Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:01, 5 February 2014

Archives

/2007 •

/2008 1 - 3

/Archive 4

/Archive 2009 January

/Archive 2009 February

/Archive 2009 March

/Archive 2009 April

/Archive 2009 May

/Archive 2009 June

/Archive 2009 July

/Archive 2009 September

/Archive 2009 October

/Archive 2009 November

/Archive 2009 December

/Archive 2010 January

/Archive 2010 February

/Archive 2010 March

/Archive 2010 April

/Archive 2010 May

/Archive 2010 June

/Archive 2010 July

/Archive 2010 August

/Archive 2010 September

/Archive 2010 October

/Archive 2010 November

/Archive 2010 December

/Archive 2011 January

/Archive 2011 February

/Archive 2011 March

/Archive 2011 April

/Archive 2011 May

/Archive 2011 June

/Archive 2011

/Archive 2012

/Archive 2013

Superheater

Hi Andy, Please stop undoing the edits on Superheater and take the time to read the text. Unsaturated steam and wet steam are the same thing. When I first read the article, it was confusing, which is why I took the time to edit it. The revised text should be clearer to everyone. Jonathan 123987 talk 00:34, 26 January 2014

FYI

Hi Andy. If you're not happy with the way user Wereith totally screwed you over recently over that non-free rendering of an engine, perhaps you could get your own back by exposing what many Misplaced Pages admins seem to be completely unwilling to even acknowledge (and which some others, like BlackKite, seem to be actively assisting in covering up) - Wereith is none other than the banned user Betacommand. He has all the same behavioural flaws, the same binary perception of policy, all the same interests, he even has the same retarded grasp of English (where instead of were for example). What he did to you is exactly what Betacommand used to do - whenever he is caught in a lie he simply ignores it and changes tack to another argument. The others in the debate didn't question it because they all already know, or at least suspect, that this is Beta returned, and so pulling Wereith up on such things would be as much of a waste of time now as it was with Beta. While he is undoubtedly right in many cases, even in spite of that, his entire approach is extremely damaging to Misplaced Pages. The number of users who end up completely disillusioned with the project or come away with the completely wrong idea about what policy on non-free imagery says, due to this arrogant, confrontational and frankly clueless wannabe robot approach, is huge. The community (and multiple arbcoms) has already expended a massive amount of time getting to that conclusion once in order to finally ban him, it really shouldn't have to repeat the same process again on the obviously flawed assumption that Wereith is a brand new user (and even if people doubt he is Wereith, they cannot ignore the obvious, that he is definitely not a brand new user). I've tried to raise this issue before in various ways, but as I'm sure you know - on Misplaced Pages the policy that matters above all others is WP:SOCK - anyone like me who makes a complaint without any identifiable history behind them, is automatically ignored, no matter how serious or damaging it would be if their allegations turned out to be correct (granted, this isn't Watergate, but as far as time-sink disruptive users go, Betacommand was top of the tree). As such, don't be too surprised if this is the only communication I am able to send on this account. The only way that Beta is going to be stopped is if an established user like your good self files an SPI on Wereith. It won't find any technical evidence I'm sure, as Beta knew all about how CU works, but as long as you make it a good one and fill it with plenty of diffs covering all the similarities - general behaviour, approach to dispute resolution (edit warring, battling), policy knowledge (or lack of), areas of interest (and the complete lack of interest in writing at all), the writing style - I'm sure a block would be forthcoming based on the deafening sound of quacking that it would expose. He might claim that the fact Wereith uploads non-free media (book covers, one of the tiny class of non-free media that is de facto acceptable) shows he is not Beta - but that activity stopped abruptly a while back - so it was clearly just a cover story, if you'll excuse the pun. His increased levels of arrogance and sarcasm to others (such as yourself in that NFCR), show that he clearly thinks he has gotten away with it, and is now not even really trying to suppress his true identity, so this is more than overdue. Arnhem 96 (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Actually, could the reason he was exceptionally rude to you in the NFCR be that he maybe remembers you as a previous critic? Had you ever supported one of the countless block/ban proposals of Beta? Or had similar non-free image disputes with him? (I'd check for myself, but the archive search facility isn't much help in trying to verify that easily). Arnhem 96 (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I question though whether this really changes the position much.

The problem is not who such an editor is, but rather what they're doing. WP culture prioritises the slavish observance of rules over the value that such actions generate. There doesn't seem to be any reluctance at NFCR to join in with such behaviour. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:04, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Unbelievably I'm not blocked yet, so I'll respond. NFCC enforcement on Misplaced Pages has its problems, yes, but what you need to realise is that, due to his OCD level of interest in the activity and the many and varied behavioural problems that are unique to him, Beta will always have a massively disproportionate affect on Misplaced Pages as regards the perception, and indeed practice, of NFCC enforcement. While others will follow his lead while he is here, if he is not, then except perhaps Black Kite and Hammersoft (who is no longer an issue as he has decided to 'retire' from the activity out of frustration at not getting his way often enough, something he reminds everyone of at any opportunity), believe it or not, most of the other people who frequent venues like NFCR really wouldn't dare to treat you like an asshole just because you have a different view. And they certainly wouldn't dare to edit war against you or otherwise ignore you if there were other editors involved and shared your view (obviously, like all areas of Misplaced Pages, even in ideal conditions, interpreting NFCC is at heart always going to be a numbers game). The problem with Beta is, the existence of other editors never makes any difference. If he thinks an image fails NFCC, he will never ever change that view, no matter what. The fact he simply ignored you when you pointed out it was not an actual picture of an engine was no accident. The same tactic plays out day after day with Beta. Much like a robot, the tactics he uses against the people who challenge his view are all very predictable, and all entirely unaffected by what anyone else says. His behaviour is, at its core, the very antithesis of what collaborative editing is supposed to be all about. Imagine the effect that has on Misplaced Pages when the same thing happens to editors who are simply trying to improve Misplaced Pages with non-free imagery, day after day, sometimes multiple times a day, due to the script assisted industrial scale of his activities. It doesn't matter how many people disagree with him, it doesn't matter how many warnings he receives, it doesn't matter how many people tell him his approach is totally counter productive, in any situation like that he will still believe he is in the right, and everyone else is wrong. That is why you really need to expose the fact that, in defiance of an arbcom ban, he has just returned to Misplaced Pages and picked up where he left off. Because just like Beta, he is apparently not going to stop until every single instance of the use of a non-free image on Misplaced Pages adheres to his personal interpretation of 'policy' (and as far as Beta goes, policy is what you call any policy, guideline, essay or years old discussion between two people that supports his view). Other people can be reasoned with, or will at least respect consensus. Beta cannot. He must be exposed and therefore returned to his well-deserved and more than earned state of persona non-grata, for the sake of Misplaced Pages. Arnhem 96 (talk) 18:14, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Andy, I'm disappointed to see you still wasting time trying to deal with Wereith as if he is just another user. I cannot stress to you enough just how futile that will be for you - you only need to look at how many times Betacommand brushed off warnings/blocks and even a couple of arbitration cases, how many different users tried and failed to get through to him or get admins to force him to comply with the basic norms of discussion and consensus. It went on for years before he was finally banned, and even then it involved numerous trips to ANI with countless episodes of wiki-lawyering as he bent and stretched his well earned restrictions. You only have two choices here if you're interested in your own sanity - either file an SPI, or completely ignore him. Trust me when I say that if he thinks you are wrong, even when (and especially when) you're right, nothing else matters. Nothing. Even in the unlikely event you prevail in any particular dispute, he will never ever admit he was wrong. And he will simply wait a few months and try the same edit again, hoping nobody notices. You will only save yourself and Misplaced Pages from repeating this entire years long farce again by exposing the fact he is a ban evading sock. I notice you think you don't have any hard evidence - you have to realise that you do - the sheer amount of similarities between the two users is effectively hard evidence as far as SPI goes. I've seen people banned as WP:DUCKs on much weaker cases than this, I really have. At the very least, the very least, he needs to be confronted with the fact that he is very clearly not a brand new user, so if he is not Beta, what is his explanation for that (per WP:SOCK, he is expected to have an actual answer for that, even if it is given to arbcom in secret). If I can't convince you, I'm also informing SlimVirgin (talk · contribs), who he is also having issues with, maybe you can collaborate if you're not willing to file an SPI on your own? I am still amazed I am still not blocked, but as I become more visible, it's only a matter of time - then it will be down to you. Arnhem 96 (talk) 20:07, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

And just to re-iterate - right now, the guy is calling you, an editor who registered in 2007, an incompetent dick. That's pretty strong words from a guy who registered in 2012, and only started editing in any great volume this time last year. Yet he claims to "know complexity of NFCC far far more than you do." I wonder how. I wonder how a guy ends up knowing all about NFCC in just under a year, yet has not grasped the inevitable consequences of calling an editor of your experience and service, an incompetent dick (and obviously I'm not talking about NPA, but the intended meaning if someone was properly invoking those two links). I'll tell you how - this behaviour is the result of the exact same mental illness or developmental issue that used to cause Betacommand to do the exact same thing. The guy is making an absolute mug out of you with this crap. And if you indulge him in it by simply exchanging 3RR templates and nasty words, I have to say, you are being a bit of a mug. If he is no longer interested in merely trying to pretend to be a brand new user, if as it seem he now wants to actively take the piss out of you on the basis you both know he is Beta returned, you need to hit him where it hurts - I have no doubt he was devastated when he finally got banned, because he is simply addicted to Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately for him, a lot of people spent an awful lot of time coming to the conclusion that, in his case, Misplaced Pages is not therapy, and his continued presence was not required for at least a year. (I cannot believe I also forgot to mention Betacommand has form for socking around blocks - see User:Quercus basaseachicensis). Arnhem 96 (talk) 20:49, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello Andy. Once again I have to stress to you to not even try to interact with Werieth on the assumption he is a normal editor - you are seriously just wasting your time. I note the filing of SPI, and beefing this up with diffs really is the only way you will ever get rid of this guy for good. I can provide you with some, but you can see form the attitude of some admins that they are not going to let me stick around to do a proper job. Here's some to be getting on with. You should remember, Beta used the main identities Betacommand and later "Δ" (Delta). He also had various socks (see Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Betacommand), the investigations of which might yield further diffs.

Regarding the obsession with NFCC enforcement, it should be sufficient to just link to a few 500 page views of random months for each account, but here's Werieth confirming it his own words in a brilliant way as well (in the context of how relatively new that account is): "I have done thousands of non-free image enforcement edits"

• Side interests in technical areas, and gnoming & script editing:

Werieth (huge run of expand book citation edits) (a perfect example - in 500 edits, as well as mass NFC enforcement, we also see contributions to village pump (tech)/bot request/spam blacklist project pages, as well as mass AWB edits, mass reference/external link edits (obviously script assisted editing). It shouldn't really be necessary to convince anyone that Beta was totally obsessed with technical matters and script/bot editing, but if anyone asks, you'll be able to find similar examples in their contribs quite easily

• affection for casting opposition as harassment

Werieth Betacommand Δ

• affection for casting opposition as people who merely hate NFCC 'shooting the messenger'

Werieth Δ Betacommand

• Habit of directing people to the 'third door on the left" when seeking to avoid discussing an NFC issue any further with an opponent

Werieth Δ

• Using where instead of were:

Werieth Δ Betacommand https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Betacommand/20090701#July_2009

By way of showing that their response to short term blocks - completely ignore, don't complain/appeal or even acknowledge, just wait it out, then resume the bad behaviour where they left off, is the same, then you can refer to these two as examples:

• Betacommand

blocked for 24 hours for 3RR on 06:42, 3 June 2008 (blocked indef 2 days later, for edit warring)

• Werieth

blocked for 48 hours for 3RR on 17:38, 3 December 2013 (resumed edit warring soon aftwerwards)

One thing I also noticed today - notice the way Wereith deceptively changed the header you used on his talk page into something that belittles/attacks the original poster - I'm sure Betacommand has done that before, but I'm finding it hard to track down an example. Although I might be thinking of Beta's long time admirer/defender Hammersoft - he absolutely loved doing that as far as I can remember. He used to love altering headers to things like 'Trolling by ...'.

It's great news that someone has noticed the timings of the account creations - it's all damning when considered alongside everything else - especially as Wereith's defence is still just the lame point about how he uploads book covers (one of the few classes of non-free imagery that are accepted, no questions, so are not likely to be the target of someone like Beta) - you should point out in the SPI that, as I predicted, he only resumed those uploads recently after a long recess, coincidentally at the same time as he was yet again being likened to Betacommand.

Here's another interesting thing - Betacommand was obviously fully conversant with SPI procedures (in his later years he even ran a bot for the clerks). So, it's interesting that after just a few months editing, Werieth was at ease with filing SPI reports himself investigations/Expatkiwi/Archive . The first one is from Jan 2013, just a few months into his Misplaced Pages career.

Here's another interesting thing too - years ago Betacommand used to run a bot which did various NFCC enforcement tasks, but it was so crap, and he was such a retard when it comes to dealing with other people (i.e. complaints), that it was eventually shut down. Unsurprisingly, he was of the opinion that the bot was superb, not least as it did nothing but enforce policy, and he basically blamed everyone else for the grief and hassle it generated. With that in mind, and given the relative youth of the Wereith account, isn't it strange that he would have formed views like this: . Can Wereith explain at all how/where/when he would form that opinion about bot assisted NFCC editting, given that as far as I know, Betacommand was the last person to have first hand experience of it.

I'm sure if you just peruse the talk page archives you will find plenty of links to give that will support the broader similarities in how they deal with opponents, such as the habit of casting anything on any NFC page as black and white policy, or claiming that every opponent is simply someone who wants to ignore NFC altogether (try and pick examples where that is manifestly not the case). There's not much point me looking for those, as it's almost as much work to explain them to you, as it would be for you to find them and be able to explain them yourself. But I hope I've been clear enough in these posts and elsewhere for you to know what to look for, but the best way will be for you to observe what Wereith does now and look for similarities in Beta's past behaviour - the only thing that's changed is that he is less sweary or a total twat, but the basic approaches to policy/opponents are the same. A few starters could be these - the way Wereith hates it when admins don't help him - and the way Wereith sees edit warring as a necessity, so that people "get the point" . Formal Appointee Number 6 (talk) 22:48, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Source Clarification

Looking for clarification here, you inputted in the List of fictional aircraft article, that "The film aircraft was a modified Handley-Page Halifax/Halton G-AHDM Falmouth. K.A.Merricks book, published in 1980, states: G-AHDM Falmouth went from BOAC to Aviation Traders; then to Westminster Airways; then converted as Reindeer G-AFOH for film No Highway in the Sky" K.A.Merricks is the author? If so what’s the name of the book? FOX 52 (talk) 23:51, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Merrick, not Merricks (there should be an apostrophe there) and it's his book on the Halifax.

Merrick, K.A. (1980). Halifax: An Illustrated History of a Classic World War II Bomber. Ian Allan. ISBN 0711007675.

Andy Dingley (talk) 11:07, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Invitation to Trademark Policy Discussion

Hi Andy!

I noticed that you've contributed to the trademark article on Misplaced Pages. I wanted to reach out to you because the Wikimedia Foundation legal team has just released a draft trademark policy for consultation with the Wikimedia community. The purpose of the new draft is to facilitate permissive use of the Wikimedia trademarks for the community while preserving protection of the marks.

I thought that you may have an interesting perspective to add to this discussion, given your interest in trademark law. I would like to personally invite you to review the new draft and contribute any comments you may have. We plan to keep the discussion open for two months and incorporate the feedback into the final trademark policy. We hope this new version of the policy will make it easier for community members to use the logos to encourage Misplaced Pages editing.

Best,

DRenaud (WMF) (talk) 00:39, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Atomic Demolition munition

Andy, just a heads up, I removed the picture you like putting into the article Atomic Demolition Munition again. The reason being, is that the Sedan crater was caused by a deeply buried thermonuclear device with a yield around 104 kilotons. In contrast to ADM's that would not coake, mistnceivably be deeply buried when in use very often, if at all, as I don't think most targets would allow someone to drill a giant well hole to oblige would be atomic demolition teams. You dig? If you could find a picture of a surface burst or shallow underground nuclear explosion in the 20 to 40 kiloton range, that would be a lot more apt. What do you think? As I've just added one that was ~ 1 kiloton in yield.

83.71.31.96 (talk) 12:47, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

My mistake, I thought that Plowshare Sedan had been one of the ADM series. Just checked in Hansen and it isn't. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:03, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages Library Survey

As a subscriber to one of The Misplaced Pages Library's programs, we'd like to hear your thoughts about future donations and project activities in this brief survey. Thanks and cheers, Ocaasi 15:23, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Green Goddess

Thanks for the Green Goddess picture on Coventry Climax. I am wondering if you have reasons to have placed the pic in the Final Years section, not in the Pre- or Post War. I don't even know what engine type was used on it, so would appreciate your further attention. Yiba (talk) 12:41, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd rather replace it with a picture of the trailer-mounted Godiva pump, rather than the one on the Green Goddess. I didn't put it in any particular section, just restored it, but as the Goddess-specific installation that is post-war, rather than wartime. I would see a specific wartime section as worthwhile; their trailer-mounted fire pumps were a significant part of civil defence planning. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Tank article: Porsche as inventor of torsion bar suspension

Hello. I have created a Talk section on the Tank article to discuss this. Can you please justify crediting Porsche with invention of torsion bar suspension or its use on AFVs? Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vasiliy Fofanov (talk • contribs) 20:51, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Tin box

Hi, just a quick note to say that I've mentioned you here. Horatio Snickers (talk) 17:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help find a resolution. The thread is "Tin box". Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! EarwigBot 17:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

SPI question

Hi Andy, I just saw this question. You'll have to ask Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs) about his reasoning though, I can't speak for him. Alternatively, you could talk to the checkuser team, as they more-or-less have the final say in sockpuppetry investigations. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:54, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Can we get a few things straight?

Before you come out with something like that again.

• Yes, I was a staunch defender of Betacommand. I believe (and still believe now) that he was hounded off the project by a number of users who didn't like his - mostly correct - enforcement of NFCC. At least two of those editors have since been permabanned, and others have disappeared.
• But no, I will not stand for him socking, if he indeed is doing so. My main concern is that the next account that comes along and aggressively enforces NFCC is immediately accused of being Beta (Werieth wouldn't be the first). However, if Werieth is Betacommand, they should be blocked. I actually think, however, that you aren't doing the SPI many favours with our sock friends' "evidence", though - most of it proves nothing. The "Third door on the left" stuff, for example, was a dramaboard meme a few years ago - . You give me some actual evidence that Werieth is Betacommand, and I'll support a block all the way. But not until then. Black Kite (talk) 20:08, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if Werieth is a Betacommand sock or not. I had little to do with Betacommand, I'm not terribly familiar with his style. Personally I see Werieth's behaviour as bad enough of itself to be a problem, whoever he is.

You demand evidence. That's reasonable enough – except that when it comes to Arnhem 96, you're less fussy: At Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#self_admitted_sock you claim that they're blocked: "Oh for goodness sake, Andy. This is a previously checkuser identified blocked editor" Which you then justify with a link to a different editor. Betacommand had a great many editors with a grudge (right or wrong) against them. You can't just extrapolate that because one editor was CU'ed to a blocked editor then all editors acting against Betacommand are the same person! Per AGF, even if you suspect so, you can't act on that basis. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:49, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

But surely you must realise that the evidence is in front of you? An account with that much knowledge of Betacommand's activities is one of two - either a current editor who is hiding their identity (WP:ILLEGIT), or alternatively a blocked or banned editor (WP:SOCK). I don't see any way that this account is not either of the above? (And, to be honest, it's fairly obvious that the CU blocked sock is the same user as this one, even so). If Werieth's behaviour is that bad in itself then surely the preferred location is WP:RFC/U? Black Kite (talk) 19:59, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

"the evidence is in front of " What evidence?, where?

I see good reason to believe that Arnhem 96 is not a new editor. Clearly they dislike Betacommand and Werieth. However that applies to a lot of editors. There is no evidence to link them to any particular editor beyond this. Yet several admins involved in this have persisted in implying that they are. That is factually inaccurate, or as it's called when non-admins do it, "lying".

I do not like socking, nor even alternate accounts (the necessary uses for which are far fewer than those for which they're claimed). I wish that this editor had instead simply emailed me. However what they posted appears accurate. They are diffs: it's a simple matter to verify them. This effort to suppress any discussion of the return of a banned editor is far worse than any minor socking. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:13, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

• Hi, Black Kite (hullo AD). Do you wonder why so many of the people who enforced WP rules against bc when he repeatedly proved that his determination to enforce guidelines was to the detriment of the editing environment and against the consensus of the editorship have since left? Well, I suggest it is because of people not being able to see that edits like this are entirely consistent with the modus operandi of betacommand. I tagged Werieth as a bc sock within weeks of them editing - and had such a fun time at SPI that I went back into retirement. Now I may be no great loss to WP, but how many good admins editors have simply walked away for similar reasons? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:03, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
• Andy, it seems very clear that one of the socks which posted in that SPI is Wikinger. The IP who participated in the discussion linked to the Japanese version of Misplaced Pages:Long-term abuse/Wikinger, which looks like self-identification. I don't know who "Formal Appointee" or "Arnhem" are, except that their behaviour suggests that they are both the same person, and the accounts must obviously belong to someone who has been around for some time. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:57, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Final warning

I have warned you before to stop enabling that sock troll by reposting their material. The troll is clearly engaging in a wiki-hounding agenda, and by colluding with them you are contributing to that wiki-hounding. Proxying for block-evading socks is not legitimate. This goes for any place, including your own talk page. If I see you doing this again, I will block you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 04:01, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion open at WP:DRN

A volunteer has opened the case. Please feel free to proceed with discussion now. Thanks for your patience. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

It appears that Pkgx has aready done with the discussion. Yet again, everyone else is all wrong. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:26, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

(Non-)Strategic Materials in main Mosquito Article

Hi Andy, I removed the livelink to Strategic Materials because no Article on that subject exists. Are you planning to write one? Otherwise, I recommend you should agree to my removal of the square brackets around the term. Best Wishes.Dendrotek 22:55, 20 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dendrotek (talk • contribs)

Please read WP:REDLINK Andy Dingley (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Andy, I've read that. So again, my question - are you going to write an article on Strategic Materials? I might also add, is this an online encyclopedia, or trying to be a rival to the Oxford English Dictionary?!Dendrotek 21:21, 21 December 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dendrotek (talk • contribs)

I've also removed a few red links. It's good form to write the article first, then link it. Thanks. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Either of you are free to write the article yourselves, if you're so keen. Don't let me stand in your way.

If you're so against redlinks, and our long-established practice in this area, then I suggest you take that up at Misplaced Pages talk:Red link or even Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for Deletion/Wikipedia:Red link. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:23, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I looked at the "what links here" on the "strategic materials" red-link article, and every page linking to it is yours. Doing this is not "long-established practice". Please take a moment to read WP:RED, particularly "do not overlink in the mainspace solely for use as an article creation guide. Instead, editors are encouraged to consider Write the article first, or to use WikiProjects or user spaces to keep track of unwritten articles." Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:49, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with the others. It's a bit questionable to extensively redlink an article you haven't yet written. It's much worse to redlink an article you have no plans to write. --Yaush (talk) 16:45, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Glad Tidings and all that ...

FWiW Bzuk (talk) 23:46, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN

Hello, I'm TheRedPenOfDoom. I noticed that you made a change to an article, Treehouse attachment bolt, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so! If you need guidance on referencing, please see the referencing for beginners tutorial, or if you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:49, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Please read the policies you're so fond of relying upon. BURDEN refers to the use of sources to support content within an article. Your claim is instead that a source is invalid; quite a different proposition.

Also please see WP:3RR, as you've already reached it. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:03, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Nutation RfC

Andy, if you really wish to avoid abuse, why did you add a personal attack to the discussion? It would be much better for you to vote and then take the page off your watchlist. That way your voice is heard but you don't get troubled by any rude responses. RockMagnetist (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I think that people have done everything that needs doing. His edit of Nutation was reverted the same day and Op47 asked him to wait for the consensus. The creation of Nutation (engineering) may have been premature, but it doesn't do any harm. After all, even if the merge option were chosen (which seems unlikely now), it would be trivial to change that article to a redirect. For that matter, an unstated fourth choice would be to leave Nutation as it is but make Nutation (engineering) the main page for Nutation#Mechanical engineering. The important thing is that all the material on nutation in engineering has been left intact. RockMagnetist (talk) 16:56, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Andy, by your comments at Talk:Nutation, I see that you think you are being treated unfairly. My main interest is not in this fight between you two, but in keeping the RfC on track. I removed your contribution because you fired the first salvo in this round, and there was nothing constructive about your first comment. I was hoping to prevent another pointless fight. I did reproduce your alert about Nutation (engineering), but in a way that was more neutral and informative. I also put a warning tag on the talk page of the IP editor who added the rude comments here. RockMagnetist (talk) 03:04, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I've refactored this conversation to remove most mention of a 3rd party editor who I have asked not to post here further, and who might be blocked if they do. As a general rule, we should not talk about an editor in good standing in a forum where they cannot respond. If you still need to discuss this other editor, please do so at WP:ANI, or other appropriate forum, not here. Thank you so much for your understanding. Jehochman 14:20, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

OK, then, on that basis I'm happy to agree to your request. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:21, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Please revert your edit

this edit should be reverted and allow someone uninvolved close the discussion. Werieth (talk) 02:15, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Oh? Has consensus at NFCR suddenly changed, that it no longer fails WP:NFCC#8? Andy Dingley (talk) 03:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Until the discussion is closed by an uninvolved user (which you are not, since you filed the NFCR) you shouldnt be removing the file. Your removal of the file before the NFCR has been closed is inappropriate. Werieth (talk) 03:20, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Not a principle you've followed! Andy Dingley (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Please find a NFCR that I opened and also closed? I dont close NFCRs that I have commented on. Werieth (talk) 03:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I refer to your practice of blanket deleting images you object to, with, without or during NFCR. Andy Dingley (talk) 03:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I dont remove files during an active NFCR. And its not blanket removal. Werieth (talk) 03:39, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Inflatable rat

Was it your legendary pettiness or simply some sort of holiday-induced hangover that inspired this? One second of inspection by an educated source suggests the documented rationale is disingenuous at best (the Telegraph has never not been known to relay any right-wing trope carried by the red tops). Generously, you Googled for sources and, finding a bunch of self-reinforcing ones typically considered to be "reliable" by the Twitterati, dumped them en-masse to reinforce the one sentence of non-laughable fact you'd added. I'd suggest that if this were taken to talk, it'd result in removal again. I've thankfully reduced my wasted time on this sort of thing over the last six months; I'd hope you'd help me out in this manner by self-reverting. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 22:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

If you're concerned that these sources are too primary, then I can understand that. I wouldn't trust the Daily Mail to tell me it was Friday, but I do consider it a reliable source for the DM's own soapboxing position that using the rat had turned a union protest into a howling mob. Blanking the lot though and claiming that the Telegraph is an unreliable red top, so untrustworthy as to be deleted on sight, is just ridiculous though. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:31, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Optional end tags

Hi, regarding the sentence "Many tags, especially the closing end tags, are optional." - this implies that all end tags are optional, which is not the case. True, </p> is omitted more often than it is used - but neither the section nor that paragraph are specific to <p>, and that tag is mentioned only once, in the first paragraph. In HTML 5, the list of optional tags is significantly shorter than the list of all elements. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused by your comment, "Elements: the number of elements with mandatory end tags vastly exceeds those where it is optional (COLGROUP DD DT LI OPTION P TD TFOOT TH THEAD TR) even if you count the empty elements (AREA BASE BR COL HR IMG INPUT LINK META PARAM))"

Are we talking about tags (things in documents) or tag types (definition sections in the standard)? In such a case, the number of omitted </p> far exceeds any number of tag types listed. My point is that the tags which can be and are ignored altogether (like <tbody>) just aren't an important issue for HTML coders or even numerically common, in comparison to the case (above all) of omitting <p /> to explicitly close an element. The common case, vis "especially" is this omitted closure.

As for <br>, that end tag isn't omitted, it's not even permitted. Of course any agent will silently ignore such as error as providing one (esp. for Appendix C reasons), but the standard is still clear that </br> isn't merely optional, it's wrong. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

In my edit summary, the text "Elements:" is in grey so it's the section heading, not my comment. I was also constrained by the 255-byte limit of the ref summary, so for brevity I listed only those tags which were in HTML 4 and ignored the new ones for HTML 5. In HTML 4, the various elements may be divided into two main groups. The first comprises thirteen empty elements, where the start tag is mandatory, but there is neither content nor an end tag; these elements are AREA BASE BR COL HR IMG INPUT LINK META PARAM (plus FRAME, only found where frames are used, and the deprecated elements BASEFONT ISINDEX). The second group comprises the enclosures, each comprising start tag, content, and end tag. In four cases (BODY HEAD HTML TBODY) both start and end tags are optional; in eleven cases (COLGROUP DD DT LI OPTION P TD TFOOT TH THEAD TR) the start tag is mandatory but the end tag is optional; and in the remainder (A ABBR ACRONYM ADDRESS B BDO BIG BLOCKQUOTE BUTTON CAPTION CITE CODE DEL DFN DIV DL EM FIELDSET FORM H1 H2 H3 H4 H5 H6 I INS KBD LABEL LEGEND MAP NOSCRIPT OBJECT OL OPTGROUP PRE Q SAMP SCRIPT SELECT SMALL SPAN STRONG STYLE SUB SUP TABLE TEXTAREA TITLE TT UL VAR plus FRAMESET IFRAME NOFRAMES (frames) APPLET CENTER DIR FONT MENU S STRIKE U (deprecated)), both start and end tags are mandatory. Of the elements deprecated in HTML 4.01, three (MENU S U) are no longer deprecated in HTML 5.

So out of about 115 different elements defined in the HTML 4 standard, there are 28 where an end tag is either optional or invalid, giving 87 where the end tag is mandatory. This is what I meant by "the number of elements with mandatory end tags vastly exceeds those where it is optional". The phrase that I used later "even if you count the empty elements" refers to including the 13 empty elements among those which do not have a mandatory end tag.

To return to the sentence "Many tags, especially the closing end tags, are optional." the "many tags" here totals just 19: the start and end tags for BODY HEAD HTML TBODY (i.e. 8 tags) and the end tags for COLGROUP DD DT LI OPTION P TD TFOOT TH THEAD TR (11). I therefore feel that "many tags" is significantly overstating it. --Redrose64 (talk) 01:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I think we're coming at this from different directions here: you're counting the types of tag, I'm counting their incidence in documents.

I have little interest within this scope in the <thead> case. It's a high level article, that's obscure. I don't think it really belongs there. What I'm more interested in is the hugely common issue of omitting </p> (and maybe </li>) because the ETAG is genuinely optional and implied by the DTD content rules. That's what I think needs mention here. If you have any other forms of wording that would make this clearer, then I'm not attached to the current form of words, but I do think the emphasis should stay on the very common tags that require the start tag but make their end tags optional. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know why you're singling out <thead>, I only mentioned it as part of a list that would otherwise be incomplete. The impression that I don't want to give is that the end tags for commonly-used elements (like <a>...</a> <div>...</div> <h1>...</h1> <i>...</i> <table>...</table> <ul>...</ul>) are optional, when they are definitely mandatory. Browsers vary in the methods that they use for coping with these elements if they are found not to be closed. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Panzer II

You reverted to a DAB link. Perhaps you can fix this. Dougweller (talk) 14:35, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

We don't have a better target. Drivetrains aren't the same thing as powertrains, and in this case drivetrain is significantly correct (lack of new engine developments became as big a problem for Germany in the late war as they had been for the UK in the early years.). Really we need an article at drivetrain (drivetrain) (or better, move drivetrain to drivetrain (disambiguation). Andy Dingley (talk) 15:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

No problem. All I was really doing is correcting a spelling correction, someone changed it to "drive train". Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 18:44, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For preventing Bible translations into the languages of China from being quietly blanked. Thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:38, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Thankyou, I hope both articles may flourish. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Mr Whoppit

The article Mr Whoppit has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

all the "sources" are of absolutely non reliable kind

While all constructive contributions to Misplaced Pages are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:15, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Mr Whoppit for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Mr Whoppit is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Mr Whoppit until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Gaunless Bridge

Hi there, I'm pleased to inform you that I've begun reviewing the article Gaunless Bridge you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of ТимофейЛееСуда -- ТимофейЛееСуда (talk) 22:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Gaunless Bridge

The article Gaunless Bridge you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Gaunless Bridge for things which need to be addressed. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of ТимофейЛееСуда -- ТимофейЛееСуда (talk) 17:02, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Gaunless Bridge

The article Gaunless Bridge you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:Gaunless Bridge for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of ТимофейЛееСуда -- ТимофейЛееСуда (talk) 00:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The No Spam Barnstar
	Thanks for prodding the relatively tiny New Apostolic Church in India. Bearian (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Coke (fuel)

Andy: How is my edit vandalizing? ~~Junvfr <~_~> (talk) 23:22, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi your edit certainly wasn't vandalism and no-one is calling it that. However coke isn't mined either: coal is mined, then coal is turned into coke in a coking oven on the surface. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

ani 3rr

You're aware of WP:3RR, right? NE Ent 19:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I can count:

I'm sure User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise#Heads up will act equivocally in this, now that he's been canvassed for his support. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I did not canvas anyone, FPaS was the one who gave you the last warning in regards to you proxying for a sockpuppet. I felt it appropriate to give them a heads up that your behavior has continued despite the warnings that where given. Werieth (talk) 20:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)