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Kafkasmurat

Gilabrand

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gilabrand

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

IRISZOOM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 06:59, 10 December 2013 He removes (rm) a reference to one respected human rights organization (B'Tselem).
2. 15:25, 26 December 2013 Rm info about Israel's assasination attempt on Khaled Mashal, which threatened the treaty, but keeps info from Arutz Sheva and what they wrote got misrepresented and other one used a fact.
3. 17:31, 23 January 2014 It is "anachronistic" to write that Mohammed Assaf was born or his parents are from "Gaza, Palestine" but does not apply to the part about "Beersheba, Israel". He also rm that Beit Daras was depopulated, now only captured.
4. 09:35, 8 January 2014 This was brought up in other AE case. Now again, both in the lead and below, rm that there was a massacre in Saliha. He says the sources are not RS. Falses as sources were Danny Rubinstein in Haaretz and Benny Morris.
5. 17:36, 23 January 2014 Rm info about damage from Israeli operations, change the reason of the halt (and exaggerates it) from being the blockade to Hamas' takeover, and diminish what the source say about homes needed.
6. 07:16, 10 February 2014 Rm info about a series of paintings on depopulated villages, Yibna being one of them. Without basis, he rm info about military assault and depopulation. Cherrypicks when only mentioning that they fled, but not why, before assault.
7. 17:18, 3 February 2014 Rm Palestine. Gets reverted, then adds a fact tag as a last attempt to get Palestine removed. Explanations were given why it is there.
8. 07:57, 10 February 2014 Not only about turning in the weapons but also accepting protection by Haganah. Rm the part about the soldier firing and Zarnuqa villagers getting expelled. Adds much about weapons and that they returned them but now what they had to do and endure before they turned over their weapons. Rm who ransacked and rm info about demolition.
9. 20:34, 10 February 2014 Rm that the girl also (apparently) got killed.
10. 21:04, 10 February 2014 Rm that it was depopulated. When I reinserted it, he added it was "later depopulated". True but why not write that first? His similar actions otherwhere makes me suspicious here.
11. 19:28, 12 February 2014 Rm that it was depopulated, then only half-reverts when told he has confused them. That still gave the view that it was a current village.
12. 10:16, 20 January 2014 Israeli expulsions etc. gets dimished.
13. 10:01, 21 January 2014 Does not even seem to have the source he claims, because later he realized where it came from and then starts to diminsh the source. Anyway, he misrepresents what Israeli forces did. He got reverted, after this he starts with misrepresenting and diminishing where the claims come frome (only a comic book, where it originally came from is left out). Keeped pushing this view a month after too.
14. 17:51, 28 January 2014 Unaccepted addition of "terrorist".
15. 16:45, 24 February 2014 Rm sourced info that it is known for protests against Israeli forces and in the same time, he adds a image of Palestinian getting Israeli medical care. Changes to IDF's wording, that is "crossing" from "checkpoint". Rm that Israelis made the raid and who died gets unclear. He is doing the same thing, including one on the same checkpoint, on Commons, where we take descriptions from.
16. 07:13, 26 February 2014 Rm from lead that Israelis captured it. Current localities gets changed to something according to Walid Khalidi. This does not need to be attributed but by doing it, statement gets diminished.
17. 22:58, 26 February 2014 Rm refugees got interviewed, now it is only about about a villager and rm that the refugee said that Yishuv (Israeli) forces besieged the village and that it caused a lack of food.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Blocked a dozen times. See also this, this and this.

See also the latest case here at AE against Gilabrand and the case at AN. In both cases, Gilabrand was informed by Georgewilliamherbert on the heightened scrutiny.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think it is clear that Gilabrand is very biased. During the last month, it has been worse than usual and much of his edits have been on depopulated Palestinian villages. Since then, I have taken a look on his edits because, as evidenced above, he keeps making unjustified edits on articles. He also made massremovals on List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict, including one after an editor wrote in talk page why it is not acceptable and an another editor reverting him. In the talk page about Khirbat al-Tannur, he said for some days ago that "it is time to look closer" on "'Village' lists drawn up by Palestinian advocacy sites have been circulating for years now, and copied by everyone and his grandmother without question". Maybe that explains his edits but "looking closer" does not mean making such biased changes. But of course, it is more than his changes on depopulated Palestinian villages. It is about the whole topic area. It can not continue like this.

One thing I am happy for is that he is editing about a well covered topic. Just imagine if he was doing this to a much lesser known topic.

It is not about content dispute but about conduct violations. I will now start shortening it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The length should be acceptable now. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it is clear how Gilabrand's conduct is unacceptable. He constantly removes or misrepresents claims so that it favor Israel ahead of Palestinian and other viewspoints. Like as showed above, he removes that villages were depopulated, makes up why they were depopulated or cherrypicks, diminish Israeli military actions such as in Abu Ghosh, Yibna and Khan Yunis, changes a sentence from being that the Israeli blockade (imposed after Hamas's takover) to Hamas' takeover being the reason why reconstruction of homes on destroyed by Israel (that also got removed) was halted, removes that a girl was killed, removes that Israeli forces blew up homes in a village, adds "terrorist" label, removes that there was a massacre, who attacks etc. The POV pushing is big and clear. I see it is as very unfortunante if he can continue like this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It is an issue with NPOV, which I think Gilabrand fails to adhere to so many times in this topic area. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

If the constant removals of relevant and sourced information and other violations such as cherrypicking showed here is not seen as punishable, I do not know what is then. But if this is allowed, then we all have to accept it and start play the same game. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

*

I am surprised by your statement, Georgewilliamherbert, and the others. I can not understand how you think it is content disputes, cleanup edits etc. I am surprised because I think the pattern is clear. Maybe some is unclear now that I had to cut down my request. For example, the diff I gave on Yibna is now only one though I wanted to show different info. I gave that info but it is not clear it is different edits. Like this one and this. Explanations are given above. This is the same problem type of problem everywhere so I ask you to look at the edits again and think if the constant removals, misrepresentation and cherrypicking is not unacceptable. Otherwise, I am afraid it is like Sepsis II said. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Greyshark09, first of all, the evidence here is strong. Three editors and one admin agree with me. Secondly, this is my first AE case against Gilabrand. Do not make up things. I expect you to retract your claim about "wiki hounding" and to the next time, get the facts straight before making such serious allegations.

I am not a POV pusher, and certainly not a "extreme" one, and even if your examples were right, saying that this is something close to removing, misrepresenting and cherrypicking info, as shown above, is not accurate. But your examples is silly and mostly because it is about you making unilateral changes and then getting reverted and then you complain that others do not accept it. And while Palestine Remembered may not be a RS, it is used many times here, because most of it is based on people like Sami Hadawi and Walid Khalidi. Even Gilabrand has used it. Secondly, as told many, many times, to put a link in External links does not require it to be a RS. It is there on nearly every article (and was there in this article too before Gilabrand removed it twice and I told both in the the talk page and edit summary why it can be there) about depopulated Palestinian villages and many others. It is nearly 700 articles.

Zero0000 also brought up the issue about Palestine getting replaced. I have written several replies there and I also said that it is you, Greyshark09, who are mostly doing it but you never joined the discussion. The fact is that the region is called Palestine. This is how it is referred to by the the vast majority of of scholars. No one is referring to the State of Palestine here. The article itself is called 1834 Arab revolt in Palestine. The Arabs there are called Palestinian Arabs, which I reinserted and not "Palestinians" so again, do not make up things. Until 2010, this is what it was also inserted in the article. It is the same thing with 1915 Palestine locust infestation. You on the other hand unilaterally changed that and other articles. You have gotten reverted by atleast another user (Zero0000) on another article. When you have support to change it, do it. Now you have not and even the titles are clear on this. They are not named like that of an accident. But you are not caring about that and are imposing what you think is right and then complaining that others are not accepting your changes.

The same thing with the other example. Here it is you again changing something. You did it here too. You changed from "West Bank" to "". This is wrong for two reasons. One is that when clicking on something visible like that (read about piping), a reader expects to go to the page about that. Secondly, nearly all articles state West Bank respective Gaza Strip. Both of them were created in 1948 so when you say that we could add "Jesus too", you are making a straw man. You would maybe have a case if I had changed to Palestinian territories (created in 1967, though it refers to the West Bank and Gaza Strip) or State of Palestine (created in 1988). Maybe you could add "under Jordanian/Egyptian occupation" before/after this but this and "West Bank/Gaza Strip, under Israeli-occupation" is very rarely done when stating birth place etc., which is on the contrary to what you claim. But this was not what you did, as you are trying to portrait it by saying that it was changed from "born in Jordanian-occupied West Bank" to "born in the West Bank" when it was the same thing but different link. Again, if you are trying to build up a case, be honest and do not make up things. It is silly to see you complaining because you are getting reverted for changes you do not have any support for. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Ubie the Guru, an allegation and no support? It was sourced in the infobox, which Gilabrand and edited so he must have seen it. Furthermore, the removal of that it was depopulated was one of several wrong things he did on Zarnuqa. I advice you to read again. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I will shortly answer your comments, Ubie, but keep in mind that these diffs are just a part of mine and HJ Mitchell's analys. The incident with Mashal is known and the info from AJ doesn't come from the film maker but a retired Jordanian general who was the manager of the king's office then. And again, you can't remove this but keep info against the Israeli side given by the settler agency Arutz Sheva (Israel National News). Other change here mentioned above.

Here is the link to what you ask for.

It is clear that it refers to Israeli forces making an offensive against the Egpytian forces who were the defending part. There is nothing POV in saying that but if you think so, discuss or reword it instead of removing it and it doesn't matter if it is only the lead. Other change here mentioned above. You have confused the part about the edits on Kalandia and Raml Zayta. With regards to Khan Yunis massacre, that many were killed does not only come from Benny Morris but also residents and UN. Morris calls it a massacre. Other change here mentioned above, like this.

I think the pattern is very clear and this is not something new as evidenced by his block log. Just to give you an example of this problem, I will tell you about what happened yesterday. I was correcting ISBN errors to a book from Morris and edited 20-25 articles. When I was doing that, I found two instances where Gilabrand had edited the page and made these typical changes. One was in 2011, where he changed to "according to Walid Khalidi" and he removed "Palestinian". The other one was from last year, where he removed "depopulated". --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Greyshark09, it is interesting that you ignored to take back your unfolded claim about "wiki hounding" and are now again discussing my conduct, while still ignoring to comment on Gilabrand, though HJ Mitchell was clear that you should file a separate claim for this. You speak about my conduct as very clearly wrong so why are you not going ahead? Is it because you maybe think it is safer to bring it up here instead of filing a separate complaint and risk backlash, as you want to happen here against me despite my evidence being strong? No matter what, you have been told about how to go forward.

I am not "clearly more pushy" and this is not an "editor disagreement". This is about an editor who is making changes such as from:

According to UNRWA several of the camp's residents have lost their homes as a result of operations by the Israeli military. UNRWA began reconstruction efforts in the early 2000s, but work has largely been halted due to the blockade imposed by Israel on the Gaza Strip following the Hamas take-over of the territory...

to:

UNRWA initiated construction projects in the camp in the early 2000s, but work was halted by the Hamas take-over of the territory...

Protesting against that is not only right but also important. These type of changes don't develop Misplaced Pages but makes it less neutral and accurate. Constantly making such changes is why a sanction is correct. --IRISZOOM (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Gilabrand

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gilabrand

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

I think Sandstein's instructions are unfortunate. The point here is the pattern, and without a significant range of instances and a thorough explanation it will be harder to see the pattern. If the OP cuts it down as instructed, it might well look like just a content dispute. The post at present does a good job of showing excessively tendentious editing, something that AE ought to deal with particularly in regard to an editor like Gilabrand who has a long history of it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The tendentiousness and POV-pushing is there for those who want to see it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert:: What do you think of IRISZOOM's example just above (diff here)? Note the edit-summary ("ce") -- thoroughly deceptive. This sort of thing is absolutely typical of this editor's engagement in the I/P topic area. I appreciate your concern about not wanting to tilt the balance towards people editing in that area from a different POV -- but surely this means that anyone who systematically does this sort of thing from a different POV needs to be dealt with similarly, rather than simply allowing it to carry on as at present. (And of course I'm perfectly happy to have my own editing scrutinised in those terms.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sepsis

It's obvious that Gilabrand consistently abuses wikipedia to further her POV through misrepresenting and removing reliable sources, removing facts that look poor on Israel, labeling, denialism, placing sites in incorrect countries, etc, but it's also just as obvious that AE has given up on stopping such editors. Sepsis II (talk) 23:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Alf.laylah.wa.laylah

I hope the administrators will take the time to look into Gilabrand's problematic POV pushing. It's there in practically every edit related to Palestine. For another example, this one from earlier today, see this article move of List of Palestinian people assassinated by the Mossad to List of Palestinians allegedly assassinated by the Mossad with the edit summary "no proof". Of course there's proof. Most items on the list are sourced. The sources say the people were assassinated by the Mossad. After the move they're not "people" any more (that's not such a big issue) and they're "allegedly" assassinated. This is representative. I could add to the extensive list provided in the original request for enforcement with many more such examples. The policy they violate is WP:NPOV and the method by which they violate it is well-explained in the essay Misplaced Pages:Civil POV pushing. If the POV pushing isn't clear from what's here, though, I don't guess more will make it more clear.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Greyshark09

Frankly it looks to me IRISZOOM is wiki hounding Gilabrand once again, as this is her second or third complaint without any strong evidence, while she herself is an extreme POV editor, which doesn't care much over wikipedia conventions. For example IRISZOOM is using PalestineRemembered as a source, while it was long ago considered as non-reliable; she is making massive edits to insert Palestine and Palestinians retroactively into history without specific reasons and without sufficient sources, like renaming the pro-Ottoman Arab clans of Nablus, Al-Quds and Halil to "Palestinians" who revolted in "Palestine" in 1834 (which obviously was an Arab Peasant rebellion is Southern Ottoman Syria and little to do with modern Palestinian nationalism), renaming the Ottoman administrative Syrian provinces into "Palestine" here once again. If i see this wiki-hounding by IRISZOOM going on further i will take a deeper look on this possible abuse myself.GreyShark (dibra) 23:01, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Here is another one by IRISZOOM - Rami Hamdullah turns from "born in Jordanian-occupied West Bank" to just "born in the West Bank", while we clearly tend to indicate nationality at-birth. I guess with same logic IRIS might tag Jesus as born in the "West Bank" as well. This is an ideological question of how much Palestine we should see in history and to what extent - IRISZOOM is clearly no the one to ask this question for a neutral answer.GreyShark (dibra) 23:12, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: the sanctions of ARBPIA were created in order to reduce edit-warring and create a more neutral wikipedia as a result. ARBPIA hence should balance views to create an NPOV version; banning a user for his/her views without strong reasons (edit-warring, extensive removal of material) is actually against the concept of ARBPIA. The one who is clearly more pushy in the described editor disagreement is actually IRISZOOM, who is very frequently reverting other editors on ARBPIA articles to the preferred POV version, which can be easily interpreted as propaganda - per ARBPIA the editor who issues topic-area complaint should also be sanctioned in case of violation. Hence, according to WP:ARBPIA rule, IRISZOOM might as well be sanctioned for massive reverts and tendency to edit-war.GreyShark (dibra) 05:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by ZScarpia

@Greyshark: Even in 1834, Palestine was the common name in English for what you are insisting should be called Ottoman Southern Syria. As for the edit of the Rami Handallah article, you should look at it more carefully: Iriszoom did not change it as you describe. You should probably also read up on the statuses of the areas controlled by Israel and Jordan between 1948 and 1967. Neither area was considered to be 'occupied'.     ←   ZScarpia   05:05, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by IZAK

Agree that this is about a content dispute that nevertheless and obviously drives the anti-Israel and pro-PLO-POV-pushers crazy -- rather than edit they come to this forum. It seems that since User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) is just working a lot harder than her critics they take the easy way out and try to belittle her hard work and are trying to "cut her off at the knees" with WP:LAWYERING here. So I'll just repeat what I stated earlier but it is just as true: In a nutshell User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) is being subjected to not so subtle WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CYBERBULLYING by editors who express a POV that can be summed up as waving a little flag called "WP:IDONTLIKEIT". The accusations against her are also a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED as well as an abuse of WP:LAWYERING.

There are so far few eloquent English speaking Israelis and Jewish editors to do the tough job that Gilabrand does -- to give an alternate explanation and defense to too much blatant pro-PLO, Pro-Arab anti-Israel pushing on WP that is mind-numbing and boring if not outright stupid in its results.

Bottom line: This entire debate is too hilarious for words because of course every editor has a personal POV but as responsible editors we adhere to WP:NPOV as best we can. There is no denying that User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) works to present an Israeli perspective but it is within acceptable bounds. It is absurd to accept that "all" editors who edit I-P topics should sound and act as if they are working for Al Jazeera (hey guess what guys, this may come as a shock to you, but: Misplaced Pages is NOT Al Jazeera  !) or as hired PR flacks for the PLO or Hamas or Hizubbullah or the Ayatolas of Iran etc.

Editors such as Gilabrand are obviously loyal Israelis expressing the standard Israeli view on these subjects cited by the complaint and they will always exist. Duh!!! Just as they cannot be dismissed or ignored or exterminated in the real world by Israel's enemies, they cannot be dismissed or ignored by punishing good editors on WP who come on board who should be debated but not crushed as this complaint is trying to do.

WP cannot be "holier than thou" than the real world by trying to crush any editor who comes along wanting to insert a healthy debate and alternate views that exist out there in the world, that no amount of WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CENSOR will achieve.

It only cheapens WP to crush and humiliate Gilabrand rather than discussing points rationally. And it is a cop-out to take this short-cut rather than debate her point by point, that comes across as a "cyber thought control policeman" acting to enforce "UN resolutions" when WP is neither part of the UN nor does it belong to any majority or minority be they Arabs or Jews. WP has to be fair to all because it is an online ENCYCLOPEDIA and it is not a place to wage WP:WAR. Yes, editing WP takes skill and it is a tough job, but to take out the hatched and try to proverbially "kill off" your opponent rather than engaging in proper intellectual debate and work on the technical and policy aspects of WP editing is disgusting to watch, and soon there will only be anti-Israel editors running what is already a pretty well-known debacle and degradation as more and more (like a doomed sinking Titanic of verbal huckstering) WP takes on the default role as a front for the delegitimization of the Israeli POV (yes it's a POV, just as the PLO has POV and Hamas has a POV).

Okay, so let's imagine, tomorrow Gilabrand is banned or blocked forever. Does that make WP a better place? Will all the critics be happy talking to themselves now that political correctness and groupthink are enforced? It would be yet another Pyrrhic victory that only silly small-minded people could enjoy. Gilabrand is not an "ogre" -- she is a friend of WP as hard to believe that some here may find that to be, and she can be engaged on equal terms. She is smart and knows her facts, and just because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT it is no reason that she should be taken down. WP needs Gilabrand and more editors like her. IZAK (talk) 15:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Ubie the Guru

Take #8 where Gilbrand is reprimanded for removing the allegation that Zarnuqa was a depopulated village. If you go to the article you see that there is no supporting source for that, so in fairness he was correct. The anti-Israel slant in that article is clear. It seems that in Misplaced Pages editors who are negative to Israel are considered unbiased and those who are positive are considered biased. Considering the massive amounts of disinformation that is out there that is negative toward Israel, it would be a good thing if the information in Misplaced Pages were seriously scrutinized to see if it is actually true, so that slanders against this small and beleaguered country were not encouraged and spread by Misplaced Pages. The amount of information/propaganda that is out there that is anti-Israel is analogous to the Nazi propaganda against the Jews in the thirties and forties, and as in the thirties and forties, is taught at Universities. During the Nazi years, anyone who stood up for the Jews against the Nazis was considered a "Jew-lover" and was in threat of joining the Jews in the camps. Misplaced Pages is getting a reputation of being a propagator of this anti-Israel mindset. Today every bigot in the world has access to media to spread their disinformation and propaganda around. I hope the administrators consider this position before they topic ban yet another hardworking editor whose sin is to see the I-P conflict from an unpopular (but possibly accurate) perspective. Ubie the guru (talk) 16:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I decided to take the statement by Arbitrator HJMitchell and see if my thesis held up, by investigating his specific differences that he used to accuse Gilabrand of biased editing. His first difference refers to "removal of material unflattering to Israel."

• "this edit removed material regarding an assassination attempt by Israel (cited to Al Jazeera)" The first the Al Jazeera source is describing a movie, presumably a documentary, made by an Arab film-maker. True or not, has the film itself been vetted as fact? Has this film whose story is being told in Al Jazeera an appropriate historical source for an article on alleged treaty violations in the Israel-Jordan peace treaty? Arguably not.
• I was unable to find the removal of sources with respect to a sentence which mentions 'an Israeli settlement in an occupied territory."
• "this removed all mention of controversial actions by Israeli forces in the 1948 war." This is the sentence that was removed: "It was captured by Israeli forces in the offensive Operation Yoav against the defending Egyptian Army during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War" This could be considered a controversial edit. Was Operation Yoav an offensive action against the defending(?) Egyptian army? The police fort which had been under the British was now "occupied" by the Egyptians according to a later section. The Negev had been part of the UN's partition plan area assigned to a Jewish state. If my history serves me right, Egypt invaded Israel in 1948 and so would be the offending army, Israel the defending army, no? The original edit tries to imply the opposite, though it is not based on any source. Also, Gilabrand's edit does not remove all mention of controversial actions by Israeli forces in the 1948 war, only in this one edit in the lead of the article.

HJMitchell says:

• "more removal of material unflattering to Israel: mention of alleged depopulation by Israel is removed; as is the statement that the village is the location of ant-Israel protests. "Israel" is removed from a statement about a controversial action by that country." Yet when I read the original sentence, this, "Raml Zayta was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. According to Benny Morris, the causes and date of the depopulation are unknown," is not significantly different from this (Gilabrand's sentence): "Benny Morris writes that the causes of the village's depopulation and when it occurred are unknown.<ref name=Morrispxviii>Morris, 2004, .</ref> "
• "a "massacre" by Israeli forces becomes an "alleged massacre"; " Israeli soldiers shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants in one of two massacres" becomes "...were shot in the search for people in possession of arms". This statement by HJMitchell does seem to presuppose or accept Morris' assertion of the fact of two massacres when according Haaretz, "Israeli historians dispute these figures. 'It's a big exaggeration,' said Meir Pail, a leading Israeli military historian and leftist politician. 'There was never a killing of such a degree. Nobody was murdered. I was there. I don't know of any massacre.'"

While I was unable to find several references these I did find are arguably an attempt to be accurate and fair to Israel, instead of only to the Palestinian Arab side in this conflict. As you continually block and ban so-called pro-Israeli editors you will understandably eventually get a field totally dominated by anti-Israel propaganda, thereby literally becoming a part of the problem and adding to the conflict by putting your weight only on one side of the see-saw. Ubie the guru (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

HJMitchell says "I note that you dispute my interpretation of individual edits, but the point I'm making is that the pattern in Gila's edits is problematic. I'll happily listen to arguments that I'm wrong, but just re-hashing individual diffs isn't going to do it."

A 'pattern' is made up of individual edits. You claim that Gilabrand's 'pattern' is pro-Israel and that this is problematic and seem to be urging a topic ban. To make that determination you must look at individual edits and ask yourself if indeed these edits (eg the ones you used to condemn) are in fact pro-Israeli and if so, are they in fact untrue or worded in some way as to imply some untruth? Could you be seeing this out of your own prejudice, as we all tend to do? Is a pro-Israel bias defacto wrong; and if so is an anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian bias defacto wrong? If so, then the edits of opposing editors should be equally scrutinized for such bias, especially at the time they are attempting to topic ban an editor. To the pro-Israeli editors on Misplaced Pages it is clear that the anti-Israel editors view AE as a formula to rid Misplaced Pages of the virus (as they see it) of pro-Israel-bias editing. There is a highly entrenched group of anti-Israel editors on Misplaced Pages. They are very vocal, bring numerous AE's against both new and older "opponents," and vote administrators in or out based significantly on their expressed viewpoints in this conflict. This is not empty rhetoric on my part. I can provide evidence if required. I hope you will consider this because it is only a matter of simple fairness to both sides. If you ban one perspective or point of view, then Misplaced Pages will become (as many already say it is) a vehicle for propaganda for the other side only. It is in the tension of both points of view that the facts will come out and the truth will be discernible. Ubie the guru (talk) 20:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Yambaram

Looking at all the selectively picked diffs provided by IRISZOOM, I only found 4 of them to be somewhat problematic. Considering the fact that Gilabrand has made thousands of edits in this very heated topic area, where every little change may look like a huge POV-attempt, in my judgement I actually find his/her edits rather constructive, even in most of the examples provided by IRISZOOM here, who is a user I'll not elaborate on now. So while he/she is evidently supportive of the so called Israeli narrative, I think it's absurd to expect perfection from such editor, and Sepsis definitely doesn't have a case for a topic-ban on Gilabrand.

Regarding a few comments raised above: Sepsis, I think you should have been referring to yourself as well when you said "AE has given up on stopping such editors", because as previous cases have shown, your edits are extremely POV-pushing with regards to the I / P area. Alf.laylah.wa.laylah, your example is ironically bad. An article cannot be named "List of Palestinians assassinated by the Mossad" if it hasn't been absolutely proven that these people have been assassinated by the Mossad. You said "Most items on the list are sourced". Really? So if most 'items' are sourced (by some independent organizations/websites), that entitles all Palestinians listed there to be considered as people assassinated by the Mossad? Well, not only was Gilabrand's edit okay, it was necessary. Any objective editor would agree that the article should indeed be renamed. See this article for example. And then read Misplaced Pages's guidelines again, please.

Nevertheless, we must make sure Gilabrand and other editors for this matter are more cautious and careful with their edits, and therefore I think a warning of some kind or even a short block should be implemented, as admins shall decide, in order to deter this editor and other editors (well, maybe even including me) from future possible edits that may violate the Misplaced Pages's neutral-editing rules. -Yambaram (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Nishidani

Well I've tried to stay out of this, - one gets the impression that any comment in an AE action is read tendentially in terms of where the editors are coming from, and thus, since all are putatively POV-pushing partisans in administrative eyes, no contributor's comment is evaluated as anything other than a power-game. That's pretty depressing. I'd much prefer that any of us, whoever, might be dealt with harshly according to severe rules of conduct. As it is, bad editors cause time-consuming grief: one has to trail them esp if hyperactive and 'mop up'. Two administrative remarks are just, I think, inappropriate.

• (a) 'We previously decided that a slant absent other disruption was OK for Gilabrand.'

I.e. At a minimalist readng, Gilabrand can do what a significant number of editors from both sides refrain from doing, because their reading of what policy allows one to do with articles that are reliably sourced is restrictive. More largely, and operationally, she alone has been given a free pass to mess up normative editing procedures in the I/P area by wilful removal of RS, pro-national rewriting, misleading edit summaries, suppression of facts,etc.

• (b)'I don't want content disputes in troubled areas by sides picking off editors.' I can't recall, in several earlier cases, of my ever asking for Gilabrand to be chased off. She has been a productive ce writer. But she is a habitual eraser of properly sourced material in order to push an Israeli POV. I and several others may see things differently, but there is a tacit rule we can't erase information if it is RS-based, except under very exceptional conditions. If one does, one goes straight to the talk page and sort the problem out, which Gilabrand almost never does. Gilabrand tampers persistently with RS (her 'ce' appears to consist in rewriting without actually consulting the sources, and that is the difference. I can't see anyone 'picking her off'. I see her constantly, day in day out, stepping over a fine line between comprehensive article sourcing, checking and finding new or better ones, and copyediting that systematically removes RS in order to 'disappear' anything she diapproves of as inappropriate for Israel's image. The technique used in the edit-summaries is repeatedly deceptive.

For the record here's my reading of the first 5 diffs.

• (1) edit summary ‘advocacy site not RS’ at Jordan Rift Valley

This is pure deception ‘The singular’ ‘advocacy site’ refers to one of the two sources, Americans for Peace Now, not to (B'Tselem). The former is an advocacy site, and must not be used. But Gilabrand also removed with it (B'Tselem).the B’tselem source here, with the other, which is not an advocacy site, and everywhere used in the I/P area. I.e. she used a pretext to elide an RS under cover of removing another. 10 seconds googling would have told her the data here are widely attested in usable sources.

So the edit summary was deceptive, and the effect was to remove an impeccable RS by sleight-of-hand.

• (2) On the articled Israel–Jordan peace treaty, there was a section: ‘Alleged Treaty Violations’, which Gilabrand summarily removes as ‘off-topic’. There is nothing alleged about ‘treaty violations’. It is a well-sourced historical fact. No one familiar with the facts would challenge it.

It wasn’t off-topic. It was sourced reliably, and the sourcing could be improved, and the section expanded. P. R. Kumaraswamy , ‘Israel, Jordan and the Masha’al Affair,’ in Efraim Karsh, P. R. Kumaraswamy (eds.) Israel, the Hashemites, and the Palestinians: The Fateful Triangle, Frank Cass & Co, London 2003 pp.111-126. ‘Amman saw the attack not only as a violation of Jordanian sovereignty but as a violation of the 1994 Israel-Jordan peace treaty.’

• (3)

Edit summary ‘ce; anachronistic.’ The ce fixed a serious error. At the same time it (a) failed to control the RS (Benny Morris 2004, since that source has no pagination, and should have been supplied in revision). Had she checked Benny Morris p.256, she would have realized that he mentions the village was ‘captured and depopulated’ in a scorched earth operation, precisely the details she opts to elide from the text. Such details are not ‘anachronistic’ since the depopulation of Beit Daras is not an ‘anachronism’. It is true that you can choose to remove as excessive details from the lead, but Gilabrand’s pattern of editing is to erase all mention of massacres, evictions, deaths with the ‘neutral’ voice of ‘captured by Israel’. . .(silence)

• (4)

The edit summary ‘ce; not RS’ is again wholly deceptive. For while copywriting, Gilabrand removed a key historical fact concerning an Israeli massacre, documented by Israel’s foremost historian of the era, Benny Morris, and by Israel jounalist Danny Rubenstein . This is widely accepted in Israel (Eyal Benvenisti, Chaim Gans, Sari Hanafi (eds) Israel and the Palestinian Refugees, ‎Springer/Max Plank Institute 2007 p.121)

• 5

Edit summary.’ ce’

Nope. Source falsfication combined with failure to fix the link. The text she saw read:

According to UNRWA several of the camp's residents have lost their homes as a result of operations by the Israeli military. UNRWA began reconstruction efforts in the early 2000s, but work has largely been halted due to the blockade imposed by Israel on the Gaza Strip following the Hamas take-over of the territory after battles with rival faction Fatah. UNRWA states that at least 10,000 housing units are in need of reconstruction.'<ref name="UNRWA"/>

Gilbrand writes:

UNRWA initiated construction projects in the camp in the early 2000s, but work was halted by the Hamas take-over of the territory. UNRWA envisaged the construction of least 10,000 housing units.<ref name="UNRWA"/>

What has she done here?

The text she produced (a) elides housing destruction by the IDF (b) the blockade of building materials is lost from view, giving the impression Hamas might be responsible for failure to build ('work was halted by by Hamas takeover.' I.e. Hamas blocked UNWRA, not Israel)(c) the key UNRWA word reconstruction, implying building accommodation to replace housing destroyed by IDF operations is replaced by construction, as if this was some new real estate project starting from zero. The overall effect is to make Israel’s hand in events invisible, and imply the whole situation is autochthonous. This is the original source she distorts

. RECONSTRUCTION OVER THE YEARS, MANY OF THE REFUGEES LIVING IN KHAN YOUNIS LOST THEIR SHELTERS IN ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES OPERATIONS. PRIOR TO THE IMPOSITION OF THE BLOCKADE, UNRWA HAD COMMENCED A SIGNIFICANT RE-HOUSING PROJECT TO ACCOMMODATE ALL THOSE WHO HAD LOST THEIR SHELTERS. HOWEVER, THE BLOCKADE PREVENTED UNRWA FROM BRINGING IN CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS TO COMPLETE THE PROJECT, LEAVING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT PERMANENT SHELTERS. UNRWA ONLY RECEIVED PERMISSION IN 2010 TO BRING IN THE MATERIALS TO COMPLETE A NUMBER OF HOUSING UNITS FOR REFUGEES WHOSE SHELTERS WERE DEMOLISHED YEARS AGO. UNRWA ESTIMATES THAT IT MUST CONSTRUCT A MINIMUM OF 10,000 SHELTERS TO RE-HOUSE REFUGEES CURRENTLY LIVING IN UNACCEPTABLE CONDITIONS AND/OR WHO HAVE LOST THEIR HOMES AS A RESULT OF THE CONFLICT.Nishidani (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• 6

edit summary.’ off-topic commentary’

Again, deceptive summary. A paraphrase of a source is not ‘commentary’, which implies WP:OR. It is a reproduction of sourced content. It is not a legitimate POV slant to remove obviously relevant information given in the cited source. On the village of Yibna it is not ‘off-topic’ to write:

Palestinian artist Sliman Mansour made Yibna the subject of one of his paintings. The work, named for the village, was one of a series of four on destroyed Palestinian villages that he produced in 1988; the others being Yalo, Imwas and Bayt Dajan.<

when the source, Gannit Ankori Palestinian Art Reaktion Books , 2006 p.82 reads:

‘Another series of four works from 1988 relates explicitly to the lost homeland through the titles given to eachy work by the artist. Mansour named each composition (Yalo, Beit Dajan, Emmwas, Yibna) after a Palestinian village that had been destroyed by Israel since its establishment in 1948. Thus, art became a way of resisting the eradication of Palestinian history and geography,’

It is not a 'content dispute', but a refusal to allow content that one dislike. To rewrite this as

Palestinian artist Sliman Mansour named one of his paintings for the village.

Is a major impoverishment, suppressing the whole point about why Mansour did that series. You get a meaningless factoid that begs explanation. The whole point of Mansour’s paintings was to evoke a past that Israel had erased. And Gilabrand appears to think her job or mission is to erase any mention of that Palestinian past.

• (7)

I think it premature on wiki terms to replace West Bank with State of Palestine. The edit is POV, but so is what it reverted, arguably. This should not consitute evidence for AE.

• (8)

An Israeli newspaper report cited in the fundamental work by an Israeli historian on the conflict states that ‘a soldier fired with a Sten gun at three people (one old man, old woman and a child)’. The original editor retained the detail. Gilabrand removed it. Conent dispute? No. In her version we are given the impression that 'Women, children and the elderly were evacuated to the nearby village of Yibna’.

So again, this 'ce' turns out to falsify history. Gilabrand has cherypicked the source and so remoulded it that ‘women, children and the elderly’ are evacuated. They were, but not all. The source says at least some of them were not evacuated, that one of the elderly, two women, and a little girl were apparently murdered by an Israeli soldier. By suppression the detail, she 'humanizes' Israel's narrative even when Israel's finest history has no problem with the full details.Nishidani (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• (9)

edit summary. 'ce for poor English' Ce it is. Unfortunately again, Gilabrand has not checked the source (when it would have been in favour of her POV to do so, since Morris writes ‘appear’ ‘apparently’ and does not write, as both she and the earlier editor did, that these are facts. p.258, but also n.777 p.306)

I said this at the other case. As any talk page analysis of the major articles will show, editors on both sides generally agree that rigorous source-control, googling for as much RS material as possible, and discussion on the talk page are integral to (a) making reliable articles in the I/P area and (b) determining content by consensus. Gilabrand here again, works fast as a copywriter, but is not examining the source, or trying to improve article reliability and comprehensiveness.Nishidani (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• 10

Edit summary ‘‎History: a mile away’ i.e. Burayr was not the site of the kibbutz Bror Hayil but a mile away.

WP:OR. (a) Amira Hass,Drinking the sea at Gaza: days and nights in a land under siege, Hamish Hamilton, 1999 p.150 writes ‘Burayr where Kibbutz Bror Hayil is today' (b) Morris 2004 p.371 writes that Bror Hayil was an outpost established near the village of Burayr’, sufficiently close for the villagers to shoot at its construction workers (thus not ‘a mile away’), and then on p.374 Bror Hayil is said to have been ‘constructed’ in Burayr'.' (c) The same point, that Kibbutz Bror-Hayil is in Burayr with is made by Aryeh L. Avneri,The Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land-Settlement and the Arabs, 1878-1948, (1984) Transaction Publishers 2009 p.220 (who also adds that 1,000 dunams of Burayr land had been bought by Moshe Smilansky in 1934).

These details are easily gathered up. Gilabrand simply didn' check the source, and in her haste to rewrite everything, didn't waste time doing what we editors are supposed to do, check in RS. Again, editors are left to mop up after her. Not a content dispute, but WP:OR against what at least one of the page sources states, confirmed by several others, rightly or wrongly.Nishidani (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• 11 re Al-Ras al-Ahmar.

Edit summary = (ce; add)

She was shown to do this in the lase case, i.e. say she is adding while at the same time she subtracts a key point. What did she add? That the village was ‘conquered’. What did she remove? That the village was depopulated (as Morris notes it was pp.482-3).

In principal one is not obliged to add stuff one dislikes if one reads it in RS. As a rule, however, one has no right to remove stuff in an article that is grounded in RS which another editor has verified. Morris uses the verb ‘conquered’, and he uses the term ‘depopulated’. Gilabrand adds ‘conquered’ and removes ‘depopulated’. I.e. she is altering a balanced text to ‘slant’ it into a one way narrative shorn of any fact or detail that might suggest ethnic cleansing took place.

• (12) Abu Ghosh

Several points in the ce are spot on: removing excessive use (3 times) of the word friendly’, for example. But in rewriting

During the early years of the state of Israel the village was subjected to repeated searches by the army and anyone who had not registered as resident in November 1948 could be expelled.

As

During the early years of the state, military searches were conducted in the village to remove non-residents.

That, to an historian’s eye, damages the narrative by the elision of a specific detail that was of great importance at that time, i.e.the dating by which ‘infiltrator’ was distinguished from ‘resident’. Still, this is not an AE problem considered alone. It's just evidence that Gilabrand enjoys her now acknowledged right to 'slant' things-

• (13)

Edit summary ‘Ce according to source’-

Adds ‘alleged massacre’. But the source does not say the massacre is disputed. The source right under her nose, again Benny Morris, says the massacre happened-

Some were probably killed during two massacres by IDF troops soon after the occupation of the Strip. On 3 November, the day Khan Yunis was conquered, IDF troops shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants in the town.

That one late source challenges what several specialist historians state as a neutral fact is a matter of WP:Due regarding the sceptic's fringe view, arguably. It is not a warrant for introducing 'alleged', unless at least one makes a good case for that on the talk page, which Gilabrand failed to do.Nishidani (talk) 21:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• (14) Adds terrorist

This is in the source, one of dozens available (Ynet has a middle-right POV slant). Yet, as an old-hand Gilabrand cannot but know,:-

The POV of Hamas is that they are ‘martyrs’ training camps’ (many sources)

The Israeli right wing POV is that they are ‘terrorist training camps’.(many sources)

Misplaced Pages’s standard neutral voice says neither (except with legal convictions for terrorism (Khalid Duhham Al-Jawary), or a politically motivated massacre is universally defined as terroristic (Baruch Goldstein) ). They are training camps for militants. We don’t choose sides. Most editors in the I/P area observe this convention. Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• (15) Removes a source critical of the Palestinian leader and the PA which notes that

'The Kalandia checkpoint is best known as a flashpoint between Palestinian protestaters and Israeli security forces,’

and uploads a shot of Israeli ambulances taking Palestinians to Israeli hospitals. Both of these are true.

The intent is to erase any information from one side, expressive of conflict under the occupation, and highlight the humanity of the other side. Why both elements, reflecting all sides of the reality, cannot coexist side by side, is onscure. From my reading of WP:NPOV, one does not erase sourced information that is negative for an actor, while adding sourced information that is positive for that actor. Gilabrand's editing in the the Israeli ambulance image is in itself, perfectly correct. Editing out the Palestinian aspect of it being a flashpoint for conflict changes her addition into a piece of PR-engineering. I would not remove the image. It should be balanced by some matter which says that at Qalandia, most of the people regularly shot or gassed by Israeli troops during demonstrations there and elsewhere are treated in Palestinian hospitals, in the field, or at Ramallah, Nablus etc. In that sense, her edit unbalances, and is provocative.

This is not an either/or world, but a 'this-but-also-this-world'. Gilabrand can’t see that.Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• (16) Iraq Suwaydan

‘The village was destroyed.’ By whom? The 'by whom?' has been excised (It was captured by Israeli forces in the offensive Operation Yoav against the defending Egyptian Army during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.)

The edit impoverishes the text and creates a mystery not resolved in the body of the article.

• (17)

Edit summary:’another name’ (This doesn’t explain what she actually did)

The original text ran:

'Raml Zayta was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. According to Benny Morris, the causes and date of the depopulation are unknown,'

I.e. it was depopulated 1947-8 but the specific date (month, week) is unknown.

Gilabrand rewrote

Benny Morris writes that the causes of the village's depopulation and when it occurred are unknown.(Morris, 2004, [http://books.google.ca/books?id=uM_kFX6edX8C&pg=PR18&dq=raml+zeita&lr=#v=onepage&q=raml%20zeita&f=false p. xviii)

This is an obfuscative edit, for which there is no warrant in policy or good practice. Morris has (not as Gilabrand’s edit has it on p.xviii, but p.xvi) Raml Zayta in a list dealing with Palestinian villages abandoned and depopulated (for 6 different reasons, where ascertainable) in the war of 1948. If we take Morris, as she does, the date (1948) and circumstances (Israel-Palestinian civil war) are contextually obvious, and they were given in the previous version. Once the year and circumstances are cancelled the main body of the text becomes meaningless. Some Jews (sometime presumably between 1945 and 1992) came along and told the villagers to go away, and some died on the road (traffic accident?). She’s made the war disappear, the army disappear, the circumstances disappear. And there is absolutely no reason for her doing this, unless she wishes to erase any mention in this or other articles that the 1948 Palestinian exodus ever took place.

Worse still, in the source (Rosemarie M.Esber, Under the Cover of War, The Zionist Expulsions of the Palestinians,2008. Arabicus Books p.297) we have, a date is supplied. This is not just Gilabrand's fault, but of the previous editor. The oral history of survivors of Ramle Zaita recorded by Esber (published 4 years after Morris's book) clearly fixes the first weeks in March 1948 as the date when the 'Zionists' began to beseige the village. The actual assault took place on March 15, when the threats recited on our page apparently took place. Once more, a few seconds googling for the details would have solved the mystery ('According to the villagers' oral memories, the expulsion took place on March 15, 1948'). If she had troubled to check the source, she would certainly not have twisted Morris's words to suggest we haven't the foggiest notion of the time, date, circumstances or actors involved. But editorial laziness or insouciance to comprehensive reportage is not an indictable crime for AE. Twisting Morris to make out even he doesn't known this occurred in 1948 is however deplorable. Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

GWH. Thanks. I make a principle of not tracking other editors, or examining their contribs. I don't see Gilabrand's edits often, except on the few occasions where her ce takes place on one of my 800 watchlist pages. If you wish me to examine say her edits for February to see if the pattern is wider, I will, however. She is a very good copyeditor, I repeat. But she is not interested in assuring that articles are evenly balanced. To the contrary. As a result, some unfortunate has to watch her every I/P edit, or some mechanism should be devised to ensure that she does not persist in skewing by removal firmly-sourced RS material bearing on the Palestinians. Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Roger Davies

I've formed no opinion on the actual editing here but I am concerned about an alleged accommodation to allow "slanted" editing. How does this square with core policy where it states: is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it?  Roger Davies 17:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Result concerning Gilabrand

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This complaint is excessively long (2700 words) and contains, at first glance, diffs of edits that appear to reflect content disputes. The arbitration process cannot adress good faith disagreements about content. The request should be cut down to the required size (500 words) and be limited to diffs that clearly show the violation of a Misplaced Pages conduct rule, such as vandalism, edit-warring, personal attacks or (excessively) tendentious editing. If that is not promptly done, the complaint may be dismissed out of hand. Gilabrand should not feel obliged to respond to all of this overlong complaint.  Sandstein  20:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• I agree the length is excessive, and I'll admit I only skimmed the prose. The diffs, though, give me the distinct impression that Gila has carried on regardless since the last time she was here, despite the advice she was offered by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs) (who closed the AE thread), Debresser (talk · contribs), and myself (see the last three sections of this oldid from Gila's talk page. Since then, Gila has been to ANI, where she was cautioned for other conduct that was a continuation of the sorts of issues that led to the AE thread. I think a topic ban is necessary, otherwise Gila will continue to carry on regardless, and the ensuing noticeboard threads alone will be an entirely avoidable time sink. Gila makes constructive and valuable edits to articles about Israel and Israeli culture in general, but her every foray into Palestinian topics ends up with a noticeboard thread, many of which have resulted in sanctions, as evidenced by Gila's extensive block log and repeated entries in the log at WP:ARBPIA. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• You may well be right that Gilabrand's editing is problematic in some manner, but I can't come to that conclusion based on the evidence submitted here. Even in shortened form, it is a list of diffs the complainant disagrees with (perhaps legitimately) on content grounds, but with little or no explanation of why they represent misconduct, such as an indication of which Misplaced Pages conduct rule they allegedly violate. As presented, I'd decline to act on this request.  Sandstein  21:58, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

  I'm also not seeing anything terribly problematic. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• On first impression, most of the first half of the edit diffs seem to be ordinary cleanup edits, ordinary content disputes, or something that the original cited sources should confirm or deny (for example, teenager "raped and killed" vs "raped" - cited to Woods - what does the source actually say?...). However, the list move seems problematic. There are sources for the 2/3 of the list entries that I have spot-checked so far. The sources could be wrong, but the sources say "were assassinated by" not "were allegedly assassinated by". The sources state it as fact. That by itself does not rise to actionable, but probably should be moved back. The last half of the edits I have not yet checked. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• None of the edits, in and of themselves, rises to the level of sanctionable misconduct, and—viewed in isolation—it would be very easy to dismiss them as content disputes or other matters that are not relevant to AE. However, what the initiator has not managed to convey is that there is a pattern of edits by Gilabrand, which—taken as a whole—clearly show that she is pushing a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine POV. For example:
• Removal of material unflattering to Israel:

• this edit removed material regarding an assassination attempt by Israel (cited to Al Jazeera), but left other alleged treat violations (those allegedly committed against Israel), and indeed strengthened the wording of one such allegation from "Article 7 notwithstanding" to "in violation if Article 7". Most of the material Gilabrand edited is not supported by the source, whereas the assassination attempt (the only part which Gilabrand felt was "off-topic") is.
• this edit removes sources (including an Israeli NGO) for a sentence which mentions an Israeli settlement in an occupied territory.
• this removed all mention of controversial actions by Israeli forces in the 1948 war.
• more removal of material unflattering to Israel: mention of alleged depopulation by Israel is removed; as is the statement that the village is the location of ant-Israel protests. "Israel" is removed from a statement about a controversial action by that country.
• a "massacre" by Israeli forces becomes an "alleged massacre"; " Israeli soldiers shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants in one of two massacres" becomes "...were shot in the search for people in possession of arms". Prefacing such words with "alleged" is arguably a constructive edit, but by contrast, Gilabrand is only too happy to label Hamas a "terrorist" organisation. Also, "men" become "militants".
• Similar watering down or removal of unflattering material about Isreali forces here, as well as replacement of "refugee" with "villager".
• Removal of mention of an alleged murder by Israeli forces, addition of "reportedly" to discredit unflattering claims about Israel, all under the edit summary "ce for poor English" for an edit that was clearly going to be controversial
• removal of statement that Palestinians had lost their homes as a result of Israeli operations; removal of mention of Israeli blockade.

• Removal or derogation of mention of Palestine:

• this one removes references to "Palestine", "Gaza Strip", and "refugee camp".
• "Gaza, Palestine" → "Gaza"

• That's as much analysis as I have time for at present, but I think it clearly shows a pattern of removing or diminishing mentions of Palestine (which is, at best, controversial) and removing or diluting material that is unflattering to Israel, particularly alleged misconduct by Israeli forces or alleged negative repercussions of Israeli actions or policy, such as with regard to occupied territories. Note also Gilabrand's block log, which is full of AE blocks for the same conduct, showing that this is clearly a long-term pattern. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Hm, discussions about the neutrality of individual edits are a content issue, but a pattern of editing Misplaced Pages only to make articles read more favorably towards one side of the conflict violates WP:NPOV as a conduct rule. If you conclude, based on your review, that this is the case here, which I can well imagine, then a topic ban would be appropriate.  Sandstein  09:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

That is indeed my conclusion, and I think an indefinite topic ban is necessary, but I'd like to leave it for another day or two to see what others have to say and to see if any other uninvolved admins want to weigh in. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Ubie the guru:, I note that you dispute my interpretation of individual edits, but the point I'm making is that the pattern in Gila's edits is problematic. I'll happily listen to arguments that I'm wrong, but just re-hashing individual diffs isn't going to do it. Also, you're remarkably familair with Misplaced Pages for someone with four edits to their name; please log into your main account. @Greyshark09:, @IZAK:, the conduct of Gila's opponents doe not excuse her own; if you want to discuss the conduct of other editors, please file a separate request against name individuals; I will happily evaluate it with the same open mind as I have this request, and I will personally sanction anyone whose misconduct is brought to my attention, but sweeping assertions against a large group of editors are not relevant to the request against Gilabrand. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The conduct of everyone sets a background level of tolerance on a given subject matter. When does innocent exiting become slanted to one side, when does a slant become editing to advance a particular POC, when does POV editing become disruptive.

We previously decided that a slant absent other disruption was OK for Gilabrand. Or, tolerable to the community. There was a specific name-calling claim after that which was ambiguous but only burned up AGF margin in my mind. My question - has anyone posted a diff demonstrating worse behavior since the prior decision than what we decided was suboptimal but tolerable?

I am not convinced. I am convincable, but not so far.

There is a line out there, but I don't want content disputes in troubled areas by sides picking off editors. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Everybody: Please keep your comments concise, on-topic, and restricted to whether or not Gilabrand's conduct is acceptable. Again, if you want the conduct of others examined, please file a separate request against named editors, providing diffs. The next person who posts assertions without providing evidence will be blocked.
• @Ubie the guru: unless you log into your main account, I will block you; I, for one, will not have experienced editors evading scrutiny (or indeed evading sanctions) by pretending to be new editors. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:11, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I would like to thank Nishidani for the much better analysis with context.

Regarding my comments above and Nishidani's interpretations, I think you misunderstood. Slant is not "editing to advocate a side only". Slant would be, editing in proper Misplaced Pages form and intent, but say 2/3 of the tough calls on copyediting, reliability of sources, etc. coming out on one side rather than another. Much of what was presented appeared to be slant, but you have rightly called out some things that go beyond that once you explain the context better.

Regarding picking off editors in contentious areas, some people in this area HAVE clearly been trying to do that, directly or indirectly. That does not mean you are or were. The better context you specifically provided here was more illuminating than others' analysis of diffs. I am particularly curious as to how often Gilabrand is deleting reliable sources, particularly in the context of an edit whose edit summary or main thrust is something else (i.e., where it might be credibly felt to be an attempt to hide removing the source). A careful campaign to remove RS which are critical of Israel would be disruptive. If Gilabrand has done that once every two or three months, that might just be slant again, but if it's multiple times a month AGF fails.

Regarding the bigger issue, with the idea that "slant" let Gilabrand feel entitled to fight a content disupte with dirty edits under careful cover of the prior "slant" decision here, we seem to have twelveish edits over roughly 2 months time. The prior stuff (prior to the earlier AE case where the slant was discussed) seemed to be more active than that. I am not yet seeing that activity level or type of edits has trended up. If that were happening, that would be disruptive. Can you give us a better idea of rate?

I am glad you did decide to post here; this was much better data to review and understand than what's come earlier. I am (still) not yet convinced, but you are providing a much more convincing case, and I look forwards to your response and elaboration on the RS removals and the timing/rate question. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Hablabar

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheShadowCrow

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --TheShadowCrow (talk) 03:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Topic ban from the subject of Armenia-Azerbaijan relations, and any others stemming from it.

Administrator imposing the sanction

EdJohnston (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) or Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), imposer has been passed around a lot.

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by TheShadowCrow

I would like to appeal an indefinite AA2 ban and all other Admin-custom bans that resulted from it, such as Sandstein's ban that I can only appeal once every six months. This ban has existed for about a year and a half now and I think it's time to finally take it off. I haven't edited an article specifically about AA conflicts since October 2012 following an edit war on an AA page, which I apologize for, and I have not had any conflict of any kind for what will be 7 months next week. But a lot of recent issue with it is if I should have a sports exemption or not (which I was given by original imposer CT Cooper but got taken away on a whim), so I don't think it's serving an original purpose anymore. I'd say there has definitely been enough time to give me another chance. In the meantime I have contributed a lot on the article Joel Osteen in particular and resolved a lot of change issues peacefully with another editor on the talk page, so I think this proves I can edit in a constructive manner and should have the opportunity to for AA2 articles again. I promise I will continue to resolve edit issues on the talk page and not in edit conflicts or anything in the future. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 03:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Sandstein So basically you want to give a technical definite ban for no reason? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• User:Penwhale My edits decreased due to college, not because of the ban. Take the amount of time for what it's worth. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 23:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC) Moved from result section below by - Penwhale |

User:EdJohnston After Qwyrxian said that I explained things on his talk page and he said I don't know about the other times this has happened to, so I can't comment on them, so he is admittably saying he can't judge if I can edit Misplaced Pages or not. He also said a good portion of what you changed on Joel Osteen was for the positive, so it seems like you can be a good contributor. So no, it is a lie to say I was "in trouble" because nothing happened. There was a misunderstanding and it was taken to the talk page and resolved. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Here --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

User:CT Cooper User:EdJohnston User:Penwhale I have done everything I was asked to. I waited a long period of time, I contributed to other articles, and I demonstrated the ability to discuss on talk pages with other editors, but in the end it's still not enough to remove a long since redundant ban, and it's more obvious than it was 6 months ago that majority of the admins here plan to routinely ignore reason every 6 months until I give up. I already forced myself to contribute with others to an article I didn't care about to impress them and they completely ignore it.

The result mentions If you would voluntarily set some conditions if the topic-ban is removed then it may be easier to convince me. Can I at least have my sport exemption back then? There is at least one other editor banned from AA2 with it. Would it be fair if I go back to the old rules and if all is well after 6 months discuss removing the entire ban again? I have not been involved with anything Armenia-Azerbaijan related in almost two years. Please let me have the opportunity to prove myself in noncontroversial articles I care about. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Penwhale You are misinterpreting me. I was just informing you of Sandstein's gag rule because you are the only Admin here who doesn't know the background of my ban. And I specifically told User:Cailil, Since you seemed to be open minded to me editing again on AA2 articles. That's not saying "approve the appeal", it's saying "approve the appeal if you think it should be approved". So how about unstriking your statement and going back to it?

NE Ent is right. I'm being judged unfairly, strictly and biasedly. There is no rule that says how many edits I need to make. I was told to edit other articles and work with other editors. So I did. No one else here is getting this much demanded of them. Why not just give me an indefinite block if you are going to stretch the rules to give me a technical one? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

• From someone like TheShadowCrow who has been in so much trouble in the past we would expect a very persuasive appeal. For instance a clear change of heart. I'm uninvolved for purpose of this appeal since I didn't issue the sanction, though I have interacted with him in the past as an admin. (His current topic ban was issued by User:CT Cooper in 2012). The record suggests that he needs to be given very clear sanctions, since he misunderstood the sports exception and the vandalism exception. As recently as November 2013 TheShadowCrow was in trouble for edit warring at Joel Osteen. User:Qwyrxian stated, "It really seems to me that you are simply unable to adjust to the sort of collaborative processes needed to work on a wiki." This is not a good omen for letting him resume unrestricted editing on AA topics. EdJohnston (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

I'm reproducing the entries in the WP:ARBAA2 log that pertain to TheShadowCrow:

• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) banned from all articles and discussions covered under ARBAA2 per this AE thread. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) blocked for just over six days for violation of the ARBAA2 topic ban. CT Cooper · talk 19:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) blocked for one month for violating the topic ban again by editing the Mount Ararat article where there was no obvious vandalism. Add to that edit-warring and incivility towards other users (accusation of racism). De728631 (talk) 23:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles and discussions covered under ARBAA2 indefinitely per this notification. This is an extension of the previous 6 month topic ban above. CT Cooper · talk 11:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
  • TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs)'s topic ban was modified by User:CT Cooper on September 2, 2012, in the following manner: "Sports men and women and other general sports articles which happen to be based in Armenia, as long as it does not concern any political or cultural controversy, should be okay although you should still exercise caution."--Bbb23 (talk) 23:44, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
    • The above amendment is rescinded as of the 25 July 2013 on grounds that the statement was intended to be a clarification to the topic ban, not an amendment, but it has become apparent that it was the latter in practice and furthermore, it is clear that TheShadowCrow is having difficulties following the topic ban, so it should remain as simple as possible. CT Cooper · talk 20:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
      • An appeal to WP:AE against that rescission is declined, and TheShadowCrow is additionally restricted in the frequency of any appeals not to the Arbitration Committee.  Sandstein  10:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Due to misuse, the de facto exemption to reverting obvious vandalism in the ARBAA2 area no longer applies to the restrictions imposed on TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs). TheShadowCrow may notify an active administrator if he notices obvious vandalism which hasn't been immediately reverted. "Obvious vandalism" is defined as vandalism of which no knowledge or commentary of the article topic is required to identify. Any vandalism reports which raise issue with the encyclopedic content of an ARBAA2 article will be in violation of the restrictions. Notification CT Cooper · talk 10:35, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) is blocked for 3 months for creating a sock-puppet account to evade ARBAA2 editing restrictions. CT Cooper · talk 13:16, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

In view of this and TheShadowCrow's very long block log, I don't anticipate anything but more trouble if any sanctions are lifted, and would decline the appeal. (To the extent it matters, I consider myself uninvolved for the purposes of this appeal, except to the extent that TheShadowCrow also appeals my admin actions, which, it appears from the above, consist only of limiting the frequency of appeals against the other sanctions.)  Sandstein  17:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Bbb23

I no longer know whether I'm involved when it comes to TSC, so I'll err on the side of caution and post here. TSC's appeal should be rejected. He has never done anything to demonstrate that he is capable of editing responsibly since being banned. Over and over he asks for the ban to be lifted, promising to be better, but expecting others to take him at his word despite being told repeatedly that he must first edit outside of his topic area in a collaborative and constructive fashion. Nor does he respond well to such rejections, engaging in wikilawyering and unfounded accusations against those who do not agree with him. If he expended even half of the energy he spends on attempting to have the ban lifted on improving the project, he might find things would go better. This is a pretty straightforward case.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:38, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I'll add more "concrete" data, although some has already been provided. From September 2013 until now, TSC has edited six articles. They have edited two article talk pages. The majority of his edits have been to Joel Osteen, both the article and the talk page. He seemed to be combative in November of last year but has edited more constructively (that's based on a cursory inspection) this year.

It's an improvement, I think, over previous behavior, but not a particularly compelling record for six months. I understand if real life interferes with his ability to edit, but then it shouldn't matter that much to him if he can't edit the articles he wants to edit because he doesn't have that much time here anyway. Unfortunately, the burden is on him to demonstrate convincingly that the ban should be lifted.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:44, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by CT Cooper

I'm commenting here due to my previous extended involvement with TSC, though since July 2013 other admins have taken over the task of supervising TSC due to myself being inactive on Misplaced Pages. However, I have still kept a general eye on what has been going on and TSC has sometimes contacted me on my talk page to express frustration with the sanctions. I have advised TSC in the past that the best way to get the sanctions lifted was to prove himself in other areas, which hasn't happened, though I acknowledge that TSC has been busy with college. Despite the many bumps in the road I do think TSC has become a more constructive editor and understands better why some of his past behaviour was unacceptable – particularly when compared to when the sanctions were first imposed in July 2012. However, there are still issues which have already been highlighted by other users here, particularly when it comes to collaborating with other editors in contentious areas. It is clear that TSC has strong views on issues relating to Armenia-Azerbaijan and I think he should examine whether it would ever be appropriate for him to edit in those topic areas extensively, regardless of whether or not he is allowed to do so.

My overall view at this time is that I cannot say confidentially that if the sanctions were lifted, there wouldn't be problems, so I cannot recommend that they be lifted at this time. However, I remain open minded to narrowing them if the case can be made for that. CT Cooper · talk 16:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

@TheShadowCrow: Well lets look at this from an admin point-of-view shall we, if myself or other admins recommend the sanctions are lifted, and then you cause a huge amount of trouble in the Armenia-Azerbaijan area, then said admins will at best get a heavy trout slapping, at worst a heavy whale slapping. This is as much about building trust than anything else, and continuing to push this idea that there is a great admin conspiracy against you, particularly when I have told you not to do so, does not help matters. Nor does emotional rhetoric about how we should give you an indefinite block. If you are unhappy about how things are, you are ultimately free to leave the project, or you can stay and edit any topic area except Armenia-Azerbaijan topics. These sanctions are hardly a terrible burden to bear.

Yes you were told to go and edit other article areas, and yes you have done so, however the Joel Osteen case is not exactly a gleaming example – your behaviour there was better than it has been before, but it was hardly commendable. You did listen to the warming that was given, but why was such a warning necessary in the first place? The concept that we discuss things on the talk page rather than engage edit warring should be one of the first things a new editor learns. You should have known better. It also appears you still don't know what vandalism is, despite having been told multiple times. Furthermore, while the conversation on the talk page was ultimately productive, some remarks you made, particularly your opening comment, were unhelpfully antagonistic in places – it was fortunate that other editors choose only to respond to the substance.

I notice you seem to very desperate for these sanctions to be lifted and your comments indicate you have few other interests. That in itself, worries me. My instinct tells me that you will behave differently when editing Armenia-Azerbaijan articles in which you are interested in and have strong views over, against those you don't care much about at all. I also notice that whenever I get onto whether it is appropriate for you to edit Armenia-Azerbaijan article, you dodge the issue. I have to ask myself why that is? Are your motives here that of an activist or that of an encyclopediaist? We could with me more of the latter, not of the former. Perhaps it would be helpful if you shared with us why you are so keen for these sanctions to be lifted. What articles do you want to edit and what improvements do you want to make?

You asked for specific goals; I think that's a good idea. As a start I would like you see you substantially improve at least one article with some contentious content, by moving it up at least one grade on the assessment scale and resolving any disagreements on the talk page, while not receiving any justifiable complaints of misconduct from other editors. The more articles you cover, the more improvements you make, and less complaints you receive, the more likely the sanctions will be lifted. I accept six months is a long time, so I would support allowing another review in three months if we can agree on specific goals. CT Cooper · talk 23:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

On the canvassing issue, I was also contacted about this appeal by The Shadow Crow. However, the use of my username meant I had already been alerted to this discussion via the notifications system, and I was already planning to comment either today or tomorrow. On this comment, I can see that it wasn't neutral but I don't see it as any more than a technical breach of WP:CANVASS, since he was after all, contacting an admin that blocked him. It most certainly isn't grounds, on its own, to dismiss the appeal and to make TheShadowCrow wait another six months – a mild warning on WP:CANVASS will be sufficient. CT Cooper · talk 23:18, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Wow. Tough crowd. So what it comes down to is due to a solitary screw-up in just under six months The Shadow Crow must remain sanctioned? Did you notice how they didn't whine and wikilawyer after the warning at User_talk:TheShadowCrow#Joel_Osteen. Did you see how they worked a making a GA (which I guess is supposed to be important around here), and used a sandbox to get their edits in place before moving in mainspace?

Well, if you're going to be setting hoops they have to jump through, ya'll could at least have the decency to be a little more concrete. How many drama free mainspace edits, or many articles do you want them to work on before the next appeal? Anything else? GA? FA? NE Ent 18:47, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Crow, I said strictly, not unfairly -- Misplaced Pages doesn't "do fair," sorry. How about we all agree Shadow Crow makes some non-trivial editing to at least twenty different articles over the next six months? We can define "non-trivial" as sufficient editing to remove some of those ugly tags from the tops of articles -- that will give them opportunity to interact with other editors to reach agreement enough work has been done to remove the tags. Obviously no edit warring. NE Ent 22:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC) (This would include, per Penwhale's interpretation, discussion on article talk page leading to such improvements) NE Ent 00:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Pinging the admin who blocked you is canvassing now? That's a reach ... I'm certainly not seeing the polite note asking TSC to stop the guideline suggest how to respond. NE Ent 22:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCrow

Result of the appeal by TheShadowCrow

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Eh... I'd like to see a bit more activity in other areas (there are less than 70~80 edits since September 2013, to which today would make exactly 6 months) before considering granting this appeal. - Penwhale | 20:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• @TheShadowCrow: I understand there may be other underlying situations, but I still would like to see you being a bit more active in other areas as the lack of other edits make someone who is trying to assess the situation neutrally hard to do so due to lack of proof. If you would voluntarily set some conditions if the tobic-ban is removed then it may be easier to convince me. (Basically: Without edits in other area I'm not fully convinced that we should outright lift the existing restrictions.) - Penwhale | 00:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• For transparency, TSC posted at my talk page. I do think there's a need for appeals to be only heard every X months, but I'm willing to offer this: That we will hear an appeal sooner than 6 months from now if it can be shown that TSC has made significant positive edits in other areas. - Penwhale | 05:28, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Replying to NE Ent, I see contribution to 6 article pages and 1 additional talk page of an article since TSC came off block. Among the 81 edits since the expiration of block, 27 were to main articles and 13 to article pages - of which 14/12 were to Joel Osteen and Talk:Joel Osteen. It's a good thing that TSC is trying to raise the Osteen article to GA, but when you make fewer than 50 edits on mainspace/talk page in a 6-month span - and that half of said edits are to a singular article (and its talk page), the activity level is simply not there to justify us loosening the current sanctions. If we count the sandbox edits (which there are 17), then the number comes out to 43 edits related to Osteen - and that's more than half of the edits during this time. I'd like to see TSC's edits spread out a bit more in the main space across different topic areas. It's unfair for me to ballpark a number, but I just think the edits are not spread out across different areas enough for me to suggest altering the sanctions. I also agree with Cailil that TSC's edits to people on their talk pages (instead of putting them here) is troublesome and can be construed as canvassing. Based on this, I have to strike my statement which suggested loosening the appeal intervals. - Penwhale | 21:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• @TSC: The fact is, for an appeal process to be judged fairly everyone needs to be on the same page; there's a reason why I said that my talk page is not a suitable location in my reply to you there.
• @NE Ent: I would have had no problem if TSC alerted CT Cooper and Cailil when the appeal is being made. The issue I have is the fact that TSC asked them (on their talk page) to post here after DangerousPanda's comment below that leaned towards declining the appeal. That being said, I would have no problem with your suggestion with one change to it: that non-trivial participation in discussions on the talk page would count towards the number (i.e. TSC doesn't actually have to make the actual edits on the article pages provided that significant participation on talk page can be proven). - Penwhale | 23:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Any appeal such as this must link to a) significant positive edits outside of the area of the topic ban, and b) positive interactions with others. I see very few edits, and I even see a handful of very problematic ones. The "readiness test" has not been met DP 21:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• Under the apparent impression that I would alter consensus here in favour of his appeal TheShadowCrow has asked me to comment . In so doing he's just breached WP:Canvass. That alone is reason to refuse - this is not a game TheShadowCrow.

  DangerousPanda has made an excellent post above me and I support their view. Contrary to Penwhale given the level of problematic behaviour here I do think a minimum of 6 months for another appeal is appropriate given the level of trust TSC needs to rebuild and given the time it will take to demonstrate the kind of change in attitude both I and DangerousPanda are outlining here. After that initial 6 months, on the basis that some objective, and evident progress is made, then and in that case I'd be happy to see appeals after improvement rather than definite lengths of time--Cailil 14:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Penwhale & @NE Ent, a looser wording but still within the same bracket would be "after 6 months of positive substantial contributions to wikipedia TheShadowCrow may appeal again." Indefinite topic bans cannot, by definition, be timed out & 70 edits (including his edits to this thread) is just not enough for a judgement reversing well founded AE actions. These actions are lifted when they are demonstrably no longer necessary. TSC needs to show consistently that he can keep cool and has indeed developed a WP:CLUE--Cailil 12:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Unless there is a major change to consensus here I'll close this thread in 24 hours with the result as declined and with the wording: "TheShadowCrow may appeal again after 6 months of positive substantial contributions to wikipedia"--Cailil 16:48, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Askahrc

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Askahrc

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Vzaak (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 17:49, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Askahrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

There is some administrative time lag here. I planned to submit this AE upon the closing of an SPI, which was expected to be contemporaneous with the ANI Askahrc recently initiated. However the SPI backlog has been so large that it has taken a full two weeks for the SPI to be closed.

• Per this SPI, Askahrc has been strongly admonished for using an IP sockpuppet to harass users and waste the community's time.

• Askahrc's harrassing behavior -- issuing threats behind an IP sockpuppet -- was used to support the arbcom case he brought, which begins, "This request for arbitration is to resolve recurring threats..."

• That SPI is for old behavior, and Askahrc has already been sanctioned for that old behavior. That might be water under the bridge were it not for Askahrc's continued disruptions. The purpose of this AE request is to address recent behavior (not the past sockpuppeting behavior). To wit:

• Askahrc has been proxying blocked user Tumbleman's aspersions against editors. (The reason for Tumbleman's block is here:.)

• Askahrc sought to reinstate Tumbleman's first edit to the Rupert Sheldrake article, described in the first paragraph of my statement in Tumbleman's AE. I and others patiently discussed the matter with Askahrc on the talk page. The case against Askahrc's proposal was quite strong, and he didn't seem to understand or address the arguments presented against it. When he failed to gain consensus for the change, he began an ANI (which was dismissed).

• In the ANI, Askahrc cited the threats he made from his own IP sockpuppet to support a claim that editors are being reprimanded (the link is "reprimanding").

• There are many issues in the ANI, for example Askahrc twice accused me of WP:UNCIVIL and WP:HARASS. When I asked for evidence of such, none was forthcoming.

• The ANI also indicates incompetence on Askahrc's part. For example, prior to the ANI, I politely gave Askahrc a pointer to WP:LQ because his edit, with comment "Periods go within quotations", is against the MOS. The sources do not contain the periods that Askahrc inserted into the quotes. Yet in the evidence he supplied for his ANI, Askahrc denounced my revert, mistakenly thinking that he "actually corrected a violation" of WP:LQ.

• Askahrc has been promoting the idea that "a large number of innocent editors have been blocked as collateral damage" as Tumbleman sockpuppets (same links as the proxied aspersions: ) and has accused me of "an inappropriate tendency to accuse people" of sockpuppetry. Askahrc contests, for example, this SPI, for which the evidence was called "overwhelming" by the admin evaluating the SPI.

• Askahrc has additionally written WP:POLEMICAL stories on his talk page. For example one says, "I set out seven shots on my desk, one to go in my belly and six to go in my revolver", where "revolver" is a (mis-formatted) link to the recent ANI he started. Obviously I don't interpret this as a "real-life" threat, but it may be the most uncomfortable WP:BATTLEGROUND statement I have ever seen.

vzaak 17:49, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

1. Warned on 22 November 2013 by 134.139.22.141 (talk · contribs)
2. Warned on 5 January 2014 by Callanecc (talk · contribs)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

• To address the shopping accusation, this AE request is orthogonal to the SPI. Nobody would expect action to be taken on months-old sockpuppetry. The SPI is simply to establish past behavior. This AE request addresses recent behavior. vzaak 19:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Penwhale: the SPI isn't for the behavior in February, and the result of the SPI isn't for the behavior in February. All but the first two bullet points are about recent behavior. vzaak 21:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• I've modified my statement to address the SPI confusion. Consider the alternative: submitting an AE request with an open SPI. That would amount to asking AE admins to evaluate a relatively large AE request and a large SPI case, and I can well imagine AE admins saying, "Please respect our time; come back when the SPI is complete." The SPI backlog was unfortunate, but it shouldn't prevent admins from evaluating the AE case. vzaak 22:38, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Sandstein: @HJ Mitchell: Only the first two bullet points refer to the SPI; the rest of the bullet points are recent activity.

Askahrc's sockpuppeting could charitably be called trolling, serving no purpose but to stir up conflict. The SPI establishes that behavior, and I wouldn't have brought the AE request without having established that.

Now, recently, we see similar deception in his citing of his own sockpuppet as evidence in his ANI. Askahrc continues the pattern of provoking needless conflict. As shown above, this recently involves making baseless attacks on users, proxying aspersions from a blocked user, spreading misinformation about past SPIs, not listening/responding to arguments regarding content decisions, not even recognizing simple things like MOS:LQ, and bringing a frivolous ANI case when he couldn't get his way.

I am frankly uncomfortable with a user saying that he is loading up shots into his "revolver", with his "revolver" being an ANI. (It doesn't matter that Askahrc changed it to shots being loaded into his "hip", meaning into his gun.) vzaak 21:32, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• So many of Askahrc's points are not true; I could respond to each one, but the overlong response would probably put people off. For instance it's not true that "the edit in question has been one of the most frequently changed on the page by nearly a dozen editors". Over the course of seven months the quote was removed by only two people, Tumbleman and David, and David restored the quote himself after realizing his replacement was inaccurate. It's amazing that Askahrc would make a claim that is debunked by just looking at the article history. Askahrc's promulgation of falsehoods and other recent behaviors are consonant with Askahrc's past trolling activities. vzaak 02:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Presumably a final note: I suspect at least one reason Callanecc has agreed to a topic ban is that he is familiar with Askahrc's record of activities, not only Askahrc's past trolling but his recent SPI defense, where another admin expressed concern about deception. This AE request presents evidence that this pattern of behavior continues elsewhere. With 191 edits to article space over six and a half years, Askahrc is unlikely to suddenly become an active contributor. Rather, Askahrc is here for the drama, and few besides Tumbleman (with whom Askahrc has teamed up off-wiki to cast aspersions on WP editors and admins) have done more to stir up needless conflict than Askahrc. Please direct Askahrc to cease making baseless WP:ASPERSIONS and balmy WP:POLEMICs. Further, I believe it has been shown that Askahrc seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages and the expected standards of behavior per Misplaced Pages:Discretionary_sanctions#Sanctions. vzaak 13:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Askahrc

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Askahrc

Let me get this straight, half of the AE is spent discussing an SPI that Vzaak then concedes has no relevance to this AE except as some sort of character reference? I've already agreed to respect and abide by the SPI admin's judgement, whether or not I agree with their conclusions, and have done nothing to violate those terms. It seems Vzaak was hoping for a harsher SPI result and is now shopping for that ban.

As for the rest of this AE, what exactly am I being accused of?

• Disruption: The vast majority of all of Vzaak's diffs are instances where I disagreed (civilly, I would add) with Vzaak on content or procedural decisions, without a single diff showing any actual disruption or abuse. When consensus went against me I always conceded, never edit-warred and proposed very moderate changes that were based on balance, not some parapsychological belief system I do not possess. As far as my "polemics", the verbiage in question on my openly fictional allegory was immediately changed when I realized it could be misconstrued as inflammatory, and it is disingenuous to present that diff as if it were my displayed talk page. I have never promoted a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality and denounced partisanship even in my ANI against Vzaak, a position I've upheld when other editors responded to that ANI on my Talk Page by literally declaring war on me.
• ANI: As best I can tell the only issue Vzaak takes with my ANI is that one of my dozen or so diffs was to the IP referenced in the SPI case, and that I didn't provide diffs for my charge of WP:UNCIVIL and WP:HARASS. This is easy to address: Disregard the IP diff and note the CIVIL diffs primarily reference Barney, not Vzaak, because he is the editor in the ANI who had been uncivil. I felt Vzaak had displaying harassing/WP:OWN behavior, so the diffs to Vzaak highlighted that.
• Proxying: Last and most serious, this accusation appears to be based on the fact that I have continued to look into the Tumbleman issue and made occasional edits to Rupert Sheldrake. I have noted hostile behavior that has been referenced by many other editors besides Tumbleman, and the edit in question has been one of the most frequently changed on the page by nearly a dozen editors. I did email Tumbleman to find out more information and have documented all of the results of that conversation on my Talk Page in order to be utterly transparent. That's being informed, not proxying. It is ludicrous to accuse me of proxying when my conclusion was that Tumbleman WAS guilty of multiple accounts and that I supported his current ban. My concern is with current editors facing ongoing behavior like this SPI -> AE combo with the excuse of some similarity to Tumbleman's opinions, not with promoting Tumbleman himself.

To sum up, Vzaak's examples of my abusive behavior include: disagreeing with Vzaak, declaring that Vzaak's reactions to disagreement are excessive (which was immediately followed by a SPI and AE against me), and being upfront with getting more information on a banned editor. Are these AE offenses? There are no diffs of unreasonable edits, no abuses, no evidenced anywhere showing my behavior on Rupert Sheldrake itself to be inappropriate in any way. I have not and will not abuse the Sheldrake page and respectfully urge reconsideration of a topic ban. The Cap'n (talk) 03:50, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• To respond briefly to Vzaak's updated statements, I'll just bring up 3 points. First, Vzaak still has not provided any diffs of my supposedly disruptive behavior, simply saying it would be too long. The only new response was to claim I was trolling or "promulgating falsehoods," as the exact sentence they referenced was only directly edited by 5 people (Vzaak, myself, Devil's Advocate, David in DC and Tumbleman) instead of the roughly dozen I stated. Aside from being a specious accusation, this ignores the fact that this paragraph in the lead I was referring to has been edited countless times (ie. 1, 2, 3 different editors in less than a month) to AND the fact that my 'disruptive" edit was proposed on the Talk Page without dissent, when dissent arose I explained my reasoning, when that was rejected I accepted consensus and let the edit be reverted.

It has never been my intent to foster WP:BATTLEGROUND, and if people find even my edited Talk content uncomfortable I will take it down. That's a simple matter of asking me, not an AE.

Finally, Vzaak claims I am the most pervasive and disruptive editor on Rupert Sheldrake since Tumbleman (again with no supporting diffs). This is despite the fact that I've made 20 edits to the article vs. Vzaak's 646, and 50 comments on the Talk Page to Vzaak's 394, exactly how pervasive can I be when I've made 32 times fewer edits to Sheldrake than Vzaak? Further, I find the statement that because I have not made thousands of edits I'm not an "active contributor" worth keeping to be offensive. I've made more than 9 times as many edits to other articles than I have to Rupert Sheldrake, which may not be a lot compared to some but I'm doing what I can to help bolster WP and am no SPA. I work more than full time and make spare time to edit WP as a labor of love, not for drama. The Cap'n (talk) 22:14, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

The SPI was just closed with a discretionary sanction imposed on The Cap'n and there have been no further edits by the editor since then. It seems Vzaak is displeased that the sanction was not tougher and is now shopping for a better result.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Despite what Vzaak and SQ/IRWolfie say, it is clear the SPI was more than a mere sock-puppetry case. Nearly everything being mentioned here was mentioned in that case. This is just bludgeoning someone with the process. At least one of the admins involved in the SPI would have been more than capable and well within their discretion to impose a topic ban based on all the information provided. We are dealing with the essence of forum-shopping here. If Vzaak wanted to play for all the marbles then he should have come here and not try to prolong the pain with two different noticeboard trips in retaliation for being taken to a noticeboard.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:33, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Just noticed that Vzaak previously tried to get an admin to go after Cap'n concerning most of the non-sock issues being cited here. Many details are being rehashed in this AE that have previously not resulted in action despite being brought before admins with the intent of getting action.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 05:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Second Quantization

The SPI was about sockpuppetry and did not consider other areas of disruption by Askahrc. It is not forum shopping. What is the relevance of the date of the SPI filing to anything else? Second Quantization (talk) 23:38, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)=

I find that Mr Askahrc (talk · contribs) has been problematic, confrontational, condescending and failing to WP:IDONTHEARTHAT. I can't work out if he's pro-Sheldrake or just a self-appointed BLP warrior. Credit to him for trying his best to present the pro-Sheldrake view. The thing is we've bent over backwards to try to make the Rupert Sheldrake article positive by noting his support within the new age/pro-psi parapsychology communities, even though this support is not at all in any way relevant to the quasi-scientific claims he's making. Either way he's not helpful and should probably be strongly advised to stay away from the article Rupert Sheldrake. Then we'll see if he's a BLP warrior or not by whether he (1) chooses to go to another controversial BLP and try to whitewash that or (2) will go and try to subvert Citizendium with Tom Butler (talk · contribs). He's had enough WP:ROPE by now though. Barney the barney barney (talk) 21:02, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Liz

The Cap'n's main argument, as I've seen it, is that editors outside a tight-knit skeptics circle are chased off from editing certain articles, in this case Rupert Sheldrake. These repeated attempts to file charges against him by Vzaak help to make his argument for him. As far as "disruption", I've mainly seen him post an opposing point of view from the skeptics but having a different opinion from a small majority is the cause to begin seeking consensus, not to receive sanctions.

As for being problematic, confrontational, condescending and failing to WP:IDONTHEARTHAT, well, that charge could be levied against several editors who edit in the area designated "pseudoscience". It is a very polarized editing field on Misplaced Pages. Unfortunately, I see this effort as an attempt to silence an editor with a contrary opinion which makes this a content issue, not a conduct issue. I think issuing topic bans because someone disagrees with the dominant editors on a subject, whatever topic that is, has a chilling effect that sends the message to other editors to "stay away" from editing articles in this subject area. Liz 03:39, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Result concerning Askahrc

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• I see nothing even remotely actionable since February 16 which is when SPI is filed (and thus a good point in time to consider the merit of this request). - Penwhale | 21:10, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you vzaak. Making it easier for assessment... I'm going to suggest the same thing as I did below at the Tom Butler section: TBAN from Rupert Sheldrake. - Penwhale | 00:06, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• As the admin who issued the previous sanction, I've no problem at all with this being imposed in addition to my sanction. Given the behaviour vzaak has linked and described above that that which I saw when investigating the SPI I think a TBAN from Rupert Sheldrake would be appropriate. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 10:40, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not interested in references to stuff that has happened in other fora, and that's all this report seems to consist of. I'm interested in dated diffs of recent misconduct. No such diffs have been submitted here, and as such, I'd decline to act on the request as submitted.  Sandstein  18:29, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• What, exactly, are we being asked to assess here? There's a lot of old stuff from the SPI, which is probably too old to be actionable now. Its only use might be if the initiator were trying to establish a long-term pattern. The only recent diffs seem to be comments from Askahrc on noticeboards and talk pages, which do seem to indicate a battleground mentality, but there's not enough there to convince me that we need to act on this now, especially given that much of it appears to have been looked at elsewhere. Are there diffs for recent edits (preferably to mainspace rather than noticeboards and talk pages—we shouldn't sanction somebody for ranting on their talk page, and ANI is perfectly well-equipped to deal with misconduct at that board if necessary) that are so egregious that we should be considering sanctions, or which show an ongoing pattern of lower-level disruption? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:15, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm still not quote following. There's been some apparent trolling at ANI, and some venting on their talk page, which do suggest a battleground mentality, but is there any evidence of that mentality affecting editing by others or of it crossing over into disruption in the mainspace? HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:49, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
    • I think there's ample evidence of deception (in the SPI case) and also clear evidence of a battleground mentality at work. Both of those are examples of failing to adhere to the expected behavioral standards of this site, and thus potentially grounds for invoking the discretionary sanctions. That said, I understand HJ's and Sandstein's point about staleness; Asakhrc hasn't contributed to article/talkspace on pseudoscience-related subjects for several weeks, so there is no active disruption taking place. I think it would be reasonable to table this request given the staleness issue, but also to have a low threshold for invoking sanctions without jumping through another set of hoops if further disruption occurs. MastCell  18:13, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Tom Butler

Pigsonthewing