Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:47, 18 June 2006

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Archives:

• Archive1,
• Archive2,
• Archive3 (?? - 15:23, 27 December 2005)
• Archive4 (15:23, 27 December 2005 - 20:04, 12 January 2006)
• Archive5 (20:04, 12 January 2006 - 11:37, 26 January 2006)
• Archive6 (11:37, 26 January 2006 - 18:59, 21 February 2006)
• Archive7 (18:59, 21 February 2006 - 23:51, 10 June 2006)

Arguments

You clearly don't understand the concept of Misplaced Pages and WP:NPOV. Familiarize yourself with TRNC, Abkhazia or South Ossetia.--Eupator 23:59, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

So should you -- let's compare all those pages against NK and see. --AdilBaguirov 00:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It already has been compared, revert war stopped over this and concessions were done. Fad (ix) 00:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not the mouthpiece of the US

They are no more important than anyone else. Please stop spamming the talk page. - FrancisTyers · 23:35, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Worse is, he's stating things that we already agree with, and state quite prominently in the article. In the process, he is essentially making us argue against ourselves, as we argue with him. He needs to calm down and pay attention to us and the article, I don't think he has really read it. --Golbez 23:45, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, the page was getting way too long, and spamming all of that wasn't helping, so I archived. Now, can you do as Golbez says and bring up some specific complaints. This bull in a china shop approach will not get you very far. - FrancisTyers · 23:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Interesting -- when this obvious truth about military occupation of a legitimate part of Azerbaijan is simply stated, then one is requesting proof; yet once abundant proof is presented, it is suddenly gets labeled "spamming" and "Misplaced Pages is not the mouthpieece of the US". By the way, it has not only statements from US gov, but also various organizations and the UN rep.

But you don't undersatand, Adil. Not in the least - We agree with every one of the comments. In essence, you were flooding the talk page with no real reason but to make a point which you have not yet stated. --Golbez 00:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The page I've read, and re-read, and read again very carefully, and stated several time that in its present form it is clearly an Armenian POV. The intro paragraph absolutely must say while the Armenian POV is that NK declared independence and styled itself as "NKR", the international community rejects it, considers NK as a legitimate and recognized part of Azerbaijan that is under military occupation. We cannot talk about "independence" in the intro (and thus presenting only the Armenian POV, which is only one out of three parties, the others being Azerbaijan itself and the international community), and then have this clarified somewhere down the text.

That's not the Armenian POV, it's simple fact - NK declared independence. I can declare independence, and it's a fact - not that I AM independent, but merely that I declared. We also point out that it's unrecognized by everyone. In other words, every single complaint you have does not exist. --Golbez 00:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Moreover, if this would have been the case, then why remove (!) my quotes, as opposed to put them in the International status or History or Current Situation part?

Thus, what is the solution? Once again, the main problems are the intro paragraph, which is Armenian POV, and the detailed map of NK. I have given my suggested langauge for the intro already, and what we can do about the map. --AdilBaguirov 23:57, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please state specific complaints, rather than saying "the intro paragraph" and "the detailed map". Mention specific issues with these, please. Point out a sentence or an aspect of the map you disagree with. Specifics, please. I don't want your suggestions - I want your complaints. Pick a sentence or paragraph, and tell us what you think is wrong with it. Then we will respond. It's called discussion, something which you have, thus far, somewhat tried to muscle out of the talk page. --Golbez 00:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Francis, since when did extensive research into a relevant topic (which is view on NK by neutral sources) on the NK page become "spamming"? Guys, let's be a little more respectful here and not throw accusations against people who at worst can be accused of being too detail-oriented and too comprehensive. --AdilBaguirov 00:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, but the talk page was getting long, and unilaterally copy-pasting a lot of quotes was not called for or condusive to a reasonable discussion.

Now then, you say that The intro paragraph absolutely must say while the Armenian POV is that NK declared independence and styled itself as "NKR", the international community rejects it, — the intro does state that. And I quote "The NKR's sovereign status is not recognized by any country or international organization in the world.". - FrancisTyers · 00:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

What I meant is this - the very first sentence is important and sets the tone of the page. Currently, it says: "Nagorno-Karabakh is a region of Azerbaijan that has declared itself independent as the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh (NKR)."

What are the problems? 1) Any and every mention of "NKR" must be preceeded by "so-called", "unrecognized" or "self-styled" -- this was discussed at length and I've shown that it's how all authoritative sources approach this.

2) The first sentence is clearly an Armenian POV, because it doesn't talk of occupation, but of "independence" -- as if it was legitimate and non-violent.

I prefer the injection of the wording of CIA into that intro line: "Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan".

See the Abkhazia intro page, which is much better worded and factual: "It is a de jure autonomous republic within Georgia, but is de facto independent of Georgia, although not recognized as such internationally."

Even better South Ossetia: "Samkhret Oseti (unofficial) is a self-proclaimed (de facto) republic within Georgia. Although this former Soviet autonomous oblast (region) has declared its independence and is in control of significant part of the region, its separation from Georgia has not been recognized by any other country and is officially regarded part of the Georgian region (mkhare) of Shida Kartli. Georgia itself refuses to recognise South Ossetia as a distinct entity; the government calls it by the medieval name of Samachablo or, more recently, Tskhinvali region (after the republic's capital)."

Here's Transnistria, which is somewhat unscholarly in terms of wording, but once again makes clear that the declaration of independence is just a smoke-screen for meddling into internal affairs by a third country: "The unrecognised state has been de facto independent since September 2, 1990, when it made a declaration of independence from Moldova and, aided by contingents of Russian, Cossack and Ukrainian volunteers, and the 14th Russian (formerly Soviet) Army, successfully defeated Moldovan forces, in the War of Transnistria. While a ceasefire has held since 1992, the Council of Europe recognises Transnistria as a "frozen conflict" region. The sovereignty of Transnistria is an issue of contention. Transnistria continues to claim independence and maintains sovereignty over its territory with the assistance of Russian forces."

Hence, as we can see, NK page stands out as an example of Armenian POV, unprecedented among other similar pages at Wiki -- or any other authoritative source. --AdilBaguirov 09:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, in answer to your objections:

1. No. This just isn't going to happen.
2. We aren't going to include "CIA wording".

Did you read the archives yet? There was a lengthy discussion over whether to include de jure in the lead. Eventually (if I remember correctly) insufficient sources were given for this being the case, which is why we mention, "Under the Soviet Union, it was part of the Azerbaijan SSR as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast". This is not a call for you to give sources, but to read the archives.

You say:

The first sentence is clearly an Armenian POV, because it doesn't talk of occupation, but of "independence" -- as if it was legitimate and non-violent.

The intro says:

"Nagorno-Karabakh is presently under Armenian military control, as are areas of Azerbaijan between Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh, as a result of the war that took place between both countries in the aftermath of the dissolution of the USSR."

I don't think anyone will be confused as to the nature of the independence. It clearly states that a war took place and that NK is currently under Armenian military control. - FrancisTyers · 10:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Francis, I am surprized by this insistence that all is OK with the NK page, when it is clearly out of line with other similar pages such as Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, etc.

I want NK page to consistent with Abkhazia's - a fair and legitimate request, which is beneficial for an encyclopedia such as Misplaced Pages. Note once again how many time Abkhazia's page stresses smth which you guys are making such a big problem about:

"Abkhazia ... is a self-proclaimed republic of 8,600 km² (3,300 sq.mi.) in the Caucasus. It is a de jure autonomous republic within Georgia, but is de facto independent of Georgia, although not recognized as such internationally.

Political status International organizations (UN, OSCE, Council of the European Union, etc) recognize Abkhazia as part of Georgia and are urging both sides to settle the conflict through peaceful means. However, the Abkhaz de facto separatist government considers Abkhazia a sovereign country.

Meanwhile the Russian State Duma is looking for legal ways to incorporate this region into the Russian Federation, while Russian media produce numerous materials in support of separatist rule. During the war, Russian authorities have contributed tremendously by supplying military and financial aid to the separatist side. Since the beginning of the war, Russia has politically and militarily contributed in the creation of the separatist movement in Abkhazia. Today, Russia still maintains a strong political and military influence over the de facto rule in Abkhazia."

I have to say, Abkhazia's page is well-written and bravo to its editors.

If we still don't agree, let's request addition help, mediation - I feel my position is completely justified and solid, I am not pushing any POV or introducing any original research, instead, I am trying to rid NK page of Armenian POV and standartize it, make it consistent with other pages.

The reason I emphasized CIA, US Presidential Determination, etc., quotes are not necessarily for inclusion as is, but as an example of wording used. Best, --AdilBaguirov 11:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Check out the Somaliland page. - FrancisTyers · 12:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Somaliland page - It says "unrecognized" right in front of the the "Republic", 2) this republic is at least recognized by Ethiopia, and 3) Somali is a failed state, that's it classification in political science and international relations. And of course, the only closes conflicts to that of NK are other post-Soviet conflicts -- with the one's in the Caucasus being the closest, that is Abkhazia and South Ossetia. This too is well acknowledged and recognized, as many authors review all of them in one pack as "post-Soviet conflicts". That's why I insist on having NK page be rendered consistently with other similar conflict zones pages (of course, as I've said many times, NK is still unique and different from all, but at least these are the closest). --AdilBaguirov 18:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro

I've retasked the intro, only by moving information around. Lemme know what you think. --Golbez 20:09, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

It's indeed better, thanks. You'll hate me more, though, but I still would like to see "self-styled" (or so-called) preceed each mentioning of "NKR", mention the local Armenian population as separatist (as in Georgia's pages (Abkhazia, S.Ossetia)) and instead of "control" name is how it is in reality - occupation. This is not going to lengthen the intro - just substituting some words and rearranging the order of others. Here's an example:

Nagorno-Karabakh is a region of Azerbaijan in the South Caucasus, about 270 kilometres (170 miles) west of the Azerbaijani capital of Baku, and very near the border with Armenia. The separatist predominantly Armenian population declared independence from Azerbaijan as the self-styled Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh (NKR) on December 10, 1991, though it remains unrecognized by any other country or international organization, including Armenia. The region has been a source of dispute between Armenia and Azerbaijan since the final years of the Soviet Union (USSR). Nagorno-Karabakh, as well as areas of Azerbaijan between it and Armenia, are presently under Armenian military occupation as a result of the war that took place between the countries in the aftermath of the dissolution of the USSR. Under the Soviet Union, it was part of the Azerbaijan SSR as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast. --AdilBaguirov 20:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to say no to the request to add "self-styled" everywhere, as it's beating the reader in the head with a hammer. We can trust the audience to understand that when you declare independence but aren't recognized, pretty much everything you do is unilateral. As for "separatist", that much is obvious - they separated, or at least are trying to. Just because something is done on Abkhazia and S. Ossetia doesn't mean it's right. And as for "control vs occupation", I agree that "control" is more NPOV, and the local population in charge of NK would say it's control, not occupation. However, regions like Lachin, Agdam, et.al. would be more likely to say occupation. However, that's a different, more complex issue. --Golbez 20:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Consistency is a valid concept and should be applied thoroughly. Having "self-styled" preceed "nKR" at least in half of the occassions, definitely in each section at least once, is just that -- consistent with how other similar pages are presented. Second, having "occupied" instead of "control" is actully less POV because that's what's used by everyone in the world. "Control" is the word insisted by Armenian POV, whilst occupation is used by CIA, PACE, UN, State Dept, US President, OIC, etc. I know your seeming disdain for international law and norms, but this is not the time or occassion to disagree with such terminology. Third, nothing is "obvious" - this is an encyclopedia, and accurate terminology should be used. If all is obvious, then why need an article at all? "Separatist" is such official and legal terminology and used in other similar cases, should definitely be used in conjuction to NK page as once again, it is used by the intl. community. --AdilBaguirov 21:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not accurate, neither self styled, self styled might suppose that there was no any region of Nagorno Karabakh and was carved by those that want separation, but this is unclear as Nagorno Karabakh had a statut in the Soviet Union even if as part of Azerbaijan. Also, the word occupied is not more NPOV, to the contrary, the population can not occupy itself, and the word occupation is generally used for those lands outside of Nagorno Karabakh kept by the Armenian army. Fad (ix) 18:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, no, the only objective way is by adhering to what the world community and independent sources say, and they call everything by its own names: occupation, instead of some vague and sounding voluntary and non-violent "control". By reversing your logic, Karabakh region's population, which was also Azerbaijani, could not have agreed to any foreign "control", could not have agreed to Khojaly massacre, could not have agreed to ethnic cleansing and occupation -- sorry, "control" -- of Lachin, Kelbajar, Aghdam, Fuzuli, Jebrayil, Zangelan and other regions outside of former NKAO (which was abolished by sovereign Azerbaijan in Nov 1991 -- fully in accordance with the laws of the time). 600,000 Azerbaijani IDPs (doesn't incl. 200,000 refugees from Azerbaijan) could not have agreed to such a "control". Thus, indeed, just as population cannot occupy itself, it cannot ethnically cleanse itself, massacre itself and make itself refugees/displaced for the past 12+ years. Thus, consistent with international practice and laws, the so-called "NKR" is a self-styled, unrecognized entity, and the 16% of Azerbaijan, which includes NK region, is occupied by Armenian forces. --AdilBaguirov 20:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Totally unrelated to my answer. The fact of the matter is, that people refer to occupied for what is not Nagorno Karabakh. Control is a good term, you don't deny they control it. Do you? On the other hand, occupied in implication with Karabakh is full of insinuations. And no, most international sources don't speak of Kazrabakh as occupied but rather what is not Karabakh as occupied. Fad (ix) 20:49, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What? I didn't really understand anything in the above. Please re-read all of the above as well as archives, which have all the official statements about occupation of Karabakh. --AdilBaguirov 04:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We talked about it in the archives, occupied is not used for Karabakh by most, and no one deny that Armenians control Karabakh. So, at least do you understand that? Fad (ix) 17:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To clarify:

• Nagorno-Karabakh cannot occupy itself. Therefore, it is not occupied by separatists from Nagorno-Karabakh.
• Is Nagorno-Karabakh occupied by the Armenian army? Those in Nagorno-Karabakh would likely say no, since they are friendly with the Armenian army. It may be controlled by it, however.
• Are the surrounding rayons of Azerbaijan occupied by the Armenian army and/or Karabakh separatists? *Yes*, those regions did not declare independence nor are they, to my knowledge, friendly to Armenia, though some do have a sizable Armenian population. They are, de facto and de jure, part of Azerbaijan, yet occupied by a foreign army.

Is any of this incorrect? --Golbez 18:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No, none of this is correct and it is all POV reflecting the opinion from Armenia. The international community (chiefly UN, as well as OSCE, EU/PACE/EC, OIC, and their member states, such as USA) clearly defined what is occupation, and it has also clearly defined what are NK and 7 other regions of Azebaijan, which together constitute 16% of Azerbaijan. These lands, including NK, are occupied by Armenian forces, which includes both Republic of Armenia forces and local separatists. Myself and other's have brought countless quotes and references, all verifyable --to the point that I was even accused of "spamming" (!) despite it all being 100% relevant and to the point.

Furthermore, the statement "NK cannot occupy itself", in addition to the above point, contradicts not only international law, but defies logic -- first, because "NK", as well as 7 regions (which had 99% Azerbaijani and Kurdish populations, no "sizeable Armenian population") had Azerbaijani population as well -- which certainly didn't want to be ethnically cleansed, killed and expelled from their homes, and second, because then why stop at such a statement, why not say that separatists do no exist, since Armenians of NK do not view themselves as separatists, and of course, there is no such thing as "terrorists", since neither ASALA members nor Osama Bin Laden consider themselves "terrorists", and Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc., were certainly then no monsters, because they obviously didn't consider themselves as such -- and neither did majority of their popoulation at the time. Hence, with such an approach, let's revise all pages at Misplaced Pages and make them reflect this newly found truth.

Just as population cannot occupy itself, it cannot ethnically cleanse itself, massacre itself and make itself refugees/displaced for the past 12+ years. Thus, consistent with international practice and laws, the so-called "NKR" is a self-styled, unrecognized entity, and the 16% of Azerbaijan, which includes NK region, is occupied by Armenian forces.

All pages on unrecognized, conflict zones such as NK have to be consistent and adhere to one standard, not double standards. NK page must be consistent with Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Transdnistria pages, and that means clearly showing NK, along with 7 other regions, as de jure part of Azerbaijan that are occupied by Armenian forces, and that "NKR" is a self-styled, unrecognized regime. --AdilBaguirov 21:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, I direct you to this map from the US Central Intelligence Agency, which clearly points out an Armenian majority in Karabakh, Lachin, the western half of Agdam, and some other nearby areas. It's dated 1995.

Also, lookie here: It's a map of Karabakh. By the US Central Intelligence Agency, from 1993. What's the city name it uses for that big city in the middle of Karabakh? So much for "internationally recognized name". --Golbez 21:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

golbez, it's surprizing to see an admin act like this. That's unfortunate. Since you like CIA and those online maps, then perhaps you should look not at early 1990s maps, when nothing was updated yet and still reflected Soviet-era names, but at newer ones. If we go to the site you went to for maps, http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/azerbaijan.html, and look at the newer maps produced by CIA, such as http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/azerbaijan_pol_2004.jpg, or http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/azerbaijan_rel_2004.jpg (or from their own website, which you for some reason ignore: http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/aj.html), you will see only Khankendi (Xankandi), Shusha, Xocavand.

Fair enough, though the CIA has not seen fit to grace us with an updated map of Nagorno-Karabakh. --Golbez 22:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the map on their page says it all clearly: http://cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/aj.html --AdilBaguirov 08:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile, the ethno-linguist map is not making any relevant points -- it shows that there are no Georgian's in Abkhazia too, whilst there still are. Meanwhile, in NK and other occupied regions like Lachin and Kelbajar, there are no Azerbaijanis left - but there are indeed Armenian settlers, including from the Middle east -- it's documented by the US State Dept and OSCE mission, I have the reports and links, if needed.

At no point does the map say "no Georgians" or "no Azerbaijanis" - it's pointing the majority, not the totality. Your argument here borders on a logical fallacy. --Golbez 22:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This is funny -- what Azerbaijani minority is there in Lachin and Kelbajar, not to mention NK proper? There are no Azerbaijanis left there, along with other regions. Meanwhile, the main fallacy of your resistance to change is not even that, but fact that you tried to use this irrelevant, outdated map to support, somehow, your position of not changing or procrastinating, on the map of NK and table and other relevant aspects of NK page. Even though I proved long ago that there is only one right point of view, and that's the NPOV of UN, US State Dept., PACE, OIC, etc., I then, for the sake of showing you that your resistance is only worsening things and is a Pandorra box, argued that since you can use that map to justify only Armenian names for toponyms on the NK map, then you have to use the same standard on Iran map and Daghestan map, where now Azerbaijanis are majority in those relevant areas, etc. Thus, as you can see, it's the map you brought in does not make your case -- and nothing can, as it's pretty black and white on this issue. --AdilBaguirov 08:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You delude yourself, sir. I did not use the map to attempt to back up everything - I was pointing out an error in a statement you made. Nothing more. Nothing less. STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. And I await for when Azeris declare independence from Iran. --Golbez 08:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

What error in my statement do you talk about man? What error? I did not make any errors -- please show it to me! I take fully responsibility for my statements -- and am not afraid of using my real name for additional credibility -- and while all can make mistakes, I never did any here, I obviously could have never claimed anything as ludocrious as 'there is an Azerbaijani majority in occupied Azerbaijani districts of Lachin, Kelbajar, NK, etc"! So what are you talking about? --AdilBaguirov 08:24, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: "first, because "NK", as well as 7 regions (which had 99% Azerbaijani and Kurdish populations, no "sizeable Armenian population") had Azerbaijani population as well". I took this as you saying that Nagorno-Karabakh and some of the surrounding regions, including Lachin, were 99% Azeri or Kurdish. I simply posted the map to show you that the CIA says they were predominantly Armenian. Period. End of story. That is all. --Golbez 08:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And where is an error in my statement? I was absolutely right, even though used 99% figuratively, w/o checking/citing any sources. Before the war, that was pretty much the ratio! According to the 1989 census, Azerbaijanis were 96 per cent in Kelbajar, 89.9 per cent in Lachin, 99.6 per cent in Jebrail, 99.4 per cent in Kubatly, 99.2 per cent in Fizuli and 99.5 per cent in Agdam. Armenians were registered in Zangelan (0.4 per cent), and in Kubatly, Fizuli and Agdam (all 0.1 per cent). Other population included primarily the Kurds and Russians. From: Ethnic Composition of the Population of the Azerbaijan SSR (according to the USSR census of the population of 1989), Baku, 1990, pp. 7-8. Thus, once again, there is absolutely no mistake on my part -- and I cannot make a mistake so gross, I've been writing and publishing about this matter for over a decade now, and know this subject pretty well. --AdilBaguirov 08:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, I direct you to this map from the US Central Intelligence Agency, which clearly points out an Armenian majority in Karabakh, Lachin, the western half of Agdam, and some other nearby areas. It's dated 1995.

There are also census data from 1989 and 1979 and all other decades, showing how many Armenians lived in Lachin and Kelbajar and other regions. So not very clear what you mean by showing this ethnolinguistic map - what's the point? Note how many Azerbaijanis live in Daghestan and Iran -- should we append them to Azerbaijan then?

Now you've definitely fallen into logical fallacy, and I see no further reason to read this paragraph. I have no preference whether or not Lachin or Karabakh become part of Armenia, independent, or part of Azerbaijan, so please stop trying to make a fight out of this. I simply don't care either way. --Golbez 22:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No, sorry, it's not me in logical fallacy :) You didn't respond - it was not about Armenian population, but about your logic of using that irrelevant, outdated map, and double standards. Meanwhile, once again, whether you personally care either way is not the point - don't you understand that this is not about you, or me for that matter, but about truth, verifiability, objectivity and credibility, which are all things we all care about at Wiki? Stop being such a primadonna man, this is not about you, this is about NPOV. --AdilBaguirov 08:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

There are enough separatists and ultra-nationalists everywhere to justify such an action if we follow your logic. But also, why are you so selective -- not only choose early, 1992-93 maps, but also ignore that it says Xankandi first and Stepanakert in parenthesis, like I've been requesting from day one? Also, here is the an official and authoritative map -- done by the UN: http://www.un.org/Depts/Cartographic/map/profile/azerbaij.pdf All maps must take this map into full account. --AdilBaguirov 22:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The UN does not control me, nor does it control Misplaced Pages. Also, heh, did you notice the disclaimer? "The boundaries and names shown and the designations used on this map do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the United Nations." "International recongition" argument officially killed. Move on to another one, please. --Golbez 22:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, you are misrepresenting me. The first map only mentioned Stepanakert; the second map did mention Khankendi first, but I was not citing the map for the name, but merely to point out that Karabakh and the neighboring regions have an Armenian majority. As for there not being an updated ethnic map of the region, blame the CIA, not me. If you have a more up-to-date one, please link it. --Golbez 22:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I am not misrepresenting anyone. Anyone who claims such things should at least try to present evidence of misrepresentation. Second, there can be no double standards, you can't pick and choose what suits your purpose in any one map. Third, UN "controls" all of us through various laws and treaties they pass/sign, and financially, as you, like all other US taxpayers and taxpayers from 191 nation, including Azerbaijan, fund it, without being asked if you like that or not. Fourth, once more, this is not about you, and hence, whether or not UN controls you is irrelevant. UN is a authoritative and objective point of reference, NPOV. Fifth, the disclaimer UN maps has, is not present on most other maps, and wherever present, is in different form. Sixth, none of your maps have any disclaimer of this sort -- had you have them, I'd probably never bothered to write and object, but now that I see this POV, I reject it and will do so all the time. Seventh, the disclaimer can be take both ways -- do not imply official endorsement or acceptance by UN can mean both "we indeed do not endorse/accept" and "we do indeed endrose/accept". Seventh, take a look at the UN Security Council resolutions, statements by its chairman, resolutions of the General Assembly, and it will become very clear, very quickly that UN does in fact recognize both the correct spelling of names and the belonging of them to Azerbaijan. Finally, same disclaimer is on the map of Armenia -- whilst so-called "NKR" doesn't even have a map --AdilBaguirov 08:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Return

"...clearly points out an Armenian majority in Karabakh, Lachin, the western half of Agdam, and some other nearby areas. It's dated 1995". Golbez, the fact it has Armenian population in fact shows almost nothing. The majority doesn't always prove anything. Although 1995 map is outdated a bit I think. --Brand спойт 23:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It was solely in response to Adil's statement of: "Furthermore, the statement "NK cannot occupy itself", in addition to the above point, contradicts not only international law, but defies logic -- first, because "NK", as well as 7 regions (which had 99% Azerbaijani and Kurdish populations, no "sizeable Armenian population") had Azerbaijani population as well" 99% Azeri and Kurdish? the CIA disagrees. That was my only point in posting that map. And I now see that I have been drawn into a completely irrelevant fight by Adil. He's good. --Golbez 23:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, but check out your another previous suggestion: "there are also census data from 1989 and 1979 and all other decades, showing how many Armenians lived in Lachin and Kelbajar and other regions. So not very clear what you mean by showing this ethnolinguistic map - what's the point? Note how many Azerbaijanis live in Daghestan and Iran -- should we append them to Azerbaijan then?" According to your logic Armenians should merge to Armenia Lachin and Kelbajar the way Azerbaijan should merge Daghestan and Iran :) --Brand спойт 23:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

You have me mixed up with someone else, I never said that. --Golbez 00:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That's right, I wrote this, and indeed, you are too selective in what you want and don't want to appear - if you think that your point with ethnolinguistic map is right, then you should modify apprpriately bunch of pages, such as the Iran page, the Daghestan-Russia page, etc -- because the ethno-linguist map you like shows Azerbaijanis in majority on many of those territories near the border with Azerbaijan. Also, since you like the map, you must adopt Khankendy as the main and primary name, and place Stepanakert either in parenthesis or remove completely. Still, you might want to look at the official census figures as well as reports from OSCE about the true size of population of Armenians on the occupied territories. But then again, introducing this map (and asking to ignore the name of the city but not something else) to support your resistance to change map, drop double standards and make the NK page in full accordance with Misplaced Pages's other similar pages, still doesn't make any sense, as neither does it prove much, nor is the status and spelling of Lachin and Kelbajar districts being discussed here. . --AdilBaguirov 07:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I will not have you put words in my mouth. You have twisted my statements, and it is pissing me off. What the hell do I have to modify in those other articles? The map is mine to change, I have made no recent resistance, I just happen to not have done it yet. It takes time. Oh, and what about the UN map saying they have no opinion on the names and borders? I must do nothing, I do not take orders from you, sir. --Golbez 08:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Are you joking? Where do I twist a single statement of yours? Perhaps you should take a hard look at your word usage since you are making a lot of baseless accusations. You brought in one irrelevant and outdated map, and one completely outdated one -- in at least the latter case you were selective, since you obviously knew about the newer map and plus it was available at the same site you got it from -- and of course, I've given you a bunch of them too. It's OK -- if it takes time to redo the map, then take down the current one. And this is not an "order" from "me" - this is the requirement of an encyclopedia which requires veracity and objectivity and NPOV. The current map is a total POV. --AdilBaguirov 08:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I explained the ethnolinguistic map issue further above in my last edit. My accusations are not baseless at all. And there is no newer map of Nagorno-Karabakh alone, only of the whole of Azerbaijan. I tire of this fight. I explained the ethnolinguistic map in my previous edit, please read the explanation and let me know if it is satisfactory. --Golbez 08:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I will just count this as a genuine misunderstanding, since the CIA map conveyed the wrong impression upon you and my post didn't explicitly say that the 99% estimate was from before the war. Let's forget it and leave this map out. There is a newer map, but I don't have it. I have non-CIA map about births and population decline, and that whole occupied area is marked in white, meaning it is pretty much empty -- which is true, the whole occupied area outside of NK proper has maybe about 20,000 Armenian resettlers. --AdilBaguirov 08:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

THANK YOU, that's what I've been trying to get us to do, to "forget it and leave the map out". --Golbez 16:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Intro

Golbez and Francis, I am apalled that you have been ok with the "NK is part of Azerbaijan" part. It's a blatant violation of NPOV--it's clearly a position, and we on Wiki never assert positions. It's even worse than the "de jure" version, which was actually proposed by Azeri users. They could never dream about this one. From what I read, this was a misguided attempt at compromise by admin EIC. It's still non-NPOV.--TigranTheGreat 07:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I love you too. Please don't get riled up over TWO WORDS like that. Jesuchristo. You are allowed to mention it to me first before spitting on my grave. --Golbez 07:52, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I will also note that neither of you are allowed to revert for about 23 hours. Good job! --Golbez 07:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not a position, it's a fact. NK is legally part of Azerbaijan. Your current edit is POV, and not neutral at all. Grandmaster 07:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, position of US State Dept, US President, UN, PACE, OIC, etc., are not POV, but NPOV. Plus it's consistent with other Wiki pages, such as on Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, etc. --AdilBaguirov 07:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The intro should be restored to say that NK is a region of Azerbaijan, as it legally is a region of Azerbaijan. THis fact is accepted by the international community, and it's not a position, but a fact, that it is recognized as part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 08:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Aw cmon, what's wrong with what I got there now? --Golbez 08:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It ignores the fact that it is de-jure part of Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 08:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

In what way? So you have to wait for the second sentence for that. --Golbez 08:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I like that better. Grandmaster 09:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the impression, never meant to spit. Just saying I was really surprised.

De jure is defective--Armenia never accepts NK as de jure part of Az. Plus, if we mention de jure, we need to mention de facto. I am against both--we mention something only once. It already states that noone recognizes NK's independence from Az. If this means de jure, just leave it at that.--TigranTheGreat 09:59, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

By the way, congrats on the Latino guy winning the gubernatorial elections in Cali (you are in Cali, right?).--TigranTheGreat 10:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

They had a primary for the democratic candidate; the election against Arnold Schwarzenegger is not until November. Assuming you mean California, Cali has no governor. --Golbez 16:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that NK is a region of Azerbaijan and is internationally recognized as such. It’s not an opinion, it is an undeniable fact. No one can say that NK has any status other than a region of Azerbaijan. So the intro should say that. Since Tigran resumed the edit war over the intro, I think we have every right to submit this dispute for arbitration. It has already passed all stages of dispute resolution, including mediation and RfC, so we should have no problem with presenting our case to arbcom. Grandmaster 16:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Arbitration is not for content matters; you would have to show a lengthy campaign of edit warring. --Golbez 17:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

You can go ahead and present it but I guarantee you it will be denied. Compared to TRNC this article is ridden with Azeri pov. The fact that it's recognized as part of Azerbaijan is not disputed but is secondary to it's de facto independence.--Eupator 16:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you cite a specific instance of "ridden with Azeri pov"? It's much easier if you do that, then make blanket assertions. --Golbez 17:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The intro is not fine and it's nothing like South Ossetia. It's de facto independance must be mentioned first. Azeri pov you say? "This was the name for the area from about 2nd century AD when it was part of Caucasian Albania to 13-14 centuries. Before that the name of Orkhistene was used in the area." Hogwash.--Eupator 17:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Pardon me for being an outsider, but could you explain what your quoted passage has to do with Azeri pov? --Golbez 20:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was sourced from the website of the Azeri Embassy. It was mentioned in the ref tags.--TigranTheGreat 20:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The source alone cannot make something POV, but yes, I did notice that. --Golbez 21:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, the POV aspect of the quote is this. The Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan has tried to make NK look as a completely historically Azeri land in a 2 step process: 1) Claim that it was part of Caucasian Albania for as many centuries as they can, and 2) Claim that Azeris are the modern Caucasian Albanians. The quote here is an instance of step 1)--even though it clearly contradicts contemporary Greek sources.--TigranTheGreat 07:19, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, "within Azerbaijan" is ambiguous--it can mean two things--1) within the borders of Az (your intended meaning), and 2) "belonging to Az." (as asserted by Wiki), which we should avoid. We should say "within the borders of Az."--it will clarify that we mean the 1st and not the 2nd.

South Oss. is different for 2 reasons. First, SO doesn't completely lie within borders of Georgie, whereas NK does--that was what you wanted to clarify in the beginning. Second, I agree with Eupator, SO article mentions "de facto." It counterbalances the "within Georgia." I am willing to make concession on "de facto"--it will draw unnecessary "de jure" objections--but the "within borders" needs to be specified. Note that I have already made concessions on "disputed region" and "enclave." I say, forget the Latin terms and let the reader decide--he will read the "not recognized by anyone" and will assume "de jure," and he will read "declared independence" and hopefully will assume "de facto."--TigranTheGreat 20:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Have we reached a concensus on the introduction? If we haven't then we should keep the tag on, if we have then I think we should take if off once and for all. Overall, it looks pretty neutral as it currently stands, though this is just my take (and perhaps, as an Armenian, I may be looking at it differently). -- Clevelander 20:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Greeks, Karabakh, and Orkhistene

Good catch, Eupator. Who has added that nonsense? Ptolomeus' 2nd AD map includes the region as part of Armenia. Plus, there is no source that "Artsakh" was used starting 2nd AD. Orkhistene was the Greek name, not the local name (which clearly is a variation of "Artsakh." The section needs to be changed.--TigranTheGreat 20:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As Mr. Tigran mentioned above the territory of Artsakh was part of the Armenian Kingdom until 428, that is undisputed. The border with C. Albania has always been the river Kura with the exception when C.Albania was subjugated by Tigranes the Great. See also: Paytakaran/Arshakuni Dynasty.--Eupator 20:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, all those allegations by Eupator and TigranTheGreat are very much disputed, and such claims as Artsakh being part of Armenia are not true, as neither is the border of Kura river -- you've been misreading Strabo, who clearly said that Kura: "the Cyrus through Iberia and Albania" (11.1.5), and again:

"Parts of the country are surrounded by the Caucasian Mountains; for branches of these mountains, as I said before,1 project towards the south; they are fruitful, comprise the whole of Iberia, and border on both Armenia and Colchis. In the middle is a plain intersected by rivers, the largest being the Cyrus. This river has its beginning in Armenia, flows immediately into the plain above-mentioned, receives both the Aragus, which flows from the Caucasus, and other streams, and empties through a narrow valley into Albania; and between the valley and Armenia it flows in great volume through plains that have exceedingly good pasture, receives still more rivers, among which are the Alazonius, Sandobanes, Rhoetaces, and Chanes, all navigable, and empties into the Caspian Sea. It was formerly called Corus." (11.3.2).

And again: "IV. The Albanians are more inclined to the shepherd's life than the Iberians and closer akin to the nomadic people, except that they are not ferocious; and for this reason they are only moderately warlike. They live between the Iberians and the Caspian Sea, their country bordering on the sea towards the east and on the country of the Iberians towards the west. Of the remaining sides the northern is protected by the Caucasian Mountains (for these mountains lie above the plains, though their parts next to the sea are generally called Ceraunian), whereas the southern side is formed by Armenia, which stretches alongside it; and much of Armenia consists of plains, though much of it is mountainous, like Cambysene, where the Armenians border on both the Iberians and the Albanians.

The Cyrus, which flows through Albania, and the other rivers by which it is supplied, contribute to the excellent qualities of the land; and yet they thrust back the sea, for the silt, being carried forward in great quantities, fills the channel, and consequently even the adjacent isles are joined to the mainland and form shoals that are uneven and difficult to avoid; and their unevenness is made worse by the backwash of the flood tides." (11.4.1, 11.4.2)

And another relevant passage on attempts of Roman conquests, which against Albania have failed: " The inhabitants of this country are unusually handsome and large. And they are frank in their dealings, and not mercenary;5 for they do not in general use coined money, nor do they know any number greater than one hundred, but carry on business by means of barter, and otherwise live an easy-going life. They are also unacquainted with accurate measures and weights, and they take no forethought for war or government or farming. But still they fight both on foot and on horseback, both in light armour and in full armour,6 like the Armenians.7

They send forth a greater army than that of the Iberians; for they equip sixty thousand infantry and twenty-two thousand8 horsemen, the number with which they risked their all against Pompey. Against outsiders the nomads join with the Albanians in war, just as they do with the Iberians, and for the same reasons; and besides, they often attack the people, and consequently prevent them from farming. The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates and large oblong shields, and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians. To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared. The pass from Iberia into Albania leads through Cambysene, a waterless and rugged country, to the Alazonius River. Both the people and their dogs are surpassingly fond of hunting, engaging in it not so much because of their skill in it as because of their love for it." (11.4.4, 11.4.5)

And of course Strabo himself used "Orchistene" ("and Orchistene, which last furnishes the most cavalry", 11.14.4), never "Artsakh" - hence I don't understand what is the "objection" to an Azerbaijani article which mentions it (and the reason for the reference was in response to someone's inclusion of "citation needed" next to Orchistene, which to me meant that the person didn't know about this forgotten name). By the way, Artsakh being used from 2nd century only was there before my edits - I've only added Orkhistene.

But for the borders of Caucasian Albania -- on the south going along Araxes, on the North - Derbend, on the East - Caspian sea and West -- Khnarakert castle (which is in present-day Qazax region of Azerbaijan, near Georgia and Armenia) borders see Movses Dasxuranci (Moisey Kagankatvatsi, Kalanketly) and Movses Khorenatsi (from Khorene), who say that very clearly, as well as a host of other authors. But of course the info from Dasxuranci/Kagankatvatsi is most reliable, as they (he) are Albanian historians. I can easily produce quotes in Russian and my translation into English.

Tigranes II never conquered C.Albania -- that is an insinuation of the Armenian scholars, and has been disproven already in the 1980s in the USSR. There is simply no evidence of that. Neither does Movses Dasxuranci mention that.

And I will look at those pages you've edited - thanks for pointing it out to me. --AdilBaguirov 00:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Who are you kidding? Oh and btw, Movses Dasxuranci was Armenian.

Strabo eh?

“ As we pass from Europe to Asia in our geography, the northern division is the first of the two divisions to which we come; and therefore we must begin with this. Of this division the first portion is that in the region of the Tanaпs River, which I have taken as the boundary between Europe and Asia. This portion forms, in a way, a peninsula, for it is surrounded on the west by the Tanaпs River and Lake Maeotis as far as the Bosporus7 and that part of the coast of the Euxine Sea which terminates at Colchis; and then on the north by the Ocean as far as the mouth of the Caspian Sea;8 and then on the east by this same sea as far as the boundary between Albania and Armenia, where empty the rivers Cyrus and Araxes, the Araxes flowing through Armenia and the Cyrus through Iberia and Albania;”

“ Further, the greater part of the remainder of Colchis is on the sea. Through it flows the Phasis, a large river having its sources in Armenia and receiving the waters of the Glaucus and the Hippus, which issue from the neighboring mountains.”

“…the Moschian country, in which is situated the temple,26 is divided into three parts: one part is held by the Colchians, another by the Iberians, and another by the Armenians. There is also a small city in Iberia, the city of Phrixus,27 the present Ideлssa, well fortified, on the confines of Colchis”

“ Parts of the country are surrounded by the Caucasian Mountains; for branches of these mountains, as I said before,1 project towards the south; they are fruitful, comprise the whole of Iberia, and border on both Armenia and Colchis. In the middle is a plain intersected by rivers, the largest being the Cyrus. This river has its beginning in Armenia, flows immediately into the plain above-mentioned, receives both the Aragus, which flows from the Caucasus, and other streams, and empties through a narrow valley into Albania; and between the valley and Armenia”

“ From the country of the nomads on the north there is a difficult ascent into Iberia requiring three days' travel; and after this ascent comes a narrow valley on the Aragus River, with a single file road requiring a four days' journey. The end of the road is guarded by a fortress which is hard to capture. The pass leading from Albania into Iberia is at first hewn through rock, and then leads through a marsh formed by the River Alazonius, which falls from the Caucasus. The passes from Armenia into Iberia are the defiles on the Cyrus and those on the Aragus. For, before the two rivers meet, they have on their banks fortified cities that are situated upon rocks, these being about sixteen stadia distant from each other--I mean Harmozice on the Cyrus and Seusamora on the other river. These passes were used first by Pompey when he set out from the country of the Armenians, and afterwards by Canidius.2”

In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages, it was deprived of that great authority by Cyrus and the Persians, although it continued to preserve much of its ancient dignity; and Ecbatana was winter residence4 for the Persian kings, and likewise for the Macedonians who, after overthrowing the Persians, occupied Syria; and still today it affords the kings of the Parthians the same advantages and security.

“ In Armenia itself there are many mountains and many plateaus, in which not even the vine can easily grow; and also many valleys, some only moderately fertile, others very fertile, for instance, the Araxene Plain, through which the Araxes River flows to the extremities of Albania and then empties into the Caspian Sea. After these comes Sacasene, this too bordering on Albania and the Cyrus River; and then comes Gogarene. Indeed, the whole of this country abounds in fruits and cultivated trees and evergreens, and even bears the olive. There is also Phauene, a province of Armenia, and Comisene, and Orchistene, which last furnishes the most cavalry.”

The map of Ptolemy corraborates evertyhing Strabo said.--Eupator 00:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This is hillarious! Eupator simply repeated me for no reason - basically, spammed, -- for unknown purpose. It's hard to disagree with the above Strabo wrote it, and if you look at the map, where Kura (Cyrus) and Araxes begin, and consider all the quotes, you will see VERY CLEARLY that the previously disseminated myth about border of Armenia and Albania being on Kura (Cyrus) is FALSE, and by copying Strabo's paragraphs -- which I've already provided -- you proved it once more. Kura, as Strabo said several times, flows THROUGH Albania, that means in the middle, not along or bordering, or anything like that. So thanks for exposing this major issue that has plagued many books from Armenia, which falsify Strabo's writings.

Finally, Movses Dasxuranci and Moisey Kalankatuyski (Kagankatvatsi, Kalankatly), which are two collective authors sometimes paired into one, could not have been Armenian as is obvious from the book -- he was ordered to write the book by "his king" great prince Jevanshir, and wrote about "our country, Albania". Same thing with the second and third authors of the "History of Caucasian Albanians". And finally, once again, both them, Albanian historians, and Armenian, Movses of Khorene, CLEARLY specify the border of Armenia with Albania as I described above. The issue of borders has been proven by the 1980s. Eupator, when it comes to history, leave it to those who are better versed in it. --AdilBaguirov 01

28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, this is not a circus or some azeri science conference it's an encyclopedia. Let me spoon feed you like a baby: and then on the east by this same sea as far as the boundary between Albania and Armenia, where empty the rivers Cyrus and Araxes, the Araxes flowing through Armenia and the Cyrus through Iberia and Albania. Do you need someone to read this for you? The river Araxes empties into the Kura on the border of Armenia and Albania!

Movses Dasxuranci/Kalankatuaci was 100% Armenian with an Armenian name. What that mongoloid Farida Jafar gizi Mamedova teaches you people wont pass here.--Eupator 02:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It seems like you can’t do without incivility or personal attacks. The source says that Cyrus flows thru Albania, and not along its borders. As for Movses, have you seen his birth certificate? How do you know his ethnicity then? Grandmaster 05:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, the Kura being the border is not the issue here (and BTW, Ptolomeus' map shows Kura as the border). The issue is where was Artsakh. Strabo, Plinius, and Ptol. (1c bc-2 c ad) all say it was part of Armenia. By the way, Strabo also says that everyone in Armenia (including Artsakh) spoke Armenian.

The problem with the prior version in the article is that it suggested the local name was Orkhistene before 2 AD, and then all of a sudden it became Artsakh. Greeks never said any of that--they themselves called Artsakh Orkhistene--they always distorted local names to fit their language.

By the way, Movses Khorenatsi and Kaghankatvatsi lived in 5th-7th cc. In their time Artsakh had been attached to Albania. Both historians generally use myths when describing events more than a few centuries before them. Generally, that far back, they are not taken too seriously. Strabo and the other Greeks were contemporary in 1c BC- 2nd c ad. They are much more reliable.--TigranTheGreat 07:14, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

TigranTheGreat, the maps from those times are imprecise and irrelevant - one look at them and modern physical maps is enough to understand why. So bringing all those mythical maps is not helping anything. Meanwhile, I do not recall Strabo saying anything about everyone speaking Armenian in Artsakh -- especially since there was no Armenian language then (I mean ancient Armenian, grabar), and Armenians spoke either various (Caucasian or Semitic or other) dialects or Greek, or Pahlavi and other Indo-European languages. Maybe you have a reference to Strabo? Moreover, Armenia after the downfall of ethnically non-Armenian Tigranes II Great, has become once again a vassal state under the influence of both Rome and Parthia. Meanwhile, C.Albania retained its independence, even if somewhat nominal. Since Strabo never says that Artsakh was conquered by Tigranes -- which would not have mattered anyway, as his relevant conquests lasted only 15 years (85-69 BC), with total empire lasting less than 30 years (95-65BC) -- and Armenia was a vassal state, ruled even in the I century AD by (see below) various non-Armenian kings, it was simply in no position to hold any Albanian territories, such as Artsakh -- read again Strabo about the size, strength and determination of the Albanian army and the fact that it got help from nomads from the north. Of course Albanian historians MK and MD and Armenian Movses of Khorene (by the way, their Armenianized names mean nothing -- just like "Napoleon Allahverdyan" is not a French Muslim, or French-Turk/Iranian, but clearly Armenian, despite nothing in that name being Armenian, or "Robert Kocharyan" for that matter, a Western and Turkic name with Iranian suffix -yan, or Karen Demirchyan or Abel Aghanbekiyan, etc.) have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but when all of them coincide on the fact that Albania's southern border went on Araxes and Western on Khnarakert, it is not anecdotal. MK/MD book has many more references showing what size was C.Albania and that Artsakh was very much part of it.

Armenian kings in I c. AD:
1. Ariobarzan (Atropatenan/Median) A.D. 2‑4
2. Artavazd IV (Atropatenan/Median) 4‑6
3. Tigran V (Jewish) 6‑14
3a. Erato (Tigran IV, again, first ruled 8 B.C.‑5 A.D.) 14‑15
4. Vonon (Parthian) 16‑17
5. Artashes III or Zeno (Roman) 18‑34
6. Arshak I (Parthian) 34‑35
7. Mithridates (Georgian) 35‑37 and 47‑51
8. Hradamizd (Georgian) 51‑53

--AdilBaguirov 07:36, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's not just maps, but contemporary Greek accounts that state that Artsakh was part of Armenia in 1c BC- 2 c AD. MK/MD say it was part of Albania because in 5th c AD it was attached to Albania. What MK/MD say about 2c BC is generally considered myth, and not taken seriously.

If you believe MK/MD, I tell you what. They say that in 2nd c BC, Albania was founded by an Armenian named Aran (from the Armenian family of Sisakan, which descended from Armenian patriarch Hayk, who himself was grandson of Japhet). They also say that this Armenian founder of Albania was appointed as a governer of Albania by the Armenian king, with Albania being part of Armenia. Are you going to accept that? If you believe one, you have to believe the other. Historians believe neither--they regard it as myth.

Armenian language has existed for 4000-5000 years (since INdoeuropean split). It definitely existed under Tigran, there is no dispute about that. Strabo says everyone in Armenia speaks the same language. You can easily look up your Strabo section on Armenia, it's there.

In sum, Greeks say Artsakh was part of Armenia.--TigranTheGreat 22:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

"(Making seperate section for the Greek discussion. Golbez/Francis, feel free to change however you like.)" I have no opinion at all on this section, consider my interest to be the remainder of the article. There's way, way too much here for me to start being familiar with it, so have your argument over that sentence. :) I'll stay down in the "one last try" section. ;) --Golbez 23:03, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey TigranTheGreat, the modern historians have established pretty well what are the borders of C.Albania - and if we are to read even ancient historians correctly (for example, the very same Strabo, whom some Armenian historians have been famous for misreading and then mistranslating, present the key word about Kura river flowing "through" as "along", which would give them then the result they wanted) - that the border was not on Kura river, but way to the West.

I like your sense of humor about Aran, Hayk, Japhet, Sisak, etc. - let me tackle that for you. To begin with, everyone except for a few lunatics, can mistake words about mythical and fairy tale rulers and kings for all other words. There is a clear distinction between those words, which MK/MD himself admits just before telling us about Valarshak, Aran, etc., that: "From the beggining of creation of human race to king of Armenia Valarshak, we cannot tell anything CREDIBLE to our listeners/readers about those living near the high mountains of Caucasus" (chapter 4). The words about Noah, Hayk, etc., are all very interesting -- but not for their historical accuracy value, but rather, as a study of a nation's folk tales and myths. Meanwhile, their data about the borders, however imprecise, was definitely not from the mythical perspective.

Secondly, you must have misread MK/MD and even Movses of Khorene, since you make several interesting claims: "Albania was founded by an Armenian named Aran (from the Armenian family of Sisakan, which descended from Armenian patriarch Hayk, who himself was grandson of Japhet). They also say that this Armenian founder of Albania was appointed as a governer of Albania by the Armenian king, with Albania being part of Armenia. Are you going to accept that?"

I don't know where did you read this, but certainly not from the above 2-3 authors. To begin with, Armenians simply cannot have an exclusive claim on mythical Japhet, who was according to the authors above (via his sons) the ancestor of the Caucasian Albans (see Chapter II of MK/MD).

Also, no one ever says that Sisak family was "Armenian" and hence, Aran could have been "Armenian" - that's simply not true, it is not in the text. MK/MD makes it clear that: "someone from the family of Sisak, one of descendants of Japhet, by the name of Aran, inherited the plains and mountains of Albania, FROM ARAXES RIVER TILL KHNARAKERT CASTLE" (Chapter 4). That's it, no word about some perceived Armenianess of those characters.

Then, perhaps you didn't know, but king Valarshak, the founder of Armenia, even in Armenian is known as Valarshak (Vagarshak) Partev -- i.e., Parthian. It is not a secret that he, like so many other "Armenian" rulers, was Parthian. So much for the "Armenian" nationality you stuck on him.

Thus, I've got no problem accepting all more or less logical information from ancient writers, realizing full well that much of info can be mistaken. However, when it coincides with info of other independent writers, it becomes more credible. Likewise, I've got no problem accepting both the factual recollections about the borders and the nice mythical story about Japhet, Sisak, Aran, Vagarshak, etc.

About the language and Strabo -- this is yet another example of misreading and puting words in the mouth of an ancient historian. Firstly, let's of course treat ancient authors with caution and see comments that are made by modern scholars. Then, let's remember that he was NOT a contemporary of these particular events you are alluding to. For example, his info about Hannibal and Artaxata, is disproven by Enc. Iranica. Secondly, NOWHERE does Strabo talks about "Armenian language" -- this language did not exist yet, and all that stuff about 4,000, even 5,000 years old Armenian language is bunch of fairy tales mixed with myths mixed further with balooney. There is no evidence about one common Armenian language - as the real "ancient Armenian", grabar, was developed in the early ADs, not BCs. That's why I've asked for the quote from Eupator, and he didn't quote it, because it would have become obvious. Moreover, Strabo writes the following:

"According to historians, Armenia, which was formerly a small country, was enlarged by Artaxias and Zariadris, who had been generals of Antiochus the Great, and at last, after his overthrow, when they became kings, (the former of Sophene, Acisene, (Amphissene?) Odomantis, and some other places, the latter of the country about Artaxata,) they simultaneously aggrandized themselves, by taking away portions of the territory of the surrounding nations: from the Medes they took the Caspiana, Phaunitis, and Basoropeda; from the Iberians, the country at the foot of the Paryadres, the Chorzene, and Gogarene, which is on the other side of the Cyrus; from the Chalybes, and the Mosynœci, Carenitis and Xerxene, which border upon the Lesser Armenia, or are even parts of it; from the Cataones, Acilisene,6 and the country about the Anti-Taurus; from the Syrians, Taronitis;7 hence they all speak the same language."

In other words, according to the understanding by certain Armenian historians, the inhabitants of Medes's provinces such as Caspiana (Talysh) (!) must have been Armenian, since they spoke "the same language" (which we are lobbyied to think was Armenian) with provinces of Iberia (Georgia), Syria, etc. Increddible! This is how history is being "rewritten" and thus (mis)understood by some. The truth is, if the "one language" is to be believed at all, then it was certainly Aramaic or Persian, and not unexistant Armenian, which outside Christian literature, never played any significant role, especially as a lingua franca. Nice try though. And of course neither Artaxias nor Zariadris were Armenian, hence where did Armenian language come in, is hard to understand. --AdilBaguirov 07:57, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you really expect to be taken seriously with remarks such as this? I will not go on and post the relevant materials, as it has nothing to do with the article, but before throwing words, terms and names to give the illusion that you know of what you are talking about(which has become quite pathological here in Misplaced Pages), you should read the three papers by Werner Winter about the problem of Armenian phonology, I. M. Diakonoff paper about Hurro-Urartian Borrowings and such relevant materials. And those are few, placing this into context, your words like This is how history is being "rewritten" and thus (mis)understood by some. Makes you look like an idiot, see, I did not say you were one, but that it makes you look like one. Dialects like Zaza, various Caucasian languages, (many which Circassians still speak of) etc. Are expected to have been distinguishable back from 600 BC, and they never up to now have had any alphabet or written rules. I'd rather see you use the same standard applied to the Azeris identity, had you done so, neither any Azeris language nor Azeris identity could have existed before the 1930s. I will not be claiming any thousands of years BC, but the Armenian dialects were clearly formed at least in 600 BC, since in the formation of the language there were few rule and many word barrowing from Hurro-Urartian which up to now are still distingishable. And for the relevant years it is unlikely that Aramaic for at least to the geography could have been those concerned, possibly Armenians or some tribal groups of Persians. But Stabro makes many mistakes in his writtings. All in all, there was no Caucasian Albania in the far BC years, and yet many scholars even deny there ever was one beyond a geographic region, much like 'Anatolia.' The only source, the author who wrote its history wrote it in Armenian, and who don't even know about his ethnicity and had no other contribution than Armenian. And the decyphrer key for the subsequent alphabets were written in Armenian too. It could have been an Armenian satelite state for all we know. As for the mythological stories about Noah, the sun of the sun or etc., are Armenian mythologies, the Albanian Noah connection was an Armenian mythology too. Those mythologies were recycled by Armenians from Jewish settlers in Nakhichevan, from which Armenians have fabricated legends. Fad (ix) 17:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, most of what you say is irrelevant to the section at issue. Do you admit that Strabo states that Orkhistene is part of Armenia?

I am Armenian, I know Armenian perfectly, and I can assure you that "tsakh" is very much Armenian word. There is absolutely noone objecting to this. If you have neutral sources stating otherwise, please tell us. I didn't ask you whether "Arsak" in Azeri really comes from "land of saks." If a group has its own name for something, and own explanation for its own name, we simply state it.--TigranTheGreat 20:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Trying one last time.

Here is a new section.

Here are the rules for the section.

1. No putting words in anyone's mouth.
2. No more repetition. This means that you are only allowed to mention 'international recognition', "16%", "ethnic cleansing", et.al. once per entry.
3. No more discussion about the CIA ethnolinguistic map, which some people have decided to use to ascribe motives and actions to me that did not exist.

Now, let's discuss the Misplaced Pages article on Nagorno-Karabakh, including the chart of provinces and the map therein. Nothing more. Nothing less. Can we do that? --Golbez 08:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

So should I summarize my points about the NK map on the Wiki NK page and the table, or it's all cleared up by now and we reached an agreement? Best, --AdilBaguirov 08:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned things up for you, I hope you do not mind. I just want that nasty fight behind us. Any complaints with the article, map, chart, whatever, discuss here, just please, no repetition or other debating techniques. Also, please no large pastes - we know what the international community has said, we don't need to be reminded. --Golbez 16:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

With regard to intro, the ultimate result of the edit wars was the replacement of the words a region of Azerbaijan with the words a region within Azerbaijan. This is wrong, the intro should say that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. That’s the accepted international status of the region, there’s no other. All UN Security Council resolutions refer to NK as a region of Azerbaijan, and so do other international organizations and countries. This is not just a position, this is the internationally accepted status of region, which the intro should reflect as it is a fact. Therefore the current revision is POV and the original version should be restored. Grandmaster 07:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

And add "self-styled" or "so-called" or "unrecognized" at least every other time that NK is mentioned, replace the "NKR" with simpler "NK", change the map to reflect the official, recognized toponyms, and of course stress that it is de jure part of Azerbaijan and recognized as such. --AdilBaguirov 07:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

We're going to mention that it is unrecognised in the lead. We will not be putting "self-styled", "so-called" or whatever in front of every mention of the name. It isn't encyclopaedic. This is an encyclopaedia article, not a UN, or other political document. - FrancisTyers · 10:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

But why was removed the mention that it is a region of Azerbaijan? Grandmaster 10:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Francis, that's why I say "every other time" to mention so-called, etc. But there is an easier way -- you don't have to say it more than once in the article if all instances of "NKR" are replaced with "authorities of NK". This solves the problem fairly. --AdilBaguirov 12:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

If someone says it, it's a position. I don't care if it's UNSC. Unless you can touch it, measure it, feel it, it's not a fact--it's position. Stating it as a fact is POV.

Golbez, about the "within borders." If we say "within Azerbaijan", we have to add de fact without the de jure--that's how it is in s. Oss. article. "Within Azerbaijan" alone is too much like "region of Azerbaijan," which was what I originaly objected to. "within borders of azerbaijan" states your point exactly--the need to provide the geographic context (that it's an enclave)--TigranTheGreat 22:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a de facto enclave, but de jure part of Azerbaijan. To call it an enclave is Karabakh POV; to call it part of Azerbaijan is Azeri POV. The fact is simply what I stated, it's a de facto enclave but de jure part of Azerbaijan. The best solution is to state the region or territory's (I think region is a better word, but to each their own) location, which is in Azerbaijan, without saying outright it's PART of Azerbaijan. That is a difficult balance to make. --Golbez 23:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Fine, that's why we didn't use the "encalve" word but your choice of "within." What's wrong with "within borders of Azerbaijan?" It's your intended point--geographic context.--TigranTheGreat 23:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I was the one with the problem with "within the borders of". --Golbez 23:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think your compromise solution actually had "within the borders of" (), then you immediately removed the "borders." It think your first version clearly states the point. This is the best way to avoid the "de facto/de jure/de mojo" mess. And this is the best way to reach a middle point and get over the intro.--TigranTheGreat 23:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, though I still agree with my next edit. --Golbez 00:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest we restore the original intro, which was a compromise, achieved after many months of disputes. Check the last 2 archives. The fact is that NK is de-jure part of Azerbaijan, not region within the borders, but a region of Azerbaijan. It has no other status. The current version is Armenian POV and is not neutral. The position of international community is clear: NK is recognized as part of Azerbaijan, and it’s not just a position, the status of NK is based on it. Therefore removing that fact that it is a region of Azerbaijan is absolutely unacceptable. It is actually considered a good manner to discuss the changes to controversial articles with other users and don’t make unilateral changes. But the way you guys change the intro based on your own vision without making account of the position of the other side is no good at all. I attach a totally disputed tag, as the current version of intro is not neutral. Grandmaster 07:32, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

"it has no other status"? What about 'de facto'? Your own POV is leaking, Grandmaster. --Golbez 07:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The Armenian POV would be "NK is independent." That's not what the current version states--it says the pure facts--declaration of independence, and non-recognition. Therefore, it is a nice neutral middle ground between the Armenian and your POV. Your version goes the other way, and therefore is POV.

As long as there are more than one POV's on the status, any statement regarding the status is by definition a position. Under NPOV standards, it's absolutely unacceptable to assert positions, including "NK is part of" or "not part of" Azerbaijan. If that's what "unrecognized by others" means, let the readers draw the conclusion.

Your refusal to compromise, and your continuous insistence on reverting without even trying to discuss has been the reason behind the edit wars. I suggest you adopt good manners in editting before telling others to do so.--TigranTheGreat 07:53, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The edit war started as soon as you returned here and made changes to the intro without discussing it with others. Before that this article was stable for many months. It is a fact that the current legal status of NK is a region of Azerbaijan, which is confirmed by international community. Removing that from the article and introducing POV vision of things will not help to keep this article neutral, stable and balanced. I once again suggest we restore the version of intro that existed before you changed it. Grandmaster 08:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually the edit war resumed after you automatically started reverting without even attempting a discussion. My edit had nothing to do with you--it modified a line that was so POV that even you had never offered it. I never introduced a POV version--my POV would be "NK is independent." As long as the status is disputed by principal parties, their positions are just that-positions. I suggest we leave it at the current factual, non-POV version. It's the best deal possible for this kind of article.--TigranTheGreat 09:41, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Here’s your first edit: You introduced a POV edit to the intro, which was stable for many months, and did it without discussing it with other users. And I don’t remember you calling for discussion, you just made that edit and reverted any attempts to restore the status-quo. Current version is absolutely unacceptable and we will have to go through dispute resolution process again. Grandmaster 10:12, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that dispute resolution is required when the only person voicing a totallydisputed dispute is someone who himself has a clear POV. A more valid suggestion may be a request for comment; get the community in here to see if they consider it neutral or not. --Golbez 16:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Stable doesn't mean neutral. Articles are continuously editted and get improved. Your uncompromising stance prevents any improvement to this article. I saw a blatant POV phrase, I modified it, and I discussed it on the talk page. You started a revert war without discussion, which is your habit. The current version is the best middle ground between the various POV's. If we are to keep improving this article, this is the best deal.--TigranTheGreat 10:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, your version is good. I have two objections though. 1) "Armenian military control" is more neutral than "control by Armenian Military"--the second implies Armenia's military (which is disputed), and the first is more general and doesn't choose between "local Armenian forces" or "Armenia's forces". 2) I think "control" is more neutral than "occupied" whether with respect to NK or the surrounding Azeri lands. Also, we might want to specify that we are talking about "surrounding regions of Azerbaijan," so the reader will know that it's not just the NK being occupied. Thanks.--TigranTheGreat 17:14, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know if the Armenian military is in actual control of Nagorno-Karabakh, or merely - at least in word - assists the local self-proclaimed NKR military. Can someone clear this up for me? As for #2, I still think we should mention that the non-NK portion of Azerbaijan is occupied, as it has not declared independence, has not been annexed, making it de facto and de jure part of Azerbaijan, but with foreign military in control of it. You will note that I specified that only the area around N-K, not N-K itself, is occupied; N-K was noted as controlled. But a clarification on my question here about the Armenian military in N-K would be very helpful, thanks. --Golbez 20:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Azeris say it's Armenia, Armenians say it's local forces, PACE resolutions say 'local separatists control NK', and for the occupied territories, they use the general "Armenian forces" term. So, it's all over the place. Even if Armenia's soldiers are there, it's unknown how much are they mixed with local soldiers, what's the ratio, who is subordinated to whom. Therefore, I believe "Armenian military control" is the most neutral, non-controversial.

My objection to "occupied" with respect to actual Azeri territories is that "occupied" is more judgmental than "controlled".

By the way, the current revert by El_C puts the intro back to its prior POV version and is unacceptable. The latest version is (with some variations) accepted by most users. Grandmaster, who has been blocked for revert warring, asked El_C to intervene () clearly because El_C's version has been the most pro-Azeri one (even more so than those previously offered by Grandmaster). I don't think it's appropriate for El_C to make such a sweeping unilateral change without being familiar with the issues and history of discussions here. To bring the intro to a more compromisable point, I think we should restore the prior neutral version.--TigranTheGreat 22:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Oy vey. NPOV is going to be difficult when things are that confused. --Golbez 23:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't then "Armenian military control" more appropriate? It contains the implication of both the local forces, and Armenia's military. "Control of Armenian Military" sounds too much like Armenia's army.--TigranTheGreat 00:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with NK article is that it still diverges with the NPOV of the international community and real unbiased facts. The so-called "NKR" has to be preceeded by either self-styled, or unrecognized or so-called as is the norm (I've cited a dozen or so varied sources that clearly show it's the norm). Again, this is not a wish or some nice suggestion -- this is the standard terminology and is consistent with other Wiki pages (see Abkhazia, S.Ossetia, etc. pages), and hence must be implemented. Meanwhile, in order not to mention any of these 3 choices preceeding "NKR" then it itself should be replaced with simply "NK", and instead of "government" it should be "authorties", which is again consistent with the language and terminology used by authoritative publications and sources, of which Wiki considers itself as well. The term "NK authorities" is also used by all, including official Armenian, US, UN and OSCE sources, thus no one can object: , , , , .

Then, the sentence "predominantly Armenian population declared independence" leaves one thinking that perhaps some Azerbaijanis have stayed and joined those Armenians in proclamation of "independence". Instead, it should say that only the Armenian population declared independence -- and clarify what happened to the Azerbaijani population, which was ethnically cleansed from NK and are now all refugees/displaced. This is also a must, since NK, as all of Karabakh and all of Azerbaijan belongs to the people who have traditionally lived there -- which includes a very sizeable Azerbaijani population, which was in majority until the begining of 20th century, yet still even in 1989 was sizeable.

A surprisingly reasonable statement, I'll try an edit. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Then, while it is a nice mythology, where is the proof that "Tsakh" is Armenian for Woods, "Ar" is abbreviation for Aramanyak? It is false -- "tsakh" does not mean woods (or forest, as some also allege) in Armenian! Moreover, since after I've reminded that the area was called Orchistene/Orkhistene, and Armenian users have further improved it by adding the Urartean name of Urtekhini, then Artsakh definitely cannot be from not-yet-existing Armenian language -- whether modern (since 15th century) or ancient, grabar (since early ADs), especially since Armenians are not autohtonous to the Caucasus and have invaded later, in the waning years of Urartu, and took over their culture, some vocabulary, etc. But what is clear is that Artsakh simply cannot be an Armenian name -- it is a modern-day attempt by some Armenians to do what Russians describe as "force smth by its ears". Therefore, this explanation "from Armenian language" unless our Armenian friends can provide a dictionary showing that "tsakh" means woods or forests, and not the word "brush". And of course, it would be nice to see how did ancient "Ar/Er/Ur" suddenly became Aramanyak! Maybe Armanyak (Armagnac), the brandy/cognac producing region in SW France, is also land of Armenians? What about Saskatchewan in Canada? --AdilBaguirov 08:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

In addition, as already said many times, saying "under the control of the Armenian military" or otherwise using the word "control" instead of "occupation" is total POV - despite what some might think and others wish, international law, terminology and standards are clear, and clearly specify occupation. Whilst some sources, mostly media, do not see much difference, they do not apply in our case, since 1) everyone here clearly understands the difference and 2) this is an encyclopedia, which means more precision, more research and more neutrality and unbiasness. In addition to all other sources I've cited before, here are some more from international media, NGOs, and some governments that clearly use the factual and precisely defined term "occupation" instead of more vague and attempt to conceal the situation, and thus POV, "control": , , , , , , , . The word "control" should be replaced with the internationally defined and precise term of "occupied". --AdilBaguirov 09:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

NPOV is about compromise, and to me, it seems "control" is a perfectly valid compromise word. By trying to force "occupied", you are inserting a particular NPOV, whereas "control" has no POV at all, from how I see it. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, the leader of the Azerbaijani community of NK must be mentioned, Mr. Nizami Bakhmanov, and his portrait, like that of Ghoukasyan, should be provided too. He participates in relevant sessions and meetings of the OSCE Minsk Group, and his signature is also on the 1994 cease-fire agreement. He is the head of the executive power of Shusha region. --AdilBaguirov 09:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, mention him. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, not that it makes a world of difference (re: your question: "if the Armenian military is in actual control of Nagorno-Karabakh, or merely - at least in word - assists the local self-proclaimed NKR military") since occupation is occupation and doesn't matter if assistance is 100% or 50%. What matters is that the world community have recognized it as military occupation, and have refused to recognize the so-called "NKR" with Azerbaijan not only refusing even a thought about legitimizing the Armenian occupation, but hinting without any double-speak that it has full right to start the liberation campaign at any time, that patience of Azerbaijan is not indefinite and that the current massive reforms and weapons procurement of the Azerbaijani army are aimed for one purpose -- if the peace talks will fail in the next few years, then military solution will be the only left, unfortunately. Meanwhile, all experts know that the assistance of Armenia to the occupation effort is total and the fact that both Kocharyan and Sarkisyan are President and Defense Minister/Security Council Chief respectively of Armenia, whilst being leaders of NK separatism a decade ago, as well as reported parading of T-80 tanks and S-300s in NK, that were given only to Armenia, make it abundantly clear. If you monitor press, then you will see that each time there is shooting on the Line of Contact, it is generally either Defense Minister of Armenia, Sarkisyan, or the Chief of Staff of Armenia, Harutunyan, who give interviews, explain, claim, make threats, assessments, etc., and not "president" Ghoukasyan. However, just to satisfy your curiosity, here are either neutral or Armenian reports that shed a lot of light on just how well "integrated" the NK units are with the Armenian army:

What matters is what is accurate, not what the "world community" says. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"The Army of Karabakh is deeply integrated with the Armenian military, and the unrecognised NKR state depends on the Armenian army to ensure its survival as an independent national entity. Armenia considers any act of aggression against Karabagh as an act of aggression against itself."

"Physical abuse and poor conditions plagued the Armenian army, resulting in the deaths of several conscripts. They include the death on April 7 of Vahagan Alaverdyan, an eighteen-year-old resident of Yerevan drafted into the Armenian army in November 1997. Alaverdyan’s family stated that they identified him at the Khojaly Military Hospital in Nagorno Karabakh, covered with extensive bruises on the chest, stomach, and back. They further accused officers and other members of the military unit in which he served in Nagorno Karabakh of beating him to death. The Armenian government routinely denies that it conscripts troops and requires them to serve in Nagorno Karabakh."

"Jehovah's Witness conscientious objector Armen Grigoryan faces a six year jail sentence, after his illegal deportation from his own country, Armenia, and his refusal to do military service in the unrecognised Nagorno-Karabakh republic, Forum 18 News Service has learnt. But Armenia's Human Rights Ombudsperson, Larisa Alaverdyan, denied to Forum 18 that Grigoryan had been deported. "You can't call it illegal deportation – there's no such term. I'm a specialist on this. Perhaps it might have been illegal removal from the country." She defended what she claimed was the right of the Armenian Defence Ministry to send Armenian citizens to Nagorno-Karabakh, which international law regards as part of Azerbaijan."

"Seda Mkrtchyan watches news of the war in Iraq and thinks of conflict closer to her home in the Pokr Vedi village of the Ararat region. ... It has been more than five years (February 1998), since Seda's only son, Armen, disappeared from his regimen while encamped in the Martakert region of Nagorno Karabakh. He had been called to service 10 months earlier, and his letters home were mostly optimistic about his life as a conscripted soldier." --AdilBaguirov 10:08, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Adil, Wiki policies and policies of international bodies are not the same. Wiki is not UN spokesperson. Under the policy of Misplaced Pages, we use neutral words--for example, even if someone is terrorist, we say "militant." Similarly, we say "control", not "occupation."

Also, under Wiki naming conventions, we use internal names--if someone or something calls itself this or that, we adopt that. NK calls itself NKR--we use that. These rules are clearly explained in Wiki policies. There should be links from your user page--follow, it's easy to find.--TigranTheGreat 20:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I note that "NPOV" does not mean "offering all points of view" - it means "offering a neutral point of view", one that I think has been offered here. Statements of fact without judgment. --Golbez 21:12, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

So why then the fact that NK is a de-jure region of Azerbaijan was removed from the intro? Grandmaster 21:17, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Economy

This article really needs a section on Nagorno-Karabakh's economy, which I'm sure is very stunted due to the war, but who knows, maybe I'll be surprised. --Golbez 16:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

And yes, I actually have high hopes this could become a GA or even FA. Barring possible POV issues, it's really shaped up quite well, though it still has a ways ahead of it. --Golbez 23:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the article is well referenced and very promising. Hopefully if Grandmaster adopts a more flexible stance to new additions and changes, we can all have a real breakthrough in improving the article.

I think the first place to look for economy would be the official NKR page (www.nkrusa.org) itself. If course we could state that it's from NKR page to make it more POV.--TigranTheGreat 07:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Golbez. There’s absolutely no way this article can make it to GA or FA status. The current intro, introduced by you and Tigran without discussing it with other interested parties reflects exclusively an Armenian POV, and articles with POV problems cannot have a featured status. I’m restoring the POV tag, which was repeatedly removed without any explanation. You cannot remove the tag until the dispute is resolved. And its not just me opposing your changes, Adil never supported them either. Also I have a question to Golbez. Would you be so kind as to explain why you reverted the original intro, which was restored by EI C? That intro was made by a consensus of the users, the current one has no consensus, still you repeatedly revert to it. You say that you are impartial, if so, why do you support one of the sides of the dispute and completely ignore what the other side says? Why do you oppose to restoring the status quo and agreeing on changes before making them? Thanks in advance for your answer. Grandmaster 15:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I see no "exclusive Armenian POV" here. You keep saying that, without explaining why. Is it the controlled vs occupied bit? Or the lack of "self-proclaimed" everywhere in the article? Or what? I hope I'm not repeating a question that's been answered, but I hope you can understand with the volume of talk on this page that I may have missed an answer, but can you cite a specific POV issue you have with the intro? I would say I am far more impartial than you. --Golbez 21:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I’m not saying that I’m impartial. But you removed the fact that NK is a region of Azerbaijan. It’s a fact that was in all the versions of intro. What is your problem with that? Grandmaster 21:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

One, it matches the other regional separatists articles. Two, if you accept that the region is de facto independent (which I think most of us do), then how can it also be "a fact" (i.e. "de facto") that it is also part of Azerbaijan? --Golbez 21:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

There was no consensus on the prior intro. Consensus means agreement, and as reactions of current users show, many didn't agree to it. It was blatantly POV. People sometimes move on to other articles, and leave an article alone--doesn't mean they agree to it. Before the prior intro, there was another version opposed by you that existed for a while. You can't just pick one "status-quo" version over another one that was status-quo at another point. The criteria is whether something is neutral.

Well put, there is disagreement, therefore there is no consensus. QED. --Golbez 21:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenian POV is "NK is independent." That's not what the intro says. The current intro is purely factual, without any loaded objectionable words. There is absolutely nothing POV about it.

Adil claims that no Armenian language existed before 400 AD. He clearly has POV stance, and his dispute cannot be regarded as genuine.--TigranTheGreat 20:16, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Tigran, I don't claim anything - I state facts, and it seems you unable to disprove them. Instead, Tigran, you seem to misinterpret information and puting words in the mouths of some historians, like Strabo. That's a no-no. I've said what I've read from Armenian sources - which is that ancient Armenian language was formed in the early ADs. In fact the Great Soviet Encyclopedia, edited by an Armenian, and written by several Armenians, makes it clear: Grabar (Ancient Armenian) was formed in 5th century AD. Middle Armenian - from 11-17 cc. Modern - since 17 century, which in 19th century becomes even more modern. Same is confirmed by another authoritative book and . Thus, please stop projecting your own image onto others and do not make baseless, groundless accusations that are so frivolous that make one wonder the real intentions. --AdilBaguirov 21:40, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Golbez, just because a few ignorant users "disagree", doesn't mean there is no concesus. Neither NK page nor Misplaced Pages can be held hostage by a few motivated users who base their incalcitrant and meritless positions not on internationally recognized, approved and voted documents (smth known as "international law", which is mandatory for everyone) but on frivolous claims. Armenian POV is not just "NK is independent", but also "NK is part of Armenia", and derivatives from it. Meanwhile, the international law -- that is NPOV -- is clear that: NK is militarily occupied, NK is de jure part of Azerbaijan, NK is ethnically cleansed of Azerbaijani population, NK is self-styled/unrecognized/so-called. There are NPOV and I've given dozens of citations as proof. --AdilBaguirov 21:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge

A proposal to merge this article with my recently-created Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast has been made, by someone not me. I can see the merits in a merge; however, I note that many other Soviet entities - two relevant ones being the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast and Azerbaijan SSR - have articles. I'm of the mind that says we should have articles on all the old Soviet entities, even if they have perfectly corresponding present-day ones, just because of the current standards and the history behind it all. Comments? --Golbez 01:59, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I think we can have a link from the NK page to the NKAO page. NKAO page could cover the time period of 23-91, with economy and stuff--there is certainly much more official data on economy available for the Soviet period.--TigranTheGreat 07:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Meh, I don't think it's necessary. I turned the article into a redirect for the Nagorno-Karabakh page and I've redirected the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast page to the article on South Ossetia. After all, aside from the conflict that arose in the late 1980s, there really isn't much to the history of Karabakh under the Soviet Union. It's different for say the Armenian SSR or Azerbaijan SSR articles where the history of those republics can be detailed. -- Clevelander 20:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Occupation by Armenia

In fact, “NKR” is nothing but a puppet regime, run from Yerevan. Since Armenia cannot admit that it occupies a territory of the neighboring country for obvious reasons, it uses “NKR” to cover up its involvement. This fact is very well known and admitted internationally. Dov Lynch of Institute for Security Studies of WEU explained situation pretty well:

The separatist areas depend on other sources of external support for their existence. In the case of Karabakh, independence is really a sleight of hand which barely covers the reality that it is a region of Armenia. In February 1988, the Supreme Soviet of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Region in Azerbaijan voted to unite with the Armenian Republic. Subsequently, the independence of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic was declared on 2 September 1991. Karabakh’s independence allows the new Armenian state to avoid the international stigma of aggression, despite the fact that Armenian troops fought in the war between 1991-94 and continue to man the Line of Contact between Karabakh and Azerbaijan. The strength of the Armenian armed forces, and Armenia’s strategic alliance with Russia, are seen as key shields protecting the Karabakh state by the authorities in Stepanakert.

Some more about involvement of Armenia from authoritative sources:

PACE Rapporteur David Atkinson:

According to the information given to me, Armenians from Armenia had participated in the armed fighting over the Nagorno-Karabakh region besides local Armenians from within Azerbaijan. Today, Armenia has soldiers stationed in the Nagorno-Karabakh region and the surrounding districts, people in the region have passports of Armenia, and the Armenian government transfers large budgetary resources to this area.

Human Rights Watch:

From the beginning of the Karabakh conflict, Armenia provided aid, weapons, and volunteers. According to Karabakh authorities, Armenia was providing upwards of 90 percent of the enclave's yearly budget in the form of interest-free credits. Some analysts believed that payments to Karabakh constituted 7 to 9 percent of Armenia's yearly budget.

Armenian involvement in Karabakh escalated after a December 1993 Azerbaijani offensive. The Republic of Armenia began sending conscripts and regular Army and Interior Ministry troops to fight in Karabakh. In January 1994, several active-duty Armenian Army soldiers were captured near the village of Chaply, Azerbaijan. While Armenia denied involvement in the conflict, in London in February 1994 President Levon Ter-Petrosyan stated that Armenia would intervene militarily if the Karabakh Armenians were faced with "genocide" or "forced deportation." The fighting during this Azerbaijani offensive, which lasted until February 1994, was exceptionally brutal. International aid agencies and foreign governments were concerned at the low number of prisoners of war registered given the scale of fighting.

To bolster the ranks of its army, the Armenia government resorted to press-gang raids to enlist recruits. Draft raids intensified in early spring, after Decree no. 129 was issued, instituting a three-month call-up for men up to age forty-five. Military police would seal off public areas, such as squares, and round up anyone who looked to be draft age. All male Armenian citizens between the ages of twenty-five and forty-five were forbidden to leave the country without special permission. According to a report in the influential German daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees issued an order by which Armenian draft resisters should be given refugee status.

Information from the US State department about involvement of Armenia was provided by Adil and can be found here.

Unfortunately, the role of Armenia in the conflict has not been adequately reflected in the article, but Im going to correct this. Grandmaster 16:02, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

If it is indeed a puppet state run from Yerevan, then explain to me why Armenia presently does not recognize it. The statements that you have provided only prove that Armenia has aided Karabakh Armenians and not the government of Nagorno-Karabakh itself. I do not wish to argue on this matter, but I just found your statement that "'NKR' is nothing but a puppet regime, run from Yerevan" to be a bit extreme. -- Clevelander 16:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It’s not just my opinion. Many observers think the same. See Dov Lynch of Institute for Security Studies of WEU:

Karabakh’s independence allows the new Armenian state to avoid the international stigma of aggression, despite the fact that Armenian troops fought in the war between 1991-94 and continue to man the Line of Contact between Karabakh and Azerbaijan. Grandmaster 17:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but you never explained to me why Armenia presently does not recognize the NKR if it is indeed a puppet state run from Yerevan. -- Clevelander 17:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The reason is obvious. Armenia will have to face serious consequences if it does so. It will be accused of disrupting the peace process and interfering in other country’s affairs.

Btw, I did not delete anything from the article. The paragraph that you added is now repeated twice. Grandmaster 18:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with Grandmaster on this one, I think the only reason Armenia does not officially recognize Azerbaijan is simple politics. --Golbez 21:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

But if it's a puppet state, doesn't it have to be recognized by its agent government first? Oh well. I guess it doesn't matter. I won't pursue an argument over this.

Re: deletion - Ah, I see. My mistake. I apologize. -- Clevelander 18:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

That's right. When a state sets up a puppet state--it first officially recognizes it as independent, then says "I got nothing to do with it." Armenia has not officially recognized the independence of NK.--TigranTheGreat 20:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Puppets don't need to be recognized to be puppets. It can be a de facto puppet. --Golbez 21:18, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Lynch's opinion is opinion nonetheless, not fact. We have presented many neutral sources stating that NK is de-facto independent. Obviously, they don't consider it just a puppet state.

In 1997 Armenia accepted a solution in Lisbon. NK rejected. If NK was a puppet state, that would never happen.

Generally, political analysts often reflect positions and POV's of their countries. US and its close ally Britain, for political reasons, have traditionally be pro-Turkish, anti-Russian, which by default makes them pro-Azeri. Their POV is reflected in the US position, and British Atkinson's report. PACE resolution itself did not include Atkinson's "Armenia's soldiers are in NK" statement--it was more careful.--TigranTheGreat 20:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, if it's an opinion, is it really necessary to include it in the article? -- Clevelander 20:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course. If we include an opnion of some law school about NK, why should we not include this? The rules allow. Grandmaster 20:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Alright, you make a good point. I'll compromise, let's keep it in. -- Clevelander 20:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

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