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Happy Holidays!

Vacation is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Happy New Year!

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Sensitive subject. Wee Curry Monster talk 16:42, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Speedy deletion query

You deleted a page created earlier title "We're Coming" without giving an explanation why.., — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kayfigo (talk • contribs) 07:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi there. I deleted the article because it meets one of Misplaced Pages's criteria for speedy deletion. Specifically, the subject of the article (the song) is not notable, and the artist who wrote it does not have a Misplaced Pages article. It therefore qualifies under criteria A9. Hope this helps. Regards Basalisk ⁄_berate 09:34, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Medical Doctor

Might want to see where Medical Doctor is redirected to. Just saying. I agree that they're not synonymous, but the United States has spots for intended for M.D.s (Doctor of Medicine), but these spots may also be obtained by physicians with an international equivalent degree such as the Bachelor of Medicine/Bachelor of Surgery degrees (MBBS/MBChB). The term medical doctor is frequently misused as only for M.D.s and is used in contrast to MBBS, MBChB, or DO, but medical doctor is nothing more than a broad term for physician. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, that was shoddy. I agree (I think) - I was hoping to link to a page on physicians in general rather than restricting the sentence to MDs only. Basalisk ⁄_berate 22:53, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Trying a rewrite. Let me know what you think. We can figure out a compromise if my revision to make the sentence clearer is unclear or inadvertently changes the meaning. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 23:03, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Query

Basalisk, I'm curious to pick your brain ... According to your view, which of these are personal attacks and violate NPA?:

1. "You're a liar."
2. "I request you be productive and truthful here or elsewise go elsewhere."
3. "You're a fucking idiot."
4. "Stop being a fucking idiot."
5. "Stop behaving like a fucking idiot."

(Thanks.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

1, 3, 4 and 5. Basalisk ⁄_berate 23:38, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Well that's very interesting (because, I know there are other admins who would disagree with you and 4 and 5 on the basis "those are descriptions of behavior". And if I requested that *you* be truthful or stop posting to my attention, duh, you might feel different about it. (What if I appended to each & every exchange I would ever have with you?: "Basalisk, I'm requesting that you be truthful or else go elsewhere." -- how would you like that?) Here are a couple more:

1. "Your Talk page is filled with lies."
2. "Your comments were filled with grave dancing ."

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:04, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Nothing that you just said is actually true. Just because there are editors (myself included) who entertain a distinction between statements that are a description of behaviour and statements which are attacks on character does not mean that you "know admins" who think that those specific statements (4 and 5) are not personal attacks. I consider them violations of NPA because they are written solely to insult, they don't describe actions at all. "Your talk page is filled with lies" is obviously not a personal attack. "Your comments were filled with grave dancing"="you were grave dancing" which is a description of behaviour and so obviously not a personal attack (whatever else it may be). As for how I'd feel if you were to say those things to me, we've had this discussion before, and my response hasn't changed - I literally couldn't care less what people on Misplaced Pages say about me. If you give a toss what people on the Internet think of you then you need to grow thicker skin. The people in the real world don't give a shit about your feelings. Basalisk ⁄_berate 00:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Nothing I just said is actually true? Huh? I've seen several discussions where editors (I think admins too) have asserted a PA exists only when the insult under consideration is on the editor not behavior of the editor.

• How can you say a statement like "Stop being/behaving like an idiot" is "not describing actions"? (The presupposition obviously is that some exchange preceded the remark, and the commenting editor was refering to comments by the other editor.)
• And how is "Your Talk page is filled with lies" "obviously" not a personal attack?! (Doesn't it imply without a doubt the Talk page owner has been lying on it?)
• And claiming someone is gravedancing (on a RL suicide victim) is "obviously" not a personal attack? (Corbett said if that wasn't a personal attack then nothing is. Do you think he was so very wrong about it?!)
• Last, if you are saying (are you?) that WP editors s/n give any care to what other editors say about them, and you think they should grow thicker skin, then whatever in the world are CIV and NPA about (why do they exist)?!

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:22, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

You may have had discussions, but I doubt there have been any times when someone has specifically made the statement you've quoted in either 4 or 5 above and an admin has specifically said it is not a personal attack. That has never happened, and so you're merely speculating on what some hypothetical people may say if that were to happen. So, like I said, your assertion is not true, because you cannot demonstrate that it is. In terms of talk page lies, even if the statement that you quoted did directly imply that the "owner" of the talk page had been doing the lying (which it doesn't) there's still nothing wrong with accusing an editor of lying. That is not a personal attack. I don't care what EC thinks of personal attacks. I have a great respect for his ability as a writer but frankly his opinions on what constitutes appropriate communication with the people around him are worthless. Finally, I think if some Misplaced Pages editors got out of their parents houses every now and then, faced the real world and learned to act like adults then we wouldn't have so many people losing their shit about being called a liar or a gravedancer or stupid or whatever, and then we wouldn't have to argue about the utility of NPA or CIV either. This is all I have to say on the matter. This has basically stemmed from me asking you not to make personal attacks. I did so because I don't want you to feel, if you were to carry on making personal attacks and get into trouble for it, that no one had tried to warn you. I've done that and I have nothing else to say. Good to chat. Basalisk ⁄_berate 00:39, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

That's a bit confusing ... you classified "You're a liar" as a PA, and also saying there's still nothing wrong with accusing an editor of lying. That is not a personal attack.!? (Can you explain how those are significantly different?)

Here are a couple more (PA or not?):

1. "Show some common decency."
2. "Good luck integrating with humanity someday."

Ihardlythinkso (talk) 00:57, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

The query examples were mostly paraphrases of real examples I've seen. Here's a real example for you: "I didn't call you an asshole, I asked you not to be an asshole — kwami (talk) 08:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)" Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:09, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for thinking about me, Basalisk. (I did so because I don't want you to feel, if you were to carry on making personal attacks and get into trouble for it, that no one had tried to warn you.) As mentioned I've already walked away from even potential dialogue w/ that user any more, and explained why. Also, you know, I'm not stupid, I'm aware that my comment to his attention was PA when I made it -- my feeling that it was ethically justified because of his shitty comments to me. (Once an editor accused me of name-calling Elen of Roads and Dennis Brown "asshats" and "idiots" when I never did any such thing. When I complained to an admin those false accusations crossed an ethical line, he replied that under WP they were simple incivilities nothing more. That showed me how inept CIV was early on. Do I get to say that I have "secret information" that Kevin Gorman raped his daughter and set fire to his mother?! I highly doubt it. But what is the WP mechanism for identifying false accusations, weighing their maliciousness, and enforcing CIV accordingly? That kind of evaluation process does not exist as far as I'm aware, on the WP. Everything is left up to individual admin interpretation and mood. Thus uneven enforcement. Thus resentment from those at the other end of uneven enforcement. Like Eric.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:22, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh! (I would have had no problem if someone accused me of a name-call I did make. It was the fabrication/false accusation of those name-calls that I resented. Guess how the ANI cesspool handled my complaint? By claiming I was "BOOMERANGED" because I once templated that Jasper Deng should stop being a WP:DICK, and that he was being "insufferable". The leading admin in that ANI justified the "BOOMERANG" evaluation by claiming that those things said to Deng were calling him "horrible names".) I'm not sure the logic in that, since I wasn't complaining about someone name-calling me. That is why I call ANI a cesspool of irresponsibility, and will never open a thread there under any circumstance. Ihardlythinkso (talk) 01:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Well if we're arguing semantics, calling someone a liar is an attack on their character, implying that they habitually lie. Pointing out that someone has said something that isn't true isn't a PA. I just have one more thing to clarify - it doesn't matter if you think PAs are "ethically justified". You're not allowed to make them. You're not the guy who gets to decide what is and is not acceptable - the rules apply to everyone. Basalisk ⁄_berate 10:27, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

You didn't rate the last two examples (PA or not?; BTW, both are real examples from the mouths of admins). Accusing someone of not being truthful, without willingness to back it up, instead deleting threads and kicking off one's Talk, is indistinguishable from a smear. (Same as accusing someone of harassment, without backing it up.) "The rules apply to everyone." That is not correct, and you know it. (What you mean is, they should. In practice, they don't. That's self-evident. Numerous editors know it. It's a big issue on the WP -- uneven enforcement. In fact some of the most guilty for making PAs are admins. And none have ever been sanctioned for it. Uneven enforcement is seen as selective enforcement. Selective enforcement can be unfair since it is often a cover to carry out grudges. And you know that happens; if you don't, I certainly do. And that is abusive. So editors end up with not much respect for the uneven and selective and abusive admin CIV enforcement "system". This was all in place long before I signed up to be editor here. But it wasn't immediately evident to me as newbie, but I have at some point learned.) Why do you pick on me for warning, but not Eric? (Because he's a "big guy", and I'm a "little guy"? Picking on the little guys while avoiding the big guys is a classic method that bullies use. Or don't you think so!?) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 10:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I haven't got anything to say. We're just going round in circles. I return to my original message - don't make personal attacks. You're not allowed to behave that way on Misplaced Pages. That's not my rule, it's Misplaced Pages's rule. If you carry on, you may be blocked. I don't have anything else to say about the semantics of comments others have made, it's got no bearing on what you have said. If you've got issues with things people have said to you I suggest you take it up with them. Regards Basalisk ⁄_berate 13:30, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

If you've got issues with things people have said to you I suggest you take it up with them. Oh that just makes all kinds of sense doesn't it, Basalisk? This whole thing of you stalking and threatening me at my Talk is over a cold edit on Kevin Gorman's Talk in response to his offensive remarks. Take it up with him?! How about you take a look at this: And in addition to that (didn't you read me when I told you at least twice?) I have no intention of trying to dialogue with that editor since I see the endeavor as pointless and futile because I have concluded there are severe compentency issues going on there. (So what you propose I do is basically crazy-making.) Ihardlythinkso (talk) 14:48, 23 February 2014 (UTC)