Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:18, 8 February 2014

Welcome!

Welcome to Misplaced Pages, Yatzhek! I am LouriePieterse and have been editing Misplaced Pages for quite some time. I just wanted to say hi and welcome you to Misplaced Pages! If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a message on my talk page or by typing {{helpme}} at the bottom of this page. I love to help new users, so don't be afraid to leave a message! I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

• Introduction
• The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
• How to edit a page
• Help pages
• How to write a great article
• Manual of Style

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Oh yeah, I almost forgot, when you post on talk pages you should sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); that should automatically produce your username and the date after your post. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Again, welcome!

LouriePieterse (talk) 18:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

"Whigger" and Poles

I'm sorry, I read the source you use, and it neither shows research or common usage. It's just one guy's essay, with no references to works that can verify it. It may be interesting to you, and I am sure it would be if it was more than just speculation, but its currency in the English language is low to nonexistent in common parlance, and as it stands it is not of encyclopedic interest for this article. Perhaps you can start an article on this topic and see where it leads you. Right now it's just no good in the list of ethnic slurs. Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 12:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

RE: Well, I saw it on the internet many times when ppl used to call Poles that nasty way and this article somehow confirms the reality..

Thank you for your Poland-related contributions

Hello and welcome Suppcuzz! Thank you for your contributions related to Poland. You may be interested in visiting Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Poland, joining the project, joining our discussions and sharing your creations with our community.

--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 17:50, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Nationalism

Would you be so kind and leave your polish nationalism out of the Misplaced Pages! Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.4.72.119 (talk) 19:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

--Yatzhek (talk) 20:38, 19 February 2013 (UTC) Show me an example. You see, the one who is spreading nationalism accross the internet is you. People such as you can't understand that being a patriot doesn't mean being nationalist. Educate yourself, and then verify your antagonistic attitude toward Polish people. Racist.

Categories

Stop to remove a WP:SORTKEY now! And read WP:Overcategorization at last (you can start from reading what your compatriots know about it), not to argue with me about whether is it present or no. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 14:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Do you understand what is sort key? Or you possibly do not understand why may you not ruin it? And I explained you already: there should be no category: racism in anti-Polish sentiment! Incnis Mrsi (talk) 16:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Ethnic Poles - Aryans?

Please stop adding unsourced text into articles. I reverted the recent edit on Black people in Nazi Germany because Poles were not regarded as "racially non-Aryan" nor does the source given state that.  Fixed

Ethnic Poles, like all Europeans were Aryan. Poles were put into the "Aryan side" of ghettos and the Ahnenpaß used Poles as an example of an Aryan.--Windows66 (talk) 20:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

You are extremely wrong by saying that Poles were pure Aryan! The "ladder/pyramid of races" according the Nazi Germany looked like this, from the bottom to the top: Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Serbs, Blacks, Mulattos, Rusyns and other Slavic peoples (excluding for example some Ukrainians who formed UPA, and some of the Croats who formed Ustasi and were collaborating with the Germans on the same basis as Italians did. Sove Slavs were deemed to have some Germanic Goth blood in them). Sounth-Europeans were in the middle of the pyramid (excluding Italians who were facist collaborants). The Japanese people for example, despite being Asian, were seen as the "honorary Aryans", mostly for political reasons. Apart from that, racially, the Germanic nations were near the top of the "racial pyramid", and ethnic Germans were the top "master race". It's you, who is trying to change the historical facts and manipulate them. The fact was that POLES, as well as other European Slavic peoples WERE CALLED "SUBHUMAN" and POLISH PEOPLE WERE CONSIDERED "DIRTY MASSES FROM THE EAST" as Germans called them. What's more, Germans claimed that Poles are "half-Arian mutts" that's why they were put on the "Arian side" of the ghetto! Poles had always been way darker than Germans, but the young Polish children who happened to be blonde were "a good subject for Germanization" according to the Racial policy of Nazi Germany, but most of Poles were not to be exterminated completely, but rather enslaved. The very same situation as in case of Black Africans in the Nazi Germany. Read about it, and then talk about it. Yatzhek (talk) 13:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, you didn't need to create a new section on my talk page but could have just replied via your own talk page here on the section I created. You have it all wrong, all Europeans were regarded by the law as "racially equal". I think you are confusing "Aryan" with "master race", the Aryan race was all Europeans, the master race (Herrenvolk) was the Germanic peoples.

Poles were actually given as examples of 'Aryans' in the Ahnenpaß/Ahnenpass ("ancestors passport") when the Nuremberg Laws became enforced.

Aryan is thus the one man who looked free from, the German people, strange racial impact is blood. Deemed to be a stranger here, especially the blood of the living room and in the European settlement of Jews and Gypsies, the Asian and African breeds, and the aborigines of Australia and America (Indians), while, for example, a Swede or an Englishman, a Frenchman or Czech, a Pole or Italian, if he is free of such, even that is foreign blood strikes, when used, must therefore be considered severally liable, he may now live in his home, in East Asia or in America or he likes a U.S. citizen or a South American Free State be." German: "Arischer Abstammung ist demnach derjenige Mensch, der frei von einem, vom deutschen Volk ausgesehen, fremdrassischen Bluteinschlag ist. Als fremd gilt hier vor allem das Blut der auch im europäischen Siedlungsraum lebenden Juden und Zigeuner, das der asiatischen und afrikanischen Rassen und der Ureinwohner Australiens und Amerikas (Indianer), während z. B. ein Engländer oder ein Schwede, ein Franzose oder Tscheche, ein Pole oder Italiener, wenn er selbst frei von solchen, auch ihm fremden Blutseinschlägen ist, als verwandt, also als arisch gelten muß, mag er nun in seiner Heimat, in Ostasien oder in Amerika wohnen oder mag er Bürger der USA oder eines südamerikanischen Freistaates sein.

— Vokabular des Nationalsozialismus

The reason Poles were placed into the 'Aryan side' in the ghettos because they were "Aryan". In fact, Poles were separated from Jews for this exact reason, any Poles found giving help to Jews or having any sort of relations with them were given the death penalty. Can you please provide me a quote from a speech or document that called the Poles a "dirty masses from the east"? Nothing here is manipulating history or anything, in fact that is what many of the historians and authors have done with the Nazis policy on the Slavs, although some still speak the truth. All Europeans INCLUDING Slavs were 'Aryan':

Albert Gorter, a prominent minister official gave the definition of Aryan as: The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race);they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd). Non-Aryans are therefore: 1. the members of two other races, namely the Mongolian (yellow) and the Negroid (black) races; 2. the members of the two other branches of the Caucasian race, namely the Semites (Jews, Arabs) and Hamites (Berbers). The Finns and the Hungarians belong to the Mongoloid race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans. Thus . . . the non-Jewish members of the European Volk are Aryans. . . .

— The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution.

The Poles that were sent to be Germanized were not classified as ethnic Poles but ethnic Germans living in the eastern land, that is why they were kidnapped and forcefully Germanized, this a completely different thing altogether. Now its up to you to provide evidence that they were "non-Aryan" (as well as proving a speech or document that states they were "dirty masses from the east").--Windows66 (talk) 09:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC) Also please don't accuse me of "manipulating historical facts", this can be regarded as a WP:PA.--Windows66 (talk) 09:58, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Please stop littering my wall with tons of information which you don't understand. Why did you delete "ethnic Poles" as the ones who suffered as Blacks during the German regime, while you left "Gypsies/Romani" untouched? A little did you know, Gypsies were even more "Aryan" than Germans and Scandinavians! Haa! Surprised? http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/gypsies.html Hitler had a big problem with them, so he figured out a story, that Gypsies are in fact from the Aryan tribe, but are not pure enough and were expelled from India with disgrace on them, and that they deserve to die as a betraitors of Aryan blood. You totally consuse "White" with "Aryan" and you produce your own theories. Poles AT THE TIME, as almost all Slavs, were regarded as half-Aryan with the West-Asian admixture from the Caucasus, Iran and Afghanistan. "The masses from the East" is what Germans called all Slavic people generally, along with the Jews, Gypsies, Armenians etc. The reason why Poles were not destined to die at first, is that they were considered to have some good portion of Aryan blood but mixed with Asian/Indo-Iranian blood. Only Germans were "Aryans" in terms of GERMAN NAZI rules. I know Poles might have a great part of Aryan genes in them, but this is what science says. And the Nazi Germans said someting different and here is my point. DONT CONFUSE the SCIENTIFIC data with NAZI DOCTRINES! By the way - Why did you start the talk about the Poles as "Aryans", while the article is about Black people in Nazi Germany and ethnic Poles (which means non-Jewish Poles) were given as an example of being persecuted, but not perished completely as Jews? PS - did you know that millions of people died during the Shoa, while 6 milion were Jews, 2 million were ethnic Poles, over half-a-million were Romani (Gypsies), and the rest were other ethnicities? https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Holocaust#Non-Jewish - How dare you discredit the Polish suffering during the Shoa by saying that Poles were treated as Aryans? https://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust_victims - Hope you read the whole of my message and educate yourself. Thank you. Yatzhek (talk) 13:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Yatzhek, Windows66 has removed referenced information from the Nazism article and has chose to engage in discussion on the talk page. Would you be interested in participating? -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I am interested. How can I join and how can I see the referrenced informaion that were deleted? PS - I suggest that this user is very dangerous for the Misplaced Pages reliability. He deletes everything that is about the Polish suffering during the WWII. Yatzhek (talk) 13:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Windows66 quotes author Artur Silgailis, former chief of staff of the Latvian Waffen-SS: "... By inventing such posts Jewish writer performs a social order, fomenting bestial hatred of everything German, and encouraging physically destroy German women and children. ... the Slavic peoples, and, of course, the Russian people were officially recognized in the Reich racially related, fraternal ethnic groups. What is the meaning to destroy their brethren..." Seems like blatant anti-Semitism and revisionist history of the worst kind to me. Even so, it is still better to assume good faith. Discussion on the talk page: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nazism#Slavic_peoples, https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Nazism#Poles -- Tobby72 (talk) 13:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

@Yatzhek - what I have posted is genuine text from the Nazi documents themselves, if it goes against what you want to believe then tough luck. The reason I left the Gypsies is because them along with Jews were classified as "enemies of the state" because of their blood, unlike ethnic Poles. The Nuremberg Laws classified the Gypsies as "racial enemies", this was not the case with the Poles.

When you start putting in text like "Only Germans were "Aryans" in terms of GERMAN NAZI rules." then you show your own ignorance, 'Aryan' included more than just Germans but all Europeans, including the Poles. I have even showed you - Poles were placed into the 'Aryan side'.

We are not here to discuss the Holocaust, the number of victims nor the persecution of the Poles but rather that Poles Aryans (hence the section title), they were placed into the 'Aryan side', they were Aryans and the source given does not say Poles were "racially non-Aryan" - in fact, I've found no sources that state this hence why it will continue to be removed.

I am still waiting for you to provide me a document or speech from any Nazis saying Poles were "dirty masses from the east".

In your next reply do not bother ranting to me accusing me of complete nonsense but actually provide me some sources in stating what you say, so far you need to prove to me...

• Poles were "racially non-Aryan" - the source given does not state this.

• Poles were "dirty masses from the east".

• Only Germans were "Aryans" according to the Nazi ideology.

Go ahead...--Windows66 (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Replying to me with stuff like:

"Please stop littering my wall with tons of information which you don't understand."

"PS - did you know that millions of people died during the Shoa, while 6 milion were Jews, 2 million were ethnic Poles, over half-a-million were Romani (Gypsies), and the rest were other ethnicities? https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Holocaust#Non-Jewish - How dare you discredit the Polish suffering during the Shoa by saying that Poles were treated as Aryans? https://en.wikipedia.org/Holocaust_victims - Hope you read the whole of my message and educate yourself. Thank you."

These are WP:PA - personal attacks is not tolerated on Misplaced Pages, I am educated and understand but you are choosing to ignore my evidence and are replying without any evidence.--Windows66 (talk) 14:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You seem to not actually be willing to discuss the Poles Aryan and the evidence given which is why I am removing your edit of the article, for example the reasons why the ethnic Poles edit is getting removed:

"they were still considered an inferior race on a similar basis as ethnic Poles or Gypsies" - this is also incorrect, firstly no source is given and secondly the Nuremberg Laws defined the Jews, Gypsies and non-Europeans as the racial enemies based as "inferior races", ethnic Poles are not mentioned.

"Blacks were placed at the bottom of the racial scale of non-Aryans along with Jews, Poles, Serbs and Gypsies." - the source given The Holocaust: a reader. by Simone Gigliotti does not mention ethnic Poles as being "non-Aryan".

It's becoming close now to the Misplaced Pages:Three revert rule enforcement.

Your next reply should include sources to the three things I have asked for you to provide and refrain from personally attacking me.--Windows66 (talk) 14:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Please, stop. Just stop. You are saying about Poles being "Aryan" all the time, while the article which started this sensless discussion Black people in Nazi Germany which mentioned the Poles and similar victims, is not about their Arianism, but about the Racial policy of Nazi Germany and the scale of the suffering. You replace THE SOURCED INFORMATION with some highly subjective information, also sourced, but only from one point of view - yours. My source about the "dirty masses from the East" is the book: "Revisiting the National Socialist Legacy: Coming to Terms With Forced Labor, Expropriation, Compensation, and Restitution", page 84 by Oliver Rathkolb. talk - you are hight problematic. And as i see, not only to me, but to manyway more experienced and trustworthy editors of Misplaced Pages. Yatzhek (talk) 15:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

The reason I'm emphasizing about Poles being Aryan is because that is what I am removing from the article.

Revisiting the National Socialist Legacy: Coming to Terms With Forced Labor, Expropriation, Compensation, and Restitution by Oliver Rathkolb mentions no speech or document about Poles being "dirty masses from the east". This discussion does not need to go on any longer, as I can see there is no cooperation.--Windows66 (talk) 15:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oliver Rathkolb, Revisiting the National Socialist Legacy: Coming to Terms With Forced Labor, Expropriation, Compensation, and Restitution, p.84 : "The European peoples to be conquered were hierarchically ranked into alien and Germanic races. Accordingly, there were plans to give Europe a new structure: In Western Europe a work sharing industrial society under German leadership, in the countries of the East, Southeast and later South the exploitation of raw materials and manpower. Being Slavs the Russians, Ukrainians, Poles and Serbs were only slightly above the Jews in the racial hierarchy. Their fate was to be enslavement or death. ... The realisation of these aims began immediately after German troops had entered Poland on September 1, 1939. ... Shortly afterwards, the deportation of civilian workforce - men and women - followed. At the same time, the Nazi-party and the Gestapo launched a campaign against so-called Slavic "Untermenschen" (subhumans) and "human beasts". This campaign even reached the farthest schools." -- Tobby72 (talk) 15:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I've heard all that before from so-called historians and authors, this does not give a speech or document calling Poles "dirty masses from the east". Which is what I asked for. All of that is refuted by Nazi documents anyways, the racial hierarchy placed Slavs equal to the Germans and the ancestors passport and official definition of 'Aryan' proves this. This is not what I asked for though but rather above the several things the user inserted without sources, such as the absurd "Only Germans were Aryans" nonsense.--Windows66 (talk) 15:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Are completely out of your mind? Why are you saying this "Aryan, Aryan, Aryan" thing all the time? This was not the case and you push this topic all the way! I had enough! You deleted the information about ethnic Poles because you dont understand the article Black people in Nazi Germany - ethnic Poles were mention as people who suffered SIMILAR persecutions... or should I say - Blacks suffered similar persecutions to Poles. You are an anti-Polish pseron, hating on this nation, can't stand the fact that Poles were the victims and I think, if you had such power, you would delete all the articles about the Polish suffering and victims of the Would War II. The question is - why? Racism? Antipolonism? Yatzhek (talk) 16:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Administrators' noticeboard

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.--Windows66 (talk) 15:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring policy

Hello, and welcome to Misplaced Pages. You appear to be engaged in an edit war with one or more editors according to your reverts at Black people in Nazi Germany. Although repeatedly reverting or undoing another editor's contributions may seem necessary to protect your preferred version of a page, on Misplaced Pages this is usually seen as obstructing the normal editing process, and often creates animosity between editors. Instead of edit warring, please discuss the situation with the editor(s) involved and try to reach a consensus on the talk page.

If editors continue to revert to their preferred version they are likely to be blocked from editing. This isn't done to punish an editor, but to prevent the disruption caused by edit warring. In particular, editors should be aware of the three-revert rule, which says that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. While edit warring on Misplaced Pages is not acceptable in any amount, breaking the three-revert rule is very likely to lead to a block. Thank you. -- Diannaa (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)