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Euros

Right. But none of the countries issue Euros. Only the European Central Bank does. Andorra has been using Euros since inception as they have never had an official currency. Currently, they have been using them officially since July 2013 and therefore are in line with all of the other micro states. They also have a right to issue Euro COINS but have not yet minted or issued them as there was a delay in getting them minted. They are still Euro users and the answer is YES! on the chart. I sincerely hope this clears up the issue at hand. ~Julien~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julien Houle (talk • contribs) 19:58, 8 January 2014 P.S. There is no such thing as "partially using the Euro", the country either has rights or uses unilaterally. As a matter of fact then, Andorra cannot issue Euros, only the ECB. Briefzehn 00:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)(UTC) Briefzehn

Your claim that "none of the countries issue Euros" is incorrect, and is contradicted by Andorra's monetary agreement which explicitly grants Andorra: "The right to issue euro coins".

Yes, Andorra was previously using the euro unofficially, but they were officially granted usage rights as of April 2012 (when the MA came into force), not July 2013. All that happened in July 2013 was that they were granted the right to issue euros, subject to certain conditions. There have been delays in trying to meet these conditions. Once they meet the conditions and actually issue euros, then they will be in line with the rest of the microstates and it would make sense to colour them green. But as of now, they aren't quite there. Prior to them getting usage rights, they were coloured blue (like Kosovo and Montenegro). Now that they have usage rights but can't yet issue euros, they are coloured yellow. Once they issue euros like the rest of the green states, they should be coloured green. Every other green state issues their own euros; I don't see why we should make an exemption for Andorra.

As I mentioned in my edit summary, lots of places are official euro users. For instance, the UK's Akrotiri and Dhekelia are official euro users. Should we colour the UK green because they officially have the right to use the euro in their territory? I don't believe so. Green should be reserved for states which actually issue their own euros.

Also, I never said they were "partially using the Euro". What I actually said was that they were "they're only partially participating in the eurozone" because they don't issue their own euros. Their situation now is analogous to Akrotiri and Dhekelia/Mayotte/Saint Pierre and Miquelon/French Southern and Antarctic Lands/Saint-Barthélemy (users but not issuers) not the microstates, which are BOTH users and issuers. Hopefully Andorra issues their euros soon so this issue will be resolved. TDL (talk) 04:16, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

EU and Europe

Not arguing against your revert on European Union, as EU is clearer than Europe, but I'm surprised you imply that you haven't heard anyone refer to the EU as "Europe". In my experience, it's quite a common occurrence. It's tends not to be confusing either, as the meaning is always clear from context. I reckon it's exactly what must've happened to the United States, where "America" came into common usage as a shortform name, displacing the other candidates. CMD (talk) 22:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I've definitely seen it used colloquially to allude to the EU, but I've always just taken it as a figure of speech and not a literal name for the EU. For example, in the sentence "Downing Street and William Hague have experienced a rare moment of unity with Nick Clegg on Europe" the author is clearly referring specifically to the EU, but if the sentence read "Downing Street and William Hague have experienced a rare moment of unity with Nick Clegg on the Continent/Brussels" (both common figures of speech), to me it would have the exact same meaning, it just utilizes different features to identify the EU. I'm not sure that makes "the Continent" or "Brussels" a synonym for the EU, rather than just a metonymy. (I admit had too look up that word!) I suppose the counterargument is that if the figure of speech is used frequently enough, it aquires a new meaning which transcends its original definition and becomes a name. This suggests that that is what has happened in British usage, so it probably comes down to an engvar issue. (As for America, your pseudoetymology sounds plausible, but after this discussion I've had quite enough of that subject!) TDL (talk) 01:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm choking up!

Thanks for the barnstar Dan! It's nice to have a non-bot show up on my talk page and I'm glad the effort on the Argonauts article was appreciated.

Speaking of books, I just got The Argo Bounce in the mail last night. In fact, when you wrote, I was about to dig back into the article with new factoids. (Did you know that Harry Sonshine fired all thirteen imports on the Argos at once in 1954?!) I stopped myself, however, because too much detail can overburden and over-lengthen an article. I'll probably just add little bits and pieces going forward. The main task will be a History of the Toronto Argonauts. I'd like to have this companion article in shape before an FA nom to provide a target for any concerns over too much or too little coverage. When I have it in my sandbox, I'll give you the link.

"I've got digital access to numerous newspaper archives..." Do you really have the Globe back to 1844? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking it would be super-cool to quote the Globe and/or Daily Mail in the days after the first game of October 18, 1973 if you can find it. Both the papers apparently covered the game. Dontreadalone (talk) 01:39, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and do you actually prefer to be addressed as Dan or TDL? Dontreadalone (talk) 02:01, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Dan works for me, though I'm not particularly fussy either way. And you earned that barnstar for all your hard work on the article!

I can't say I've actually tested it all the way back to 1844 (and some of the reproductions of older papers are quite poor), but the articles are fully indexed and searchable, so I should be able to find something from 1873. (I'm currently in the midst of a "sever weather event" that's knocked out my power at home, limiting my access to the internet, so it might take me a few days to get around to it depending on when that gets resolved.) TDL (talk) 19:54, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Just did a quick search and found an article from October 21 in the Globe describing the game. The entire article (except for the team rosters) is reproduced in this interesting article. TDL (talk) 20:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Woot. That Coffin Corner piece is a find. In fact, my Double Blue book is actually relying on that article for info on the first game but I hadn't encountered it directly.

The Daily Mail summary is short and sweet. I think it would look good as a block quote at the beginning of the first history section. Thanks! Dontreadalone (talk) 01:09, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

A bit of a change of heart. I mocked up a preliminary ToC for a "History of..." article here. Staring it occurred to me that that project alone could take a couple of months. While it would be nice to have that done prior to nominating the main article for FA I don't think it essential.

Long story short, I think we should just polish this sucker up and send it off. There's date formats and that kind of thing to be done and I still want to finish The Argo Bounce. It would also be really nice if a totally independent editor could look over the copy. But all in all, it's pretty close. Dontreadalone (talk) 02:31, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Agreed that a "History of ..." article would be a big job: 140 years is a lot of history! (At least by Canadian standards...)

I'll try to give it a good copyedit/review on the weekend. Maybe the best thing to do is start an itemized list of open issues that should be addressed with relation to WP:WIAGA/WP:WIAFA on the talk page. Once we're happy with it, it would probably be worth soliciting outside opinions at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Canadian football. TDL (talk) 03:45, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

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List of neutral site Canadian Football League games

Did you write and ref this whole list yourself? That's exceptional! How great to stumble across something properly referenced. I'm stealing the American games to add to the newly moved Canadian Football League in the United States. Dontreadalone (talk) 01:12, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I see you don't actually want to fork anything out. I really think it would be acceptable use within the FORK guideline: "Articles on distinct but related topics may well contain a significant amount of information in common with one another. This does not make either of the two articles a content fork."

What do you say about just copying the American info from your list? Dontreadalone (talk) 01:23, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Ha, well technically I think I stole the table from 2013 Hamilton Tiger-Cats season, so that was a start! But the referencing and the rest of the games was me. It took a while, but as you've probably noticed I prefer working on tables/maps/citations/etc. over writing real content...

Actually, I just took a look at User:Dontreadalone/sandbox and there weren't nearly as many games in the USA as I had recalled. Not that many more than Touchdown Atlantic, which I already split out. So yeah I suppose you have a point that it's reasonable to repeat them on CFL in the United States. And as an added bonus, if you're planning to write some content to go along with the table we could back-fork it to the full list. With a bit more prose (and a little beautifying), I don't think it would be too hard to get it up to WP:FL (which doesn't have nearly as bad a backlog). The list itself is effectively complete, and other FL such as this have very little prose. TDL (talk) 01:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I totally thought of FL when I realized how well referenced it was—and that was before I knew you'd written it. It just needs a few paragraphs of contextualization. Definitely something to get done. I can go through the referencing and write an intro based on what's already there, if you want.

User:Knoper has posted a concern that the CFL in the United States would still be better off focused only on the expansion years. I can see his point and am ambivalent. Please weigh in when you can. Dontreadalone (talk) 05:02, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Could you offer some advice here on the best form of map that can be easily made for our American expansion article? I know zilch about what's easiest. Dontreadalone (talk) 01:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

(o/d) Chicago Cardinals-Toronto Argonauts exhibition game. A new one for you to look over. I've sprinkled it in to some of the articles we've been editing. Hoping to take it to DYK. Dontreadalone (talk) 19:14, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Looks good! I linked it from a few more articles (while copying over some of your text) and made a few minor changes. TDL (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello

Hello, would you care to help Danish Expert, if he wants, to update the euro convergence criteria and the fiscal compact's fiscal compliance tables with newer data from official reports? Heracletus (talk) 03:53, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Are there new convergence reports available? I don't expect a new ECB report until May. (Last year's report dealt exclusively with Latvia to assess its readiness to adopt the euro.) The Fiscal Compact compliance definitely needs to be updated with the autumn forcast. I'm certainly willing to help out with the update effort.

PS: Thanks for fixing all the WP:BAREURLs on Unified Patent Court and European Fiscal Compact. I know it's tedious work, but it looks much better now! TDL (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, the last convergence report was on June 2013, and was up to and including April 2013. For some reason, the template here is up to and including March. And, of course, has different reference values than the convergence report.

However, and as I first made a comment on Danish Expert's talk page, and you had not noticed this variation before, please don't argue again. Just update it if you both agree that it could and should be updated. Otherwise, it can wait some months till this year's convergence report.

About the Fiscal Compact, yes, I was referring to the autumn report and/or the forthcoming one, along with the section below that table with some of Danish Expert's contributions. I was hoping and still do that this year we may be able to agree on how to formulate that whole section. Again, I don't support unilateral actions, as I am the one bringing this up. I do support Danish Expert taking an/the initiative, while also consulting with other editors of the page.

I have noticed that he (I think he's male) has refrained from contributing on the euro articles for some time now, and I don't think anyone's intention was to make him feel unwelcome or drive him away, as long as he exercised some self control and talked with the other editors before adding up too much information, which may or may not have been of value.

I do hope we could find a way to make this work out. Would you perhaps want to talk to him about co-operating on updating these tables? Heracletus (talk) 23:09, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but as I said above the June 2013 convergence report only covered Latvia. See for yourself here. (Compare this with the 2012 Report which covered all the states.) The reports are only prepared every other year, but states can request an extra report if they think they can qualify for euro adaption. Latvia requested a report last year, hence the Latvia-only June 2013 report. As far as I can tell, the numbers on Template:Euro convergence criteria are based on Danish Expert's personal calculations. You can see the template I created with data from the 2013 report at Template:Euro convergence criteria (2013).

I'll drop DE a note within the next few days about updating the Fiscal Compact table. TDL (talk) 04:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

The reference data would be the same for all countries, though. I mean the reference values in the criteria. So, the reference values in Template:Euro convergence criteria (2013) should be the same as the ones in the general template... I mean, the reference values, i.e. criteria are the same for everyone, even if it was only checked if Latvia fulfills them. I think this is obvious.

As far as I remember, the argument with Danish Expert was about these values... So, well, since the 2013 criteria values are newer than the ones included in the Template:Euro convergence criteria and more formal, we could replace them. Then, we should also update each country's current values, as these are published monthly, as far as I remember.

What I overall suggest is this: Keep and make templates per 2 (or 1) years as "Euro convergence criteria (year)" with all the official values (for criteria and per country), while keeping the general|"Euro convergence criteria" template updated to last 2 (or 1) years' official reference values and the latest published statistics per country each month or year. I suggest this if there is some notability in keeping old criteria and country values, otherwise, keep only the general "Euro convergence criteria" updated to last 2 (or 1) years' official reference values and the latest published statistics per country; and include any relevant tables for euro accession, fulfilling the criteria, in each country's euro article. Heracletus (talk) 13:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I saw for example how the 2012 template was used here: Hungary and the euro#ERM-II membership, so, perhaps, we could agree to keep the last two (or 3 or whatever else number you may suggest) official reports or criteria references, just to indicate how close a country currently is or was to being able to join the eurozone? Following this approach, however, perhaps, it would be better to make templates per country, rather than per year? Heracletus (talk) 14:08, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, so you're suggesting that we use the 2013 ECB report for the reference values and eurostat for the country specific values? It's always dangerous to use different data sets to draw conclusions. The ECB and eurostat seem to use different methodologies and consequently arrive at different results. For example, the ECB concluded that Latvia's 2012 deficit was 1.2%, while eurostat says 1.3%. Though as long as we include some sort of disclaimer about this it's probably a good estimate of compliance.

I think that the ECB report figures are significant enough to be retained (at least for the still-converging states). In fact, I think it would be nice to create tables for the old reports back to pre-1999 to show for example Greece's convergence on Greek euro coins. But that would be a lot of work... In general, I agree with your plan for annual templates. That's actually what I've been doing: 2013, 2012. But I guess my question is what to do with the general template. The issue is that we have updated country-specific values but no updated reference values. Is it really meaningful to compare an April 2013 reference value with a January 2014 country specific value? I'm not sure it is. If we decided that it's not, then making the general template a redirect to the most recent annual template is probably the best alternative. TDL (talk) 20:32, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, after thinking about it why don't we just scrap the reference values entirely from the general template? They are already included in the annual templates. That way, Hungary could have the following rows: 2012 ECB references; 2012 ECB Hungary; 2013 ECB reference; 2013 eurostat Hungary; current eurostat Hungary. That way we don't have to draw conclusions on whether the current values meet the criteria, but we can still provided the most up to date data so readers can see the trends. TDL (talk) 21:39, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I get your point. I agree with your 20:32 comment, that "making the general template a redirect to the most recent annual template is the best alternative" if we can not agree to use a second-hand reference for the monthly calculation of the reference values. In last years discussion we had about the reference values for Latvia, I was able to dig up monthly calculations of the "ECB reference values" performed by the Polish Ministry of Finance. My suggestion however goes, that while acknowledging its only a second-hand source, it is still good enough to actually being used as a source for the reported reference values for the "Euro convergence table". They perform the same calculation approach and method, being used by ECB, although there it is true that from time to time they might arrive at different results if some of the countries are considered as outliers by ECB - while for unknown reasons not being treated as outliers by the Polish Ministry of Finance. But as long as we make a short note for this in the table, I think its acceptable enough to use the "Polish source" for the contemporary data (the current table), and then of course only the "ECB source" for the "archived" yearly tables. Danish Expert (talk) 17:13, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

For the moment, I am unfortunately out of time to update the Euro convergence table and "Fiscal compact article", Heracletus have asked us to help update. I am involved in a big project -due in April 2014- that eat up all my time. I expect to be back as an active editor on the two article chapters: around May 2014. In both cases it will also coincide with EC's spring forecast report and the new ECB convergence report, so I guess there will be plenty of update work at that time around. I think it is okay to wait with the update work of the "Fiscal compact" article until May 2014. In regards of updating the euro "convergence table 2013", I agree with Heracletus that this should be created ASAP. In regards of the values, I can reveal ECB and Eurostat are using the exact same method. So its perfectly OK to compare "ECB reference values" with "Eurostat HICP+Interest rate" figures, while in regards of the "budget deficit figures" it is importan only to use the 2012 budget deficit figures reported by the "EC spring forecast report 2013" (because these figures are 100% identical with the figures ECB refers to when they make their evaluation in May 2013 - they are using and referring to the same "source data"). If you do not have time to create it now, I can help out create it in May 2014. But if you have time, please go ahead. :-) Best regards, Danish Expert (talk) 17:13, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, I forgot about that Polish source! If we can get up to date estimates of the reference values from them, then that would be a relevant comparison for the eurostat data (provided there is some note as you suggest) so I'd support that. I'll see what I can dig up over the next few days.

And I think I see part of my confusion with the eurostat/ECB comparison. The eurostat data is measured after the fact rather than the projections used by the ECB/Commission forecast for the current year. But even if I look at the 2012 ECB Report for Latvia's 2010 deficit (-8.2%) versus eurostat (-8.1%) there is still a discrepancy. Any idea why the ECB report doesn't use the eurostat data for PAST years?

I guess this raises another issue as well in that, as I understand it, both the previous year's measured and next year's projected debt/deficit must be less than the reference values to qualify. At least that's what I get from reading: "3% for the ratio of the planned or actual government deficit to gross domestic product at market prices". Maybe we should have both listed? TDL (talk) 19:24, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, I can say that I support templates per country for each country's euro article, and then perhaps a template with all the countries but only for the current year or past year for the convergence criteria article and other articles needing the current data. This would also mean renaming Greek euro coins into Greece and the euro and so on. Now, about which data to use and why they differ, I cannot say I know or have an opinion on it. Heracletus (talk) 03:40, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I rewrote the template a while back so that it can be used on both the country pages and the convergence criteria article. It's smart enough to know what data to display. So I think the simplest solutions is a template for each ECB report (displayed only on the country pages) and a general one with the most recent data (displayed on the convergence criteria article). I'll start a thread at Template_talk:Euro convergence criteria with a To Do list for updating when I get a chance.

And yes, I'd support the renaming of the euro coin articles to more general titles. TDL (talk) 06:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism

If I enclose all your posts in hatnotes of "Trolling", will you consider it vandalism? Because you just did something like that here: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3AEuropean_Fiscal_Compact&diff=593789342&oldid=593787388 . I understand you need to provoke me to argue more with you, but that is exactly what I accused you of. Heracletus (talk) 22:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)