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Proposed changes

We refer to the subject both as Coates and as Ta-Nehisi, apparently to emphasize his youth in the autobiographical work. I propose that we use Ta-Nehisi only to refer to the character, and show "the young Ta-Nehisi" at first use.

For an encyclopedic approach, I think we need to link or otherwise explain the capitalized Consciousness.

Any objections?

-- Jo3sampl (talk) 11:41, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

A constructive proposal, though I would pay heed to the Manual of Style's comments on prénom vs surname use. Skomorokh 19:10, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks; you're right on surname use. I haven't yet found a satisfactory link for "Consciousness" as used here. Jo3sampl (talk) 19:44, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Additional citations

I have added citations for all the unreferenced biographical details (attendance at Baltimore Polytechnic and Howard University, current residence in Harlem) and removed the "needs additional citations" tag. This is my first "real" edit of an article (i.e. not just fixing broken links), and I think I covered everything necessary, but please let me know if I'm in the wrong here. Mictlantecuhtle (talk) 19:34, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see any problems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.164.101 (talk) 04:34, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Ta Nehisi Coates blog style

I have tried numerous times to edit a section on TNC and the editing of articles. Well, more so on the editing of comment sections of articles. It seems that TNC, himself or others affiliated with him, have been significantly altering his own blog on The Atlantic to change comments. .

.....In violation of Misplaced Pages standard.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.65.50 (talk) 03:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

If you are genuinely confused as to why your edit keeps being deleted see wikipedia's policy on original research — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.134.185.136 (talk • contribs)

Habit of banning users

On Aug 31 2013 (link), user Agnosticraccoon deleted a link to my post about TNC banning me for disagreeing with him. Agnosticraccoon said, "Those sources are opinion pieces used to bolster what was written as objective fact. I suggest you bring it up on the talk page." I'm having trouble parsing that, but it's a fact that TNC banned me and has banned others. I mean, he says "lawl. ur so banned." to me right here. My post combines opinion with fact, but I'm sure most WP readers aren't so young that they're going to be confused between a fact (that TNC banned me) and my take on it.

Isn't it a fact that TNC banned me and publicly admits that he did so? Isn't it a fact that he's done that in other cases? Shouldn't the negatives about his style be in this article in order to provide some slight balance? ZXY4931 (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

To include such a thing, Misplaced Pages rules require that it be documented by a reliable secondary source, not a primary source like your blog. Gamaliel (talk) 17:41, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

The primary source is The Atlantic website - which has been linked. The proof is there - written words from Ta Nehisi Coates himself. The bigger question is why are you so against including the FACT that TNC bans users for disagreeing with him as a topic on his Wiki page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.65.50 (talk) 18:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstand. We can't include every random fact, so the significance of the fact must be demonstrated by coverage in a reliable secondary source. Gamaliel (talk) 18:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

No, I understand quite clearly. TNC is a blogger. That is his profession. He does something which is actually rather unusual on his blog and participates in discussion and then bans people who disagree with him. So, if you think his profession and the way he conducts it are "every random fact" then that's your personal opinion. It doesn't change the fact that you're disallowing facts on a wikipedia page because of a personal bias. The source is Ta Nehisi Coates himself. How is that less reliable or applicable than a secondary source doing a report on him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.65.50 (talk) 02:24, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not disallowing anything, Misplaced Pages policies are. They require a secondary source. Gamaliel (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are disallowing direct, sourced material. The fact that the New York Times hasn't done an article about TNC blogging habits does not change the facts of what he does. And you know that. Why are you disallowing this information? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.65.50 (talk) 00:09, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

If you have a specific reliable secondary source for the edit, please cite it here, and we can discuss the issue. A generic reference to atlantic.com is pretty worthless; one may as well claim, "I read it somewhere on the internet". Also repeated insertion of the disputed content will only result in your getting blocked from editing on wikipedia too, which would be ironic considering the subject of dispute! Abecedare (talk) 00:41, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The direct link to the comments sections where TNC has banned people has been previously provided. It was then deleted by people like you who are trying to hide the truth. Are you denying that Coates bans people from TheAtlantic.com for disagreeing with him? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.65.50 (talk) 02:12, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

You can insure that the truth comes to light by providing a reliable secondary source per Misplaced Pages rules. Gamaliel (talk) 16:58, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a "blog", I'm not a blogger, and I don't want to be associated with either term. Short of the NYT writing an article about what TNC is in the habit of doing, what would be necessary to get something in the wiki article about what TNC is in the habit of doing? The Atlantic's comments don't appear to be indexed, but if I or a bot friend can find X instances of a TNC comment admitting to banning someone, what value of X will result in that being allowed into the article? ZXY4931 (talk) 18:54, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

None, because of Misplaced Pages's prohibition against original research. A secondary source is required. Gamaliel (talk) 17:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

More to the point, Misplaced Pages is not the place to document your disputes with the subject of an article. §FreeRangeFrog 17:44, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Here is a link to all the articles that mention Coates at the Atlantic website. Which of these articles are you referring to as your source?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:34, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Removing Link to Coates Living in Harlem.

Sorry, the current link is an article that Coates wrote for The Atlantic. And we've already determined that stuff that Coates write on that website considered "original source." So I'm going to remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PJarorbi (talk • contribs) 22:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

WP:POINT Gamaliel (talk) 23:07, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, so you agree that I made a point. Or that I'm going to. Which is to apply your criteria evenly now and in the future. What is your connection to Coates anyway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by PJarorbi (talk • contribs) 03:21, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

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Gamaliel (talk) 03:39, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Arrest for assault

My edit keeps being reverted by users with no discussion, then they tell me to "go to talk page." Please follow your own advice. This author writes on issues of blacks and crime (among others), and has cited this arrest several times in his writing. Therefore, it is no at all "undue". If the personal section is a little short, then maybe that's because this person is not as notable as other people think. But the length of the section is not relevant here. Please justify your edits on the talk page here, or cease deleting good faith edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 21:29, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

It's undue weight to include the material as a throwaway line. You're welcome to present a proposal on this page for a non-tendentious, contextual discussion of those incidents in his life. Simply adding a line that says "he was arrested" to his personal life section does not cut it.

Your addition has been reverted multiple times by multiple editors and you have violated the three-revert rule. Please make a proposal here before attempting to add it again. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:34, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

The fact is that an arrest and/or suspension for minor allegations while underage would not ordinarily be at all encyclopedic for someone's biography on Misplaced Pages.

The incidents may be notable in this case, but only because Coates has discussed them in his writings as a part of his formative experiences. There are no reliable sources discussing the incidents except those that flow from Coates' own writings. Therefore, the incidents are only notable when placed in the context of his writing about them. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:45, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Your argument only consists of several conclusory statements, offered without supporting evidence. For example, you keep trying to minimize my edit by referring to it as a "throwaway line". According to whom? Is there a WP definition of "throwaway lines" somewhere? If so, what is it and why does it apply here? You call these allegations "minor". That is not a neutral POV, and you need to support your assertion. Assault is a felony in every state I know of; I hardly call that "minor". You yourself admit my edit may be ok "only because Coates has discussed them." That sounds like justification enough to include it to me. Lastly, the page has repeatedly been reverted by other user without trying to discuss or improve my edit first, in violation of WP policy; yet you do not say anything about it. please explain why you ignore the other user's behavior. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 23:31, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear what I am doing: I am trying to get to a fair temporary page while discussion takes place. Gamaliel violated WP policy at 19:31 20 Feb by reverting my edit. This is the rule that applies here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary#Unacceptable_reversions: Take note of "Never revert an edit because it was made via an improper process." Also, "Don't revert an edit because it is unnecessary — because it does not improve the article. For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse. Misplaced Pages does not have a bias toward the status quo (except in cases of fully developed disputes, while they are being resolved). In fact, Misplaced Pages has a bias toward change, as a means of maximizing quality by maximizing participation. Even if you find an article was slightly better before an edit, in an area where opinions could differ, you should not revert that edit, especially if you are the author of the prior text. The reason for this is that authors and others with past involvement in an article have a natural prejudice in favor of the status quo, so your finding that the article was better before might just be a result of that. Also, Misplaced Pages likes to encourage editing." Also: "This is a strict limit, not a given right; you should not revert any one article more than three times daily." Gamaliel broke these rules, and my reverts are trying to undo it and get to a place where the discussion (if users actually want that) can take place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 00:23, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I broke no rules. That's not a rule, that's an essay which, as it notes on top of that page "contains the advice or opinions of one or more Misplaced Pages contributor". Per our BLP policies, potentially infringing material should be removed immediately, which is what I did. Gamaliel (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, you decided to actally try discussing; good for you. Perhaps you could have just tried that to start with; the page (which you seem to want to just ignore) does say to let what you think is a minor flaw go to avoid discourgaing editors? A search of BLP page shows nothing about "infringing material", whatever that means. You certainly violated the 3RR rule, so fairness says the page should stand at my edit and let's discuss (if you actually want to). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 00:35, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

I've reviewed the edit history, and Gamaliel has not violated 3RR today. —C.Fred (talk) 00:38, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

The edit war's over, but if anyone has comments about my proposed addition, please discuss. Useitorloseit (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I oppose adding information to a BLP about a juvenile arrest with no evidence provided of a conviction. Describing this as his "criminal" background in an edit summary is incorrect and a BLP violation. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:48, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Cullen.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:49, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I think you're making much too much of my shorthand description for my edit, and anyway it's not even in the actual article. You didn't explain why you think it's a BLP violation, but no one is disputing the truth of the arrest, so any possible violation seems like a non-issue. Lastly, I know of no rule that you can't mention an arrest unless it led to a conviction. Think of those celebrities who get arrested protesting then have charges dropped; you don't think that should be allowed to be mentioned in their articles? So I don't support that rule that you are asking for. The synopsis of his book probably should get edited, too; that is not at all up to standards. Useitorloseit (talk) 04:26, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

its a BLP violation because it violates our WP:BLP policy. read it. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:00, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Please be aware, Useitorloseit that the BLP policy applies everywhere on Misplaced Pages, which includes talk pages and edit summaries. Here's the specific policy language from WP:BLP that supports my recommendation to exclude mention of this juvenile arrest: "A person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law. For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed, or is accused of committing, a crime unless a conviction is secured." This person is notable but relatively unknown, he is not a well-known celebrity: he is a journalist and commentator for a respected magazine of relatively limited circulation. The fact that the arrest occurred when he was a juvenile, and that the juvenile arrest is discussed nowhere that I know other than in his own online commentary on his magazine's website, indicates that this is minor, we have no evidence of a conviction, and inclusion of material that even hints that he is a "criminal" is a policy violation. The edit summary is evidence of your intentions. So I will continue to oppose inclusion unless and until new facts emerge. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:09, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Please refrain from trying to discern my "intentions", unless you want me to start speculating about yours. And on your main point, I think you are missing an important distinction: this issue is closely related with this subject's notability. It's not like we have an article about the 2010 Science Fair winner and I'm trying to add a note about them being busted for underage drinking. This person's notability derives from his writing about blacks and crime and issues thereof, and his upbringing in a crime-ridden inner city school and his own brushes with the law, which he wrote his only book about. So excluding it would be like having an article on a writer about homelessness and not mentioning the fact he was homeless himself once. The arrest dovetails very closely with whatever notability he has, and that's why it should go in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Useitorloseit (talk • contribs) 19:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You are correct that it has had an impact on his writing. As I have said, mentioning the arrest in the context of Coates' writing and what he has written about the experience is probably proper, in the section about his writing. If someone has a copy of The Beautiful Struggle and can assist with depicting Coates' experience and his perspective, that would be most helpful.

But that is not what is being done here - you have attempted to insert the matter as a throwaway line in his "personal life" section, when it is not a significant or relevant part of his personal life. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I support the approach suggested by NorthBySouthBaranof. Anyone is free to comment on my intentions to the extent that I reveal them in my edit summaries or talk page comments. The same goes for all other editors. Cullen Let's discuss it 07:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, I think if we add it to the book section, there's another problem: that section needs to be cut down a lot because it looks like someone just wrote a book review, and once it's cut down to appropriate size (I pruned it just now), the blurb about the arrest might seem over-emphasized if we include it there. I think it's better to mention the arrest in the section of the article dealing with his early life, since that's when it happened and readers can see he used that material in his later writing career themselves. I envision the article going something like "He had some trouble with authority growing up. Later he wrote about it." Useitorloseit (talk) 21:09, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

There continues to be no consensus for your proposal to insert a mention of a juvenile arrest into the personal life section of this article. It has been explained to you a number of times why the edit is objectionable. You are a single-purpose account with no edits to any other articles, and your continued edits are well into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT territory. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:22, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

You have violated good faith by falsely accusing me of being a SPA. Just because I don't contribute much doesn't make me what you claim. I point out that you have failed to address my last comments here, and gone back on your previous statements. Only when you settle on one opinion will we be able to discuss things. You have said you think it "probably" should go in, so I said it should be the biographical section. Again, I note for the record you revert instantly, but you don't truly engage in discussion beyond repeating the same thing. Where is your reply to my post above? You are getting into WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT territory, not me. Please explain yourself for the record and allow me to weigh in, or leave the article alone. Useitorloseit (talk) 21:59, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

There is not violation of good faith by stating the accurate facts. the only edits you have made outside of Ta-Nehisi Coates have been your spite reversals of people who have not supported your quest against Coates. Your single obsession with Coates makes you an SPA. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:15, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

So what if I don't have the urge to edit articles more than once every few years? Maybe I am not as interested in Misplaced Pages editing as you are. Did you or anyone else ever ask me that? No, you just accuse me of bad faith. Stop blaming me for disagreeing with your preferred version of the article. Useitorloseit (talk) 22:24, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

"My preferred version" of the article is one that is in compliance with our policy about content regarding living people. The fact that you have shown no interest in any other subject would not matter if your interest in the single subject was to improve the quality of the article as per the guidelines and policies. Your complete rejection of the policy that trumps ever other policy is the issue. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Who says your version is "in compliance" and mine isn't? You have an unfortunate tendency to state the "facts" as being whatever you personally think, and everything else being a "violation". I have three users agreeing it's ok to put this in the article. The current debate is WHERE to put it. Have you even read the discussion up above?? Useitorloseit (talk) 22:39, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Who sez? well so far it has been everyone who has reverted you and every one on this page who has said "No" to your version. so "who sez?" : just about everyone. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

It's clear you haven't read the discussion above. NorthbySouth said it should "probably" go in the article "in the context of his writing", and Cullen agreed. So that makes three of use (including me) who think it's relevant in at least SOME section. No one replied when I said if we're including it, it should go in his bio section, so I assumed the discussion was over. Useitorloseit (talk) 23:09, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

The discussion was over. We explained where and how it might be proper to discuss the issue - in a nuanced fashion that does not focus on the totally non-notable and unencyclopedic fact of the arrest, but on what Coates has written about the experience.

You didn't add anything "in the context of his writing," you simply re-added basically the exact same wording in the exact same place that everyone but you has determined is objectionable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 23:28, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't give biographical details via descriptions of artists' work. Tolstoy's page doesn't say "He wrote a book about Russia (by the way, he was from there)". The same principle applies here. If it's notable for his writing as you said, then it's notable for inclusion - after all, the article only exists due to his writing). And we should include it in the appropriate section, which is his personal life section.Useitorloseit (talk) 23:50, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

As has been repeatedly explained, being arrested for a minor offense as a minor is not generally a notable, encyclopedic part of a person's biography. This is a rebuttable presumption which you have made no effort to rebut, except by declaration.

Your POV on this matter was made clear by your initial edit summary: you have an ax to grind against Coates and wish to smear him as a "criminal." This you may not do. If you do not accept the consensus and cease the tendentious edits, you'll likely be blocked for disruption. And that's all there is to it. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 00:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

You are the one being "tendentious", amply demonstrated by your dismissive "throwaway line" comments, the attempts to read into my POV, your reverting within 7 minutes after dropping out of the discussion for a week, and your "that's all there is to it". You yourself have admitted it's "probably proper" to include in some context, so beware of your own words. The fact that this is a writer whose main topics are blacks and crime and the issues arising from them, who wrote his only book about his own troubled upbringing, including his troubles with the law, makes this a notable event.Useitorloseit (talk) 01:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC: high school incident

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Should this author's arrest for assaulting his teacher in high school be included, and if so where? Useitorloseit (talk) 23:58, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

• do not include we are not here to write your slander for you. WP:BLP WP:UNDUE WP:BLPCRIME WP:POINT-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

1. http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/06/if-i-were-a-black-kid/276655/

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