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14 March 2014

Jews and Communism

Jews and Communism (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I request deletion of this article.

The vote for deletion was 22 in favor, three to merge into other articles, and 14 to keep, The administrator closed the discussion with "no consensus". The administrator erred in dismissing the consensus that the lack of neutrality in the article was irreparable and erred in saying no one could say the topic was not notable. In fact sources were provided that no comprehensive study of the subject had ever been undertaken. The administrator also said that there was no consensus that the article was a POV fork, although many editors said it was, and few disagreed.

TFD (talk) 05:55, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• The way this article was originally constructed in tone and purpose it read, and essentially still does read, more like an "indictment" and "blame sheet" that would make the Jew-hating Jew Watch proud, rather than as a well-balanced presentation of a factual why and how things came to be. Having been one of those that suggested this article be merged into History of Communism, in light of the recent surprising "no consensus" decision I have recently tried to edit certain sections for a better historical balance and perspective, more objectivity, and adherence to core WP:NPOV. It is not an easy job! That being said, User TFD has a very valid point: It is unfair and very strange that with 22 votes in favor of deletion, three to merge (meaning also opposing the retention of the article) versus 14 keeps, therefore the keeps are outnumbered almost two to one, that that is somehow "no consensus". Simply based on the recent vote the article should have been deleted as User TFD requests. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 06:25, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. 06:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC) IZAK (talk) 06:34, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse WP:DELPRO#Consensus explains that "Consensus is formed through the careful consideration, dissection and eventual synthesis of each side's arguments, and should not be calculated solely by the balance of votes." The close was a model of such careful consideration and the finding that there was no consensus seems quite reasonable. The complaint that achieving a simple majority of !votes for deletion did not result in deletion seems to misunderstand the nature of consensus which requires broad agreement. Andrew (talk) 06:38, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose No evidence has been furnished that the "delete" arguments were not firmly based on well-established policies and guidelines. Andrew Davidson correctly points out that a simple vote count is not the proper method for decision. But when the Ivotes in favor of deletion are so overwhelming, it is incumbent on the closer to explain why so many good faith votes, seemingly based on policies and guidelines, have been discounted. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:48, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• @TFD "The administrator said that there was no consensus that the article was a POV fork, although many editors said it was, and few disagreed." Actually, many disagreed - including yourself, TFD. Since The Four Deuces insists on pushing this line of argument, I will point out again he has removed the subject from the Jewish Bolshevism article on grounds that it is a separate topic. To quote exactly:

"The fact that some Jews became Communists and the conspiracy theory are two separate topics." --TFD, 11 September 2013

He then posted an RfC to show that the Jewish Bolshevism article is indeed solely about the conspiracy theory . Having succeeded in deleting the sourced info through said argument, he nominated the new article for deletion - on grounds that its a POVFORK of Jewish Bolshevism. As incredible as that may sound. Having failed that, he now proceeds to bother people here on WP:DELREV. Presumably if the article had indeed been deleted on grounds of being a FORK, he would then claim its a "separate topic" once more (or whatever might serve to keep it out).

This is little more than WP:WIKILAWYERING to push a distinct agenda, namely deleting the text from Misplaced Pages. The arguments, from the alleged POVFORK (rendered nonsensical by TFD's own consensus ), on to the WP:BATHWATER claims that the article is "unsalvageable" - are spurious and biased. Most "delete" votes were hysterical WP:IDONTLIKEIT exclamations instigated by TFD's own inflammatory presentation of the article as "attempting to justify a Nazi conspiracy theory" (which imo constitutes a particularly heinous personal attack as well, against a long-time contributor). As regards claims that "no comprehensive study of the subject had ever been undertaken", they are manifestly untrue. Though I suppose one could theoretically extend the definition of "comprehensive study" far enough to delete this entire project.

In short, RoySmith perceived the situation very accurately: the basic deletion rationale was manifestly absurd (with a contradicting consensus established by the nominator himself), and the rest of the arguments amount to a hill of beans as far as our policy is concerned. -- Director (talk) 08:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

I genuinely don't understand what is TFD trying to do. RoySmith's rational went above and beyond the call of duty explaining exactly his logic for closing it as no consensus. At this point I honestly believe this is a very WP:POINTY attempt to get rid of this article at all cost (even after he himself formed an RFC explicitly eliminating that content from the article; now claiming it's a fork?). --CyberXRef 10:22, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Yah. He's directly contradicting his own position and the talkpage consensus he pushed through. He refuses even to offer some sort of explanation. Not that I myself believe there's any mystery as to what is being attempted. Its just WP:IDONTLIKEIT. He thinks the research is "antisemitic", views Producer is some kind of Nazi (which is ridiculous), and wants his work deleted from the project by any available means, policy be damned. -- Director (talk) 19:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

What TFD said or did is irrelevant for this discussion. Otherwise the article should be delete because TFD proposed so.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:52, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Of course its relevant: TFD established a consensus on the Jewish Bolshevism article to the effect that the relevant data is not part of its scope. Hence the article is manifestly not a FORK. Its also relevant as it demonstrates bad faith. Much like its relevant that you, Antid, are merely doing your usual business of following me around and opposing whatever I say as a sort of petty revenge for opposing you on previous discussions.. -- Director (talk) 19:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse The closing rationale provides a good summary of the "discussion" and no consensus looks entirely appropriate to me. Many thanks to Roy for taking this on. Thincat (talk) 08:57, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per Cullen. GabrielF (talk) 10:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• In a moment I'm going to argue that we should overturn to delete. But before I do, I want applaud Roy Smith for that excellent close. We have far too many sysops who, faced with that debate, would have used some quite forced reasoning to get to a definite conclusion. Roy Smith avoided this and did exactly what sysops are supposed to do. His closing statement is very good. It shows a thoughtful and impartial analysis of the debate. With the vast majority of articles, I would have been wholeheartedly endorsing it. (I've had occasion to analyse a few of Roy Smith's closes at DRV lately and I'm starting to find that he stands quite high in my esteem.)

  But. The history of anti-semitism is one of those fraught topic areas that Misplaced Pages's consensus-seeking processes don't handle very well. What can arise in a fraught topic area is a "first-mover advantage", where one faction, clique or splinter group, genuinely believing themselves to be in the right, writes something that suits them, and then an opposing faction, clique or splinter group that also genuinely believe themselves to be in the right can never quite muster enough voting accounts to remove it. This is not a good way to write an encyclopaedia, leading as it does to different pages, paragraphs or sentences belonging to, and being defended by, opposing sides in an environment where no consensus is possible and the best we can manage is a long-term standoff. In such cases it is, very occasionally, in the encyclopaedia's best interests to eliminate the first mover advantage, and to reach a decision rather than a compromise. How can we do that? I think that DRV is the right mechanism because (as it would amaze most people to learn) Misplaced Pages's most robust content management tool is our deletion process. DRV supervises this process so as far as content is concerned, DRV is the "highest court in the land".

  As the "highest court" we're normally very procedure-focused here----we often take the view that it matters that we get to the right result, but it also matters that we get there in the correct way. And I'm often a procedure-focused man, and I often want to ensure that nothing is decided until interested parties have had every opportunity to be heard. I'm not a deletionist, and I'm not a particularly pro-Jewish man either----I'm British, and I'm alert enough to British history to have quite a lot of sympathy for Palestine.

  But contrary to the view I often take, in this particular case I think it's in the best interests of the encyclopaedia to delete this irretrievably antisemitic and POV content. It should not be visible in the history. Of course, as Roy Smith correctly says in his close, Misplaced Pages should cover the subject of Jews and Communism, but this particular content needs to be nuked.—S Marshall T/C 12:12, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

If you believe "this particular content needs to be nuked", then please present a proper argument for that. As I'm sure you're well aware, we generally don't "nuke" reliably-sourced, notable information from this project. And I must say your position falls well withing the topic of WP:ZEAL:

"So an article is not perfect. It is tagged for multiple issues. Its notability is in question. It has few if any references. It has some inaccurate or questionable information. It had loads of original research. But still, it has just the little spark of hope of being a viable article. Well, if this is the case, the deletion process is not the route to take to solve the problems. That's what the talk page is for."

You are certainly correct in pointing out cliques often form on articles and control content. Deletion however, is not a get-out-of-discussion-free card. Its not an alternative to consensus-building on the talkpage. If someone wishes to challenge the data in the article, they should do it properly - not make spurious and self-contradictory claims to try and get the thing deleted as a sort of scam. And that's what this is, really. A kind of "scam". The point of which is probably for TFD to regain the same advantage you speak of, one that he wields and has wielded with considerable effectiveness on the JB article. If he deletes, he can continue to suppress this entire topic by such means. That's really what this is about: apparently he'd rather delete whole articles than challenge standing data. No doubt that would be easier, but permit me to say - it would not be right. -- Director (talk) 20:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Welcome to DRV, Direktor, and thanks for the benefit of your opinion. I've considered it and I remain firmly of the view that this content is irretrievably POV and should not remain in the history. You are of course at liberty to differ.—S Marshall T/C 22:00, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, its a "💕". Nevertheless, I thought it pertinent to point out the above does not represent a policy-relevant deletion rationale. -- Director (talk) 23:21, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• The relevant policy is, of course, NPOV. Given the way this discussion is trending, I would also accept (as a poor second best) "keep the title but completely rewrite the content from scratch" per DGG. I suspect that in practice this would be a rather more difficult task than most rewrites, involving as it would negotiations over each and every sentence with vocal editors who have strong opinions.—S Marshall T/C 12:04, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

I understood you were referring to NPOV, which is why I pointed out POV is not a valid reason for deletion. Even were we all unanimously agreed that the article is antisemitic trash (which we are not), as long as the topic itself is notable - its not a reason to delete the entire article. I am also continuously astounded at how openly folks push for deletion on grounds that discussing the article's issues would be "too much work". Yes. Negotiations. Negotiate; that's what the talkpage is for. Its a difficult subject, but one that seems universally acknowledged as notable and relevant. Though I'm not at all certain there will be some sort of talkpage armageddon: it seems to me there isn't a single user that opposes a rewrite of the article. Producer included. -- Director (talk) 12:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse, as bulk of the deletion votes were literally "I don't like it", "not encyclopedic", and "you're just being antisemitic". The Israeli-Palestine, Jewish-Muslim topic area is fraught with ugliness, bad faith, underhanded tactics, and one of the characteristics of BOTH sides of the POV-Warrior camp is that neither like articles that are critical of their side. It is neither antisemitic nor Islamophobic for the encyclopedia to host articles that may be critical of Jewish and Islamic issues, as long as the critical eye is reliably sourced and adheres to NPOV. The other potentially legitimate argument made was that it was a pov fork of Jewish Bolshevism, but it was pointed out in the AfD that that article's focus is more on the conspiracy theory angle, while this is historical/fact-based. I do not see that argument refuted. Tarc (talk) 13:32, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• Ick. This reads like a hit piece and feels more than a bit like it has WP:SYNTH issues. I think a good article could (and should) exist here and much of the data in the article could be used to do so. But they way it is written feels quite wrong. If there was a clean way to get it to a NPOV that would be great, but given the numbers of editors involved, it seems unlikely. I've got to give a weak endorse here. The closer explained things well and their reading of the discussion is certainly reasonable. That said, I'd have endorsed deletion per WP:NUKE and the !vote count. I think that would have been a better outcome. I do hope that clueful folks can put down the sticks and improve this article so that it provides context (both before and after the revolution). Hobit (talk) 14:16, 14 March 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose the administrator was right to close the discussion and accurately summed up the deletion debate that had taken place to reach the decision of "no consensus". 23 editor (talk) 15:23, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Hmm shouldn't it be Endorse not Oppose? The instructions say "Endorse the original closing decision"? --CyberXRef 18:40, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

• Endorse I !voted for keep in the discussion, though with several qualifications that almost made it mean delete and rewrite. The one thing from the entire discussion which was really clear, was that there was no consensus about what to do with the article. There was not consensus to do what I wanted to do, nor was there consensus for anything else. The only thing I can suggest is that those interested should try to rewrite it, and in a month or two if some people are still dissatisfied, they can bring another AfD. DGG ( talk ) 00:03, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
• Endorse. I think the whole premise of the article is silly, and makes about as much sense as Red haired people and Communism or Left handed people and Terrorism would be. The motives behind some of the editors that have expanded the article are clearly antisemitic. Had I been involved, I'd have had no hesitation in asking for deletion. With that said, given what he had to work with, I think that User:RoySmith made an excellent call in a difficult situation. There is quite clearly no agreement on whether the article is in fact a POV fork, and as the answer to such a question is inherently subjective, a clear consensus is the only real way to proceed. Not having a clear consensus, the discussion should have been closed as no consensus, as it was. Lankiveil 00:58, 15 March 2014 (UTC).
• Endorse basically per Lankiveil. I would have opined for deletion had I seen the AFD but I didn't. Both sides fundamentally disagreed with the arguments being put forward by the other to the point where no clear consensus was reached. RoySmith did what he could with what he had been provided by the community. Nothing in his close suggested the article can't be nominated again. Stalwart111 05:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per 'S Marshall' and 'Cullen' - the article is still a non-encyclopedic essay attack and antisemitic piece and the votes that said this in the previous discussion cannot be dismissed. The article's very title is misleading and inappropriate. With as many as 24 votes in favor of deleting the article, an additional two in favor of merging it, and only 12 in favor of keeping it, it's an outrage that "no consensus" was reached. Why would the opinion of one admin be counted as 13 votes of other informed and reliable editors? Even though editors provided different reasons to delete the article, they're all valid, have equal weight to those opposing them, and need to be counted fairly. A disgrace has been done, and I urge other participants of the previous discussion to share their opinions as well, since serious injustice happened here. Carolmooredc (talk · contribs) Dougweller (talk · contribs) Antidiskriminator (talk · contribs) Altenmann (talk · contribs) Binksternet (talk · contribs) Steeletrap (talk · contribs)Marokwitz (talk · contribs) USchick (talk · contribs) Hot Stop (talk · contribs) AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs) Topdiggie (talk · contribs) Evildoer187 (talk · contribs) AnkhMorpork (talk · contribs) Nomoskedasticity (talk · contribs) Dralwik (talk · contribs) GHcool (talk · contribs) Anonimu (talk · contribs) Johnuniq (talk · contribs) Galassi (talk · contribs). -Yambaram (talk) 12:02, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment, because, AFD is explicitly not a vote and for good reason. Lankiveil 12:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC).
• Overturn - As explained by multiple editors: "reliable sources do not support any meaningful connection between Jewish ethnicity and Communism". That is why I !voted for deletion of this article. Not because it is maybe a POV fork. Whether there is a consensus about this article is POV fork or not is irrelevant. As explained by another editor above, this article "makes about as much sense as Red haired people and Communism or Left handed people and Terrorism would be" --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:10, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
• Overturn to delete Pretty bald faced anti-Semitism, no doubt created by some anti-Semitic crank.--Atlantictire (talk) 14:23, 15 March 2014 (UTC)