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• Kumioko (renamed) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Kumi-Taskbot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• ShmuckatellieJoe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
  • CheckUser talk, where the first "Kumioko" was changed to "Kumioko (renamed)"
• Kumioko (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• ThePhoenixReborn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• KumiokoCleanStart (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• BannedEditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.0.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.0.42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.0.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.0.45 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.8.59 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.8.58 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 138.162.8.57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 108.28.162.125 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 108.45.104.69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 108.45.104.158 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 71.163.243.232 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• 67.237.217.106 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

• So, some time ago Kumioko deliberately got himself blocked. He later returned with the poorly named KumiokoCleanStart, which was obviously completely non-compliant with WP:CLEANSTART. An argument could be made that the creation of that account was block evasion, but that ship sailed all long time ago. So, late last month he abandoned the clean start account and began editing as an unregistered user. At least two of this IPs have been blocked. Geni (talk · contribs) blocked some of them with the block summary "I don't know who you are and I don't care who you are but you aren't a new user which means ever you are trying to play wikipolitics while avoiding having such activities connected to your main account or..." I undid one of those blocks and attempted to explain that it was actually quite easy to see who it was and the account was no longer active, which led to this exchange on my talk page. That IP has now been blocked again by Legoktm (talk · contribs) with the rationale "Clearly not here to contribute to building the encyclopedia: Trolling, bad faith commenting and other disruption." Leaky caldron (talk · contribs) also attempted to force them to keep old warnings on one of their talk pages. He became very upset when I spoke to him about this to remind him that any user who is not banned is allowed to remove almost anything they like from their talk page. He also ordered me not to post there again, so hopefully the ping here is adequate notification of this discussion.

I am not here to argue that there is nothing wrong with what this user has been doing. He acted pretty much the same before, and I and many others have told him previously that we found his comments obnoxiously unhelpful. And that is actually exactly my point. What troubles me is that he is being treated as though he were a banned "unperson" who is no longer allowed to speak his mind because he has chosen to no longer use an account. He isn't acting any differently except for the use of IPs instead of an account. The message that seems to be being sent here is that he can either behave that way or edit as an IP, but not both. I don't believe that is or has ever been how things are done here and would ask for community input into this situation. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• Every noticeboard has examples showing that Misplaced Pages's rules do not cover every situation. Something went wrong for Kumioko a long time ago, and the project would greatly benefit from a six-month break, and a debate about the means seems totally unwarranted. Johnuniq (talk) 03:08, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The blocks are all for one or two weeks, not six months. I have no objection to this turning into a ban discussion if that is what the community wants, but we shouldn't treat any user, no matter how obnoxious, like they are banned just because they have chosen to use IPs to edit. That actually is kind of important. It is also worth noting that some of these IPs are on the "sensitive" list. Admins who block such IPs are asked to inform the WMF communications committee] but I see no evidence this was done either. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, an argument could be made that the "abandoning account then editing as an IP" is a form of avoiding scrutiny. While when asked, he admits to being Kumioko, otherwise the connection is not disclosed, and it seems as if it's obviously an attempt to "avoid the baggage" of having an account. Now whether that rises to "sock and block" level, I'm not sure. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there are three accounts involved: his original username was "Kumioko", but it got moved to User:Kumioko (renamed). Clearly not socking as far as the accounts are concerned. However, the use of IPs without explaining who he is, and bringing up or taking sides in disputes while logged out, is not in line with WP:SOCK. I quote from the end of the introduction: Editors who use unlinked alternative accounts, or who edit as an IP address editor separate from their account, should carefully avoid any crossover on articles or topics. Some days ago, while with IP address 108.48.100.44, he raised an issue at WP:ANI regarding actions I'd taken, and by editing logged out, he was definitely avoiding scrutiny — I thought it was someone with no past history of raising grievances against me or against other administrators, and thus I addressed him and his words as a newbie, not as someone with a history of jumping into disputes. Note that the dispute eventually was sent to ANI by the editor on the other side of the dispute (WilliamJE); I'm not saying "he got me in trouble, and I'd have been fine otherwise". Rather, the situation was complicated because people didn't know who he was — someone ended up creating Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/WilliamJE, thinking that the IP was William. Regardless of his actions on other issues, William didn't deserve to be seen as a sockmaster, and this wouldn't have arisen if Kumioko had revealed who he was instead of avoiding scrutiny by editing logged out. Nyttend (talk) 04:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• Hi. I don't care whether Kumioko edits via an account or as an IP. It was his comments on WT:RFA that I blocked him for, and had be been logged in, I would have blocked his account for a week (well, length might have been different). He then proceeded to blatantly evade his block on my talk page, so I blocked the IP for block evasion (31 hours). And for the record, I did notify ComCom when I saw the popup in blocking the second IP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legoktm (talk • contribs) 04:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Well that's good, I must have looked in the wrong place for the notification. My problem is you say you would have blocked him for his remarks at the RFA talk page, but I don't see anything there that is any more extreme than the kind of comments he has literally been making for several years. Perhaps if you could more specifically identify which passages of those remarks warranted blocking? Beeblebrox (talk) 04:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Just a quick note, meta:Communications committee says that it's fine to email them, wmfcc-lmail.wikimedia.org. Nyttend (talk) 05:00, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

@Beeblebrox:. First of all, I reinstated the blocked IPs Talk Page warnings under the terms of WP:BE - "Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a block, without giving any further reason." As an unregistered IP the page is not exclusively "his" and my purpose was to preserve the talk page's multiple warnings so as to facilitate those dealing with vandalism to quickly assess the extent of previous disruptive editing without having to reach into history. He was blocked at the time and I acted. You can apologise at any time for your inappropriate actions. Better still, just reinstate the talk page warnings per WP:BE. As for your unblocking a disruptive editor without first discussing it with the blocking Admin., I thought there were rules about that but I see that you are a member of AC so maybe you feel as though you can do as you like.

The bottom line is that the editor behind these IPs (there are at least 4 others, BTW) has been WP:NOTHERE since their various RfA applications were comprehensively rejected by the community. They have become increasingly negative, disruptive and self-indulgent. They are quite plainly in contempt of the project and under the following specific headings:

General pattern of disruptive behavior A long term history of disruptive behavior with little or no sign of other intentions.

Treating editing as a battleground A user whose anger causes them to obsess may find the fight has become their focus, not encyclopedia writing.

Dishonest and gaming behaviors Socking. Evading WP:RFC/U as there is no registered account

Little or no interest in working collaboratively A complete lack of interest in good editing conduct practices. Little or no interest in working collaboratively. :Extreme lack of interest in working constructively and in a cooperative manner with the community where the views of other users may differ; extreme lack of interest in heeding others' legitimate concerns; interest in furthering rather than mitigating conflict.

Major or irreconcilable conflict of attitude or intention There is a level of divergence of fundamental attitudes, whether in editing or to the project as a whole, at which this may not be reasonable to expect.

Inconsistent long-term agenda Seems to want editing rights only in order to legitimize a soapbox or other personal stance, primarily relating to the lack of trust in Admins and bitterness at his own rejection.

Having a long-term or "extreme" history that suggests a marked lack of value for the project's actual aims and methods Repeated chances and warnings, all of which have been flouted.

Finally Beeblebrox, your opening statement of facts is seriously flawed. Let's not obscure the actual facts for the sake of lazy research on your part. The editor did not, as you say, "late last month he abandoned the clean start account and began editing as an unregistered user." He has been using his registered account together with various IPs interchangeably and frequently within the same discussion sections for many months. It is relevant to the overall picture of this user's behaviour and why the blocks must be supported and why you were entirely wrong to peremptorily overturn the original block. TBH, there might need to be a discussion about your Admin. actions. Leaky Caldron 10:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

First I wanted to let you know you missed an IP on the list above, this one is for my home. Second, I am fairly annoyed and unimpressed that no one bothered to leave a notice on my old talk page nor the IP I added above eventhough you all knew what it was. I remember when it was considered inappropriate to open an ANI case on someone and not notify them, but then, this is the new Misplaced Pages where the rules don't apply to admins...kinda like I've been saying for a while now. I shouldn't have had to find out about it on Lego's talk page (that's why I left the note more than anything, to let you know I saw the message). Its pretty obvious the intent was so that I wouldn't be notified and you all would be able to have your little witch hunt and be able to twist the situation however you want before I had a chance to comment.

I also wanted to point something else out. That is that much of what Leaky and Nyttend says about is complete bullshit (yes I am you both liers) I did, in fact create a new account more in the spirit of Cleanstart. It was User:ThePhoenixReborn but some quickly said I was socking and it became clear to me that cleanstart is pretty much a bullshit policy that's impossible to follow, so I created the KCS username to poke some fun at said BS policy since I was not going to be allowed to create a new one. Thanks to the cleanstart policy I have a "history" of socking. So my recommendation is to shit can that policy since its only going to be used as an excuse to ban editors from the site. That's why I cahnged it to KumiokoCleanStart. If I had my way, it would still be changed and frankly I knew that dumping my old account was going to give you all an excuse to accuse me of socking again because I am not using an account. Same thing with the comments about me having a conflicting attitude and having an irreconcilable conflict. Yeah I do, with admins and editors who blatantly violate the rules. Especially admins who often times are allowed to violate the rules or told they don't even apply (like WP:Involved). So the comments from Leaky and Nyttend are really off the mark and are just their way of misinterpreting my intentions (that's called failing to AGF) with the intent to try and get me blocked. Nyttend has a history of targetting editors he doesn't like and manipulating what they said and policy to justify it, so that really doesn't surprise me.

I also think its kinda funny how its apparently ok to call an editors a troll above and that not be considered a personal attack. I'm sure no one will block Leaky for that like they blocked me and they'll probably find a reason to block me for the same or lessor comments just like Lego did before. In fact he's probably going to block this IP as block evasion just because I responded to this AN discussion about me. So cheers to all and happy witch hunting. If you all spent half as much time trying to deal with the abusive admins on this site, and less time dealing with me asking you to do so, this site would be a pretty good place to edit again....like it used to be when there was an environment of trust and AGF instead of assuming bad faith because you don't like the message. BTW, I have done more for this site than Nyttend, Lego and Leaky combined x2, so don't be assuming my intentions just because your abusive to other editors and I call you out on it. If you don't like being called abusive, then stop violating policy and being abusive. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 12:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, Leaky I'm going to call you a lier again here. Beeblebrox is correct, I locked my account January 27 as anyone can plainly see. So your the one that needs to do your research before accusing Beeblebrox of being lazy. Just because your looking for a reason to get me blocked, doesn't mean you can make one up out of thin air and then accuse another editor/admin of lazy research. I'm also not quite sure why someone didn't mention that sooner and why I had to do it. Geez people does policy and common courtesy not apply on this site at all anymore? 108.45.104.158 (talk) 12:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Leaky caldron's statement appears to be mostly accurate. You may have stopped using your account late last month, but Beeblebrox claimed you "began editing as an unregistered user" after you abandoned your 'cleanstart' account. If you have been editing with an IP for several months then you did not begin editing as an unregistered user at the time (you may have continued editing as an unregistered editor as you had evidentally been doing for several months). Perhaps Leaky caldron could have been clearer but if you read their statement careful, they did not actually dispute you may have stopped editing or otherwise abandoned your account late last month, so evidence that you did so is largely irrelevant. They only disputed when you started editing with an IP, specifically they made the claim you had been doing so concurrently with using your account (in the same discussions) for several months. Since you didn't dispute this I'm guessing it's accurate.

BTW, even if Leaky caldron had said something which was wrong, their message came about 1.5 hours before your reply. (In fact, it took me longer to point out your accusations appear to be misguided than it took for you to reply.) And at a time when, I know from experience, there's usually somewhat of a lull in activity on wikipedia (Americans are sleeping, Europeans are at work), particularly from admins and on noticeboards. And this is AN not ANI which tends to get less action. So your complaints about a lack of courtesy or people not pointing something out sooner are frankly just dumb, and suggest you have little idea how wikipedia works and unrealistic expectations of volunteers here (which is definitely not courteous).

Nil Einne (talk) 14:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I may be unrealistic but I fully understand how Misplaced Pages works, doesn't work and should work. I also agree that I sometimes didn't bother logging in to edit. That's part of why I finally stopped logging in at all. I believe Beeblebrox's comment was more that I abandoned my account and only use IP's now. I also want to add that I wasn't wheel warring, voting or doing vandalism from the IP's I was just commenting and generally people knew who I was. That is until the community decides to Ban me from the project rather than deal with the bigger and more difficult to fix problem of dealing with abusive admins and a culture that more and more disregards our own policies when it suits them as noted by your personal attacks of calling me dumb, something I was recently blocked for I might add. So just to let everyone know I am going out of town Tennessee this weekend so unless I login from my hotel room you all will be free to insult me, talk about how much of a troll and a vandal, trade personal attacks (and certainly no admin will block you from doing so). You can even block me if you want because I know some of you want too. I probably won't be able to respond or comment till Monday at the earliest. If you want to be useful or use your time more wisely I would suggest starting a review of the admin actions being performed by admins for the last 90 days, you'll see comments and actions that would appall you. But, I'm sure you have no interest in doing that, because the system has been made so that it is inherently difficult to get rid of an admin...an editor though is just a block away. Cheers. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 14:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Well you clearly don't understand much about wikipedia, what you've said has demonstrated that. Whatever Beeblebrox may have meant, Leaky caldron had quite a legitimate point that Beeblebrox's statement was quite misleading as implying you only started editing with IPs recently when you had been misusing them for a while. Which considering the core issues here, is important to the discussion. BTW I stopped reading after about your 4 or 5th sentence, not because your post is very long but because I found it incredibly boring (and this is from someone known for very long posts). But I will say whether or not we have a problem with abusive admins or whatever else you mentioned, people who behave like you have here and elsewere, are clearly the far bigger problem than whatever other nonsense you're talking about. It's unfortunate, to say the least, that you don't understand that. And I say this as someone who is not an admin and has never really been that interested in being one (I was asked a few times a while ago). Nil Einne (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• Anyone who follows Jimbo's talk page knows that I have been a severe critic of Kumioko. And truthfully, I believe you gave him exactly what he wanted. He abandoned being a productive editor a long time ago in favour of his little anti-admin crusade that crossed the border into outright zealotry. It was obvious from his comments (example; note edit summary) on Jimbo's talk page that he was outright trolling for a block. (I found it pretty hilarious that he expected I would play into his hands there.) Kumioko has a obvious martyr complex going and his WP:POINTy behaviour flows from that. Resolute 14:41, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of abusive admins. Hi Resolute. Your are a great writer Resolute but why don't you leave the admin stuff to people who are good at it and have the proper demeanor. Your just upset because I'm not afraid of you and your admin super powers and I won't put up with your abusive BS anymore. I might act like a jerk sometimes but I am nice to people who are nice, I am a jerk to people who are jerks. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 14:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

In this version of WP:RFA you edited as Kumioko. In the same revision there are 25 edits by 108.45.104.69 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) (clearly you). The following Interaction Tool Analysis show a small sample where you have edited multiply and a simple Ctrl-F highlights the sections in which your edits overlap. , ,,,, ,

On this subject of trolling, what would you call this?

Finally, unless I'm mistaken this could be you as well, interacting with your various IDs all over the place 71.126.152.253 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). Leaky Caldron 14:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

No that one is not me. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 17:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for proving my point, Kumioko. FWIW, I do generally "leave the admin stuff to people who are good at it". Doesn't mean I won't call a spade a spade though. But perhaps you can answer a question for me. Are you trying to nail yourself to a cross because you really want to be a martyr, or are you doing it because, despite numerous "retirements", you realize that you are unable to voluntarily separate yourself from a project you've long since given up on and are hoping someone else will do it for you? Resolute 14:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I dont really see how I proved a point about anything. To answer your question though I'm not really trying to be a martyr but if that's what it takes to call attention to the projects problem of abusive admins I guess I can be. I still think its a shame so much time and attention is being paid to me when everyone including n the admins know there are some abusive admins who shouldn't have the tools. Instead of addressing that, they would rather attack me because, presumably, they 1) don't like the message, 2) its easier and doesn't require the to go to Arbcom to do it and 3) don't like the inferance that they are abusers are enablers of abusers. The reason I keep coming back isn't because I cannot stay away, its because although I think this project is essentially a lost cause, I still hold this little tiny piece of hope that you all will listen to what I am saying, get off your lazy butts and do something to make the project better and get rid of some of the abusive and/or inept admins. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 17:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

You cannot be as naive as you appear, but surely you recognize that if you have an issue with a few specific individuals, your habit of tarring everyone with a broad brush is the easiest way to cause people to dismiss you entirely. As a revolutionary, you are a hopeless failure because you methods defeat whatever message you might think you have to share. Resolute 17:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Its Kumioko again, I just wanted to clarify since I am posting from an unusual IP.

• I thought about it a lot on my drive and I decided if the community decides that they would prefer to ban me from the project than to do something about the abusive admins then I will abide by that. Its disappointing but that's the culture here, if your not an admin, then you cant be trusted and are therefore not trustworthy. Trust is a big part of the problem with this site and which will IMO lead to its failure. Just post to the KumiokoCleanStart user page once everyone is done voting. I already know the outcome so I won't keep posting after this. I also added 2 more IP's to the list above. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Site ban

• Clear-cut case of not being here to build an encyclopedia. I can't believe this much time has been wasted on this disruptive user. I favor an outright ban on his main accounts and appropriate blocks to any IPs used. -- John Reaves 15:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
• I would support a site ban based on recent behavior. ⛵ Admiral Caius ⛵ 15:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban, frankly the statements here are enough to convince me, and what little I've seen elsewhere also support that. Nil Einne (talk) 15:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
• This thread was started as a discussion of a block review and has morphed into a call for banning when there has never even been an Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kumioko? I also believe that given the nature of "anti-admin" language that the admin noticeboards aren't the best place for this. If banned from here then it looks like the admins did it. The community at large would be more appropriate for commenting and making any decisions via consensus. This would allow the non-admins to take a more major role in reviewing this situation. If folks are worried about martyrdom then don't fuel it.Berean Hunter (talk) 15:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
  • That account is abandoned. He doesn't have a substantive account, just various IPs which are identifiable from the content. Leaky Caldron 15:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
  • I don't know whether this will hold up but so far, in terms of those who have actually !voted (all 3 in support), only 1/3 is an admin. Nil Einne (talk) 16:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
    • Why is it relevant how many are admins?--Rockfang (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
      • I think the point is that Kumioko sees himself as being targeted by admins, while casting fewer aspersions on non-admins; if non-admins are also calling for him to be banned, Kumioko's arguments are weakened. Nyttend (talk) 00:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
        • Also, as a response to people who commented just below: (1) WP:AN is where community bans almost always get discussed, and the exception is the bans that get discussed at WP:ANI. (2) As OrganicsLRO says, a ban can be imposed on someone with a dynamic IP. To quote WP:BAN: Bans are different from blocks, which are used by administrators to technically prevent a user account or IP address from editing Misplaced Pages. Blocks are used chiefly to deal with immediate problems such as vandalism or edit warring. A ban, on the other hand, does not technically prevent editing; however, blocks may be used to enforce bans. Also, if you have a surplus of time, go read Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Gundagai editors: there was an entire arbitration case for someone who only edited through dynamic IPs. Nyttend (talk) 02:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
      • Note that my reply was directed at Berean Hunter per the indenting. Berean Hunter said this was a bad place for a site ban discussion (despite the fact, as others have pointed out, it's the norm for such discussions to be held here or at ANI which I presume they were aware of) because it may seem like the admins did it. And considering Kumioko's apparent problem with admins this would be undesirable. I'm not saying I agree, but considering that, I thought it relevant to see how true this was. Since of course, most editors in good standing are welcome at the admin noticeboards. At the time, the statistics were 1/3 people were admins !voting to ban which IMO makes it difficult to claim 'the admins did it'. The statistics now include more admins, but I think (I didn't check carefully for alternative accounts only at the user rights of the linked account) it's still 7/10 non admins are supporting a ban and 4/5 admins supporting a ban (i.e. a total of 15). Of course consensus isn't counting votes (for example, I only counted those those who clearly expressed a support or oppose even though there are obviously some e.g. Berean Hunter who appear to be supportive or opposed but didn't express a clear opinion). But still from this simplistic look it doesn't really seem it will be a case of 'the admins did it' if a ban is enacted. Nil Einne (talk) 11:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose as improper circumstances. AN isn't the place for community ban discussions. An RFC/U would be more appropriate, per Berean. KonveyorBelt 16:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
  • • • • Point of information - As is noted above by others, AN and ANI are the two locations where community ban discussions happen, and there is no specified order of preceding enforcement / community actions required prior to someone proposing a ban. If someone proposes a ban for unjustified reasons that will be noted, of course. This statement is merely informational regarding the ban process and is not an opinion for or against the ban proposal. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • On what, a collection of IPs? (I haven't advocated a ban, btw). Leaky Caldron 16:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
    • I dunno. Maybe you ought to ask the person who started this ban discussion what exactly could be achieved by site banning proxies and dynamic IPs. KonveyorBelt 16:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
      • I thought a site ban was on the editor, rather than the account? The account may be long abandoned but it is clear that the editor is still here, and in the absence of any other common name, starting an RfC in the name of Kumioko (a name the editor clearly identifies as and responds to) would make more sense than any alternative I can think of. Organics 16:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
      • I didn't add the header, but I did propose the idea. I don't see any net positive to spending more time this editor. Perhaps it would be best to redirect this section to an RfC if that's the desired route. -- John Reaves 16:49, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify a few comments above, I was here to build an encyclopedia and as far back as 2010 and especially back in about February 2012 I was shown that isn't the priority anymore Its better for admins to protect their Wikifriends even if they are wrong, to jump to conclusions rather than perform due diligence and review all the facts and protect the articles they own and the WikiProjects they belong too. Even if that means using their tools and violate policy to win disagreements. So no, my priority is building an encyclopedia but too many here just want to be Wiki Politicians and control everything to ensure their POV gets pushed. So regardless of any site bans or blocks I am going to continue to advocate that this situation gets fixed so this project won't soon go the way of AOL and MySpace. I also want to clarify another point its not going to matter where you hold this discussion, there are a lot of admins and wanna be admins that will show up to vote me out. Which is fine if you would rather send a message that abusive admins and editors are allowed here. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 17:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Also to the commentors here, don't believe everything you read, there is a lot of spin being added to this discussion by folks who want me gone so they can continue to push their POV and do what they want with no repercussions. So read between the lines of what they are saying and take into account how long I have been here and how much I did for the project. Why would I just go high and to the right for no reason. Think about that for a minute. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 17:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Support Multiple attempts to encourage Kumioko to move onward from their platform of "Admins are bad because the community wouldn't make me one". The benefit that the community has derieved from their contributions has been overshadowed by the general disruption and drama caused. RBI on recognition of the editor should be authorized. If the credentials to the "Clean Start" account have been intentionally trashed then we should take that as a permanant request by the editor that they don't want to edit here ever again. We've already granted this editor more benefits than most other editors who have followed a similar path. WP:DIVA should be followed and the "user" should be sent on their way. Hasteur (talk) 21:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

If you really think I believe "Admins are bad because the community wouldn't make me one" you are gravely mistaken and really don't know me at all. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support I normally skip ahead when I realize that I'm looking at another whine from Kumioko, but recently I gave a snarky response and received two "thanks" messages (not just clicking a link) from editors who are also tired of the pointless time wasting. The sad part is that if Kumioko took a few months off and returned without the grudge, they could resume useful contributions. Johnuniq (talk) 22:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, and I say that as someone who has probably blocked him more than anyone. I'm really sad it's gotten to this point. I agree entirely with Johnuniq that Kumioko would benefit greatly by just forgetting about Misplaced Pages entirely for a few months; the method he's pursuing of effecting the changes he wants here is simply not working, and that has to be frustrating for him. But I don't think a ban would have that effect. In fact, I don't think it would have any effect other than alienating him further. It's not like he has a shortage of IP addresses he can post from if inclined, ban or no ban. 28bytes (talk) 23:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
  • That argument applies to all ban discussions and the standard reply is that the purpose of a ban is to allow swift closure by WP:RBI. Johnuniq (talk) 23:56, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

RBI is designed as a response to vandalism, not to pesky critics who won't shut up. Carrite (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

? Probably the majority of site bans are not for vandalism, it isn't necessary. When someone is a vandal it isn't needed to site ban them to establish the person isn't welcome. Site bans are much more commonly used for editors who are not vandals but are still highly disruptive and just won't either change their behaviour or leave when it becomes clear their behaviour is unwelcome. Nil Einne (talk) 11:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support as long overdue. BMK (talk) 00:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • And the community would do well without you here as well BMK. But then the community won't ban abusive editors or admins, just those who speak out about them. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
    • "And the community would do well without you here as well BMK". Possibly, but the community will determine that, not you.

      For someone who's annoyed when they're called a "troll", you're pretty free with the much more serious charge of "abuse" - you basically deal it out willy-nilly to anyone you dislike, sometimes on the flimsiest of rationales. But, for the record, my determination that it is appropriate that you be site banned has little to do with your being abusive of others, although, you've spewed out a number of NPAs recently (as have I, to my shame and regret). No, it's because you're become a net negative to the project. You're clearly WP:NOTHERE to improve the encyclopedia, and what commentary you do "contribute" - in Misplaced Pages space and on user talk pages - is unhelpful, repetitive, boring, childish, defensive, teaming with WP:BATTLEGROUND attitudes and fraught with an essential misunderstanding of what Misplaced Pages is and how the Misplaced Pages community works - although you clearly deem yourself an expert on that subject. Much of what you write appears to have the primary purpose of getting a reaction from someone, and if that's not "trolling", then nothing is.

      The bottom line is that the project will be better off without you, and you will probably be better off settling in as one of the resident shrieking voices at one of the Wiki-criticism sites, which will be much more attuned to your current program. If you ever decide to become a productive editor again, you can ask to be reinstated, but I'm sure that the leash would be extremely short - if, that is, you can convince enough people to give you yet another chance. BMK (talk) 02:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support as one of the admins that Kumioko considers "abusive": , Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/KumiokoCleanStart 2 Quite frankly, for someone who claims that admins have immunity from the same standards that regular editors are supposed to follow, he has been given much immunity, even though he should have been blocked long ago for Misplaced Pages:Casting aspersions, personal attacks, abusing multiple accounts (User:ThePhoenixReborn), block evasion , and other disruptive behavior. On this site, making serious accusations against any editor without evidence is not allowed; I don't see why my name has to repeatedly be dragged through the mud, and nobody will do anything about it, just because I am an admin. --Rschen7754 00:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Your correct I do count you there Rschen (but your not the only one) and you should have been blocked as well for many of the same reasons Rschen and yet not only have you not been you are an Arbcom clerk. That puts you firmly in the protected from persecution category. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 00:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support as 2 accounts & god knows how many IP's and yet still being disruptive, Perhaps the WP:ROPE'S just ran out?. →Davey2010→→Talk to me!→ 00:17, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support, BMK's rationale above spells the reasons out quite nicely - as do Kumioko's very own comments in this very thread. Whatever his past contributions may have been he's here now for the sole purpose of personally attacking people. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:32, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support site ban. A no-brainer; this has been getting increasingly disruptive for some weeks now, and the editor is very clearly WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support. It's a shame that it has come to this, but I don't see anything useful that Kumioko is contributing at the moment, and I see plenty of things that are not useful, as noted by Rschen7754 above. It would have been better to help Kumioko realise that the way he is attempting to reform the system is not working and not helpful, but that has been tried already. A ban seems to be the only route left. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - Insufficient evidence presented to merit this ultra-extreme outcome. Carrite (talk) 03:15, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• @Carrite - Has there ever been a site ban that you have !voted in favor of? I can't think of one. BMK (talk) 01:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Question: Kumioko, what would you like to see happen? What would you consider a win, and if you got it, would you be willing to take a break? - Dank (push to talk) 05:17, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Excellent question there, Dank.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
    • I don't think it matters what I want, I really honestly don't think anyone cares. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 03:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
      • Fair enough. I replied below at WP:AN#Sensitive_IP_list. - Dank (push to talk) 14:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. I do not see the excessive harm about mentioning past problems, and often Kumioko's comments have been helpful to remember other issues by an editor with 400,000+ edits. I think blocking all IPs would likely do more harm, than good, because other anon editors would be locked out from editing at those numerous IPs. -Wikid77 (talk) 09:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support - appears to have left constructive criticism behind some time ago. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, with the strongest possible recommendation to Kumioko that he take six months away from the project before coming back again; at that point, i hope, his great productivity would have a chance to be better/stronger than his equally great frustration. Cheers, Lindsay 12:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support, it's about time. The user has had plenty of second, third and fourth chances, but still can't edit productively and it is apparent that he is incapable of taking a voluntary wikibreak. Nsk92 (talk) 12:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support a site ban on the registered accounts, after which the IP addresses can be dealt with as block-evading sock puppets. If there is no "community consensus" here, recommend that his case be referred to ArbCom. (I think that "community consensus" at these noticeboards is a will-o-the-wisp, but that is my opinion.) I sympathize with but don't understand the suggestions that this editor voluntarily take a break. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - He may be playing the victim, he may be getting on some people's nerves, but my own interactions with the user have been positive and productive. The user cares about Misplaced Pages quite a lot, to the point that conflict in the name of defending it - and apparently being removed from the project seems better then simply "throwing the towel in". A month off Misplaced Pages is more than enough time to get the priorities in order. A site ban under the circumstances is not going to help Misplaced Pages as much as it will validate the negative views. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 17:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Comment RfC/U are beyond pointless. They don't cause people to change their behavior and are little more than a "who can drag the most people's names through the mud the fastest contest". As for the site ban, I think it would be best to abstain from voting in it. Kumioko considers me to be a founding member of the evil league of evil. --In actu (Guerillero) | My Talk 17:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• sigh I'm going to let you all in on a little secret. It involves a mailing list discussion so the identity of the other participants will have to remain undisclosed, as well as exactly what they said. When the "clean start" account was started there was a discussion on the functionaries mailing list about whether or not it was socking. Because he deliberately got his old account blocked by, as I recall, publicly posting the password, it was not really a normal block. I believe the account was actually globally locked, which is a steward action that even arbcom cannot reverse on its own authority. By creating a new account and resuming exacly the same activities as his old account he was undoubtedly evading the block. I argued at the time that although he was evading the block he seemed to be doing what he was doing for attention and if we let the baby have his bottle that might take some of the wind out of his sails, mixaphorically speaking.

I won't say I regret having made that argument, but clearly I was wrong as it is now clear to me that all it did was prolong the day this discussion was finally had. And now he is doing the same thing again, deliberately testing the borders of the socking policy, pretending to walk away and coming straight back and doing exactly what he was doing before.

As much as I dislike the out-of-process blocks and attempts to end-run the banning policy I sympathize with the intent behind them. This is a user who is extremely tendentious in his arguments, who almost never has anything positive to say, and who again and agin stirs up trouble for no apparent reason other than to make a scene. When a user repeatedly quits WP in dramatic fashion and then immediately returns under another identity and continues what they were doing before, that is not an indication something is wrong with WP, it is an indication that something is wrong with that person. I don't pretend to know what that something is but I do believe the best thing would be if WP and Kumioko had some time apart. Like others here I would prefer Kumioko just saw the logic of that and showed some self control for once and just walked away, but I don't hold out much hope for that actually happening. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You are correct it was globally locked because I posted my password, I asked for my account to be locked and any admin could have done that but since I was denied I posted the password. That was, as I said, because I wanted my account locked and to edit as an IP, as is the case now, that was not allowed, so I created the ThePhoenixReborn account, that was called socking so I created the KumiokoCleanStart account because I had too many edits to simply rename the old account, they had to move it. So now that I am an IP again, its again an issue. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support In Principle -- I think enough is enough with Kumioko and his shenanigans. However, the one who imposes the blocks on the accounts and numerous IPs are going to have to make sure that the IPs are not highly dynamic. Perhaps a range block would work, in addition to blocking the accounts? Sportsguy17 (T • C) 19:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Comment I find this discouraging because Kumioko has the potential to be a very productive member of the community. I haven't followed the history to know what went wrong, but I wish there were a better solution.--S Philbrick(Talk) 19:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose -- less extreme measures should be used first. For instance, require the user to operate a single account or if they want to edit as an IP, we make some sort of restriction that they don't use IP's to evade scrutiny. Jehochman 20:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Carrite, per ChrisGualtieri, per others. --doncram 20:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support something I can't tell if the User is evading a block or what, but the status quo: the repetitive unhelpful posts, the casting generalized and personal aspersions, the multiple unregistered accounts abuse needs to stop. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose- Per beeble's first comments on thread. What he's doing while some consider annoying is that he is not using his account. I don't see that as site ban worthy. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 20:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • That is not why he's being proposed to be banned. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, because Beeblebrox is wrong is saying that is not an indication something is wrong with WP, it is an indication that something is wrong with that person. Beeblebrox is not incorrect because nothing is wrong with Kumioko's approach, but because this is Misplaced Pages: nothing is black and white / binary. We even espouse that in one of our five pillars (WP:IAR). While K's engagement style has become chronically ineffective -- I find the validity of his points is lost in both the volume and lack of structure in their contributions, and find myself skimming over their longer posts in discussions I otherwise have interest it -- there is no doubt in my mind that they value Wikpedia-the-Encylopedia and correctly identify some of its shortcomings. In the long term, we would better off at listening to some of Misplaced Pages's more critical contributors on-wiki rather than compelling them off-wiki, because a) the criticisms could be seen and evaluated by more editors, and b) on-wiki criticism is less likely to exceed the bounds of decency that sometimes occur off-wiki.
  

While personally I don't have a problem with the IP editing because I can identify K almost immediately by the style, I understand most editors probably won't, so I would support a ban on intentional IP editing; that is, K should be required to create yet another account and use that exclusively because, honestly, if they've got to the point they feel that just having to log in is too much of a burden, it probably is time for a wiki-break.

What no one has suggested or provided a link to is any instant of K disrupting mainspace -- you know, the important stuff. If their contributions in DR forums are disruptive, remember The oyster makes the pearl. NE Ent 20:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

So if you never edit in mainspace, you're allowed to personally attack anyone you want as much as you want in other spaces without consequence? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose site ban. I think any user who proposes the ban of a user that does not result in consensus for the ban ought to be sanctioned their self, progressing in short order to their own topic ban against such nominations. I'll bet we would see an immediate reduction in these specious ban requests and an equivalent increase in RfC/U; in other words, a return to propriety.—John Cline (talk) 21:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • The result of that would be chaos as nobody would ever propose a ban. And in many cases (including this one) a RfC/U is pointless bureaucracy. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • So only users with the gift of precognition and an affinity for process may propose bans? -- John Reaves 21:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm nearly certain yours is but rhetoric, though I will proffer an answer: No.—John Cline (talk) 13:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support. Kumioko started out as a productive editor, doing lots of bot-style small improvements, and working very hard to promote Featured content such as List of African-American Medal of Honor recipients. He assumed leadership of WikiProject United States, and there he began to run into trouble with other editors who did not agree with him. His failed RfA was a turning point; after that he was angry at the RfA process which did not give him the simple tools he needed to do more bot-style improvements. From that point forward Kumioko has been a thorn in the side of the RfA process, and an attention-seeking drama troll. He's threatened to leave Misplaced Pages many times. I support a site ban because Kumioko has long since become a resource drain on Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 21:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify the reason this ban is being discussed, is because the community would rather ban me for criticizing admins than to actually do anything about said admins. That's it, plain and simple. The nail that sticks out gets hammered and I am sticking out. Its not surprising that a large portion of those that voted support here (not all, in fact there are some editors I have never seen before) are also the same editors and admins who I think are the trouble. Another note is that I have little respect for those who would block me for "personal attacks or harassment" but then allow the editors I am responding too to call me "DIVA", "an attention-seeking drama troll", and others. Its pretty hard for me to respect someone who only enforces the rules when they don't like the editor or when they feel like it and not when the situation warrants it. If admins cannot separate themselves from their Wikifriends and enforce policy fairly and evenly then they/you shouldn't be admins, period! If that hurts your feelings, at this point, then I don't care, because its obvious no one cares about my feelings or the project which I am trying to get the community to make better. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 22:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Your "clarification" is nothing but yet another reiteration of your same-old tired screed, and entirely misses the point. You are being considered for being banned on the basis of very sound policies and guidelines, such as WP:NOTHERE, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:TENDENTIOUS, WP:SOCKPUPPETRY, WP:DIVA, WP:NPA and WP:DISRUPTION, all of which you are egregiously in violation of. This would be the case if your behavior was precisely that same as it has been, but your message had nothing whatsoever to do with admins, because it's the behavior which has caused this problem for you, not your specific viewpoint. The fact that you cannot see this, or how your behavior is seen by others is a major part of the problem.

It really would be in your best interest to stop commenting here - you'd get more "oppose" !votes that way, whereas every time you post, you dig your hole that much deeper, since every comment is a display of exactly the problems that are being discussed. BMK (talk) 00:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and to those opposing the ban, I suggest you check out Kumioko's veiled threat to resort to massive sockpuppetry in the section below, where he writes: "if I want to edit, blocking the 2 or three above is pointless. I also know how to get around the checkuser program if I wanted to do that and create an army of throwaway accounts." Yes, he does follow this by saying that he won't do that, but surely he is letting us know that he could if he wanted to. That, to me, is an implicit warning to us of his capability to disrupt Misplaced Pages, and an attempt on his part to coerce the discussion in his favor, since there was no real need to reveal this information otherwise. BMK (talk) 00:54, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

No again, since you didn't read my comment that is not what I am saying. I am saying don't waste a bunch of time worrying about blocking IP's because its pointless and ineffective. That's it. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 01:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I parsed your comment quite closely. I know exactly what your statement meant on a superficial level, and that may even be what you think you were saying, but it was also, quite clearly, a implicit warning of what you are capable of doing. BMK (talk) 02:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Look BMK I was just stating that from a technical aspect there really isn't anything you can do to block me if my intent is to do so. 28bytes said it above as well and so did a couple other people. It doesn't really matter at this point, you folks are going to think whatever you want and there isn't anything I can say to change your mind. No one wants to do anything about abusive admins, it would rather silence me for trying. I edited up till about August of this year (along with advocating changes) and about August 2013 I just stopped making edits to articles because it became clear that it isn't a priority of the project anymore. People would rather protect their articles, they would rather blog in talk pages and act like they control the project. Then you have the WMF tearing up the project by releasing garbage like Visual Editor and soon Flow. So I feel like I am the only one around that even cares about the project. Am I? Certainly not, but it feels like it because all people want to do is rail on me. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 03:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

If everyone "cared" for the project the way you do, the encyclopedia would wilt on the vine, and we'd all drown in WP:DRAMA. I, and most other editors care for the encyclopedia in a positive way, by improving articles, writing templates, categorizing, and so on. We care for it by making the encyclopedia better, that's what being a "productive editor" means. BMK (talk) 04:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support, unfortunately. A couple of days ago on ANI I said I didn't think the level of disruption warranted a block, but I've since changed my mind. For example, the comment below, "I also know how to get around the checkuser program if I wanted to do that and create an army of throwaway accounts." sounds very much like a user who is totally off the rails and extremely unlikely to return to productive community editing. Sad that it's come to this, but here we are. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

No, this is exactly why I don't trust you as an admin. Your picking and choosing pieces of the comment to justify what you want. Read the whole comment, not just the first sentence. I was just suggesting they not spend a bunch of discussion time on something that was irrelevant. Its like me just looking at your comment of A couple of days ago on ANI I said I didn't think the level of disruption warranted a block and justifying that you are saying I shouldn't be banned. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 23:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Don't be silly, what I want is for you to return to productive encyclopedia editing, or as a second choice to at least leave with some dignity and your head held high. Regardless of how the votes tally up, I won't be getting what I want because I'd say both those bridges burned awhile ago. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• I support a site ban. Honestly, all this stuff got old ages ago. The user rarely if ever produces constructive content anymore; most of what I've seen from the user consists of whining about admins and the RfA process. TCN7JM 22:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. The problem isn't Kumioko, it's all the people responding to him and giving him attention. Personally, I think he has made constructive contributions and has a lot to offer. His whining about not being an admin is annoying, but I ignore it, and so should you. I don't understand this need to block him and I oppose it. Viriditas (talk) 00:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Right, the problem isn't with the guy swinging his fists, it's with the people who get in the way of the punch. BMK (talk) 00:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• No, the problem is with people who poke the bear, and then blame the bear for the problem. I've had several encounters with Kumioko and I don't see how he deserves a site ban. He actually deserves to be left alone. I hope that's not beyond your ken. Viriditas (talk) 01:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• If he was a productive editor, I would totally agree with you, but as he himself admits (see above, where he writes "I was here to build an encyclopedia and as far back as 2010 and especially back in about February 2012 I was shown that isn't the priority anymore") he's "seen the light" and is no longer here to build an encyclopedia, he's on a self-appointed Mission, with a capital "M", and we're not here to accommodate that. If he were to become productive again, he should indeed be left alone to make his contribution, but there's no way the project can allow his kind of behavior from a rampant free-loading non-contributor, it sucks up time and gets in the way of the work.

  You're also wrong about people "poking him", if by that you mean they come to him to bait him. It's actually just the opposite, he haunts the high-profile pages, provoking people and whining when he doesn't get his way. If he's being "poked", it's because he actively went out looking to be poked, in order that he could, yet again, repeat his litany of what's wrong with Misplaced Pages. BMK (talk) 02:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

That's not what I am saying BMK, as usual you are completely misreading what I said. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 03:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, Kumioko, you cannot deny the meaning of your words. There is no "misreading", there is only what you said - why is why you should really not comments any more. BMK (talk) 04:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support per Andrew Lenahan and BMK. Kumioko appears to largely be here for the drama these days, and not to contribute to developing an encyclopaedia in a direct way. Their statement about block evasion below is concerning. Nick-D (talk) 02:48, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• I can respect the editors calling for a ban based on the volume, tenor, and frequency of K's posts, although I don't agree with it. But implying there's some policy requiring all contributions to be direct is just making stuff up, and if the statement "I have already stated if the community bans me from this site I will live with that." is "concerning," this place really has jumped the shark. NE Ent 04:07, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• That's the point I was trying to make by saying that they're here for the drama now. Nick-D (talk) 04:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment – Kumioko mainly inhabits drama boards these days, where nothing much real happens. He is not disruptive to the main task of building Misplaced Pages. Sure Kumioko is tedious with his endless whinges about not being an admin. But we all have our quirks, and I would have thought the admin corps would be flattered by this inexplicable yearning of Kumioko to be a part of them. Aside from that, Kumioko is one of the now vanishingly small breed of editors willing and able to articulate accurate critiques of the system. The widespread admin stategy of treating able critics of the system as vandals and trolls by ignoring and marginalising what they have say, is of course effective. It is the strategy to be be expected from a bankrupt system which has no persuasive or rational counters to draw on. The last remaining strategy, and the system seems to be moving steadily that way, would be to somehow shut down constructive criticism altogether. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• I'd appreciate a diff of some "constructive criticism" from K. BMK (talk) 04:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• There is such a wealth of material there that I am not going to do that BMK. You can't have been actually reading what he has said. Just search back into the past on Kumioko posts practically anywhere and you will find constructive criticism. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• (My goodness, my reading comprehension seems to be the subject of the moment.) No, I assure you that I have read what he's said (how could I avoid reading it, when he says it over and over and over again?), and I've found his criticism to be puerile, superficial and unconstructive. In point of fact, I've not seen him provide anything like a constructive suggestion to alleviate the faults he trumpets so loudly - he contents himself with complaining and tearing down, not with fixing and rebuilding. I was rather hoping that you would provide me with something constructive that he's said, but it seems that you're unable to do that, which is a shame. BMK (talk) 05:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I said nothing about your "reading comprehension". The first step in constructive criticism is to clearly identify dysfunctional areas in the existing system. Kumioko does this repeatedly and often well. He naturally repeats these "over and over and over again", because the typical admin response is to ignore such concerns and pretend they don't exist. Acknowledgement has to be there before there is any point in moving to constructive alternatives. Somebody needs to be listening. Nonetheless, Kumioko often suggests constructive alternatives. His arguments should be listened to and responded to with reasoned replies, and not just blown off with emotive language like "puerile and superficial". --Epipelagic (talk) 06:28, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunatly saying two editors "are jerks and should be banned", then later referring saying one is "a jerk to everyone" and " been stripped of his admin rights long ago for being a jerk to everyone" (full disclosure, he was referring to me) isn't 'constructive criticism', but rather personal attacks, and this isn't anything new but is, rather, his long-term M.O. It's regrettable, but since he either cannot or will not accept that what he might very well believe is constructive criticism is unacceptable to the Misplaced Pages community, well, that's why we're here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I understand you are upset Kumioko said you were a jerk. Was Kumioko rude to you for no reason, or did you say something prior that upset him? Do you think that because you are an admin your feelings are more important than his? Are you saying you want Kumioko site banned because he hurt your feelings, and that this is what this issue is really about? --Epipelagic (talk) 09:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

No, I'm not any of the above, but I am very dissapointed in the assumptions you've made that underly the statement above. I am not upset, my feelings are LESS important than anyone else's, and I do not "want" Kumioko site-banned. This issue, however, is really about the fact he makes and continues to make personal attacks and sees no problem with this, and thus as he either cannot or will not abide by Misplaced Pages policy and has declared below (whether he admits, or even realises, it or not) that he will continue to IP-hop sock, a ban is the only remedy left. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

You say you don't want Kumioko site-banned, yet you vote to ban him. You say you are not upset Kumioko said you were a jerk, yet you say this is what the issue is really about. Did you discuss with him rationally what led him to make that comment? Kumioko's IP-hopping is pretty transparent and is only a problem for people who choose to make it a problem. He stated clearly below that he will not IP-hop if "the community" decides to muzzle him. A decision coming from a board like this, habituated by little more than admins, admin wanabees and drama board devotees, is certainly not a "community" decision. --Epipelagic (talk) 00:11, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

I doubt if there's ever a World War III the people who turn the keys will want to turn the keys, but the keys will still get turned. I am, as mentioned, not upset in the least - to me, the insult is water off a duck's back. However, the repeated and flagrant violations of policy are the reason I don't see any other option but the ban. As far as discussing why he views me so negatively, I'm quite willing to if there is a prospect of progress. However the fact that, AFAICR, the only real interaction I had was where I opposed his usurpation of WP:FLORIDA by WP:US and things there seemed collegial at the time, means I haven't the slightest clue why he thinks I'm such a jerk. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

The difference between theory and practice. In 1983, the keys did not get turned. Viriditas (talk) 10:51, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, Epipelagic, but if there's constructive criticism at any point since Kumioko abandoned his account, at least, it's been stealthier than a B-2 stealth bomber. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:22, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps that's in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps it's there, as potent as a B-2 stealth bomber. --Epipelagic (talk) 06:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh please Bushranger, I called a spade a spade. This is nothing more than silencing me from continuing to call out abusive admins. That's all this discussion has been about. The starter if this discussion never intended for this to turn into a site ban discussion but you and a few others saw this as your opportunity to get rid of me. If I called someone abusive they did something first that provoked me to do so. I didn't just pick admins at random. As for personal attacks. I have been the target of personal attacks that no one gives a shit about for years. Calling me a vandal, a troll, a DIVA, then abusing the tools and blocking me for personal attacks because I responded in kind and didn't just stay in my little corner and take it. Now you and BMK and a few others want me to just stay out of the discussion while you twist what I say out of context, include blatant lies and distortions of the truth so you can justify banning me from the project? Please, that's not how I am wired. If this comes down to a ban then fine, but I am not going to just stand aside while I am still able to post and allow a few of the most abusive admins and editors on this site run this discussion. No one on this site cares about abusive admins or what I have to say about them at this point but when I am gone and they aren't under the gun and able to do whatever they want again its going to get worse. This discussion is just serving as an enabler to those. They are watching and hoping I get banned. This ban is just a disgraceful attempt to get me out of the way so a minority of the project can justify running it into the ground. I think it should be important to note that the people who voted here represent an almost insignificant portion of the community, far less than even an average RFA, and most are those that I think are abusive or bad editors and I have called out as being such at some point. At this point frankly, it really doesn't represent anything even remotely close to a community consensus. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 12:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Kumioko, there is a lot of sympathy for your views about abusive and ineffective Admins., not least from myself which you will know from many past discussions at RfA. Why, I have even be the subject of such within the context of this very discussion. Your problem as I see it is that you take your anger out on anyone who gets in your way, Admin., "bad" Admin. or non-Admin. You called me a liar twice up there without the slightest justification for pointing out your obvious use of multiple Ids while editing and for highlighting a blatant example of trolling, namely "Lol Ding ding ding. See, no need to login at all.", when challenged about it. You have too little to say and you say it too loudly, I'm afraid. The fundamental point you wish to highlight is being lost and you are now exasperating those who otherwise would agree and support you. I think the best way to deal with this is to ignore your off-topic rants via a modified version of WP:RBI, revert and ignore without the block, while leaving your useful contributions to speak for themselves. Leaky Caldron 12:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Moreover, it's just too confusing with these different ID's. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:11, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support I'm sorry Kumioko. I really like you, and I enjoy every time we talk, but you need to stay out of Misplaced Pages for a while. It's for your own good. Six months to a year might do very good, but without a formal note that you are out I am sure you will just come back and back again until the end of time. You cannot separate from Misplaced Pages to take rest and come back fresh by youself, and so I feel forced to support a site ban I would not support under any other circumstances just because I know that it will be the best for you :( — ΛΧΣ 04:44, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
• Strongest possible oppose - but hey, it's from an IP, so you might discount it. This proposal is blocking a user for speaking against the established consensus - doing so is repressing free debate, and leads to repression of ideas that can wake up this damn project. You are clutching at straws, saying he isn't here to "build an encyclopedia". You claim that the only way to help the project is to write articles - when it suits you. There are other ways to help - and one way is absolutely discussing the problems. I expect the Thought Police will win this argument though. 88.104.19.171 (talk) 06:37, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

This cuts to the heart of the issue. There are over one thousand admins, and they have positioned themselves so they now have the power to close down the last remnant whimpers of constructive debate on Misplaced Pages. Prominent admins are pointedly endorsing blocking admins with awards and offering testimonials to the rectitude of admins who make unjust blocks. It is an increasingly fraught environment, where soon only admins and their yes men will have a voice. To say Kumioko isn't here to build an encyclopedia, as the OP of thi thread claims above, is gross misrepresentation and a more vexatious form of incivility than any Kumioko is guilty of. --Epipelagic (talk) 08:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

How many of those 1000+ admins are active accounts? We do need adminship reform as Kumioko has so plaintively addressed for the last several years, but the way he's gone about it has been all wrong. He's got good ideas, but his social skills need work. That's the problem here. Viriditas (talk) 09:03, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Why hasn't anyone invited me to join the admin cabal Epipelagic has uncovered? Am I not evil enough or something? Nick-D (talk) 09:47, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe you spend too much time writing content, & not enough time cultivating drama? Like me? (That's the only reason I have for why no one complains about my bitter attitude.) - llywrch (talk) 00:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support To be honest I can't believe the community has put up with his nonsense this long. It should have been done a long time ago. Heck it should be been done when he evaded previous blocks by using his old bot account. He wastes so much editor time and causes so much harm to the wiki that it blows my mind that he thinks he is helping it. -DJSasso (talk) 13:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• If only you would calm down, I could stop whipping you. Really folks, if Kumioko isn't buggering articles, just leave them alone. If they make inflammatory comments, find somebody who gets along with them to ask them to chill out. This whole process is just exacerbating the problem rather than solving it. Jehochman 14:30, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Totally agree with Jehochman. Bishonen | talk 15:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC).

• Oppose. Is this really the worst thing about Misplaced Pages anyone can find to start a thread about? Sure Kumioko is always talking about admin abuse, but is that worse than actual abusive admins? Banning someone because you disagree with them is extremely bad form. —Neotarf (talk) 16:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - If the Misplaced Pages treated its critics less like pariahs and more like people, there would eventually be less of a need for external criticism sites. Tarc (talk) 17:14, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support - I don't like the idea of a ban for this user, who has shown himself to be as capable and committed a contributor as Kumioko is, but his disruptive behavior has reached a point that I have to conclude that a ban is appropriate. The fact that Kumioko's IPs ended up being the subject of an SPI case on another user is indicative of how broadly disruptive his behavior can be. Resolute's comments about anti-admin zealotry are on target, and Leaky caldron's bill of particulars is (unfortunately) accurate. A ban should be for a defined period (not indefinite, as this is a user who *should* be welcome here). I hope that Kumioko can control himself enough to abide by such a ban -- so that it doesn't get extended for bad behavior, but I'm not real optimistic about that. --Orlady (talk) 18:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support site ban. User is clearly not here any more to contribute. --AdmrBoltz 19:05, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support. Has anyone paid attention to what he's been saying in this thread? His comments include repeated accusations of lying and corruption; look at the paragraph beginning with "I also wanted to point something else out", for example. He's been responsible for jumping into tons of situations that don't involve him, only inflaming the results; let me remind you of the sockpuppet investigation for WilliamJE that I linked above, which clearly wouldn't have happened had he been editing with a username or had he not come in at all. This is not a simple critic: he raises WP:ANI threads while not mentioning an identity that everyone knows, and the results of the situation are markedly different from what they'd be if he'd noted who he was. That's the most basic element of WP:SCRUTINY. Throughout his comments, we're told how the eevil admins (me especially) are out to get him, without any evidence whatsoever. Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence are considered personal attacks, and serious accusations require serious evidence. Make those accusations without presenting any evidence whatsoever, and why should we permit you to continue? Nyttend (talk) 23:17, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

For what its worth Nyttend your not the worst admin, there are a couple I would consider worse. And just because your personal attacks are passive aggressive instead of direct doesn't mean they aren't personal attacks. And didn't you already vote in this discussion once above...or was that just a passing comment jumping into a situation that doesn't involve you, only inflaming the results? Or is this situation different because your an admin and I am not? BannedEditor (talk) 04:53, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support. This edit, which comes across as little more than trolling, is the final straw for me. The repeated IP-jumping, now coupled with throwaway account creation, is unacceptable. SuperMarioMan 23:25, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I see "things they do wrong" above, but I don't see reasons for such a huge and serious action. North8000 (talk) 23:38, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. There's evidence of problematic behaviour, specifically personal attacks, and probably a battleground attitude, but not enough to justify a ban. Maybe try dispute resolution first; if that fails editing restrictions (such as interaction bans) would be more appropriate than a site ban. Peter James (talk) 00:58, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
  • It is best to know a little about a case before commenting on it. Suggestions about dispute resolution and interaction bans may be fine for a run-of-the-mill problem, but they are totally inapplicable in this situation. Johnuniq (talk) 03:33, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose – What Jehochman says is totally on the point; Kumioko isn't doing things that are egregiously harmful to Misplaced Pages, so he should be let off the hook with a lesser punishment. Epicgenius (talk) 15:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• What punishment would you suggest? BMK (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose per Jehochman and Tarc. I have seen no problematic behaviour in his use of various IP addresses interchangeably with accounts - everybody usually knows who they're dealing with, and when they don't it doesn't matter. I suppose it must be tiresome for hopeless, foolish, arrogant and abusive jumped-up little tools to have him pointing out their limitations, but there is a place for critics among us and plenty of valid targets for his criticism. Criticising the behaviour of literally dozens of deeply toxic personalities here is helping to build the encyclopedia. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:40, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose—Doesn't seem like it will help anything. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
• Support per WP:SOCK, WP:DIVA (including the whole "Please globally block me!" incident on Meta), WP:GRIEFING, and failure to follow the terms of remaining unblocked upon creating KumiokoCleanStart. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 21:00, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

First, when do IP's get to vote in discussions on anything. Second, I see you added my old bot account claiming it was a sock, since when do valid bot accounts count as a sock? Third, you added at least 3 IP's that aren't affiliated to me in any way whatsoever. So this leads me to believe, since no one removed any of it, that stuff is going to be added randomly to my case to assist in justifying why I should be banned. I grant you its from an IP and IP's have no rights on WP as I have learned over the past few weeks and months, but still. If the evidence to ban me isn't there we shouldn't be manufacturing new stuff and twisting policies to suit our needs. This whole discussion is just turning into a bash Kumioko fest so someone pick an end date, tally the votes and close this fucking thing already. I don't need trolls and POV pushers commenting about how I hurt their feelings for violating policy and being bullies forever. BannedEditor (talk) 21:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Evidence for additions to list:

• Kumi-Taskbot (talk · contribs) was used to sock around the 15 February 2012 block of Kumioko and was blocked for it
• 138.162.0.45 was used to sock around the 20 February 2013 of Kumioko
• 138.162.0.43 was used to sock around the same block
• 138.162.0.42 was used to sock around the same block by editing in a comment that was signed "Kumioko" from 138.162.0.41 (now also added to the list)
• The block log of 71.163.243.232 (talk · contribs) provides ample evidence of its use to sock around blocks

While the .45 and .43 edits are not signed, the editor's fascination with ArbCom, the complete lack of the IP's history in that realm before or after, their critical contents, and the timing all point to block evasion. The rest are clear block evasions. 71.234.215.133 (talk)

In regards to the bot, I added 2 comments to discussions letting them know that I had been blocked. That was it. If you want to make a huge fucking issue out of that, then fine go ahead. As for the IP's hell I don't know, maybe it was me, that was a few years ago and frankly at this point I just don't give a shit. This discussion is a lost cause anyway and has devolved into a free for all mudslinging contest anyway because the admins want to let everyone be able to take their jabs instead of doing their fucking jobs and ensuring there is some civility maintained in these discussions. Everyone can say what they want except Kumioko, lets block him, everyone else gets their say though. I have a suggestion, why don't you all run a bot and just undo every edit I made. All 450, 000 of them. Just reversion delete them right out. I don't care. I just left a note on 28bytes's talk page to close this as a ban and initiate the ban. Then everyone can go back to pushing their POV, admins can get back to using their tools abusively and editors can continue to be the owners of their articles and their projects. No collaboration needed. What a fucking joke Misplaced Pages has become. BannedEditor (talk) 22:28, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Questions for Kumioko

So of us have questions before replying -- Moxy (talk) 18:57, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• Kumioko what is your intent here at this project? What are your plans on being constrictive to the project. At one time you did edit articles in a positive manner...is this something you plan to do again or are you here to advocate a change in how things are done here?-- Moxy (talk) 18:57, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Sensitive IP list

The sensitive IP list should be automated to produce a warning when blocking one of them, and an email to WMF should be generated automatically. When blocking IPs I would bet that most admins don't exhaustively checks the sensitive list. It's ridiculous to ask people to do such checks manually when software can do the same job with much greater vigilance and accuracy. Jehochman 20:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

My experience with sensitive IPs is that the block log is generally indicative of their status as such (e.g. comments in the summaries and multiple short-term blocks). -- John Reaves 21:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It already does - see screenshot. Black Kite (talk) 21:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Good. I've complained before about this. I'll check the IP against the addresses on the blocking page, but I'm not going to go to the main list and check against that. Dougweller (talk) 22:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Don't get too wrapped up with the blocking of IP's unless your intent is to restrict all IP's from editing because if I want to edit, blocking the 2 or three above is pointless. I also know how to get around the checkuser program if I wanted to do that and create an army of throwaway accounts. I have already stated if the community bans me from this site I will live with that. So unless your willing to ban all IP's, don't spend too much time talking about blocking my IP's and whether their restricted. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 22:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You are not scoring point with that statement. What are you upset about and if you have a justified grievance, how could I help you? Jehochman 09:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

My grievance isn't with you, its just a simple statement being blown out of proportion. You guys are assuming its technically possible to block me if I choose to continue to edit and its not. Short of banning all IP edits and making it so people have to request an account be related and their identity verified. I know too much about how the Wikimedia software and Misplaced Pages and the checkuser program work so your just wasting your time discussing blocking or not blocking sensitive IP's. If the community bans me then I will stop editing. You don't need to get wrapped up over blocking IP's. With that said, most of those who are calling for me to be banned are those I have identified as being abusive or a detriment to the project in the past so its hard to consider this a consensus of the community unless more uninvolved editors weigh in. 67.237.217.106 (talk) 12:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A lot of people here, including you Kumioko, are making valid points, but I think this last comment is definitive. You don't recognize this as a valid forum, or these critics as valid critics. You know how to subvert the system, and intend to, if you have to. So ... I'm not sure what this discussion can accomplish. There seems to be no enthusiasm in this discussion for an RfC/U ... the problem isn't that more information needs to be generated, it's that people on all sides of this discussion have more information than they want to have, ... and that leads to votes intended to "just get it over with", which can't be fair to you, Kumioko ... or to the people who feel that you're interfering with the jobs they perform on Misplaced Pages. All that leaves is ArbCom. Are there any objections to moving this discussion to that setting? - Dank (push to talk) 14:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Not so much an objection @Dank:, just a practical concern that we will end up with 2 months of highfalutin waffle from a group of functionaries in whom I have probably even less confidence that Kumioko does about Admins. (look at the pigs ear they made of the recent WMF motion, almost all too eager to jump on an Admin. here at the behest of a bullying WMF staffer without taking time to consider the wider picture). This isn't rocket science. Kumioko can accept a suggestion to use a new registered user and have his content subject to removal or hatting when it is wildly off topic or the same thing to the various IPs he uses. He has never demonstrated good-hand, bad-hand socking behaviour and I think just ignoring the diatribes while discussing his valid points can be a possible way forward. If he agrees.... But either way, Arbcom. would come up with God knows what sort of impenetrable sanctions which defy implementation. Leaky Caldron 14:54, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you that Arbcom's decisions have sometimes seemed odd ... perhaps they were looking at a different set of facts than I had access to, perhaps not ... but I don't think that's a reason not to refer a case to Arbcom, if there's no other suitable setting for the case. If we're worried that the Arbcom case will fail because it won't take X into account, then we should try to get consensus for the statement: Arbcom, we're referring this case to you, but we want you to make sure and take X into account. I haven't ever gotten the sense from Arbcom that they don't want to hear about what goals the community is looking for in an Arbcom case. - Dank (push to talk) 15:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

sigh - Ok, maybe I wasn't being clear enough the last few times so here goes again. The statement above was not intended to be a threat or a message of intent, it was merely a statement pointing to the technical limitations of the Misplaced Pages software. I say again, I have no intention, of posting after this ban takes effect. Also as a further point of clarification you are correct that I do not think this discussion is an adequate representation of "consensus" of the community however in addition to the supports and opposes here I have also gotten at least 3 dozen emails from various editors, more of which are supporters than opposes of this ban, but chose not to vote here for various reasons. They did feel compelled to explain their reasons in private to me however which is totally fine by me. In addition to that, this is a high traffic, high visibility page and a lot of people by now have read and chosen not to comment, so in sight of the fact they didn't oppose it, I am counting them as in tacit support of this ban. As such, if no one noticed, I already added the Community ban banner to my old talk page and I am going to add a thank to the folks that opposed this ban. Other than that, my suggestion would be to close it. If you still feel inclined to take it to Arbcom, feel free although from my experience with them I am going to say that's probably going to be a waste of your time...but its your time to waste. Aside from that I would just close this as ban implemented. Although it might be useful in the future to define what the ban is and what the duration will be so that anyone who sees this in the future doesn't think the community does everything half assed just because they don't like the editor in involved. 108.45.104.158 (talk) 03:06, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Okay, let me just throw out a suggestion and we'll see how it goes. You've added a ban notice to the talk page for User:KumiokoCleanStart. Can you deal with a three-month ban, and would you be willing to check in with me after three months? At that time, I'd like to hear how things are going, whether your perspective on any of the above has changed, and if you have ideas for things you'd like to do on Misplaced Pages. Then I'll submit your ideas to the community and we'll see how it goes. I'd like to see you working on things you enjoy again. - Dank (push to talk) 03:52, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Kumioko's reply is at User talk:KumiokoCleanStart. I don't think he'll be back any time soon, and I'll stop watchlisting now. I'm sorry I couldn't come up with anything helpful here. - Dank (push to talk) 18:58, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

"I don't think he'll be back anytime soon?" Why? Because he made yet another dramatic DIVA display and labelled himself a "banned editor" when he has not yet been banned, and may not be? (Those tags are inaccurate and should probably be removed.) Kumioko's pattern is to go all DIVA, says he's leaving for good, and then come back almost immediately as an IP. After a while, he creates a new account and starts up again. I have no doubt that if he's not banned as a result of this discussion, he will do this exact same thing yet again. The tags mean nothing, and are no guarantee of his future behavior. BMK (talk) 05:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

I just want to clarify something because its important. Bans do not prevent people from editing. They put more work on the community, admins in particular. They make it more difficult to edit and they make it more difficult to create an account. They are not a magic spell, fairy dust or unicorn poop that suddenly makes the individual incapable of editing. So putting your personal attacks on me aside BMK, because no one cares about who attacks me, how or why and they never have, a ban will not "stop" me from editing if that's what I choose to do. Also, its a well known fact that the checkuser program is garbage and can easily be avoided if I wanted to do that. Its also prone to false positives so since I have edited from several IP ranges that would affect the outcome of the result, if you want to ban a bunch of extra editors and accuse them it was me, then feel free. I'm sure you will find several you can add to the list of "Kumioko socks" since you seem intent on justifying your accusations that I am socking, which I am not. Just as I have restricted my edits to those related to this page or relating to this discussion, after this concludes, that will be it for me here. Not because this magical barrier was put in place, but because I choose to abide by it. BannedEditor (talk) 15:35, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Ah! Another unclarifying "clarification". In your fantasy, you may have these magical powers, but, in fact, if you are banned by the community, and "choose" not to comply with the ban, you will be dealt with like any other ordinary puppetmaster. Unless your socks return to actually editing the encyclopedia (something you haven't done in any volume for years), your posts will be immediately identifiable as being yours by their subject matter and style, and your socks would be squelched as quickly as you can make them. Since you clearly wouldn't be satisfied to simply make productive edits, and would inevitably slip into your complaining mode, your socking career is not going to be very successful. Besides that, once you start socking for real, any hope of returning to the community is gone. I guarantee you that most of the "supports" here would oppose your re-entry, as would some of the "opposes" if you took that pathway.

So, please, stop acting as if banning is no big thing, and that you'd be doing the community some kind of favor by adhering to it. You've dug yourself into an extremely deep hole, and you're in serious danger of not being able to climb out again. These pronouncements portraying yourself as in some way a good Wikipedian because you're planning to abide by a ban (if there should be one) are absurd - your ban will be policed the way every other ban is, and unless you're going to abandon the project altogether, abiding by it is something you must do, not something you'd do to be nice to us. BMK (talk) 16:21, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Binky, you are about the last person on this project I need to justify myself too. You were already banned and allowed to come back yourself so you need to just disengage. For your information though, there is this thing called a contribution history and there is a Lab tool that will show my contributions. Anyone can see your full of shit when you say I haven't contrbuted anything for years. I was editing quite actively all the way through September of this year. I had over 10, 000 edits each in June and July, so your accusation that I haven't done any useful contributions are pure lies and show that you are only pushing your own POV and have no reason to be allowed to edit. You are a purely disruptive editor and you are characteristic of the type of editor I have been advocating be addressed. Fortunately you are not an admin but you are still active enough to be a net negative to the project. However I will admit you are right about one thing. Once I am banned I will be banned forever, this community has never been one for forgiveness and frankly I have done nothing requiring redemption. If the community doesn't take the problem of abusive admins seriously and wants to get rid of me so they can continue to ignore the problem then thats fine. I am confident though at some point in the future you also will have a big fat banned or retired banner on your page as well. Its only a matter of time just like so many before you or the last time you were banned from the project. Again though I was an extremely high output editor with a very technical understanding of how the project works. The ban process and the checkuser tool are simply not designed to deal with that 1%. You really need to quite instigating this BMK and move the fuck on and do something useful in the project for once. I really have better things to do than to continue to respond to your lies and general stupidity. Go find a girfriend or boyfriend or whatever your into. Sing a song, build a puzzle, play Xbox, I really don't care, but please disengage from this harassment and go do something else and leave me and this discussion alone. You say I am digging myself a hole but your standing on the edge of that hole and about to fall in. I would be happy to take you down with me but do you really want to go with me or would you rather stay here and continue to be an abusive editor. You cannot push your POV and trash if your banned from the project with me. BannedEditor (talk) 18:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Who is "Binky", Kumioko? And please let me "clarify" your various misstatements of fact. I have never been "banned", I was blocked for using serial accounts, and was allowed to continue editing after a community discussion that took into account my contribution history and the circumstances that provoked me into changing accounts without notification - real harassment that involved my real-life identity. All of this is public information, linked on my user page where it says "My history." I've never hidden it, and have never run away from it. As for your contributions, anyone can look at your pie chart and see just how productive you've been or have not been in the last 11 months.

As for your threats of taking me down with you, the fact that you might actually believe that is just sad. I don't know if you've noticed, but you're not in control here, and my history is not the subject of this discussion, yours is. BMK (talk) 19:16, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Enough trolling BMK, your just embarassing yourself. BannedEditor (talk) 21:13, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

How is BMK's comment trolling, exactly? ⛵ Admiral Caius ⛵ 21:21, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

BMK meets several of the criteria for a troll. Generally though, in this case, he is deliberately and intentionally attempting to disrupt this discussion to push his own POV that I should be banned. We already know, he has had his vote and his say so at this point all he is doing is being a nuisance to the discussion and misusing the process. I hope that helps to clarify. At this point any fool can see that my ban is essentially assured so there is no need for his continued grave dancing just to be a Dick. BannedEditor (talk) 21:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

That's incredibly hypocritical, Kumioko. You champion that you need a new, pointy account to respond to "personal attacks", yet you label anyone who responds to you a "pov-pusher", a "disrupter", a "gravedancer" and a "troll". ⛵ Admiral Caius ⛵ 21:46, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Admiral, I speak freely these days. If you don't like that, me, my attitude or the way I wiggle when I walk then the Arbcom is (---->that way) Feel free to tell it to them. You and BMK can turn this into a full blown Arbcom case. This process has already been allowed to turn into a mockery anyway. I'm done here, its obvious your just here to grief. Now shoo (or fuck off whichever you like less)! BannedEditor (talk) 22:01, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Darkness gathers... --Epipelagic (talk) 23:19, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Children will be children.... Blackmane (talk) 15:40, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Kumioko/"BannedEditor"'s recent behavior

Anyone who reviews Kumiokos recent behavior (starting with the pointy creation of yet another account, BannedEditor) can easily see the problems quickly ematating from his actions. Kumioko's apparent goal is to abandon constructively contributing to Misplaced Pages altoghether in order to pursue any admin deemed "abusive", actions that cannot be described as anything short of trolling. Also intriguing is the threat to continue socking and disrupting no matter what sanctions the community imposes upon them, stating that "a ban will not stop me from editing", "it is a well known fact that the checkuser program is garbage and can easily be avoided" and other such threats. It is obvious that Kumioko has become nothing less than a Wikipedian representation of Statler and Waldorf, albeit with little humour involved. ⛵ Admiral Caius ⛵ 18:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Look, if the admins wouldn't have blocked the IP's and forced me to create a new account just to respond to comments I wouldn't have created it. Its a classic case of putting me into a situation where I can either break a rule so they can have an example to block me or I let them comment without being allowed to defend myself. is this the preferred way to respond? No, I don't like it either. Was the name I chose pointy? Absolutely and its intended to be. But if the admins wouldn't have blocked my IP, I wouldn't have had to create this username just to respond. Maybe you should be asking for the IP's to be unblocked. You clowns keep calling me a sockmaster because you don't want me to be able to respond. You want to continue to be able to insult me and add your personal attacks and me not be able to respond. In the end your just fanning the flames. If you would address the comments by BMK, Nyttend and others who are just instigating the problems and just let people vote Support or Oppose it would be much better and I wouldn't even have a need to comment. I also admit I think its funny that you and a couple of others say I am threatening because I have stated I will abide by the ban. The fact that I am technical enough to get around it should make you wonder why someone with that experience and who has over a dozen pieces of featured content, almost 500, 000 edits would get to this point. But you didn't ask because you don't care and that my friend is the problem with this site. Everyone is out for themselves and there is no concept or intrest in cooperation or collaboration anymore. BannedEditor (talk) 18:33, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

You are rapidly becoming hysterical, Kumioko. You provide no evidence of alleged misconduct by BMK or Nyttend, who have given strong points against you to (compare to your response of "enough trolling"). Also, if you claim to be "technical enough" to avoid a ban, then why did you choose to create the pointy BannedEditor account rather than keep editing with IPs? Because you would be blocked for evasion? Note that all of your previous IP accounts were not blocked for evasion, but for personal attacks, something that you commonly accuse of your criticizers. ⛵ Admiral Caius ⛵ 21:38, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually I am not hysterical at all, I am a little annoyed at the length of this discussion and the general leniency that has been given to the personal attacks and BS levied against me but I am far from hysterical. I am quite calm actually. I would note one thing though; it appears that you have only edited here for a couple months and have a minimal number of edits. Yet as far as I can tell you have an excellent understanding of our terminology and policy. Now I am not trying to accuse you of anything, because you might well be a genius, but it sure gives the impression that you are either a sock of another editor or perhaps an editor who has left and come back under a new name. Neither BMK nor Nyttend have given strong points about anything other than I haven't been particularly nice to them because they are not nice to me. You also seem to infer that it is ok for others to personally attack me yet I cannot tell them to pound sand in return. On the IP issue, they blocked my home IP and my work IP, could I cahnge them? Yes, but its clear that editing from an IP is being used against me so I created an account with a very pointy name. Don't like the name, I really don't care. So as I said to BMK, you had your vote and you've spoken your piece now move along, there is nothing more to see here. BannedEditor (talk) 21:53, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

So, umm, who are you, Caius? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 19:07, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Please ban him for not knowing the difference between "your" and "you're". Thank you. --Roxy the dog (resonate) 19:19, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

And what should become of you for not knowing when to "shut the fuck up"?—John Cline (talk) 23:01, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Please close this

Could someone uninvolved please close the site ban proposal one way or another? It's been open for over 4 days and I don't think there's much left to be said that hasn't been said already. 28bytes (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2014 (UTC)