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About the Map.

I have a newer and better map of the Soviet union that you all will love no doubt!

http://commons.wikimedia.org/File:The_Soviet_Union_and_it%27s_satelite_states_and_allies.png

This map depicts the Soviet Union(Dark Red), with it's satelite states(Red) and nations that were subject to Soviet influence(Bright Red).

I wish to have permission to make this the principal image of the article. Please! :D Keeby101 (talk) 00:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, I for one think that the map in the Soviet Union article should only depict the Soviet Union itself, to keep readers from being confused. Howicus (talk) 00:59, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Anyone else wish to comment/ share their thoughts on this? 24.173.43.179 (talk) 02:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Useful for an article on the foreign policy of the Soviet Union and/or Cold War. I think it would be confusing here. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 03:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Howicus and Vecrumba that this map goes beyond the scope of this article. Also, there is the slight problem that the name of the file is misspelled. It should be "The Soviet Union and its satellite states and allies.png". Note that there are 2 Ls in satellite and that the possessive of it is "its", not "it's". "It's" is a contraction of "it is". --Khajidha (talk) 05:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 November 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the Khrushchev era section, fourth paragraph, second line, change the woman in "...the first human being, Yuri Gagarin in 1961; the first woman in space..." to man because Yuri Gagarin was a male. 99.5.249.219 (talk) 02:09, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Not done:. You're misreading the sentence. "the first human being, Yuri Gagarin in 1961; the first woman in space, Valentina Tereshkova in 1963" are two separate clauses. It does not mean that Yuri was a woman. RudolfRed (talk) 02:58, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Infobox again: "illegal" etc

I see there's renewed action over the words "illegal" and "restored" in the footnote. I can't help but thinking that we're overdoing this. As noted previously, the illegal/restoration theory is not universally held and is ultimately a subjective issue (international law is rarely so clear-cut and is invariably intertwined with politics). Annexation implies likely or possible illegality in any event – we don't need to overlay, for example, every reference to the Nazi invasion of Poland by attaching the adjective "illegal" to it. As for the word "restored", that already appears in the sub-heading for the Baltic states. As ever, it seems this is more about making points and making sure that the WP text lays everything on with a trowel. Simply referring to "annexation" and to the Baltic states declaring "independence" is more than enough to satisfy the generality of mainstream sources and WP verifiability and NPOV requirements. Neither wording would imply the annexation was legal or the independence something that had not been "restored" in some sense.
There's also the outstanding question, never resolved outside of two-editor decree, about how to head up the infobox itself. No one responded substantively to my suggestion that it could be something like "Post-Soviet States" and that we should avoid the term "successor state" altogether, whether applied to all 15 or only to 11, as it means different things to different people and in different contexts. Simply list the 15 under that heading, avoid any sub-headings, and have very brief footnotes along the lines of what we have now to explain the sometimes-noted differences in status of the 15. N-HH talk/edits 10:54, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

And now we have someone else trying to edit-war "Successor/Successor States" back in as applying to all 15. Actually, I don't object to that, as it is the standard header in WP and is probably the most common use of the term in this context too. However, I was actually trying to come to a compromise here after acres of pointless talk page debate and acknowledge the fact that the term successor state is sometimes used in a narrower sense, and hence may be confusing when deployed here. The fact that it can be applied to all but also to one or to 11/12 is precisely the problem. And "Post-Soviet states" is rather obviously not "original research" but a standard alternative term (and one that carries less potential confusion). N-HH talk/edits 12:20, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

I've reverted your change. As I recall you were the only one who opposed the current scheme, I can't believe you are starting this up again after it has been stable for a while. Why can't you simply just let it go? --Nug (talk) 12:09, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

For the reasons that I have explained and that you have consistently ignored. And you haven't reverted my change, you have reverted my change as embellished – in a way that I actually opposed – by a subsequent edit. As you should know, my preference is to avoid all use of the term "successor" states: that represents a bid to both compromise and avoid introducing confusion. I would also remind you that your preferred version has no consensus either, nor is it the "original" version. It was stable for a while after that no-consensus addition because everyone had been ground down over it (and it wasn't me that started up the re-editing of this infobox section but someone else). Why can't you let it go and accept what is, surely, a reasonable compromise? What you're actually asking for is, "Why can't you let me win?".N-HH talk/edits 12:25, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Your reasons you have explained have not been ignored, they just simply aren't as compelling as you imagine them to be. 3-4 months of stability indicates WP:EDITCONCENSUS exists, of course in your mind you see that as "everyone had been ground down over it". Having observed you it seems that you wait months until some does a small edit related to the infobox, such as this, report it here then use it as a pretext for your more wholesale edit with the misleading comment "Tweaks to infobox: removing more contentious and confusing language". Bit more than a tweak and certainly not contentious (due to months of stability) nor confusing. I've reverted you to the last stable version, please present your case here and gain consensus before changing the text.--Nug (talk) 21:47, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Back in August I proposed alternatives to the introduction of the split-labelled list that never, as it seems I keep having to repeat, had consensus either. No one actually addressed those points. However, I did not then simply take it upon myself to implement any changes, or open an RFC or anything, but actually waited to see if anyone already involved did respond. You have now banked that restraint and lack of willingness to edit war against you and Vecrumba as somehow proving "consensus" or "stability" when, as already pointed out, it is nothing of the sort. Once the infobox started being messed around with again – including by you – I took it upon myself to actually do something about the problems.

As to the problems, I can repeat them again for you. The use of labels generally is problematic. The term successors has different meanings in different contexts. Some sources will simply describe Russia as the successor, others the non-Baltic states as successors and others all 15. People such as yourself, including recently, have flipped the infobox between these options – or in fact, in the version Vecrumba cooked up which you are now drilling into the page, another option altogether, wholly unseen in any source AFAIK and hence not just not definitive but outright incorrect, which posits only 11 successors and excludes Russia from that designation. Just avoiding the term altogether or indeed any definitive sub-headings, as I am suggesting, and simply having a main header "Post-Soviet states" – the name of our main page on them after all – is such an obvious solution that it seems odd anyone could object to it or edit war over it. What is your objection exactly? And do you not think there is a rather obvious problem also with labelling Russia with the sub-heading "Continuous with" and then having a footnote that tells us that the Duma at least declared Russia continuous with the Russian SSR, not the Soviet Union? And with your reverting copyediting to the footnote text which, among other things, restored the description of the unrecognised entities as "successor states" when no one calls them that and when they do not appear under the successor sub-heading you are insisting on randomly using for 11 of the actual states? N-HH talk/edits 11:40, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Your concede your original proposal had no support. Your new proposal from August "Post-Soviet states" elicited no support either. It is even more divorced from the documented intent of the inbox, which is to show the status of the emerging states according international law. There is no concept of "Post-Soviet state" in international law when discussing the status of states. "Post-Soviet state" is a term generally used in the context of discussion about countries dealing with some legacy of Soviet rule, like the Russian speaking diaspora. Your new term only brings more confusion as readers will wonder if they were all "Post-Soviet states", why did Russia get that UN seat belonging to the USSR and honour all USSR treaties in force, received properties, debts, etc, while the other states did not. In fact the Russian Duma explicitly declared false the perception of the RF as "merely one of the many successors of the USSR", and you want to perpetuate that false perception and confusion by using "Post-Soviet state".

Let's go through each of your problems you have articulated:

• "You have now banked that restraint and lack of willingness to edit war against you and Vecrumba"

That is a pathetic ad hominem attack, highlighting you lack of genuine argument. The version you object to has been in place since June 2013 and I only made two edits since and Vecrumba none at all, while some 57 edits were made by others since June, many to the info-box itself indicating acceptance of the classification. The only objector being you.

• "The term successors has different meanings in different contexts"

The context of succession/continuation/restoration in the info-box is in the context of international law, as preferred by info-box guide and supported by the sources. This has already been explained to you before, so please stop pretending that this argument hasn't been addressed.

The reason Russia is seen as "continuator" is because that is what reliable sources tells us. Your reliance upon an unsourced phrase about the Russian Duma added back in July to argue the unsuitability of designating Russia as a continuator of USSR is an incredibly weak argument. That added phrase turns out to be misleading as it omits the fact that the Duma declared the Russian Federation to the continuator not only of the USSR, but also of the Russian Empire, the 1917 Russian Republic and the Soviet Russian Republic. Numerous sources corroborate the fact that Russia is the continuator of the USSR:

Dumbery in State Succession to International Responsibility - Page 156:

" the Federation of Russia is therefore viewed as the continuing State of the Soviet Union, which was itself the “continuator” of the Russian State existing between 1917 and 1922"

The Finnish Yearbook of International Law - Volume 2 - Page 164:

"The solution of the property issues also points towards the fact that Russia is the continuator state of the USSR. All the foreign embassies and the property within them, as well as all other such property in third states were transferred to Russia"

Crawford, Brownlie's Principles of Public International Law - Page 427:

"Russia was also accepted by the members of the Security Council as the continuator of the USSR. Russia assumed all treaty obligations and consolidated the debts and property abroad of the USSR "

Huber, A Decade that Made History: The Council of Europe, 1989-1999:

"the Paliamentary Assembly - following the example of the international community, which had immediately recognised Russia as continuator state to the USSR"

Bühler, State Succession and Membership in International - Page 161:

"since the first days of the year 1992 the Russian Federation has consistently claimed to be the "continuator State" of the USSR in all international affairs"

Boisson de Chazournes, International Law and Freshwater: The Multiple Challenges - Page 426:

"The Russian Federation claimed to be the continuator State and declared that all multilateral treaties concluded by the USSR would automatically remained in force."

I could keep posting sources but I don't want to bore you. "A total WP editor invention not reflected in any sources", according to you. What a joke. Oddly you contend that giving readers insight to status of states and differentiating between continuator/successor/restored is somehow more confusing.

However I do agree with you that unrecognised entities such as Abkazia and South Ossetia should not be included. That change was reverted a couple of times by others here and here. They don't belong because those entities were a part of those states already listed as having succeed from the USSR, e.g Georgia, and in one sense those areas are being double counted. So these should be removed in anycase. --Nug (talk) 08:50, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

There is no point posting lots of sources. We know certain terms are used to describe each of the 15 and I have never disputed that Russia is a continuator state in the sense of it taking on the USSR's obligations in many areas. However, we also know different terms are used by different sources and/or in different contexts (I can post lots of sources that talk about the 15 successors and a commentary that states such a designation is the most common). The point is there is no universally agreed categorisation, terminology or definition, therefore we should try to avoid imposing it as best we can. Equally, no, the infobox is not meant to be an exposition of international law, especially not such a gross simplification and hence distortion of it. Worse than that, there is certainly no categorisation that, as a whole, designates Russia as "continuous", 11 others only – excluding Russia – as "successors" and the three Baltics as "restored", whether as a statement of international law or anything else. As I have said, this is your and Vecrumba's invention.

This all kicked off, if I recall, because you wanted the Baltics excluded altogether from a combined list headed up at the time simply "successor states" on the basis of your usual hobbyhorse that this would imply their original incorporation into the USSR was legal. Well, it wouldn't necessarily of course, but letting you have that one, and acknowledging the wider problem with the term, my proposal didn't list them as "successors". All my edit did was remove the sub-headings you inserted and avoid use of the term successors at all, by replacing the main heading with the perfectly reasonable and descriptive "Post-Soviet states". The Baltics remained in a separate sub-group at the bottom, with a footnote explaining the issue there, and for the other states. That dealt with your complaint but with the added bonus of not introducing new problems by suggesting there are definitive, agreed sub-classifications. You haven't explained in any real way what the actual problem with that as a solution to all the concerns from all sides, not just but including yours, is. And btw on the unrecognised entities, I never said they should not be included. Actually I think they should be in the infobox but not under any heading referring to "states"; nor should their footnote refer to them as such. They were in my version but you have now unilaterally wiped them, without any discussion (and misleadingly claimed that was all you were doing in your latest reversion). N-HH talk/edits 13:10, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

I like quoting sources, here are some more:

Hollis The Oxford Guide to Treaties - Page 415

"The Russian Federation officially adopted this view, declaring itself as the 'continuator' and not a successor to the USSR. Even though the continuator concept was relatively novel at the time, the Russian Federation's view was generally accepted by by other states as well as by the UN where the name "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" was only replaced by the new name "Russian Federation"

Gaeta The UN Genocide Convention: A Commentary - Page 485

"In this scenario of separation, we would have one or several successor states, but we would also have a continuator state. The best such example is that of the Soviet Union, which has a number of successor states, but whose legal personality (together with UN membership and veto in the Security Council) was continued by the Russian Federation. In the second situation, however, we would have the dissolution of the predecessor states into several new successor states, none of which would be able to claim continuity with its predecessor, whose legal personality would thus be extinguished. Such were, for instance, the breakup of Czechoslovakia into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, or the dissolution of the former Socialist federal Republic of Yugoslavia."

You probably are aware of the coming referendum on Scotland's independence. There has been plenty of analysis of the implications of this, for example this paper. This analysis examines the potential consequences in light of dissolution of the Soviet Union and status of Russia/Baltics/11 Newly independent states as continuator/restored(or reverted)/successor states respectively. According to this analysis, the likely outcome is that rump UK would be, like Russia, a continuator state. On the other hand, Scotland would have difficulty in claiming preservation of its continuity with the pre-1707 Scottish state because Scotland was never illegally annexed like the Baltics states, thus would be considered a new state:

"Most likely, the rumpUK would be considered the continuator of the UK for all international purposes and Scotland a new state. This has been the most common outcome in the case of separation, as evidenced, for example, by the acceptance of Russia as the continuator of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) despite its political collapse. The fact that the rUK would retain most of the UK’s territory and population and that its governmental institutions would continue uninterrupted would count in its favour. So, importantly, would the acquiescence of other states in any claim of continuity. Since the rUK would be the same state as the UK, questions of state succession would arise only for Scotland."

And goes on:

"Reversion to a previous independent state such as the pre-1707 Scottish state may not be excluded. But it normally depends on conditions that are absent here, such as the unwilling subjugation of the former state."

Unwilling subjugation is a pre-requisite for maintaining the presumption of continuity and hence the possibility to restore or revert the state:

"What these statements suggest is that their formal legal identity of the Baltic states, rather than being extinguished in 1940 and then revived in 1991, was preserved throughout that period. It was significant that Russia’s control, though effective, was tainted by illegality. This places the Baltic states in the same category as the more fleeting cases of illegal but effective annexation mentioned above and suggests that in such circumstances even the passage of fifty years may not displace the presumption of continuity."

Thus this paper demonstrates that the classification of continuator, restored or reverted state, and successor, exists and are discussed together in the one analysis. No synthesis here. So your claim that it is an "invention" basically demonstrates your apparent ignorance on the topic of how states evolve, which the point of representing past and present states in the info-box. Unfortunate that a couple newbies should arrive now, I recall the only other editor to support you was the indef-blocked sock User:Peterzor. Looks like a checkuser may be in order. --Nug (talk) 12:38, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

As noted about 14 times now, we know different sources and different parties use specific terminology in some contexts. I don't understand what you're trying to prove with this wall of text. Interesting though that you're quoting Russia's viewpoint on continuation, when it suits you, having discounted when it doesn't, such as with its view on the status of the Baltic republics. But that's the nature of your pick-and-mix approach and something your last quotes don't resolve: that paper, which is not about the USSR anyway, does not appear to explicitly divide the post-Soviet states into discrete and definite groups of 1, 11 and 3 with the sub-headings you're insisting on.

Anyway, I'm very happy for you keep banging on in this amusing fashion about your asserted superior understanding of international law and continue your overheated bid to rationalise your preferred demarcations here, while glaringly avoiding the wider and more fundamental question one level beyond that, which is actually quite a simple one: why have purportedly definitive sub-headings at all, especially when they are clearly so problematic? Why are you quite so persistent that we simply must have sub-headings? And as for consensus, could you point to the army of supporters weighing in on your side? Cheers. Most of these are rhetorical questions btw. I'm not really looking for your take on the answers or likely to read them anyway. N-HH talk/edits 16:16, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

It's a mischaracterisation to claim I quote Russia's viewpoint on continuation, when it suits me, having discounted when it doesn't with regard to the Baltic states. It is not what I think that matters, but what reliable sources say. Sources tell us that the majority of the international community, except for Ukraine initially, recognise and accept Russia's claim as continuator of the USSR. Sources also tell us the majority of the international community do not accept Russia's claims with respect to the Baltic states and support the view that the Baltics were illegally annexed. Even the view within Russian scholarship is not unanimous. Unlike the consensus in Western scholarship, Russian historiography seems to be divided into the liberal-democratic (либерально-демократическое) camp and and the the patriotic-nationalist (национально-патриотическое) camp. The liberal-democratic camp is essentially aligned with the Western consensus view that the Baltic states were occupied and forcibly and illegally incorporated into the USSR, while patriotic-nationalist camp contends that the Baltic states voluntarily accepted Soviet troops and joined to the USSR via the free will of the Baltic peoples. In other words, the view that the Baltics were legally incorporated into the USSR is essentially a Russian nationalist viewpoint, that's why sock puppets like User:Peterzor, who apparently see you as their champion, come out of the woodwork in apparent support for you.

Turning your question on its head, why not have sub-headings? This is an encyclopaedia after all, so why not have more detail where we easily can (taking up less bytes to boot), why simplify to the extent of obfuscating? What is so problematical about sub-categories? You repeatedly claim different terms are used by different sources and/or in different contexts, but the context here is singular, that of transition from one state to another. Why are you so persistent in demanding a single category, a single category that misleadingly implies all entities emerged simultaneously with equal status? So persistent that after six months of stability you still feel compelled to revert to your preferred version? After all it was you who started this thread using the relatively minor issue of illegality/restoration as an apparent pretext to a more wholesale change to something you proposed four months ago but failed to gain support. These aren't rhetorical questions btw, I do intend on reading your answers. --Nug (talk) 10:58, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

No amount of "notes" corrects the misconception created by the title "Successors" that all states came "after", that is what people take "successor" to mean. Really, what was wrong with the earlier compromise? It was clear, concise, and unambiguous, if somewhat imperfect--pertaining mostly to details of Russia as the continuation state. A single category is oversimplification to the point of being incorrect. Encyclopedias are meant to clarify, not to follow arbitrary imaginary rules. The breakup of the Soviet Union must reflect, not relegate to notes as if minor details, its unique circumstances. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 02:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

What do we need this information in the info-box anyway? Infoboxes are for non-controversial facts. TFD (talk) 19:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, not only is lumping them all into the one category is controversial, it is misleading too. --Nug (talk) 21:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

It's news to me that Russia considered continuation state, Baltics restored states, the rest successor states is, from the standpoint of international law, controversial in any manner whatsoever. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 01:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

The Baltic States have elements of successor states, for example people who emigrated there during the Soviet era are considered citizens, and various agreements made during that time are considered valif. AFAIK no other state has ever been considered to have disappeared and come back to life, meaning some discussion is required. Also, the Baltic States are fairly minor in the overall subject. TFD (talk) 01:47, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Soviet-era emigrants are considered non-citizens. With regard to various agreements made during the soviet period, Peter Van Elsuwege writes: "Proceeding from their basic standpoint of illegal Soviet occupation and state continuity, the Baltic States do not accept the validity of international treaties concluded by the Soviet Union. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania do not regard themselves as Soviet successor states and, therefore, bear no responsibility for the liabilities of this State. On the other hand, there is a presumption that the pre-war treaties, concluded by the then independent Baltic republicsm continue to be in force as long as they have not expressly been terminated. Most countries have recognised this basic position". The Baltic states aren't considered as having disappeared and brought back to life, that's the case with Austria when it was absorbed into the Greater German Reich, but not of the Baltic states. The occupation of the Baltic states is generally compared with the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, in both cases these countries never disappeared, but continued to exist de jure, as sovereign title was never transferred to the respective occupying power. While the Baltic States may well be fairly minor in the overall subject, the fact that Russia is recognised not as a successor, but as a continuator of the USSR is more major, but this is also obfuscated. Your apparent confusion and misunderstanding of these basic facts highlight the need to clearly articulate the status of these countries in the infobox. --Nug (talk) 08:41, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

TFD, we've been over this ground before. Just because the Baltic States couldn't be restored totally completely to their prewar condition does not make them not continuous. "Elements of" successor is utterly irrelevant here with regard to their sovereign continuity in international law, that is, your personal synthesis doesn't trump international law. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 23:56, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, other than our seeming predispositions to disagree first and examine positions later, I really don't understand where my proposal for the infobox (in international law... Russia successor (by treaty), Baltics continuous, rest successors) does not add valuable, concise, information for the casual reader or student. Certainly leaving someone to read the article to glean the same information is the less optimal solution. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 00:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Even the Soviet Union back in 1991 accepted the Baltic states were restoring their independence, the view that the Baltics are successor states of the SU is a more recent manifestation of Russian nationalist discourse. It seems somewhat tendentious that N-HH and TFD would apparently champion Russian nationalist POV over the consensus view found in reliable sources. --Nug (talk) 09:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

"champion Russian nationalist POV?" TFD (talk) 12:46, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Come off it. I'm probably about the only person currently involved who isn't seemingly trying to push some form of political line here but instead trying to avoid explicit labels and instead find the widest possible description, precisely so that we don't tie the infobox to expressing a view one way or the other. We've got some people trying to make it say, definitively, that all the states are successors and others trying to knock out the Baltic states and sometimes Russia too. My position is that we should do neither and avoid the term altogether due to the fact it is used at different times in different ways and that there isn't even unanimity when it comes to the more legalistic interpretation. And, as I keep having to point out to you, with reference to sources, there is no "consensus view" on the use of terminology and/or categorisation. Your pretending that isn't true does make it not true. Finally, as to where we are now, we seem to have a particularly bloated and badly written set of footnotes. That's the right place to briefly explain the complexity but they need to be concise. N-HH talk/edits 11:59, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course there is a political line in attempting to give undue weight to the Russian nationalist POV of the Baltic states being "successors" of the USSR, I guess it is tied up with the fact that many soviet-era Russian speaking settlers ending up stateless after the Baltic states restored their independence. But pretending that Baltic states are "successors" won't change that reality. Misplaced Pages ought to be a reflection of how things are, not what you may wish it to be.

You seem to be suffering a bad case of WP:IDIDNTHERETHAT. As I pointed out to you multiple times, the template guide has a preference for the official successors under international law, I guess because this is an encyclopaedia and the intent is that people may actually learn something. Your argument "there is no 'consensus view' on the use of terminology" and "there isn't even unanimity when it comes to the more legalistic interpretation" is just perverse, reliable secondary sources tell us:

"The Baltic states themselves have taken the stand that they continue the identities of the states existing before 1940. Accordingly this view states cannot be regarded as new states and therefore they cannot be successor states of the ex-USSR. This view has also been accepted by both the international community and the writers of international law."

nor is it in any way controversial, Patrick Dumberry's monograph State Succession to International Responsibility published in 2007 summarises the current mainstream view on page 151:

"The only non-controversial point is that the three Baltic States are regarded not as new States (and not as successor States of the U.S.S.R.) but as identical to the three Baltic States that existed before their 1940 illegal annexation by the U.S.S.R."

You can end your denialism and pretense that no consensus view exists, secondary sources explicitly tell us there is. And you can stop telling pork-pies about your "referenced sources", you've only presented one as far as I can recall and it wasn't very convincing. NPOV is not about giving every fringe viewpoint equal weight and synthesising "the widest possible description", that's called original research. --Nug (talk) 12:08, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

RFC

How shall the infobox look and what shall it mention? Kalix94 (talk) 20:46, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment The purpose of infoboxes is to provide clear, concise and non-controversial information. Listing all the successor states of the Soviet Union and providing details about disputes over whether the Baltic States were successors or restored states is too much information and belongs in the body of the article. So I suggest not using the successor state field. TFD (talk) 21:43, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

What disputes are you imagining? Patrick Dumberry's monograph State Succession to International Responsibility published in 2007 summarises the current mainstream view on page 151:

"The only non-controversial point is that the three Baltic States are regarded not as new States (and not as successor States of the U.S.S.R.) but as identical to the three Baltic States that existed before their 1940 illegal annexation by the U.S.S.R."

So I do agree with you about not using the successor state field in this case.--Nug (talk) 20:10, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

We discussed this a long time ago. The Baltic States have attributes of both revived and successor states. For example, Russians born there are citizens. Oddly, your latest source says that it is not absolutely clear that Russia is the continuator of the Soviet Union, so again the list is ambiguous. And per a comment below, the Baltic States are a very minor aspect of the Soviet Union, and whether they are revived or successor states has almost no significance to this article or for the vast majority of people reading this article. TFD (talk) 09:26, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:V, content is determined by previously published information rather than the beliefs or experiences of its editors. Your belief that Russians born there during the soviet period are citizens is factually incorrect, as the article Non-citizens (Latvia) indicates, thus your view that Baltic States have attributes of both revived and successor states is synthesis and certainly not supported by any reliable source, otherwise you would have posted a cite by now. --Nug (talk) 09:59, 18 January 2014 (UTC).

Your link says two thirds of Russians in Lativa are Lativian citizens. Estonia allowed Russians to chose citizenship, while Lithuania considers Russians born in Estonia to be citizens. Anyway, you provided the source that said the annexation was recognized de facto by many states, including the UK, and de jure by others, and that they have elements of both successor and continuator, while I provided you with a source from the UK government explaining the status of these states. I assume you read those sources, so no need to link them over and over and over again.

Incidentally, the Soviet Union occupied many states during WWII, such as Poland, why should we include these specific states? Under the UK article, we do not include in the infobox the approx 50 foreign states which were once dependencies.

TFD (talk) 21:57, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

"Lithuania considers Russians born in Estonia to be citizens", that is just plain confused. Your contention that post-1991 naturalisation process of immigrants is somehow relevant is just synthesis, as sources show that the naturalisation policy was driven by humanitarian concerns rather than any obligation a real succession would entail. No, your UK source, which discusses the potential succession of Scotland from the UK in light of the experience of other countries including the Baltic states, makes no mention of "elements of both successor and continuator" anywhere, for example:

"Cases of annexation that other states have treated as being illegal are even less apposite to Scotland. The Baltic states may seem atypical in that they apparently reappeared after a period – forty years – that lasted much longer than, say, Iraq’s more fleeting occupation of Kuwait. But if that is indeed what happened, the principle nonetheless rests on the preservation of their identity throughout a period of illegal annexation. It is not applicable to a voluntary union.""

--Nug (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2014 (UTC).

That is one aspect in which the Baltic states can be seen as restored states. OTOH, as pointed out, it had little significance. There was no government in exile to return. The president of the Latvian SSR remained president after independence. It may be that the Baltic states were humanitarian in allowing Russians to remain, but that is not a feature of restored states. The main difference between the Baltic states and the other "successor" states is that the West had recognized them as part of the Soviet Union.

Also, if the Baltic states are not successor states, why list them at all? We do not list Poland, although it was also occupied by the Soviet Union.

TFD (talk) 18:01, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

You are not making sense. So now other "successor" states were not recognised by by the West as part of the Soviet Union? Sigh, you really ought to read WP:Synthesis. --Nug (talk) 10:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Guidance on how an infobox shall look and what it mentions is found in Template:Infobox_former_country/doc. --Nug (talk) 20:05, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
• Comment is this RFC really just about the Baltic states? Personally, I can't understand why calling them successor states is mutually incompatible with them also being restored states. The labelling frankly doesn't really matter, this is a rather semantic debate. Thom2002 (talk) 23:02, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

It is not mere semantics, the template documentation expresses a preference for listing successors as defined "under international law". This is an encyclopaedia and WP:Accuracy is policy, and sources tell us there is agreement by "writers of international law" that the Baltic states are not secessor states of the USSR. But no one is insisting on removing the Baltic states from the info-box, but rather indicate the generally accepted view in international law scholarship with some simple annotation as was originally used in a version stable since June, until recent edit warring and initiation of this RFC by a suspected sock puppet. --Nug (talk) 08:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Your proposal seems emminently sensible then, Nug, and is one that I would support.

this is not only the baltics it also that the infobox uses an orignial construction on Predecessor/Successor syntax, see Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia how Predecessor/Successor syntax shall be used Kalix94 (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Urrr what do you mean exactly? I had a look at the SFRY infobox, what exactly are you proposing for the USSR infobox? Sorry I'm struggling to follow the meat of your proposal. Thom2002 (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

see the png, the current version wrong according to Template:Infobox_former_country/doc under the "Preceding and succeeding entities" section Kalix94 (talk) 20:57, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Kalix94, you have been reported as a suspected sock puppet. --Nug (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Nug, the SPI has not over yet, and whatever the spi rules i still make a good point about the soviet union infobox Kalix94 (talk) 08:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Soviet_Union&diff=591574083&oldid=591428362 changes there to see what i meant Kalix94 (talk) 15:49, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

We have discussed this before on talk before you were banned, and a majority of editors deemed the default template parameters inadequate to handle the complex case of the Soviet Union. --Nug (talk) 19:57, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, this issue seems to surround you and just you, Nug, as you seem to not be able to allow the Baltics to be considered successor states or succeeding.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Incapable of focusing on the ball and not the player? No, the issue is WP:V, reliable sources tell us that the Baltics are not considered successor states in international law, the infobox guide tells us that the preference is to list successors in international law, and annotating the infobox guide in a succinct way to indicate which countries are considered continuous/restored/successors in international law seems the best solution, as you previously seemed to support with these edits, . No one advocating removing the Baltic states all together. --Nug (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

International law is not the issue here. The template only says "succeeded". Nothing about labeling them "successor states" anywhere on Misplaced Pages, and even in the template documentation it's only a suggested guideline and not a hardline rule, so clearly we can treat the USSR as a unique case. And I only fixed that ugly ass formatting half a year ago. Don't say those edits somehow support your side of the argument. You are twisting things into what you think is best and this only shows that you need to be prevented from disrupting this page anymore.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

It is implausible to suggest that you edited the form of the infobox June last year without understanding the content, you were part of the discussion in May about removing the Baltic states altogether. Your edits (at that point the infobox was to a compromise version including the Baltics) came directly after my edits, you could have easily hit the revert button but instead you choose to refine it further. The only disruption I see is your revert before the closure of this RFC and your somewhat belligerent tone. it is not helpful. Yes, I agree with you that the Soviet Union is a unique case, hence the need for annotation, while your treatment is identical to any other country article which is in contradiction to your claim of uniqueness. --Nug (talk) 13:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

• RFC Comment Hi, in case sources describe the successor-state issue as controversial, then the infobox is probably not the right place to approach it and it should be handled in the body of the article. If only editors say the issue is controversial, then as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, it isn't controversial and the states can be listed in the infobox, IMO. Cheers, --Dailycare (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
• This whole debate seems to surround the fact that Nug will not allow the Baltic States to be considered "successors" to the Soviet Union due to their declarations of independence. Removing him from the equation should solve this unnecessarily WP:LAME dispute. The template doesn't even say "successors". It says "preceded by" and "succeeded by" which is as neutral as possible. Nug's persistence in this (I recall gaining his ire previously because of this perennial dispute) is problematic. I've instituted the version which apparently is in use on other Soviet era articles that was apparently promoted by a sockpuppet and instituted the use of the template's "today" parameter to contain everything about the footnotes.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 21:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

But apparently not sufficiently WP:LAME for you to jump in and revert to a banned sock puppet's preferred version, a version that most people agree is inadequate, before this sock puppet initiated RFC is even concluded. Many observers would perceive your revert as somewhat at odds with your earlier edits, in support of the version most people accept. --Nug (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of that being a sockpuppet of a banned editor, it is in fact a better way to treat his page because it does not need a whole lot of unnecessary formatting just because you keep insisting that the Baltics have to be mentioned separately when the template does not insist what you think it does. Template:Infobox former country#Preceding and succeeding entities may say "For most cases, the main and/or official predecessor/successor (under international law) is sufficient" but clearly the Soviet Union is a unique case which means we don't need to abide by those rules. People going to this page do not need to see such an extensive coverage of the politics of the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the infobox. They just need to know what came before (the Russian SFSR, et al.) and what came after (the RF, the Baltics, the -stans, etc.), and we may as well also say what exists today (including the 4 limited recognition regions). And no. Only you perceive that point of view based on my edits from June 2013. Throughout this debate you have been putting words in my mouth without even having the common decency to notify me that this discussion has been on going. I left last year it because you are so bothersome to deal with. The fact that you have been using me to your advantage disgusts me.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 03:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

?? Why would I notify you of an RFC started by somebody else, the last time you edited this article was last June, you are hardly on my radar and in any case that would be canvasing. No less bizarre is your claim I have been using you to my advantage or have been "putting words" into your mouth "throughout this debate", all I did was present evidence of your apparent previous editorial support. These kinds of wild accusations hardly exhibits the collegiate behaviour expected here. Since where you an authority on what people "need to know"? Template:Infobox former country#Preceding and succeeding entities saying "For most cases, the main and/or official predecessor/successor (under international law) is sufficient" implies that this is the general expectation of readers is to see successors under international law. Yes, the Soviet Union is a unique case, thus the annotation indicates the uniqueness. Your version takes up way more space making the infobox a mile long and double listing states using both the "successor" and "today" parameter. --Nug (talk) 13:19, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not going to continue to respond to you in two separate threads. It's just getting annoying. So this covers your post in the main thread as well as this subthread.

You should not have been misconstruing my fixing of your formatting of the infobox in June 2013 as an implicit agreement with you on how things should be treated. I was simply tired of arguing with you, as will soon happen again. I looked in the archives and found multiple instances of you referring to the edits that I had made as me agreeing with you on this matter and you never bothered to contact me during that time.

The Soviet Union is a unique case in that we do not need to stick with the "international legality" that you have been pushing for. Any and all nations that were formed from what was once the Soviet Union should be considered as "succeeding" the Soviet Union, whether or not they are considered "successor states" by international law. This means that I agree with the 15 member model and the much simpler treatment that I had implimented in the past few days, as well the use of the today parameter, which is what is used elsewhere on the project for these former countries and is being used to show any current nations (and their flags) that claim self autonomy, whether recognized or not and ot host the footnotes. We should be presenting this information as simply as possible to the reader who will look at the infobox to see what countries came into existence with the dissolution of the USSR. They do not care about the technicalities in the matter and omitting anything or separating them is not useful to the lay reader. To be honest, the infobox could lose the footnotes.

There.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:47, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you kidding: "I looked in the archives and found multiple instances of you referring to the edits that I had made as me agreeing with you", that's just BS, I only referred to you once previously in drawing a conclusion any other reasonable person would with respect to your edits. Your claim that any and all nations that were formed from what was once the Soviet Union should be considered as "succeeding" the Soviet Union has one big flaw, the Baltic states were already formed before the USSR was even created. A reader who will look at the infobox to see what countries came into existence with the dissolution of the USSR will be misled because the the Baltic states already existed since 1920. In fact, the notion that the Baltic states only came into existence with the dissolution of the USSR is considered Russian nationalist POV. And again, how do you know readers "do not care about the technicalities in the matter and omitting anything or separating them is not useful to the lay reader", it is obvious that you do not care but don't project this onto the reader. This is an encyclopaedia after all, readers come here to be educated and informed. --Nug (talk) 21:22, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

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