenned, do you remember? It collapsed - just as I have always been saying - unity brings a common enemy. Now that Milo's Bloc has achieved its goal defeating its enemies - they turned on against themselves, just as it always happens.

I always consider what's best for the people - I'm no fanatic/nationalist or whatsoever - but a utopist (read up my user page). The rasformation of the State Union of Serbia and Montenegro is the best thing for its People - and I support Milo Djukanovich's campaign for it - but just as I support Miloshevich's investments in the economy, Stalin being the winner of the war - or Hitler's industrialization of Germany - if you know what I mean. I am far from supporting the Miloshevich-style Montenegrin dictatorship of Milo Dj. and his bloc... I thought you read all the info I wrote about Montenegro - you would've realized that by now (no comment?) Montenegro is about to have the first, regular elections in its history. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:12, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Now I am all puzzled. You supported Djukanovic for organizing the indepenence capmaign of Montenegro, and not te SDP. But then you support SDP to lead the independent country that Djukanovic organized, knowing that SDP was against the whole idea of independence. I am all confused :). I did not know Djukanovic was similar to Milosevic, having a dictatorship. I learn something new today for my neighbours. ilir_pz 20:24, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Template:Kosovo

Hi Ilir, why is your attitude toward this template contradictory with the more understandable approach you are showing in the main article? E Asterion 20:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

It was full of POV pushing, that is why. ilir_pz 20:21, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not saying less than you are saying, with my revert. No need to be so pushy like you once were in that particular page, Asterion. It won't bring any results.ilir_pz 20:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you still are. This is why you would not accept Kosovo is a province of Serbia, still part of Serbia and Montenegro (as the commonwealth has not been dissolved yet). I was never "pushy", just adding a verifiable fact. E Asterion 21:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

You think wrong, and for some reason I feel some "old-Asterionish" behaviour in you. Don't take my evaluation wrong. You just seem to be more tense, and more arrogant towards me lately. What I added is also verifiable. Depends how you look at it, doesn't it? Take care,ilir_pz 00:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No, Ilir. Is that "you against the world" attitude of yours what I find annoying sometimes. You could be a great guy but sometimes but so unwilling to compromise that it defies logic. Had you not been uncivil in your edit summary reply to User:Lord Eru at Template:Kosovo, I would not have intervened at all. You were happy to follow on User:Hipi Zhdripi on this once again.

1. By the way, this is from Encyclopaedia Britannica: KOSOVO (Albanian: Kosova): Region within the republic of Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia, 1929–2003), occupying the southwestern portion of the republic. Kosovo is bordered by Serbia proper to the north and east, Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west, and the republic of Montenegro to the northwest. Serbs call the region Kosovo and Metohija...
2. This from Encarta: Kosovo, province in southwestern Serbia, in the republic of Serbia and Montenegro (formerly the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, or FRY). Kosovo is bounded on the south by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, on the west by Albania, and on the northwest by Montenegro...
3. Another from 2006 Columbia Encyclopedia: KOSOVO or Kosovo-Metohija , Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet, province (2002 est. pop. 1,900,000), 4,126 sq mi (10,686 sq km), S Serbia and Montenegro, in Serbia. Priština is the chief city..."
4. And finally one more taken from the CIA Factbook (updated 1 June 2006), regarding administrative divisions in SM: 2 republics (republike, singular - republika); and 2 nominally autonomous provinces (autonomn pokrajine, singular - autonomna pokrajina)(both in the republic of Serbia)* ; Kosovo* (temporarily under UN administration, per UN Security Council Resolution 1244), Montenegro, Serbia, Vojvodina*

Bu you still will not accept it. This is why I feel that talking to you is like banging my head against the wall. Cheers, E Asterion 09:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

If you feel that talking to me is like banging your head against the wall, then do no talk to me. Spare your nerves, and mine(by reading your arrogant comments). You still seem arrogant towards me, you remember very well that I stop answering to people who talk in such manner to me. Do not push towards that. I am very conservative about my nerves, I consider more useful using them for a more vital needs I have in life.ilir_pz 10:18, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Montenegro

I suggest that you scroll up and read the text that I wrote to the up - and re-read the text o Montenegro that I wrote to you earlier in the archives - all those wars, political/criminal intrigues & other mischiefs were conducted by this very same Montenegrin government. You see, Slobodan Milosevic created Montenegro into his own puppet-state - empowering a triumvirate of 3 most powerful Montenegrins - most fanatical with the idealogy of Mileshevich's brainwash propaganda and finances: Milo Djukanovic, Svetozar Marovic & Momir Bulatovic. When the three had their powers combined - they were Gods in Montengro in 1990-1999. Two of them slightly altered their politics im proper to the fall of the Miloshevich world, only stay in power in 2000- present. Get it now? --HolyRomanEmperor 00:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I am still puzzled. Why did the people vote for Djukanovic's demand for independence, and would soon vote the guy who wanted Montenegro to remain in SCG, who you claim to be really democratic? Sorry, but this recent voting kind of proves you wrong in a way. Maybe I am misunderstanding, please bear up with me. ilir_pz 00:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Did you think that I wrote all that just because I'm an idiot (among other things ;) I wrote that so that you can finally understand the comprehensive picture of Montenegro - one of the most mixed in the world, where Montengro-Serbs are both defined & undefined as a people - where minorities rule over majorities and where oppositions always win in the political world - among other things (most being so complicated that I would have to write esseys - I gave you my short history of modern Montenegro that I presented on Thy talk page so that you can understand it best yourself). --HolyRomanEmperor 00:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I do not consider anyone an idiot, if they have the ability to make a point here in Misplaced Pages. They might just have a different view. Honestly, I thought the picture was much clearer to me about the situation in Montenegro, but you got me really confused now, with your prediction. If this was all a trick those leaders played with the Montenegro's population, then it is not good at all, and I would be sad to hear it. ilir_pz 00:15, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Revert warring

Regarding your edits to Demographic history of Kosovo: do not continue to simply revert this page constantly back to 'your' version. The 3 revert rule is a guideline, and users who show a heavy tendency to revert rather than discuss and compromise may still be blocked. --InShaneee 05:52, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand that, InShaneee, but I tried to explain and discuss why that box is inappropriate there, but seems like it is an "army" of meatpuppets who insist on that version. It does not mean that they are right, right? ilir_pz 10:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, you have broken the 3RR rule on Template:Kosovo. As for InShaneee, please have a read at WP:OWN. E Asterion 10:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever Asterion. You again accuse me of something ridiculous. I never claimed to own the article. whatever..really.ilir_pz 10:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not about whether you claimed it or not, but about actions. It took you less than an hour to revert the "intruder's edit". As InShaneee said you are showing a heavy tendency to revert rather than discuss. And please do not start doing that Little Britainesque's "whatever" thing to me. I just cannot stand it. Bye for now. E Asterion 10:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I discuss more than many around the articles that I am involved in, and you now it. Something tells me you need a break. ilir_pz 11:01, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of your reasons, there is no excuse for revert warring. Discuss things on the talk page, and if other users disagree, you'll simply have to accept the change. Additionally, you have been blocked for 24 hours for revert warring on Template:Kosovo. --InShaneee 17:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I did discuss. None discussed with me. If other users disagree I have to accept the change? What if those users are various sockpuppets and meatpuppets? I do not think you are right in this case. Thanks for the unilateral block issued to me, even if I did not violate the 3RR on the same edits, but changed the content to reach a compromise. Check better next time before you blindly issue a block. Regards, ilir_pz 18:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Comprimise comes before editing, not after. And yes, most CERTAINLY, if other users disagree with you, you should NOT edit war. And yes, if you continue doing it, you will be blocked again. --InShaneee 21:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I expect you to follow the activity of the meatpuppets which keep reverting without discussing. I at least post a message in the talk page, showing the reason why I revert. Because they are a bunch of users, and give no reason for reverting, it does not mean their reverts are justified. Thanks for the repeated threat, which even in the first case I do not justify. ilir_pz 22:26, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Continue

you would've understood if you have read all the info. To shortly continue the story (please comment my earlier info), the Montenegrin political leadership wanted to draw a line with the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia - finally ending all Yugo-separatism. This is why they opposed Kosovo's independence Albanian movement in the 1990s - and because numerious cities like Pec - and the complex of Dechani - are of great value to the montnegrins (also, Prizren, slightly). Slobodan Milosevic had rebuilt many Churches on Kosovo - successfully promoting the Serbian Orthodox Church - but lacked the skill/finances to raise the most importend old ones, destroyed by the Turks. This made the Islamic element of Kosovo and Metohija look insignificant. Operation Horseshoe was devised - it's basis lied on simple facts: If the Frontier wasn't independent - neither will Kosovo secede from Serbia/Yugoslavia - by any means necessary. The numerious Serbian refugees westwards from the Drina (especially from Croatia) were to be used as new colonists of Kosovo. FRY's population was gradually dropping (except for the nationally aware Croats, Muslims/Bosniaks, Albanians and slightly Hungarians) - so the refugees were positivly accepted - ready to fill in the gaps.

In the following years - sanctions threatened Yugoslavia again. In 1993, the Moslem declaration of Bosnia consitutated a new nation out of the Muslims by nationality - Bosniaks. The Montenegrin government denounced the Muslims of Montenegro that they're Bosniaks - because these Muslims are not Bosnians - nor is it right to create an Ethnic Group out of a nationality. The representers of the Islamic community of Montenegrin Sandzak responded by claiming who are the Montenegrins to teach us of the concept of ethnicity-nationality - when they themselves are, as it seems, Serbs?

The situation started to change with the West pressuring Yugoslavia ever more - and the first ethnic cleansing of Albanians on Kosovo occured. The KLA was formed as well - over time it became violent, so much that Ibrahim Rugova denounced it as being the legimitate representator of the democratic will of the Albanian people. The only thing that kept Montenegro with Serbia was the resurgent movement for a Greater Albania - that wanted to annex eastern Albanian-populated regions of Montenegro to Albania. This movement's plans were declared in Ulcinj based on ...with the formation of ethnic states - Greater Serbia and Greater Croatia - so shall we be in a Greater Albania. The failure of the concepts of Serbia and Croatia splitting Yugoslavia failed this movement - the KLA instigated a rebellion in Montenegro, with the likehood of the rebellions in Presevo, Medvedja, Bujanovac and Macedonia - but the culprits were caught and violently punished - and the movement stopped. HolyRomanEmperor 18:19, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

It became evident that Miloshevich's Bloc was failing - by then, the entire production in the Republic of Montenegro was put to a halt, and the country itself became a whole of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. All the "veterans" of the Yugoslav wars that were just being busy nconducting the national frightening of Hungarians and Croats in Vojvodina - were now being transfered to Kosovo. It's main source of income was smuggling weapons to Albania and ciggaretes & other goods to Croatia and Italy - it's unique geographical position giving it the ability to do so. Montenegro became the source of Miloshevich's criminal income. Milo Djukanovich, Svetozar Markovich and others faced numerious charges and trials from the Italian Court - but whenever it came to that, Miloshevich's ever growing hand reached and protected them. In the Federal government, democratic, liberal circles won - however, they had no power over the country in reality, as the old regimes were still in power in Serbia (Miloshevich's) and Montenegro (Miloshevich's puppets). There became a rift in the Montenegrin political leadership - one under Milo Djukanovich in Montenegro - and the other under Slodoban Miloshevich that retreated from Yugoslavism and fell back to the Republic of Serbia itself. HolyRomanEmperor 18:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The difference between the Banks in Montenegro and those in Serbia were obvious, though. While in RS the banks robbed the people - in Montenegro an even more organized Podgorica centralist footing was held - the Economy actually worked - they mostly relied on war profiteering. As soon as the war would be over - it meant the end of their economy - so that's why they gradually supported new "sparkles" across former Yugoslavia. Although inferior to Serbia, Montenegro's life standards remained high and the state ordered because of this. The mentallity of the people rapicly changed: in the early 1990s you've had fanatic Serb nationalists & brainwashed Miloshevich's minions - and in the late 1990s that very same people became pro-independists and anti-Serb propagators. The Yugoslav federal government became more democratic - while the montenegrin leadership under Slobodan Miloshevich retreated to Serbia. This led to the slow rift between Montenegro & Serbia. --HolyRomanEmperor 21:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Milo Djukanovich and his lackeys used everything they learned from a mastermind of politics & intigue - their tutor, Slobodan Miloshevich - to finalize their plans. They allied themselves with the Resistence & the Opposition in Montenegro - and devised a plan so devolish, so tricky & cunning that it was planned to the very end. By turning a blind eye to their black past - and mostly on relying the means of "Miloshevichism" - they conceived to realize Montenegro's 1991 desire for independence and eliminate all opponests. The sole reason was a perfect plan to stay in power by turning their backs on Belgrade & conquering Montenegro without political opponents - and without a single short fired.

The first action was allying with the Opposition (that opposed Miloshevich's Bloc since 1991 and constantly grew by time - and accepted an "Unholy Allience" as it was disguisted by the Podgorica regime) and reopen the border with Albania (that was just recently closed). Then, talks started with Zagreb & Tirana - and peace negotiations with the NATO seperately from the Federal Yugoslav government. The main reason for this was the 1999 NATO bombing campaign. After bombing Montenegro for several days - its people saw that it was being punished for something being conducted in a different place of FRY - the Republic of Serbia (Kosovo and Metohija). Montenegro drifted and opposed the Belgrade regime and guarranteed right-of-passage to UN peacekeeping travelling to Kosovo. As a reaction, Miloshevich and his lackeys invited the army to seize control over the Republic of Montenegro - he almost declared martial law - he was stopped by the turbollent actions on Kosovo, as since the NATO intervention, the war spurred more - and went very badly for both sides.

A large number of not only non-Albanian (mostly Serb), but also Albanian refugees to Montenegro from Kosovo only sped up the neutrality of Montenegro. At the peace treaty that temporarely solved the situation of Kosovo under UN protection and finished the Kosovo War, Montenegro didn't have its representatives - only Serbia had. Despite this, the factual loss of Kosovo was very deeply accepted in Montenegro. In 1999, the Assembly under Milo Djukanovich replaced the New Yugoslav Dinar from 1995 as the official currency of the Republic Montenegro by the German Mark - to start the Montenegrin economy seperated from the rest of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The same year - Miloshevich's regime finally collapsed in the Republic of Serbia and the last Montengrin political leadership in Belgrade withdraws. In 2000, Miloshevich is handed over to the Hague together with his band. Milo Djukanovich's collaboration with the west saves him from the Hague and he successfully keeps his black book of life very well hidden. At times, he admitted what he did - and claimed that he had done that under Miloshevich's pressure. His plan for a Montenegro that will become a "criminal haven" for his Bloc - which was/is becoming the "rulling class" in Montenegro was being realized by day - the pro-Serbian President of Montenegro & still faithful servant of Belgrade was the problem.

This is the end of the first half of the Republic of Montenegro within the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia era (1992-1999). --HolyRomanEmperor 23:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

With all respect, HRE, you should provide a bit of adduce for your edits. Makes it more credible for me to read. I need to do something these 2 days, so might not have time to read the text thoroughly. Sorry.ilir_pz 18:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome

Given the personalised nature of the arguments by some users, you have shown remarkable patience in the face of what can only be described as bullying. As for the 3RR issue, I recently fell foul of that for the same reasons as you - changing different parts of the same article while simultaneously reverting vandalism. When I reverted more blanking of the page, I was blocked again - even though there was no suggestion of a 3RR violation. The problem with admins is that they are given a report by a trouble-maker and blindly act on it, without knowing the context - perhaps their judgements are also influenced by their personal prejudices. This is a problem with an amateur project like Misplaced Pages and one that we have to put up with, sadly.

On the issue of Serbia and Montenegro, I would urge that we make no judgement on whether Kosovo is or is not a province of Serbia and instead quote from the two most important legal documents: the UN Resolution on Kosovo's status and the Constitution of Serbia and Montenegro. In my mind, the contradict. But it is up to the reader to determine which is more applicable. Given the fact that the union of Serbia and Montenegro is likely to be dissolved this year, forcing a new declaration on Kosovo's status, I don't think you'll have long for a definite legal answer to this issue.--الأهواز 19:19, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A vote

Dear Ilir, since this dispute (Kosovo and Template:Kosovo)is still in a deadlock, I would like to ask if you could agree to have a vote on the subject. This way we would get an idea of how widely supported different introductions to the article are. I will do my best to get as many (neutral) people to vote as possible. The idea was to let them choose between your version, a version by Osli and Asterion and, optionally, an intermediate version written by me. Ofcourse this is only usefull if all parties (you, Osli, Asterion) agree to accept the result of the vote if there is a clear majority. I would set it up, in close correspondence with all of you, according to Misplaced Pages:Current_surveys and Misplaced Pages:Straw_polls, which is part of Misplaced Pages:Resolving_disputes. Let me know how you feel on this matter, Cpt. Morgan 19:56, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

If we decide to put this dispute for voting, but of course the version of the pro-Serbian editors will prevail, as right now it is only me (and maybe one or two) who are active on this particular subject who disagrees. But yeah sure, go for it. I do not favour the deadlock created either. But remember, no version proposed so far is mine per-se, as I do not support the one I actually defend as of now. The reason I am defending it, is because I am compromising, and I prefer to agree to disagree, hence that version. And the only reason I do so is because it is backed by the two most important laws valid in Kosovo right now. ilir_pz 22:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I understand your concerns regarding a vote, but I am afraid it will otherwise end up at the arbitration commitee, which often ends in one more users getting blocked in editing certain articles or topics. To address your concerns as much as possible, I suggest to put the following restrictions on every option for the intro: 1) It should state that Kosovo is administered by the UN, 2) it should state Kosovo is part of a larger union/country (either Serbia or FRY) and 3) it should state that Kosovo will most likely become indepedent in the near future. If you agree to these terms, I will also inform also the others and you and they can propose an introductory sentence. After a few days, this will be put up for a vote, which will run for 1-2 weeks. After that time, the introduction that is voted for the most (or has an agreed percentage of the votes, we also have to figure that out), will be the introduction of the article for the coming months. Cpt. Morgan 22:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"My" proposal agreed already to all three points that you mentioned, it definitely states that it is administered by UN, it stated that the UNSCR 1244 de-jure still confirms that Kosovo is a part of FRY, and that it does function independently from the former (that is a fact, stated by most of the international governments, as it is UNMIK that governs with Kosovo, without FRY having any rights over any decision) and the indications show that full independence is about to be recognized by the end of the year...also stated by many. I will think of a more concise intro and send it over to you. Let me know before you submit proposals for the vote. Thanks, ilir_pz 23:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

A new version was proposed by an Adminstrator (TheTom) on the Kosovo talk page, perhaps you can have a look? Cpt. Morgan 05:07, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ilir, since we haven't heard from User:The Tom for a few days, do you agree we continue with the vote using your last version in Talk: Kosovo and the version by Asterion and Osli73 in User talk:Reinoutr? Best regards, Cpt. Morgan 21:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

apet une

e pash qe e ki shkrujt dikund per jamal curtis. une e di 100% te sigurt qe ai eshte emri tjeter i dzonit, se jam tu e percill ne wikin e tyre. ky e ka edhe emrin cetnici. ka sigurisht edhe emra tjere, ama keta jane te sigurte. ate person edhe ne wiki te gjuhes se vet e kane blloku. e ai qe e ki akuzu ti: c-ja, se nuk po ja permendi emrin e plote, eshte ndoshta i atij qe kinse po don me leshu wikin. krejt te smut jane keta. po nuk kane faj se ua ka myk trurin propaganda e vendit te vet. po zgjohen ndoshta prej gjumit ndonjehere. te kishin blloku e pash. po me vjen shume keq qe nuk po muj me te ndihmu. edhe plus faktet historike nuk po i di shume mire, ti po din mjaft mire me i sqaru. po veshtire me depertu se keta te gjithe i kane ka 3-4 emra, e bohen kishe jane italian apo francez. ama une po e di menjehere se jane kopjet e tyre. cili spanjoll pash zote ka nerva edhe lufton aq shume per me shti ne artikull qe kosova eshte pjese e serbise?! keto fore neve nuk munden me na leshu. apet me randesi eshte qe vendi i jone ka mu bo i pavarur ju pelqeu ketyre apo jo. ti mundohu ma shume me u koncentru ne prezentimin tend qe e paske se shpejti. shume fat edhe ruj nervat! tung --Mig11 22:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, why do you think the name of Montenegro has been "a divided land"? :D --HolyRomanEmperor 15:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Ulqin

Thanks for the explanation! I was mainly confused because of websites like ulqini.com and ulqini.de which seem to be using Ulqini as nominative. --dcabrilo 23:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks in my name too, but you should really have explained that on Talk:Ulcinj so that others can benefit as well—I accidentally found it on dcabrilo's talk page. Duja 10:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Disturbing you? How I just said hi:S C-c-c-c 23:59, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Pristina

You asked for my opinion about name of Priština. Since it is certain that final solution for Kosovo will define Kosovo as some kind of state (whether fully independent or in some union with Serbia I do not know), but in both cases, names for the Kosovo places in Misplaced Pages then should be in main language used in Kosovo, and that is Albanian. That is what names we should use after final status is defined, but I do not know what names we should use before it. Even by the 1244 resolution, Kosovo is only formaly defined as part of FRY, but both, de facto and de jure, it is defined as an autonomous entity by the UN. Even current status of Kosovo could be good base to use names for places in main language spoken of Kosovo, but since there is no consensus about this among Misplaced Pages users, I have no idea what we should do at the present moment. PANONIAN (talk) 13:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Priština -> Pristina_Pristina-2006-06-07T06:35:00.000Z">

Hi,

I am replying here, because I don't want to clutter that talk page. Misplaced Pages has a naming policy and "tradition" and do not try to justify anything on Misplaced Pages with how somebody feels about it. E.g. English word for Kosovo is Kosovo, not Kosova. English word for Pristina is Pristina, not Priština/Prishtina. Now, it will serve your cause better, and you will contribute more to the discussion, if you try to find solid sources that widely used English name for the capital of Kosovo is Pristina. E.g. try Google Books. I do agree with you that it should be moved to Pristina, but most people (read: Serbs) will go against it if we anounce it without a proper, consistent, no bullshit, argument. Cheers --dcabrilo 06:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)_Pristina"> _Pristina">

Howdy, Dcabrilo. Yup, I got your point, thanks for explaining. That is why I suggested the name for which none has feelings about, but it is just the way the UN mission in Kosovo has adopted. You should also know one thing, that if you rely on Google hits, you should know that the Serbian version will return more hits, because it includes the "Pristina" and the Serbian version. The diacritic is ignored in the first case. But anyways, here is a list of (influential) sources that use the version I am suggesting temporarily: US Mission in Kosovo, UNMIK administration, EU Mission in Kosovo, OSCE, NATO-KFOR, BBC, CNN, etc. Feel free to look through them. take care, ilir_pz 09:36, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree...

...with you. Albanians and Serbs are AFAIC closer that Croats and Serbs (in ways). If you didn't know, there is a big difference between Albanians north of the river of Shkumb (Serbian-cultured) and south (hellenic-cultured). Throughout the history, Albanian princesses gave birth to Serb rulers and a Serbian Princess gave birth to Skenderbeg himself. Two clans in the Serb tribes are AFAIC ethnicly Albanian - and plenty Christian Albanians fled to Herzegovina and remained there for a long time (possibly assimilated). The Kingdom of Albania was created, among others, by Serbian courtiers - and Stefan Dušan was the Emperor of Albanians (next to others) who, for the first time, made Albanians a people in their own land - and before him there wasn't any Albanian nobility. There are several words in Serbian that are originally Albanian - and many words in Albanian that are originally Serbian. John Kastrioti's tomb in Elbesan bears an inscription in three languages: Greek, Latin and Serbian (Slavic). Elbesan is also a concentration of Serbian medieval rulers' tombs (noticed it's location? central Albania). Unlike many think, the two peoples were the same before the arrival of the Ottomans - and extreemly related until the passing of the Ottomans. --HolyRomanEmperor 19:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Now you just confirmed the propaganda by Milosevic, that Albanians that live in north of Shkumbin are called Shiptari, and those in the south are Albanian. I must disappoint you, by telling you that this is pure propaganda, and nonesense. I am very disappointed you believe in such nonsense, as I believed you were much smarter thant this. Albanians and Serbs are closer than Croats and Serbs? I will have to put this quote in my user-page soon. My God....ilir_pz 09:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

What? Why did you misinterpret every single thing I said? My point was simply - Serbs and Albanians are a people that share a very common history, traditions, culture (and many other things that have from each other). What was wrong? --HolyRomanEmperor 12:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not think you meant that. Our cultures mixed, and that is because we were neighbours for many centuries. But to say that you did not mix with Croatians, and that Albanians north of Shkumbin (you are clearly saying we are different from those in the south) are closer to Serbs in any way?!? That is too much. It is very interesting though, how different in cultures we have even though we lived for so many centuries close. There are very few inter-marriages, our languages are very different, we do not share the common religions, and have very different customs. I am not sure your claims are true, about Stefan Dusan creating the Kingdom of Albania, or Skenderbeg's mother being Serbian. Albanians and Serbs did not cooperate that much, even back in long history. Maybe we can make a difference, once Kosovo's status is confirmed. But that cannot be done by speculating, and referring to unconfirmed historical facts. ilir_pz 11:33, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I though that Serbs and Albanians had cooperated quite a lot, in the Middle Ages at least. At the Battle of Kosovo, didn't the Serb king have both Serbian and Albanians vassals fighting for him (while the Turkish sultan had quite a few Serbian vassals fighting for him)? And after the Battle of Kosovo, didn't both Serbian and Albanian lords serve in the Ottoman army? Generally, people dind't think that much about ethnicity back then (quite refreshing to think about it, actually).

Taking a look at Sweden (where I'm from), at the peak of power in the 17th century, the royal family was very cosmopolitan (see relations of Charles XII, for example), the soldiers were Swedish, Finnish, Baltic, Germans and Scots, the bourgeoisie (burghers) were mainly Germans and Dutch and the nobility liked to speak French to each other. Osli73 11:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Nope, that was just one battle, in which not only Serbs and Albanians took place, but many other Balkans nations. Being in the Ottoman army, does not mean they cooperated. I think that back then they thought about ethnicity much more, and fought each other based on that, unfortunately. I wish that was true. If that were true, the hatred would not build up to this point that people had to shamefully fight in the end of the 20th century. I was mainly contradicting HRE above, for his claim that Albanians are close to Serbians in any way, and that Croats are not :))) that is just a ridiculous statement. Besides the religion, I am not sure what else do Serbs and croats not share?! Some Croats claim that they have Illyrian origin, but I am not very sure about that. ilir_pz 11:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I recently finished reading a book (Krigarnas och Helgonens tid) on the early Middle Ages (400-800) in Europe by one of Sweden's most influential historians right now, Dick Harrison. It mainly focuses on Western and Southern Europe (Spain and Italy). An interesting part of it was about how conquering Germanic tribes interacted with the local population and nobility (in particular). His basic message is that the nobility sought to assume whatever culture had the highest status at the time (i.e. Roman/Byzantine culture). There appeared to be relatively little "ethnic" identification.

For example, the Goths, Gepids, Huns, Vandls, Kumans and various other peoples who entered Europe at the time were in many cases more like loose confederations of peoples of varying cultural/ethnic background than consolidated monolithic nations. For example, the Serb and Croat nations/tribes who entered the Balkans in the 7th century were, according to most scholars, formed by a mix of Slav and Indo-Iranian tribes (the etymology of Croats and Serbs is believed to be of Indo-Iranian origin from the region around the Caspian Sea). Once in the Balkans the elites of the Slavic tribes (including the Bulgars, of Turkic origin) usually sought to adopt Byzantine culture/identity as that was the prestige culture of the time. Medieval Serb culture/ethnicity, for example, would probably be a mix of Indo-Iranian, Slavic and Byzantine/Greek culture.

As the Slavs moved into what is today Greece, they usually adopted not only the Byzantine culture, but also the Greek language. So, present day Greeks are probably more related to the Slavs than to the ancient Greeks.

So, I have a very hard time believing that, somehow, Albanian culture and the Albanian ethnic group would have managed to maintain some kind of isolation vis-a-vis the rest of the world. Maybe a lot of the invading Slavs adopted the Albanian culture/language in some part just as they had adopted the Greek language/culture in other parts. And who is to say that a lot of 'Albanians' livnig in the Balkans durig the 7th century didn't adopt the culture/language of the invading Slavs. In Bosnia, 700 years later, a large obviously did adopt at least the culture and religion of the invading Turks/Ottomans, becoming today's Bosniaks.

Seeing the history of Europe, or indeed of the Balkans, as a history of distinct peoples and nations seems like a very old fashioned/antiquated way of looking at history and ethnicity. Sadly, it still seems to be very much adhered to in the Balkans. My guess is that it has to do with insecurity and a need to establish a historical record to justify present-day nationalist issues/conflicts.

Sorry for the long harangue on this, but I feel it is such a commonly misunderstood topic.Osli73 14:35, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem, Osli73. I understand your point. Cultures mix always. The culture of Albanians has borrowed from all sorts of occupators crossing through these lands. If we were to compare, Albanians got the least from Serbs. And what they got? I cannot really say, as I know no example of what Albanians borrowed from Serbs. Maybe they learnt about patience, and ability to live under occupation for decades, that maybe yes. After 5 centuries of occupation Albanians inherited Islam from Ottomans, that I know from medieval times. My point was also quite clear. Stating that Albanians (from north of some river in Albania, which is some sort of division of Gegh and Tosk - two main groups constituting Albanians) have more in common with Serbs, than Croats have, is just a propaganda fed by Milosevic and the alike. They always attempted to call Albanians living in the north "Shiptars" and those in the south "Albanians". And this was always used to feed nationalistic needs of Serbs, and create divisions among Albanians. But of course, none besides Serbs believed in this, fortunately. I do not buy this, either, and furthermore it just annoys me to listen to. Regards, ilir_pz 20:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

P. S. - you're user page is very contradicting. KLA, Nato, Clinton, Rugova & Surroi at the same spot. :))) --HolyRomanEmperor 17:05, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

They all supported each other :)) Surroi is in a parliament, working closely with KLA-founded political party, Clinton and NATO did support KLA and their activities during the Kosovo war. Rugova also gave credits to KLA, NATO, Clinton, and had respect for Surroi. Rugova by the way even decorated Adem Jashari as a Hero of Kosovo. I do not see any contradictions. On the contrary, I am very consistent. ;) ilir_pz 11:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Eh, Surroi is a political idealist that I simply adore (like Ibrahim Rugova, Zoran Djindjich, etc.). Much better than the current government of Kosovo (Agyn Ceku - murders for heads of governments?) You support the NATO - which in a period of time considered KLA a terrorist organization. You also support peaceful, democratic movements of Rugova & Surroi - which is contradicting to the violent, extremist Kosovo Liberation Army. NATO is also responsible for Albanian losses - an Albanian children bus was hit by a NATO rocket. Rugova denounced KLA - claiming that it's violence doesn't represent the democratic will of the Albanian people. I personally think that the KLA is a shame - and never should the Albanian people be looked by them (especially not be proud of them). Image me putting on my talk page "This user thanks the democratic revolutionary attempts of Zoran Djindjich" and "This user supports the ideology of the Serbian Radical Pary of Vojislav Seselj" at the same time! Also, sorry for me being harsh like this - but your general "buttons" show simple Albanian nationalism. It's like it doesn't matter to you whether they are violent, democratic, traitors against your own people - just that they are ethnic Albanians. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason that this post of mine was this harsh is that your reply to my post about Serbs & Albanians - showed as if you're dispicable of anything Serbo-Albanian. Or better said - that you disguist if Serbs have anything common with Albanians. --HolyRomanEmperor 15:14, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not share your opinion at all in this case, HRE. Sorry to disapoint you. Being a person that lived through the Kosovo war, I have the right to judge my way, and as such, those buttons in my page are completely justified. You have your reasons (which I really do not understand, as you are in no way related to Kosovo, neither were there during the war) which are based mainly in what propaganda you (have been) are fed. Regards, ilir_pz 20:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

"NATO did support KLA". So do you agree Wesley Clark committed perjury? See page 30510 line 5. -- Phil 15:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Wesley Clark and NATO, so to speak, was supporting the right side in the imposed Kosovo war. I am shocked at whose accusation you are citing, Phildav76. Isn't he the butcher of the Balkans you are defending here? I do not feel like using the name of that person anymore. ilir_pz 20:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I take that as a yes in answer to my question then. He was certainly one of those responsible for escalating the war in the first place. He also loves himself seepage 30531 line 3. -- Phil 22:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

You obviously have simpathy for the one who triggered the war, the Balkans Butcher. But yes, Mr.Clark was among those responsible for Kosovo's liberation, if that is what you meant :). I am sorry, but I admire Mr. Clark, thanks to whom I might be able to type here now :)...which reminds me, I forgot to put a thank you note for him in my user page. I should be ashamed. ilir_pz 23:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It sure would be an interesting area to research. Considering that both Serbs and Albanians fought the Ottomans at Kosovo Polje (together with others for sure) and Serbs and Albanians have mixed in various (Serbian) medieval kingdoms there must have been quite a lot of mixing. Why is it so preposterous to claim that some Serbs may have been ethnic Albanians to begin with and vice versa? When did the differences between the Ghegs and Tosks appear or have they always been there? There are lots of examples of states which have been formed by other ethnic minorities: Kievan Rus (Vikings from Roslagen) and the Serbs themselves (Indoiranians) are two examples.Osli73 15:05, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

POLL

No, no, no, not what you think! This time is for something that all of us need:

Improvement of the <ref> function.

Please weigh in at Misplaced Pages talk:Footnotes#Poll! NikoSilver  18:09, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

How to make little box

Hey I'm zastavafan76 and if you don't remember me I'm the person who was editing the Kosovo War article, and remember how I deleted the kosovo history box and you put it back and then someone put it as a link? Can you tell me html code to make a box like that? I'd appreciate. thanks

-Zastavafan76

Hey Jatroxoursox, you can just go to the template, edit the page and copy it off that and test around with it. A 10 year old would know that, no offense though since you're new to Misplaced Pages. Crna Gora 02:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Question

Hey Ilir. Question, do you use msn? (I mean msn messenger or windows messenger). Also I fixed up my version of the Kosovo introduction, though I think its better than the others. Tell me what you think? Bye. Crna Gora 02:03, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts CrnaGora, I gave some comments there I think. Nevertheless. My hotm account is iliripz, so feel free to add me there. But I must tell you that I am rarely in it, as I am pretty busy these days. But drop a line if you find me there, or even email. Best regards, ilir_pz 11:23, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What?

No, I have nothing with Kosovo - I've been there only several times - I do not draw origin from it, nor do I know anything about the Kosovo War in person (or anything similiar). Stop acusing me of being propagandist - haven't you ever had a feeling that maybe you were being subject to propaganda as well (consider that I have never even openly said this to you -ever). What I bother is the current Albanian government of Kosova. No, I haven't seen in person many of the things - but Kosova's Premier, Agin Ceku? I know all about him. His past is enough. Remember when he said ...hopes that Serbs will not look at his past, but at the democratic future of Kosova... He just wants his black past closed (like Milo Djukanovic). A man under his command killed my relative. I've seen him in action in the Croatian Civil War - and the man is terror itself - the Croat soldiers that served under him feared him. The actual fact that he was involved in one (if not the) bloodiest invasions/military operations of Modern Europe - Operation Storm - is enough. I am not being bombarded - I just cannot trust a demon set loosse and allegedly "good now". --HolyRomanEmperor 12:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yoohooo

Hey Ilir were ya been? World's been kinda bland without ya lol, all the Albanians have mysteriously disappeared. C-c-c-c 22:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have a life. ilir_pz 11:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Albright

You may find the following excerpt interesting:

In a 1996 interview with "60 Minutes," Albright responded, "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it" when asked about the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children due to sanctions placed on Iraq. .

I guess I know how you can support her now. C-c-c-c 02:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. You cannot do anything about my love for her. She has just done a lot for my country, me, my family..and I give her credits for that, not for anything else. ilir_pz 11:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo once more

Dear Ilir, we are still trying to get the Kosovo article edit block lifted. We have a new version that you can see at the bottom of . This version, however, includes the following compromises (also listed there):

• UN Security Council Resolution 1244 does not mention Serbia, only the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
• Based on international law and UN regulations, Serbia is the successor state of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
• Because the term autonomous is sensitive in this respect and not required for the understanding of the article, it is left out
• Based on recent news items and UN publications, independence of Kosovo is a very likely outcome of the currently ongoing talks, but might be subjected to specific conditions.
• Kosovo is defined as a province (both here and in other related texts), not a region

I would strongly ask you to agree with this version (see ) , which takes into account all the comments we have heard before but includes some choices that you will not like. It is a compromise, however, and also the other parties in this dispute have made quite some compromises to get to this version. I do not think much more compromises in either direction will be possible. So for the sake of wikipedia, I would like to ask you to seriously consider this version. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Hoi Reinoutr, sorry for being absent for some time, as I had more important things to doI will get back to you very soon, but I do not agree with the second term still, as I do not have credible facts stating that. The last point is also wrong, as the status of a province was a long time ago revoked, and as such is inexistent for about 18 years now, and referring to Kosovo with that name is just wrong. Best, ilir_pz 11:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ilir, I think the term province could be negiotable, although I would like to ask you not to make too much of an issue of that. You asked us before not to change wordings like 'in' to 'of', now I would like to ask you the same thing. With regard to the second point:

The IMF sees Serbia as the successor to SCG:

The UN sees Serbia as the successor to SCG:

The EU sees Serbia as the successor to SCG:

According to the BBC, Serbia is the successor to SCG:

According to CNN, Serbia is the successor to SCG:

And there are many, many more like that. If that is not enough for you, nothing ever will be I am afraid and we will never find a way out of this dispute. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 12:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

hi

Ilir, long time since we´ve heard from each other. how was your presentation? everything went ok? hope to see you here back again. regards, --Mig11 15:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

everything went just perfect, Mig11. Thanks for asking. I am just busy now searching for jobs and enjoying my free time in the meantime. I replied to you already, in more detail. Regards, ilir_pz 11:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)