Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:30, 17 June 2006

If you have the capacity to tremble with indignation every time that an injustice is committed in the world, then we are comrades. – Che.

Southern Rhodesia draft:

Archived Discussions

Archive 2 Sam Spade apology

Hello!

Good day to you again, can we talk someplace private? (IRC maybe? You should be non-banned) Kim Bruning 21:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

IRC?! Are you mocking me? ;) Note, though, that Linuxbeak has lifted NichoalsTurnbull's ban a few seconds after it was implemented. I'm not worried about it. I just don't know if I have the energy anymore. I've spent over an hour speaking to Linuxbeak yesterday and nothing positive has come of it. I could have written several articles, instead. Discretion does not appear suited for this case anymore, I'm inclined to have discourse that's open, that's on the record, that takes place on-wiki. Regards, El_C 21:44, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to hear your having trouble here El_C - i think your efforts have been appreciated by many people, hope you solve the problem. --A.Garnet 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind words. The solution appears daunting right now, so I'm either going to give up or keep to myself. Regards, El_C 21:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

But I am not yet withdrawing from the pertinent debate, lest some mistake this for "victory." El_C 21:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather not see people infighting over this on-wiki. That's not helping anyone. I specifically recommend against any kind of action against Linuxbeak at this point in time.

I will talk with NicholasT when he comes online to ascertain what happened on irc.

Please reconsider private conversation over this matter. That way we can quickly eliminate a large number of possible misunderstandings quietly, which would otherwise cause us both great harm in public. Kim Bruning 22:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Kim, but I'm not inclined to do so at this time. I expected an apologetic note, not to have an "however slight" so crudely offsetted with a "most people I respect are indefferent about this situation." The public damage has already been done and appear likely to continue. El_C 22:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that private conversations are the root of this problem. Guettarda 22:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

El, I've read the log, and disagree strongly with the action of kicking you, in fact I feel rather inclined to join you in staying away from the channel. Btw, Kim no longer needs to ascertain what happened on IRC, as I have told him in full. Bishonen | talk 22:34, 30 May 2006 (UTC).

I also disagree with El_C getting kicked, mind you. Kim Bruning 22:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Child reports? What? Now you got suit dummies makin' up big fancy word papers about me being a bad father because i'm rich now? This is bullshit Lucy! I'm not a bad father am I Trinity? El_C 22:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Quick note for the benefit of Guettarda: private conversations go wrong about as often as public conversations. When you mess up a conversation in private, you look like an idiot in private. When you mess up a conversation in public, you look like an idiot in public.

Thus, private conversations are much more useful when mediating or negotiating things. :-) Kim Bruning 23:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No doubt - I should have said the last things I said to you (Kim) in private, rather than in the public square. But when private conversations result in decisions that cost us some of our best editors, public conversation begins to look much more appealing. Guettarda 23:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Kim's law:

Public conversations are larger, slower, and less subtle. Misunderstandings arise more quickly. Therefore, when a public conversation fails, a private conversation can make things better. When a private conversation fails, a public conversation can make things worse.

Kim Bruning 07:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better...

I know it may mean nothing to you, but I happen to think IRC has the possibility of being harmful to WP. It can cause a sense of Cabalilty and Secretosity. It isn't "open". I know you are not inclined to head back at this moment, but I just thought I'd pass along a little comment. If you decide not to return, don't worry. I for one have never even used IRC and I seem to get along just fine. I haven't had any problem keeping up with the Jolie-Pitts. My RfA flew through just fine. And all without calls of a Cabal. Well, don't know if this has any effect on you, or if you even care, just thought I'd pass it along. See you around. --You Know Who 23:09, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Same here, LV, I've only been on IRC 10 (well, barring the times I just go to see if Bishonen is around, but then I just pm with her and don't pay attention to the main channel) or so times, and it has not negatively impacted anything related to myself. Yeah, I may return sometimes in the future, that's not the issue. The issue is, as you said, "the possibility of it being harmful to Misplaced Pages." We'll see what people think. We'll also see whether my IRC-pile-on theory becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.El_C 23:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Meh, IRC is just a network, and a communications tool like many others. Use it or not as you wish. (personally I don't think much of wikien-l, and so avoid *that* even though wikien-l is technically supposed to be authoritative.) Kim Bruning 23:20, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Each communication tool has different attributes. I'm interested in limiting some types of decision-making which takes place with "IRC approval" and then immediately implemented on Misplaced Pages. But I'm not drafting that policy. I did the AfD categories one (that I came up with while speaking to you, on IRC no less!). It's your turn. Oh and regarding the AfD one, any news about the tech prospects? El_C 23:37, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

There's no such thing as "IRC approval". Upstart wikipedia users discover this at their own peril. (recalling some embarrasing memories)

So I'm not even writing policy on this. :-P Let people turn red once or twice, they'll learn quickly enough.

As for AfD, I asked TAW to look, but he wasn't interested in helping out, so I'm not sure who to look for to help you out. See if you can find a different developer. Your ircphobia is not helping here :-(. Kim Bruning 07:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

1. There's no such thing as "IRC approval". Upstart wikipedia users discover this at their own peril. (recalling some embarrasing memories) — controversial actions need to be brought before and approved on Misplaced Pages, it's that simple.

   Indeed it is. And people find that out the hard way, every once in a while. <innocent look> Kim Bruning

Why can't we have either guidelines or policy to respond to that, though? El_C 10:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

1. So I'm not even writing policy on this. :-P Let people turn red once or twice, they'll learn quickly enough. — only presupposing the hopelessness of the above.

   Which is quite a hopeless thing indeed. Kim Bruning

Oh, come on Kim! As Ricky famously said: "I'm not a pessimist, I'm an optometrist."

1. I asked TAW to look, but he wasn't interested in helping out, so I'm not sure who to look for to help you out. See if you can find a different developer. — That's too bad.

   Yuppers. Kim Bruning

2. Your ircphobia is not helping here :-( — if ircphilia proves a hindrence, I could always spam the developers with pleas for help on the foundation wiki itself. Maybe bring it to the attetion of the board. They could even hire someone for that one task if need be. I wonder if I'll be the first editor to get banned from there! But nonetheless, the AfD policy enjoys support by a supermajority (and also from Jimbo), so it's difficult to envision how my criticisms of certain IRC-related practices (ones shared by others) should be seen as a factor in any of this. But it would be funny! El_C 08:46, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

   'Tis not your criticism. I just thought that if you really hated irc, you wouldn't have the will to go back there with me and lassoo us some devs ;-) Kim Bruning 10:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, after my the 'the truth hurts' (as I see it), I'm unsure how welcoming of an enviornment it would be, so I leave that domain to the tens of other people who supported the proposal. But I meant, hypothetically, in case a majority of devs are from the IRC camp that opposes my & others position as illustrated above. But, yes, I misread that; although it was fun to entertain a devs conspiracy theory. Back to practicalities: we try to find a dev soon, and if too much time passes without one, we go through higher and higher channels until it happens, protest, have a march or a carnival, and so on. But the sooner the better, is the point. El_C 10:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Not cool

We can disagree civilly, but this edit was not cool. Raul654 01:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Yet you made no comment when he used that phrase originally to refer to the "situation" involving the departure of six valued admins. That is not cool. Regards, El_C 01:24, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Linuxbeak made such a comment? Raul654 01:25, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. "there are those who strongly disagree with me. Some include some of the people that I put the utmost respect in. Others that I have the utmost respect for have supported my efforts. Still more people that I respect have stated that they are indifferent to the situation but wish me the best of luck." Regards, El_C 01:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

His comment simply noted that there are people he respects who have no opinion of the matter (which I strongly suspect is true). Your comment, it appeared to me, was kicking someone when he is down. How are those two comments in the same league? Raul654 01:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

It's not simply, he has to exercize sensitivity. On to you, Raul, if I learn that this course of action was, in fact, discussed on IRC, then we're certainly facing the danger of it continuing to serve as more exclusive place for these sort of controversial actions than Misplaced Pages itself — in a case that already epitomizes IRC used in such a way. Regards, El_C 01:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I admit I discussed this with both Linuxbeak and Blu Aardvark in IRC before doing the unblock (and during the storm the brewed following it). It seemed the prudent course of action, and considering Blu's ban, on-wiki discussion was impossible. Raul654 01:48, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I can't see how you can argue an on-wiki discussion was impossible, then effectively keeping it secret until the implementation and predictable wheeling that ensues. I'm at a loss for words. El_C 01:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

In retrospect, my approach wasn't the best. The question about whether blu aardvark should be allowed to edit again or not is contentious, and I suspect it won't have a definitive answer unless decided by the arbom. What do you think of that? Raul654 01:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Good, thank you. I have no opinion about whether the arbcom should be the deciding body so much, what I do want to see is a clear and unequivocal apology and rejection of all the Nazi hate speech that he allowed to take place on the old WR. Had he listened to me then, as it happned and immediately after, that would not be a factor today. Not to mention partipating in the Brandt harrassment. Blu, in his apology, is rejecting exactly what I asked of him following the racist hate speech on the old Misplaced Pages Review: "find assum responsibility. Regards, El_C 02:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

As for sensitivity, I have already stated I will not use my admin powers again in this situation. I simply wanted to give Blu a probationary period (per my belief that admins should be given discretion to conduct such experiments), and I didn't appreciate it when (after I spent 30 minutes unblocking Blu due to a mediawiki bug) Lethe casually redoes the block. Beyond that, I think I have been quite civil in explaining my position. Raul654 01:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No, that was re: Linuxbeak and the whole 'most users that I respect were indifferent about this situation." El_C 01:53, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Injury picture

I had to sign out to write this, but I have to say that, FWICT, you are ridiculously hot... 69.212.18.213 02:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Please, please, please be female! El_C 02:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

The spectre of Raul's 8th law rears its ugly head once again :) Raul654 02:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

A compliment is a compliment, even if it (sadly) sees no action. :/ Btw, Raul, what do I get for reasonably explaining the eighth law: quite simply, Misplaced Pages provides an anonymous enviornment where homophobic hate speech and other forms of these types of systemic abuses (which should be called "racist") are not tolerated. It makes perfect sense, actually. HTH! :) El_C 02:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I regret to say that I am indeed not female. On the other hand, you've displaced Rudy Koot atop my "hottest Wikipedians" list. 69.212.18.213 04:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I do?

"Kim disagrees with me that this can realistically be reflected in a policy/guideline." Kim Bruning 12:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, okay, now I understand, so you're just not prepared to be the one who drafts it. But, again, it is your turn, since I drafted the AfD one... El_C 13:41, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

"the wub's first law: The impossible holy grail of Misplaced Pages policy is a complete definition of common sense. It follows that anything less is flawed by comparison." ;-) Kim Bruning 10:31, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Blu_Aardvark

Hello,

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Blu_Aardvark. Please add evidence to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Blu_Aardvark/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Blu_Aardvark/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, --Tony Sidaway 00:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

ITN

And I caution you against talking out of your ass and giving me baseless "cautions". What the hell was that all about? --Golbez 20:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Please exercize some restraint before perssing submitt. Appearences make a difference was my point, and I reiterate it. No harm done by refraining from that "every happening in the world" comment. I am going to write the article, then add it to ITN. Hope that's okay with you. El_C 20:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

What appearances? I removed the World Economic Forum because it had no updated article, with the note that ITN is not the place to mention every going-on in the world. That is hardly Afrophobic, and I demand you retract both that comment, and your "caution" to me for it. By all means, write the article - but don't add it to ITN before you do, and don't slander me. --Golbez 20:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how I slandered you. It's obvious that ITN is not the place to mention "every going-on in the world," after a few tens of thousands of edits and quite a few ITN entries (not all had fully updated articles, some were written shortly after), it would be safe to assume that I know this, but regardless, that "every going-on" can also be interperted as minor things, therefore, it could be inadvertantly "read as" marginalizing. Nothing impropper with cautioning someone of mistakes they may inadvertantly commit. El_C 21:13, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I did not inadvertantly commit jack. Show me where in my comment I expressed a fear of Africa or its people? --Golbez 21:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I felt it could be read as marginalizing, sorry if the choice of words was imprecise. El_C 21:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Good. And I disagree that it's marginalizing, but at least that wasn't a baseless appeal to racism. Consider your words more carefully in the future. --Golbez 21:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, sure, but that is what I attempted to convey to you. I'm trying to avoid baseless appeals to racism on the part of those who may feel it has anything to do with perpetuating the underexposure of African stories. And I accept and welcome your point of having an updated article beforehand, and I thank you for your corrections. El_C 21:53, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

He's back!

Hey El C, remember the anti-Armenian vandal 193.140.108.152? I just found out yesterday that apprently, he's back (Under a different IP). Can you block him when he starts up again? Thanks. —Khoikhoi 22:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Somewhat. Keep me posted about any transgressions. Regards, El_C 23:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment requested

Hello El C. I'm wondering if you can check out the heading at the top of User talk:Anwar saadat please? He has been asked by myself and a few others to not make such specific comments. He seems to have been restricting himself to dose of Boothyism of late, but there are somewhat aggressive comments he adds also.Blnguyen | Have your say!!! 06:04, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. My impression is that it's a bit annoying in that it's not funny, though it tries to be funny by coming across as mockingly misleading and offensive against those under 18, virgins, and senior citizens with faint hearts. But mostly, it's just stupid, so I would'nt worry about it. Best, El_C 08:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

IAF replacement

I saw your comment on Danny's talk page. I whipped up image:IAF.png. How about using that instead? Raul654 22:29, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Raul! Looks good and works for me. See, this is the sort of help I would expect. I've written or translated close to 40 IDF-related articles in the last few weeks, including the 80% missing from {{Israel Defense Forces}}, and I sort of feel I've earned some leeway on really obvious things, like the IDF allowing fairuse. Even if that specific image somehow fell outside of fairuse, it's not like it seems likely the IDF would disallow usage of it, not to mention threat legal action over it. If anything, the IDF would thank me for doing what they have yet to do, update & better organize their site — in Hebrew, let alone English. But the Hebrew Misplaced Pages has done it (to varying degrees of comprehesibility and accuracy). So now I'm bringing that to onlined English-speaking people through en.wikipedia.org, and I'm not asking for praise or recognition, just less obstruction and more help. And I thank you again for yours. Best, El_C 22:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem. If you want any more issues, just drop me a line. Raul654 02:17, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Will do. Let's hope the IDF url will satisfy orphanbot as a fairuse rational, or else this conflict will resurface again. So long as I am not facing any further interaction with its owner, whatever problems become greatly minimized. El_C 08:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenian Genocide

Yeah, the user added all that stuff right before the page got protected (actually, come to think of it, that was the reason it got protected in the first place, because of an edit war over his edits). BTW, don't you think the caption "Armenian Genocide victims" might be a bit POV? I tracked down the source of the image to an extremely anti-Muslim and racist website (BibleProbe.com) It had the caption as:

Turkish soldiers proudly posing with bodies of their Christian victims. To these Muslims, the "Christians were like animals to be hunted."

Perhaps we could change it to something like:

Turkish soldiers posing with Armenian bodies.

What do you think? —Khoikhoi 01:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that if the picture depicts victims of what is conventionally understood as the Armenian Genocide, my caption is quite accurate and objective. It's not relevant how it's used elsewhere online, so long as we know its true origins. Is its source noted on that site? (I didn't look) El_C 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

There still is many issues to make of it NPOV I think, Francis presented some examples to be addressed before Karabekir made his edits, so there is still the issues addressed by Francis, the additions of Karabekir, and the introduction of POV by some apparently Armenian editors, more particularly in the lead, but I just checked and that seem to have been corrected(at least for the lead), but whatever or not the tag should stay, I don't know, I think I am to implicated to judge. El_C, I really think that two Administrators should follow that article and its talkpage, I am really losing control on this, and I know that a RfAr will not rule positvly for me on the bases of incivility and assume good faith policy, so maybe it is not wise for now, but everything not related to the article should simply be removed. Regards. Oh and, thanks for the unblock. Fad (ix) 02:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to explain your take of it for me. Oh, and as for the unblocking, it's my pleasure. El_C 02:15, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

El C, I see what you're saying now. No, I didn't see a source either. —Khoikhoi 04:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

dear EL C as you said the picture is lacking credibility and i am ready to prove that it is not what it is said to be. But I want your guarante that after I show its doubfull nature you will back me up so that it will be removed. because many people there see it as a war and never come to an agreement in anything despite evidence.neurobio 20:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Proving is a strong word, I won't have any problem with removing it, since I removed it myself in the past because it was not appopriate and that its sources is unclear. There was a more appopriate picture which Coolcat kept adding the delete tag to, and which was deleted while I was out from Misplaced Pages. El_C, could you undelete it? That picture was sourced and there was no copyright on it, a picture taken in late 1910s by the Russian's is not copyrighted. Also, as Raffi said, he had an answer from the organization who hold the copyright of Wegner pictures, the organization is permitting Misplaced Pages to have them here. And such pictures are at least confirmed and we know who took the pictures, while the picture on the lead in my opinion is of duvious source. Fad (ix) 22:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Any helps into figuring out & demonstrating the picture's true origins will be greatly appreciated. El_C 22:53, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

it is good to see that you already know they are not Turkish soldiers. I said I am ready to prove it is not what it is said to be. in many sites it is presented as Turkish soldiers posing in front of their victims but obviously these are Russian soldiers. all pictures except Wegner are doubtfull. Actually I am totaly agains putting any pictures.neurobio 22:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Cent

Hello, I see you've recently edited {{cent}}. This is quite all right and I encourage you to help keep it current. But please don't forget to log your changes at Misplaced Pages:Centralized discussion/Template log. This will help us stay all on the same page -- no pun intended. Thank you. John Reid 21:42, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Are there instructions to do so anywhere? (if so, I overlooked these) Regards, El_C 21:48, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

IDF images

Hello. Sorry, but it was impossible for me to know about the specific circumstances regarding IDF images. You quote their web site, "The user may make 'fair use' of the protected material as set out under the law." However, a few sentences later, it says clearly, "Subject to the law of copyright, User may not copy, redistribute, retransmit or publish protected material, without the prior written consent of the IDF." To save yourself this hassle, you should probably create a fair use image tag for IDF images, or have some boilerplate fair use rationale text saved in a text file that you can just copy and paste when the images are uploaded. Regards, howcheng {chat} 06:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Greetings. I had no such expectation on your part. Just asking you to let me know when you encounter those images/url from now on, until someone creates the template (the Hebrew wiki already has one, designed as a single article fu, whose contents I'm happy to translate). As for the sentence which follows The user may make "fair use" of the protected material..., that obviously dosen't apply to fair use usage (or why would allowing fair use be mentioned prior? unlikely for mere kicks, I assure you!). Regards, El_C 07:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Linkspam again

Religion_in_the_United_Kingdom HG has begun adding links again after you removed protect tag. I have removed some. What to do about this ? Its better suited in Hinduism_in_the_United_Kingdom. Plus that is a Vishnu temple (not Shiva temple) patronised by north Indians only (not south Indians). So it misrpresents facts. Anyway the same image is found in another related article. Anwar 21:52, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please link individual diffs (and other links) as per my instructions. Where is the evidence for the misrepresentation? Where is the evidence for the links addition. The arrangment was for you to provide these for me. Please do so, then I'll look at it. El_C 02:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

IET again

HG is again linking to Indian POV which I removed like this. Also, in some cases, his links don't seem to even support his wild conspiracy theories (like annihilating Hinduism). Anwar 22:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It is a fair request. He should be able to provide evidence of statements to that effect, including precise quotations. El_C 02:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. I have edited it now to present point clearly based on ref. - Holy Ganga 10:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Anwar's attempt

Hello EI_C,

• I think this is enough to proove that Anwar's edit's are based on his personal ideology against Hinduism. He has even removed BBC citation for the Picture with a reason remove more. Is it wrong to provide refrences for the claims made in the article? He was asking for citations in article "Islamist extremist terrorism" by calling it conspiracy (which have been provided now!) but at the same time he removed BBC citation in this article without any reason.

• I'm not sure what the WP:MoS says about references in an image caption, actually. El_C 08:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• In an article on religion in uk, is it wrong to provide just 1 link which is giving information of 144 religious places of a Hinduism. . He is not ready to tolerate even 2 links of Hinduism in that article most probably because they were added by me and they are related with Hinduism. This link is equal to many links put together because it is not only giving information about minority religion, it's 144 major centers in UK but also about largest temple of europe in UK. Now, religion in uk also means minority religion in Uk and for that just 2 links are not too much. Only he has the problem with it. If you can't link more than one link (even if it is logical and important), then we should remove separate religious sections from External links. Regards, - Holy Ganga 10:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• While I reiterate that it isn't linkspam, Islam has three times more adherents, so why should it only have one link, he could argue. A list of Hindu temples might be better suited to Hinduism in the United Kingdom, he may also argue. This is a legitimate content argument, which I since pointed out to him needs to be phrased less aggressively. Let's hope he took it to heart. El_C 08:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• He once again reverted this by giving illogical reasons. I don't understand how exactly this constitutes Indian POV, or what the problem with the links is. Some another admin has already reverted his edits with this reason. TimesofIndia and Yahoo are one of the reputed news sites and i don't understand whats Anwar's problem? - Holy Ganga 11:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• That indeed appears to be problematic, since he removed cited material. We'll see what he says. El_C 08:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Pontian Greek Genocide

Hi El_C, if everything is ok, could you please have a look at the talk page of this article. I have tried to get another admin involved but little has been achieved. I have argued the title is a Greek pov, and there is no academic merit for it, but i am facing the usual nationalist rhetoric of attempting to "cover up another Turkish genocide" etc. Any involvement would be appreciated. --A.Garnet 14:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, A.Garnet. I will try to give it (at least a preliminary) look this weekend, hopefuly. Regards, El_C 23:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A request

Hello El C,

I have a request. Could you please have a look at Dhimmi#Some_evidences_that_the_article_is_still_disputed. The question is whether "Jewish Encyclopedia" could be cited in wikipedia (Pecher argues that it is outdated). Your input is appreciated. Thanks,--Aminz 09:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Certainly, I don't believe it's so black & white (unlike a certain kitty who we love); I'm sure it can be cited for some purposes while it can be seen as outdated for others. What is specifically disputed as outdated on JE's part? Regards, El_C 09:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much El C. The story is that on Dhimmi article, Pecher thinks the article is both factual and neutral and wants to remove the disputed tags. However several arguments (at Dhimmi) has been made to show the article is not undisputed (using JE). Pecher believes JE is outdated and can not be cited in wikipedia. So, all those arguments simply go away. My idea was to request some admins for comments on reliability of JE. I will appreciate your input. Best wishes, --Aminz 10:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Sure. It appears likely that some portions of it could be cited (i.e. those which do not conflict with today's scholarship, 100 years later). El_C 10:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

El C, Pecher is simply rejecting all passages cited from JE (arguing that they are all out-dated). For example, he thinks all conversions to Islam were either forced or because of the situation of Dhimmi's in Muslim lands (something clearly contradicted by JE, but he thinks it is outdated!). --Aminz 18:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

While the JE could be cited for the more obvious expressions of scholarly consensus, if that consensus is disputed (i.e. not deemed obvious), we turn to the modern historiography. If the depiction for the pattern of these conversions is seen to follow the type of historical trends mentioned by the JE, it is not unreasonable to expect modern confirmation or lack thereof. El_C 20:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

193.255.230.227 (talk · contribs)

Hi El C,

You told me to inform you of any updates about this user—since the last time I talked with you they've changed the number of Greeks in Turkey from 20,000 to 2,000 without citing their sources, and also removed info w/o any explanation from the Armenians in Turkey article. Could you please talk to them? They're showing no desire to stop. Thanks. —Khoikhoi 06:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I'll drop the user a note. Regards, El_C 07:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks El C. Are you starting to remember him/her now? —Khoikhoi 08:05, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Not at all, sorry. I notice from the above I've warned the user against inserting fabrications and that I ended up blocking him/her for it, but I do not recall those events taking place. At least we know that you didn't hallucinate it! El_C 08:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That's always good to know. ;) —Khoikhoi 08:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Did I ever tell you about the dreams where my cat speaks to me...? (Dreams!) El_C 08:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

No...do tell! —Khoikhoi 08:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I love them, but they sort of freak me out (he is a feline, after all!). El_C 08:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Man, you're gonna have to tell me tomorrow, I gotta get some sleep. Ciao! —Khoikhoi 08:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That's actually the end of the story. :) Sweet dreams! El_C 08:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Nagorno-Karabakh

Hi. Would you mind to have a look at Nagorno-Karabakh? Edit war over the intro of that article resumed after a certain editor returned after the long absence. Maybe you can help to resolve the dispute again. Regards, Grandmaster 10:20, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I have no memory of that editor. Will try to do so soon. I'm supposed to look into Pontian Greek Genocide this weekend, but I've yet to do so (I'm a bit behind on things). Perhaps you could also have a look there if you get a chance. Regards, El_C 10:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Unfortunately I'm not really knowledgeable on Pontian Greek subject, so I can’t be much of help. Regards, Grandmaster 10:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Nor am I. Misadventures undoubtedly will ensue. El_C 10:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Might be. I just don't know why every mass killing or deportation is called a genocide nowadays? The same in our region. Grandmaster 10:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

El_C, you are welcome to look at the article, I just would like to clarify something. I am sorry for modifying an edit made by you a few months ago, but I truly saw a particular phrasing troublesome for NPOV reasons. I fully explained my change in the talk page, and it was agreed to by administrators and other editors on the article. User Grandmaster, currently blocked for 3RR violation, started reverting my and others' edits without as much as a discussion or an edit summary. The current version is actually supported by most editors active on the article, including the moderators. It is neutral and factual. Yet Grandmaster's uncompromising stance has locked any progress on the article. As before, he refuses to discuss, and makes wholesale reverts as a first resort. I and others have made numerous compromises, and we are very close to a neutral permanent solution, the only obstacle honestly being his inflexibility.--TigranTheGreat 12:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

BoNM

P.S. I usually put awards on users' pages, but your user page is structured in a way which would make it awkward. In any case, thanks for your work and please keep adding information to IDF articles :) -- Ynhockey 15:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

poetry

Why should poetry not be a slogan?

Why should poetry not be

biased

when life is not at all itself

For life's sake,

I expect a poem to be

a slogan

a dagger

a fist

and a bullet if necessary

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