Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:30, 12 February 2014

This user participates in WikiProject Biography.

This user is a participant in WikiProject English Royalty

• /Archive 1

The apricot tree

not only flowered, but bore abundant fruit, and I'm happy to see the metaphor applies. Welcome back Nishidani (talk) 12:31, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! I wondered about that. :-) NinaGreen (talk) 15:41, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Anne de Mortimer

Thanks for trying to help. I notice that the spammy query about the artist is 8 years old, from an IP, included two spamlinks, and was unsigned. Of course, if the other Anne is in fact notable, then she's notable.

I also wanted to thank you for your work on Anne de Mortimer herself. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:43, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! And thanks for the heads up on the spammy query. NinaGreen (talk) 16:46, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Help request

I noticed your help page request. If you find an image to append to the end of the lead section of an article, or find a really tall object or image to put at the top of the lead, it will extend downward into the space to the right of the table of contents. See Muhammad or Jesus for example. ~Amatulić (talk) 00:35, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the very useful hint! NinaGreen (talk) 00:37, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Richard , Earl of Cambridge Paternity Question

I was wondering if you could direct me to where you found the info that Richard of Conisburgh, 3rd Earl of Cambridge may be the product of an affair his mother had. The affair between Isabella and the Duke of Exeter is reported in the year 1379, 6 years before the birth of her son, Richard. How long did the affair last and does this have anything to do with the story The Complaint of Mars by Chaucer?

Your statement which I'm assuming you added seeing how you've edited more than a few things on that page within a few 24 hrs. --
Richard was twelve years younger than his brother, Edward of Norwich, 2nd Duke of York, and may have been the child of an illicit liaison between his mother and John Holland, 1st Duke of Exeter, since he received no lands from his putative father, Edmund of Langley, 1st Duke of York, and is not mentioned in his will.
-- Lady Meg (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, you're right, I added the statement. I found it in the source I cited, the ODNB article by Harriss. This is how it appears in Harriss's ODNB article:

Richard was twelve years younger than his brother Edward, duke of York (c.1373–1415), and may have been the product of his mother's illicit liaison with John Holland, earl of Huntingdon (d. 1400), for neither his father nor his brother provided him with land or income and neither mentioned him in his will.

Harriss cites a number of sources at the end of his article, but it's not apparent on the face of these sources where Harriss himself got the idea. You mention that the affair was reported in 1379. Perhaps it might be worth adding that source to the article? NinaGreen (talk) 15:13, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The "affair" was brought up in 1379 via a poem/story by Chaucer where people thought that the characters in the poem represented Isabella and Exeter. So it confuses me as to how something became "known" via a poem in 1379 and the child was thus born years later. I would think by that time, if the affair had been outed, she would have either been divorced or banished to a nunnery instead of "going back to her husband." I seriously wonder if Harriss was commenting on the poem or not which explains:

The 'Compleynt of Mars' an occasional poem of very peculiar character which Chaucer wrote at his request. It refers to incidents which seem to have taken place in the spring of 1379 viz an episode in the chronicle of scandals at the English court of that time. As may be imagined the subject of the poem is presented in an allegorical disguise. The veil indeed is not exactly transparent but the initiated must undoubtedly have known who was meant by Mars and who by Venus. According to the tradition established in the reign of Henry VI by a disciple and copier of Chaucer, Mars represented John Holland third son of Thomas Earl of Kent afterwards Earl of Huntingdon and Duke of Exeter and the Venus of the poem was Isabella, Countess of Edmund Earl of Cambridge who was made Duke of York in 1386. John of Gaunt was doubly related to this Venus Isabella who is reported by a chronicler as being 'mulier mollis et delicata' and towards the close of her life 'satis pxnitens et conversa.' Holland also came after a time into family relationship with Chaucer's patron by marrying Elizabeth the divorced Countess of Pembroke who was a daughter of Blanche and John of Gaunt. The whole atmosphere in this affair is not at all refreshing; John of Gaunt may have followed with a malicious pleasure the progress of the adulterous connection between John Holland and the Countess of Cambridge and when at length a kind of catastrophe supervened he shook with laughter and Chaucer had to write out the story for him in flowing rhymes. In order to escape the growing suspicion and to enjoy each other with less disturbance it appears the enamored couple had agreed upon a short separation with a subsequent assignation at a remote castle belonging to the absent Earl of Cambridge John Holland went there first Isabella soon followed by a circuitous route... It continues on page 75, It is not absolutely certain that the above outline is correct in every point. Possibly we should consider the situation as abstract rather than local and concrete, there may have been obstacles to close intercourse rather than intervening distance instead of surprise in a castle there may have been merely a threatened discovery of their love affairs and a consequent constraint to suspend for a time their intimacy. But the affair as it actually happened was certainly not wanting in many realistic and pungent touches. History of English Literature -- Lady Meg (talk) 21:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for this information. Harriss doesn't mention this literary evidence in his cited sources, although he might well have been aware of it, and put it together with the fact that Richard wasn't given any lands by his father, and wasn't mentioned in either his father's or his brother's wills to reach the conclusion that Richard may have been the child of an affair between his mother and Holland. I've changed the statement to attribute the conjecture specifically to Harriss in the text of the article. Perhaps we can both look around for further mention of the alleged affair in other reliable sources, and depending on what we find, alter the article accordingly? NinaGreen (talk) 15:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I can't help wondering, Lady Meg, what weight should we give to a tradition established in the reign of Henry VI, two or three generations after the events? Moonraker (talk) 22:00, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks

Good job on 15th earl. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! NinaGreen (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Articles edited

I have created a very impressive list of 119 articles that you have edited since September 2012 (I have tools to manipulate text, and this is simply a tricky search-and-replace on all your contributions since then). I hope you don't mind, but as I believe this will be useful, I have created your sandbox with the list, see User:NinaGreen/Sandbox. It's easy to move that or have it deleted if you like (ask if wanted). Johnuniq (talk) 01:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

And see here. Moonraker (talk) 01:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you both very much! This is really helpful. NinaGreen (talk) 20:05, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Don't give up

It appears you're not gonna make it this time, but don't give up: time has an irritating tendency to pass too quickly, and you'll surely be successful in the future.

Pro tip: instead of linking to open edits to illustrate an edit, link to the diffs instead. That way the chances of an unintended edit are much less. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:17, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Seconded, Nina. Still, I have my cingers frossed. Ya never know.

Tom: only proves we've very little heft round here! Or perhaps it's just that anything I, a former denisov of the perma-frosted gulag, might say as a character witness backfires and makes for a dubious reference. Nishidani (talk) 17:49, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip, Tom, and for the amusing allusion, Nishidani. :-) NinaGreen (talk) 23:44, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I thought you'd appreciate the content as well as the technical info. Tom Reedy (talk) 05:33, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Mary Hungerford: Earls of Northumberland

I have reversed your edit on Mary Hungerford. The reasons are in the talk page. Trahelliven (talk) 20:24, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I've put some comments there for your consideration. NinaGreen (talk) 20:56, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

I put a reference from tudorplace . Trahelliven (talk) 02:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Amendment request declined

Hi Nina. I have removed your amendment request, as there was no support from any Arbitrators to take action on it. I would advise waiting at least six months before reapplying to the Committee. Best, NW (Talk) 01:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Can you advise where the record of the request has been moved to so I can bookmark it. I can no longer find it at. Thanks. NinaGreen (talk) 02:08, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Shame about the outcome—I'm not sure the arbitrators realized the significance of the supports from Tom Reedy and Nishidani. Some of the early supports were overly enthusiastic and misguided in their approach, and that might have had a negative effect (Arbcom hates agreeing to anything that looks as if it may rekindle disputes). It would be best to not respond to my thoughts—I'm just letting you know my opinion, and further analysis would probably be unhelpful.

I believe declined requests are not saved anywhere apart from in the page history. The permanent link to the page showing the request as it was just prior to removal is here. Johnuniq (talk) 02:22, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

I've just noticed that the report has been moved to the talk page (here). I don't know if it will stay there permanently. Johnuniq (talk) 02:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It should, unless it gets archived in the future to a subpage of that page (e.g. Misplaced Pages talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Shakespeare authorship question/Archive 1). NW (Talk) 03:57, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

A very low-quality process, I'm afraid, typified by the blatant gilding of the lily by Newyorkbrad. Does anyone here have an opinion on whether he should be taken to task for it? I hear what Johnuniq says above, and perhaps my intervention was unhelpful, but I was properly invited to take part, and it would be crazy if I or others were expected to change our view. The contribution to the discussion by Iantresman suggests to me that if such injudicious stuff were to continue it ought not to be impossible to reopen the question of the original findings, whether the "arbitrators" hate it or not. Moonraker (talk) 05:47, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

The contribution to the discussion by Iantresman suggests to me that he didn't know what he was talking about. I suggest you review every page of the arbitration case and reassess why you think the original ban was unjustified (or you could just review these examples). Since that ArbCom decision, the SAQ page has reached FA status, an accomplishment that would have been impossible had the editing situation been left unchanged, and it has had a positive impact on the related articles,

There's no reason to go on about this, Moonraker. The original decision was fair, a process has been laid out for Nina to return to unrestricted editing, that process is entirely consistent with other cases of this nature, and I have no doubt she'll achieve it. Going on about it is unproductive and a waste of your time and energy. Tom Reedy (talk) 17:55, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

It's one thing to take it on the chin, which I'm sure Nina can. But it's unhelpful to lead with the chin when stepping in as a paladin to fight someone else's battle, as a few folks in there did in suggesting that the process was at fault. The next time round, say 4 months, could 'friends' just stay out of this. I'm sure with the work Nina will do in the interim, and strong support from Tom, Johnuniq and myself, and I hope you too, Moonraker, as well as a few others, this request will get closer attention. I've never found NewyorkBrad anything but fair and equitable (I don't brownnose, but I don't allow caution to get in the way of saying what I think), nor NW for that matter. These people have a far wider range of concerns and perspectives than most of us, because they have an experienced insight into how fragile the positive work, esp. the stuff that gets past FA, of wikipedia can prove to be unless caution rules the roost. Seeing support from quarters that are both partisan and critical of the due process that took place did not augur well. A lesson's been learnt. If Nina continues her work, I'm sure it's only a matter of four or five months before this can be positively reconsidered. (Cheers Nina) Nishidani (talk) 18:23, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

First of all, let me express my sincere thanks to everyone from the Misplaced Pages community who supported my request! The support from the community was unanimous.

In light of the unanimous support for my request from those in the Misplaced Pages community who responded, I feel I should express once again my opinion that the Misplaced Pages arbitration process needs substantive reform. In the original arbitration I expressed my complete bewilderment at what was going on. It's clear that as a new and inexperienced editor I had wandered into a firestorm of controversy over the Shakespeare authorship issue which had been going on on Misplaced Pages for years, and which I had been no part of. The arbitration was brought on the ground that there was a conspiracy among Oxfordian editors, but not a scintilla of evidence of a conspiracy was introduced during the entire arbitration. The reason for that is clear. There was no conspiracy. Instead of dropping the arbitration for lack of proof of any conspiracy, as I had requested, the arbitrators focussed all their attention on me. The time period for adducing evidence elapsed, and I protested that no specific evidence had been adduced against me, and that I could not respond without knowing the case (if any) I had to meet. At that point, the time period for providing evidence was re-opened on the spurious grounds that another editor needed further time to respond because of family circumstances. No further evidence was adduced by or on the part of that editor (whose identity was never disclosed during the arbitration). Instead, further 'evidence' was adduced against me, and the case was immediately closed again, and I was slapped with what must be among the most Draconian sanctions Misplaced Pages has ever imposed on anyone.

It is clear that there is no due process or transparency in a Misplaced Pages arbitration, and no clarity whatsoever as to what is actually being arbitrated and what case an editor who finds him/herself in an arbitration has to meet. I'm quite willing to admit that I could have handled Talk page discussions better, but so could any number of editors involved in those same Talk page discussions, and none of them received even the most minimal of sanctions by the arbitrators.

One learns from experience, which is sometimes a harsh mistress, and I hope that my experience can help to improve the Misplaced Pages arbitration process. To that end, when Steven Zhang of the Misplaced Pages Foundation asked me to participate in a survey concerning Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures, I responded to the survey. In addition to requesting completion of the survey, Steven Zhang requested volunteers to be part of a group which would offer suggestions for the improvement of Misplaced Pages dispute resolution procedures. I volunteered to do so at least three times, suggesting that my experience with arbitration had given me some insights which would be helpful in improving the arbitration process. Steven Zhang completely ignored my offer to participate.

My Misplaced Pages account remained blocked for months after the one-year ban had expired, and there appears to be no process on Misplaced Pages for ensuring that accounts are automatically unblocked when fixed-time period sanctions expire. So that is one area obviously in need of substantive reform. There needs to be a process for unblocking accounts when fixed time period sanctions have expired because when a user's account is totally blocked, there's no way of contacting Misplaced Pages to get it unblocked. And why should a user have to do that in any event? The account should be automatically unblocked.

Once my account was unblocked, I began editing biographies of English historical personages from the Middle Ages and Tudor periods. I have considerable background knowledge in this area, and access to reliable sources of very high quality. Before I requested that the topic ban be lifted a short time ago, I had edited over 120 of these Misplaced Pages articles, sourcing unsourced statements, providing in-line citations, and expanding articles which were stubs. I suspect it would be difficult to find many other editors in the entire Misplaced Pages universe who contributed anything approaching that amount to Misplaced Pages in that short space of time. However if the arbitrators took any notice whatsoever of the volume and quality of my contributions during the past two and half months, or of the fact that my contributions were in an area which is now relatively neglected by other Misplaced Pages editors, and in which there are notices on many many articles indicating that they are in need of improvement, it was not evident in the slightest from the arbitrators' comments. Not a single arbitrator appears to have taken any of this into consideration, and my request was abruptly closed off yesterday on the ground that the arbitrators simply weren't interested in lifting the topic ban. It is obvious to any disinterested observer that when those in a position to decide can merely say, 'We're not interested in doing anything', there is no due process and no transparency, and no Misplaced Pages editor can feel confident that he/she will be given fair treatment.

Moreover the arbitrator who authored the original arbitration decision added unsubstantiated new allegations in his comments regarding my request that the topic ban be lifted, and it was rightly pointed out by another editor that those new allegations by that arbitrator could not, in fact, be substantiated. The record clearly shows that I did not at any time specifically advocate for Oxford's authorship of the Shakespeare plays.

In addition, the path forward was not made clear in the slightest. There was no agreement whatsoever among the arbitrators as to what would be expected of me if I were to apply at a future date to have the topic ban lifted, or when such an application might be favourably received. And in fact the comments from several of the arbitrators that they had not the slightest interest in lifting the indefinite topic ban strongly suggests that there is no path forward, and that they will never agree to it being lifted, despite the fact that it has now been in place for almost two full years.

Moreover the comments from members of the Misplaced Pages community who offered support in my request to have the indefinite topic ban lifted were viewed with deep suspicion by some of the arbitrators, as though anyone who had anything positive to say about my work was somehow also suspect, and that was the case in the original arbitration as well, as the record shows. And some comments made earlier on this page suggest that in any future application I might make anyone who has anything positive to say about my work should just stay out of it. One can well imagine what the result would be for my application if that advice were taken, and anyone who had anything to say in support of my work just shut up, leaving the field to those who keep harping on the erroneous findings of the original arbitration.

In brief, neither the arbitration process nor the process governing requests for the lifting of indefinite topic bans provides for fairness, due process or transparency, and I would hope the entire Misplaced Pages community, including Jimmy Wales, would get behind an effort to put in place the substantive improvements which are needed to guarantee fairness, due process, and transparency, specifically:

(1) Editors need to know the specific case they have to meet, which implies that the arbitrators should never take on a case alleging a vast conspiracy without first requiring evidence establishing the alleged conspiracy, and if none is forthcoming, the arbitration should not be taken on.

(2) When an editor says, 'I don't know what the case is which I have to meet, and which specific Misplaced Pages policies I'm alleged to have violated', the arbitrators should spell out the details with specific diffs. In my case, the specific policies which I was alleged to have violated were never spelled out.

(3) If a large number of editors are swept into an arbitration, the case against each one should be spelled out very specifically, and those against whom there is no case should be immediately excused. One of the reasons for the vast amount of confusion in the original arbitration is that a very large number of people were dragged into it who had nothing to do with it, and it was never clear what the arbitration was about.

(4) Before a decision is voted on by the arbitrators, specific findings of fact, supported by diffs, should be spelled out, so that it is transparently clear to everyone exactly what the arbitrators are voting on.

(5) Before an arbitration is taken on, there should be a clear statement, supported by diffs, of the earlier steps in dispute resolution which were taken, and if no earlier steps have been taken, the case should not be taken on. In my case, no earlier steps were taken.

(6) Any decision by the arbitrators should include clear parameters as to what further steps need to be taken (if any) to lift the sanctions, particularly in the case of indefinite topic bans.

(7) Accounts should be automatically unblocked when fixed time period sanctions have expired.

(8) There should be a clear process set out as to what happens when a request is made to lift an indefinite topic ban. I was completely bewildered by what happened during my recent application. Arbitrators made laconic comments stating they didn't feel like doing anything, comments voicing suspicion, comments adding additional unsubstantiated allegations, etc. etc. The process seemed completely haphazard. And in the end the process was cut off abruptly without any agreement among the arbitrators as to what they would consider sufficient if I eventually reapplied, or when they would consider it suitable that I reapply.

I appreciate that the arbitrators have a thankless job, but there are a lot of editors out here on Misplaced Pages also doing what is, in essence, a thankless job. And we're all doing it for the common good because we feel Misplaced Pages is a worthwhile project which contributes to the store of human knowledge. I hope my comments will be taken in that light. They constitute a bona fide attempt to improve Misplaced Pages.

I would also like to add that it is one of Misplaced Pages's policies to encourage women editors, and I can't help but wonder how women editors would be encouraged by my experience on Misplaced Pages, which seems to smack in at least some measure of overt male chauvinism. NinaGreen (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2012 (UTC)

Nina, when you're trying to walk up stairs it doesn't help to wear roller skates. Tom Reedy (talk) 14:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Tom, the arbitrators made it clear I'm never going to walk up those stairs. :-) The minimum anyone should be able to expect from an application is an clear-cut decision from the arbitrators as to the path forward, i.e. how long to wait before the next application, and what steps need to be taken to ensure the application will not be turned down a second time, and all the arbitrators agreed on was that they 'didn't feel like doing anything'. Who in their right mind would ever want to go through such a humiliating and bewildering process a second time? There's nothing in the world which can't benefit from improvement, and the Misplaced Pages arbitration process is no exception. I've set out 8 specific suggestions above, and I hope they will be circulated in the Misplaced Pages community, and that everyone in the Misplaced Pages community will get behind them, including Jimmy Wales, so that there is fairness, due process, and transparency in Misplaced Pages arbitrations and follow-up applications, something which is sorely lacking at the present time. NinaGreen (talk) 03:33, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree with everything Nina says, and I also stand by my comment above about "the blatant gilding of the lily by Newyorkbrad", who plainly invented a new original offence without anyone except me minding or pointing it out. The contributions from the concerned editors were generally thoughtful, informed, and intelligent, but what ought to have been the judicial process was almost wholly subjective, unreasoning, and injudicious, quite like the original arbitration, but worse. If all the submissions to the arbitrators are to be treated as irrelevant, even when unanimous, what on earth is the point of anyone's making any? If a judge in an English court, or a member of an English tribunal, behaved in such a way he or she would be in very hot water. Moonraker (talk) 11:18, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

NB I have just read through the Amendment request and I see that Newyorkbrad says "I authored the original decision in this case", a point which I had forgotten. As the leading arbitrator has been observed wildly exaggerating the original offences, there is a strong case for the original decision to be reviewed by someone independent of it; indeed, someone completely independent of Misplaced Pages is needed for the decision to be suitably tested. Moonraker (talk) 11:38, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

• Can I state the painfully obvious here. Nina, I supported your re-emergence into editing, and I would have supported lifting the restriction on editing other than in the SAQ area (so you would have been able to edit articles on the historical persons). What guaranteed that your request received zero support from the Committee was the parade of "supporters" insisting that the sanction should be overturned on the basis that the original decision was the wrong one. Since everyone who was sanctioned in that case was horribly disruptive, this was a complete non-starter as an effective argument. Worse, it gave the impression that you did not understand that your editing had (maybe unintentionally, but the effect was the same) been disruptive. And even worse, it gave the impression that you were likely to start up again with the disruptive edits.

• I don't think that you have lost all chance of being allowed to edit without restrictions, but your statement above has made it a lot less likely. You really do need to go back and understand why your behaviour caused such a problem that you still have a sanction. As with anyone who has strong views on a topic, you need to be able to edit neutrally, and this is what you have to convince the Committee that you understand if you are to get the sanction lifted. You need to show that you have moved on from the problems that gave rise to the original decision. You need more people saying 'Nina's editing has been neutral, well-researched, and valuable' and less people saying 'should never have been sanctioned in the first place.'--Elen of the Roads (talk) 12:51, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

• What Elen of the Roads says is every bit as lacking in balance and objectivity as the arbitration process and the consideration of the Amendment request themselves were. She says -

1. "Can I state the painfully obvious here." Absolutely nothing of what follows is obvious, and what follows is painful only in its absurdity.
2. "Nina, I supported your re-emergence into editing..." Once the block on Nina had expired, there was no question of supporting or opposing that. This comment is very like saying "I supported your release from prison once you had served your sentence."
3. "...and I would have supported lifting the restriction on editing other than in the SAQ area (so you would have been able to edit articles on the historical persons)." Here there is a division of the Amendment request into two parts, and the different responses of Elen of the Roads to those parts are not reasoned and are certainly not "painfully obvious". What is said purports to show the start point of Elen's thinking. In the event, she did not support lifting the topic ban in respect of "the historical persons", and she goes on to explain that outcome in terms of the behaviour of people other than Nina. This is also not "painfully obvious"; rather, it is painfully injudicious.
4. "What guaranteed that your request received zero support from the Committee was the parade of "supporters" insisting that the sanction should be overturned on the basis that the original decision was the wrong one." This statement raises several issues. Firstly, Nina has no ability to control what is said by others, so why on earth should she be punished for any of it? Secondly, if Elen of the Roads takes the trouble to read through all of the arbitrators' responses she will find that the request did not receive "zero support from the Committee": this is an overstatement which is sadly typical of the whole of this arbitration process (which did not even begin as a complaint specifically targetted against Nina). Thirdly, the melodramatic expression the parade of "supporters" is plainly injudicious. Why use the word "parade"? A parade is always highly organized and regimented, but what it is seeking to describe was simply a series of concerned editors who individually support Nina, some of them on the basis described, some not. So Elen's choice of word is improper and must demonstrate prejudice. Why on earth should Elen of the Roads object to Nina's having a series of supporters? And goodness only knows why she decided to put "supporters" in quotation marks. What is that implying? Is she suggesting that those concerned were not in fact supporters, and if so on what basis? Lastly, only a minority of the contributors to the request suggested that the original decision was the wrong one, but anyone doing so is perfectly entitled to voice that opinion and nothing adverse to Nina can properly be drawn from it.
5. "Since everyone who was sanctioned in that case was horribly disruptive..." I suppose "everyone who was sanctioned in that case" is intended to include Nina, so "horribly disruptive" refers to her.
6. "this was a complete non-starter as an effective argument..." I agree that the purpose of the request was not to overturn the original decision, but no one argued that that should happen. As an argument in mitigation, it must be admissible that some contributors felt that the original "offences" had been punished too severely.
7. "Worse, it gave the impression that you did not understand that your editing had (maybe unintentionally, but the effect was the same) been disruptive." This is irrational. How could the comments of other users give any impression about what Nina did or did not understand?
8. "...that your editing had (maybe unintentionally, but the effect was the same) been disruptive." This concedes that Nina's editing may have been unintentionally "disruptive". That is an important point, and I should have thought that arriving at that view ought to have led Elen of the Roads into supporting the request, as the whole concept of culpable "disruption" must surely include some intention to disrupt. In any event, it is hard to see how the editing of anyone as rational as Nina could be both "unintentionally disruptive" and "horribly disruptive" (see point (5) above).

• If necessary I can offer an analysis of the second paragraph from Elen of the Roads, part of which echoes elements of the first, but for now it is enough to say that all of her comments seem to me to be coloured by emotion and poor reasoning. Moonraker (talk) 22:17, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Elen of the Roads, you stated above that 'everyone who was sanctioned in that case was horribly disruptive'. In fact, the only person who was sanctioned in the original arbitration was me. Although the arbitration was launched on the spurious grounds that there was a vast conspiracy among Oxfordian editors, not a scintilla of evidence of any such conspiracy was adduced, and the entire weight of the arbitrators came down full force on me. (Smtprt, with whom I'd never edited because he was under a ban the whole time I was editing, wasn't sanctioned in the arbitration; he merely used the arbitration as a vehicle to apply to have the earlier sanctions against him lifted, which didn't happen. And if the arbitrators are of the view that Smtprt was 'horribly disruptive', that has absolutely nothing to do with me because any editing Smtprt did on Misplaced Pages was before my time, and I should not be tarred with guilt by association.)

You also wrote, 'You really do need to go back and understand why your behaviour caused such a problem'. I told the arbitrators during the arbitration what caused the problem, namely that I was not allowed to make a single substantive edit on the SAQ page. Every single substantive edit I made was instantly reverted by other editors, and every single substantive edit I suggested was argued about endlessly on the Talk page by other editors. Any one of the arbitrators can go back to the SAQ page and see that for him/herself. Yet none of those other editors was sanctioned by the arbitrators, or even came in for the slightest criticism from the arbitrators.

You also wrote, 'You need more people saying 'Nina's editing has been neutral, well-researched, and valuable' and less people saying 'should never have been sanctioned in the first place.' Why do I need that? In the first place, all the editors who commented during my application supported the lifting of the sanctions. Secondly, and more importantly, I provided the arbitrators with a list of 120 articles I've edited in the past two and half months (since then I've edited several dozen more articles, usually revising them from top to bottom, adding references and in-line citations). Why couldn't the arbitrators go take a look for themselves at some of those articles and make up their own minds as to whether my editing is 'neutral, well-researched and valuable'? It undoubtedly is 'neutral, well-researched and valuable', and if the arbitrators would bother to take a few minutes to look at it, they'd see that.

You also wrote, 'You need to show that you have moved on'. All the editors in the Misplaced Pages community who responded to the application indicated that they are ready to move on. I'm ready to move on. The only ones who aren't ready to move on, and who seem to want to keep harping indefinitely on the past, are the arbitrators. Surely that's not what Misplaced Pages is about. Why don't the arbitrators just lift the indefinite ban? If things turn out badly, the arbitrators can just re-impose the ban. What have they got to lose? Nothing. But things won't turn out badly. Things will be just fine if the indefinite ban is lifted.NinaGreen (talk) 01:32, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, although that is not going to surprise anyone. There were clearly fundamental problems with the Request for Amendment process in this case, which I suspect must reflect equally fundamental problems with the process in general. This one happened without anyone except the applicant defining what was going on and what issues needed to be considered. Some arbitrators began to jump in to give their decisions before the views of the editing community concerned with the matter had been heard. Indeed, only one of them showed any real interest in listening to the views of the community. Even when those views proved to be unanimous, most arbitrators felt that the real issue was whether the original decision had been correct, and that led to the community's views on developments since the Arbitration being completely ignored. The lead arbitrator at the Arbitration (that is, the author of the original decision), exaggerated the original findings and was able to get away with that because even when it was pointed out on the page that he had done so nobody cared. Most arbitrators proved to be opinionated, did not analyse the issues or take a reasoned approach to resolving them, and in voting did no more than to offer a few curmudgeonly remarks. The whole process seems incapable of being anything but crazy.

The Misplaced Pages community is self-regulating, but what other worldwide organization with millions of members would allow the decisions of its disciplinary process to be taken by opinionated people with no relevant training and (rather critically, I think) no legal advice? As Misplaced Pages grows in importance, there surely needs to be a much more professional approach to such matters. Moonraker (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I have left a note about this matter at User talk:Michael Snow. Moonraker (talk) 19:34, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

I just now read this wall of text and I'm astounded at the stubborn refusal to face reality that is on display here and the idiotic idea that any of this is helping anything. Misplaced Pages is not a U.S. (or any other) governmental agency, and Constitutional and legal arguments don't apply here. For a brief moment I thought about rebutting all of Nina's points with examples from her diffs, but a sufficient number was presented at the original arbitration, and I don't even care anymore. I suspect nobody else does either, since it appears that any change exhibited by Nina was merely cosmetic. Suffice to say that the next such request for clarification will not have my support or participation. Tom Reedy (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

That strikes me as unexpected, Tom. It is not the first "wall of text" the affair has generated, and you know better than most editors here that complicated problems call for a careful analysis. I am surprised if you are not concerned about the matters raised above by Nina and others raised by me. You say

"Misplaced Pages is not a U.S. (or any other) governmental agency, and Constitutional and legal arguments don't apply here." Indeed, Misplaced Pages is not in any sense a public body, it is rather like a co-operative or even a private members' club, but it is a significant one, with millions of members. On your word "constitutional", so far as U.S. citizens (I am not one) can rely on constitutional rights in their everyday lives, they should be able to rely on them in their relationship with Misplaced Pages. On your statement "legal arguments don't apply here", I broadly agree with you if you mean that there is little legislation which has a bearing on on what is acceptable behaviour on this web site, but nevertheless we have policies which should carry out that role for each Misplaced Pages project. Even in running their own affairs, private members' clubs and societies are subject to the law of the land they are based in, and most of them would accept that the concepts of natural justice and human rights should be respected. The notion of an arbitration process which is injudicious and arbitrary is alien to all the high principles rightly promoted by Wikipedian leaders like Jimmy Wales and Michael Snow.

"... a stubborn refusal to face reality" To me this looks more like a stubborn refusal to accept the evident flaws of a process which needs to be improved. If you cannot see that there are any flaws, then you are one for the status quo, whatever it is.

"...I don't even care anymore. I suspect nobody else does either, since it appears that any change exhibited by Nina was merely cosmetic." Forgive me, I thought the central issue here was whether Nina's editing was constructive, valuable, orderly, etc? Nothing has changed on that front. If for you the central issue was that everyone (including Nina) should accept that the outcome of the original Arbitration was correct, that was really not the subject of the Request.

"Suffice to say that the next such request for clarification will not have my support or participation." If you take no part in the next request you will of course not be heard. All the same, the anger you have displayed here surprises me. Moonraker (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Your irrelevant blabber does not surprise me, but it is surprising that you discern anger where there is none. That appears to be a classic case of projection or misreading, probably both.

Enough. No more of this for me. Continue with your pole vaulting over this rat turd as you so choose and if you honestly think you're doing any good for anybody besides your spleen. I'll not stand in your way. Tom Reedy (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

And the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started. Moonraker (talk) 04:24, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

• You do go on, Tom. Listen to me instead. I think all our exploring has reached the kernel of the nut: the arbitrators are opinionated, unreasoning and injudicious. Moonraker, by contrast, is fair-minded, analytical and sane. Rare qualities, sorely needed on the imbecile committee. Moonraker, did you know there's an ArbCom election starting right now? Why don't you throw your hat in the ring, and stand for arbcom on a platform of, as you say, "a much more professional approach"? You don't have to be an admin or anything to run for arbcom — just a user in good standing with a reasonable edit count — 500 mainspace edits or something like that, I think. Obviously you'd ace that. This page is where you post your candidacy and election statement. You've got till 20 November 23:59 UTC. Bishonen | talk 19:08, 19 November 2012 (UTC).

Bishonen, it seems clear that your comment is intended to be sardonic, which suggests that you object to the analysis of the issues on this talk page and prefer instead such trash as the inventing by Newyorkbrad of a new and supposedly serious offence which he has claimed was committed by Nina, one for which there is no history, and the irrational thought processes of Elen of the Roads. If so, then you are yourself part of the problem. In any event (pretending for a moment to take your suggestion seriously) ArbCom is far too arbitrary a body for me to want to be part of it as it is set up for now. Its ethos is cracked and its processes plainly need major reform. Moonraker (talk) 02:37, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Charles Arundell

Nina, I was thinking of starting a page on Charles Arundell, the brother of Matthew Arundell, but I want to be sure he is notable. Do you have any thoughts? Moonraker (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I think he could be considered sufficiently notable from the perspective of:

(1) Family connections. He was the son of the convicted traitor, Sir Thomas Arundel, beheaded on Tower Hill on 26 February 1552, and Margaret Howard, the daughter of Lord Edmund Howard and sister of Queen Katherine Howard, and was thus a kinsman of Queen Elizabeth. His niece by marriage was Southampton’s sister, Mary Wriothesley.

(2) His role in political intrigue. He and Lord Henry Howard were briefly imprisoned in the Tower at Christmas 1580 after being denounced as traitors to the Queen by Oxford, and Arundel spent the next seven months or so under house arrest. In the wake of the Babington plot in 1583 he fled to Paris in the company of Thomas, Lord Paget, brother of the conspirator, Charles Paget. Although his role isn’t entirely clear, he seems to have been involved in putting the English ambassador in Paris, Sir Edward Stafford, into contact with Philip II of Spain. In the ODNB article on Stafford, James McDermott says Stafford was in close communication with Arundel, and in early 1587 Arundel secretly acted as a mediator between Stafford and Bernadino de Mendoza, Philip II's ambassador in Paris, to offer Stafford's services as a spy. Arundel was given 2000 crowns to pass on to Stafford. He died in Paris in 1587, perhaps poisoned. He is sometimes referred to as 'Sir Charles Arundel', a knighthood having allegedly been bestowed on him by King Philip of Spain.

(3) His reputed authorship of Leicester's Commonwealth. Dwight C. Peck argued, in his edition of Leicester’s Commonwealth, that Arundel was the anonymous author.NinaGreen (talk) 03:58, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think the uncertainty on the last matter was my main worry, but the main question here is probably whether he meets WP:N by being dealt with in enough reliable sources - are you in a position to estimate the number? Moonraker (talk) 04:06, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I don’t know that I could estimate an actual number, but Arundell is mentioned in recent books by the historians Victor Houlihan (Catholic Resistance in Elizabethan England, p. 13) ; Michael Questier (Catholicism and Community in Early Modern England, pp. 88-154); Paul. E.J. Hammer in The Polarization of Elizabethan Politics; John Bossy in his article in Recusant History, ‘English Catholics and the French Marriage 1577-1581'; by the historian James McDermott (as noted earlier) in his article on Sir Edward Stafford in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography; rather extensively by Alan Nelson in Monstrous Adversary; by Douglas Richardson in Magna Carta Ancestry; and (as noted earlier) by Dwight Peck in his edition of Leicester’s Commonwealth. A quick search of the internet indicates that Arundel is mentioned by Donna Hamilton in Anthony Munday and the Catholics; by J.E. Neale in an article in the English Historical Review entitled ‘The Fame of Sir Edward Stafford’; by Katy Gibbons in English Catholic Exiles in Late Sixteenth Century Paris, p. 24; by Samuel Hopkins in The Puritans, Vol. II, p. 506; by Joanna Rickman in Love, Lust and Licence in Early Modern England, p. 32; by Stephania Tutino in Law and Conscience; Catholicism in Early Modern England 1570-1625, p. 60; by Richard C. McCoy in The Rites of Knighthood, p. 174; by Thomas McCoog in The Society of Jesus in Ireland, Scotland and England, p. 253, and perhaps others I may have missed. Most of the authors are historians, and the books were published by academic publishers.NinaGreen (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

That's more than I was aware of, so I shall make a start on a basic page and hope you will be able to get around to building it up. I expect it will be one for DYK. Moonraker (talk) 01:57, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Fast work! I added a further citation for Arundell's family background, and made one change to the text, substituting the views of historians who have recently commented on Leicester's Commonwealth for 'recent editions' of the tract as I don't know of anyone who has edited it since Peck. Do you have a suggestion as to what could be submitted to DYK? NinaGreen (talk) 17:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes indeed, I found some better information than expected and got on with it. Have only just noticed that Arundell is mentioned several times in our article on Oxford. Will look out for another collaboration. Moonraker (talk) 04:28, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether this would interest you, but the article on Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton is just a stub , and I'm sure we could find material to improve it. NinaGreen (talk) 00:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The father of a notable namesake, he has an article by someone called J. G. Elzinga in the ODNB which cites G. P. V. Akrigg's Shakespeare and the earl of Southampton, not to mention W. D. Hamilton's edition of Charles Wriothesley's Chronicle, &c.. I have never come across J. G. Elzinga before. Would you like to make a start, and I'll see what I can add? Moonraker (talk) 07:24, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

It would be useful to acquire a public domain close-up of his tomb effigy at Titchfield! Moonraker (talk) 07:43, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

I've considerably expanded the article. My format for adding references and citations is a bit different from yours, but I don't think that should be a problem. You can just add yours in whatever format you like. I also usually add an Infobox, which I've done with this article. I'm not sure where to look for a closeup of the effigy, but agree it would be a nice addition. NinaGreen (talk) 22:03, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Good work! The 16th century pronunciation of the name Wriothesley is an interesting question. Somewhere I've seen it suggested that it might have been "Rosely"... "a rose by any other name". Moonraker (talk) 08:05, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Should there be an article on the 2nd Earl's wife and 3rd Earl's mother, Mary Browne? For some reason there are links to her in several articles which redirect to her father, Anthony Browne, 1st Viscount Montagu. NinaGreen (talk) 17:28, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I have quickly found several references to her in reliable sources, so I see no reason why not. Wives of peers have been a difficult area - see this recent afd, for instance. Another disputed question has been what surname to use in the article title. To me, Frances Grey, Duchess of Suffolk and Lady Mary Grey make more sense than Susan Bertie, Countess of Kent and Mary Cromwell, Countess Fauconberg. Moonraker (talk) 23:54, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Another possibility would be to use the maiden name of the wife of a peer with her date of death as a descriptor, i.e. 'Mary Browne (died 1607)', particularly when (as in this case) she had three husbands. But I'm not sure whether that would accord with Misplaced Pages's general protocols for article titles for members of the nobility. In any event, if that can be sorted out and you decide to create the article, I'd be happy to add what I can to it. NinaGreen (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Have made a start on Mary Wriothesley, Countess of Southampton. Moonraker (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Great! I've added some further information, and will add a bit more later. NinaGreen (talk) 16:32, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

I've added a bit more to the article on the Countess, and have been working on the article on her father, Anthony Browne, . The articles you've recently created provide a means of adding a very substantial number of links to existing articles so that Misplaced Pages readers can see the multitude of ways in which all these people were related, which in turn sheds light on their actions and motivations. Another article which might be useful would be one on the Countess' brother, Anthony Browne, who predeceased their father by only four months, and thus did not become the 2nd Viscount Montague. He's probably sufficiently noteworthy. He's mentioned several times by Stopes. NinaGreen (talk) 19:49, 1 December 2012 (UTC)

'Did You Know' Nomination for Article on Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton

All references to the nomination to 'Did You Know' for the article on Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton , seem to have disappeared, both on the 'Did You Know' pages, and on the Talk page for the article, where two of the DYK editors had left brief comments asking for clarification as to which article was being nominated. I've left a message on the Talk page of one of the editors at . I'd leave one for the other editor as well, but I can't recall his user name. It's very puzzling, as I didn't think comments on the Talk pages of Misplaced Pages articles, or the record of a nomination, could simply vanish. Any help resolving this would be much appreciated. NinaGreen (talk) 00:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Apparently it had been moved to a prep page, and was published today (see below). Many thanks to Moonraker for nominating the article! NinaGreen (talk) 18:00, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

AARON• 00:43, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton

On 2 December 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Roman Catholicism of the 2nd Earl of Southampton has been called the key to his unhappy life? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Henry Wriothesley, 2nd Earl of Southampton. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Anthony Browne (1552–1592)

I have made a start on Anthony Browne (1552–1592), but for me he's struggling with notability. Although I have included the claim from the tudorplace site that he was Sheriff of Surrey and Kent in 1580, something about that seems to be wrong. Some more references would be a help. Moonraker (talk) 12:17, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find. I added a source for your DYK for Mary Wriothesley. I've been revising the article on Elizabeth Howard, Duchess of Norfolk. There's a portrait of her here Portrait of Elizabeth, Duchess of Norfolk. Do you happen to know if there's a version in the public domain which I could add to the Infobox for the article? NinaGreen (talk) 15:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I've added to the article. Feel free to change as you see fit, including the formatting of the references. NinaGreen (talk) 17:12, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

That image of Elizabeth, Duchess of Norfolk, looks to me like a stipple engraving after a portrait. I have found other copies of it (such as this one) but can't find one with an attribution. Let me look around a bit. Moonraker (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Neither the National Portrait Gallery nor the Royal Collection seems to have have any images of her, and I haven't been able to trace anything else referring to a portrait of her. You might like to check with the keeper of prints and drawings at Arundel Castle? In the absence of an attribution, that image could be almost any middle-aged lady of the period! Moonraker (talk) 18:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for checking around. She could indeed be anyone. I might send an e-mail to Emerson to see where she found the image on her Tudor Women site which you've noted above. I've added an Infobox to the article on Anthony Browne. I'm rather partial to them because they make it easy for readers to click to related articles, but feel free to remove it if you wish. One problem I have with Infoboxes, though, is that I can't seem to increase the size of an image when it's in an Infobox, and the one you had on the page now unfortunately appears slightly smaller in the Infobox. Perhaps you know how to fix that, if you decide to keep the Infobox? I've also added a statement in the lead paragraph that Browne was Southampton's uncle. although I can't find any mention of direct contact between the two which I could put in the main text of the article. NinaGreen (talk) 19:24, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I've added more material from Stopes, including mention of a journey Browne made in the 2nd Earl of Southampton's company. In connection with the latter, I notice that the article on Sir William More of Loseley, a fairly significant figure during Queen Elizabeth's reign, is a mere stub which perhaps could be expanded as time permits. NinaGreen (talk) 20:57, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I was also thinking of an article on William More, didn't know there was a stub. It will need to wait for another day, I am away now. Moonraker (talk) 23:53, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Emerson confirmed your hunch that the portrait of Elizabeth Howard might be at Arundel Castle. She says it is. Are you thinking of submitting the Anthony Browne article to DYK? There might be a nice hook in that his young son was with him when he, his father and his brothers mustered before the Queen at Tilbury. However I don't know much about choosing hooks, so it's merely a suggestion. And perhaps you won't be able to submit it since you're away? NinaGreen (talk) 00:34, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure whether to invite scrutiny of it! I suspect the Sheriff thing is wrong, and without it he is arguably not notable. Perhaps it may be better to let sleeping dogs lie. Moonraker (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Away was just away for some rest. I am wondering whether that image might be an engraving after this portrait of Mary Guildford by Hans Holbein the Younger? See what you think. Moonraker (talk) 16:33, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Neat find! If one portrait isn't based on the other, at the very least one of the ladies seems to have borrowed the other's jewellery. :-) Thanks for the additions to the article on the 14th Earl of Oxford. Your link to the Garden Museum inspired me to use it for the hook for my submission of the Elizabeth Howard article to DYK. I'm hoping the extensive rewrite and sourcing of the latter will meet the DYK criteria. NinaGreen (talk) 22:55, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK nomination of John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford

Hello! Your submission of John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Acroterion (talk) 03:00, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

It looks to me like it's about 200 characters short of a 5x expansion, but otherwise looks fine. Perhaps there's something more that could be added? Acroterion (talk) 03:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK Elizabeth Howard

I posted an answer on the Template to your question about counting characters in an article. — Maile (talk) 21:57, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Willoughby, 6th Baron Willoughby de Eresby

On 12 December 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Willoughby, 6th Baron Willoughby de Eresby, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Robert Willoughby surrendered the Bastille to the French on 17 April 1436? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Willoughby, 6th Baron Willoughby de Eresby. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:05, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK Check installation on the Toolbox

Nina,

Try these steps for installing DYK Check into your Toolbox: Click on the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User:NinaGreen/common.js

This should come up with a blue link message "Start the NinaGreen/common.js page" Click on the blue link. It should open up a blank Edit Window just like you were starting a new article.

Copy and Paste the "importScript" (etc) from the bottom of this message, all of it exactly as it is, into the blank edit window and hit Return.

That sets up your skin, hopefully, no matter which skin you use, with the DYK Check in the left-hand toolbox. You might have to refresh or restart your browser. This should put it in your Toolbox. If this does not work, please let me know. — Maile (talk) 19:25, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

importScript('User:Shubinator/DYKcheck.js'); //DYKcheck tool importScriptURI('http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&title=User:Haza-w/cactions.js');

Thanks! I followed the instructions, and it showed up in the Toolbox, and I tried it on an article, and it worked. NinaGreen (talk) 19:40, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

Hooray! You're all set to go! — Maile (talk) 19:43, 12 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for William Willoughby, 5th Baron Willoughby de Eresby

On 13 December 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Willoughby, 5th Baron Willoughby de Eresby, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that William Willoughby, 5th Baron Willoughby de Eresby, was on the commission which condemned to death Archbishop Scrope, the first English prelate to suffer judicial execution? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Willoughby, 5th Baron Willoughby de Eresby. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Mifter (talk) 08:02, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford

On 14 December 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that at the funeral of his uncle, from whom he inherited the earldom, John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford, received an axe brought into the church by a mounted horseman? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John de Vere, 14th Earl of Oxford. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:02, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Richard Neville, 2nd Baron Latimer

On 21 December 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Richard Neville, 2nd Baron Latimer, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the eldest son of Richard Neville, 2nd Baron Latimer, was married to Catherine Parr before she was King Henry VIII's Queen? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Richard Neville, 2nd Baron Latimer. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:02, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Marmaduke Constable (died 1545)

Hello! Your submission of Marmaduke Constable (died 1545) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Rlendog (talk) 02:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

Greetings!

Talkback

Odie5533 (talk) 05:10, 29 December 2012 (UTC) I left you a reply there. --Odie5533 (talk) 18:18, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford

On 31 December 2012, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford, was abducted by the half-brother of her intended bridegroom? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Nyttend (talk) 00:02, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Marmaduke Constable (died 1545)

On 2 January 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Marmaduke Constable (died 1545), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Marmaduke Constable was the great-grandfather of the poet, Henry Constable, author of Diana, one of the first English sonnet sequences? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Marmaduke Constable (died 1545). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

(X! · talk)  · @309  ·  12:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Adelina Domingues

Hey Nina, I responded to your latest comments here--Template:Did you know nominations/Adelina Domingues. Please see my latest response whenever you have time. Futurist110 (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I responded to you again, Nina. Futurist110 (talk) 08:39, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Neville (poet)

On 3 January 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Neville (poet), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that poet William Neville made himself a cloak of linen and buckskin which was supposed to render him invisible? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Neville (poet). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 12:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Bot Removed Citations and Text

Sorry about that. First of all, I did not create the bot. The bot in question, Citation bot, was created by Smith609, and is available from the 'Preferences' page to all wikipedia users; it shows up as an 'Expand citations' link in the toolbox. I haven't experienced errors like this before, and I am unsure what went wrong, so for now I'll undo the edits and add a tag to prevent the bot from further editing of the page. My apologies. Bensci54 (talk) 02:23, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I've left a note on Smith609's Talk page to let him know about the problem. NinaGreen (talk) 02:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

It looks like a missing right brace in your wikitext was the problem. Fixed now. LeadSongDog come howl! 04:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your help! NinaGreen (talk) 00:17, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Barons De Ros moves

Hello, Nina. I've gone ahead and moved, first, William de Ros, 3rd Baron de Ros → William de Ros, 2nd Baron de Ros, and, second, William de Ros, 4th Baron de Ros → William de Ros, 3rd Baron de Ros, as you requested and have closed the discussions. There's probably some tidying up to do on these but I'll leave that to you. Kind regards, --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:57, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and I've moved Thomas de Ros, 10th Baron de Ros → Thomas de Ros, 9th Baron de Ros. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 02:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll check the articles for necessary clean-up resulting from the moves. NinaGreen (talk) 18:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK: James Hales

I passed the DYK nom for James Hales, but there are a few minor reference issues you need to address. Please reply on the DYK nom if needed. – Maky 02:09, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Robert Constable (died 1591)

Hello! Your submission of Robert Constable (died 1591) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:13, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Henry Constable

On 10 January 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Henry Constable, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that poet Henry Constable was imprisoned in both the Tower and the Fleet? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Henry Constable. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Nyttend (talk) 00:03, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

A brownie for you!

Nice job expanding Henry Constable for DYK. It was pretty interesting. Happy editing! ComputerJA (talk) 02:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

What a nice surprise! Thank you. Glad you enjoyed the article. NinaGreen (talk) 17:53, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK? Review Request

Hey Nina,

Do you have some extra time? If so, would you please be able to review this DYK? nomination of mine? The previous two people that reviewed it haven't gotten back to me yet, and it's already been several days since I last messaged them. If you're unable to review this DYK? nomination, that's okay. Here is the DYK? nomination that I'm talking about--Template:Did you know nominations/Demographic history profile of Detroit. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 08:18, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help out if needed, but let's wait until BlueMoonset has a chance to get back to your nomination, as it's only been a few days since you finished the fixes he suggested, and he may now be ready to OK it. NinaGreen (talk) 00:22, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Help_desk#Displaying_Image

I added the category "Canterbury Cathedral", if that's what you mean, CTF83! 11:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! NinaGreen (talk) 19:38, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Constable (died 1591)

On 14 January 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Constable (died 1591), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Robert Constable was a descendant of Richard, Earl of Cambridge, executed for his part in the Southampton Plot against King Henry V? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Constable (died 1591). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK

Thank you for your suggestions regarding my article submission. I've made most or all of the suggested changes and I've clarified the text regarding Sinclair Lewis in a way that I think may satisfy your concern about the hook. Thanks. Gamaliel (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for helping out with my DYK nomination for Brunette Downs Station. Keep up the good work. Hughesdarren (talk) 06:21, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome. I learned some interesting things from the article. NinaGreen (talk) 06:23, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback

Hello. You have a new message at Michaelh2001's talk page. Regarding your help with and response to the Did You Know? nomination for Juneau Raptor Center AlaskaMike (talk) 21:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK review comment

Hi Nina, thanks for the review of my DYK nomination. I've replied to your concerns at the discussion page. Let me know if you want me to clarify anything. Take care, Moswento 09:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. I've marked the nomination good to go. NinaGreen (talk) 18:37, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the tick! Take care, Moswento 20:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I've also replied to your comment at Template:Did you know nominations/Blaufränkisch. Agne/ 03:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK

Hi there NinaGreen, I reviewed your submission at DYK, you can find the link here. Just a couple of things, nothing serious, and it's good to go. Parrot of Doom 00:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Waldegrave

On 5 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Waldegrave, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Robert Waldegrave printed the first four Marprelate tracts on a secret press in 1588/9? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Waldegrave. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Nyttend (talk · contribs) 08:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Walter Buckler

On 13 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Walter Buckler, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Walter Buckler was secretary to Queen Katherine Parr and chamberlain to Princess Elizabeth? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Walter Buckler. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:51, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Wolley (MP)

On 18 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Wolley (MP), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that John Wolley was sent to King James in June 1586 to assure him that Mary, Queen of Scots was being well treated, and four months later was one of the commissioners who tried and convicted her? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Wolley (MP). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Carabinieri (talk) 08:03, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Wolley

On 19 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth Wolley, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Queen Elizabeth I nicknamed Elizabeth Wolley her "sweet apple"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Wolley. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Carabinieri (talk) 00:03, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Francis Wolley

On 19 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Francis Wolley, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that from 1601 to 1609 Sir Francis Wolley provided a home at Pyrford for the poet John Donne and Anne More after their clandestine marriage? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Francis Wolley. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Nyttend (talk · contribs) 16:03, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

You might want to review this

You've done some good work but I think you need to reread this. If you continue to step over the line it is liable to affect you in the future. Patience is a virtue. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:38, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the message, Tom. It says 'topic banned', and I've not done any editing whatsoever which relates to the topic of the Shakespeare authorship, so I most certainly haven't 'stepped over the line', as you put it. In fact the ironic thing about the indefinite topic ban imposed by the arbitrators is that I actually never edited on the Shakespeare authorship issue, so I was topic-banned indefinitely by the arbitrators from editing on a topic I'd never edited on! My edits on the Edward de Vere article prior to that bizarre arbitration were all on Oxford as a historical person, not on Oxford as a possible author of the Shakespeare canon, and as you well know, the very few edits I attempted to make on the Shakespeare Authorship article prior to the arbitration were all instantly reverted. Justice is also a virtue. The topic ban should be lifted forthwith, as it makes no sense, and has never made any sense. NinaGreen (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

"She is also topic-banned indefinitely from editing any article relating to the Shakespeare authorship question, William Shakespeare, or Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, all broadly construed." Have it your way. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

It's confusing wording, Tom. It should either be a ban naming a specific topic, i.e. 'the Shakespeare authorship question', minus the 'broadly construed', which is far too wide open to be clear, or it should be a ban against editing on specifically named pages, i.e. the Shakespeare Authorship page, the Oxfordian Authorship page, etc. A while ago I edited the page for the 15th Earl of Oxford, providing historical facts supported by reliable sources, and you thanked me for my contributions , yet that article could fall within this badly-worded ban. I think that demonstrates that the ban needs, at the very least, to be clarified, although as I've said, the preferable course would be for it to be lifted entirely, for any number of very good reasons. NinaGreen (talk) 18:13, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Do what you want, but the policy on topic bans is very clear. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:33, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

Tom, you may be right in stating that the policy on topic bans is very clear, but my point is that this particular ban is not only very unclear, but is manifestly illogical and unfair, as it is a topic ban on a topic (i.e. who wrote the Shakespeare canon) on which I have never made a single actual edit (or even attempted to make any such edit) during the entire time I've been on Misplaced Pages, both before and after the arbitration. As the person most interested in this topic ban you're personally well aware that I've never made a single actual edit, ever, on Misplaced Pages which either put forward the view that Oxford wrote the Shakespeare canon or that William Shakespeare of Stratford didn't write it. The topic ban is thus an absurdity. It should be lifted entirely, but when I attempted to have it lifted a few months ago, as you're aware, despite support from every member of the Misplaced Pages community who commented, including yourself, the arbitrators simply closed the application while support for it was still coming in from the community.NinaGreen (talk) 17:52, 23 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination William More (died 1600)

Hello! Your submission of William More (died 1600) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! — Rod 11:32, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Christopher More

I can't make a talkback tag link properly for some reason, so I'll answer here. The earlier articles were someone of that name trying to post his CV. He was persistent enough for the title to be salted (create protected), but he gave up years ago, so I have unsalted the title, and there is nothing to stop you going ahead at Christopher More. Regards, JohnCD (talk) 21:22, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Also, I count five places where Christopher More should be linked after the article is created: William More (died 1600) , More baronets , Surrey (UK Parliament constituency) , Elizabeth Wolley , Francis Wolley . Have fun! :)Naraht (talk) 21:39, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you both! NinaGreen (talk) 21:41, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to apologize for responding on the help desk as if you were a novice user. You've got more edits on English Nobility than I ever *want* to have! :)Naraht (talk) 21:43, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Did the wl. All five pages should be connected.Naraht (talk) 22:07, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again to both of you for help with the initial editing of the article. I'm particularly glad to learn about the underconstruction template, as it's often difficult to get a whole article done at once, and the template explains to readers why the article might look unfinished for a time. NinaGreen (talk) 22:10, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK? nomination review request

Hey Nina,

Could you please review this DYK? nomination of mine -- Template:Did you know nominations/Race and ethnic history of New York City. For the record, I previously reviewed one of your DYK? nominations (I think it was Walter Buckler). If not, that's okay, but please let me know your decision. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 00:26, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I can't do it today, but I'll take a look at it tomorrow. Best, NinaGreen (talk) 02:08, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

I looked at the DYK nomination just now, and another editor says he was asked to review it and will provide a detailed review later today. Best, NinaGreen (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, Thank you very much for offering, Nina. Even though Medeis is reviewing my New York City DYK? nomination, are you able to review my Ralph Tarrant DYK? nomination (it's located here--Template:Did you know nominations/Ralph Tarrant)? For the record, I have just finished reviewing your Christopher More DYK? nomination and I approved it. If you are unable to review my Ralph Tarrant DYK? nomination for some reason, please let me know, and that will likewise be okay. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 02:03, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

I see another editor has already reviewed and approved it. Best, NinaGreen (talk) 19:51, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Yeah. Anyway, I've got another DYK? nomination that needs to be reviewed--Template:Did you know nominations/Urbanization in the United States. If you're willing to review it, please let me know. If not, that's okay, but please tell me what your decision on this is. Thank you very much. Futurist110 (talk) 20:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

I've done some copyediting on the article, I think too much for me to review the article now. I hope the copyediting has been helpful. I fix some DAB links, deleted links to topics which seemed too general to require a link, added links to others which seemed to need them, broke the article into paragraphs for easier reading, tightened up the prose here and there, and enlarged one of the images to 150px as a sample (the images seem too small at 100 px). If there is any way you can move that large statistical table so that it runs directly under the article, with the images running alongside the whole thing, I think it would improve the look of the page. I hope this copyediting hasn't been intrusive. You can undo anything you like. Good luck with the nomination! NinaGreen (talk) 21:02, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for James Hales

On 17 January 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article James Hales, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir James Hales' suicide by drowning inspired the gravedigger's speech in Shakespeare's Hamlet? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/James Hales. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Shubinator (talk) 18:16, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William More (died 1600)

On 26 February 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William More (died 1600), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that a lawsuit by Sir William More brought the first Blackfriars Theatre to an end? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William More (died 1600). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:02, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Christopher More

On 5 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Christopher More, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Christopher More, stepuncle of Saint Thomas More, was one of the first officers in the Exchequer with formal legal training? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Christopher More. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of William Drury (died 1558)

A tag has been placed on William Drury (died 1558), requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. This has been done for the following reason:

Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Misplaced Pages criteria may be deleted at any time.

If you think that your page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. smileguy91 02:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Re: Your note re speedy deletion of article William Drury (died 1558)

You seem to be correct, according to my most recent research. There seems to be many people named Robert Drury or William Drury. Apologies for my late reply - I posted the link from my talk page to this talk page before I wrote the message. I'll negate my deletion notice when I can.smileguy91 02:43, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

There are a confusing number of people named Robert Drury and William Drury. :-) Looking forward to negation of the notice. Thanks. NinaGreen (talk) 02:45, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Negated. smileguy91 02:54, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Drury (died 1558)

On 11 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Drury (died 1558), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir William Drury's name appears in the Ellesmere manuscript of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Drury (died 1558). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:54, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Drury (died 1577)

On 13 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Drury (died 1577), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Robert Drury was among the first to support Mary Tudor's claim to the throne in July 1553? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Drury (died 1577). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Sackville (died 1557)

On 17 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Sackville (died 1557), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir John Sackville was an uncle of the English queen Anne Boleyn and a great-uncle of Queen Elizabeth I? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Sackville (died 1557). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Abraham Holland

Hi, I've just reviewed your DYK for Abraham Holland. I was going to do a DYK? as I feel to belt and brace the rule about ref appearing immediately at the end of the sentence, it needed to be right at the end of the sentence. I then decided just to put it in place myself but could you double check I have it right? Thanks! SagaciousPhil - Chat 12:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC) PS: There is also a DAB link for Folio.

Thanks for the review and for fixing the citation. I've fixed the DAB link. Best, NinaGreen (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Great, thanks! By the way, I always like your historical articles! SagaciousPhil - Chat 17:03, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

No surprise here. You should be advised that Nina Green is an eminent new historian of Renaissance English society. Her work on WP still lacks the overall recognition it deserves... It will come eventually, of course. warshy 17:56, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Stafford

On 21 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth Stafford, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that while Elizabeth Stafford's family was in exile in Geneva in 1556, the Protestant reformer, John Calvin, stood godfather to her youngest brother, John Stafford? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Stafford. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:02, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Scott (died 1533)

On 23 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Scott (died 1533), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir John Scott was the grandfather of Reginald Scott, author of The Discoverie of Witchcraft? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Scott (died 1533). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:03, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

QpQ

Done. Also replied at Template:Did you know nominations/Leslie Finer. Thanks again. Δρ.Κ.  00:01, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Abraham Holland

On 24 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Abraham Holland, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that after having written a poem on the 1625 great plague of London, the poet Abraham Holland died of the plague the following year? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Abraham Holland. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:04, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Philemon Holland

Hello! Your submission of Philemon Holland at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! —David Eppstein (talk) 19:56, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Philemon Holland

On 26 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Philemon Holland, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Philemon Holland claimed that he wrote out the whole of his translation of Plutarch's Moralia with a single quill pen? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Philemon Holland. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Chamal  08:03, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Sir Thomas Gray

Before I plunge ahead with a talking point in the Discussion section of the article "Thomas Grey (chronicler), I thought I'd check with you first since I saw your name as a frequent recent contributor to the article. I'm going to propose changing the spelling of the surname (and therefore, the article title) to conform with what appears to be the most frequent form found in references, that is, "GrAy". In fact, I've never come across the "E" spelling for this man before. From what I can tell, this was an editing choice back in 2008, with no apparent reference to back it up. Your thoughts. Tmangray (talk) 07:18, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. I googled "Thomas Gray" and "Scalacronica" just now, and got some 2700 hits. I then googled "Thomas Grey" and "Scalacronica", and got some 1300 hits. There does thus seem to be a preference for the 'Gray' spelling of the surname, but despite that, one of the hits I got for the 'Grey' spelling was a contemporary document from the reign of Edward III , and three others were scholarly works discussing him, so all in all I'd be inclined to leave the spelling in the title as is, if only because it links up with Misplaced Pages articles on members of the family in succeeding generations who seem to have used the 'Grey' spelling. Hope that's helpful. NinaGreen (talk) 23:08, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

But doesn't the Scalacronica itself have his name with the "A" spelling? Since this is his most notable work, it would make more sense to use that spelling. Tmangray (talk) 22:11, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Matthew Browne

On 29 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Matthew Browne, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Matthew Browne was involved in legal and financial transactions concerning the Globe Theatre in 1601? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Matthew Browne. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:03, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Margery Golding

Nina, how would an article about Margery Golding be titled? I've got enough information but I don't know how it should be titled: Margery Golding, since that's the name most used, or Margery de Vere, Countess of Oxford, with a redirect from "Margery Golding"? Tom Reedy (talk) 15:26, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

This problem crops up all the time on Misplaced Pages, and hasn't been resolved in the Misplaced Pages manual of style. My preference is to use a woman's maiden name, in this case, 'Margery Golding', particularly if the woman has been married more than once. A few days ago I did an article on Elizabeth Bacon. Initially I titled it 'Elizabeth Neville' because her second husband was Sir Henry Neville and she has been identified as the owner of a manuscript book of music by William Byrd, My Ladye Nevells Booke. But after she married her third husband, the judge Sir William Peryam, she was apparently known as Lady Peryam for the rest of her life, and made her will as 'Lady Periam', so I changed the title of the article to her maiden name, 'Elizabeth Bacon'.

Another reason for using a woman's maiden name in the title (this is just my impression from reading documents of the period) is that women whose husbands had been knighted or who had a title didn't seem to attach their husbands' surnames to their own Christian names at the time, although they were commonly referred to as 'Lady (husband's surname)' or 'Countess (husband's title)'. So, for example, while she was married to Sir Henry Neville, Elizabeth Bacon was referred to in contemporary documents as 'Lady Neville', but whether she was ever actually referred to in documents of the period as 'Elizabeth Neville' is moot. Ditto for Peryam. While she was married to Sir William Peryam, she was referred to as 'Lady Peryam', but whether she was ever referred to in contemporary documents as 'Elizabeth Peryam' is again moot. I think the custom of women attaching their husbands' surnames to their own Christian names, and being commonly known and referred to in that way, is probably more recent than the Tudor period (although I haven't researched the subject in detail). Hope that helps. NinaGreen (talk) 16:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

It does, thanks. I'm on the road this weekend and I'm gonna be holed up in a hotel room, so I'll have something to fill my time writing that article! Good work on Strachey, BTW. He's one of my favorite also-rans. Tom Reedy (talk) 16:12, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm using Elizabeth Trentham, Countess of Oxford as a model, since she was a commoner who married an earl also. Tom Reedy (talk) 03:26, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Be my guest, but I find the combination of maiden name and title odd, although it seems to have become popular on Misplaced Pages along with some other odd locutions. The ODNB uses this format:

Howard , Elizabeth, duchess of Norfolk (1497–1558)

Vere , Anne de, countess of Oxford (1556–1588)

Hastings , Elizabeth, countess of Huntingdon

Carey , Elizabeth, Lady Hunsdon

Cary , Elizabeth, Viscountess Falkland

I think just the woman's maiden name in the article title, and then the ODNB format in the opening line would be a good model for Misplaced Pages to adopt. NinaGreen (talk) 04:46, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Henry Berkeley, 7th Baron Berkeley

On 31 March 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Henry Berkeley, 7th Baron Berkeley, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Henry Berkeley, 7th Baron Berkeley, is said to have rebuilt Caludon Castle in about 1580 after its deterioration following the 1398 banishment from England of Thomas Mowbray, 1st Duke of Norfolk? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Henry Berkeley, 7th Baron Berkeley. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 08:02, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Roger Townshend (died 1590)

On 3 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Roger Townshend (died 1590), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Roger Townshend's portrait was among those on a tapestry commemorating the destruction of the Spanish Armada which hung in the House of Lords until the tapestry was destroyed by fire in 1834? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Roger Townshend (died 1590). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 16:02, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Elizabeth Bacon (died 1621)

Hello! Your submission of Elizabeth Bacon (died 1621) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. For the DYK rule, could you insert a ref for the last line in the article, I've temporarily stuck a {{cn}} tag there; sorry, I know it's a bit of a pain and may need a ref for each of her marriages but the DYK rule is a ref for every paragraph (or maybe just move it up so it becomes the final sentence of the preceding paragraph?) SagaciousPhil - Chat 10:37, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

• Ignore the above - I decided to just go ahead and move it myself so I can pass the nomination - hope that's okay? SagaciousPhil - Chat 10:39, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Much appreciated. NinaGreen (talk) 15:15, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Phew, I can breathe a sigh of relief now as it's already been promoted to prep 2! SagaciousPhil - Chat 15:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

A page you started has been reviewed!

Thanks for creating Joan Leche, NinaGreen!

Misplaced Pages editor I dream of horses just reviewed your page, and wrote this note for you:

I added some links.

To reply, leave a comment on I dream of horses's talk page.

Learn more about page curation.

Talkback

DYK for Thomas Brend

On 8 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Thomas Brend, which you created or substantially expanded. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Brend. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Materialscientist (talk) 06:25, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Bacon (died 1621)

On 8 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth Bacon (died 1621), which you created or substantially expanded. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Bacon (died 1621). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Allen3  22:33, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Michael Stanhope (died 1552)

On 10 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Michael Stanhope (died 1552), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Michael Stanhope was beheaded on Tower Hill on 26 February 1552 after having been convicted of conspiring to take the life of John Dudley, 1st Duke of Northumberland, and others? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Stanhope (died 1552). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 23:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Bourchier (died 1557)

On 11 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth Bourchier (died 1557), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in June 1537 Elizabeth Bourchier's servant received two shillings as a reward for bringing strawberries and cream to the future Queen Mary? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Bourchier (died 1557). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 08:02, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Leveson (died 1621)

On 13 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Leveson (died 1621), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that William Leveson was sued by the Virginia Company in 1613? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Leveson (died 1621). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Panyd 08:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

A bowl of strawberries for you!

For an elegant compromise :) Irondome (talk) 00:40, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I love strawberries! NinaGreen (talk) 01:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

I hope you are not...

thinking that I am trying to rain on your parade. Last night I was convinced that the only issue was that the article's name was unusual. On waking this morning I found that the article's name was the smaller of the two issues, and that genuine notability needed to be addressed first. I see him as borderline notable because i feel he inherits much of his notability from his surroundings. The verifiability also comes rom there, though I am sure the source passes WP:RS. On balance he is probably notable, but I may be basing that ion the paucity of notable people available at the time. I feel we need an absolute yardstick.

I wanted to drop this note on your talk page rather than the article's talk page because it is form me to you, tangentially about the article. I was asked to come and look at the discussion, and, if I have an opinion to offer, try very hard to add value to the discussion. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

What is a disambiguation page?

I suggest you use your sandbox.

Add {{Disambiguation}} to it and see what happens.

When you want to create a real one, make sure it is one you wish and need to create. The create Nina Green's Very Own Page (disambiguation) adding {{Disambiguation}} to it and a bulleted list of the articles it distinguishes between

Sometimes I am lousy at explaining things, but, if you place {{Helpme}} on your talk page and ask for specific guidance after it, someone better than I will drop by and do their best to guide and help you. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I've created a disambiguation page for Robert Throckmorton, and am trying to figure out the proper hatnote to use. Best, NinaGreen (talk) 19:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Re Hatnotes, please be aware of WP:NAMB - admittedly under discussion, but still in force. When the article titles are not ambiguous, they should not have hatnotes to the general name disambiguation page. So while Robert Throckmorton should have the hatnote, Sir Robert Throckmorton, 1st Baronet and Sir Robert Throckmorton, 8th Baronet should not. Benea (talk) 20:30, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Benea. I notice you undid my two redirects for the Edward Stafford disambiguation page and the Anne Hastings disambiguation page. I'm not clear on Misplaced Pages's policy. Should there not be a primary article titled simply Edward Stafford (likely the person Misplaced Pages users would be most likely to be searching for when they type in that name) with a disambiguation page which is titled Edward Stafford (disambiguation), with hatnotes added to all articles with Edward Stafford (plus disambiguator) in the title? That seems to me to be the logical way to set the system up, because readers looking for an article on a particularly well-known Edward Stafford want to be sent directly to that article, not to a disambiguation page with the title Edward Stafford which they have to sort through. It should be the primary article which is titled just plain Edward Stafford. It shouldn't be the disambiguation page which is titled just plain Edward Stafford. Just my thoughts. I'm new to this. NinaGreen (talk) 20:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

There should not be hatnotes on all articles that link to the disambiguation page, only if that title is ambiguous. For example, John Hales is considered the primary topic. That may be rightly or wrongly, I can't say. But when someone types in John Hales, or links to him in a wikipedia article, they will get the English theologian. If they actually wanted one of the five other people we have articles on named a disambiguated form of John Hales, the hatnote will allow them to move to the page to find the one they want. If they are on one of the disambiguated pages already, they have come to it not be accident looking for a generic John Hales, but that particular one. Finally, who is to say which is the primary topic in some cases. In the case of Edward Stafford, which is the one that is 'particularly well-known', so far above all others? In many cases we cannot say. For example, there is no primary topic for John Smith. The only exceptions are when there is consensus that one person of that name is by far and away the best known, for example though there are other George Washingtons and Winston Churchills, it is one particular person they are looking for 99% of the time that readers search for them. I've responded on your help desk query, but I will add in your examples of Thomas Savage, etc, where there exists no primary topic, it's not really for the sake of solving a disambiguation term dispute that one article will be designated a primary topic. Benea (talk) 21:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Thomas Savage (died 1611)

On 19 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Thomas Savage (died 1611), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Thomas Savage, Shakespeare's trustee in the purchase of shares in the Globe Theatre, was a friend of John Jackson, Shakepeare's trustee in the purchase of the Blackfriars Gatehouse? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Savage (died 1611). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:03, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Rowland Hayward

On 20 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Rowland Hayward, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in 1587 Sir Rowland Hayward entertained Queen Elizabeth I at his home of King's Place, which had once been owned by her father, King Henry VIII? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Rowland Hayward. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:03, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Richard Carmarden

On 21 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Richard Carmarden, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in 1566, Richard Carmarden funded the printing of an edition of the Great Bible in English at Rouen? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Richard Carmarden. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:03, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Rather lengthy, and some thoughts in return

One problem with Misplaced Pages is Too Long Didn't Read. I did read. You will notice that I have not commented on that talk page for a good length of time. This is because the article title truly does not matter.

No, really. It doesn't matter.

Why not?

Because it can be found anyway.

There is a point when one steps away from a battle. That point is when one realises that things do not matter, and that doing something else is more productive. One of the combatants seems to be on Misplaced Pages to have battles, though I suspect he does not realise that yet. When he does I think he will stop. He's doing it in all sorts of other paces, too, and with an imperfect understanding of those areas as well.

I'm sorry I came to the article. WIth hindsight I think I achieved a negative benefit for the article, but these things are transient.

What I suggest is that you let this article take its chances and work on a new one. I like your work. I think this load of mess is a distraction. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 19:06, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I agree about the 'combatant'. An experienced editor needs to have a word with him. It's so nice of you to say you like my articles. I'm working on a new one right now. Best, NinaGreen (talk) 20:18, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The time when the combatant is ready to hear is when he will listen. Much advice has been given by many editors of experience, but the sad fact is that little notice is taken so far.

So continue on your way doing your best, and enjoy what you are doing. Articles are the key. We are ere to build an encyclopaedia, probably. Fiddle Faddle (talk) 20:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

List of National Trust properties in Somerset

Thank you for your DYK review of List of National Trust properties in Somerset. It was the most comprehensive I've ever seen, including correcting my poor grammar on several of the articles linked from the list - great work.— Rod 14:45, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

You're most welcome! NinaGreen (talk) 14:47, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Katharine Way

On 26 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Katharine Way, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that nuclear physicist Katharine Way co-edited a 1946 bestseller which included essays by Niels Bohr, Albert Einstein and Robert Oppenheimer, and sold over 100,000 copies? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Katharine Way. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Matthew Brend

On 28 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Matthew Brend, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Matthew Brend conveyed the property on which the Globe Theatre was built to his wife, Frances? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Matthew Brend. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:04, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Sigismund Zinzan

On 29 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Sigismund Zinzan, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Sigismund Zinzan tilted in the tournament celebrating the creation of King James's son, Henry, as Prince of Wales in 1610, and led a horse draped in black at Henry's funeral in 1612? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Sigismund Zinzan. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Joan Leche

On 29 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Joan Leche, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Joan Leche founded a school in Saffron Walden which Gabriel Harvey attended in the early 1560s, where according to Thomas Nashe he was a "desperate stabber with pen-knives"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Joan Leche. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:04, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Nicholas Brend

On 30 April 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Nicholas Brend, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that when Nicholas Brend, the first owner of the Globe Theatre, died in 1601, his heir was his infant son, Matthew, who would not come of age until 6 February 1621? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Nicholas Brend. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Dorothy Kitson

On 2 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Dorothy Kitson, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Dorothy Kitson was one of the few women in Tudor England to nominate burgesses for Parliament? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Dorothy Kitson. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:02, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Attribution and Template:Infobox person

If the text in a Misplaced Pages article has a substantial amount of text or structure that would be enough to be a breach of copyright if the work was not in the public domain then it must meet the attribution criteria laid down in WP:PLAGIARISM. The history articles John Pakington (serjeant-at-law) is clearly a copy of the the DNB article and so the attribution template {{DNB}} needs to remain on the article and inline citations need to be provided to the DNB citation. This is particularly true for text copied from a DNB article because there is a danger that otherwise the article will be flagged as a breach of ONDB copyright.

I suspect that we approach biographies of historical English people from opposite ends of the spectrum. I put the emphasis on their historical notability while you are more interested in the genealogy of the subject. This in itself does not matter as we will probably meet in the middle. However there is one area where I think you are placing too much emphasis on genealogy which distorts the article and that is the {{Infobox person}} I think for that you should only place information in the box that is notable for that person and that should in addition to the information you have provided one or more of theses three fields (or similar)

| occupation =

| known_for =

| notable_works =

(for example I added "| occupation = Serjeant-at-law, MP and Sheriff of Herefordshire and Worcesershire" ) to John Pakington (serjeant-at-law). I also think you should substantially reduce the genealogy in those boxes for example in the William Dormer article wording along the lines of "He had about a dozen children including (and only explicitly mention the three for which there are articles)" and remove non-notable information (such as the names of children who died in infancy or were not themselves notable). Similarly if there are no articles on the parents then why mention them in the infobox as presumably they are not notable? -- PBS (talk) 14:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hopefully we can 'meet in the middle'. The point is that I began work on several articles which hadn't had much done to them for a very considerable period of time, and you've now taken an interest in them, which in general I welcome. However deleting factual information I've added isn't helpful. The genealogical aspect is important, particularly in Infoboxes, because the links it generates to other Misplaced Pages articles is what makes Misplaced Pages stand out from other sources of biographical information, and often leads to the generation of further Misplaced Pages articles on historical persons who have some claim to notability. If you can be tolerant of that, I think we can collaborate successfully on these articles. I've tried to conform to your style of referencing, which is a bit difficult for me as I'm unfamiliar with it. As to the issue of notability, once the subject has been deemed sufficiently notable, not every fact in the article is notable in itself, including the names of children, but also including many other facts which are routinely included in biographical articles but which in themselves are not notable. On the plagiarism issue, I didn't create the original article on Sir John Pakington, and my objective is to improve it so that any claim that earlier editors plagiarized the material (if that's what they did) can be eliminated. I didn't remove the link to the Wikisource DNB article (which incidentally didn't work); I merely added it at the end of the reference to the updated ODNB article. NinaGreen (talk) 14:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually my interest was in passing as I have them on my watch list, but I am working on other things which are higher up my list, and only tend to look at these types of articles when someone changes them, nice additions John Pakington (serjeant-at-law) (which thanks to your work as had to be renamed!). I have added the OED entry to Chirographer.

The citation style was unfamiliar to me at first! But using {{sfn}} is neat because it automagically takes care of multiple citations and providing {[tl|citation}} or ref=harv are used automatically link to the long reference. BTW I prefer to place the long references on one line starting with surname, first-name, year because it is easier to deal with (and sort) a list of multiple references when editing with a small screen.

Just one nit pick with your most recent edits to John Pakington. If you split a paragraph which has a citation at the end to cover all of the paragraph (or add information into the paragraph with a new citation), please remember to copy the citation at the end of the paragraph to new locations so that it covers the information in the new leading paragraph and/or the information before the insertions (see WP:text-source integrity) -- PBS (talk) 12:04, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm surprised you moved the page without consultation after I had to move it because the article title turned out to be totally inaccurate (i.e. he was never a serjeant-at-law). That is the main problem with these descriptors. Sometimes they turn out to be totally inaccurate, and often they merely focus on one narrow aspect of the person's life which is not an aspect which Misplaced Pages users at all familiar with the person would search for or even know of, whereas they would know the approximate date of his death and be able to pick him out on that basis on the disambiguation page. The new title you've given the article focuses on two narrow aspects of his life which don't accurately describe his career. It seems you know something of the period, and I'd welcome the opportunity of working with you on these articles. However so far it seems you're simply imposing your ideas (i.e. the style of referencing to be used on the page, the new article title) on someone who's doing most of the actual work. NinaGreen (talk) 15:11, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

The use of job descriptions in dab extensions is the norm and in part it comes down to notability. A biographical article is written because the subject is notable. If there are two or more subjects with the same name then the dab should reflect their notability. This is standard practice (and as such I did not think it controversial to move the page to a descriptive dab). As to covering all of a subject's life achievements, the dab could be extended to be a short biography but that is discouraged and they should be kept as brief as possible and (obviously) unique. The reason I did not choose MP alone was because he was an MP for a relative short period, and sheriff alone as a dab has problems because there is also John Pakington (died 1625) who were also a sheriff. I probably should have gone with the one word descriptor used by the ODNB which is "judge" and if you like we can move it to that. The problem with dates is that it tells you nothing about the man and it may well be that the lives of two men overlap, so without knowing a lot about the man date dabs are not very helpful. As to your parting comment, I am sure on reflection you will appreciate that such comments are not collegial -- on some pages I have contributed more than on others that the advantage of a joint project like this one. -- PBS (talk) 19:08, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Reverting another editor's work is always controversial. Moreover I think you've missed the point about descriptors. For contemporary figures they make sense because there's usually a generally-accepted descriptor which is recognizable to a large number of Misplaced Pages users. For historical figures from as far back as the Tudor period, descriptors often don't work well because people from that era wore many occupational 'hats' during a lifetime, and often no single one really adequately describes the person. 'MP and Sheriff' certainly doesn't adequately describe Sir John Pakington's career. On the other hand, dates of death often are useful, firstly because there's usually no argument about when the person died, and secondly because Misplaced Pages users searching for persons from the Tudor period are generally directed straight to a disambiguation page where the easiest way to sort through the various entries is by date of death. If there are two Sir John Pakingtons, and one died in 1551 and the other in 1625, any Misplaced Pages user who knows anything about the period (and what other Misplaced Pages user would be likely to be searching for a Sir John Pakington than one with some knowledge of the period?) is going to immediately know which of the two Sir John Pakingtons he/she is interested in. A blind insistence on occupational descriptors for historical figures from the Tudor period hinders Misplaced Pages users rather than helps them. As for collegiality, as I said before, imposing your views without consultation with respect to the style of referencing and page title when you're not actually doing much editing on the page isn't collegial. Collegiality is a two-way street. NinaGreen (talk) 19:40, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Pakington

On 10 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Pakington, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that after Robert Pakington was shot to death on the morning of 13 November 1536 while on his way to Mass, his murder was interpreted as a Protestant martyrdom? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Pakington. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Alice Baldwin

On 20 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Alice Baldwin, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that 400 years after Alice Baldwin surrendered Burnham Abbey at the Dissolution of the Monasteries, it was sold to a religious order and again became a community of nuns? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Alice Baldwin. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Anthony Stapleton

On 24 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Anthony Stapleton, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that although Anthony Stapleton was granted the reversion of the office of Town Clerk of London in 1544, he was not able to take up the position until 1570? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Anthony Stapleton. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:22, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Amadas

On 27 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Amadas, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that although implicated in corruption in the administration of the Mint in 1528, Robert Amadas retained his position as Henry VIII's Master of the Jewel House until his death in 1532? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Amadas. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:04, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Hales (died 1608)

On 27 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Hales (died 1608), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that John Hales was fined 1000 marks and imprisoned for allowing two of the Marprelate tracts to be printed at the Whitefriars, Coventry? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Hales (died 1608). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:03, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Michael Dormer (Lord Mayor)

On 28 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Michael Dormer (Lord Mayor), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that 300 years after Sir Michael Dormer purchased property that became a free school in Horsham, it was found that the school belonged to his heir at law? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Dormer (Lord Mayor). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:03, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Mary Scrope

On 30 May 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Mary Scrope, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Mary Scrope was among those who walked with Anne Boleyn to the scaffold? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Mary Scrope. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:02, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Palacio Haedo

Howz dat?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 16:59, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Richard Jerningham

On 13 June 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Richard Jerningham, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in October 1518 Richard Jerningham was one of the "sad and ancient knights" appointed to King Henry VIII's reorganized Privy Chamber? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Richard Jerningham. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 03:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Broughton (died 1506)

On 13 June 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Broughton (died 1506), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Robert Broughton was made a Knight of the Bath at the marriage in 1478 of the four-year-old Richard, Duke of York, one of the two princes later said to have been murdered in the Tower of London? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Broughton (died 1506). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:48, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Edmund Walsingham

Hello! Your submission of Edmund Walsingham at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! czar · · 06:06, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

ODNB

Thank you for this improvement to the John Barkstead article. But if you make such a change please cite the reliable source from which the information came. In the case of the ODNB there is a template available to help and speed up the process

• {{ODNB|id=1426 |title=Barkstead, John (d. 1662)}} which gives
• "Barkstead, John (d. 1662)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/1426. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)

But it also takes all the other usual parameters such as |first=Christopher |last=Durston |origyear=2004 |year=2008 |ref=harv which produces:

• Durston, Christopher (2008) . "Barkstead, John (d. 1662)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/1426. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)

-- PBS (talk) 15:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the information concerning the ODNB template. I'll try it out. I've been working on an article on the Lieutenants of the Tower, and have added a few facts to the articles on the individual Lieutenants as I've come across them, just citing the ODNB in the edit summary for future reference. Also, thanks for the earlier information on the sfn format for citations. I've been using it regularly since then, and it's much simpler. You know a lot about this sort of thing, and I appreciate the pointers. NinaGreen (talk) 16:56, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Lieutenant of the Tower

Hi. Good job with the article, which must have been a lot of work! It could use a photo or drawing of one or two of the most prominent Lieutenants, if you can find any. I am happy to be a co-nom, if you like, but I have no idea how to do the nomination process. I can suggest, as a possible hook: "...that in 1517, during the Evil May Day riots, the Lieutenant of the Tower of London fired artillery into the City of London, drawing the ire of the city elders." Send me a link if you nominate it. All the best. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:14, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the extra images. Looks great. I've nominated the article (see the article Talk page). Thanks also for the suggested hook. I used a hook which included several Lieutenants, but if that doesn't work, we can use the Evil May Day hook as an alternate. NinaGreen (talk) 17:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Let me know if you need any further help. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Parsley Peel

Morning Nina. Just regarding Parsley Peel, I worked on it in my userspace for a good few weeks before putting it live - it hit mainspace on 17 June, which is when I nominated it for DYK. Unless anything's changed in the process, I believe that's still fine - odd the tool missed it. Worm(talk) 07:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I've given it a tick. NinaGreen (talk) 16:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Edmund Walsingham

On 22 June 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Edmund Walsingham, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that it was to Sir Edmund Walsingham that Sir Thomas More made his final ironic jest while ascending the scaffold? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Edmund Walsingham. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:04, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Lieutenant of the Tower of London

On 23 June 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Lieutenant of the Tower of London, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that at least five of the Lieutenants of the Tower of London were later prisoners in the Tower themselves? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Lieutenant of the Tower of London. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

17th Earl of Oxford

Nina, Have you given up editing the article on 17th Earl of Oxford? If you have been deterred by other editors you might find you now have someone who shares some of your views Sceptic1954 (talk) 19:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. Even though I rewrote the entire Edward de Vere article in the late fall of 2010, and most of what I wrote is still there, together with the reliable sources I cited, Misplaced Pages has specifically banned me from editing that article. I could ask again to have the ban lifted, but it's a horrible process. When I asked to have the ban lifted a few months ago, my application was arbitrarily closed off while comments were still coming in from the Misplaced Pages community, and without the arbitrators having actually voted on it. Very disheartening. NinaGreen (talk) 19:27, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I've been trying to find out why you got banned (I was once banned from editing indefinitely, it took me more than a year before I asked for the ban to be removed, which it was without too much trouble.) I'd be interested in supporting you if you reapplied. Sceptic1954 (talk) 22:12, 24 June 2013 (UTC) Is it possible to email you privately? Sceptic1954 (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the offer of support. I really do appreciate it. I'm glad your ban was lifted without too much trouble. I seem to be some sort of exception. I wouldn't want to try again unless I had a guarantee in advance from the arbitrators that I would be treated fairly. I went through an extremely unfair arbitration in the first place, and then had a similarly unfair experience when my application for reinstatement was arbitrarily (pun intended) cut off while community support was still coming in, and before the arbitrators had even voted on my application. NinaGreen (talk) 02:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Shaa

On 29 June 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Shaa, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the court of requests instituted by Sir John Shaa while he was Lord Mayor of London proved unpopular because it favoured the poor more than "Justyce & good lawe Requyrid"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Shaa. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 10:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Husee

On 30 June 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Husee, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the letters written by John Husee while he was servant to Lord Lisle in 1533–40 have been described as "a joy and a revelation to read"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Husee. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 17:53, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Joan Wilkinson

On 2 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Joan Wilkinson, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Joan Wilkinson was a silkwoman to Anne Boleyn and supplied bonnets and frontlets to Lady Lisle? You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

I really love your articles on Tudor personalities. Congratulations on your amazing work. Gareth E Kegg (talk) 09:40, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! You've made my day! NinaGreen (talk) 17:34, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	For writing Richard Carmarden - a fascinating (and wonderfully esoteric) subject :). Ironholds (talk) 02:13, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! NinaGreen (talk) 20:41, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Thomas Tuddenham

On 24 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Thomas Tuddenham, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Thomas Tuddenham was beheaded on Tower Hill on 23 February 1462 for allegedly plotting to murder King Edward IV? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Tuddenham. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 20:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Browne (died 1514)

On 25 July 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Browne (died 1514), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir William Browne was present as Lord Mayor of London when the emissary of Pope Leo X presented Henry VIII with a "sword and cap of mystic value"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Browne (died 1514). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Orlady (talk) 21:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Your topic ban

It's been brought to my attention that you have been making edits on the topics of various Shakespeare plays. Unless I'm missing something, I'm afraid that per the Arbcom decision you are still topic-banned not only from the authorship question but also from Shakespeare in general, broadly construed, so these edits would seem to be in breach of the sanction. I'm not particularly keen on having to enforce this through blocks, as long as the edits themselves appear to have been constructive and uncontroversial, but I'll still have to ask you to keep to the rules.

If you wish to have the sanction modified so as to allow you to make Shakespeare edits outside the SAQ topic, I guess there might well be a chance to get such a modification, but you'd have to do that through an appeal at WP:ARA. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the message, Future Perfect. I think the ban should be lifted entirely by Arb Com without my having to apply again. I applied earlier to have it lifted (see above), and my application was unfairly and arbitrarily shut down while support from the community was still coming in (support from the community was unanimous at the time, by the way). Under those circumstances I should not have to apply again. Arb Com should just lift the entire ban of its own volition. I've made thousands of edits to Misplaced Pages on several hundred different articles, supplying information and reliable sources which have enormously benefited Misplaced Pages in those subject areas, and have had more than fifty of the articles I've created or expanded featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page under DYK. The basis of the original arbitration decision was that I was a single-purpose editor, which the editing I've done proves beyond doubt was an erroneous finding of fact by the arbitrators. Perhaps you could contact the arbitrators to suggest they lift the ban of their own volition? If they're fair-minded people, I'm sure they'd do it. As for violating the ban, I don't think I've done that. The entire arbitration concerned the Shakespeare Authorship Question, and so the arbitration sanctions, even broadly construed, should not go beyond the SAQ if the arbitrators were being fair and judicious. I don't think the arbitrators did intend it to go beyond that topic. Again, thanks for your message, and hopefully you'll contact the arbitrators as per my suggestion and put it to them that they should lift the entire ban of their own volition. I'm a very useful and productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, as the editing I've done proves, and I should not be banned from editing on any Misplaced Pages page, particularly when the ban was imposed on the basis of the erroneous finding of fact by the arbitrators that I'm a single purpose editor. NinaGreen (talk) 16:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid that's not how it works. The arbs were quite explicit in the original decision that clearly stated you were being banned not only from the SAQ but also from Shakespeare as a whole ("topic-banned indefinitely from editing any article relating to the Shakespeare authorship question, William Shakespeare, or Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, all broadly construed"), and that decision still stands. They were also quite explicit during the amendment discussion that they didn't want to either lift or even just narrow the ban. I have to agree it is somewhat unusual to see such a near-unanimously harsh reaction from the committee at a time when even the editors who had been your main content opponents were signalling support for you, but for the moment we are still left with this decision.

You could do several things now: as some of the arbs indicated they might be more willing to consider an appeal after a longer period of time, and more than half a year has indeed passed now again, you could try to appeal again now (though I can understand you are not particularly thrilled at the thought). You could also try an appeal with a somewhat narrower scope (not a full lifting but a narrowing down of the restriction). You could theoretically also try sidestepping the arbitrators and appeal not to them but directly to the whole community (although that's a bit of a risk and I don't think it's been successful very often.) But what you really shouldn't do is to sit there waiting for the ban to go away all by itself – people just won't do that work for you; the person taking the first step will have to be you. What you should do even less is to just ignore the ban and pretend it doesn't apply – that will certainly backfire. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again for your message, Future Perfect. I agree that that's not how it usually works, but this is a very unusual case because my earlier application was prematurely cut off with no explanation while support from the community was still coming in. Moreover the original decision was based on an erroneous finding of fact by the arbitrators that I was a single purpose editor. And since the entire arbitration was over the Shakespeare Authorship Question, the ban obviously went far beyond the stated purpose of the arbitration. Misplaced Pages has to present itself to the outside world as a place where editors will be treated fairly, particularly by the arbitrators, and these circumstances do not give the appearance of fairness in the slightest. For those reasons I think the ball is in the arbitrators' court. It's entirely in their power to lift the ban of their own accord without any further discussion. They can see the record of my editing. Why would the arbitrators wish to continue to penalize, after two and a half years have passed, a very productive member of the Misplaced Pages community? It doesn't present a very attractive picture of Misplaced Pages to the outside world. NinaGreen (talk) 17:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Fut.Perf., your comments are helpful in showing the eccentricity of ArbCom's ban, which in my view lacks any purposive foundation, quite apart from having lost what little community support it might once have had. The ban, as you say, covers "any article relating to William Shakespeare, broadly construed", but just how broadly should that be construed? If articles on all plays attributed to Shakespeare are off limits, then why not those on the Globe Theatre, Stratford on Avon, Bishopsgate, Southwark, the City of London, Hedingham Castle, Queens' College, Cambridge, Cecil House, and the Kingdom of England? Every penalty must be clearly expressed, but this one has to be interpreted, and that simply creates confusion. Please do take the initiative in revisiting the matter and removing the ban. Moonraker (talk) 23:12, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Crosby (died 1476)

On 23 August 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Crosby (died 1476), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir John Crosby's former mansion in Bishopsgate, Crosby Hall, is the "only extant example of domestic architecture built for a London merchant in the Middle Ages"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Crosby (died 1476). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Alex Shih 12:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Family sections at the start of biography articles

FYI: One of the major differences between the DNB and the ODNB is that the ONDB has cut out most of the genealogical information from their biographies. This is a trend that one can see in many similar references works compiled and published post World War II.

I have removed the section you label "family" at the start of Francis Manners, 6th Earl of Rutland, in doing so I have also removed the mention of his brothers from the first paragraph. As we have discussed previously this is a general encyclopaedia, it does not focus on genealogy. Therefore if his relationship with his brothers is notable then they will be mentioned in the bibliography section (in this case his brothers played a significant part in his public life, so they are mentioned in the text, and I have supplemented that by adding the information about which one was older and which one was younger than the Francis: "On his return to England he took part, along with his older bother Roger and their younger bother George, in the 1601 rebellion...").

What is not needed in are sections at the start of a biography article listing what may or may not be notable relationships with other members of the subject's family, because they overemphasise the genealogy (tail wagging the dog), so I have removed the Family section from the start of the biography on the 6th Earl of Rutland and will take similar action when I find such as section in other articles. -- PBS (talk) 07:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I disagree because what Misplaced Pages offers which the ODNB doesn't offer is links to hundreds of other articles on persons of the period which illuminate the actions taken by people of the period, which were often based on kinship. This feature is unique to Misplaced Pages, but cannot be taken advantage of unless some attention is paid to the subject's family members. You mention that you've removed the mention of Francis Manners' two brothers from the first paragraph. This illustrates my point. Francis succeeded his elder brother, and was succeeded by his younger brother, who are both notable, and who have separate Misplaced Pages articles, to which I provided links. And the ODNB article mentions both (although the ODNB erroneously gives the name of Francis's younger brother and successor as 'John', which I advised the ODNB of in an e-mail yesterday), so if we are using the ODNB as a guide to content (which I think we should be cautious about since if Misplaced Pages is merely a copy of the ODNB then what's the point?), the ODNB does in fact mention the two brothers, whose names you've deleted from the first paragraph of the article.

We're interested in the same historical period, and I hope we can work together. Might I suggest that prAshton erroneously states that Hungerford's second wife was the daughter of Jane Dormer.ch contains links to other Misplaced Pages articles, you place a note on the article's Talk page so that discussion can take place among all interested parties prior to the removal of the content, if in fact that is the consensus after discussion? I understand that's the accepted practice on Misplaced Pages when the issue is removal of content which has been sourced to reliable sources and which has links to other Misplaced Pages articles. NinaGreen (talk) 15:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I do not think you clearly understood what I wrote. If the brothers are notable in the biography of the subject then they will appear naturally in the text of the biography so there is no need to list them in a section at the start of the biography. In this case I have highlighted in green in this section where I have done this. So there is no removal of content. In the case of the Knight of Farley I went to move information about his extended family of siblings to his father's biography only to find the identical text there, so there is no need to include it in a separate section near the start of the Knight of Farley's biography -- as the obvious place to look up his siblings is in his father's biography.

As I have highlighted above, Misplaced Pages NOT makes it clear that articles are not simply random collection of facts, and genealogical information is only acceptable if it supports and enhances other notable information. -- PBS (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

You have brought up another point: erroneous information. In several articles that I have read and edited in the last few days you have made comments such as this:

• "Hardy erroneously dates the letter to 1589"
• "Ashton erroneously states that Hungerford's second wife was the daughter of Jane Dormer"

(here). The problem is that this is a POV based on your OR. As an editor you have several choices on how to handle erroneous information provided in (what are often old) secondary sources, but you can not state in the published Misplaced Pages text that it erroneous unless you have a source that does it for you. The second option is to mention it on the talk page or place it in a hidden inline comment <!--Hardy erroneously dates the letter to 1589--> to warn other editors. The third is simply to silently ignore the incorrect/old information -- more modern sources (such as the ONDB) often alter information found in 100 year old biographies, this is normal history. The final option is simply to footnote the discrepancy eg:

• Hardy dates the letter to 1589

One other thing that I notice is that when copying quotes from a British English source, you sometimes use single quotation marks. The MOS dictates that articles use doubles (see MOS:QUOTEMARKS).

By and large I approve of the changes you have made to the articles and I hope you take these comments as ways that we can improve articles, rather than confrontational (which is unfortunately all to common on Misplaced Pages). For example while looking through the changes you had made I decided that two more articles were necessary because your edits highlighed them in several places :

• Anthony Hungerford of Down Ampney
• William Darrell of Littlecote

The latter is stub and could do with an expansion, particularly as there was a link from Wild William Darrell to Littlecote House#Wild William Darrell which is a sort of sourced biography of the man.

At the moment I have lots to do which are not directly linked to this historical period see for example Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Catholicism#Unacknowledged internal copying and problems with citations so I for one will not be expanding Wild William Darrell in the near future. -- PBS (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any point in continuing this discussion as what you're pushing is your personal preference, not Misplaced Pages policy. There are literally hundreds of Misplaced Pages biographies of historical personages created and added to by earlier Misplaced Pages editors which contain the type of information to which you object, and dozens of Misplaced Pages editors who currently add to and revise that type of information in Misplaced Pages biographies (I see it taking place daily in the articles which are on my watchlist). It would take a radical change in Misplaced Pages policy to authorize the deletion from Misplaced Pages of all that content.

I do want to make it clear, though, that your statement that the two notes I added are my 'POV based on OR' is false; the notes are supported by reliable sources cited in the relevant articles, and I added the notes merely to explain the discrepancies for the benefit of Misplaced Pages users. NinaGreen (talk) 06:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I know why you did it, but in format in which you added the derived information is a form of WP:SYN and is against the OR policy. As I wrote above there are several other options available to you to convey the same information. Another way is to say "Abc writing in 1866 states, this is not supported/contradicted by Xyz's more modern research", such wording does not draw a conclusion but states the facts. -- PBS (talk) 13:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I've changed the Dormer one (which is such a blatant error that it hardly seemed necessary to point out in the note that all other reliable sources state that Anne was the sister, not the daughter, of Jane Dormer; I've advised the ODNB of the error, BTW, and it will likely be corrected when the ODNB next puts revisions online). Someone else changed the Hardy one (perhaps you did?), which again is a very blatant error as the Calendar of State Papers, which I cited in the article, gives the correct date of the letter. When errors are very obviously blatant errors, it seems to me that it only confuses Misplaced Pages users to give the blatant error and the correct information equal weight, as Misplaced Pages policy seems to mandate, according to your comments above. But so be it.NinaGreen (talk) 16:58, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I would advise that you do not hold you breath on that amendment. I have two outstanding requests with the ODNB from 2011 one of which is a minor issue of changing initials of an artist of a picture of a subject of a biography from "I.J." to "J.J.". You are too used to the speed that Misplaced Pages changes! -- PBS (talk) 09:29, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Paston

See my comment at {{Did you know nominations/William Paston (died 1444)}}. Nyttend (talk) 04:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Poynings

On 22 September 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Poynings, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Robert Poynings was carver and sword-bearer to the rebel Jack Cade? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Poynings. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Adrian Poynings

On 24 September 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Adrian Poynings, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Adrian Poyning's orders for the English forces at Newhaven included the stricture that "Any English who shall fight without the town shall lose his right hand"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Adrian Poynings. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 20:47, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Richard Leveson portrait

Many thanks for your information on this, which I have used in the article. Sjwells53 (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

You're very welcome! NinaGreen (talk) 16:40, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for George Browne (died 1483)

On 26 September 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article George Browne (died 1483), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that a letter in the hand of Sir George Browne, later beheaded, containing the cryptic message "It shall never come out for me", survives among the Paston letters? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/George Browne (died 1483). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 05:49, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Mary Speke

with regards to our last conversation about articles on notable women and how to link to them. I have been working on a few biographies today and came across a hole in Misplaced Pages's coverage:

• Mary Speke

The husband and father article exist and now have red links to Mary Speke I am not really interested in creating a biography as editing the husband was one step further than I wanted to go and I only started it because the article on he husband linked to her brother and not her father. The DNB article has next to no coverage but the ONDB does see

• Zook, Melinda (May 2009) . "Speke, Mary". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (online ed.). Oxford University Press. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/67750. (Subscription or UK public library membership required.)

So I thought you might like do something with the information. -- PBS (talk) 14:49, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm a bit swamped right now, but I've looked at the ODNB article, and will keep Mary Speke in mind for a future article if someone else doesn't jump in first. NinaGreen (talk) 14:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Thomas Perrot

On 30 September 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Thomas Perrot, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that at a tournament before Queen Elizabeth I at Whitehall in 1581, Sir Thomas Perrot and 16 others defended the Castle of Beauty against the Earl of Arundel and Sir William Drury? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas Perrot. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 08:03, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Re: St. Louis Cathedral, Fort-de-France DYK

—Bloom6132 (talk) 17:50, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Paston (died 1479)

On 7 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Paston (died 1479), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that it is owing to Sir John Paston that we have an account of a famous tournament in England between Paston's friend, Earl Rivers, and the Bastard of Burgundy? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Paston (died 1479). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Balderschwang Yew

Hi NinaGreen, thanks for reviewing my submission, I believe addressed your concerns. Regards Hekerui (talk) 10:08, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! I've given the article a tick. NinaGreen (talk) 19:41, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Henry Heydon

On 12 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Henry Heydon, which you created or substantially expanded. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Henry Heydon. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Allen3  09:23, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Richard Hastings, Baron Welles

On 13 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Richard Hastings, Baron Welles, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Richard Hastings, Baron Welles attended the coronation of Richard III only three weeks after Richard had beheaded Hastings' brother, William? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Richard Hastings, Baron Welles. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:45, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Ralph Hastings (died 1495)

On 14 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Ralph Hastings (died 1495), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Ralph Hastings was Keeper of the Lions and Leopards in the Tower of London? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Ralph Hastings (died 1495). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:16, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Paston (died 1466)

On 14 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Paston (died 1466), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that between 1461 and 1465, John Paston, one of the writers of the Paston Letters, was outlawed, and imprisoned three times in the Fleet Prison? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Paston (died 1466). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Heydon (died 1479)

On 15 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Heydon (died 1479), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that John Heydon, believing the second child born to his wife Eleanor was not his, threatened to cut off her nose and kill the infant? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Heydon (died 1479). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Paston (died 1444)

On 15 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Paston (died 1444), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the letters of the family of William Paston are "the richest source there is for every aspect of the lives of gentlemen and gentlewomen of the English middle ages"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Paston (died 1444). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:04, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Wonderful. Well done. Drmies (talk) 14:13, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Thanks! Your comment is very much appreciated. NinaGreen (talk) 16:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Waterton

On 17 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Waterton, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Robert Waterton, as Constable of Pontefract Castle, had custody of Richard II of England after his deposition? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Waterton. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Talkback: you've got messages!

Did you know nominations/Haidoterminus

I have responded to your question at template:Did you know nominations/Haidoterminus.--Kevmin § 03:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Alice of Norfolk

On 26 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Alice of Norfolk, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Alice of Norfolk, daughter of Thomas of Brotherton and granddaughter of Edward I, died as a result of an assault by her husband and his retainers? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Alice of Norfolk. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Hugh Waterton

On 27 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Hugh Waterton, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that when Henry IV campaigned in Wales, he left his two children in the charge of Sir Hugh Waterton? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Hugh Waterton. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:03, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Edward of Norfolk

On 28 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Edward of Norfolk, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that two years after the magnificent wedding of Edward of Norfolk, his father-in-law was hanged at Tyburn? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Edward of Norfolk. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert de Lisle, 1st Baron Lisle

On 28 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert de Lisle, 1st Baron Lisle, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Robert de Lisle, 1st Baron Lisle, was the owner of an illuminated manuscript, the Lisle Psalter, now Arundel 83 in the British Library? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert de Lisle, 1st Baron Lisle. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:04, 28 October 2013 (UTC)

John Crabbe (died 1352)

What a wonderful article. I had always planned on writing an article on the subject since he is/was a namesake and a countryman. See User:Buster7/Sandbox-John Crabbe, Pirate for a rough draft. I'm so glad I never did. Mine would have been amateuristic compared to yours. Suggestion: The fact that he may have been the first to use a catapult aboard a ship may be worth DYK. Thanks again for the pleasure of reading your article. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:06, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

What a nice thing to say! Thanks so much! I submitted the article to DYK, and it was reviewed yesterday, so it will likely make its way to the Main Page in a few days. NinaGreen (talk)

DYK for Peter de Montfort

On 29 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Peter de Montfort, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Peter de Montfort was the first person to have presided over the English Parliament as a prolocutor, an office now known as Speaker of the House of Commons? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Peter de Montfort. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 08:03, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Crabbe (died 1352)

On 30 October 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Crabbe (died 1352), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that John Crabbe defended Berwick Castle for the Scots against the English in 1318, but assisted the English when they again besieged Berwick in 1333? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Crabbe (died 1352). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Elizabeth de Vere

Nina, as you know, there are no extant plays by De Vere. He is notable as a courtier and poet. He is not notable as a playwright. We only characterise people by what makes them notable, not by everything they ever did. We don't say "Heather Mills was married to musician and painter Paul McCartney", even though it's true that McCartney is also a painter. Likewise we wouldn't say that Elizabeth de Vere was married to "courtier and playwright" William Stanley, Earl of Derby, even though the evidence that he wrote plays is just about as strong as the evidence that de Vere wrote plays. Paul B (talk) 17:03, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Paul, Puttenham and Meres are unquestionably RS, and if this isolated edit to the article is any indication, you appear to be searching for this sort of thing in order to delete it, which suggests POV-pushing on your part. I don't wish to engage in a lengthy discussion, so why don't we leave it at that? NinaGreen (talk) 17:09, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Nina, this reply is outrageous. You have not even, apparently, understood the point I made, least of all responded to it. Meres and Puttenham are absolutely not RS. Try reading WP:RS to get a basic understanding. But that's utterly beside the point, since the issue concerns notability for characterisation of a person, as my examples made 100% clear. We do not describe Paul McCartney as "the musician and painter" even if there are 1000 RS sources saying that he's a painter (and there are certainly plenty). And please do not make baseless and frankly false allegations. Paul B (talk) 17:24, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Paul, if he hadn't been 'noted' as a playwright in his day, Puttenham and Meres wouldn't have 'noted' him for it. As I said, I don't wish to discuss this further with you. You're clearly pushing a POV. NinaGreen (talk) 17:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You last sentence is a bit rich given your history. I am following policy, and your argument is nonsensical. Elvis Presley was in the army, but we don't describe him as a "singer and soldier". 'Noted' as you are using the term here means "mentioned", which is quite different from "notable". He is not notable as a playwright. He has never been notable as a playwright. He is briefly mentioned as such, just as he is mentioned for many other things. Derby almost certainly wrote plays. We don't add "playwright" every time he is mentioned. Paul B (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Nina, just observing from the side it looks to me that the issue at hand is the notability (or not) of De Vere as a playwright. Obviously, given all the myriad and complicated issues surrounding the SAQ question, this is bound to be a big contention point for the mainstream/"establishment" supporters here. As a matter of temporary tactics I would suggest to you 2 courses of action:

1. Defer to Paul on this question now, removing the contentious title/description as he is requesting.

2. Prepare for the long run a detailed document that would support the inclusion of the contentious title/description ("a notable playwright on his own") in the De Vere article. With such a document ready to pass muster in all the WP boards into which it would probably be submitted, either you, or if not, some other editor representing you, could then start the long fight to possibly include such a new section in the De Vere article/page itself. Even if such a document is very good and compliant with all WP policies, it may still be a long battle of years just to include such a new section in the main De Vere page/article. This is just a tactical suggestion for your consideration, in order to avoid immediate battles while you are still technically banned from the subject broadly considered. Regards, warshy 18:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Warshy. Paul shouldn't have opened this discussion, with his usual endless and pointless digressions on Paul McCartney and Elvis Presley and the like, on my Talk page in the first place. If Paul had anything to say, he should have said it on the Talk page of the article on which he made the edit, as he well knows. NinaGreen (talk) 19:25, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Nina. I believe you may be correct in this small procedural point. I have now tuned in there, which I was not, expecting the discussion to maybe continue there, not here, at least for a little while, perhaps along the courses of action I suggested above. In any case, the larger point he is raising is bound to be very contentious on the long run, in my view. Good luck on your continued, difficult endeavor to change long and deeply rooted historical perceptions of some key players in Elizabethan culture, one little element at a time... warshy 19:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

One more quick note. If I understand the history of the editing there correctly, he edited it a while ago, and you have not reverted him since. So I really don't understand the reason for this to be brought up here today in the manner that it was. Alas, these things do happen here on WP, and one needs a lot of patience, I guess... warshy 19:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I forgotten that you seem to find the concept of an analogy difficult to understand. I admit that I find this very bizarre, making it difficult for me to work out how best to communicate what seems to me to be a very simple point. I suspect that warshy can perfectly well understand the point of the comparisons with McCartney and Presley, even if he doesn't agree with my argument. They are examples to illustrate how we describe people. Misplaced Pages's policy pages are filled with similar such examples. Paul B (talk) 20:44, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Paul, I'm going to ask you politely, one more time, to stop posting this irrelevant material on my Talk page. As you well know, the appropriate place for any comment about your edit is on the Talk page of the article on which you made the edit. NinaGreen (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Nina, it is perfectly appropriate to discuss as matter such as this on an editor's talk page. It is done all the time, quite properly. I thought it more appropriate here than there because this is not in any meaningful sense about Elizabeth de Vere, the subject of the article. And please do not say things that are clearly false. You never "asked me to to stop posting this irrelevant material on my Talk page". Read your own words. All you said was "I don't wish to discuss this further with you". Well, your wishes are neither here nor there, and the material is of obvious relevance to the matter at issue. However, if you want to transfer the debate to the talk page of the Elizabeth de Vere article, that's fine by me. Copy the discussion over. Paul B (talk) 20:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't intend to copy your irrelevant digressions here to the Talk page of the article in question, nor should you. If you have a point to make about your edit, make it on the Talk page of the article on which you made the edit so that any Misplaced Pages editor who chooses to can discuss it, as per the usual Misplaced Pages practice. As you well know, you should have done that in the first place since your edit was clearly, in your mind, a controversial one. NinaGreen (talk) 21:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The relevance is obvious. I see many people on this talk page have asked you questions about edits to articles. I see nowhere any demand that they should have raised on the article page and not here. Your request seems unique to my query, and thus indicates a pure and simple double-standard. I will copy the query over the article, even though the issue is not specific to it and your behaviour here shows, to my mind, a refusal to participate in good faith engagement by inventing a series of ad hoc deflections. Paul B (talk) 22:21, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Excuse me once again. This issue should be closed here, since Nina has already said very clearly above "Paul shouldn't have opened this discussion ... on my Talk page in the first place." I believe she simply does not appreciate engaging with you here, and I can definitely sympathize with her feelings on this matter. You should respect her feelings and specific multiple requests in this regard too.

However, to state here that "I forgotten that you seem to find the concept of an analogy difficult to understand" is a clear insult to any person's intelligence, let alone an accomplished scholar of the caliber of Nina Green. It should be completely stricken from the record by you forthwith.

As for copying the material over, she also asked you to not do it, and I hope you don't. You are just going to compound the insult and affront already committed. If you want to make your point of view explicit there, once the insult is stricken above, you can just state it there once again. If you did that clearly and succintly, I believe there would be no need for Nina even to respond to it, since your edit was done a while ago and it was never changed. Thank you for understanding. warshy 22:34, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The reference to analogies has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with previous discussions in which similar illustrations were greeted in a similar way. I do genuinely find it difficult to understand these responses. As you know, I did, very clearly and very succinctly, state the problem. As for copying the material over, yes, that was my fault. I misread what she wrote by reading it too quickly. I thought she'd advised copying it over. Paul B (talk) 22:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Quite enough said on this issue here already. I would strike the insulting comment if I were you, but you of course are free to do as you wish. As for your initial, larger scholarly point, I am sure it will be duly refuted and clarified by sheer scholarship in due course, as I suggested to Nina above. Just that certainty, I hope, would be good enough for her to bypass your personal insults above, and let the issue rest for now. In the future, I also hope, you will refrain from coming and confronting and insulting her in her own talk page. I would hope you never come to mine either. Sincerely, warshy 22:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Alice of Hainault

On 4 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Alice of Hainault, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in 1310, the pirate John Crabbe seized a ship carrying jewels, gold, silver, and other goods worth £2000 belonging to Alice of Hainault? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Alice of Hainault. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:29, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Bevis Bulmer

On 6 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Bevis Bulmer, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir Bevis Bulmer presented Queen Elizabeth I with a porringer of pure gold? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bevis Bulmer. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 17:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Christopher Schutz

On 7 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Christopher Schutz, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that a "great ruby stone" that Christopher Schutz wished to present to Queen Elizabeth I was never seen again after it came into the hands of Martin Frobisher? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Christopher Schutz. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 21:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Humfrey

On 9 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Humfrey, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that while he was Assay Master at the Royal Mint in 1568, William Humfrey was accused of robbing the Mint? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Humfrey. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 17:18, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Precious

biographies of English history
Thank you for quality articles such as Elizabeth de Vere, Countess of Oxford, Christopher Schutz and Burchard Kranich, and for contributing to article space alone, - you are an awesome Wikipedian!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:00, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! Coming from you, it's a real honour. NinaGreen (talk) 16:53, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Giovanni Battista Agnello

On 15 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Giovanni Battista Agnello, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Giovanni Battista Agnello was the first to declare that the ore brought back from Baffin Island by Martin Frobisher in 1576 was gold-bearing? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Giovanni Battista Agnello. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Jean de Ferrieres

On 18 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Jean de Ferrieres, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that although Jean de Ferrieres inherited immense riches, he died a prisoner in a galley, unable to pay his ransom? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Jean de Ferrieres. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:03, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Rowland Haywood

Hi Nina, I've just been admiring your work on R.H. It has become a very informative article, thanks! I have just been fiddling rather less effectively with Sir Thomas Lodge. Are you able to pinpoint exactly where the funders specifically for the Hawkins slaving expeditions are named? Similar things are said of Lodge, but in trying to navigate the Hakluyt references for Lodge I came up with the Guinea expeditions which seem to have crossed paths with Hawkins in 1563/4 by accident (or was it 'by accident on purpose'?). I realise all these adventurers were closely associated and related. Any guidance gratefully accepted! thanks, Eebahgum (talk) 12:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi Eebahgum. I haven't researched Hawkins' slave-trading voyages beyond what I found for the Haywood article, but I see that Lodge is mentioned as an investor in Gonson's voyage on p. 110 of Andrews' Trade, Plunder and Settlement, and it seems his source was Williamson's biography of Sir John Hawkins, so perhaps the investors in Hawkins' slave-trading voyages are named in Williamson's biography. But perhaps you've already looked into Williamson's biography? NinaGreen (talk) 20:48, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thankyou, that's a very helpful reference and I have incorporated it. I'll look for Williamson. Thanks also for all your great work here and elsewhere. So much food for thought. Eebahgum (talk) 23:19, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind comments. I've created an article on the printer Edward White, and added a link to it in the article on Sir Thomas Lodge. I've also added some material to the article on his son, Thomas Lodge, which you can incorporate into the article on Sir Thomas, if you like. I thought I'd leave that up to you as you're doing some major editing on the article on Sir Thomas, and I don't want to get in the way. NinaGreen (talk) 20:14, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Great stuff on E White and Thos junior too. That Bernard reference for the Littleton descent is sensational. Perhaps something of that can be incorporated into Sir T. Kind of you to defer, but no need really: I probably won't do much more with Sir Thos himself. My interests are, shall we say, cousinly, and I am reserving them from here for the time being as I suspect they will attract an edit war, an activity which I deeply wish to avoid! least said soonest mended. Eebahgum (talk) 15:38, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Burchard Kranich

On 21 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Burchard Kranich, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Burchard Kranich allegedly cured Queen Elizabeth I of smallpox? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Burchard Kranich. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:05, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Edward White (printer)

On 23 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Edward White (printer), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Edward White printed or sold works by Kyd, Greene, Munday, Marlowe and Shakespeare? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Edward White (printer). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Rose Lok

On 25 November 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Rose Lok, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Tudor ship Mary Rose was named after Rose Lok and her sister-in-law, Mary Lok? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Rose Lok. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:03, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Lok

On 3 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Lok, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in 1555 John Lok brought five Africans from present-day Ghana to England to learn English and act as interpreters on future trading voyages to Guinea? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Lok. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 00:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Robert Fabyan

On 3 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robert Fabyan, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the chronicler Robert Fabyan recorded the arrival in England in 1502 of three men from Newfoundland? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Robert Fabyan. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 08:02, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

St Spyridon Church

Hi Nina. Sorry about that but I had an edit conflict with you as soon as I changed the hook to a new one. Do you mind checking the new hook and let me know if you approve of it? Many thanks. Δρ.Κ.  00:41, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi again, sorry again. Just done the QPQ. Whenever you have the time you can have a look. Thank you very much for your time. Δρ.Κ.  04:59, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for William Lok

On 5 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article William Lok, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Sir William Lok brought French translations of the Gospels and Epistles from the continent for Anne Boleyn? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/William Lok. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of John Brayne

Hello! Your submission of John Brayne at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:58, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for John Brayne

On 6 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article John Brayne, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that in 1567 John Brayne built the Red Lion playhouse, the first professional playhouse in the British Isles specifically built for that purpose since Roman times? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Brayne. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Anthony Lee

On 6 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Anthony Lee, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the favours done by Sir Anthony Lee for the poet Thomas Wyatt were so many that it made Wyatt "weary to think on them"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Anthony Lee. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 16:03, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Vardges Sureniants

Hi NinaGreen,

Can you check out the Vardges Sureniants' DYK nom. page please. Thanks! Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:14, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Hello NinaGreen, if I could please have you at the Vardges Sureniants DYK again if it's possible. I did a last

minute change in the hook and picture. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:58, 7 December 2013 (UTC)

Please check out the nomination and let me know what you think. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:16, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Bridget Chaworth

Hello! Your submission of Bridget Chaworth at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 01:01, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Cromwell Lee

On 15 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Cromwell Lee, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Cromwell Lee compiled an Italian-English dictionary which, although unfinished, is said to have been "as big as a church bible"? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Cromwell Lee. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 04:02, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Bridget Chaworth

On 19 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Bridget Chaworth, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the inscription on Bridget Chaworth's monument commemorates her 25 years of service as a gentlewoman of the Privy Chamber to Elizabeth I and 14 years of service to Anne of Denmark? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Bridget Chaworth. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 14:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Incomplete DYK nomination

Hello! Your submission of Template:Did you know nominations/Anthony Carelton at the Did You Know nominations page is not complete; see step 3 of the nomination procedure. If you do not want to continue with the nomination, tag the nomination page with {{db-g7}}, or ask a DYK admin. Thank you. DYKHousekeepingBot (talk) 19:44, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Elizabeth Hussey

Hello! Your submission of Elizabeth Hussey at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Yoninah (talk) 19:43, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

I checked the DYK page just now, and there are no comments under my nomination of Elizabeth Hussey. NinaGreen (talk) 19:46, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Indefinite sentences in Western legal systems

Here you wrote: "no justice system in the Western world, whether criminal, civil, or administrative, uses indefinite sentences or sentences 'broadly construed'."

I'm not sure what you mean by "broadly construed" but there are several situations in Western cultures where sentences are "indefinite."

• In most some US states, the sentencing judge will sentence convicted criminals to a sentence of "25 to life" or "5 to 10" or whatever the law says, with the discretion of when you actually get out being left up to the parole board. This is kind of like "indefinite" except there is a lower bound and an upper bound on it.

• In many US states, low- and moderate-level felony crimes tried in juvenile courts result in "indeterminate sentences" which basically means you could ask for a "release hearing" almost immediately and you could wind up being released very quickly if you were obviously rehabilitated, but you could also be kept locked up until some fixed age (it varies by state, but it's usually in the late teens to early 20s) if you are never considered "rehabilitated." In theory, this could lead to seemingly-bizarre situations like a 12 year old committing a crime which an adult would get 2 years in prison staying locked up until he is 21 because he won't change his defiant attitude, or a 12 year old remorseful murderer getting released after a few weeks when it's obvious the remorse is genuine and his risk of committing a new serious crime is actually lower than that of the average teenager who has never committed any serious crimes.

• In England, some sex offenders are sentenced to "indefinite confinement" with a minimum sentence of a few years and periodic evaluations to determine if the person should be released after that. This is a concession to the reality that some sex offenders are pathologically illness that involve either a compulsion or willingness to rape or molest others that is part of the person's baseline personality and is not likely to change over his lifetime, and the reality that in Britain at least, voting for such sentencing options helps get politicians re-elected.

• It's not unheard of for businesses to "ban you for life" from their property if you vandalize it or otherwise disrupt their business in a major way. In most US states, violating such a ban, even decades later, constitutes criminal trespass, which is a very minor crime but you can be arrested for it if the property owner complains and can prove that you had been notified of the ban.

Just some food for thought. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 22:13, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Davidwr. Thanks for your comments. I agree with your last point, and my own comment included permanent bans, which in certain circumstances might be entirely justified for Misplaced Pages. It's the indefinite bans which cause a lot of problems, both for the banned editor, who usually has little idea of the technical aspects of launching an appeal or when the arbitrators might be disposed to grant it, and for the arbitrators, who wouldn't have to waste their time hearing appeals from editors in most cases if bans had definite time limits. Most banned editors would simply sit them out, but with an indefinite ban, there has to be an appeal sometime unless the editor just leaves Misplaced Pages forever. The thrust of my comments was to try to make things simpler, more efficient, and fairer for everyone, and I think my suggestions would do that, if implemented. NinaGreen (talk) 00:31, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for George Carleton (died 1590)

On 31 December 2013, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article George Carleton (died 1590), which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that George Carleton has been suggested as the real author behind the pseudonym Martin Marprelate? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/George Carleton (died 1590). You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:02, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Elizabeth Hussey

On 1 January 2014, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Elizabeth Hussey, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Elizabeth Hussey allowed the first of the tracts by the anonymous satirist Martin Marprelate to be printed on a secret press at her home at East Molesey in October 1588? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Elizabeth Hussey. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 00:03, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Hercules Underhill

On 3 January 2014, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Hercules Underhill, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Anthony Carleton's son-in-law Hercules Underhill confirmed the sale of New Place to Shakespeare? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Hercules Underhill. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:02, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Anthony Carleton

On 3 January 2014, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Anthony Carleton, which you created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that Anthony Carleton's son-in-law Hercules Underhill confirmed the sale of New Place to Shakespeare? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Anthony Carleton. You are welcome to check how many hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check) and it will be added to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

The DYK project (nominate) 08:03, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:EB1911

If you come across an article like Christopher Hatton that includes the template {{EB1911}} most of the text is almost certainly copied from EB1911.

If the text is not available on Wikisource, you will be able to track it down through the versions available in the section Free, public-domain sources for 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica text in the Encyclopaedia Britannica Eleventh Edition.

To meet the requirements of the plagiarism guideline, articles that include text from public domain must contain suitable attribution (like {{EB1911}} linking to the correct article) but also inline citations.

In the case of the Christopher Hatton article, links to the EB1911 article would have answered most of the {{citation needed}} templates you added, and in many cases would have alleviated the need to add other sources to verify facts.

The reason why many of the articles like Christopher Hatton do not carry adequate inline citations is because the text was copied into a Misplaced Pages article long before (in this case in 2002) there were guidelines on how to support content with citations. That developed as a response by the Wikipepdia community to improve the quality of the content of articles in about 2006 because the press was having fun finding unsourced articles and showing how unreliable Misplaced Pages was.

So in future if you come across an article with {{1911}} (which redirects to {{EB1911}}) or {[tl|EB1911}} a way to quickly improve reliability of the content is fill in the "|wstitle=wikisource" parameter or the parameters "|title=other source url=..." and add inline citations to the template (the parameter ref=harv is set by default so (Chisholm 1911) usually works).

•  This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Chisholm, Hugh, ed. (1911). "Hatton, Sir Christopher". Encyclopædia Britannica. Vol. 12 (11th ed.). Cambridge University Press. pp. 63–64.

-- PBS (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica is more than a century old, and the biographies in it have in many cases being significantly updated by more recent research. If other editors wish to locate a 1911 EB article (such as the one which you say may have been the source for the entire Christopher Hatton article on Misplaced Pages), and provide inline citations from it, they're certainly free to do so. I feel my time is better spent in finding and citing more up-to-date sources where possible. NinaGreen (talk) 21:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Your Vandalism Comments

First, I see that you asked me at the Help Desk to stop attributing comments to you that you had not made. You made a similar comment to another poster in your comments on the 2013 review of discretionary sanctions. I understand that no one likes to be misquoted, but if you twice think that your comments were misinterpreted, please consider that maybe your comments were not entirely clear, and that they may have permitted two interpretations. On re-reading your comments about numeric vandalism, and my attribution that you thought that only a revert was needed, and that admins should handle the remaining details, I don't think that I misread your comments. I think that my interpretation was a valid interpretation of your comments, even if not what you meant. I am aware that discussions of complex topics such as numeric vandalism or discretionary sanctions are not always as clear as they could be. If you ask other posters repeatedly not to attribute comments to you that you did not make, maybe you should be patient with their efforts to understand your comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Second, I am familiar with ClueBot, as many of us are. It is an excellent vandalism-fighter. However, it is a bot, and doesn't have as much intelligence or the same kind of intelligence as a human. It uses a heuristic algorithm to detect edits that are likely to be vandalism. It is very good, although it has occasional false positives. I don't know the inner details of how it works, but I think that it mostly detects patterns that are either not good English, look like graffiti, or look like typical vandalism. I don't think that there is any practical way that it could be engineered to detect numeric vandalism, or, for that matter, the replacement of true statements by comparably worded false statements. I don't think that it would know the difference between: "Henry VII killed Richard III in 1485 at Bosworth Field", and "Richard III defeated Henry Tudor in 1486 in Kensington." I certainly don't know how it would recognize the changing of a 40% vote to a 60% vote, typical of what numeric vandals do. What could possibly done would be a different approach, which would be to flag or revert edits without edit summaries by unregistered editors. (That would offend those who think that unregistered editors should have all of the usual rights of registered editors, but reasonable Wikipedians differ on what those rights should be.) However, in that case, the numeric vandal would begin using an edit summary, such as "correction". I don't think that a bot can reasonably be used to detect and correct numeric vandalism. Only human editors with watch lists can do that. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

My point was (and is) that administrators are there to warn the vandal once an editor has reverted an edit by a vandal using only an IP address and advised WP:AIV of the vandalism. Warning the vandal is an administrator's job, not an editor's job. Otherwise, what are the 1400 administrators there for? However when one goes to WP:AIV one finds that advice concerning a vandal is rejected unless the editor had repeatedly warned the vandal. In other words, administrators have fobbed their job off onto editors.

As to your comment that a bot could not be perfected which would detect a date change and revert it, given the brilliance of the technologically inclined editors on Misplaced Pages, I'm certain it could be done. You seem to know your way around Misplaced Pages. Why don't you suggest it to someone who could do something about it? NinaGreen (talk) 19:28, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, my contention is that the administrators are there to block the vandal, not to warn the vandal. You and I can reasonably disagree. If you think that the policy should be changed (because what I describe is the policy), you could propose that at Misplaced Pages talk: Vandalism. I am very skeptical of having a bot detect numeric vandalism. I think that it would be even more difficult than for a human to detect numeric vandalism. The only way that a human would know that the edit mentioned above, that changes the course of English history, was vandalism is that it is well-known via reliable sources to students of English history, and the altered statement "looks wrong" because it goes against history, that is, against reliable sources. However, it might be an interesting idea to throw out at Village pump (technical). Someone who knows more about bots than I do could probably explain why it isn't feasible for a bot to detect numeric vandalism, just as it isn't easy for humans, except knowledgeable humans, to detect numeric vandalism. It only "looks wrong" if you know that it is wrong. (On the other hand, graffiti vandalism "looks wrong" both to a human and to ClueBot.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:03, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional comments, Robert McClenon. I think it can be done. See my comments on the ClueBot NG page . NinaGreen (talk) 02:13, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Groatsworth

I have raised the issue at the Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents board. Paul B (talk) 21:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

And I have reported your violation of your topic ban it Arbcom. Edward321 (talk) 04:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week

Sorry Nina, I've unblocked your account. One of the times I was looking at was UTC and the other was in local time which made it look like you were editing logged out during the block. I've removed the block and the entry on the case page. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:30, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Nina. I pointed out on Sandstein's page just half an hour after Robert McClenon posted there that there was no block evasion, and also that I wasn't able to engage with the sock puppet investigation because of time constraints. But it looks like Robert, who I hoped would fix his error, was no longer on line, nor Sandstein, and then the SPI was closed very quickly, before I was awake. I'm sorry it went like that, but I did what I could. Callanecc, have you considered adding a note to the SPI archive? Bishonen | talk 13:01, 27 January 2014 (UTC).

Thanks, Bishonen. Much appreciated. Incidentally, the reason I didn't log in was because at WP:AIV administrator BrownHairedGirl stated that she had already blocked me, so I assumed I wouldn't be able to log in. NinaGreen (talk) 19:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Nina: You can always log in. If a user logs in and they are blocked, they will not be able to edit pages (and I believe they see an explanation if they try). If it is a normal block, the user will be able to edit their own talk page and is able to use the "email this user" feature (sometimes there is a lot of disruption and those abilities are removed). I have removed the stale block notifications. Do you want to archive this page? It's easy, but if you would prefer, I would be happy to archive everything from the top down to and including this section. You don't have to archive—that's just in case you wanted. Johnuniq (talk) 23:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the information about logging in, and for removing the stale block notifications. I think I'll forego archiving for a bit. I like looking at the DYK notifications. :-) NinaGreen (talk) 18:42, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Administrators lack the subject matter expertise to interpret 'broadly construed'

I've added the two paragraphs below to the page on which the procedures for administration of Discretionary Sanctions are being reviewed because the example demonstrates why use of the phrase 'broadly construed' is a bad idea for Misplaced Pages, and should be eliminated. This is a discussion every editor on Misplaced Pages should take an interest in because sooner or later it's bound to affect a very large number of editors in some way or other. NinaGreen (talk) 19:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm starting a new section to highlight the problem entailed with the phrase 'broadly construed', which is routinely used in the imposition of 'Discretionary sanctions'. I've just been blocked for 48 hours for an alleged violation of a topic ban which used the same phrase 'broadly construed', so the example is instructive. My edit was made last August, and the issue arose because another editor ran across it a few days ago and deleted both the factual statement and the unquestionably reliable source which supported it. During an extensive discussion on the article Talk page, I added two more unquestionably reliable sources to the article in support of the factual statement, and a further eminently RS to the Talk page. The other editor added nothing to the article, and when he could not prevail on the facts, complained to WP:AIV that I had allegedly violated a topic ban. There was a lengthy discussion there in which I explained that the article itself was not covered by the topic ban, nor was my edit. The matter was then whisked off to WP:AE at ], and I was rapidly blocked for 48 hours. About 10 administrators rushed into the fray on the two last-mentioned forums, some of whom were baying for lengthy blocks. The 'evidence' put forward was framed in this way: 'Ninagreen adds info claiming the pamphlet might be referring to someone other than Shakespeare.' This is completely inaccurate. My edit, made last August, clearly refers to the relationship between a line in Greene's Groatsworth of Wit and an anonymous play published in 1595, The True Tragedy of Richard, Duke of York, as I explained at WP:AIV. My edit has nothing to do with Shakespeare, either per se or tangentially, and it most certainly had absolutely nothing to do with 'the pamphlet might be referring to someone other than Shakespeare'. However the administrators involved clearly lacked the subject matter expertise to know the difference, and I was thus blocked under a topic ban 'broadly misconstrued'. It was sufficient that the editor had alleged to WP:AIV that I had violated the topic ban; that was enough for about 10 administrators to conclude that I must have done so because they have no expertise in the subject matter involved, and simply can't tell the difference.

I'm bringing it up here because, as I've mentioned here before, the use of the phrase 'broadly construed' in DS is a bad idea, both in terms of Misplaced Pages's public image, and in terms of the fact that administrators who are not involved in a particular subject area lack the expertise to determine whether an edit actually violates a topic ban 'broadly construed', which results in the injustices which have been complained of repeatedly by other editors elsewhere in this discussion. Misplaced Pages needs to get rid entirely of the phrase 'broadly construed' because it can't be administered fairly by administrators who lack expertise in the subject area.

Hi, since you started posting at the DS review I have been pondering how it is that you have had such DS troubles compared to myself. I mean, for over two years nearly all of my editing has been on articles subject to DS and I haven't had such troubles. Today I had a little light go off. FYI, One way you could make a much bigger splash in the DS review with your complaint and proposal for arb & admin reviews is to first demonstrate to the community an effort to comply with this bit of wisdom, and the best way to do that is to submit yourself to review, by way of a self-submission to WP:RFC/U. If you pass that with flying colors, then you'll be able to point to that as evidence of how badly DS treated you. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Goodness, NewsAndEventsGuy, how did you come to the conclusion that I've personally had 'DS troubles'? I've had no 'DS troubles' at all. I've been posting about DS at the review page because DS are a terrible idea, and the process needs to be reformed. NinaGreen (talk) 17:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh I don't know, couldn't have been anything you said, that's for sure. On a related point.... NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

You're confused, NewsAndEventsGuy. Reread my statement above. Let's drop the discussion. NinaGreen (talk) 20:11, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Issue with DYK nomination for Fulke Underhill

DYK nomination of Fulke Underhill

Hello! Your submission of Fulke Underhill at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Hack (talk) 03:08, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

February 2014

Hello. It is not appropriate to go around spamming the same 5k of text to multiple users talk pages. This is disruptive. A bunch of experienced, well-intentioned editors have been giving you good advice about how to participate in Misplaced Pages constructively. Not only have you ignored them, you seem to be going in the opposite direction, just to make a point.

Your account is blocked until you and the editors you've been mis-interacting with come to an agreement about how you will participate constructively rather than disruptively. Please take a break, regain perspective, then make a request to be unblocked. It will help to recognize any past errors and state how you would go about things differently in the future. Jehochman 18:58, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you should have known this would happen. This is how Misplaced Pages deals withi critics. Misplaced Pages admins don't like being criticized so they block you. Although it seems pretty much a violation of policy to go straight to indefinate but admins here can do pretty much whatever they want soooo. Good luck Nina. P.s. You may as well stop editing now, once a block has been associated to an account on here you will be a target forever and it will be used as a justification for further blocks. Dontbeacritic (talk) 19:30, 12 February 2014 (UTC)