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Kafkasmurat

Gilabrand

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gilabrand

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

IRISZOOM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:27, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Gilabrand (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

WP:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 06:59, 10 December 2013 He removes (rm) a reference to one respected human rights organization (B'Tselem).
2. 15:25, 26 December 2013 Rm info about Israel's assasination attempt on Khaled Mashal, which threatened the treaty, but keeps info from Arutz Sheva and what they wrote got misrepresented and other one used a fact.
3. 17:31, 23 January 2014 It is "anachronistic" to write that Mohammed Assaf was born or his parents are from "Gaza, Palestine" but does not apply to the part about "Beersheba, Israel". He also rm that Beit Daras was depopulated, now only captured.
4. 09:35, 8 January 2014 This was brought up in other AE case. Now again, both in the lead and below, rm that there was a massacre in Saliha. He says the sources are not RS. Falses as sources were Danny Rubinstein in Haaretz and Benny Morris.
5. 17:36, 23 January 2014 Rm info about damage from Israeli operations, change the reason of the halt (and exaggerates it) from being the blockade to Hamas' takeover, and diminish what the source say about homes needed.
6. 07:16, 10 February 2014 Rm info about a series of paintings on depopulated villages, Yibna being one of them. Without basis, he rm info about military assault and depopulation. Cherrypicks when only mentioning that they fled, but not why, before assault.
7. 17:18, 3 February 2014 Rm Palestine. Gets reverted, then adds a fact tag as a last attempt to get Palestine removed. Explanations were given why it is there.
8. 07:57, 10 February 2014 Not only about turning in the weapons but also accepting protection by Haganah. Rm the part about the soldier firing and Zarnuqa villagers getting expelled. Adds much about weapons and that they returned them but now what they had to do and endure before they turned over their weapons. Rm who ransacked and rm info about demolition.
9. 20:34, 10 February 2014 Rm that the girl also (apparently) got killed.
10. 21:04, 10 February 2014 Rm that it was depopulated. When I reinserted it, he added it was "later depopulated". True but why not write that first? His similar actions otherwhere makes me suspicious here.
11. 19:28, 12 February 2014 Rm that it was depopulated, then only half-reverts when told he has confused them. That still gave the view that it was a current village.
12. 10:16, 20 January 2014 Israeli expulsions etc. gets dimished.
13. 10:01, 21 January 2014 Does not even seem to have the source he claims, because later he realized where it came from and then starts to diminsh the source. Anyway, he misrepresents what Israeli forces did. He got reverted, after this he starts with misrepresenting and diminishing where the claims come frome (only a comic book, where it originally came from is left out). Keeped pushing this view a month after too.
14. 17:51, 28 January 2014 Unaccepted addition of "terrorist".
15. 16:45, 24 February 2014 Rm sourced info that it is known for protests against Israeli forces and in the same time, he adds a image of Palestinian getting Israeli medical care. Changes to IDF's wording, that is "crossing" from "checkpoint". Rm that Israelis made the raid and who died gets unclear. He is doing the same thing, including one on the same checkpoint, on Commons, where we take descriptions from.
16. 07:13, 26 February 2014 Rm from lead that Israelis captured it. Current localities gets changed to something according to Walid Khalidi. This does not need to be attributed but by doing it, statement gets diminished.
17. 22:58, 26 February 2014 Rm refugees got interviewed, now it is only about about a villager and rm that the refugee said that Yishuv (Israeli) forces besieged the village and that it caused a lack of food.

Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

Blocked a dozen times. See also this, this and this.

See also the latest case here at AE against Gilabrand and the case at AN. In both cases, Gilabrand was informed by Georgewilliamherbert on the heightened scrutiny.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

I think it is clear that Gilabrand is very biased. During the last month, it has been worse than usual and much of his edits have been on depopulated Palestinian villages. Since then, I have taken a look on his edits because, as evidenced above, he keeps making unjustified edits on articles. He also made massremovals on List of villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict, including one after an editor wrote in talk page why it is not acceptable and an another editor reverting him. In the talk page about Khirbat al-Tannur, he said for some days ago that "it is time to look closer" on "'Village' lists drawn up by Palestinian advocacy sites have been circulating for years now, and copied by everyone and his grandmother without question". Maybe that explains his edits but "looking closer" does not mean making such biased changes. But of course, it is more than his changes on depopulated Palestinian villages. It is about the whole topic area. It can not continue like this.

One thing I am happy for is that he is editing about a well covered topic. Just imagine if he was doing this to a much lesser known topic.

It is not about content dispute but about conduct violations. I will now start shortening it. --IRISZOOM (talk) 20:44, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The length should be acceptable now. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

I think it is clear how Gilabrand's conduct is unacceptable. He constantly removes or misrepresents claims so that it favor Israel ahead of Palestinian and other viewspoints. Like as showed above, he removes that villages were depopulated, makes up why they were depopulated or cherrypicks, diminish Israeli military actions such as in Abu Ghosh, Yibna and Khan Yunis, changes a sentence from being that the Israeli blockade (imposed after Hamas's takover) to Hamas' takeover being the reason why reconstruction of homes on destroyed by Israel (that also got removed) was halted, removes that a girl was killed, removes that Israeli forces blew up homes in a village, adds "terrorist" label, removes that there was a massacre, who attacks etc. The POV pushing is big and clear. I see it is as very unfortunante if he can continue like this. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:17, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

It is an issue with NPOV, which I think Gilabrand fails to adhere to so many times in this topic area. --IRISZOOM (talk) 22:46, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

If the constant removals of relevant and sourced information and other violations such as cherrypicking showed here is not seen as punishable, I do not know what is then. But if this is allowed, then we all have to accept it and start play the same game. --IRISZOOM (talk) 23:58, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

*

I am surprised by your statement, Georgewilliamherbert, and the others. I can not understand how you think it is content disputes, cleanup edits etc. I am surprised because I think the pattern is clear. Maybe some is unclear now that I had to cut down my request. For example, the diff I gave on Yibna is now only one though I wanted to show different info. I gave that info but it is not clear it is different edits. Like this one and this. Explanations are given above. This is the same problem type of problem everywhere so I ask you to look at the edits again and think if the constant removals, misrepresentation and cherrypicking is not unacceptable. Otherwise, I am afraid it is like Sepsis II said. --IRISZOOM (talk) 04:38, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Greyshark09, first of all, the evidence here is strong. Three editors and one admin agree with me. Secondly, this is my first AE case against Gilabrand. Do not make up things. I expect you to retract your claim about "wiki hounding" and to the next time, get the facts straight before making such serious allegations.

I am not a POV pusher, and certainly not a "extreme" one, and even if your examples were right, saying that this is something close to removing, misrepresenting and cherrypicking info, as shown above, is not accurate. But your examples is silly and mostly because it is about you making unilateral changes and then getting reverted and then you complain that others do not accept it. And while Palestine Remembered may not be a RS, it is used many times here, because most of it is based on people like Sami Hadawi and Walid Khalidi. Even Gilabrand has used it. Secondly, as told many, many times, to put a link in External links does not require it to be a RS. It is there on nearly every article (and was there in this article too before Gilabrand removed it twice and I told both in the the talk page and edit summary why it can be there) about depopulated Palestinian villages and many others. It is nearly 700 articles.

Zero0000 also brought up the issue about Palestine getting replaced. I have written several replies there and I also said that it is you, Greyshark09, who are mostly doing it but you never joined the discussion. The fact is that the region is called Palestine. This is how it is referred to by the the vast majority of of scholars. No one is referring to the State of Palestine here. The article itself is called 1834 Arab revolt in Palestine. The Arabs there are called Palestinian Arabs, which I reinserted and not "Palestinians" so again, do not make up things. Until 2010, this is what it was also inserted in the article. It is the same thing with 1915 Palestine locust infestation. You on the other hand unilaterally changed that and other articles. You have gotten reverted by atleast another user (Zero0000) on another article. When you have support to change it, do it. Now you have not and even the titles are clear on this. They are not named like that of an accident. But you are not caring about that and are imposing what you think is right and then complaining that others are not accepting your changes.

The same thing with the other example. Here it is you again changing something. You did it here too. You changed from "West Bank" to "". This is wrong for two reasons. One is that when clicking on something visible like that (read about piping), a reader expects to go to the page about that. Secondly, nearly all articles state West Bank respective Gaza Strip. Both of them were created in 1948 so when you say that we could add "Jesus too", you are making a straw man. You would maybe have a case if I had changed to Palestinian territories (created in 1967, though it refers to the West Bank and Gaza Strip) or State of Palestine (created in 1988). Maybe you could add "under Jordanian/Egyptian occupation" before/after this but this and "West Bank/Gaza Strip, under Israeli-occupation" is very rarely done when stating birth place etc., which is on the contrary to what you claim. But this was not what you did, as you are trying to portrait it by saying that it was changed from "born in Jordanian-occupied West Bank" to "born in the West Bank" when it was the same thing but different link. Again, if you are trying to build up a case, be honest and do not make up things. It is silly to see you complaining because you are getting reverted for changes you do not have any support for. --IRISZOOM (talk) 01:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Ubie the Guru, an allegation and no support? It was sourced in the infobox, which Gilabrand and edited so he must have seen it. Furthermore, the removal of that it was depopulated was one of several wrong things he did on Zarnuqa. I advice you to read again. --IRISZOOM (talk) 16:22, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I will shortly answer your comments, Ubie, but keep in mind that these diffs are just a part of mine and HJ Mitchell's analys. The incident with Mashal is known and the info from AJ doesn't come from the film maker but a retired Jordanian general who was the manager of the king's office then. And again, you can't remove this but keep info against the Israeli side given by the settler agency Arutz Sheva (Israel National News). Other change here mentioned above.

Here is the link to what you ask for.

It is clear that it refers to Israeli forces making an offensive against the Egpytian forces who were the defending part. There is nothing POV in saying that but if you think so, discuss or reword it instead of removing it and it doesn't matter if it is only the lead. Other change here mentioned above. You have confused the part about the edits on Kalandia and Raml Zayta. With regards to Khan Yunis massacre, that many were killed does not only come from Benny Morris but also residents and UN. Morris calls it a massacre. Other change here mentioned above, like this.

I think the pattern is very clear and this is not something new as evidenced by his block log. Just to give you an example of this problem, I will tell you about what happened yesterday. I was correcting ISBN errors to a book from Morris and edited 20-25 articles. When I was doing that, I found two instances where Gilabrand had edited the page and made these typical changes. One was in 2011, where he changed to "according to Walid Khalidi" and he removed "Palestinian". The other one was from last year, where he removed "depopulated". --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Greyshark09, it is interesting that you ignored to take back your unfolded claim about "wiki hounding" and are now again discussing my conduct, while still ignoring to comment on Gilabrand, though HJ Mitchell was clear that you should file a separate claim for this. You speak about my conduct as very clearly wrong so why are you not going ahead? Is it because you maybe think it is safer to bring it up here instead of filing a separate complaint and risk backlash, as you want to happen here against me despite my evidence being strong? No matter what, you have been told about how to go forward.

I am not "clearly more pushy" and this is not an "editor disagreement". This is about an editor who is making changes such as from:

According to UNRWA several of the camp's residents have lost their homes as a result of operations by the Israeli military. UNRWA began reconstruction efforts in the early 2000s, but work has largely been halted due to the blockade imposed by Israel on the Gaza Strip following the Hamas take-over of the territory...

to:

UNRWA initiated construction projects in the camp in the early 2000s, but work was halted by the Hamas take-over of the territory...

Protesting against that is not only right but also important. These type of changes don't develop Misplaced Pages but makes it less neutral and accurate. Constantly making such changes is why a sanction is correct. --IRISZOOM (talk) 06:54, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

*

We have around 20 diffs with many of them including several distortions (to put it lightly). That is just a period in two month with most of them made in one period of month, which is so long I have closely followed Gilabrand's edits. These edits are typical of him, which is clear as others have shown here too. I would love to have seen him change, especially after the last AE case, but some are just like this. We can't just give a green light, or even orange, to editors like that. --IRISZOOM (talk) 00:33, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Bukrafil, no one here is stupid... --IRISZOOM (talk) 08:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

*

Yambaram, someone who thinks that a few of the edits shown are "somewhat problematic" and that most of them are "constructive" is just not reliable.

As I and others have pointed out, this is not some exception but Gilabrand is just like that. If you constantly violate NPOV, of course you should be sanctioned. Most, from both sides, understand that and don't falsify, distorts etc. things and certainly not regularly. Misplaced Pages is much better off without such editors. --IRISZOOM (talk) 03:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

You are trying hard but you are wrong on the few edits you have closely looked at and you are not seeing the pattern. And again, I don't trust anyone who thinks the edits are not problematic but constructive, neutral etc. I can accept nearly everything but to argue that the edits shown here are actually good is just way too much.

As you keep insisting on that my and Nishidani's examples are wrong, though he showed how wrong you were on one of them he just took as example, and as you want the the admins should look closer on them, I will answer to some of them and I can continue to clarify the evidence if that's really needed. The pattern is clear and if not the long and clear evidence by Nishidani is sufficient, I guess nothing will be.

The report in the Mapam daily is the one we have and to demand we somehow find another one is silly. What can be done is to not cite it as a fact, which wasn't done either. The fact is that Gilabrand had nothing against using the report. He used it and changed to "According to a report in Al HaMishmar six villagers were killed, 22 were taken prisoner, and 40 rifles were surrendered despite previous claims of having none". But he removed that three people were killed by a soldier and that the villagers were expelled. So he takes what he likes from the source but removes things he doesn't like from it or doesn't mention it (what the villagers had to do and endure before turning in their weapons). Furthermore, that 6 villagers were killed and 22 were taken prisoner didn't come from the Mapam daily. That was just another one of Gilabrand's falsifyings and distortions. The info comes from Haganah (Jewish/Israeli forces). So the Mapam daily that looked like this in Morris' book:

The soldier told me how one of the soldiers opened a door and fired a Sten at an old man, an old woman and a child in one burst, how they took the Arabs . . . out of all the houses and stood in the sun all day – in thirst and hunger until they surrendered 40 rifles . . . The Arabs had claimed that they hadn’t in the end they were expelled from the village towards Yibna.

and the two paragraphs after that by Morris (79x is the footnotes):

The Arabs protested that they were being driven towards their enemies, anti-Zionist Arabs whom they, in Zarnuqa, had not allowed into their village, ‘but this did not help, and, screaming and crying, they left . . .’.791

Altogether, six inhabitants (three men and two women and a girl) were killed and 22 taken prisoner.792 The following day the inhabitants came back, relating that the Yibnaites had driven them off as ‘unredeemable traitors unworthy of hospitality’. The returnees watched the Jewish troops and neighbouring settlers ransack their homes. Then, for the second time, they were ordered to leave. Zarnuqa’s houses were demolished in June.793

is told like this by Gilabrand who picked what he wanted from it (in addition to removing things that were already in the Misplaced Pages article, as explained above and below):

According to a report in Al HaMishmar six villagers were killed, 22 were taken prisoner, and 40 rifles were surrendered despite previous claims of having none. The next day, the villagers returned because they said the residents Yibna called them traitors. They watched their homes being ransacked and were evicted again.

Okay, Yambaram, you think it sounds like that Israel didn't depopulate the village. But instead of assuming things, why not look closer in the source? The villages was depopulated on 27-28 May. This was sourced and he must have seen it as he edited exactly that parameter in the infobox. They were expelled two times, which Gilabrand removed in one case and distorted in another. Gilabrand also removed that Jewish soldiers and nearby settlers ransacked the village of Zarnuqa. In the way he changed it, it could also look like the Yibna villagers were the one doing it. After he had removed that they were expelled the first time, he then changed the other time to being an "eviction". But he wasn't done here. He also decided to remove that the homes were demolished, as he said there was "no source", though it was on the same page.

What are you trying to say? That when Morris write "They appear also to have raped and murdered a teenage girl", we can remove the part about "murdered"/"killed" because footnote 777 looks like the following?

Giv‘ati, Desert and Fire, 45–47; and Rami Rosen, ‘Col. G. Speaks Out’, Haaretz, 16 September 1994. Moshe Giv‘ati described a battle followed by a massacre. Rosen interviewed a number of elderly Haganah participants. All resisted the word ‘massacre’ (tevakh) but admitted to ‘killings’ (hereg). Or as Simha Shiloni, one of them, put it: ‘I don’t think one can call what happened there a “massacre” . . . But in effect what happened was a liquidation of some of the adult males captured with arms.’

Of course this can't be done just because Morris doesn't expand the source. And what makes you think that removing the part about killing is correct but in the same time keep the part about rape? If we are going to apply your logic, both should have been removed. What a strained attempt by you to make it look like that this was correct. It only shows that using either logic, removing only the part about killing is wrong.

I also doubt that Gilabrand checked the source. If he had done it, he should have, as Nishidani said, noticed that Morris speaks about "appear" and "apparently". The source also speaks about the army-age villagers being "executed" but I wouldn't of course expect Gilabrand to accurately represent that part.

As both your and Nishidani's sources show, and the original ones which was in the article and Gilabrand edited on (that was Morris on p. xviii and number six on the list and Khalidi on p. 92), there is a connection between Burayr and Bror Hayil, regardless if it is "in" or "near" (Morris use both, for example, as Nishidani show). What Gilabrand did was to make it look like Khalidi only meant that Bror Hayil is one mile away from Burayr. He actually writes on the same page (92) that "Beror Chayil" was one of the villages established on Burayr's lands.

There is no doubt at all that Burayr was depopulated. All the inhabitants fled to Gaza when Israeli forces attacked in 12-13 May. This is in the article about Burayr, which Gilabrand had edited here before he made that edit to Bror Hayil, and sourced to Morris.

Another thing to note is that in the former AE case, it was brought up by Huldra that Gilabrand had earlier edited on Burayr, where he changed it from:

The kibbutz was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr.< ref name=Morris#6>Morris, 2004, p. xx, settlement #6.</ ref>< ref>Khalidi, 1992, p.92< /ref>

to:

According to Arab historian Walid Khalidi, it was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr.< ref>Khalidi, 1992, p.92< /ref>

So what Gilabrand then did was removing the source to Morris and changed to that it was only something "according to the Arab historian Walid Khalidi". When it gets reverted, he comes back and tries another way, as shown here, to erase facts and Palestinian history. As I and others have said, he has shown that he can't edit in this topic area. --IRISZOOM (talk) 06:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Gilabrand

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gilabrand

Statement by Nomoskedasticity

I think Sandstein's instructions are unfortunate. The point here is the pattern, and without a significant range of instances and a thorough explanation it will be harder to see the pattern. If the OP cuts it down as instructed, it might well look like just a content dispute. The post at present does a good job of showing excessively tendentious editing, something that AE ought to deal with particularly in regard to an editor like Gilabrand who has a long history of it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

The tendentiousness and POV-pushing is there for those who want to see it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert:: What do you think of IRISZOOM's example just above (diff here)? Note the edit-summary ("ce") -- thoroughly deceptive. This sort of thing is absolutely typical of this editor's engagement in the I/P topic area. I appreciate your concern about not wanting to tilt the balance towards people editing in that area from a different POV -- but surely this means that anyone who systematically does this sort of thing from a different POV needs to be dealt with similarly, rather than simply allowing it to carry on as at present. (And of course I'm perfectly happy to have my own editing scrutinised in those terms.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:22, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sepsis

It's obvious that Gilabrand consistently abuses wikipedia to further her POV through misrepresenting and removing reliable sources, removing facts that look poor on Israel, labeling, denialism, placing sites in incorrect countries, etc, but it's also just as obvious that AE has given up on stopping such editors. Sepsis II (talk) 23:47, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Alf.laylah.wa.laylah

I hope the administrators will take the time to look into Gilabrand's problematic POV pushing. It's there in practically every edit related to Palestine. For another example, this one from earlier today, see this article move of List of Palestinian people assassinated by the Mossad to List of Palestinians allegedly assassinated by the Mossad with the edit summary "no proof". Of course there's proof. Most items on the list are sourced. The sources say the people were assassinated by the Mossad. After the move they're not "people" any more (that's not such a big issue) and they're "allegedly" assassinated. This is representative. I could add to the extensive list provided in the original request for enforcement with many more such examples. The policy they violate is WP:NPOV and the method by which they violate it is well-explained in the essay Misplaced Pages:Civil POV pushing. If the POV pushing isn't clear from what's here, though, I don't guess more will make it more clear.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:20, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Greyshark09

Frankly it looks to me IRISZOOM is wiki hounding Gilabrand once again, as this is her second or third complaint without any strong evidence, while she herself is an extreme POV editor, which doesn't care much over wikipedia conventions. For example IRISZOOM is using PalestineRemembered as a source, while it was long ago considered as non-reliable; she is making massive edits to insert Palestine and Palestinians retroactively into history without specific reasons and without sufficient sources, like renaming the pro-Ottoman Arab clans of Nablus, Al-Quds and Halil to "Palestinians" who revolted in "Palestine" in 1834 (which obviously was an Arab Peasant rebellion is Southern Ottoman Syria and little to do with modern Palestinian nationalism), renaming the Ottoman administrative Syrian provinces into "Palestine" here once again. If i see this wiki-hounding by IRISZOOM going on further i will take a deeper look on this possible abuse myself.GreyShark (dibra) 23:01, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Here is another one by IRISZOOM - Rami Hamdullah turns from "born in Jordanian-occupied West Bank" to just "born in the West Bank", while we clearly tend to indicate nationality at-birth. I guess with same logic IRIS might tag Jesus as born in the "West Bank" as well. This is an ideological question of how much Palestine we should see in history and to what extent - IRISZOOM is clearly no the one to ask this question for a neutral answer.GreyShark (dibra) 23:12, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: the sanctions of ARBPIA were created in order to reduce edit-warring and create a more neutral wikipedia as a result. ARBPIA hence should balance views to create an NPOV version; banning a user for his/her views without strong reasons (edit-warring, extensive removal of material) is actually against the concept of ARBPIA. The one who is clearly more pushy in the described editor disagreement is actually IRISZOOM, who is very frequently reverting other editors on ARBPIA articles to the preferred POV version, which can be easily interpreted as propaganda - per ARBPIA the editor who issues topic-area complaint should also be sanctioned in case of violation. Hence, according to WP:ARBPIA rule, IRISZOOM might as well be sanctioned for massive reverts and tendency to edit-war.GreyShark (dibra) 05:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by ZScarpia

@Greyshark: Even in 1834, Palestine was the common name in English for what you are insisting should be called Ottoman Southern Syria. As for the edit of the Rami Handallah article, you should look at it more carefully: Iriszoom did not change it as you describe. You should probably also read up on the statuses of the areas controlled by Israel and Jordan between 1948 and 1967. Neither area was considered to be 'occupied'.     ←   ZScarpia   05:05, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by IZAK

Agree that this is about a content dispute that nevertheless and obviously drives the anti-Israel and pro-PLO-POV-pushers crazy -- rather than edit they come to this forum. It seems that since User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) is just working a lot harder than her critics they take the easy way out and try to belittle her hard work and are trying to "cut her off at the knees" with WP:LAWYERING here. So I'll just repeat what I stated earlier but it is just as true: In a nutshell User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) is being subjected to not so subtle WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CYBERBULLYING by editors who express a POV that can be summed up as waving a little flag called "WP:IDONTLIKEIT". The accusations against her are also a violation of WP:NOTCENSORED as well as an abuse of WP:LAWYERING.

There are so far few eloquent English speaking Israelis and Jewish editors to do the tough job that Gilabrand does -- to give an alternate explanation and defense to too much blatant pro-PLO, Pro-Arab anti-Israel pushing on WP that is mind-numbing and boring if not outright stupid in its results.

Bottom line: This entire debate is too hilarious for words because of course every editor has a personal POV but as responsible editors we adhere to WP:NPOV as best we can. There is no denying that User Gilabrand (talk · contribs) works to present an Israeli perspective but it is within acceptable bounds. It is absurd to accept that "all" editors who edit I-P topics should sound and act as if they are working for Al Jazeera (hey guess what guys, this may come as a shock to you, but: Misplaced Pages is NOT Al Jazeera  !) or as hired PR flacks for the PLO or Hamas or Hizubbullah or the Ayatolas of Iran etc.

Editors such as Gilabrand are obviously loyal Israelis expressing the standard Israeli view on these subjects cited by the complaint and they will always exist. Duh!!! Just as they cannot be dismissed or ignored or exterminated in the real world by Israel's enemies, they cannot be dismissed or ignored by punishing good editors on WP who come on board who should be debated but not crushed as this complaint is trying to do.

WP cannot be "holier than thou" than the real world by trying to crush any editor who comes along wanting to insert a healthy debate and alternate views that exist out there in the world, that no amount of WP:WIKIHOUNDING and WP:CENSOR will achieve.

It only cheapens WP to crush and humiliate Gilabrand rather than discussing points rationally. And it is a cop-out to take this short-cut rather than debate her point by point, that comes across as a "cyber thought control policeman" acting to enforce "UN resolutions" when WP is neither part of the UN nor does it belong to any majority or minority be they Arabs or Jews. WP has to be fair to all because it is an online ENCYCLOPEDIA and it is not a place to wage WP:WAR. Yes, editing WP takes skill and it is a tough job, but to take out the hatched and try to proverbially "kill off" your opponent rather than engaging in proper intellectual debate and work on the technical and policy aspects of WP editing is disgusting to watch, and soon there will only be anti-Israel editors running what is already a pretty well-known debacle and degradation as more and more (like a doomed sinking Titanic of verbal huckstering) WP takes on the default role as a front for the delegitimization of the Israeli POV (yes it's a POV, just as the PLO has POV and Hamas has a POV).

Okay, so let's imagine, tomorrow Gilabrand is banned or blocked forever. Does that make WP a better place? Will all the critics be happy talking to themselves now that political correctness and groupthink are enforced? It would be yet another Pyrrhic victory that only silly small-minded people could enjoy. Gilabrand is not an "ogre" -- she is a friend of WP as hard to believe that some here may find that to be, and she can be engaged on equal terms. She is smart and knows her facts, and just because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT it is no reason that she should be taken down. WP needs Gilabrand and more editors like her. IZAK (talk) 15:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Ubie the Guru

Take #8 where Gilbrand is reprimanded for removing the allegation that Zarnuqa was a depopulated village. If you go to the article you see that there is no supporting source for that, so in fairness he was correct. The anti-Israel slant in that article is clear. It seems that in Misplaced Pages editors who are negative to Israel are considered unbiased and those who are positive are considered biased. Considering the massive amounts of disinformation that is out there that is negative toward Israel, it would be a good thing if the information in Misplaced Pages were seriously scrutinized to see if it is actually true, so that slanders against this small and beleaguered country were not encouraged and spread by Misplaced Pages. The amount of information/propaganda that is out there that is anti-Israel is analogous to the Nazi propaganda against the Jews in the thirties and forties, and as in the thirties and forties, is taught at Universities. During the Nazi years, anyone who stood up for the Jews against the Nazis was considered a "Jew-lover" and was in threat of joining the Jews in the camps. Misplaced Pages is getting a reputation of being a propagator of this anti-Israel mindset. Today every bigot in the world has access to media to spread their disinformation and propaganda around. I hope the administrators consider this position before they topic ban yet another hardworking editor whose sin is to see the I-P conflict from an unpopular (but possibly accurate) perspective. Ubie the guru (talk) 16:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I decided to take the statement by Arbitrator HJMitchell and see if my thesis held up, by investigating his specific differences that he used to accuse Gilabrand of biased editing. His first difference refers to "removal of material unflattering to Israel."

• "this edit removed material regarding an assassination attempt by Israel (cited to Al Jazeera)" The first the Al Jazeera source is describing a movie, presumably a documentary, made by an Arab film-maker. True or not, has the film itself been vetted as fact? Has this film whose story is being told in Al Jazeera an appropriate historical source for an article on alleged treaty violations in the Israel-Jordan peace treaty? Arguably not.
• I was unable to find the removal of sources with respect to a sentence which mentions 'an Israeli settlement in an occupied territory."
• "this removed all mention of controversial actions by Israeli forces in the 1948 war." This is the sentence that was removed: "It was captured by Israeli forces in the offensive Operation Yoav against the defending Egyptian Army during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War" This could be considered a controversial edit. Was Operation Yoav an offensive action against the defending(?) Egyptian army? The police fort which had been under the British was now "occupied" by the Egyptians according to a later section. The Negev had been part of the UN's partition plan area assigned to a Jewish state. If my history serves me right, Egypt invaded Israel in 1948 and so would be the offending army, Israel the defending army, no? The original edit tries to imply the opposite, though it is not based on any source. Also, Gilabrand's edit does not remove all mention of controversial actions by Israeli forces in the 1948 war, only in this one edit in the lead of the article.

HJMitchell says:

• "more removal of material unflattering to Israel: mention of alleged depopulation by Israel is removed; as is the statement that the village is the location of ant-Israel protests. "Israel" is removed from a statement about a controversial action by that country." Yet when I read the original sentence, this, "Raml Zayta was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. According to Benny Morris, the causes and date of the depopulation are unknown," is not significantly different from this (Gilabrand's sentence): "Benny Morris writes that the causes of the village's depopulation and when it occurred are unknown.<ref name=Morrispxviii>Morris, 2004, .</ref> "
• "a "massacre" by Israeli forces becomes an "alleged massacre"; " Israeli soldiers shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants in one of two massacres" becomes "...were shot in the search for people in possession of arms". This statement by HJMitchell does seem to presuppose or accept Morris' assertion of the fact of two massacres when according Haaretz, "Israeli historians dispute these figures. 'It's a big exaggeration,' said Meir Pail, a leading Israeli military historian and leftist politician. 'There was never a killing of such a degree. Nobody was murdered. I was there. I don't know of any massacre.'"

While I was unable to find several references these I did find are arguably an attempt to be accurate and fair to Israel, instead of only to the Palestinian Arab side in this conflict. As you continually block and ban so-called pro-Israeli editors you will understandably eventually get a field totally dominated by anti-Israel propaganda, thereby literally becoming a part of the problem and adding to the conflict by putting your weight only on one side of the see-saw. Ubie the guru (talk) 05:54, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

HJMitchell says "I note that you dispute my interpretation of individual edits, but the point I'm making is that the pattern in Gila's edits is problematic. I'll happily listen to arguments that I'm wrong, but just re-hashing individual diffs isn't going to do it."

A 'pattern' is made up of individual edits. You claim that Gilabrand's 'pattern' is pro-Israel and that this is problematic and seem to be urging a topic ban. To make that determination you must look at individual edits and ask yourself if indeed these edits (eg the ones you used to condemn) are in fact pro-Israeli and if so, are they in fact untrue or worded in some way as to imply some untruth? Could you be seeing this out of your own prejudice, as we all tend to do? Is a pro-Israel bias defacto wrong; and if so is an anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian bias defacto wrong? If so, then the edits of opposing editors should be equally scrutinized for such bias, especially at the time they are attempting to topic ban an editor. To the pro-Israeli editors on Misplaced Pages it is clear that the anti-Israel editors view AE as a formula to rid Misplaced Pages of the virus (as they see it) of pro-Israel-bias editing. There is a highly entrenched group of anti-Israel editors on Misplaced Pages. They are very vocal, bring numerous AE's against both new and older "opponents," and vote administrators in or out based significantly on their expressed viewpoints in this conflict. This is not empty rhetoric on my part. I can provide evidence if required. I hope you will consider this because it is only a matter of simple fairness to both sides. If you ban one perspective or point of view, then Misplaced Pages will become (as many already say it is) a vehicle for propaganda for the other side only. It is in the tension of both points of view that the facts will come out and the truth will be discernible. Ubie the guru (talk) 20:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Yambaram

Looking at all the selectively picked diffs provided by IRISZOOM, I only found 4 of them to be somewhat problematic. Considering the fact that Gilabrand has made thousands of edits in this very heated topic area, where every little change may look like a huge POV-attempt, in my judgement I actually find his/her edits rather constructive, even in most of the examples provided by IRISZOOM here, who is a user I'll not elaborate on now. So while he/she is evidently supportive of the so called Israeli narrative, I think it's absurd to expect perfection from such editor, and Sepsis definitely doesn't have a case for a topic-ban on Gilabrand.

Regarding a few comments raised above: Sepsis, I think you should have been referring to yourself as well when you said "AE has given up on stopping such editors", because as previous cases have shown, your edits are extremely POV-pushing with regards to the I / P area. Alf.laylah.wa.laylah, your example is ironically bad. An article cannot be named "List of Palestinians assassinated by the Mossad" if it hasn't been absolutely proven that these people have been assassinated by the Mossad. You said "Most items on the list are sourced". Really? So if most 'items' are sourced (by some independent organizations/websites), that entitles all Palestinians listed there to be considered as people assassinated by the Mossad? Well, not only was Gilabrand's edit okay, it was necessary. Any objective editor would agree that the article should indeed be renamed. See this article for example. And then read Misplaced Pages's guidelines again, please.

Nevertheless, we must make sure Gilabrand and other editors for this matter are more cautious and careful with their edits, and therefore I think a warning of some kind or even a short block should be implemented, as admins shall decide, in order to deter this editor and other editors (well, maybe even including me) from future possible edits that may violate the Misplaced Pages's neutral-editing rules. -Yambaram (talk) 22:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Sandstein and HJ Mitchell, a topic ban of Gilabrand would be a disgrace for Misplaced Pages. A few notes I want to say in response to Nishidani's first 4 points (and I'm sure there're good explanations for the rest as well) :

• 1- The RS (BtSelem) does not support the statement. It simply does not say what the article said it says.
• 2- Removal of the section entitled "Alleged treaty violations" that Gilabrand removed was sourced to an Al Jazeera article describing a movie, not a scholarly or journalistic source. The statement that Nishidani gives from a different source that ‘Amman saw the attack not only as a violation of Jordanian sovereignty but as a violation of the 1994 Israel-Jordan peace treaty,’ is a far cry from "As Meshaal lay in critical condition, King Hussein condemned the assassination attempt in the strongest terms as a violation of Jordanian sovereignty and threatened to void the treaty if Meshaal died. Fortunately, international pressure on Israel forced them to hand over the antidote (which had incidentally already been determined and administered by Jordanian doctors treating Meshaal). Meshaal recovered, and the treaty remained intact." Doubtless had Nishidani used that sentence with a proper source, Gilabrand would have left it alone.
• 3- Nishidani's comment that Benny Morris' account calls Beit Daras a massacre and/or a depopulation is just wrong. http://books.google.com/books?id=uM_kFX6edX8C&lpg=PR4...
• 4 is about moshav Avivim, but instead of being about Avivim it was about Saliha, which has a whole separate article devoted to it. That article refers to a massacre in the lead of the article. Gilabrand attempted to restore the article to what it should be - about Avivim.

Yambaram (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

@Sandstein:, if may ask, did you actually go through Nishidani's edits yourself or do you just assume they are all accurate? @Georgewilliamherbert:, please take a look at these responses as well as the previous one I posted above.

• 8- Read Morris carefully, as the newspaper reports that Morris cites this: "a graphic description of what happened next was sent to the Mapam daily: 'The soldier told me how one of the soldiers opened a door and fired a Sten at...etc'" So what we have here is a newspaper report that does not have an author, in which a (unnamed) soldier tells the (unnamed) author about what another (unnamed) soldier supposedly did. Is this real evidence or propaganda perpetrated during war? Just because it is included in Morris doesn't make it true. An objective person would demand another source for this at the very least. Morris does say clearly: "One of Zarnuqa's clans, Dar Shurbaji, wanted the village to surrender its weapons and accept Haganah protection. The others argued against and the village evacuated most of its old people, women and children to nearby Yibna. The Shurbajis stayed on along with several dozen armed menfolk from the two other clans." It sounds to me like the depopulation of this village was not Israel's doing.
• 9 - the original dif given with Morris sourced: "Israeli troops killed a large number of male villagers who were of army age and raped and killed a teenage girl." Gilabrand dif: "A large number of army-age villagers were killed and a teenage girl was reportedly raped." Morris: "They appear also to have raped and murdered a teenage girl." What does footnote 777 say about the raping and murdering of a teenage girl? Nothing. Gilabrand's version more accurately reflects the source(s) given, and Nishidani is incorrect when he claims: "Gilabrand here again, works fast as a copywriter, but is not examining the source, or trying to improve article reliability and comprehensiveness."
• 10 - This diff is given as an example to Gilabrand's bias. The question is whether it is accurate to say that that "The kibbutz was established on the land of a depopulated Palestinian village named Burayr, " or this "The kibbutz was established on a hilltop about a mile from the Palestinian village of Burayr." Both soured to Morris. Obviously those in favor of the worst interpretation against Israel are going to want to imply that Israel wiped out and "depopulated" this Arab village and then build directly on top of it. The Morris source says on page 371 "On the night of 18\19 April, the new outpost - eventually named Kibbutz Brur Hayil - was established near the village of Burayr (which harassed the Jewish construction workers with light weapons fire and was attacked and conquered by the Haganah a month later..." The Days and the Seasons: Memoirs by Evyatar Friesel- also says the same. "The name Bror Hail, meaning "selection of soldiers" was probably assoicated with the revolt of Bar Kochba against the Romans in the first half of the second century C.E. There was a large Arab village nearby, Brer (obviously an adaptation of Bror). Its inhabitants had fled during the War of Independence, and only the ruins remained". http://books.google.co.il/books?id=maH72vtWntYC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=kibbutz+bror+hayil+israel&source=bl&ots=7GBQG21p6c&sig=xVYntp5shTOghjl2Gm3ipylKXZQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bVwaU9CPNe-CyAGX4IDoDg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=kibbutz%20bror%20hayil%20israel&f=false.

At first I thought a short ban of Gilabrand would be the right "punishment". Now, I doubt any action should be taken. I encourage you to examine these (and other) edits for yourselves. Thanks, Yambaram (talk) 23:32, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Nishidani

Well I've tried to stay out of this, - one gets the impression that any comment in an AE action is read tendentially in terms of where the editors are coming from, and thus, since all are putatively POV-pushing partisans in administrative eyes, no contributor's comment is evaluated as anything other than a power-game. That's pretty depressing. I'd much prefer that any of us, whoever, might be dealt with harshly according to severe rules of conduct. As it is, bad editors cause time-consuming grief: one has to trail them esp if hyperactive and 'mop up'. Two administrative remarks are just, I think, inappropriate.

• (a) 'We previously decided that a slant absent other disruption was OK for Gilabrand.'

I.e. At a minimalist readng, Gilabrand can do what a significant number of editors from both sides refrain from doing, because their reading of what policy allows one to do with articles that are reliably sourced is restrictive. More largely, and operationally, she alone has been given a free pass to mess up normative editing procedures in the I/P area by wilful removal of RS, pro-national rewriting, misleading edit summaries, suppression of facts,etc.

• (b)'I don't want content disputes in troubled areas by sides picking off editors.' I can't recall, in several earlier cases, of my ever asking for Gilabrand to be chased off. She has been a productive ce writer. But she is a habitual eraser of properly sourced material in order to push an Israeli POV. I and several others may see things differently, but there is a tacit rule we can't erase information if it is RS-based, except under very exceptional conditions. If one does, one goes straight to the talk page and sort the problem out, which Gilabrand almost never does. Gilabrand tampers persistently with RS (her 'ce' appears to consist in rewriting without actually consulting the sources, and that is the difference. I can't see anyone 'picking her off'. I see her constantly, day in day out, stepping over a fine line between comprehensive article sourcing, checking and finding new or better ones, and copyediting that systematically removes RS in order to 'disappear' anything she diapproves of as inappropriate for Israel's image. The technique used in the edit-summaries is repeatedly deceptive.

For the record here's my reading of the first 5 diffs.

• (1) edit summary ‘advocacy site not RS’ at Jordan Rift Valley

This is pure deception ‘The singular’ ‘advocacy site’ refers to one of the two sources, Americans for Peace Now, not to (B'Tselem). The former is an advocacy site, and must not be used. But Gilabrand also removed with it (B'Tselem).the B’tselem source here, with the other, which is not an advocacy site, and everywhere used in the I/P area. I.e. she used a pretext to elide an RS under cover of removing another. 10 seconds googling would have told her the data here are widely attested in usable sources.

So the edit summary was deceptive, and the effect was to remove an impeccable RS by sleight-of-hand.

• (2) On the articled Israel–Jordan peace treaty, there was a section: ‘Alleged Treaty Violations’, which Gilabrand summarily removes as ‘off-topic’. There is nothing alleged about ‘treaty violations’. It is a well-sourced historical fact. No one familiar with the facts would challenge it.

It wasn’t off-topic. It was sourced reliably, and the sourcing could be improved, and the section expanded. P. R. Kumaraswamy , ‘Israel, Jordan and the Masha’al Affair,’ in Efraim Karsh, P. R. Kumaraswamy (eds.) Israel, the Hashemites, and the Palestinians: The Fateful Triangle, Frank Cass & Co, London 2003 pp.111-126. ‘Amman saw the attack not only as a violation of Jordanian sovereignty but as a violation of the 1994 Israel-Jordan peace treaty.’

• (3)

Edit summary ‘ce; anachronistic.’ The ce fixed a serious error. At the same time it (a) failed to control the RS (Benny Morris 2004, since that source has no pagination, and should have been supplied in revision). Had she checked Benny Morris p.256, she would have realized that he mentions the village was ‘captured and depopulated’ in a scorched earth operation, precisely the details she opts to elide from the text. Such details are not ‘anachronistic’ since the depopulation of Beit Daras is not an ‘anachronism’. It is true that you can choose to remove as excessive details from the lead, but Gilabrand’s pattern of editing is to erase all mention of massacres, evictions, deaths with the ‘neutral’ voice of ‘captured by Israel’. . .(silence)

• (4)

The edit summary ‘ce; not RS’ is again wholly deceptive. For while copywriting, Gilabrand removed a key historical fact concerning an Israeli massacre, documented by Israel’s foremost historian of the era, Benny Morris, and by Israel jounalist Danny Rubenstein . This is widely accepted in Israel (Eyal Benvenisti, Chaim Gans, Sari Hanafi (eds) Israel and the Palestinian Refugees, ‎Springer/Max Plank Institute 2007 p.121)

• 5

Edit summary.’ ce’

Nope. Source falsfication combined with failure to fix the link. The text she saw read:

According to UNRWA several of the camp's residents have lost their homes as a result of operations by the Israeli military. UNRWA began reconstruction efforts in the early 2000s, but work has largely been halted due to the blockade imposed by Israel on the Gaza Strip following the Hamas take-over of the territory after battles with rival faction Fatah. UNRWA states that at least 10,000 housing units are in need of reconstruction.'<ref name="UNRWA"/>

Gilbrand writes:

UNRWA initiated construction projects in the camp in the early 2000s, but work was halted by the Hamas take-over of the territory. UNRWA envisaged the construction of least 10,000 housing units.<ref name="UNRWA"/>

What has she done here?

The text she produced (a) elides housing destruction by the IDF (b) the blockade of building materials is lost from view, giving the impression Hamas might be responsible for failure to build ('work was halted by by Hamas takeover.' I.e. Hamas blocked UNWRA, not Israel)(c) the key UNRWA word reconstruction, implying building accommodation to replace housing destroyed by IDF operations is replaced by construction, as if this was some new real estate project starting from zero. The overall effect is to make Israel’s hand in events invisible, and imply the whole situation is autochthonous. This is the original source she distorts

. RECONSTRUCTION OVER THE YEARS, MANY OF THE REFUGEES LIVING IN KHAN YOUNIS LOST THEIR SHELTERS IN ISRAEL DEFENSE FORCES OPERATIONS. PRIOR TO THE IMPOSITION OF THE BLOCKADE, UNRWA HAD COMMENCED A SIGNIFICANT RE-HOUSING PROJECT TO ACCOMMODATE ALL THOSE WHO HAD LOST THEIR SHELTERS. HOWEVER, THE BLOCKADE PREVENTED UNRWA FROM BRINGING IN CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS TO COMPLETE THE PROJECT, LEAVING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WITHOUT PERMANENT SHELTERS. UNRWA ONLY RECEIVED PERMISSION IN 2010 TO BRING IN THE MATERIALS TO COMPLETE A NUMBER OF HOUSING UNITS FOR REFUGEES WHOSE SHELTERS WERE DEMOLISHED YEARS AGO. UNRWA ESTIMATES THAT IT MUST CONSTRUCT A MINIMUM OF 10,000 SHELTERS TO RE-HOUSE REFUGEES CURRENTLY LIVING IN UNACCEPTABLE CONDITIONS AND/OR WHO HAVE LOST THEIR HOMES AS A RESULT OF THE CONFLICT.Nishidani (talk) 14:35, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• 6

edit summary.’ off-topic commentary’

Again, deceptive summary. A paraphrase of a source is not ‘commentary’, which implies WP:OR. It is a reproduction of sourced content. It is not a legitimate POV slant to remove obviously relevant information given in the cited source. On the village of Yibna it is not ‘off-topic’ to write:

Palestinian artist Sliman Mansour made Yibna the subject of one of his paintings. The work, named for the village, was one of a series of four on destroyed Palestinian villages that he produced in 1988; the others being Yalo, Imwas and Bayt Dajan.<

when the source, Gannit Ankori Palestinian Art Reaktion Books , 2006 p.82 reads:

‘Another series of four works from 1988 relates explicitly to the lost homeland through the titles given to eachy work by the artist. Mansour named each composition (Yalo, Beit Dajan, Emmwas, Yibna) after a Palestinian village that had been destroyed by Israel since its establishment in 1948. Thus, art became a way of resisting the eradication of Palestinian history and geography,’

It is not a 'content dispute', but a refusal to allow content that one dislike. To rewrite this as

Palestinian artist Sliman Mansour named one of his paintings for the village.

Is a major impoverishment, suppressing the whole point about why Mansour did that series. You get a meaningless factoid that begs explanation. The whole point of Mansour’s paintings was to evoke a past that Israel had erased. And Gilabrand appears to think her job or mission is to erase any mention of that Palestinian past.

• (7)

I think it premature on wiki terms to replace West Bank with State of Palestine. The edit is POV, but so is what it reverted, arguably. This should not consitute evidence for AE.

• (8)

An Israeli newspaper report cited in the fundamental work by an Israeli historian on the conflict states that ‘a soldier fired with a Sten gun at three people (one old man, old woman and a child)’. The original editor retained the detail. Gilabrand removed it. Conent dispute? No. In her version we are given the impression that 'Women, children and the elderly were evacuated to the nearby village of Yibna’.

So again, this 'ce' turns out to falsify history. Gilabrand has cherypicked the source and so remoulded it that ‘women, children and the elderly’ are evacuated. They were, but not all. The source says at least some of them were not evacuated, that one of the elderly, two women, and a little girl were apparently murdered by an Israeli soldier. By suppression the detail, she 'humanizes' Israel's narrative even when Israel's finest history has no problem with the full details.Nishidani (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• (9)

edit summary. 'ce for poor English' Ce it is. Unfortunately again, Gilabrand has not checked the source (when it would have been in favour of her POV to do so, since Morris writes ‘appear’ ‘apparently’ and does not write, as both she and the earlier editor did, that these are facts. p.258, but also n.777 p.306)

I said this at the other case. As any talk page analysis of the major articles will show, editors on both sides generally agree that rigorous source-control, googling for as much RS material as possible, and discussion on the talk page are integral to (a) making reliable articles in the I/P area and (b) determining content by consensus. Gilabrand here again, works fast as a copywriter, but is not examining the source, or trying to improve article reliability and comprehensiveness.Nishidani (talk) 17:47, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• 10

Edit summary ‘‎History: a mile away’ i.e. Burayr was not the site of the kibbutz Bror Hayil but a mile away.

WP:OR. (a) Amira Hass,Drinking the sea at Gaza: days and nights in a land under siege, Hamish Hamilton, 1999 p.150 writes ‘Burayr where Kibbutz Bror Hayil is today' (b) Morris 2004 p.371 writes that Bror Hayil was an outpost established near the village of Burayr’, sufficiently close for the villagers to shoot at its construction workers (thus not ‘a mile away’), and then on p.374 Bror Hayil is said to have been ‘constructed’ in Burayr'.' (c) The same point, that Kibbutz Bror-Hayil is in Burayr with is made by Aryeh L. Avneri,The Claim of Dispossession: Jewish Land-Settlement and the Arabs, 1878-1948, (1984) Transaction Publishers 2009 p.220 (who also adds that 1,000 dunams of Burayr land had been bought by Moshe Smilansky in 1934).

These details are easily gathered up. Gilabrand simply didn' check the source, and in her haste to rewrite everything, didn't waste time doing what we editors are supposed to do, check in RS. Again, editors are left to mop up after her. Not a content dispute, but WP:OR against what at least one of the page sources states, confirmed by several others, rightly or wrongly.Nishidani (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• 11 re Al-Ras al-Ahmar.

Edit summary = (ce; add)

She was shown to do this in the lase case, i.e. say she is adding while at the same time she subtracts a key point. What did she add? That the village was ‘conquered’. What did she remove? That the village was depopulated (as Morris notes it was pp.482-3).

In principal one is not obliged to add stuff one dislikes if one reads it in RS. As a rule, however, one has no right to remove stuff in an article that is grounded in RS which another editor has verified. Morris uses the verb ‘conquered’, and he uses the term ‘depopulated’. Gilabrand adds ‘conquered’ and removes ‘depopulated’. I.e. she is altering a balanced text to ‘slant’ it into a one way narrative shorn of any fact or detail that might suggest ethnic cleansing took place.

• (12) Abu Ghosh

Several points in the ce are spot on: removing excessive use (3 times) of the word friendly’, for example. But in rewriting

During the early years of the state of Israel the village was subjected to repeated searches by the army and anyone who had not registered as resident in November 1948 could be expelled.

As

During the early years of the state, military searches were conducted in the village to remove non-residents.

That, to an historian’s eye, damages the narrative by the elision of a specific detail that was of great importance at that time, i.e.the dating by which ‘infiltrator’ was distinguished from ‘resident’. Still, this is not an AE problem considered alone. It's just evidence that Gilabrand enjoys her now acknowledged right to 'slant' things-

• (13)

Edit summary ‘Ce according to source’-

Adds ‘alleged massacre’. But the source does not say the massacre is disputed. The source right under her nose, again Benny Morris, says the massacre happened-

Some were probably killed during two massacres by IDF troops soon after the occupation of the Strip. On 3 November, the day Khan Yunis was conquered, IDF troops shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants in the town.

That one late source challenges what several specialist historians state as a neutral fact is a matter of WP:Due regarding the sceptic's fringe view, arguably. It is not a warrant for introducing 'alleged', unless at least one makes a good case for that on the talk page, which Gilabrand failed to do.Nishidani (talk) 21:56, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• (14) Adds terrorist

This is in the source, one of dozens available (Ynet has a middle-right POV slant). Yet, as an old-hand Gilabrand cannot but know,:-

The POV of Hamas is that they are ‘martyrs’ training camps’ (many sources)

The Israeli right wing POV is that they are ‘terrorist training camps’.(many sources)

Misplaced Pages’s standard neutral voice says neither (except with legal convictions for terrorism (Khalid Duhham Al-Jawary), or a politically motivated massacre is universally defined as terroristic (Baruch Goldstein) ). They are training camps for militants. We don’t choose sides. Most editors in the I/P area observe this convention. Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• (15) Removes a source critical of the Palestinian leader and the PA which notes that

'The Kalandia checkpoint is best known as a flashpoint between Palestinian protestaters and Israeli security forces,’

and uploads a shot of Israeli ambulances taking Palestinians to Israeli hospitals. Both of these are true.

The intent is to erase any information from one side, expressive of conflict under the occupation, and highlight the humanity of the other side. Why both elements, reflecting all sides of the reality, cannot coexist side by side, is onscure. From my reading of WP:NPOV, one does not erase sourced information that is negative for an actor, while adding sourced information that is positive for that actor. Gilabrand's editing in the the Israeli ambulance image is in itself, perfectly correct. Editing out the Palestinian aspect of it being a flashpoint for conflict changes her addition into a piece of PR-engineering. I would not remove the image. It should be balanced by some matter which says that at Qalandia, most of the people regularly shot or gassed by Israeli troops during demonstrations there and elsewhere are treated in Palestinian hospitals, in the field, or at Ramallah, Nablus etc. In that sense, her edit unbalances, and is provocative.

This is not an either/or world, but a 'this-but-also-this-world'. Gilabrand can’t see that.Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

• (16) Iraq Suwaydan

‘The village was destroyed.’ By whom? The 'by whom?' has been excised (It was captured by Israeli forces in the offensive Operation Yoav against the defending Egyptian Army during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.)

The edit impoverishes the text and creates a mystery not resolved in the body of the article.

• (17)

Edit summary:’another name’ (This doesn’t explain what she actually did)

The original text ran:

'Raml Zayta was depopulated during the 1947–1948 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. According to Benny Morris, the causes and date of the depopulation are unknown,'

I.e. it was depopulated 1947-8 but the specific date (month, week) is unknown.

Gilabrand rewrote

Benny Morris writes that the causes of the village's depopulation and when it occurred are unknown.(Morris, 2004, [http://books.google.ca/books?id=uM_kFX6edX8C&pg=PR18&dq=raml+zeita&lr=#v=onepage&q=raml%20zeita&f=false p. xviii)

This is an obfuscative edit, for which there is no warrant in policy or good practice. Morris has (not as Gilabrand’s edit has it on p.xviii, but p.xvi) Raml Zayta in a list dealing with Palestinian villages abandoned and depopulated (for 6 different reasons, where ascertainable) in the war of 1948. If we take Morris, as she does, the date (1948) and circumstances (Israel-Palestinian civil war) are contextually obvious, and they were given in the previous version. Once the year and circumstances are cancelled the main body of the text becomes meaningless. Some Jews (sometime presumably between 1945 and 1992) came along and told the villagers to go away, and some died on the road (traffic accident?). She’s made the war disappear, the army disappear, the circumstances disappear. And there is absolutely no reason for her doing this, unless she wishes to erase any mention in this or other articles that the 1948 Palestinian exodus ever took place.

Worse still, in the source (Rosemarie M.Esber, Under the Cover of War, The Zionist Expulsions of the Palestinians,2008. Arabicus Books p.297) we have, a date is supplied. This is not just Gilabrand's fault, but of the previous editor. The oral history of survivors of Ramle Zaita recorded by Esber (published 4 years after Morris's book) clearly fixes the first weeks in March 1948 as the date when the 'Zionists' began to beseige the village. The actual assault took place on March 15, when the threats recited on our page apparently took place. Once more, a few seconds googling for the details would have solved the mystery ('According to the villagers' oral memories, the expulsion took place on March 15, 1948'). If she had troubled to check the source, she would certainly not have twisted Morris's words to suggest we haven't the foggiest notion of the time, date, circumstances or actors involved. But editorial laziness or insouciance to comprehensive reportage is not an indictable crime for AE. Twisting Morris to make out even he doesn't known this occurred in 1948 is however deplorable. Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

GWH. Thanks. I make a principle of not tracking other editors, or examining their contribs. I don't see Gilabrand's edits often, except on the few occasions where her ce takes place on one of my 800 watchlist pages. If you wish me to examine say her edits for February to see if the pattern is wider, I will, however. She is a very good copyeditor, I repeat. But she is not interested in assuring that articles are evenly balanced. To the contrary. As a result, some unfortunate has to watch her every I/P edit, or some mechanism should be devised to ensure that she does not persist in skewing by removal firmly-sourced RS material bearing on the Palestinians. Nishidani (talk) 14:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

GWH. It looks like it would take ages to run through her February edits. I'm far too slow, far too crabby an editor to look at vast amounts of data quickly and efficiently. Just for the record, I'll give you the result of what I found when looking at just the last edit she made.

(20)

Edit summary. (nothing about this in the article)

This is the last of 22 edits to Fathi Shaqaqi, and removed a substantial amount of matter.

The edit summary is true and false. It is true that all of those details are not in the attributed Telegraph source, but it is false since some of them are.

'The two kidon waited for him to stroll along the waterfront. Ran and Gil drove up on the motorcycle and Gil shot Fathi Shkaki six times in the head. It had become a kidon signature.’

What she is doing here only becomes clear in examining how she rewrites the Telegraph's account of the kill. We are given the Mossad preparations, the check into the hotel, and the escape. She does not want any mention of the act of the assassination, w apparently, which however the Telegraph does report. Yet quite precise details of that hit are widely covered in many fine RS sources, as my editing of that page today now shows. Ronen Bergman, The Secret War with Iran: The 30-Year Clandestine Struggle Against the World's Most Dangerous Terrorist Power, Simon & Schuster 2008 p.215, which should come up immediately in any google search, contains precisely key details in the passage she removed as not in the Telegraph source. Good practice here requires editors to put up a note at least for a few days, and not automatically remove an wrongly attributed set of details, esp. when much of what is there can be found in google books. Whatever, it is odd that she takes out a description of the assassination, and leaves in the details of how it was set up. Is it that details of how a man was gunned down while shopping on a street in Malta strike her as not Israel-image friendly? I don't know.

Nowever, the terrorist in question had a brother, and when Gilabrand began working the page she found the following unsourced remark:

Fathi Shaqaqi's brother Khalil is director of the Nablus-based Center for Palestine Policy and Research, established in 1993.

Gilabrand here sourced this to a piece of speculative trash by a patently non-RS, and notoriously Islamophobic private think tank, i.e., Investigative Project on Terrorism. Despite the innocuous language of the text, the source is a smear piece branding the brother, still alive and thriving, also as a fanatic jihadist ('KHALIL SHIKAKI AND HIS ROLE IN THE FORMATION OF THE PALESTINIAN ISLAMIC JIHAD NETWORK IN THE UNITED STATES,'), which is an off-the-planet piece of fringe lunatic speculation.

Why use that new source when, on the page when Gilabrand started editing this article, one excellent book published by Princeton UP gave the same detail? (Christoph Reuter, My Life is a Weapon: A Modern History of Suicide Bombing, Princeton University Press,(2002) 2004 p.95)

She must have checked it. It was linked. Were it not for the fact that even the best of us fuck up, and quite often, the impression given is that Gilabrand ignored the book source because there Khalid Shaqaqi is described as an 'elegant' 'distinguished scholar' diametrically opposed to his fanatic jihad-pushing elder brother. He is an American-trained political scientist and scholar. In ignoring the immediate source to hand and introducing a crumy hate-site reference it does look like Gilabrand preferred to add a link to the islamophobic non-RS to tar him with the same brush. All very subtle, of course, seeding an islamophobic source for an innocuous piece of text. Not your rampant IP blowhard POV pushing, but perhaps for that, more dangerous because this kind of editing goes under the radar all too easily.Nishidani (talk) 23:13, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

However, unlike nearly all problem editors in highly contentious areas, Gilabrand has actively reformed at least a minimal demanded amount after each sanction,

Perhaps since this impression is now recurrent and understandable, and comes up everytime Gilabrand is mentioned, one should use this opportunity, regardless of G. to clear the air, get all the suspicions, accusations, and details of unreformed POV pushing in the I/P area on 'paper'. I'm sick and tired of seeing such generic innuendoes, and I expect that admins who say this is the case to call for its documentation. If I or anyone else is a 'problem editor' wikipedia can do without us, and we ought to be brought to book. GWH is right that POV pushing in itself, in the sense of unilateral interest in a topic area where two sides exist, is not to be sanctioned automatically. The problem is editorial technique. If we all are required to use a restrictive reading of WP:RS, and not tamper with articles capriciously, but identify lacunae, weak documentation, use more frequently, raise issues about verification on the talk page, etc., administrative work would be reduced notably (and Gilabrand and others would not be in trouble). Nishidani (talk) 09:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

If we draw that particular line in the sand, nearly everyone editing the topic area will be gone.

GWH.I.e., we should save soldier Gilabrand because, if we don't, two platoons (both sides) of footsloggers will also get shot. Even in the worse case scenario User:Zero0000 would survive unscathed, and if his method of dry-fact excavation and neutral wording was all there was left, it would be a perfect signal to all and sundry that that is the only method endorsed.

I don't believe this for several reasons. She's consistently shot herself in the foot here, and, as I said elsewhere, I believe most regular editors would survive scrutiny because, unlike G. they may be POV-slanted, but they respect RS, engage the talkpage and know that removing good material is simply not done. I work here and look at this in practical terms. The only argument for ignoring the problem is that over the last three years, the I side has lost more 'militants', and there's a slight majority of editors who can be identified as caring more for the 'P' narrative. That's quite possible. But it's no grounds for softening the regulations which have produced the great improvement in the I/P area since ARBPIA. Since it's conflictual, people who wish to edit there have to learn that their every edit must stand administrative scrutiny, and abuse will be punished. Will that scare off potential new editors? Perhaps. Will it mean more editors, regular and new, will realize we/they all have to pull our socks up because on this street zero tolerance operates, esp. for repeat offenders. Yes, and that can only improve things. Nishidani (talk) 08:07, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Operatively, we all are subject to incremental punishment as the raps on our charge sheet get longer. No one just gets banned. They are incrementally warned by successive extensions of the period they are sent to 'porridge'. What is happening in these two cases is anomalous. In order not to have G permabanned (and that is certainly out of the question), she is now stuck with an effective no more sanction policy because she's good generally. That is not the right signal to send her, or our way, way because it translates as = 'if you are invaluable' you get a kind of tacit immunity despite regular messing about with articles. In the good old days, a year or so ago, if I fucked up or was thought to have fucked up, I found nothing wrong in a quick judgement that put me on hold for one or three months. I even sat out a permaban, until a few good folks asked for a review. It improved my editing. Nishidani (talk) 08:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I am entirely happy with exploring Gilabrand's behavior on the edge in some more depth

As I said, this would be a huge task, and we've been asked to keep things short and sweet, and personally I have a dozen neglected fruit trees to prune if my summer menu is to be garnished with non-toxic fruit-salads, something far more important than doing the disagreeable detective work of snitching. But the pattern noted by some does exist, and is not hard to find. I dealt with the edits given by IRISZOOM, but checking successive edits on just two of them now, this pattern is obvious and does involve (a) deliberate removal of reliably sourced material and (b) the exploitation of the trade of 'copyediting' to falsify sources. I'll give you two more examples from the edit histories of 16 and 17 above, which were immediately evidenced by just a brief check yesterday.

Page Iraq Suwaydan This is a good example of what lies behind her copywriter's penchant for the narrative passive voice: in this context, it consistently elides the Palestinians as historical subjects-

(here)

the lead noted Israel had destroyed the village, when it did so, and in what circumstances. Gilabrand puts the text in the passive voice and elides Israel.

In a further edit there this is what she then does:

(1)’In 1942 the villagers established an elementary school' is changed to '1942, an elementary school was opened' (by whom? the Palestinian 'villagers' disappear.

The source Walid Khalidi says

’In 1947 Iraq Suwaydan shared its elementary school.which the inhabitants had established as a private school- with the neighbouring villages of ‘Ibdis and Bayt ‘Affa.’(p.109)

So this copyediting technique either reduces the Palestinians to inert objects of historical change, or elides them. Israel's historical 'other' is rendered invisible.

(2) Earlier draft

'On May 15 the British authorities gave the local population control over the police fortress.

In this area, legal transfer is a fundamental issue, everything is based on whether norms existed or there was a legal void, which Israel occupied.

Gilabrand’s rewrite runs

'On May 15,1948, the British authorities withdrew and 'the police fort was occupied by Arab forces.'

It's obvious what she has done here. The earlier text speaks of the legal passage from one authority (British) to another (the villagers). This happens to be inaccurate, but a legal transition of authority did take place. Gilabrand breaks the legal transition. The British go, and the Arabs ‘’occupy’’ (i.e. Arab outsiders came in and took the village, then Israeli (outsiders) wrested it from them). The 'subtle' message is:'there was a power vacuum, and Israel just filled it, which in this case, unlike many others, is false. The transition by the way did not take place on May 15, the day the war broke out. No. The hand-over occurred three days earlier, which makes the transition's legality, before hostilities, even more important in an objective narrative. The actual facts of what happened are in any number of standard texts on that war.

’As the irregulars moved east, they reinforced the Egyptian garrison that had received the police station at Iraq Suwaydan from the British, who turned it over to them on 12 May.’ David Tal War in Palestine, 1948: Israeli and Arab Strategy and Diplomacy,Routledge 2004 p.177

Page Raml Zayta.

(17b)

Edit summary:'OR removed - the date and circumstances are unknown.'

She did with justification remove one piece of WP:OR (Morris 2004 p.98).

But at the same time seized the opportunity to remove a passage she apparently disliked, taking out lower down something that is not WP:OR but impeccably referenced. Namely

American historian Rosemarie Esber interviewed a refugee from Raml Zaita, Zakiya Abu Hammad, who said that Yishuv forces besieged the village for about two weeks, causing a food shortage:

That is again, as above, using an edit summary to do what is required by policywhile, while at the same time, stealthily removing material that is safeguarded by policy.This may seem petty, indee piddling, but it is what Alf for one called the greater difficulty caused by recourse to more subtle means of messing texts than was earlier the case. And it all means 'moping up' chores for editors who think we must build articles before 'copywriting' them. Copywriting is rapid, easy, if you are as accomplished at it as Gilabrand. Actually building articles with scrupulous care for source exploration, paraphrase and expansion of content is very hard, and having to cope with editors who can't be trusted and whose work has to distract one's time into repeated checking arguably harms the I/P area. These edits only regard a handful of the edits she made over a few days of wiki work, so it's a pattern, and not cherrypicked.Nishidani (talk) 15:10, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Not my business, but Blade of the Northern Lights, a general I/P ban would not be in wikipedia's interests, somewhat unfair given the excellent work she does on Israel. HUMitchel's suggestion she stay away from Palestine and the Arab-Israeli conflict is more precise. It's tricky because Israel overlays territory with a long Arab history, and Israel articles therefore have Arab/Palestinian content. Some wording that clarifies the ambiguity would be required. Perhaps she could be asked to check anything where the line blurs with User:Zero0000, the most objective and knowledgeable I/P editor in the history of wikipedia (if he would undertake to help out). A bridge like this is the sort of thing that, if constructive over six-months, a year, or whatever could lead to some appeal, which I would happily underwrite, to release her from whatever topic restriction is imposed, if one is.Nishidani (talk) 17:17, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

User:sean.hoyland. I'd agree, if the rules were tightened along those lines. Brewcrewer's point ignores something I didn't mention. While I did just analyse IRISZOOM's diffs that range over a wide time period, when GHW asked me to look, I started, but gave up after examining just several of the last 100 diffs because I'm as slow as a wet week. But of the 20 odd diffs above, 5 fit a two day period, the last 2 days she edited. Look at the time stamps.

• Iraq Suwaydan 06:13, 26 February 2014
• Iraq Suwaydan 06:35, 26 February 2014
• Raml Zayta 21:55, 26 February 2014
• Fathi Shaqaqi 08:39, 27 February 2014
• Fathi Shaqaqi *18:35, 27 February 2014

That is not 'combing through' a vast amount of edits to fish up over a long period some damning evidence. It's seeing 5 troublesome edits in just one and a half days, intensive, not casual. Nishidani (talk) 20:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Yambaram. I think you should read statements and analysis and books correctly, and retract or cancel your last remarks. It's quite serious, if you are screwing things up deliberately. On all four points you are wrong, and grossly misreport or distort what I wrote in my analysis of those edits. What's the point? You obviously have not examined the evidence or the links. It's past midnight here, but if proof is required you are dead wrong, I'll give it tomorrow on request.Nishidani (talk) 23:44, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Counter-factual assertiveness, Yambaram, risks WP:Boomerang. It certainly doesn’t help Gilabrand, because, in implying I skewed the evidence, you force me to review the evidence in more depth and, the case would only worsen. I’ll give just one example, the first

(a)On (1) you assert or rather prevaricate:-

'The RS (B'tselem) does not support the statement. It simply does not say what the article said it says.'

The text linked to the B'tselem source Gilabrand saw and edited out ran:-

an additional 7,500 live in twenty-six Israeli settlements and five Nahal encampments that have been established in the part of the Jordan Valley that lies in the West Bank.

The B'tselem link she removed at that juncture in the article, while putting in a tag runs:-

B’tselem :’To strengthen its hold over this area, since the early 1970s, Israel has established in the Jordan Valley twenty-six settlements and five Nahal brigade encampments, which contain 7,500 residents.'

So Gilabrand, as I said, removed the legitimate link supporting the prior statement, and you now say, notwithstanding the evidence, that there is no evidence.

Earlier I didn't trouble to read before-and-after sequences in her editing strings but just checked IRISZOOM's discrete list of diffs over many articles. I have on this one, and her editing is even more confusing (POV). She removed B'tselem at one juncture, while missing the fact it was cited earlier and remained in the article. When she realizes this she makes

(b) a further edit, and challenges it as a source for the following statement:

'Some 47,000 Palestinians live in the part of the valley that lies in the West Bank in about twenty permanent communities, most of them reside in the city of Jericho. Thousands of Bedouins also live in temporary communities.'

Well? It’s in that very source. Neither you nor I can presume to understand what on earth she is doing here because she's had two occasions to read it, and evidently ignores the content. For it says:

The eastern strip of the West Bank is 120 kilometers long, and runs from the northern Dead Sea, in the south, to the Green Line south of Beit She'an, in the north. Some 47,000 Palestinians live in this area in about twenty permanent communities, including the city of Jericho . Thousands more live in temporary communities.

U.e.twice she is either removing or challenging a source which contains the very information her tags or edit summaries deny it contains. And it all deals with the Palestinian presence on the land.

A final point on this specific page she edited. By common consent we don't use Americans for Peace Now, (though in fact it is usually very reliable and full of documented details). Gilabrand was in her rights to pounce on that, and remove it. But in doing so in her ce review, she shows the incoherence of her reading of wiki principles. There are even stronger grounds for removing on sight two other references on the pages she was editing, namely

(i) this

(ii)And David Eshel Increasing Importance of the Jordan Rift Buffer

On purely technical grounds (i) takes me at least to a non-site. I had to check and find the proper link for the subject, which is an Israeli Kibbutz Website. In either case bohabayta thoroughly fails the RS criteria Gilabrand used to erase the pro-Palestinian APN

(ii) fails WP:RS on exactly the same grounds because it is a blog, 'Defense Update- News Analysis by David Eshel’ (David Eshel is a retired IDF Lieu.Col. writing a blog for his self-published website Defense Update.

Conclusion? Gilabrand weeds out pro-Palestinian sources on policy grounds that she does not apply to Israeli sources that have even lesser credibility.The same applies to the other three, which I won't detail here because it would only burden the page with the obvious.Nishidani (talk) 13:17, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Yambaram. I suggest you desist from persisting in attempts to mess up the facts. This deliberate fudging of what occurred is, frankly, intolerable (and unreadable).

(2)' Removal of the section entitled "Alleged treaty violations" that Gilabrand removed was sourced to an Al Jazeera article describing a movie, not a scholarly or journalistic source.'

(a)It was not a movie. It is a reconstruction of the events surrounding the attempted assassination of the Hamas leader by Mossad. It contains interviews with the actors involved in the planning of the assassination, and in the political crisis it precipitated, al-Shukri, Danny Yatom and others. It was also a 'journalistic source'. See the accompanying page.

(b)The text synthesizing the filmed reconstruction explicitly writes:

King Hussein condemned the assassination attempt in the strongest terms as a violation of Jordanian sovereignty and threatened to void the treaty if Meshaal died.

(c) It contains all of the material elided by Gilabrand as 'off-topic'

(d) The video reconstruction, if you watch it, remarks that 'King Hussein was very upset especially since Israel and Jordan had signed a peace treaty.' 'The peace treaty would be dead if Meshaal died.' 'He told him the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel would be over if Meshaal died."(40:15- 41:53 minutes on the video's timer)

(e) Al Jazeera, Kill Him Silently is RS but, as I noted, far from being the best readily ascetainable. The facts that this constituted a critical diplomatic incident that threatened to rupture the peace treaty between Jordan and Israel is known to every Israeli, even Gilabrand. It is known to every student of the area. Pretending it was not so is playing the faux naif. f she wasn't satisfied with the source, all she needed to do was google, and get what I googled in 10 seconds from an academic source. She didn't. She just deleted it, because, one must presume, she doesn't want facts that spoil an image of national rectitude in I/P articles.

(3)Yambaram 3

'Nishidani's comment that Benny Morris' account calls Beit Daras a massacre and/or a depopulation is just wrong.'

Nope. Your characterization of what I wrote is completely wrong. The link you provided to Morris does not work. You evidently have not read, or even checked, Morris.

I wrote:'Such details are not ‘anachronistic’ since the depopulation of Beit Daras is not an ‘anachronism’, and did not speak of a 'massacre'.

The operation in which Beit Daras was ethnically cleansed was a result of an objective in the Giv'ati's operational plan to 'create general panic and ..force the Arab inhabitants 'to move'.' 'In the case of Beit Daras, if it resisted, it was to be 'destroyed . .and dealt with in the manner of scorched earth' (which is what happened, the houses were blown up, the wells and granaries sabotaged') Morris 2004 p.256. The inhabitants were driven to despair and exodus (p.258).

One of the sad things in this sorry business is that editors like Yambaram and Tritomex, in my personal view, are far more obstructive, less productive and technically incompetent than Gilibrand, who has made genuinely important contributions to wikipedia on Israel-related articles, though she is untrustworthy and often deleterious with regard to the Palestinians. They defend her faults, since they share them: they lack her virtues (as do a number of 'pro-Pal' editors in here). If she is their model, then they could learn buckets loads by imitating her editorial mastery, rather than defending her tendency to fiddle with the facts.Nishidani (talk) 10:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Comment by Roger Davies

I've formed no opinion on the actual editing here but I am concerned about an alleged accommodation to allow "slanted" editing. How does this square with core policy where it states: is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it?  Roger Davies 17:36, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Bukrafil

So much hot air to wade through here. More than the human brain can process. I just wanted to say that I come across this editor's work from time and time, and can only laud it. Some of the best work on Misplaced Pages, in my opinion. I looked at some of the complaints above and find it hard to believe how the editing of an excellent contributor is being dragged through the mud. Every article he has touched (that I have seen) has been greatly improved - and usually much expanded - while reducing what was often extremely shrill and blatant propagandistic writing. Some pages here are absolutely shameful, and downright embarrassing for something that calls itself an "encyclopedia." (Personal attack removed) Based on all the squawking and posturing above, if Misplaced Pages wants to scare off new editors or make others quit in disgust, it is doing a great job.--Bukrafil (talk) 08:21, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: I have blocked Bukrafil for 24 hours for casting aspersions against another editor, contrary to my warning below. I have invited him to file an AE request against IRISZOOM once the block expires. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:38, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Brewcrewer

Banning Gila would be a biased and wrong decision. Anyone with a lot of time on their hands can comb through the edits of myself and most if not all of the commentators here and selectively put together a report that would similarly conclude that the editor edits in a POV fashion. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:18, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sean.hoyland

This discussion covers many interesting issues, but it's probably quite a good illustration of a bit of an uncoordinated and incoherent approach to dealing with issues that are fairly commonplace in ARBPIA. I don't normally find myself agreeing with Brewcrewer, but I tend to agree that "Anyone with a lot of time on their hands can comb through the edits of and selectively put together a report that would similarly conclude that the editor edits in a POV fashion". People usually can't be bothered to do that though and AE doesn't have a great record, in my view, when it comes to reviewing large volumes of evidence and acting on it. It's tedious to compile and review it and it's easy to not think about potential sampling issues. 1RR has been quite effective at getting editors to follow the rules, presumably partly because editors know that they will be blocked if they break the rules. It's fairly quick and easy to compile the evidence, file a report and it's processed quickly, usually without complicated discussions. I wonder what would happen if a similar approach were used for other policy/guideline violations in ARBPIA, like NPOV violations, source misrepresentation, biased source sampling, using poor quality sources/non-RS etc e.g. make 3 violations in an article and you are banned from the article or blocked for a week. In many cases, it's not very difficult to identify pretty unambiguous examples of these kind of violations. If people knew that a small number of policy/guideline violations in an article could trigger sanctions, perhaps they would be more careful. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:19, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Tritomex

(Personal attack removed) Gilabrand who is a highly skilled, neutral editor in my opinion will be overpowered by repeated group reporting. I will be honest and I will say what I see. The lack of equal measure for applying sanctions in context of Arab/Israeli conflict will turn away all editors who believe in balanced and neutral editing.--Tritomex (talk) 00:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: I have blocked Tritomex for 24 hours for casting aspersions against other editors, contrary to my warning below. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 11:00, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Result concerning Gilabrand

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This complaint is excessively long (2700 words) and contains, at first glance, diffs of edits that appear to reflect content disputes. The arbitration process cannot adress good faith disagreements about content. The request should be cut down to the required size (500 words) and be limited to diffs that clearly show the violation of a Misplaced Pages conduct rule, such as vandalism, edit-warring, personal attacks or (excessively) tendentious editing. If that is not promptly done, the complaint may be dismissed out of hand. Gilabrand should not feel obliged to respond to all of this overlong complaint.  Sandstein  20:41, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• I agree the length is excessive, and I'll admit I only skimmed the prose. The diffs, though, give me the distinct impression that Gila has carried on regardless since the last time she was here, despite the advice she was offered by Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs) (who closed the AE thread), Debresser (talk · contribs), and myself (see the last three sections of this oldid from Gila's talk page. Since then, Gila has been to ANI, where she was cautioned for other conduct that was a continuation of the sorts of issues that led to the AE thread. I think a topic ban is necessary, otherwise Gila will continue to carry on regardless, and the ensuing noticeboard threads alone will be an entirely avoidable time sink. Gila makes constructive and valuable edits to articles about Israel and Israeli culture in general, but her every foray into Palestinian topics ends up with a noticeboard thread, many of which have resulted in sanctions, as evidenced by Gila's extensive block log and repeated entries in the log at WP:ARBPIA. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:59, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• You may well be right that Gilabrand's editing is problematic in some manner, but I can't come to that conclusion based on the evidence submitted here. Even in shortened form, it is a list of diffs the complainant disagrees with (perhaps legitimately) on content grounds, but with little or no explanation of why they represent misconduct, such as an indication of which Misplaced Pages conduct rule they allegedly violate. As presented, I'd decline to act on this request.  Sandstein  21:58, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

  I'm also not seeing anything terribly problematic. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:12, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

• On first impression, most of the first half of the edit diffs seem to be ordinary cleanup edits, ordinary content disputes, or something that the original cited sources should confirm or deny (for example, teenager "raped and killed" vs "raped" - cited to Woods - what does the source actually say?...). However, the list move seems problematic. There are sources for the 2/3 of the list entries that I have spot-checked so far. The sources could be wrong, but the sources say "were assassinated by" not "were allegedly assassinated by". The sources state it as fact. That by itself does not rise to actionable, but probably should be moved back. The last half of the edits I have not yet checked. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• None of the edits, in and of themselves, rises to the level of sanctionable misconduct, and—viewed in isolation—it would be very easy to dismiss them as content disputes or other matters that are not relevant to AE. However, what the initiator has not managed to convey is that there is a pattern of edits by Gilabrand, which—taken as a whole—clearly show that she is pushing a pro-Israel, anti-Palestine POV. For example:
• Removal of material unflattering to Israel:

• this edit removed material regarding an assassination attempt by Israel (cited to Al Jazeera), but left other alleged treat violations (those allegedly committed against Israel), and indeed strengthened the wording of one such allegation from "Article 7 notwithstanding" to "in violation if Article 7". Most of the material Gilabrand edited is not supported by the source, whereas the assassination attempt (the only part which Gilabrand felt was "off-topic") is.
• this edit removes sources (including an Israeli NGO) for a sentence which mentions an Israeli settlement in an occupied territory.
• this removed all mention of controversial actions by Israeli forces in the 1948 war.
• more removal of material unflattering to Israel: mention of alleged depopulation by Israel is removed; as is the statement that the village is the location of ant-Israel protests. "Israel" is removed from a statement about a controversial action by that country.
• a "massacre" by Israeli forces becomes an "alleged massacre"; " Israeli soldiers shot dead hundreds of Palestinian refugees and local inhabitants in one of two massacres" becomes "...were shot in the search for people in possession of arms". Prefacing such words with "alleged" is arguably a constructive edit, but by contrast, Gilabrand is only too happy to label Hamas a "terrorist" organisation. Also, "men" become "militants".
• Similar watering down or removal of unflattering material about Isreali forces here, as well as replacement of "refugee" with "villager".
• Removal of mention of an alleged murder by Israeli forces, addition of "reportedly" to discredit unflattering claims about Israel, all under the edit summary "ce for poor English" for an edit that was clearly going to be controversial
• removal of statement that Palestinians had lost their homes as a result of Israeli operations; removal of mention of Israeli blockade.

• Removal or derogation of mention of Palestine:

• this one removes references to "Palestine", "Gaza Strip", and "refugee camp".
• "Gaza, Palestine" → "Gaza"

• That's as much analysis as I have time for at present, but I think it clearly shows a pattern of removing or diminishing mentions of Palestine (which is, at best, controversial) and removing or diluting material that is unflattering to Israel, particularly alleged misconduct by Israeli forces or alleged negative repercussions of Israeli actions or policy, such as with regard to occupied territories. Note also Gilabrand's block log, which is full of AE blocks for the same conduct, showing that this is clearly a long-term pattern. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:59, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Hm, discussions about the neutrality of individual edits are a content issue, but a pattern of editing Misplaced Pages only to make articles read more favorably towards one side of the conflict violates WP:NPOV as a conduct rule. If you conclude, based on your review, that this is the case here, which I can well imagine, then a topic ban would be appropriate.  Sandstein  09:37, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

That is indeed my conclusion, and I think an indefinite topic ban is necessary, but I'd like to leave it for another day or two to see what others have to say and to see if any other uninvolved admins want to weigh in. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 20:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Ubie the guru:, I note that you dispute my interpretation of individual edits, but the point I'm making is that the pattern in Gila's edits is problematic. I'll happily listen to arguments that I'm wrong, but just re-hashing individual diffs isn't going to do it. Also, you're remarkably familair with Misplaced Pages for someone with four edits to their name; please log into your main account. @Greyshark09:, @IZAK:, the conduct of Gila's opponents doe not excuse her own; if you want to discuss the conduct of other editors, please file a separate request against name individuals; I will happily evaluate it with the same open mind as I have this request, and I will personally sanction anyone whose misconduct is brought to my attention, but sweeping assertions against a large group of editors are not relevant to the request against Gilabrand. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:52, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

The conduct of everyone sets a background level of tolerance on a given subject matter. When does innocent exiting become slanted to one side, when does a slant become editing to advance a particular POC, when does POV editing become disruptive.

We previously decided that a slant absent other disruption was OK for Gilabrand. Or, tolerable to the community. There was a specific name-calling claim after that which was ambiguous but only burned up AGF margin in my mind. My question - has anyone posted a diff demonstrating worse behavior since the prior decision than what we decided was suboptimal but tolerable?

I am not convinced. I am convincable, but not so far.

There is a line out there, but I don't want content disputes in troubled areas by sides picking off editors. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:10, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Everybody: Please keep your comments concise, on-topic, and restricted to whether or not Gilabrand's conduct is acceptable. Again, if you want the conduct of others examined, please file a separate request against named editors, providing diffs. The next person who posts assertions without providing evidence will be blocked.
• @Ubie the guru: unless you log into your main account, I will block you; I, for one, will not have experienced editors evading scrutiny (or indeed evading sanctions) by pretending to be new editors. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:11, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I would like to thank Nishidani for the much better analysis with context.

Regarding my comments above and Nishidani's interpretations, I think you misunderstood. Slant is not "editing to advocate a side only". Slant would be, editing in proper Misplaced Pages form and intent, but say 2/3 of the tough calls on copyediting, reliability of sources, etc. coming out on one side rather than another. Much of what was presented appeared to be slant, but you have rightly called out some things that go beyond that once you explain the context better.

Regarding picking off editors in contentious areas, some people in this area HAVE clearly been trying to do that, directly or indirectly. That does not mean you are or were. The better context you specifically provided here was more illuminating than others' analysis of diffs. I am particularly curious as to how often Gilabrand is deleting reliable sources, particularly in the context of an edit whose edit summary or main thrust is something else (i.e., where it might be credibly felt to be an attempt to hide removing the source). A careful campaign to remove RS which are critical of Israel would be disruptive. If Gilabrand has done that once every two or three months, that might just be slant again, but if it's multiple times a month AGF fails.

Regarding the bigger issue, with the idea that "slant" let Gilabrand feel entitled to fight a content disupte with dirty edits under careful cover of the prior "slant" decision here, we seem to have twelveish edits over roughly 2 months time. The prior stuff (prior to the earlier AE case where the slant was discussed) seemed to be more active than that. I am not yet seeing that activity level or type of edits has trended up. If that were happening, that would be disruptive. Can you give us a better idea of rate?

I am glad you did decide to post here; this was much better data to review and understand than what's come earlier. I am (still) not yet convinced, but you are providing a much more convincing case, and I look forwards to your response and elaboration on the RS removals and the timing/rate question. Thank you. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:38, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

George, what you seem to be saying——and please, please correct me if I've misread——is that it's okay to push a POV as long as it's done politely, or that it would only be disruptive if it were (by some arbitrary definition) frequent enough. That's madness; that's absolute, sheer madness. POV-pushing is inherently disruptive in and of itself, regardless of how it's done or how often it's done. And as I've said above (that I have to explain this to an administrator is deeply disturbing), one person is not immune from sanctions just because their opponents have also engaged in misconduct; I have repeatedly invited editors to make a complaint about the filer or any other named editor, and promised to evaluate such and impose sanctions if the allegations have merit, but they have so far declined. Indeed, interestingly, after I pointed out the obvious sock-puppetry above and raised the prospect of blocks for further unsupported allegations, an IP came to harass me on my talk page. But I'm sure that's just a remarkable coincidence.

Now, the initiator has presented a series of diffs of arguably problematic edits (though he didn't manage to join the dots) which, when subjected to analysis by Nishidani (in much more detail than I had time for) and I, clearly show that Gila is persistently and habitually:

• Removes material which is unflattering to Israel; for example removing or diluting material on alleged massacres, removing mentions of negative consequences of Israeli military operations, removal of mentions of Israeli blockades, removal of material about refugees allegedly caused by Israeli actions, etc, etc,
• Diminishes or demonises Palestin(e|ians) by removing the term "Palestine", adding the label "terrorist", implying that Hamas rather than the IDF is responsible for negative consequences of Israeli operations (eg halting of constructions work at a refugee camp),
• Uses extremely misleading edit summaries (commonly "ce") to obfuscate these actions

That Gila does not get involved in some of the edit-warring and dirty tricks that other editors have been known to use in the topic area is commendable, but pushing a POV is not somehow more acceptable because it's done politely. Further, Gila has an extensive track record of this:

• She has no fewer than eleven blocks in her log, all for exactly the same sort of conduct, all related to ARBPIA
• Of those, several have been modified to remove talk page or email access due to further abuse while blocked,
• Several of those blocks were lengthy, and one was changed to indefinite for "Persistent evasion of AE sanctions and continued disingenuous response" (later modified by ArbCom after an appeal),
• She was subject to a three-month topic ban from I/P articles in 2010 (repeated violations of which led to several of the aforementioned blocks),
• She was then subject to a 1RR restriction (before the blanket 1RR for the topic area was introduced) and mandated to justify all reverts on the talk page (both were repeatedly violated, for which she was blocked),
• She was subject to an interaction ban with Nableezy (talk · contribs).

This is an extremely long-term pattern (for reference: block log, ARBPIA log) of tendentious POV-pushing and a total refusal to adhere to the standards expected of encyclopaedia editors. An indefinite topic ban is needed here——the same sanction that would be handed down to a less established or less subtle editor with a much shorter record. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:42, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

HJmitchell, we have been here before many times, the most recent only three months ago in December .

In general; Gilabrand's behavior has certainly been problematic for years. The block and sanction logs and edit histories speak for themselves. However, unlike nearly all problem editors in highly contentious areas, Gilabrand has actively reformed at least a minimal demanded amount after each sanction, enough that appeals have consistently worked or that followup sanctions have not been needed for the exact same behavior in general. That does not mean that some final line has not been crossed, but I have two criticisms of the process here. One, without a doubt, a very large number of perfectly reasonable content dispute decisions have been portrayed in hyperbolic terms on admin and AE complaints re Gilabrand, a vast majority of which did not hold up as nearly as bad as they were claimed. Over and over again, we get cascades of complaints which are at least mostly poorly founded. Two, without a doubt, the line has been consistently shifting, with the conduct standards Gilabrand (and everyone else) are expected to adhere to becoming more restrictive over time. One can view this as Gilabrand gaming the system, pushing up to or just past the current limit until they are checked up by a sanction, or as them operating in a grey area until it resolves against their interests and then backing down some.

Additionally, of course they are editing with a Point of View. I have yet to find a human being who is educated and interested in the Middle East who didn't form a strong opinion on it. We do not expect editors to edit from a stance of imagined pure neutrality; we expect them to edit to standards, not fight external battles here, not seek to undermine consensus or process, etc. The line between having a POV and seeking to have it fairly represented in a reasonable, neutral POV article and between pushing that POV is not bright and sharp, and has not proven constant over time here on Misplaced Pages in general.

When is "I have an opinion but edit neutrally" sliding into "I have an opinion and it slants my perception of where neutral is", which slides into "I have an opinion and want to edit neutrally but also slightly promote my cause, in a fair and balanced manner", to "I want to promote my cause, but need to stay neutral and fair", to "I want to promote my cause, but other people will criticize me if I am not neutral, so I need to stay within the lines".

Beyond those, one finds more activist behavior. For the record, my opinion is that Gilabrand has at times in a widespread pattern, and with specific examples more recently, been past those descriptions into more activist behavior. The question is, how many times and how badly since December.

Until Nishidani posted, my opinion was that Gilabrand was likely "...so I need to stay within the lines" but was failing at times, in an excusable manner as they were not edit warring to defend transgressions and were alert to criticism of specific transgressions. Now, the better documented examples from Nishidani call into question whether it's potentially more clearly over the line into pushing or whether it's carefully covering up abusive behavior.

As I said in the December discussions, if we decide that we must absolutely draw the line against any slanted editing in PIA articles, and then applied that fairly and universally, there would be nearly no editors left who weren't topic-banned. If Gila is actually worse, due to lack of ability to conform, that is one problem. If they are actually worse, due to active attempt to covertly subvert the encyclopedia, that's a worse problem. If they are not actually worse than a substantiative number of other editors, but are a lightning rod due to high visibility and history, that's an even worse problem in a sense, because someone will come back in and insist we fairly apply the newly drawn line to everyone else, and then we're left with nobody not topic-banned.

It is extremely difficult to differentiate these cases. Nishidani has given enough context and effort to do so for a number of specifics; the other analysies largely have not to my satisfaction. My concern regarding your analysis is that you're possibly in the lightning-rod category, and missing the bigger picture of drawing a new line we'd then have to enforce on everyone else in a consistent manner. I am now halfway between lightning rod and worse because can't conform; the examples don't quite support a strong case on covertly subverting, though you can start to see a picture there and AGF is not limitless.

So, here's my fear. Irrespective of Gilabrand's specifics, if we draw a new line where people seem to want to, my read is that almost everyone (excepting Nishidani) who filed complaints this time gets topic banned when we come around to enforcing that line in a fair and even manner. And I think that ends up badly for the encyclopedia.

Convince me that my fear is wrong, and that it's really Gilabrand behaving badly by themselves, or even worse, covertly trying to subvert, in any statistically meaningful manner. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:57, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert: that comment is excessively long and I recommend you seriously shorten it for exactly the same reasons people submitting requests here are told to be concise. On the actual merits of the request, there seems to be ample evidence submitted that Gilabrand has been persistently unable to edit neutrally with regards Palestine and the Israel/Palestine conflict. Whether other editors have been as bad or worse is irrelevant here, as is whether Gilabrand has been provoked. If you are unable to edit neutrally in a given area you should not be editing in that topic area full stop. If you are not able to resist being provoked into editing non-neutrally then you shouldn't be putting yourself in a position to be provoked. If you cannot do either (or both) on your own then it is the job of the community to do it for you. So I am inclined to recommend Gilabrand be topic banned with regards to Palestine and the Israel/Palestine conflict.

This is emphatically not an endorsement of other editors behaving badly, either in their editing behaviour or in their interpersonal behaviour. I strongly encourage anyone who has evidence of anyone misbehaving in this area, or any other area of the encyclopaedia subject to arbitration sanctions, to bring that evidence to this forum for evaluation and, if appropriate, sanction. We do not improve the encyclopaedia by appeasement. Thryduulf (talk) 23:00, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Again - Re If you are unable to edit neutrally in a given area you should not be editing in that topic area full stop. -

The idea that we can draw a new behavioral line (differently than prior ones) and not have - and consider - secondary consequences of that is ludicrous.

If we draw that particular line in the sand, nearly everyone editing the topic area will be gone. We have, for whatever reason, allowed slanted editors who are largely behaving to keep being who they are, so that we didn't have to ban everyone. Show me the new line you want, and that you understand the consequences of having that evenly enforced, and that you are willing to accept those. I am not at all comfortable with the consequences I think come from the line you want drawn. If you think AE is controversial now, try imagining the blowback from us topic banning everyone from PIA. People *will* find equivalent examples of slanted behavior for the vast, vast majority of other participants in PIA, once they have motivation to do so. Last time this came up I did so I was able to find equivalent "bannable material" on nearly every topic-active commenter in about a day. And I was only doing it out of curiosity, not because I'm actually on one side or the other and trying to get the other side nuked out of the discussions.

This is appeasement in one way only - we have come down to the point where the distinctions involved are not purely behavioral; they become communal, and political within the community as a whole.

I am entirely happy with exploring Gilabrand's behavior on the edge in some more depth - Nishidani's work was a good chunk of that - and seeing if a less all-encompassing line was clearly crossed or not. In which case, it's not everybody, it's just Gilabrand who's topic banned. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:08, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

@Georgewilliamherbert: that's a huge post. How can we meaningfully ask those who comment in the sections above to keep their posts concise when we're posting 5500-character essays?

The issue is not that just a few of Gila's edits to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict are problematic; if it were, I could agree that we could let it slide provided there was no other disruption. But from what I see here, and what I've seen at the previous AE threads, is that Gila makes many constructive edits to articles concerned with Israel, Israeli and Jewish culture, etc, but when she occasionally makes edits concerning Palestine or the Arab-Israeli conflict, they seem to be almost always problematic. It is unreasonable to suggest that this can be dismissed as a series of "content disputes". Sure, some of them are judgement calls (though Gila's judgements seem to almost always come down in favour of Israel), but the combined effect of the edits is clearly to push a pro-Israel POV, even at the expense of reliably sourced material which doesn't fit Gila's preferred narrative.

With regards to "slant", of course we all have biases, and we're unlikely to edit about topics that we have no interest in. However, it seems reasonable to suggest that we should take steps to mitigate the effects of such biases, especially after concerns have been raised, or withdraw from the topic area if we're unable to write in a way that is compliant with policy—not just carry on, regardless of the complaints, and regardless of words of caution from admins and experienced editors, as Gila has.

Finally, let's think about the stakes here—this isn't Russian Roulette. I'm not advocating for a permanent site ban, a lengthy block, some cumbersome set of restrictions, or even a topic ban from Israel-related articles that don't relate to Palestine. I'm recommending a topic ban from articles relating to Palestine and the Arab-Israeli conflict, from which I would explicitly exempt Gila's many constructive edits to Israeli topics not relating to the conflict. That removes the problem and allows Gila to continue editing in areas where her edits do not cause problems. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:17, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

After reading through this (and yes, I read it all) I'd agree with you that an I/P ban would be best. Also, as stated above, a general warning that we don't make decisions based on word count would be good too. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:25, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Nishidani's evidence is enough to convince me that Gilabrand has edited systematically in a manner that is not compliant with WP:NPOV, and that this warrants a topic ban, considering Gilabrand's prior record. Georgewilliamherbert's argument that we might as well ban a lot of other editors in the topic area is valid, but does not invalidate the sanction in this case. The way this sanctions system works is that we can only look at individual cases on their individual merits. The broader picture, if any, is not our concern, but ArbCom's. If our sanctions (or lack thereof) become in some way problematic in their aggregate, then anyone may seize ArbCom of a request for arbitration to take whatever remedial action they deem necessary.  Sandstein  17:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

I would note that Brewcrewer and Sean Hoyland both have commented, and seem to share my concerns about selective evidence, etc. So it's not just me...

I am becoming more convinced by the totality of Nishidani's digging, however. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Then you should be submitting an AE request about Nishidani. Thryduulf (talk) 13:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by TheShadowCrow

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --TheShadowCrow (talk) 03:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Topic ban from the subject of Armenia-Azerbaijan relations, and any others stemming from it.

Administrator imposing the sanction

CT Cooper (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by TheShadowCrow

I would like to appeal an indefinite AA2 ban and all other Admin-custom bans that resulted from it, such as Sandstein's ban that I can only appeal once every six months. This ban has existed for about a year and a half now and I think it's time to finally take it off. I haven't edited an article specifically about AA conflicts since October 2012 following an edit war on an AA page, which I apologize for, and I have not had any conflict of any kind for what will be 7 months next week. But a lot of recent issue with it is if I should have a sports exemption or not (which I was given by original imposer CT Cooper but got taken away on a whim), so I don't think it's serving an original purpose anymore. I'd say there has definitely been enough time to give me another chance. In the meantime I have contributed a lot on the article Joel Osteen in particular and resolved a lot of change issues peacefully with another editor on the talk page, so I think this proves I can edit in a constructive manner and should have the opportunity to for AA2 articles again. I promise I will continue to resolve edit issues on the talk page and not in edit conflicts or anything in the future. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 03:51, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Sandstein So basically you want to give a technical definite ban for no reason? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• User:Penwhale My edits decreased due to college, not because of the ban. Take the amount of time for what it's worth. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 23:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC) Moved from result section below by - Penwhale |

User:EdJohnston After Qwyrxian said that I explained things on his talk page and he said I don't know about the other times this has happened to, so I can't comment on them, so he is admittably saying he can't judge if I can edit Misplaced Pages or not. He also said a good portion of what you changed on Joel Osteen was for the positive, so it seems like you can be a good contributor. So no, it is a lie to say I was "in trouble" because nothing happened. There was a misunderstanding and it was taken to the talk page and resolved. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Here --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

User:CT Cooper User:EdJohnston User:Penwhale I have done everything I was asked to. I waited a long period of time, I contributed to other articles, and I demonstrated the ability to discuss on talk pages with other editors, but in the end it's still not enough to remove a long since redundant ban, and it's more obvious than it was 6 months ago that majority of the admins here plan to routinely ignore reason every 6 months until I give up. I already forced myself to contribute with others to an article I didn't care about to impress them and they completely ignore it.

The result mentions If you would voluntarily set some conditions if the topic-ban is removed then it may be easier to convince me. Can I at least have my sport exemption back then? There is at least one other editor banned from AA2 with it. Would it be fair if I go back to the old rules and if all is well after 6 months discuss removing the entire ban again? I have not been involved with anything Armenia-Azerbaijan related in almost two years. Please let me have the opportunity to prove myself in noncontroversial articles I care about. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 17:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Penwhale You are misinterpreting me. I was just informing you of Sandstein's gag rule because you are the only Admin here who doesn't know the background of my ban. And I specifically told User:Cailil, Since you seemed to be open minded to me editing again on AA2 articles. That's not saying "approve the appeal", it's saying "approve the appeal if you think it should be approved". So how about unstriking your statement and going back to it?

NE Ent is right. I'm being judged unfairly, strictly and biasedly. There is no rule that says how many edits I need to make. I was told to edit other articles and work with other editors. So I did. No one else here is getting this much demanded of them. Why not just give me an indefinite block if you are going to stretch the rules to give me a technical one? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 21:16, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Cailil Sorry I was gone a few days, but please don't close this when me and Cooper are in the middle of a discussion. I've had appeals where I've waited weeks for a response.

User:CT Cooper I respect the Admin point-of-view, but I don't think that is a possible scenario you just described. In the possibility of me causing trouble in the Armenia-Azerbaijan area, well, I haven't in two years. And the amount of edits since that time can't easily be counted. People here like to bring up six months and 70 edits, but they are forgetting this is an Armenia-Azerbaijan ban appeal, not Sandstein's special ban appeal which is rooted from the AA one. I don't mean to cry conspiracy, but I think it's pretty obvious Ed and Sand, and maybe others, want to skip the fair trial part. I have been extremely tolerant and patient of how things are. Most banned/blocked editors in my place would have given up over a year ago. The fact I'm still here and how badly I want to edit freely again should say a lot about how much you can trust me.

In the case of the Osteen article, I think you are over exaggerating things. I didn't break any rules, such as the three revert rule. I'm not happy it got off to a rocky start, but seeing as how another editor completely reverted my changes, including putting a dead link back that I replaced which makes me wonder how closely he read them, and didn't leave any intelligible objections thus making talk page use difficult, I wasn't given an easy position. That's why a warning was necessary, but not for me, and it cannot be said the other editor "choose only to respond to the substance". I wanted to edit open-mindedly and the situation didn't, but edit disagreements are natural, and one undo doesn't count as edit warring. It is frustrating to put a lot of time into an article to set a good example only for one small bad part to be remembered.

Armenia-Azerbaijan articles are my main focus, but I do have other interests. I'd estimate about 30% of my edits are focused on the sport of boxing and not Armenia at all. And I don't see what is wrong about having a goal topic. I mean there are a lot of people who just edit about one thing. Look at any of those users with edits focused on the events in Ukraine. They are literal activists, but there is no penalty against them. You can read my first paragraph in this response if you think I'm dodging anything. If this had to do exclusively with a topic I haven't edited in two years, I'd say my case is pretty good. I want to edit Armenian articles because they were pretty underdeveloped until the past few years. Maybe you would understand if the Edward I article was the same size as Gagik I. As you probably know, most of my edits will be centered around sports. The non-controversial kind. After I finish what I want to edit articles about Armenian history. At the moment I have my eyes set on middle ages articles (before Azerbaijan existed fyi), then eventually I want to focus on people who are important with Armenia today. Some may result in edit issues, and if they do I will do my best to settle things on the talk and I won't edit ware. I should know a lot better by now than to expect any mercy, so of course I'll be careful with my every edit.

I understand if you don't want me to edit the historical articles now. And I appreciate you want to give me a chance to prove myself with goals. So how about this: I officially get a sports exemption to edit pages related to Armenia involving sports that have no political controversy, and if I can contribute to them well and in the conditions you set, we can discuss removing the entire AA ban in a couple months. Does that sound like a reasonable idea? And thanks for your understanding on the canvassing thing. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Cailil, the page says appeals will be closed Once the issue is resolved. You are supporting your own conspiracy claims by being is eager to silence me.

User:CT Cooper Are you freaking kidding me? The reason I haven't edited AA articles is because I have abided to the restrictions I was given. That is the whole point of this review, so that my rule following can be recognized and given another chance for good behavior, but instead admins are turning the situation inside out. A better analogy would be a bank robber serving his sentence, and then the judge says "Well, the only reason you haven't caused any crime is because you were in jail, so go back until you show you can really prove you won't cause any more" (the loophole is he can't). This is exactly what my situation is, and what your 'reason' is. Please rethink what unreasonable logic you just used. To quote what you just said, I do count multiple reverts by you in the history, so you were edit warring, you are saying using undo is the same as an edit war. Reverting is not against the rules! Stop creating rules that benefit you!

Penwhale has opted to make some changes. And you admitted yourself 6 months is too long. What happened to that? Were you lying? Maybe you aren't aware, but Ed and Sandstein have actually given a sport exemption to editors banned from AA2. It is not unthinkable. They both gave it to a user with a picture showing Azerbaijan covering over Armenia on their user page even though he has violated the ban several times. You want me to get at least one article to a good status. And I can. Articles like Levon Aronian or Henrikh Mkhitaryan, I have both the sources and the passion to make them good articles. And neither of them contain any political controversy, nor has there been any edit warring on them. In fact I've already contributed a lot to the Mkhitaryan one, without issue. So why not give me the same privileges others are being given? Do you realize why it took admins a year and a half to notice I was editing Armenian sport articles even though your exemption wasn't serious? Because there was no conflict with other editors. I have already proved I can edit them peacefully. The only problem is I am not aloud to edit them peacefully. You promised me specific goals. If you go back on that, then you are pretty much forsaking me to a longer technical indef block for another year. I was "being friendly" to you because I knew you were a reasonable Admin, and so far you are the only past admin I have talked to who has even entertained the possible idea of this ban ever ending. Will you continue to be? --TheShadowCrow (talk) 04:14, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Cailil The admin I listed as the imposer said Cooper was the imposer. Stop making a crime out of everything. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 14:58, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

User:CT Cooper Lets think back to when we first met. I can't link the edits because you erased them, but I'm sure you remember. Do you remember the kinds of edits I was making? Do you really think I'm going to make more like those any more? It's very ironic that you agree with that analogy, because holding someone after they are supposed to have been released is a very controversial issue. Look at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp for example. Delaying a sentence to create an unofficial life sentence is plain corruption.

But I'm wasting my breath (or taps) because as I've already said, if you won't remove the ban, I'm screwed. But you did say one thing I want to remind you of. I accept six months is a long time, so I would support allowing another review in three months if we can agree on specific goals. This is the exact opposite of putting me on the 'right path' for six months later. You do realize Sandstein put this additional ban here to either get to indef block me for no reason or silence me for so long it is technically an indef block, right? In fact, even the mention of the ban is forbidden, so we won't be able to "hash this out" on any talk pages. There is no reason why this ban should still exist. I can accept not getting to edit AA pages now. I've been extremely tolerant and patient toward these admin games. But another half year might be my limit. The way I see it I've already done the time and now just have to do the edits on more non-AA articles, which I'm willing to do. But if I'm going to wait longer, I at least deserve reason to believe this ban can be removed, and having appeal rights taken away is not very promising. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 04:12, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

User:CT Cooper There is a community consensus. Both you and Penwhale are in favor of it and all the other admins have claimed reasons why I shouldn't be able to edit, not appeal. Your talk page is not open to me. You don't seem to realize I'm under a gag rule. I have included Sandy's add-on ban in my appeal and have gotten two people in favor of it and none against it. In fact Ed has called you the authority behind the ban. I won't ask for anything else, but there is no reason from any perspective why this can't be removed. --TheShadowCrow (talk) 00:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by EdJohnston

• From someone like TheShadowCrow who has been in so much trouble in the past we would expect a very persuasive appeal. For instance a clear change of heart. I'm uninvolved for purpose of this appeal since I didn't issue the sanction, though I have interacted with him in the past as an admin. (His current topic ban was issued by User:CT Cooper in 2012). The record suggests that he needs to be given very clear sanctions, since he misunderstood the sports exception and the vandalism exception. As recently as November 2013 TheShadowCrow was in trouble for edit warring at Joel Osteen. User:Qwyrxian stated, "It really seems to me that you are simply unable to adjust to the sort of collaborative processes needed to work on a wiki." This is not a good omen for letting him resume unrestricted editing on AA topics. EdJohnston (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sandstein

I'm reproducing the entries in the WP:ARBAA2 log that pertain to TheShadowCrow:

• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) banned from all articles and discussions covered under ARBAA2 per this AE thread. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) blocked for just over six days for violation of the ARBAA2 topic ban. CT Cooper · talk 19:27, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) blocked for one month for violating the topic ban again by editing the Mount Ararat article where there was no obvious vandalism. Add to that edit-warring and incivility towards other users (accusation of racism). De728631 (talk) 23:29, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) is banned from all articles and discussions covered under ARBAA2 indefinitely per this notification. This is an extension of the previous 6 month topic ban above. CT Cooper · talk 11:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
  • TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs)'s topic ban was modified by User:CT Cooper on September 2, 2012, in the following manner: "Sports men and women and other general sports articles which happen to be based in Armenia, as long as it does not concern any political or cultural controversy, should be okay although you should still exercise caution."--Bbb23 (talk) 23:44, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
    • The above amendment is rescinded as of the 25 July 2013 on grounds that the statement was intended to be a clarification to the topic ban, not an amendment, but it has become apparent that it was the latter in practice and furthermore, it is clear that TheShadowCrow is having difficulties following the topic ban, so it should remain as simple as possible. CT Cooper · talk 20:53, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
      • An appeal to WP:AE against that rescission is declined, and TheShadowCrow is additionally restricted in the frequency of any appeals not to the Arbitration Committee.  Sandstein  10:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Due to misuse, the de facto exemption to reverting obvious vandalism in the ARBAA2 area no longer applies to the restrictions imposed on TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs). TheShadowCrow may notify an active administrator if he notices obvious vandalism which hasn't been immediately reverted. "Obvious vandalism" is defined as vandalism of which no knowledge or commentary of the article topic is required to identify. Any vandalism reports which raise issue with the encyclopedic content of an ARBAA2 article will be in violation of the restrictions. Notification CT Cooper · talk 10:35, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
• TheShadowCrow (talk · contribs) is blocked for 3 months for creating a sock-puppet account to evade ARBAA2 editing restrictions. CT Cooper · talk 13:16, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

In view of this and TheShadowCrow's very long block log, I don't anticipate anything but more trouble if any sanctions are lifted, and would decline the appeal. (To the extent it matters, I consider myself uninvolved for the purposes of this appeal, except to the extent that TheShadowCrow also appeals my admin actions, which, it appears from the above, consist only of limiting the frequency of appeals against the other sanctions.)  Sandstein  17:59, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Bbb23

I no longer know whether I'm involved when it comes to TSC, so I'll err on the side of caution and post here. TSC's appeal should be rejected. He has never done anything to demonstrate that he is capable of editing responsibly since being banned. Over and over he asks for the ban to be lifted, promising to be better, but expecting others to take him at his word despite being told repeatedly that he must first edit outside of his topic area in a collaborative and constructive fashion. Nor does he respond well to such rejections, engaging in wikilawyering and unfounded accusations against those who do not agree with him. If he expended even half of the energy he spends on attempting to have the ban lifted on improving the project, he might find things would go better. This is a pretty straightforward case.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:38, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

I'll add more "concrete" data, although some has already been provided. From September 2013 until now, TSC has edited six articles. They have edited two article talk pages. The majority of his edits have been to Joel Osteen, both the article and the talk page. He seemed to be combative in November of last year but has edited more constructively (that's based on a cursory inspection) this year.

It's an improvement, I think, over previous behavior, but not a particularly compelling record for six months. I understand if real life interferes with his ability to edit, but then it shouldn't matter that much to him if he can't edit the articles he wants to edit because he doesn't have that much time here anyway. Unfortunately, the burden is on him to demonstrate convincingly that the ban should be lifted.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:44, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by CT Cooper

I'm commenting here due to my previous extended involvement with TSC, though since July 2013 other admins have taken over the task of supervising TSC due to myself being inactive on Misplaced Pages. However, I have still kept a general eye on what has been going on and TSC has sometimes contacted me on my talk page to express frustration with the sanctions. I have advised TSC in the past that the best way to get the sanctions lifted was to prove himself in other areas, which hasn't happened, though I acknowledge that TSC has been busy with college. Despite the many bumps in the road I do think TSC has become a more constructive editor and understands better why some of his past behaviour was unacceptable – particularly when compared to when the sanctions were first imposed in July 2012. However, there are still issues which have already been highlighted by other users here, particularly when it comes to collaborating with other editors in contentious areas. It is clear that TSC has strong views on issues relating to Armenia-Azerbaijan and I think he should examine whether it would ever be appropriate for him to edit in those topic areas extensively, regardless of whether or not he is allowed to do so.

My overall view at this time is that I cannot say confidentially that if the sanctions were lifted, there wouldn't be problems, so I cannot recommend that they be lifted at this time. However, I remain open minded to narrowing them if the case can be made for that. CT Cooper · talk 16:17, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

@TheShadowCrow: Well lets look at this from an admin point-of-view shall we, if myself or other admins recommend the sanctions are lifted, and then you cause a huge amount of trouble in the Armenia-Azerbaijan area, then said admins will at best get a heavy trout slapping, at worst a heavy whale slapping. This is as much about building trust than anything else, and continuing to push this idea that there is a great admin conspiracy against you, particularly when I have told you not to do so, does not help matters. Nor does emotional rhetoric about how we should give you an indefinite block. If you are unhappy about how things are, you are ultimately free to leave the project, or you can stay and edit any topic area except Armenia-Azerbaijan topics. These sanctions are hardly a terrible burden to bear.

Yes you were told to go and edit other article areas, and yes you have done so, however the Joel Osteen case is not exactly a gleaming example – your behaviour there was better than it has been before, but it was hardly commendable. You did listen to the warming that was given, but why was such a warning necessary in the first place? The concept that we discuss things on the talk page rather than engage edit warring should be one of the first things a new editor learns. You should have known better. It also appears you still don't know what vandalism is, despite having been told multiple times. Furthermore, while the conversation on the talk page was ultimately productive, some remarks you made, particularly your opening comment, were unhelpfully antagonistic in places – it was fortunate that other editors choose only to respond to the substance.

I notice you seem to very desperate for these sanctions to be lifted and your comments indicate you have few other interests. That in itself, worries me. My instinct tells me that you will behave differently when editing Armenia-Azerbaijan articles in which you are interested in and have strong views over, against those you don't care much about at all. I also notice that whenever I get onto whether it is appropriate for you to edit Armenia-Azerbaijan article, you dodge the issue. I have to ask myself why that is? Are your motives here that of an activist or that of an encyclopediaist? We could with me more of the latter, not of the former. Perhaps it would be helpful if you shared with us why you are so keen for these sanctions to be lifted. What articles do you want to edit and what improvements do you want to make?

You asked for specific goals; I think that's a good idea. As a start I would like you see you substantially improve at least one article with some contentious content, by moving it up at least one grade on the assessment scale and resolving any disagreements on the talk page, while not receiving any justifiable complaints of misconduct from other editors. The more articles you cover, the more improvements you make, and less complaints you receive, the more likely the sanctions will be lifted. I accept six months is a long time, so I would support allowing another review in three months if we can agree on specific goals. CT Cooper · talk 23:02, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

On the canvassing issue, I was also contacted about this appeal by The Shadow Crow. However, the use of my username meant I had already been alerted to this discussion via the notifications system, and I was already planning to comment either today or tomorrow. On this comment, I can see that it wasn't neutral but I don't see it as any more than a technical breach of WP:CANVASS, since he was after all, contacting an admin that blocked him. It most certainly isn't grounds, on its own, to dismiss the appeal and to make TheShadowCrow wait another six months – a mild warning on WP:CANVASS will be sufficient. CT Cooper · talk 23:18, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

@Cailil: I did say it was canvassing, but I also said that dismissing the appeal purely on those grounds in general wasn't a good idea; a warning was sufficient, and I stand by that. I'm familiar with TSC's history and I did indeed have to let other admins take over supervising TSC as I was no longer able to on my own for reasons which I'm not getting into here, but I will make clear that were completely unrelated to anything that happened with TSC. Even before I handed things over, I had already decided that I wasn't going to lift the ban unilaterally due to the situation's complexity and the fact that I wasn't the original ban imposer – that being The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs). I have at no point in this discussion deviated from that position.

I believe my positions on this issue has been fair, and have and will express my opinions on this subject independent of anyone else, including TSC and yourself. With the greatest of respect, I am not stupid and I know what TSC was trying to do when he was suddenly friendly to me as soon as other admins took over supervising the sanctions. However, if we're only going to have an appeal every six months, then I believe it should be done properly and it should end when it's ready to end, not before.

I've been through it already, but since this issue seems to be lingering, the "sports exception" was just me attempting to clarify my interpretation of the ban, which I still believe was reasonable. However, at least a plurality of admins at the time interpreted the ban to have a wider scope than I had intended, and that's when the problems really started, as different admins were on different wavelengths. My mistake was not to make absolutely clear what I thought was imposing on TSC when I did so. I was also arguably wrong not to stand-up for my own positions and actions on the issue, but at the time I simply wasn't in a state to have a big argument over it, nor did I think this would help TSC become a productive editor.

I stand by my recommendation for TSC to be given general goals on how to get the sanctions lifted. Simply telling him every six months "it's not good enough" isn't fair, as NE Ent has rightly pointed out. I don't think issues around him thinking his entitled to have the ban lifted will be a serious problem if we made clear that the edits he makes are subject to our review and judgement before any sanctions are lifted or changed. I also stand by my open minded position on reducing the length between appeals to three months, if specific goals are given. Six months seems a long time to me and it being the "standard length" does not prevent exceptions.

Unfortunately for personal reasons and due to other Wikimedia related demands on my shoulders, I cannot give constant supervision to TSC, but I will advise him when he asks for it and comment in appeals, due to my past involvement.

@TheShadowCrow: The problem with the argument your making there is the reason you haven't caused trouble in the AA topic area for a while is because of the sanctions, so turning it into an argument for lifting them is analogous to arguing that because there hasn't been any recent bank robberies in a town for a while, the law against bank robberies should be repealed. Having passion doesn't make you any more of less trustworthy, as it's what your passion drives you to do that matters. To be clear on the activist vs. encyclopediast issue, I'm not saying that you can't have views on topics that you edit, as that's often unavoidable. The real issue is whether you let those views impact on your judgement. In some of your past edits, it's clear that it did. On Joel Osteen, yes I'm afraid in forums such as this people will tend to focus on the negatives, which is why you need to minimise them. I do count multiple reverts by you in the history, so you were edit warring. I think it would be best if you learnt the lessons and put it behind you.

It's good to hear that you intend to be more mindful on what AA areas you intend to edit, but just your reassurances won't cut it with me I'm afraid, and regardless of what I think, there is very little chance that a consensus will develop to repeal the AA ban at this time. Furthermore, I can't see a consensus developing to either narrow the sanctions or increase the allowed frequencies of appeals. The best that can be aimed for here will probably be some goals or similar to work for next time round. CT Cooper · talk 22:25, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

@Cailil: There is no need for apologies, but thanks anyway. I see what you mean on the stick issue, but I think he'll claim a entitlement to have the ban lifted regardless of whether or not we set general goals. I'm also coming to the conclusion that this appeal is running out of steam and that other admins have no interest in changing the sanctions, so I now agree that there's little point continuing on this path, unless some other admins start speaking-up. I've got my own problems at the moment to sort out, and I would rather not take back primary responsibility for the sanctions, but it looks like I'm the only person in a good position to do so at this time. The saying "if you want something done, do it yourself" comes to mind and it is clear that TSC could do with my services, so I will talk to him on his talk page as soon as this appeal closes on a way forward.

@TheShadowCrow: I think your misreading what I'm saying in a number of ways. Please read my comments carefully before replying, preferably multiple times.

I'm not saying that your lack of edits to AA topics should be counted against you, that would be silly. What I am saying though is the mere lack of edits to that topic area is not grounds to lift the sanctions, since it could also indicate that they are working. Ironically though, I have little objection to your analogy. In many countries these days prisoners have to serve an indefinite sentence until they can demonstrate while in prison that they are safe for release. Similarly, you will have to demonstrate while under topic ban that you can be trusted to edit AA articles. I'm not saying that's easy.

This discussion with you over edit warring seems be very much like the one we had over vandalism, and shows you still have a problem with accepting and understanding policy properly. There is indeed no policy explicitly against reverting other's edits, but reverting other users multiple times when you know that there is disagreement with your edits is edit warring, even if the three revert rule isn't technically violated. Policy is very clear that there is no entitlement to revert three times. It's called the bold, revert, discuss cycle not the bold revert revert revert discuss cycle for a good reason. You should have taken it to the talk page after the first revert, not later.

On your second paragraph, I'm not sure what you're talking about. I've not backtracked on my views regarding the gaps between appeals and I have neither directly argued for or against giving you a proper "sports exemption" – I've simply explained the history behind the issue. The only other things I said was that it was unlikely the topic ban would be lifted or narrowed at the present time, regardless of my views on the subject. Given that no other admins seem interested in making changes to any of the sanctions and noting that this appeal seems to be running out of steam, that seems even more true now than it was yesterday. I'm afraid I'm not backtracking on my position that I will not make unilateral changes to the ban.

I didn't ask you to get any articles to good article status, my goal was just to simply improve one or more articles by one assessment grade. I didn't "promise" specific goals, but I did give my support to the idea. Regardless, it looks like we're going to have to hash this out on your talk page. I will try to put you on the right path for another appeal in six months, presuming you're still happy to make some improvements to some non-AA topics. If you're ready to have the sanctions lifted before then, I will give my support to an appeal directly to the Arbitration Committee. CT Cooper · talk 19:48, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

@TheShadowCrow: I have told you very clearly that I am not a position to lift the sanctions. I cannot lift or modify the ban on editing AA topics unilaterally as the issue has become too complicated and another admin would likely re-instate any ban I remove. Furthermore, no circumstances could I unilaterally overturn Sandstein's restriction on appeals – it is strictly forbidden to reverse an admin's arbitration action without clear community consensus or Arbitration Committee approval. The reality, whether your accept it or not, is that you are indefinitely banned from editing AA articles. Indefinite means just that – the ban stays until it is ready to be lifted, whether that be in six months, six years, or never. There is no such thing as a right or entitlement to having the ban lifted; in fact there is no right or entitlement to editing Misplaced Pages at all. That is a privileged that can be withdrawn or restricted as the community sees fit.

It's unfortunate that in this discussion old problems have come back to the surface. One seems to be a tendency by you to read people's comments, particularly mine, in a way which tells you what you want to hear rather than what is actually said. I may have been less harsh to you on this forum than some other admins, but that never meant I was going to fight to the end to have the sanctions lifted or modified. Yes, I do remember saying "I accept six months is a long time, so I would support allowing another review in three months if we can agree on specific goals." and I know there is nothing I have said since which is inconsistent with that statement. One can support reducing the length between appeals while at the same time accepting pragmatic reality of the situation, which is that it will only happen if others agree, which they don't at the moment. Also note that by "we", I meant yourself, myself, and admins that have commented. Since we have not come to an agreement on specific goals, that comment is irrelevant.

I'm really not interested in emotional rhetoric from you over how you're apparently under a "technical indef block" and how you just can't handle being under the sanctions for another six months. At the end of the day TSC, when push comes to shove, you brought these sanctions on yourself and they're your problem, not mine. I've offered to give up my time to give you some support to improve your chances on another appeal in six months, which will involve you making improvements to non-AA articles. I don't accept your interpretation of Sandstein's restriction on appealing, and I can see no problem in us discussing the issue, making goals e.t.c. If you're not interested, fine. If you want to leave the project, fine. I'm not going to loose sleep over the issue, but if you change your mind, my talk page will remain open. CT Cooper · talk 13:52, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Wow. Tough crowd. So what it comes down to is due to a solitary screw-up in just under six months The Shadow Crow must remain sanctioned? Did you notice how they didn't whine and wikilawyer after the warning at User_talk:TheShadowCrow#Joel_Osteen. Did you see how they worked a making a GA (which I guess is supposed to be important around here), and used a sandbox to get their edits in place before moving in mainspace?

Well, if you're going to be setting hoops they have to jump through, ya'll could at least have the decency to be a little more concrete. How many drama free mainspace edits, or many articles do you want them to work on before the next appeal? Anything else? GA? FA? NE Ent 18:47, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Crow, I said strictly, not unfairly -- Misplaced Pages doesn't "do fair," sorry. How about we all agree Shadow Crow makes some non-trivial editing to at least twenty different articles over the next six months? We can define "non-trivial" as sufficient editing to remove some of those ugly tags from the tops of articles -- that will give them opportunity to interact with other editors to reach agreement enough work has been done to remove the tags. Obviously no edit warring. NE Ent 22:12, 2 March 2014 (UTC) (This would include, per Penwhale's interpretation, discussion on article talk page leading to such improvements) NE Ent 00:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Pinging the admin who blocked you is canvassing now? That's a reach ... I'm certainly not seeing the polite note asking TSC to stop the guideline suggest how to respond. NE Ent 22:25, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by TheShadowCrow

Result of the appeal by TheShadowCrow

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Eh... I'd like to see a bit more activity in other areas (there are less than 70~80 edits since September 2013, to which today would make exactly 6 months) before considering granting this appeal. - Penwhale | 20:56, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

• @TheShadowCrow: I understand there may be other underlying situations, but I still would like to see you being a bit more active in other areas as the lack of other edits make someone who is trying to assess the situation neutrally hard to do so due to lack of proof. If you would voluntarily set some conditions if the tobic-ban is removed then it may be easier to convince me. (Basically: Without edits in other area I'm not fully convinced that we should outright lift the existing restrictions.) - Penwhale | 00:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• For transparency, TSC posted at my talk page. I do think there's a need for appeals to be only heard every X months, but I'm willing to offer this: That we will hear an appeal sooner than 6 months from now if it can be shown that TSC has made significant positive edits in other areas. - Penwhale | 05:28, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Replying to NE Ent, I see contribution to 6 article pages and 1 additional talk page of an article since TSC came off block. Among the 81 edits since the expiration of block, 27 were to main articles and 13 to article pages - of which 14/12 were to Joel Osteen and Talk:Joel Osteen. It's a good thing that TSC is trying to raise the Osteen article to GA, but when you make fewer than 50 edits on mainspace/talk page in a 6-month span - and that half of said edits are to a singular article (and its talk page), the activity level is simply not there to justify us loosening the current sanctions. If we count the sandbox edits (which there are 17), then the number comes out to 43 edits related to Osteen - and that's more than half of the edits during this time. I'd like to see TSC's edits spread out a bit more in the main space across different topic areas. It's unfair for me to ballpark a number, but I just think the edits are not spread out across different areas enough for me to suggest altering the sanctions. I also agree with Cailil that TSC's edits to people on their talk pages (instead of putting them here) is troublesome and can be construed as canvassing. Based on this, I have to strike my statement which suggested loosening the appeal intervals. - Penwhale | 21:01, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• @TSC: The fact is, for an appeal process to be judged fairly everyone needs to be on the same page; there's a reason why I said that my talk page is not a suitable location in my reply to you there.
• @NE Ent: I would have had no problem if TSC alerted CT Cooper and Cailil when the appeal is being made. The issue I have is the fact that TSC asked them (on their talk page) to post here after DangerousPanda's comment below that leaned towards declining the appeal. That being said, I would have no problem with your suggestion with one change to it: that non-trivial participation in discussions on the talk page would count towards the number (i.e. TSC doesn't actually have to make the actual edits on the article pages provided that significant participation on talk page can be proven). - Penwhale | 23:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• Any appeal such as this must link to a) significant positive edits outside of the area of the topic ban, and b) positive interactions with others. I see very few edits, and I even see a handful of very problematic ones. The "readiness test" has not been met DP 21:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• Under the apparent impression that I would alter consensus here in favour of his appeal TheShadowCrow has asked me to comment . In so doing he's just breached WP:Canvass. That alone is reason to refuse - this is not a game TheShadowCrow.

  DangerousPanda has made an excellent post above me and I support their view. Contrary to Penwhale given the level of problematic behaviour here I do think a minimum of 6 months for another appeal is appropriate given the level of trust TSC needs to rebuild and given the time it will take to demonstrate the kind of change in attitude both I and DangerousPanda are outlining here. After that initial 6 months, on the basis that some objective, and evident progress is made, then and in that case I'd be happy to see appeals after improvement rather than definite lengths of time--Cailil 14:19, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Penwhale & @NE Ent, a looser wording but still within the same bracket would be "after 6 months of positive substantial contributions to wikipedia TheShadowCrow may appeal again." Indefinite topic bans cannot, by definition, be timed out & 70 edits (including his edits to this thread) is just not enough for a judgement reversing well founded AE actions. These actions are lifted when they are demonstrably no longer necessary. TSC needs to show consistently that he can keep cool and has indeed developed a WP:CLUE--Cailil 12:04, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• Unless there is a major change to consensus here I'll close this thread in 24 hours with the result as declined and with the wording: "TheShadowCrow may appeal again after 6 months of positive substantial contributions to wikipedia"--Cailil 16:48, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

  CT Cooper with the greatest of respect asking a sysop to "say something positive" (and thus change consensus) is obvious canvassing (or "asking the other parent"). Overall his behaviour here is also an example of the same pattern of behaviour indulged in by TSC since July 2013.

  TSC is appealing not just his topic-ban to AA2 but also the resultant sanctions based on his continuing misbehaviour after that ban was issued. TSC has made 70 edits since the last sanction. He has also had a history of wasting the community's time with appeals. Given all of this behaviour there is not sufficient evidence of reform to make any judgment over-turning either the topic-ban or (and this is important) Sandstein's restriction on TSC's appeals. Giving TSC six months in light of the above gives TSC a chance to work elsewhere on WP productively. How and ever, specific goals are less important than an overall and demonstrable change in attitude. TSC's use of the term "conspiracy" above is not a good sign and I would be extremely wary of laying out an apparent yellow brick road that on completion TSC would believe he is entitled to be unbanned - this is not the case. TSC's behaviour has to change first. As you outlined above even the recent positive edits by TSC are not up to scratch in terms of behaviour (conduct towards others).

  Also it is my view that the situation regarding TSC has become so complex (because CT you were not in a position to react to the situation in Autumn 2013) and other sysops had to become involved, and since then TSC has used your good will (as the original topic-banning admin) to attempt to frustrate policy and process with regard to teh subsequent sanctions. Things are confusing enough as is. It is my advice that it should take a consensus of sysops (both involved and uninvolved) to change or set any condition for modification of TSC's sanctions, now or in the future. There are too many well founded individual but interlocking AE actions taken by separate admins for one sysop to unilaterally reverse them all, or to give the impression to TSC that one sysop could do that. --Cailil 13:18, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

  
  As it stands there is no reason to overturn any of the sanctions appealed and in light of TSC's restriction on excessively frequent appeals 6 months (which btw is the normal length between appeals) remains appropriate. If you wish to give TSC general guidance on what might help his talk page might be a better forum. I will close this in a further 24 hours unless there is a change to consensus - I'm leaving it open purely so that TSC understands what's going on--Cailil 15:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

• CT Cooper I apologize if my above comment to you came off as patronizing - that was not my intent nor is it my intent to "gag" any advice you wish to TSC but I'm wary of the impact that unintentionally giving TSC a stick to beat other admins with would have in such a complex web of AE sanctions. I'm just pointing out that TSC could (& in my view, given his last comment above, HAS already) misinterpret "general goals" as an absolute formula for unblock (look at his comment to penwahle and Ed "I have done everything I was asked to"). Also I'm not sure if other people noticed this edit changing the grounds for appeal above - naming yours as the only admin action being appealed (which is not the case as it was heard or as it is expressed) while making a long comment.

  If he follows your good advice - great! But there's no reason for this appeal thread to remain open, that advice can be given via his talk page. I'll leave this open till midnight (UTC) 8/3/14 for replies. BUT consensus formed here 4 days ago. Finally in the case of an extraordinary reform on TSC's part he could appeal to ArbCom directly before the 6 months mark - his restriction is only to AE & community appeals, he can appeal to the Committee at any time--Cailil 09:34, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Askahrc

Tom Butler

Pigsonthewing

Interfase

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Interfase

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Hablabar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 20:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Interfase (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

• Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

• 2 March 2014 violation of topic ban

• 3 March 2014 violation of topic ban

• 4 March 2014 violation of topic ban

• 5 March 2014 violation of topic ban

• 5 March 2014 violation of topic ban

History of sanctions:

• Put under indefinite 1RR in AA2 16 October 2014 by EdJohnston (talk · contribs)

• Warned on 25 February 2014 by Hablabar (talk · contribs)

• Put under indefinite AA2 topic ban

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User:Interfase has been routinely violating his topic ban from AA2 largely construed . He has never admitted his misdeeds because of which he was banned, and never expressed any remorse for any misconduct in the past or present all the while continuing making most controversial edits in AA2's most controversial articles, such as Black January and Khojaly Massacre Memorial in Berlin.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Actually, there is no evidence that anybody has "vacated" Interfase's topic ban. Your topic ban is still in place. It looks like that HJ Mitchell was simply entertaining this idea, in a questions-and-replies session, as a theoretical possibility. That's it. But the thing is that even before HJ Mitchell was playing with this idea, Interfase had been violating the ban already. And vacating Interfase's topic ban would therefore be a reward for not taking the topic ban seriously. Hablabar (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Discussion concerning Interfase

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Interfase

Actually HJ Mitchell vacated the topic ban. Thus, I don't see in my edits any violations. --Interfase (talk) 08:09, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong. My topic ban is not still in place. It was vacated by an admin, who made this sanction. Also user HJ Mitchell was informed about my edits as we had a conversation on his talk page. I don't still understand why do you want to isolate me from editing. The only reason of topic ban was my problem with conduct as I claimed your edits as "vandalism". But I was warned by Mitchell and I promised that I won't accuse somebody in vandalism. After that I didn't do this. So what is the problem?. --Interfase (talk) 17:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Interfase

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

This should be addressed by HJ Mitchell, who is the admin who issued the ban, and who has been in communication with Interfase about this.  Sandstein  09:02, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to say that HJ Mitchell offered to revise the restriction 3 days ago, but it was not acknowledged by Interfase formally and thus from an enforcement point of view the topic ban was not formally lifted. This doesn't take into consideration that Hablabar objected to it here and here, which did not receive replies from HJ Mitchell. I'm going to reimpose the topic ban for the time being until HJ Mitchell can address this. - Penwhale | 00:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

@Interfase: It seems very clear to me that HJ Mitchell did not vacate your topic ban but was asking for your opinion on the conditions he proposed (which is what he said). I'm happy to put this down to a misunderstanding, however you should note that if you make any further edits in violation of the ban until you are offically told that the ban has been lifted on your talk page will lead to blocks. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 00:24, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

• For the record, I left Interfase a note on his talk page to this effect. - Penwhale | 00:30, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

• @Interfase: I was willing to vacate the topic ban, but you had to formally accept the revised conditions that I proposed. The topic ban is in place until either I tell you on your talk page that it is not, or you successfully appeal it. I will leave it to other admins to decide whether you should be sanctioned for the violation, but at the very least, you're skating on thin ice. After this AE thread is closed, you can come back to my talk page and tell me whether you're willing to accept the restrictions I proposed in lieu of the topic ban. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 10:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

CammieD