Misplaced Pages

So, based on the Eurocentric label put in place by your ancestors and their European descendents, American “Whites” are “White.” People of color did not make the categorized labels on who is white, black, red, yellow and/or brown your ancestors did. You are officially a member of the racist "White" society...Welcome.

Laura, Detroit 25 February 2006

I basically agree with most of the things that you say. It is precisely those who think themselves as the sole descendents of Europeans, who think that they are better because of that, and are so racist, that as you point out, would deny that they also have African or Native American origins. In fact they are so racist that they have managed, by social pressure, that African Americans deny or ignore that they are also 20 per cent of European origin. That does not make them any better: it is just a fact. An American has many reasons to feel proud. It has many reasons to be proud by being just American. They do not need to try and identify in the way they are doing. In an identification system based on something called race, which is used with a lot of social connotations and certainly not soundly based. That is the sick part of American society. I do not agree with the one-drop rule. I am just giving self-called White Americans a taste of their own medicin. Because they are so stupid that they think that they are better because they are "White". And, come on, everyone knows that.

Bullshit. You cannot claim that every white American feels the same way in this or that respect, just as you can't claim the same thing for any other group. Both of you show ignorance when you express prejudice and sweeping assumptions about others as you've done. Everyone thinks differently, and time changes prevalent social ideas. Anonymous person, your "European" home country, whichever one it may be, also harbored racist ideas, as has every other group of people in the world, even if not on an institutional level. Would it be fair for me to point out the ideas of Hitler, or Ferdinand and Isabella, or of the slave traders, and hold you responsible for them? How about if I assumed that everyone in Europe was racist, and would agree with the ideas of the Third Reich or the Spanish Inquisition, or with those that pervaded the Jim Crowe South (even there, not everyone thought or felt similarly). What if I demanded that another society change their identity and the way they see things and interact to suit my ideas because that's the way I think it should be. And why do you care so much about white Americans calling themselves "white". As I've argued, it's not inaccurate, it's just a colloquial term, of no major consequence (to most people, anyway), and one doesn't have to be 100% European (which most white Americans are) to be "white" in the U.S., and that's why you're wrong. You're taking an idea that has it's roots in the American racial Dark Ages (when not everyone agreed with these racial ideas, which characterize this era because they were institutionally sanctioned, not even held by every American) and imposing it on a modern society. Obviously, you're still clueless about American society after having lived here, and you show it by projecting your foreign prejudice on everyone in this country that you don't understand has many facets and many different people who think and feel in many different ways, as every other place does. You're just cherry picking certain aspects of this society in an attempt to justify your prejudice. And you are writing angry rantings because you started this section with ALL! CAPS! AND! EXCLAMATION! MARKS!

Laura, you're so profoundly racist that you really should refrain from speaking here, as your posts are pure hatred. No one should be "ashamed" of being born into a certain group for any reason. All these atrocities did happen, but it's not a new story. People do terrible things to each other, they always have and always will, and that's part of life, whether you're an animal, plant or bacterium. Barbarism is necessary for life and civilization (if not for the creation of it, then certainly for it's maintenance), and it's never going away; so you should abandon your apparent fantasy that malice and violence are deviations from what's natural and normal, and that wherever they show up that someone is to be blamed or hated. Historical Europeans have done terrible things, but that track record is shared with everyone else, whether they have built a civilization and contributed good things to the world or not. As you undoubtedly know, Egypt has given us all great things, but do you really think that Imperial Egypt was all hugs and creativity? It wasn't. They colonized, conquered, destroyed, enslaved and killed (and discriminated based on race), like the Assyrians, Babylonians, Kushites, Hittites, Persians, Arabs, Mongols, Incas, Mayas, Aztecs, Byzantines, Ottomans and various other peoples have, some never having empires. There are two sides to that coin. And although no one has done this as much as Europeans have, that's only because these detrimental effects are magnified by the fact that Europeans have built the largest and most influential empires the world has known, which is normally impressive and prestigious when done by others, but horrible and unspeakable for it's crimes whenever white people did it. That'll change, when the negative repercussions of these European empires fade, and their time is looked at as just another one of human history. Therefore, you should stop hating, and look at everything in it's context, rather from your egocentric black American perspective. I, being a non-Christian, could point a finger at all Christians for certain trespasses and chapters of history that I resent, but I know that not every Christian is hateful or responsible for what other Christians have done. To believe that would be to assume that Christians are more prone to hatred and are responsible for the world's problems, and would be my biased perception from the perspective of my own time and environment. Both of you have anger to vent, but it can be released by simply thinking about these things in realistic terms and understanding them for what they are, rather than by antagonizing other people in your ignorance. --Jugbo 00:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well I think this thread is drifting. I have asserted that "White" Americans are not "White" according to the one drop rule that they themselves created and applied. I am not saying that all Americans believe in it, but as I have quoted above, it still has a significant holding in US society. That is not a personal opinion, it is shared by scholars that I have quoted above. So, this US "White" society should begin to apply their own rule to themselves since they are applying it to others. I think I have done it correctly: that is, quoting and presenting evidence, not personal opinions. In addition, I think these considerations should be introduced in the article, obviously in a proper and respectful way, but stating facts. Jugbo, do not get mad at Laura. If you are an American you will understand how sensitive an article dealing with the white race can be. I did not write the article. The article was written. No one can expect that this issue will not cause controversy. I am also sorry if sometimes I was carried a little away.

White people as a whole did not create the "one drop" rule. It's a rule that was promoted by Lothrop Stoddard and his supporters for a period within a specific cultural context. It did not exist outside the USA. Ironically, its life was actually extended by the civil rights movement which promoted non-white solidarity by attacking categories such as "mulatto", "quadroon" etc, and insisting that all mixed race peoples were "black" as part of a unified political identity. If you look at Australia you see the opposite argument. There it was widely believed that the native ("Aboriginal") peoples should be absorbed by the white settlers by interbreeding, so that they ceased to exist as a visible separate race. In other words, it was not "one drop" makes you non-white, but that "one drop" of Aboriginalness will be invisible in a sea of whiteness. The fact is that there have been many many different models of racial difference, absorbtion, separation etc in different contexts. The problem with what you say is that you extrapolate generalisations about "white people" from a brief bit of the history of the USA. Laura goes further, she projects modern attitudes onto the ancient world, absurdly claiming that the "(Greeks, Romans etc.) modeled a religion (Christianity) to suit their own image (i.e. Caucasian long-haired-blue-eyed Jesus)." So, does she actually think that Greeks and Romans had long hair and blue eyes, or that eye colour has some relevance to how Chrisatianity was modelled? Paul B 04:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The image that sometimes was associated with Jesus was obviously not created by the Greeks or Romans. It was created later in history. But that is another matter, and subject for a long discussion, but I do not want to drift. I am not stating that all Americans created the one drop rule. Obviously all theories are created by individuals. Communist Russians did not create Marxism as a theory, it was created by an individual, but it was obviously embraced by a dominant part of that society. By the same token, it can be argued that the one drop rule continues to be dominant in US White society. It is not a personal perception. I have seen that among a lot of White American friends myself. A lot of friends that were good people and who did not consider themselves racists or at least that is what they said. It is just a mindset that has been implanted in them in such a way that it is just part of the way the see the world. So powerfull continues to be the influence of that theory. But, again, obviously anyone could argue that that is only a personal perception. I do not present my personal opinion. Just look at the article about the one drop rule in this encyclopeadia and its influence today in US society. It is supported by serious scholars. US "white" people are using it to refer to Middle Easterners and others as non-white. I am not speaking about the Government, but about popular culture. So, if they apply it to other people, why not to themselves.

Tsk Tsk Tsk…Jugbo, you just proved a valid point. Anonymous’ stated “how “white” Americans use racial terms as a social marker, not as a racial reality, and how they point out the racial identity of people. “Egocentric black American perspective?” Did you not just justify his claim? Did you not just plaster your racial label on me? A racist, who? At no time in any of my discussions have I claimed that any race was better than another, which is the definition of racism. Nor have I belittled you with name calling, I may have said you are an emotional person, but I never called you any outlandish names nor used profanity to express myself.

What happened to your statement that this site was a free-content encyclopedia - to influence the thoughts and minds of others through democratic education, peer discussions and debate. Why do you get so angry, when questions and/or different views are posted that challenge certain standards or the history of “white” people? Are you the White people’s page watchdog? I have every right to post my opinions on this site’s talk page. The reactions and feedback that I receive from you and others helps me learn and understand how others feel about certain issues. So you can rant and rave all you want, but I am not going anywhere, and I will continue to voice my opinions Jugbo.

Now, for your information the American racial “Dark Ages” is not a bygone era, it’s still prevalent and going strong in today’s modern society, where do you live in a cocoon? Not only is it prevalent here in the States, but it is also a global issue. Do you not remember the recent riots in France this past December, where non-white youths burned the city in protest to the horrendous treatment they were receiving by “white” Europeans?

Are you not reading how a Danish illustrator portrayed Mohammad in cartoons, in which some or all of the cartoons have been reprinted in newspapers in more than fifty other countries, leading to violent protests involving hundreds of deaths, particularly in Muslim countries? These cartoons are just like the American portrayal of Blacks that were drawn with big lips, big buck eyes and/or like monkeys; both are culturally insulting and intended to humiliate people who are different or have different beliefs from white people.

How about how the American media portrayed Katrina hurricane victims as being “refugees” instead of “evacuees”, or how the APR showed white people with a loaf of bread in their hand with a caption that read, “struggling to survive,” yet a Black man’s captioned read that he was “looting a store”. Or how about the bungling Barbara Bush who claimed poverty-stricken refugees who lost everything in Hurricane Katrina were actually better off thanks to the devastating floods and were so happy in their makeshift camps they would rather stay than go back to their impoverished communities.

Did you forget what sparked the recent Cincinnati riots? Racial problems still flourish in America and throughout the planet. I can go on and on pointing out facts to you, but you’ll just claim it as being angry ranting or brush it off by saying that you are not moved or it’s not a new story, which is typical.

To answer your statement, some people are “ashamed” of being born or belonging to a certain group – it’s called self-hatred. White people often people feel ashamed of perceived atrocities committed in the past by their ancestors. This includes colonialism and conflict in the 20th century. White self-hatred is often related to feelings of dissatisfaction about the current capitalistic nature of society and social issues such as income inequality and pollution. It is often argued that evidence of widespread White self-hatred in academic circles is the protection that political correctness offers to all racial or cultural group with the exception of mainstream whites.

Black self-hatred can show itself in the form of embarrassment or shame in those things that are culturally identified with African heritage. It is ingrained in subtle ways from childhood. A person becomes reluctant to share or perpetuate activities or traditions that have in the past cause them pain. They come to hate those things and in extension themselves. There is also personal, Jewish, and gay self-hatred.

In conclusion to your response, history does show how the Assyrians to the Ottomans and others have colonized, conquered, destroyed, enslaved and killed based on race, but I’m glad you cleared it up by stating that no one has done this as much as Europeans, whose “empire” was developed off the plight and destruction of others.

I am very awed by your writing style and I look forward to your response, but this time show more intelligence and avoid the name calling and foul language – it’s not justified.

Laura, Detroit 26 February 2006

Paul B, this is the second time I’ve encountered your poor references to back your statements. I reviewed the Lothrop Stoddard link and it does not validate that this person promoted the one drop rule. It does however state that he authored over two dozen works, most related to race and civilization, echoing the themes of his previous works about the dangers of "colored" peoples against "white" civilization; next time be a bit more accurate.

I never stated that the one drop rule existed outside of the U.S., I stated that it was implemented to categorize people. Since you consistently use a “u” in color, you may live outside of America, so let me clarify the one drop rule’s racist past.

It has been called the most evil rule the U.S. ever devised. It was crafted during one of the most shameful periods in America's history -- the brutal enslavement of African people in the deep South in the 1800s. Wealthy Southern slaveholders (“white” Europeans) wanted to increase their stable of enslaved Africans, so they mandated that anyone with any African blood had to be a slave.

In the post-slavery era, vicious segregationists in many pockets across the U.S. didn't want to live or interact with former slaves (or anyone who resembled them). It was later used by hate-filled segregationists during much of the 1900s in the South and the West. And despite this horrible history, a dwindling segment of local people are trying hard to save it.

The "one-drop rule," which essentially states that if a person has even one African ancestor, that person must categorize him/herself as black. A category called "mulatto" existed for people of mixed racial ancestry, which was generally thought of as African and any other combination, but it was deleted in the 1930 census, which was way before the civil rights movement Paul.

Your Australian statement is very disturbing. Your support for “white” Europeans to steal Aboriginal children from their natural parents, and their distorted belief that the native ("Aboriginal") peoples should be absorbed by the white settlers by interbreeding, so that they ceased to exist as a visible separate race, supports my statement that European’s categorized superiority color concept and distorted definition of being “civilized” and “white” destroyed lives, cultures, and nations.

Go back and read what I said Paul, I did not extrapolate generalizations about "white people" from a brief bit of the history of the USA, but gave examples of “white” European atrocities that span the globe.

As for as my views on how Christianity was modeled to suit the Greeks who originally rewrote it the Tanakh ( Hebrew Bible, Jewish Bible, Old Testament, First Testament, and so on), or the Romans who slaughtered those that did not believe in their Christian belief, or the Caucasian looking Jesus, Mary etc. I will pass explaining my views. We will debate for a long, long time and I prefer not to do so.

Laura, Detroit 26 February 2006

I just noticed (after I posted my following comments) that Misza13 deleted Laura's above comments before I returned to respond here. Therefore, my following post was made in response to the most recent post made by the anonymous person who started this section, rather than to Laura's posts which succeed those and precede mine that follow here. --Jugbo 18:37, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

You are presenting personal opinion and perceptions. That the one-drop rule is prominent in American society (i.e. not just in the white American sphere) was not your only argument. I'll quote you:

"Americans are not White!!!" (opinion and personal perception)

"So-called "white" Americans...are not White and have never been White." (opinion and personal perception)

"As to their European blood, many Europeans are not White either." (taking the one-drop rule out of context, injecting your opinion into the matter and coloring it with your personal perception)

"So, stop pasing off as White and face up to the facts." (anger, and, perhaps, political agenda? - see below)

"Race should be dealt with on a scientific basis, not based on political agendas, myths and superstition." (opinion and personal perception)

"Well, it happens that their ¨whiteness¨is being challenged by scientific evidence. That's all." (opinion)

"So, the conclusion is irrefutable, unless Americans or others want to change the rules in the middle of the game, now that they do not suit them." (personal perception)

"But you cannot use a double standard: one for saying when other people are white or mixed, and another for saying when you are white or mixed." (personal perception)

"They should be called African-European-Americans, if you are so interested in point out the racial identity of people." (opinion and hypocrisy)

"You use racial classification as a caste system." (hugely affected personal perception)

"Because you are as White as your fellow-Americans that you call Black and as white as many of those fellow-Americans that you call Native." (opinion and personal perception - and lie)

"I am European, of full white ancestry, from a place that is thousands of years old and where my people have lived since the dawn of history." (lie)

"It is precisely those who think themselves as the sole descendents of Europeans, who think that they are better because of that, and are so racist, that as you point out, would deny that they also have African or Native American origins." (personal perception)

"That does not make them any better: it is just a fact." (interesting that you should feel the need to emphasize this)

"In fact they are so racist that they have managed, by social pressure, that African Americans deny or ignore that they are also 20 per cent of European origin." (personal perception)

"They do not need to try and identify in the way they are doing." (opinion)

"That is the sick part of American society." (opinion and personal perception)

"I am just giving self-called White Americans a taste of their own medicin ." (that's just what you think, therefore, it's an opinion based on personal perception)

"Because they are so stupid that they think that they are better because they are "White"." (also interesting - and telltale, it's opinionated and a personal perception)

"And, come on, everyone knows that." (personal perception)

"I am not saying that all Americans believe in it, but as I have quoted above, it still has a significant holding in US society. That is not a personal opinion." (now who's changing the "rules" in the middle of the "game"?)

"So, this US "White" society should begin to apply their own rule to themselves since they are applying it to others." (who are these 'others' that you keep referring to?)

"I think I have done it correctly: that is, quoting and presenting evidence, not personal opinions." (another lie)

"If you are an American you will understand how sensitive an article dealing with the white race can be." (dealing with any race - more telltale statements)

"I am also sorry if sometimes I was carried a little away." (I don't believe you)

"it can be argued that the one drop rule continues to be dominant in US White society. It is not a personal perception." (of course it is - you don't know everyone's thoughts. Maybe it's just outstanding to you because you're the one with this racial preoccupation)

"I have seen that among a lot of White American friends myself. A lot of friends that were good people and who did not consider themselves racists or at least that is what they said. It is just a mindset that has been implanted in them in such a way that it is just part of the way the see the world. So powerfull continues to be the influence of that theory. But, again, obviously anyone could argue that that is only a personal perception." (no personal perceptions, anonymous? - it most certainly is)

"I do not present my personal opinion." (lie)

"Just look at the article about the one drop rule in this encyclopeadia and its influence today in US society. It is supported by serious scholars." (It is not. Apparently, you still think you've got scientific backing, here)

"So, if they apply it to other people, why not to themselves." (more personal perception)

Whew! Well, Mr. Anonymous, I think it's apparent that you've lied throughout this discussion, and that you're the one who isn't white, here. You're probably just an angry brown Cuban who paddled over to Miami to hate whitey at a closer proximity. I think you have an inferiority complex. You obviously think that white people are above you, and that if you can't be white, then no one should be able to be white. You're the one who thinks that being white is so damn special, and that's why you have this racial insecurity that white people think that they're better than everyone else. Yes, your problem is obvious, and you should keep it to yourself. --Jugbo

18:11, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Well Jugbo, I think that your comments like: you are a brown Cuban, or you are not White, and some others, are enough to know who you are and what you stand for: you are the best proof of what I am saying: as if Cuban was a race, or as if brown was I race. You are a perfectly American "White" wannabe. If you want to call me brown or whatever is supposed to be a race for you is of no concern here. I would rather call myself by any name than call myself white, if that means that I am supposed to be classified in the same group as you. I grew up in a country with a fascist dictatorship. For long, when I was a kid, I thought that Jews where the guys with a trident whose job was to help Satan in Hell. I used to say then, do not spit like a Jew, and things like that, and I am 40 years old. Many racist mindsets have been spread in many countries for years. The US is a good example. The way the term white continues to be used reflects racists like you. Racists who decide who is white or not, brown, or whatever, to classify them and perpetuate a caste system. I have made conclusions based on citations. You have only shown what you are. And I admit that I have made a clear statement: White Americans are not white. And I stick to that presenting evidence, read it well. Americans are a mixed people of European, African, Native American and Asian ancestry. The result of this melting together shows itself in different combinations in the American man and woman. In some of them one element is much more present than another. But they all share basically the same ancestors. By the way, you can read the Autobiography of Walter White: A man called white. I quote: "I am a Negro. My skin is white, my eyes are blue, my hair is blond. The traits of my race are nowhere visible upon me.". You can find it in the African American article of this great Encyclopeadia.

As to the comments of Laura. The behaviour of Europeans in history have been certainly positive and not so positive, like any other people. The problem is not so much how Europeans have behaved in the past. Civilization is developing and the values that a growing number of us share nowadays did not come into being in a few days. The problem is that a lot of people in some societies continue to stick to some of those values, just sometimes hidden in a veil of political correctness.

Well said and duly noted Anonymous.

Laura, Detroit 27 February 2006

By the way you can call me Felix, from Latin Felix, Felicis, "the one who has the protection of the gods", and related to Spanish feliz, or Italian felice, just meaning "happy". With a name like that you will understand that I give a damn how you call me: white, brown, black, blue or dull. But this is not a chat. We are here to propose changes to the article and to support it with evidence. Not to present opinions without a single citation. So, I propose working in the part of the article called Criticism of the Term. As you can see I do not want to impose any changes. I am raising the issue for discussion with a goal. And if you do not like my expression in English you can choose between French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese or German. But I guess you will stick to English, because it is the only languge in which you can write. So, let's stop making this personal and stick to the point.

Okay, Anonymous (when are you gonna get a name?), let me make myself clear: "White", in the U.S., refers to a group of people. This group of people is of European extraction (by the most conservative definition, and the plasticity of the term demonstrates that you can't provide a definite re-delineation of the term or group). Your argument goes thus: there is non-white admixture in some white Americans, therefore no American is white. There is some admixture in some white Americans, but this fact hardly supports your argument that "AMERICANS ARE NOT WHITE!!!" You're simply wrong. It shows us only that interracial miscegenation has occurred in the U.S. It doesn't tell us who is white or not as a result of this phenomenon, or how to use the term, as that's up to this American society (of which you aren't a part). The term will change as it pleases, not according to some white-wannabe (and that is what you are) who's angry at white people for calling themselves "white". Don't you think that that's silly? The only caste system is the one in your head that you impose on yourself with your inferiority complex. I see individuals like you all the time, and they feel that they're justified in attacking white people for being who they are because they think that it's a status symbol, when really all it is, is skin tone. Your motivation is clear, and you can't hide it from anyone reading this page, and you can't deny it to yourself. --Jugbo 03:45, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

P.S. you should use the "show preview" feature in the editing window before saving your post to the page, as you have a habit of going back to your posts and making many minor edits that could all be taken care of at once before saving. Otherwise, your changes take up space on the history page that could be used to show us significant additions. --Jugbo 03:54, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

OK Jugbo, whatever. This is not a discussion about how white I am. The fact that you think that a real white cannot question the whiteness of Americans is interesting in itself. But if you feel very ¨white¨ that is always good if that makes you happy. I even admit that I could agree to call these Americans "strange white Americans".

I didn't mean that you can't "question the whiteness" of Americans, but rather that your claim is illogical, and that it sounds personally motivated. I want you (and Laura, et al) to know that I honestly don't have anything against non-white people. You may find that difficult to believe, and I can clearly see why as I've said some abrasive and inflammatory things here, but it's true. My two best friends are Paraguayan (mestizo) and Dravidian, and I'm very close to both of them (and, of course, I have nothing against either one). And you know what my favorite show is? - Oprah! (don't laugh), and I don't hate her for being black (or for any other reason, for that matter). I'm happy with myself and my image, and I'm proud of my European (and, possibly, Native American) ancestry, because that's who I am, and there's never any justification for hating oneself. But even though I may have some Native American ancestry (or anything else - I'm really not sure), I still consider myself "white", and others do, too, and that won't change because nothing in me will have changed (and I don't have to deny that Native American ancestry to identify as "white"). "White" is just a word, like "brown" or "black" (or whatever else), and I, personally, have never considered them to be anything more than just colloquial, superficial terms; so your comments here not only offended me (because I felt attacked for identifying as "white"), but confused me. I want to apologize for offending you, as I'm sure I have, and for denying the sincerity of your apology that you expressed earlier. And I need to clarify that when I called you "brown" that I didn't mean it as an epithet, but just as an emphasis in my argument as I speculated on your point-of-view. I also want to express agreement and commendation for your insight in your address of Laura's comments in the last paragraph of your previous post. Now, to those of you reading this who don’t really care because you weren't involved here, let me point out that even though this discussion hasn't been entirely pertinent to the article that exchanges like this are still important for understanding the subject at hand. --Jugbo 00:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)--Jugbo 00:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

OK then. I am not offended. I do not have anything against Americans, if someone may infer that.I think they are a great nation, and thanks to god that they are the dominant power at the moment, and not countries like Nazi Germany, Communist Sovient Union or Fundmentalist Iran. I just wanted to point out how the term is used in the US by popular culture, and whether its usage is soundly based. I do not like how the term is used in other places either. I am from Spain, though I am again momentarily living in Miami due to my job, and we also have in Spain a lot of people that I could criticize, who look down on Latin American immigrants because they may look different or because they may not be considered white, ignoring that they also have our own blood. But this article deals a lot with the term as used in the US, so I acted accordingly. When I refered to my American friends and their view on race I did not mean how they looked at me, but on how they looked at other people, and they were obviusly sincere with me because they considered me white as well.

You two are so mushy! I’m just curious why it was so important for Felix to reveal his identity. Why couldn’t he voice his opinion without revealing where he was from? I liked him better as Anonymous, because he added spice to this site.

Felix, I know you moved here from Spain to Miami, but you have a lot to learn about what really goes on in America, so don’t admire it too much; it’s a country filled with lies and deceit. (i.e. Weapons of Mass Destruction, Vietnam War, All men are created equal etc.). Please do more research and ask more questions from people of all walks of life, not just “white” people, and you will find the truth. Believe it or not a lot of American’s are ashamed and disgusted at what America has become.

I know how Latin Americans are looked down upon when they move to Spain. One of my best friends from Honduras recently moved to Spain and she tells me how horrible the “white” Spaniards treat her. Which goes back to my original comments that identifying humans by color (“white”, “brown”, “black”, “yellow”, “red” etc.) are ridiculous Eurocentric labels put in place to make “white” more superior. What’s so funny about Spaniards is they forget their brown skin (or as some call it “swarthy”) is due to the African Moors that controlled the region for 400 – 800 years. Did you forget about that Felix?

Jugbo, don’t get so happy. The reason I agreed with Felix’s last statement from his previous post is because his last sentence, “The problem is that a lot of people in some societies continue to stick to some of those values, just sometimes hidden in a veil of political correctness,” applies to you.

Your brown Cuban, egocentric “black” American statements showed just how quickly you ripped off your political correctness veil to show your true stripes. Now, you state that you do not have anything against non-white people, because you have friends that are colored that aren’t even true "non white" Americans, and that you like Oprah – someone that’s a TV personality. To me you are the typical “white” person who thinks that because they have “non-white” friends that they understand their non-white world. You sound like Sally and Johnny on the attached sarcastic web site - take a look.

Laura, Detroit -11 March 2006

Actually, Laura, Spaniards are Southern Europeans. We belong to the Mediterranean race, a subgroup of the Caucasian race, a race that spreads around the Mediterranean and the Middle East, including peoples like Spaniards, the Portuguese, Italians, Greeks, Libanese, Iranians, Berbers, Jews, Arabs, Etc. (Yes Jews and Arabs are basically of the same race, the same as mine, even though they hate each other so much, or even though some ignorant "white" Europeans like to think that Arabs, Berbers or Jews are really other races. This is just an example of how the term race is contaminated with social, political and cultural prejudice. On the other hand, the views that you mention are the result of Nordicist and Afrocentrist pseudo-scientific theories. But still, who cares. All races come from Africa. The Sub-Saharan African Nubians played a major role in the finest of Ancient civilizations, Egypt. Sub-saharan Africans are among the best sportsmen in Europe and America. Their contribution to modern music is astonishing, and in spite of the fact that I have met people who have been raised in segregated schools (yeah, that recent is all that)they are struggling to go ahead. I do not know if I have recent African ancestry, but I do know that I have ancient African ancestry, we all have. In my opinion we all should begin to reject principles and worldviews based on the classification of people by races. That is racist and immoral in itself. The interesting thing is that some people have been used to that so much, being raised seen questions like "are you white or black or whatever" since they went to school, that they think it is something absolutely normal. We, and by we I mean all, regardless of our countries of origin, should begin to attack headfront this remnant of racist American or European societies. We could learn from other civilizations. The Arabs, who are basically Caucasian, in spite of the belief of some ignorant Americans and Europeans, have had a lot of contact with Sub-Saharan Africans for centuries,the same as in the US, and many of them can look quite Sub-Saharan African, others mixed, and others White. Yet, they do not see themselves as such, they see themselves basically as Arabs. It is an aspect of Civilization in which they are much more advanced than we, Westerners, are. And in relation to the United States, which is your country, nor mine, I also have to criticize some sort of cheap anti-Americanism that one sees around the world. And believe me, I travel a lot. The US has bright and dark sides. It has been a inspiration for other countries as a democracy and it has defended its democratic principles with a lot of American blood. It has also made used of its power with not so good intentions as well, but no one is perfect. Yet, the darkest side as I see it, continues to be the way it handles its view on people and race.

Your response was a confusing one for me to respond to. For the first time on this talk page someone of the Caucasian race admitted their African ancestry. I was shocked. Normally I get clobbered with insults or I get ignored when I mention that all races, even Caucasian, really derived from the “black” African, which has been reported by scientist for many years and is plastered on the front cover of this month’s National Geographic.

My statement about the Moors was not based on an Afrocentric pseudo-scientific theory; it was based on the documented history of Spain. The Moors contributed tremendously to Spain and other European regions through the knowledge they spread between the early 700s and the late 1400s. They had brought along with them knowledge of science, medicine and mathematics, and also constructed important centers for the people such as mosques, hospitals and libraries that transformed Spain from what it was. It seems to me if there was an African/Arabic presence in Spain for such a long duration, then a blending of races is bound to happen.

I’ve researched many antiquity historians/writers and scientist that referred Mediterranean race as the “Negroid race”, since its characteristics are precisely those of the “blacks” in general: an elongated skull, dark or brown skin, these two adjectives being quite often euphemisms for ‘black’. Alexander Moret’s description of the ancient Mediterraneans and the fact that the ancient Greeks did not label the original inhabitants of North-West Africa as white that is to say, of the present Magreb_Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia -- they called the inhabitants Mauroi or ‘moors’, meaning men with ‘ a dark skin’. And Herodotus tells us that the Colchidians, a Middle East people, were as ‘Black as Egyptians.” Have I been reading the wrong information?

Here we must of course bear in mind that the inhabitants of North Africa at this period in history were not the same people who inhabit that region now! Prior to the Islamic conquests by Arabs, many regions of North Africa were inhabited by the Berber, an indigenous African people. Today, Western scholars regard the Berber as "white Caucasian", but it should be noted that the Berber language belongs to the Afroasiatic family, and the Berber's recorded presence in Africa is as old as the presence of the Bantu and other black African tribes.

I disagree with your statement that Jews and Arabs are basically of the same race. Being Jewish doesn’t (and shouldn’t) classify a person’s race, because it is a religion that many people of various nationalities follow including Ethiopians, the Judeo-Berber tribe of Jarawa, East Indians, and other tribes in Africa. The majority of Jews living in Europe, Russia, Israel and the United States practice what they call JUDAISM. Judaism is the religion of the Jews; it is also a nickname for Jewish culture.

To be honest, all I know is this “Jew” thing is very confusing, we started with the Israelites, they transformed into the Hebrews and then we got Judean descendents who became Jews and now call themselves the chosen people, how confusing.

However, I do know that not all people that claim they are “Jews” or follow the Jewish religion are Caucasian. Since you are a proponent of DNA, please review the following articles. .It talks about how researchers found that Lemba men of South Africa carried a DNA signature on their Y chromosome that is believed unique to the relatively small number of Jews known as the Cohanim, who trace their ancestry to the priests of the ancient Jewish Temple and, ultimately, to Aaron, brother of Moses. What’s so unfortunate is that Lemba, Tutsi, Ethiopians, East Indians who follow the Jewish religion are not recognized as being Jewish by the “white” European Jews, because of the color of their skin.

As far as Arabs, I am baffled at how they are Caucasian, but maybe they are since they have the same Caucasian characteristics. One of them is using a religion (Islam) just like “white” Europeans used Christianity to force people to conform to their beliefs. The only difference is Arabs used Jihad to force people, from the ancient Berbers to the modern Sudanese, to surrender not just their sovereignty, but also their religion, language and identity.

While both worked hand in hand to enslave “black” Africans, the Caucasian’s stopped slavery decades ago, but they enforced a caste system to ensure that “white” people remained superior. Unfortunately descendents of Arabs still exploit “black” Africans in the form of “black” slavery in Sudan (Northeast Africa) and Mauritania (Northwest Africa). Over 2 million people have been killed in Darfur through Arab genocide. It is also documented that the “white” Arabs treat dark-skinned Arabs visiting Mecca very poorly. Although Arabs have worked and traded with Sub-Saharan Africans for centuries there are serious racist issues that prevail.

Laura, Detroit 19 March 2006

Laura, for the sake of closure (on my part, anyway), I should clarify my statement "egocentric black American perspective", to discourage any grudge you may retain, because you've complained about it twice, now (and not unjustly, either). Firstly, the adjective was used to describe perspective. I wasn't calling black Americans "egocentric", but a perspective of history and society from any exclusive point-of-view, such as a black American one as yours seemed to be to me, "egocentric" (if it's that of a group to which the individual belongs, otherwise it's just biased), because it's neither holistic nor proportionate, and thus doesn't provide us with a realistic view of the world. I should have been more careful and clear with my wording. Also, I've never claimed to "understand" anyone else's personal "world", white or non-white. I mentioned my "colored" friends (for whom American society has been home since infancy) and Oprah to support my claim that I don't hate "colored" people (because this logic does make sense). If you break down or prevent xenophobic barriers by spending time or growing up with others whom you may otherwise perceive to be fundamentally different from you because of appearance or stereotypes, then you wouldn't hate those people for racial reasons, now would you? I understand that other people are people, not primarily white people or black people or brown people or whatever. Therefore, I'm gonna have to deny your contention that I'm like "Sally and Johnny". You don't know me, my life or my world, Laura, so you can't speculate or draw accurate conclusions about my person on your own. We can reveal only partial views of ourselves in forums like this one (or ever), and I guarantee you that you can't see all of me here (and vice-versa, so I'll admit that my assumption about your POV was unfair). I don't give "colored" people special or different treatment. I don't affect my behavior to try to accommodate them in some way, nor patronize or tip-toe around eggshells for them, nor make generalized assumptions about them as if they were a different species about which I know nothing; because I, unlike "Sally and Johnny", don't see the world solely through a racial looking-glass. That's not to say that I'm color-blind (as I don't believe anyone is), but that these things don't omnipotently govern my thoughts and actions, and that I occupy my mind with racial matters whenever it's appropriate, as it is when contributing to this page. As for my "brown Cuban" remark, I'll quote myself:

"'White' is just a word, like 'brown' or 'black' (or whatever else), and I, personally, have never considered them to be anything more than just colloquial, superficial terms."

Therefore, there was no malice in the term, which was worthy of usage for my particular emphasis and for this discussion of race. I hope that this wasn't too "mushy" for you, because it's willingness to communicate by standards of civility and decency like these that's necessary for fruitful discussion (and I know that I haven't followed my own advice very well). --Jugbo 08:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Felix

By the way you can call me Felix, from Latin Felix, Felicis, "the one who has the protection of the gods", and related to Spanish feliz, or Italian felice, just meaning "happy". With a name like that you will understand that I give a damn how you call me: white, brown, black, blue or dull. But this is not a chat. We are here to propose changes to the article and to support it with evidence. Not to present opinions without a single citation. So, I propose working in the part of the article called Criticism of the Term. As you can see I do not want to impose any changes. I am raising the issue for discussion with a goal. And if you do not like my expression in English you can choose between French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese or German. But I guess you will stick to English, because it is the only languge in which you can write. So, let's stop making this personal and stick to the point.

I created a new subsection because this one is getting unwieldy. Edit away, but remember WP policy, especially WP:NPOV. It would make discussion a lot easier if you would sign your posts, preferebly by creating a user account, which is very easy to do. That way, no-one can confuse your statements with other anonymous contributions. Paul B 14:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see if you also remind other people of the NPOV, because I have the impression that you have a certain leaning. So, if you have contributions to make , make them.

As I said, do not manipulate what other people say and leave it in its place. Will you erase this again?

Who is this "you" and what has been "erased" or "manipulated"? As far as I am aware nothing has been deliberately erased or manipulated on this talk page apart from a passage that was deleted by Misdra13 and immediately added back by Jugbo. Please make clear who or what you are responding to and please sign posts. Paul B 16:45, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Addendum. I said I was creating a new section, because the old one was too long and unwieldy. This is common procedure. You have to make the break somewhere and I made it clear that it was me who had added it. Nothing was erased at all, but we now have your paragraph twice over. Paul B 17:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

updated information

Updated information

One researcher claimed that 30% of white Americans have on average about 2% Negroid ancestry, while the other 70% have no detectable trace of admixture (Mark Shriver in Sailer 2002). According to Shriver, for the US White population as a whole, the average sub-Saharan contribution is about .7%. UPDATE: Shriver now says "about 10 percent of have some African ancestry" (Wade 2002) -- much lower than his previous claim of 30%. Incidentally, Shriver is now attributing his own African ancestry to "a Mexican grandmother", rather than to runaway slaves as he had implied in the Steve Sailer article.

UPDATE II: As more information has come out about DNAprint's "AncestryByDNA" test (Shriver is affiliated with DNAprint, and his findings mentioned above were made using a version of the ABD test), it has become clear that the ABD test absolutely DOES NOT accurately determine low level admixture in individuals. Thus, any statement from Shriver concerning "admixture" in American whites is meaningless. Recent research on Y-chromosomes and mtDNA detected NO black admixture in American whites (Kayser et al. 2003).

UPDATE III: A DNAprint executive now claims "Five percent of European Americans exhibit some detectable level of African ancestry" (ABCNEWS.com, Dec. 28 2003). This represents a third downard revision of the proportion of white Americans claimed by DNAprint to have black ancestry. An amazing lack of consistency (30% -> 10% -> 5%) proves the pronouncements of DNAprint employees on the racial ancestry of Americans are unreliable.

Do you also have information about admixture of other races? Or you think that the only non-white admixture is African American? Do you also have information about the level of white and non/white admixture in African Americans? Do you have information about levels of non-white and white admixture in Native-Americans? The issue is much more complicated than black and white. But sure. White Americans have lived together with other races for hundreds of years, but they have not mixed. And sure enough, Fidel Castro is a brown Cuban and Mr. Bush a "white" American, in spite of the Asian features in his eyes: link

"White Americans have lived together with other races for hundreds of years, but they have not mixed." Are you serious? I'm not quite sure in this narrative where you are being sarcastic. It would nice if discussions were clear, so many agendas contradict one another. It's true that they - along with other US ethnic groups - have mixed less than elsewhere in the world, but since most "black" Americans are actually of mixed European and African ancestry, it's pretty obvious that they have mixed in fact. Paul B 07:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

That's a funny joke. What you meant to say is that "White Americans have lived together with other races for hundreds of years, but white people of this century fail to acknowledge the fact that they have mixed, and opt instead to just ignore the mixtures, or categorize them as "non mixed variations of Caucasoids" or "caucasoids with admixture" when it suits their quest for cultural appropriation. --Zaphnathpaaneah 12:01, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I think that a bit of humour is always refreshing. Anyway, I have brought up the issue. Now if more people want to participate adding arguments in favour or against it is up to them. I have no more to say. But I think it is a matter worth looking into. See you maybe in other article.

Felix-Felicis.

synonyms

"Various synonyms or near synonyms for white people or white race occur: Caucasian, European, Aryan, Indo-European, Westerner, Occidental, etc. However each of these terms have significantly different meanings and so cannot be made identical with eachother or, therefore, with the indeterminate concept of "Whiteness"

should be compared to:

"Various synonyms or near synonyms for retarded people occur: idiot, retard, developmentally challenged, imbecile, mentally retarded, etc. However each of these terms have significantly different meanings and so cannot be made identical with eachother or, therefore, with the indeterminate concept of "retardness."

I think shows that the last sentence in each case is a not very useful. Synonyms are not generally "made identical with each other"; each of them have a slight nuance, and which one is used depends upon context, intent, etc. But each of those listed are given as synonyms in dictionaries, and even in wikipedia itself. The sentence in question is therefore superflous and is covered in the use of the word "synonym" list. I am therefore removing it.DonSiano 16:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

A pretty meaningless analogy, there, I think. The terms you are using in your second example are largely slang, though some of them once had more technical meanings; others are forms of vague institutional euphemism. In each case they are not intelligably distinct from one another, and are genuine synonyms. The other terms are not. Aryan and Indo-European are genuinely synonyms, but they are specifically different from "Caucasian", which is a category from physical anthropology. "European" refers to a land-mass. Westerner and Occidental are genuinly synonyms for eachother, but are not clearly identifiable with "European" or the other terms (and of course "non Western" countries, e.g. in North Africa, are sometimes to the West of "Western" countries). Of course it is difficult to be precise about how far we can stretch the tern "synonym", since there will always be some differences of connotation even with words with identical referants, but in these cases the concepts attached to the words are irreconcilable with eachother in many cases. It is an important aspect of this article that it explores the multiple and sometimes inconsistent use of a term such as "white". Almost every attempt to clearly delimit it has proven problematic. The sentence draws attention to that fact. The inadequacy of your analogy with vague slang terms points up the necessity for the sentence you deleted. Paul B 17:37, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is really beating a dead horse. The whole gist of the article is how the term "white" and "white race" is a fuzzy term, whose meaning differs from place to place and time to time and from one individual to another. The synonyms listed (I'll accept the list you suggest) can be found in dictionaries as synonyms. I just looked through some and can give a citation for each of them, but I think it would interfere with the flow and is a little over the top. Generally, fuzzy terms are somewhat fuzzy, and I have no quarrel with that. The synonyms are fuzzy too. What is there now is clear, and requires no extended explanation of what is meant by "synonym." The very first sentence of the article points out the fuzzyness, and so does the rest of the article, in rather exhausting detail, I might add. The sentence in question is jargony, academic, un-neccessary, and borderline ungrammatical to boot. Leave it out.

The Need for Operational Definitions

I removed the following paragraph:

In addition, Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, one of the most important geneticists of the 20th century, has identified ten genetic clusters in the global population: East Asians, Europeans, Inuit or Eskimos, Southeast Asians, Native Americans, Pacific Islanders, South Asians and North Africans, sub-Saharan Africans, southern-African Khoisan and central-African Pygmies, and Australian Aborigines. It should be noted that the European genetic cluster occurs mainly in Europe but also in some areas of the Middle East. http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Cavalli-SforzaMap.jpg

If anyone can come up with a page number reference to where Cavalli-Sforza claimed to have found ten such specific "clusters," I would agree with restoring the statement. The map has a valid source reference, but it simply shows that people vary geographicaly and depicts no clusters at all. Indeed, it graphically and clearly depicts the absence of any clustering in human geographic variation. -- Frank W Sweet 13:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, in that case you should erase the entire article about Cavalli-Sforza, which is one in this encyclopeadia too. I think it is a relevant contribution and I am putting it back.

You utterly miss the point. Cavalli-Sforza's work is very important, and the book cited is a standard reference. I demanded a page number and removed the paragraph because the paragraph was a grotesque fabrication that reversed what the book actually says on page 19. The fact that I removed someone's lies about an important and valuable book does not mean that I disapprove of the book. Surely, this should not be too hard for you to grasp. Put the paragraph back, if you wish, but I shall remove it again. Just how long do you think you can get away with falsifying such an important book before two or three other molecular anthropologists show up here, who also keep copies on their desk as I do, and join me in stopping such a gross and apparently ideologically motivated fabrication? -- Frank W Sweet 05:17, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I removed it again while trying to improve the whole section. The intention is not to solve the problem of definition by providing one, but to talk about the difficulties and pitfalls and the need for definitions. Jer ome 00:20, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I have no ideological motivations. Maybe you see something in the map and I see something else. Some people might think that other people have theirs because it points out clear genetic links between the Middle East and Europe. Maybe some people do not like the idea that many Arabs belong to the same genetic cluster as the Europeans. Everyone knows how often Arabs are not included in the term White, as it is used in the US, for example, so I think that the contribution can be interesting to point out how the term is so subjective and often ill-founded. Do you think that the article about Cavalli is wrong, or that the map is wrong? maybe then it should be changed too. By the way, you think that the genetic links shown in the map between the Middle East and Europe are wrong?

As to Jer ome. The section is speaking about solving the definition, with the stupidest things I have ever heard in my life, like a light meter, etc. So, you are not being coherent.

Move to white people?

Would it be controversial to move this page from white (people) to white people? I don't know what is being accomplished by having the parentheses around (people), other than to make it harder to type. - Nat Krause 01:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

It's now White (people), so it should be moved to White people? And no, the currect title is more encyclopedic, so there's no reason to move it. white people is a redirect to this page, so you can actually use that when writing other articles. Aucaman 02:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

We should try to avoid redirects if there's a convenient way to do it. And I don't know what makes "white (people)" more encyclopedic. "White" as a noun seems to be less and less common, and Misplaced Pages generally favours "... people" without parentheses, e.g. Korean people, French people, Turkish people. - Nat Krause 02:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

North Africa, Southwest Asia and South Asia

Removed the following:

Furthermore, while many South Asians are also anthropologically caucasoid, with varying complexions —and recognized as such by the United States Supreme Court—not only are they also excluded from the popular definition of "White", but US government agencies further categorise them as "Asians", be they Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, Christians or Indian Jews. (See also: Race in the US Census). Even outside the American context, this trend of excluding caucasoid South Asians is almost universal, as is the disregarding of a comparable lighter-complexioned phenotypical presence as discussed for North Africa and Southwest Asia.

The term "anthropologically caucasoid" has not been used in science for nearly half a century. The very notion of "caucasoid" as something apart from the odd U.S. caste system is not replicable or even defineable.

Nonsense. The notion of 'caucasoid' is not something peculiar to "the odd US caste system"; rather, the bizarre notion that race is a 'social construct' is something peculiar to the US. In fact, the further one gets from the US, the less controversial such classifications as 'caucasian'.

If the point was to highlight the inconsistencies of U.S. Supreme Court rulings, which waffled back and forth over and over many times, as to whether Arabs, Pakistanis, or East Indians are "White," then I suggest it be reworded thus.

Perhaps the author could use or or even quote from Matthew Frye Jacobson, Whiteness of a Different Color: European Immigrants and the Alchemy of Race (Cambridge: Harvard University, 1998) or from Ian F. Haney-Lopez, White by Law: The Legal Construction of Race (New York: New York University, 1996). -- Frank W Sweet 15:11, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Arabs have always been classifed as white in the US, so you are either ignorant or dishonest (probably both). I challenge you to provide ONE documented, independently verifable example of a Supreme Court ruling that declared Arabs 'non-white' - or even investigated the question of Arab whiteness. The whiteness or lack thereof of Arabs has in fact NEVER been an issue presented to the supreme court. You are a rather shameless liar.

This is in response to the above unsigned rant. Among the important cases (among the many) where the U.S. Supreme Court ruled on the "Whiteness" of Arabs are the following eleven cases:

• In re Najour. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 174 F. 735. Ruled in 1909 that Syrians are White. Decision based on scientific evidence.

• In re Mudarri. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 176 F. 465. Ruled in 1910 that Syrians are White. Decision based on legal precedent (Najour).

• In re Ellis. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 179 F. 1002. Ruled in 1910 that Syrians are white, despite scientific evidence that they not White. Decision based on "common knowledge."

• Ex parte Sahid. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 205 F. 812. Ruled in 1913 that Syrians are not White, and never have been. Decision based on "common knowledge."

• Ex parte Dow. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 211 F. 486. Ruled in 1914 that Syrians are not White, and cannot become White by assimilation. Decision based on "common knowledge."

• In re Dow. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 213 F. 355. Ruled in 1914 that Syrians are not White. Decision based on Congressional intent as to definition of Whiteness.

• Dow v. United States. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 226 F. 145. Ruled in 1915 that Syrians have always been White. Decision based on scientific evidence.

• United States v. Ali. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 7 F.2d 728. Ruled in 1915 that Punjabis are not White, even the Punjabi in question who was born an Arab in Arabia and simply moved to Punjab. Decision based on "common knowledge."

• In re Feroz Din. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 27 F.2d 568. Ruled in 1928 that Afghanis are not White, even the Afghani in question whose family moved to Afghanistan from Arabia. Decision based on "common knowledge."

• In re Ahmed Hassan. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 48 F.Supp. 843. Ruled in 1942 that Arabians are not White, have never been White, and can never become White. Decision based on legal precedent. (Apparently an attempt to end the debate.)

• Ex parte Mohriez. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 54 F.Supp. 941. Ruled in 1944 that Arabians are White, have always been White, and cannot legally be considered non-White. Decision based on legal precedent. (Another apparent attempt to end the debate.)

The last two rulings are particularly humorous. Please let me know the address to which I can send my invoice for 10 minutes of elementary paralegal research. For a modest additional fee, I shall be happy to email you PDF files of the entire transcripts of these cases. Please have your credit card handy. -- Frank W Sweet 13:35, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

• Yes - I most certainly should pay you a fee for providing this evidence that Arabs have always/ultimately been considered white in America. Thanks! The citations you provided will come in very useful in future debates. How many $ do you want? Thanks so much!

As you noticed, that last ruling seems to have endured to this day. In fact, it has been applied even when a Arab person did not want to be White. For a strange story, see the case of Mostafa Hefny, a "black" African-looking immigrant, actually from Africa, who applied for affirmative action but was rejected. Alhough he is physically "black," the court ruled that since he was from Egypt, this made him an Arab, and so he was legally White whether he liked it or not. -- Frank W Sweet 03:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Legal Cases Ruling That Arabs Are White

• In re Najour. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 174 F. 735. Ruled in 1909 that Syrians are White. Decision based on scientific evidence.

• In re Mudarri. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 176 F. 465. Ruled in 1910 that Syrians are White. Decision based on legal precedent (Najour).

• In re Ellis. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 179 F. 1002. Ruled in 1910 that Syrians are white, despite scientific evidence that they not White. Decision based on "common knowledge."

• Dow v. United States. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 226 F. 145. Ruled in 1915 that Syrians have always been White. Decision based on scientific evidence.

• Ex parte Mohriez. This case is reported in its entirety in every U.S. law library under the index 54 F.Supp. 941. Ruled in 1944 that Arabians are White, have always been White, and cannot legally be considered non-White. Decision based on legal precedent.

Second Paragraph

I have removed the reference to Brazil in the article's second paragraph and I have restored the reference to Chile. I removed the reference to Brazil because its source is flawed. The publishers of the CIA factbook cited have never provided sources for its so-called "ethnic" breakdowns and they have never clarified whether its numbers pertain to genetic admixture or voluntary self-identity (the two differ dramatically throughout the entire hemisphere). Unless we want to turn this article into an outline on how European genetic admixture percentages vary around the world due to colonization, it seems best to stick to socio-political perception (and self-perception) and avoid DNA. In this light, I removed the Brazilian reference because Brazilian literature overwhelmingly employs a rhetoric embracing mixed self-identity and opposes the U.S. White/Black/Indian trichotomy. In the same light, I restored Chile because, again, Chilean literature overwhelmingly claims "Whiteness." Not that Chileans deny Native American admixture--most also claim Amerindian blood as well. But the Chilean attitude resembles the mainstream U.S. attitude, that having some Amerind blood does not stop you from being "White." For anyone interested in the real DNA admixture percentages in Latin America (which, again, are not the same thing as the rhetoric of socio-political self-identity), I recommend the overall survey: Monica Sans and others, "Admixture Studies in Latin America: From the 20th to the 21st Century," Human Biology, February 2000, v. 72. no. 1, pp. 155-157. See http://backintyme.com/admixture/sans02.pdf for a copy in Spanish or http://backintyme.com/admixture/sans03.pdf for the English version. -- Frank W Sweet 14:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to object to the very premise that you want to use to speak about white populations. You want to use what is known as the social argument, that is, to speak of something according to what people in a society thinks. It is no surprise. I have already seen it in other articles in this encyclopeadia. Is the social argument really taken seriously in the US to define topics? Following that principle we could end up with crazy conclusions that are not worthy of any encyclopeadia. Shall we write about the concept American, using what most people in Afganistan or Iran think that concept stands for, or what society do we want to use to speak of a concept?. Or shall we write about race using what white South-African society believes in. The aim of the Encyclopedia, since it was first conceived in 18th century France was to fight superstition and wrong social beliefs, just the opposite of perpetuating them using what these societies here or there believe a concept is.

Social arguments to write in an encyclopeadia?

I have to object to the very premise of using social arguments.

Do we want to use what is known as the social argument, that is, to speak of something according to what people in a society think?

It is no surprise to see this here. I have already seen it in other articles in the English version of this encyclopeadia.

Is the social argument really taken seriously in the US to define topics?

Following that principle we could end up with crazy conclusions that are not worthy of a encyclopeadia.

Shall we write about the concept American, using what most people in Afganistan or Iran think that concept stands for? or what society do we want to use to speak of a concept?.

Shall we write about race using what white South-African society believes in.

The aim of the Encyclopedia, since it was first conceived in 18th century France, is to fight superstition and wrong social beliefs, just the opposite of perpetuating them using what these societies here or there believe a concept is.

"White" as opposed to "Light Skinned"

For two reasons, I removed the following sentence: "Yet, this is in contradiction with genetic research, since important areas around the Baltic and Scandinavia fall outside the European genetic cluster, with a high genetic flow stemming from Asia. See Haplogroup_N_(Y-DNA) and pre-colonial areas of habitation next."

First (and less importantly), the depigmentation of the natives of the region within 300 miles of the Baltic does not conflict in any way with the early infusion of asian populations detectable via Y (or mtDNA) haplotypes. There is a vast difference in timing between the events. And there is even greater difference between autosomal adaptation and maternal or paternal lineages. Specifically, haplogroup N came into Europe from Siberia around 33kya, before the last glacial maximum. The depigmentation of northern Europeans, on the other hand, happened much, much later (just 5kya). Furthermore, this depigmentation is a superficial change in 3-5 genes. It is merely a recent autosomal adaptation to the dietary switch from meat to grains. A close analogy is the adult lactose tolerance adaptation among the same peoples. Lactose tolerance also applies to recent autosomal DNA adaptations of inhabitants of the region, whatever their pre-glacial mtDNA or Y lineages. In contrast to autosomal adaptations, matrilineal and patrilineal lineages are useful for migration tracking precisely because they are adaptively neutral and go back essentially forever.

Second (and most importantly), the place for such discussion is here on the discussion page, not in the body of the article. -- Frank W Sweet 15:47, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I do not agree. The paragraph stars: The uniquely pale complexion and melanin-deficient hair common to Nordic adults is often considered the hallmark of those seen as White.

And continues: This phenomenon's cline is densest within a few hundred miles of the Baltic Sea.

1. The Scandinavian and Baltic areas are presented like the center of Whiteness.

2. White has always been associated with being pure European, especially by those who want to concentrate on the paleness issue.

3. That region is precicely the region in Europe that is genetically less European, with an important Asian, non-caucasian genetic flow.

And precisely, the setion deals with the concept "white as opposed to light skinned".

So, I think it is important to point it out in the article. HCC.

What exactly is it that you disagree with? (1) Do you disagree that the European depigmentation is centered on the Baltic? (2) Do you disagree that Whiteness is traditionally associated with being European? (3) Do you disagree that our species colonized Europe from Asia (which was colonized from Africa)? I cannot answer you if I do not know what you are trying to say. Feel free to just give a number (1, 2, or 3), if this is easier. Please stop reverting until we can sort out just what you are trying to say. I am willing to help you add data about pre-LGM migrations if you think it useful, but I would like to know just why you think that pre-LGM (33kya) migrations have anything to do with the post-aricultural (5kya) depigmentation adaptation. (Also, to sign your remarks, type four tildes.) -- Frank W Sweet 17:58, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I have already explained my points above. It is about pointing out yet another inconsistency of how the term white is applied and viewed. I do not have to explain how it is associated with concepts of European purity. Needless to mention the peripheral nature of this region in what means to be European in terms of History and Civilization. I hope you understand now the reason for the addition. HCC.

The problem is not that you neglected to explain your points. The problem is that I cannot grasp what you are getting at. Are you saying that the notion of Europeans as the epitome of Whiteness is inconsistent because our species evolved outside of Europe? Is that what you are trying to say? Please, help me out here. (Also, to sign your remarks, type four tildes.) -- Frank W Sweet 19:25, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it is clear, anyway I will continue to try and explain. The term white, I think we all agree with this, has been used in an arbitrary way, often associating with it certain ideas. These ideas are complex (not too much I think), but one ingredient was that it was the race of Europe, and that this race was pure, different from African and Asiatic races. As I said, many people in that region are related genetically to "races", if we may continue to use that term, that are neither considered European, nor Caucaisan. Yet, some people think that they are the purest Europeans, that is, the purest whites.(I do not know what you mean by the four tildes. I think like this is right.) HCC.

So I think my point is clear. If you think it could be reworded make a suggestion. Otherwise, I will add it again. HCC.

Okay. Go for it. Now that I know what you are trying to say, I might be able to help tweak it. FYI, a tilde is this symbol ~ . Type four of them, one after the other with no spaces after your comments and it will sign and date your comments automatically. -- Frank W Sweet 22:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC).

OK.I am going to add it again. You can help with the wording if you want. For the tildes I guess I will have to register and sign in. HCC.

A Modest Proposal

I propose adding the following four paragraphs to the top of this page:

This article describes how the term "White" is applied to people. It is descriptive, not prescriptive. It is oriented towards social science, not towards genetics. It includes verified past as well as present usages. And it includes usages around the world, not just in the United States.

The article is descriptive, not prescriptive. It tells how people actually label themselves and others with the term "White." It does not prescribe how people "should" use the term nor does it address who is "really White." Edits that violate this goal and tell how people "should" use the term or claim that any given person or population is "really White" will be deleted. Arguments on this discussion page that the article should switch its goal to teaching the "correct" usage or to explaining who is "really White" will be ignored. Complaints on this discussion page that the article fails to teach the "correct" usage or that it fails to rule on who is "really White" will be ignored. The goal is to show how real people actually use the word, nothing more.

The article is oriented towards non-scientists, not towards genetics. Molecular anthropologists and phylogeographers routinely employ concepts (populations, clines, traits, polymorphisms, alleles, clusters), which the uninformed can misinterpret as "races." Some study the ebb and flow of population migrations into Europe over the past 35 millennia, which the uninformed may see as the origins of "White" people. And others study the European colonization, conquest, and exploitation of much of the globe during the three centuries after the Reformation, which the uninformed consider the spread of "White people." Nevertheless, phylogeography and the history of European colonization are not the focus of this article. Edits that address such peripheral issues should be limited to shedding light on the main topic. Excessive prose on such peripheral issues will be deleted. Arguments on this discussion page that the article should spend more time on peripheral issues will have to be very persuasive to avoid being ignored.

The article includes verified past as well as present usages. Over the past three centuries, since its coinage, Americans and others have dramatically changed how they applied the term "White." Some archaic usages are so unexpected that uninformed people today find them hard to believe. Hence, descriptions of past usages are based on peer-reviewed scholarly sources. Edits that add or remove historical scholarly peer-review-sourced material without citing a historical scholarly peer-reviewed source will be reverted. Complaints on this discussion page that historical scholarly peer-reviewed material in the article cannot possibly be true, without citing a refuting scholarly peer-reviewed source will be ignored.

The article includes usages around the world, not just in the United States. Although it focuses on the United States, because U.S. racialism is unique in many ways, it also describes how the term is used in other countries and cultures. For example: Text telling whether USAmericans consider Turks to be White belongs in the section on U.S. usage. Text telling whether New Zealanders consider USAmericans to be White belongs in the section on New Zealand usage. Misplaced edits will be moved. Edits that add or remove comparative-culture material without citing a peer-reviewed source will be reverted. Complaints on this discussion page that comparative-culture scholarly peer-reviewed material in the article cannot possibly be true, without citing a refuting scholarly peer-reviewed source will be ignored.

-- Frank W Sweet 19:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It's fine for you to add this to the bottom of the page, as you have done—that's where new comments go. We obviously can't put this at the top as if it were some kind of official proviso from Misplaced Pages, since you're using "uninformed" in such a POV way. - Nat Krause 20:10, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

First, no rule says that only an "official proviso from Misplaced Pages" can go at the top. In fact, there is already a "controversial" note at the top of this page, and it is not an "official proviso from Misplaced Pages." It is something that editors added about this specific page. Second, I suggest that you misunderstand "POV". I doubt that many would characterize insistence on scholarly peer-reviewed sources rather than unsubstantiated claims "POV." -- Frank W Sweet 22:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean by an "official proviso". No, the "controverial" tag is not some sort of official action of the Misplaced Pages administration, which, of course, would almost never do something like that. However, the "controversial" tag is a proviso that is left at the top of the talk page by general consensus of the editors of this talk page. That's feasible because the fact that the subject is controversial is not itself a controversial fact. However, your analysis of the situation most certainly is controversial.

Whether other editors agree remains to be seen. Thank you for your opinion. -- Frank W Sweet 22:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

No, the insistence upon good sources here is not unreasonable; but, yes, the conclusions that you draw from looking at those sources is your POV. - Nat Krause 22:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If you dispute any conclusion that I have ever written on this topic, and can back up your objection with scholarly, peer-reviewed sources, I urge you--no, I sincerely plead with you--to please, please, express your own conclusion (and sources) in the body of the article. If not, you are just wasting my time. -- Frank W Sweet 22:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The conclusion that I am disputing is that people who disagree with you are uninformed and should be described as such at the top of this page. Do you really require a peer-reviewed citation for that? - Nat Krause 22:29, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with Frank. He insists that this article, I do not know if others, be written following the social argument (what people think something is at a popular level). The use of the social argument to describe a topic is precisely what an encyclopeadia should not do. The use of such an argument, especially if used alone, perpetuates wrong social beliefs and superstition instead of bringing light to a topic. HCC.

I would be grateful if HCC would give just one example of a simple single statement of fact about White people that he considers "right" and not "superstition." Just one example, please. -- Frank W Sweet 02:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, Frank, your field seems to be history, but mine is linguistics. All words refer to concepts, and concepts are defined by two main building blocks: denotation and connotation. White is a term that has a denotation: the coloquial term used by people to refer to the so-called Caucasian race. On top of that, like most words and therefore concepts, it has a lot of connotations that may expand or restrict its meaning. Those vary from culture to culture and are often shaped by popular beliefs. To try to speak of a concept in an encyclocpeadia basing the information on the semantic value of a word derived only from connotation is to support the spread of superstition. HCC.

I believe Sweet's proposal that the article titled "White (people)" be restricted to how people use the term, rather than about white (people) is quite silly. Imagine going to an encyclopedia and looking up the term "physics" and only finding out how people around the world have used the word over the past centuries, how it changes with context and is a somewhat vague concept, rather than something about physics itself! What sort of encyclopedia would that be? A pretty useless one! An article about white (people) should be about their origins, history, migrations and conquests, demographics, genetics, activities and accomplishments. The article as it now stands is a piece of PC baloney, unworthy even of improvement. DonSiano 11:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Imagine going to an encyclopedia and looking up the term "Piltdown Man" and only finding out how people used the word, rather than something about the actual creature itself! The problem is that science has abandoned the concept of "White people." This article is about a term. But the term no longer has a referrent in peer-reviewed work. If you can find any recent peer-reviewed scholarly work that applies the term to something that actually exists, please, please insert it. Any scholarly source on this would be eagerly welcomed. -- Frank W Sweet 15:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually the article itself has a reference to a huge peer reviewed scientific work called the "hapmap" that refers to a sample of western and northern europeans. Maybe you should read and try to understand the section of the article on operational definitions. The scientific literature on the subject of the genetic relatedness of the different races, including the white race, as revealed by DNA sequencing has undergone something of an explosion in the last decade. My desk is piled with them. That many of these include samples of white northern europeans, who do "actually exist," goes without saying. Even the NY Times yesterday had a long article about ordinary people discovering their ancestry through DNA analysis and using the knowledge gained for various purposes. The white race doesn't exist? Ha! What you have, Mr. Sweet, is a "language disease" a la Wittgenstein. DonSiano 17:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand. Europeans and their descendants certainly exist. The many haplogroup lineages that colonized Europe 35kya still exist. And the lineages that recolonized Europe after the LGM 16kya still exist. Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, Barbadians, Trinidadians, and Brazilians who "look Black" to most Americans but are also descendants of European stock (along with African and Native American stock as well) exist. Similarly, Western culture exists and it is found around the globe although it originated in Europe. I would be happy to help write a new article on European genetic lineages, or on European (or Western) culture, or on physical traits unique to (or prepoderantly found in) natives of Europe and their descendants. Alternatively, if most editors want to switch this article to an exposition of any or all of these topics, I would be glad to re-title the article to anything along those lines. The problem is not with the existence of Europeans, their descendants, or their culture. The problem is that everyone defines "White people" differently (some, for example do not consider European Jews to be White). I understand that you sincerely believe your definition of who is White is the only "correct" one. I do not attribute either foolishness or evil motives to yourheartfelt conviction. But a Wiki article must reflect some sort of consensus beyond that of a single individual. Look at it this way: you evidently feel that "White" is synonymous with European. Okay. But here is the thing. Virtually everyone in the Western Hemisphere is a genetic mix of European, African, and Native American. (The exception being that about 2/3 of the USAmericans who self-identify as White on the census have no detectable African admixture.) Tell you what. If you can get two other editors to agree precisely what percentage of European genetic admixture someone must have to be considered "White" for purposes of this article, I will shut up and sit down. Until then, we are stuck with describing all of the mutually contradictory ways that you and a zillion other equally sincere people use the term. -- Frank W Sweet 17:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this whole section is about, but one shouldn't have to ask for permission to add 4 paragraphs. The paragraphs don't seem to be sourced, so you can't add them in lest it's a violation of WP:NOR. Aucaman 11:20, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You are mistaken. The four paragraphs are proposed for the top of this page, the "Talk" page, under the "controversial" note. Your belief that "Talk" page material must be sourced to avoid violation WP:NOR is incorrect. For one thing, a serious attempt to enforce the notion that only sourced material can go on "talk" pages would kill Misplaced Pages on the spot. Again, I appreciate your opinion of what should be allowed on talk pages, but your appeal to authorty is in error. -- Frank W Sweet 11:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

What controversial note? You can add anything you want to the talk page. You don't need permission. The "talk page" is the discussion page, the page we're using right now. If you want to add those 4 paragraphs to the article then you need to provide sources. Aucaman 11:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: What 'Controversial' note? This one: {{Controversial3}}. To see it, just scroll all the way up to the top of this discussion page . -- Frank W Sweet 12:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: You can add anything you want to the talk page. You don't need permission. I know that. And you know that. But some idiot forging your signature claimed that doing so would violate WP:NOR. Scroll up three inches to read it, if you don't believe me. -- Frank W Sweet 12:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

You wrote: If you want to add those 4 paragraphs to the article then you need to provide sources. How in hell did you ever get the idea that my proposal is about the article? Everything written above by every participant clearly states "This page" (the talk page). The above discussion even mentions the {{Controversial3}} template. The last sentence of every one of the paragraphs proposed includes the words "this discussion page." Please go have some morning coffee. -- Frank W Sweet 12:02, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There's no need to post anything under controversial note. That's just there to tell people this is a controversial article. As I said you can post anything you want in the talk page and original research doesn't apply. I thought you wanted these added to the article. Talk pages are there to discuss changes to the articles. And I don't like coffee. Good luck to you. Aucaman 12:24, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion that there is no need to post the four paragraphs where I propose. Was that all? As you can read above, I think that you are in error, that there is such a need, and furthermore I have explained why. -- Frank W Sweet 14:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Formatting

This article is getting long. It's probably a good idea to think about dividing it into sections that would later become their own articles. Any ideas? Aucaman 05:06, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The most obvious suggestion is reach consensus on the goal of the article. Is it to tell how the term "White people" is and has been used? Or is it to pean the "origins, history, migrations and conquests, demographics, genetics, activities and accomplishments" of "White people"? The article cannot begin to stabilize until this decision is made. Perhaps we could have two articles: one about the glorious history and accomplishments of White people, and another (perhaps merged with Caucasoid and Caucasian Race) on how the term is used. -- Frank W Sweet 14:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that the term "white" has acquired so many negative connotations, especially over the 19th and 20th century, and as a result of its usage within the framework of Nordicist and White Supremacy propaganda, that it is an extremely controversial article in itself. Personally I think that people should begin to question its very validity as a word to refer to people. I wonder why people take so much effort in finding substitutes for words like toilet or "shoot" (euphemisms) and they think that the term "white" to refer to people is right. I have already made my point about connotation. The uncountable parasegmental meanings that ride on top of this concept make it quite offensive to a lot of people. To try to account for all those connotations is not worthy of an article in an encyclopeadia and besides, such an aim is impossible. HCC.

I doubt that deleting the article entirely is a workable solution. Those who want an article on the "orgins, history, migrations and conquests, demographics, genetics, activities and accomplishments of White people" will simply start it up again. And those who know that the term no longer has a real-world referrent in scholarly work will want to teach this fact. See Piltdown Man or Cardiff Giant for articles with similar dilemmas. -- Frank W Sweet 15:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't get the Piltdown man and cardiff giant reference. These are well-known hoaxes: do you mean to imply that the white race is a hoax? Then who is doing (did?) the hoaxing? The articles don't describe the "usage of the term" but give straightforward accounts of the hoaxes; who what why when are all covered. The article on the white race is qualitatively different in its concentration on the "usage of the term" rather than about the subject itself. It is not at all encyclopeadic as it stands.

As I said, they were examples of articles that face the dilemma of describing something that lacks consensus as to its very existence. Another example is Tooth Fairy, which fails to describe the "real" attributes of its subject, but only what people say. Again, the basic problem is that you are unshakably convinced that you know precisely who is White and who is not. Please understand. The problem is not that you lack conviction. The problem is that you cannot find anyone else to agree with you on that specific point. How much European genetic admixture does it take to be White? (Alternatively, how much adherence to Western cultural values does it take to be White?) Look, I may even agree with you that the article is a mess. But we cannot fix it as long as everybody wants to talk about the history, traits, features, etc. of "White people" but cannot agree as to just who is White or even what that means. You might as well try to write an article on the "real" characteristcs of phlogiston. -- Frank W Sweet 18:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your " you are unshakably convinced that you know precisely who is White and who is not." I am as uncertain of who is and who is not white as most people, maybe even you. My uncertainty is something like the uncertainty I have toward what is, and what is not, pornography. But I could still write a pretty interesting and informative article about pornography without descending into the quagmire of the search for a precise definition of it, being reduced to blathering on about "usage of the term." I don't need a "precise definition" of either pornography, nor white race, to be able to write a good article about them. Some of the most interesting things in life lack "precise definitions" and are covered quite nicely in wikipedia articles. I would not try to write an article on the "real" characteristics of phlogiston, nor about the "real" charteristics of the white race. Again, I'd have no trouble writing an article titled "phlogiston." Mr. Sweet, you actually seem to have, to me, an unrealistic expectation of precision in ordinary language that just isn't there. White people exist, and there is some general consensus about who they are in the real world. At least in mine.DonSiano 19:24, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay I am convinced. You can write an "interesting and informative article" about White people without descending, blathering, or quagmires. I admit that I was wrong. I sincerely urge you to write the article. Please. I cheer you on. I eagerly await to see whether your article includes Puerto Ricans (90% of whom check off "White" on the census), Argentinians (who are all 100% White by their government's policy despite having a mean African admixture of 5%), the 74,000,000 Americans who check off "White" despite unknowingly having recent ancestors who passed through the U.S. color line, or the people of India. Please. Go for it! This I gotta see. -- Frank W Sweet 21:21, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

And HCC, what the heck is parasegmental? It is not in any of the 900 (onelook) dictionaries I've consulted. I understand you find the whole idea of a white race "quite offensive to a lot of people" but so is pornography. And wikipedia has a quite decent article on it--and not just on the "usage of the term," either. And it even manages several illustrations, which is more than one can say for this pathetic excuse for an article.DonSiano 18:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

These are your examples? Cardiff Giant, Piltdown Man, and the tooth fairy are examples in which a consensus does exist: they are not real.

That said, addressing the question of how the term "white" is used should be a major subject of this article. Moreover, I'm not sure off the top of my head how much else there is to say about it. We shall see. - Nat Krause 20:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

To say about what? You are not sure how much else there is to say about what? About the usage of "White"? Sheesh! I hope that there isn't anything more to say. We have beaten it into the ground! My goal is NOT to add more verbiage about usage. My goal to stop Eurocentrist rants over who is (or is not) White and to encourage citation of sources. I also want to discourage anyone who thinks that they alone can tell who is White, by personal inspection, as if human beings were something inert like pornography. People are not inert. We are individuals. We all have a mixture of ancestries. And, like it or not, each of us has the God-given right to ethnically self-identity however we damned well please. Anyone who would deny that right because they think that they alone can sniff out a person's true "race" is suffering from terminal arrogance bordering on lunacy. -- Frank W Sweet 22:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I was unclear. I meant, I'm not sure how much else there is to say about white people, beyond discussing how the term is and has been used. - Nat Krause 22:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Now that I look again, the article is pretty well formatted. The section Historic use of the term in the United States could be put in a seperate article and summarized back in here, but everything looks good to me right now. Aucaman 23:10, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I still believe that in order to stabilize the article, we must nail down whether its goal is: (1) To tell how the term "White people" is and has been used. Or (2) to describe the origins, history, migrations and conquests, demographics, genetics, activities and accomplishments of White people (and decide who gets to choose just who these people are). If we fail to define its basic mission, the article will continue to attract Eurocentrist rants and edit wars. -- Frank W Sweet 23:40, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Why can't we do both? Aucaman 01:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The short answer why not to mix both in the same article is because the article would thus balloon out of control. Try to give equal (NPOV) weight to every population on earth that that claims to be "White" by their own definition of Whiteness and you wind up with something as bloated as the Race article. -- Frank W Sweet 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The long answer is that any effort to describe White people as objectively delineable rather than a term without referent opens the door to unresolvable debates as to whether Arabs or Berbers or Egyptians are White (despite their own claims), whether Italians, Greeks, and Turks are White (no matter what they claim), whether Puerto Ricans, Argentineans, Chileans are White (ignoring their own beliefs), whether Pakistanis, Indians, and Bangladeshis are White (regardless of their own opinions). Every American thinks it obvious just who is White and who is not, and simply cannot grasp why others are so stubborn as to have their own unshakeable but differing beliefs. It is like debating whether Jesus Christ is present in the Eucharist--the issue arouses passionate belief but there is no way to resolve it or even to reach compromise. -- Frank W Sweet 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

If there is interest in an exposition of European populations or of Western culture (and if no other Wiki article already addresses it satisfactorily), then such a topic should have its own article. But I would call it "Native populations of Europe" or "European Culture" or "Western Values" or some such thing, because these can potentially be delineated objectively, not "White people" because this cannot. -- Frank W Sweet 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Too many diverse people around the world see themselves as "White", too many others have contempt for the term, and yet all have equal claim to credibility. The notion that there is a global consensus as to who is White is unspeakably ignorant. Since one of my two fields of expertise is molecular anthropology, I can speak with some authority as to how much European genetic admixture a population has. But no one can speak with authority as to how "White" a population is, since the term's denotation lacks consensus. -- Frank W Sweet 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I (a mere biophysicist) don't understand this. "White" and "a person of European ancestry", at least according to the dictionaries I've consulted, are synonyms (see Encarta, for example. How can you claim that the "the term's denotation lacks consensus?" Spend some time with dictionaries, on this question and you'll see what I mean. Really, I think debating the definition of "White" (when recourse to dictionaries is all that is required) is something of a "fools errand" and makes me a little giddy. Flat earth society, anyone?DonSiano 13:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Good grief! I already agreed that you should write the article. Do it. Please. Either contribute something to the article or stop whining about it. -- Frank W Sweet 13:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, take a look at the history of the article. I have contributed a bit and intend to contribute more, but it won't be about definitions and "usage of the term." I don't call my discussion of this "whining," but rather something more like clearing the air. I agree with you, after all, that it would be worthwhile to define the goal of the article. As it stands now, it should be renamed "White people (usage of the term)." I'd be happy with that as a resolution: titles of articles should reflect their content somehow... DonSiano 14:39, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. Either start writing or stop wasting our time. -- Frank W Sweet 15:04, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

In short, an article on the origins, history, migrations and conquests, demographics, genetics, activities and accomplishments of Europeans or their culture is doable; a similar article on "White people" is a fool's errand. -- Frank W Sweet 02:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I am glad to see that you are coming around to the view that it is worthwhile to get beyond the sterile and futile debate about the "precise definition" of white people and the exclusive focus on the "usage of the term" to wanting to include something about the subject of the article itself. Much of this should be brief, with links to other longer articles, I suppose, given the length of the article already.DonSiano 13:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I have repeated, over and over (as for example on 17:55, 13 April 2006), that:

I would be happy to help write a new article on European genetic lineages, or on European (or Western) culture, or on physical traits unique to (or prepoderantly found in) natives of Europe and their descendants. Alternatively, if most editors want to switch this article to an exposition of any or all of these topics, I would be glad to re-title the article to anything along those lines. The problem is not with the existence of Europeans, their descendants, or their culture. The problem is that everyone defines "White people" differently (some, for example do not consider European Jews to be White).

Good lord! What is your problem? Why don't you go ahead and start writing? I look forward to a biophysicist's explanation of whether Puerto Ricans (average 50-50 Afro-European admixture) are truly White, as they claim, or if they are mistaken. Please. Stop whining and start writing. -- Frank W Sweet 13:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think that the article is more US-centric than anything else. Then, for Siano, I do not think that a lot of people find the existence of a white race offensive. I think they find offensive how the term white is often used, because it has been used so often with so many connotations, that now it is impossible to use it with a neutral meaning, just to refer to a group of people; in other words, the term has been burnt out.

In any case, I can see that there are a lot of perspectives here. I have already expressed my opinion about presenting an article based on subjective perceptions of what a topic is supposed to be. I would do it otherwise, but since the article is already there and I guess it is not going to be redone, at least I think it is important to introduce some objective comments about the topic as well. To claim that the article should only deal about the concept in question without any objective comments that can be based on geography, history, culture, genetics etc. would be too much. HCC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.59.206 (talk • contribs)

As to the anonimous person who says he could write an objective article about the white people, I encourage him/her to do it. In spite of Frank Sweet's attempts to try to turn the term white into something impossible to define, or something just established by US society or any other society, no one can deny that it is associated with the people of Europe. To try to turn the article into something about there history etc, would be too long and I think that it is not the point either. The genographic project by National Geographic is very useful to shed light on the people who are considered white, the people of Europe and other areas. As to the situation of mixed populations, I do not see a problem. There is no probem is asserting that a population can be of European and other ancestries. Only a racist can imply that. As I said, the term wite in itself is very controversial, but I do not imply that there are not populations that are called white. They are in Europe and other areas, but the place of origin is the Area around Europe. That perspective would be much more objective and the article more worthy of this place.

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

The link to the genographic project is above. By the way, I have already seen some people trying to downpaly the importance of this project, probably because it discovers things that they do not like. I call that science. What is in the article now is not the result of science. It should be noted that up to now no individual, group or univertisy has come even close to the magnitude of the work done in this project and no other scientific work comes closer into the nature of human populatons, in Europe or elsewhere. HCC.

HCC wrote: As to the... person who says he could write an objective article about the white people, I encourage him/her to do it. I second the motion (actually, this would be fourth or fifth... I have lost count). -- Frank W Sweet 14:22, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Attempting to reach consensus

I am very confused as to why some people find it so hard to accept that the definition of white and the history of the "white race" are two different things. Is this because they feel that the "White people" article is the only portion of Misplaced Pages where their heritage is represented? Why are they so obsessed with claiming the white label as their own and not letting anyone else have it, even refusing to believe that some people they don't see as white see themselves as white and are seen by others as white? DonSiano claims that we can write about the white race without knowing who they are. I guess this is theoretically possible, but we'd also have to write in detail about all the peoples who are or have been called white, because if we don't, a member of one of these groups will come in here pissed as hell calling us racists for excluding them from our definition of the "white race". Proposed solution: DonSiano et al should be encouraged to be proud of their culture and heritage, and to contribute to articles directly and unambiguously related to their culture and heritage. In DonSiano's case, this would seem to be European history and culture, though for all I know he might have other influences in his background that he considers significant. For others, it may vary. Since almost all definitions of "white" include, but are not necessarily limited to Europeans (as this article states), we can link to those articles from this page. The article should continue to clearly state that Europeans are considered white by pretty much everybody, even those who also consider others to be white. But I think keeping the definition page separate from a page about ethnic groups would help clear things up. Is this acceptable? If not, please explain why. Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 16:42, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Pro -- If we can figure out how to keep those who want to "contribute to articles directly and unambiguously related to their culture and heritage" out of here, it would certainly stop the constant flaming. I agree to your suggestion. -- Frank W Sweet 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Con -- On the other hand, I have no problem with anyone adding sourced material (or linking to it, either way) about European peoples and their culture. But it must be about European peoples and their Culture not about some exclusive "White race." For example, DonSiano wrote the opening sentence of the "Prehistory" paragraph as, "The prehistory of the White race can be traced by...", despite his knowing full well that NO reputable journal would accept such an opening. NONE. On the other hand, written as, "The prehistory of the European peoples can be traced by..." is perfectly acceptable. More to the point, it makes no difference to me where in Misplaced Pages such a blatantly racialist statement was written. I would personally hunt it down and kill it no matter where it lurked. -- Frank W Sweet 17:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The reason that I would hunt it down and kill it is not because "a member of one of these groups will come in here pissed as hell calling us racists for excluding them from our definition of the 'white race'." It is because reifying White racial exclusivity turns Wiki into a racialist laughing-stock among the billions of people who consider themselves "White" because of Western culture (Latin Americans), because of European appearance (North Africans and Middle Easterners), or because they were the original Indo-Europeans (Indians and Pakistanis), or because U.S. anthropologists (Carleton Coon) said they were "Caucasoids" (Somalis and Ethiopians). It is counterproductive to rub U.S. racialist idealogy in everybody's face in a venue that is meant to be educational. It is not mere "political correctness" to accept that other non-Europeans (and other former colonies) have as much claim to European heritage as USAmericans do. -- Frank W Sweet 17:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all that Frank says here. Still I think the article could analyse the people who call themselves white, from a genetic point of view, because I think that that is extremely objective, and we have information available now that was not available some time ago. Then it could also speak of populations with white admixtures, without having to tell them in the face that the Americans or any others say that they are not white. Anyone is free to identify with any ethnic or racial group. But some objective insight into the topic is always sound, especially here. Besides, the objective analysis of the Europeans will reveal that their ancestry is much richer than previously thought, and will both help clarify the issue from a racial point of view, while at the same time will present evidence before a lot of racist folk who think in some kind of purity of the white race, but not because it is politically correct to do so, but simply because it is just like that. To begin with, here you have the haplogroup map of Europe in page 2: http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

As it can be seen the genetic lineages are a lot in Europe. The R1b is the most common, also the oldest in the continent, and we could say the most distinctly European, because it shows its highest concentration in Europe; yet, it is the majority Haplogroup in only five countries and in this order: Ireland, Spain, Portugal, The United Kingdom and France (with the highest concentration in the Spanish Basque Country). The other haplogroups are all very interesting. HCC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.144.228.81 (talk • contribs)

Analyzing the indigenous inhabitants of Europe from a genetic point of view is an excellent idea, which I support wholeheartedly. But analyzing people who call themselves white is not such a good idea. As I have stated (and footnoted) with tedious regularity, 90% of Puerto Ricans consider themselves White although we average 50-50 Afro-European admixture. They definitely call themselves White but they are half African. To analyze them, we would have to write about the eastward-moving Bantu agricultural expansion, (which was analogous to, driven by the same forces, and had the same impact including the creation of hunter-gatherer enclaves, as the Indo-European expansion westwards into Europe). Does anyone really want to do that in this article? Saying that we want to study the phylogegraphy of people who call themselves white reopens the very can of worms that I am trying to close. Saying that we want to study the phylogegraphy of the indigenous inhabitants of Europe is clean, succinct, to the point, and keeps that particular can of worms closed. -- Frank W Sweet 02:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree the wording should be rather as you say, but this would be a fundamental contribution to the article, because we all know the relatioship between the terms European and White. Then this contribution should be very clean. We should not confuse genetic terms with linguistic terms or any others. For example Indo-European refers to a language family that extends from India to Europe, and there are different theories about its origins. It is not possible to link it with certainty with any of the various genetic lineages found in Europe. In any case, linguistics is not the subject of the article. HCC.

Well, I am not going to write anything based on linguistics since I am ignorant in the field. My field is DNA (and U.S. history, of course), so I am more comfortable writing about the flow of haplogroups. But I would not object if someone else could shed light on the early Europeans using linguistics in this article. After all, look at Cavalli-Sforza. (Come to think of it, we have the same problem in Africa. "Bantu" is a group of language families, not a cohesive tribe or nation.) -- Frank W Sweet 03:44, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, Ferdinand de Sausurre, a prominent linguist of the 19th century and father to European linguistic structuralism, pointed out in his fundamental work Cours de Lingusitic General, that language and race should not me confused. By now that is already clear enough. Something else would be to write about the languages spoken by the peoples lumped together under the term white, but that could be a separate section.

As to the main point now, many more interesting conclusions can be drawn here. The following is fundamental taking into account the term that we are trying to analyse ¨white¨.

One does not have to be a rocket scientist to see the following:

1. People who belong in the same genetic lineage show different degrees of skin pigmentation according to latitude.

2. People who belong in different genetic lineages can show similar degrees of skin pigmentation according to latitude.

Conclusion:

1. Skin pigmentation has been used to lump people together into the same ¨race¨ , as if they had the same genetic lineage.

2. Skin pigmentation has been used to lump people into different races, as if they had different genetic lineages.

3. Skin pigmentation is a superficial adaptation to the environment, especially to sun exposure, which does not imply ¨same genetic lineage¨.

I do not want to write about this genetic section myself. I am just giving ideas. HCC.

Some comments about the genetic section.

I know I haven't been very good at keeping up with everything that's going on in this article and discussion page, but just a thought: Would a small section discussing European genetic admixture, with links to more in-depth articles, be appropriate? That way, the article answers a few questions related to "white people": Who is called/has been called white? What is the genetic makeup of these people(s) like, at a glance? The second question is useful because it leads into a scientific debunking of the concept of narrowly defined races. ThePedanticPrick 16:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I must admit that I would have done it otherwise, but I must also commend the one who made the effort to write it. But I have to make a few objections. There is a point in which I am specially interested: I have read some literature as to the presence of subsaharan genetic markers in Portugal, as a result of slave trade and their colonial presence in Africa, but not in Spain, Italy or Greece. Then, it is especially interesting in relation to Greece, since Greece was never a colonial power. Could the author cite the sources for that?. It would be interesting to have them. Then, another thing is the Indo-European question. That theory tries tho link them to the people who carry the R1a haplogroup. The main flaw is that the population in which that genetic marker is most prevalent, the Altaians, do not speak an Indo-European language. Then there is the question of the Basques. The Basques show the highest concentration of the R1b haplougroup,whih is of course Pre-Indoeuropean, but they are not a small pocket because of that. That genetic marker is the most common in Europe, especially Western Europe. We should not confuse language and genetics. HCC.

DonSiano started if with a paragraph on the IE expansion, including linguistics. I added the earlier and later material. Per your suggestion, I just added a footnote pointing the reader to a large indexed collection of serious, reputable, peer-reviewed journal articles on the topic. The collection is arranged by region. Please feel free to browse around in there. A few are just abstracts (due to copyright) but most are full-text PDFs. The collection is part of a discussion group that my company (Backintyme Publishing) hosts on the internet. If you are interested in phylogeography or molecular anthropology, I would encourage you to lurk and browse through the debates and discussions about the articles. The place to start is at Molecular Anthropology and Genetics. -- Frank W Sweet 04:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that you might find it interesting because the two questions that you asked above were recently discussed. Regarding Sicily and Greece, it is interesting that they alone have sex-symmetrical sub-Saharan intrusion. The other countries have measurable mtDNA markers but no Y markers. Our discussion focused on the suggestion that sex-symmetrical admixture relects mass migrations (for the same reasons that Y-preponderant intrusion reveals military conquest and mtDNA-preponderant intrusion reveals slave importation). If so, then the sub-Saharan intrusions in Sicily and Greece may well reflect the much earlier re-colonization of Europe after the LGM, and not reflect the slave trade at all. I hasten to point out that this suggestion was made by the members of my discussion group, not by the authors of articles, who still believe that it relates to the 1500-1800 slave trade. -- Frank W Sweet 04:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the Basques, their unique pre-IE marker is not the R1b, which, as you say is ubiquitous in Europe. It is the prevalence of the "cde" haplotype of the "Rho" or "rhesus" blood group gene. It may seem like cheating to rely on an autosomal marker rather than mtDNA or Y, but the IE expansion into Europe was very sex-asymmetrical (just like their expansion into Dravidian India). Again this was discussed at length at Molecular Anthropology and Genetics. Please feel free to join us there, if you wish. -- Frank W Sweet 04:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the section is OK and the article is better now. HCC.

I don't. I still fail to see what the prehistory of Europe has to do with the post-Reformation notion, "White people." But I am clearly outvoted on this, so I shall try to make the best of it. -- Frank W Sweet 13:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, just as I said, the notion was and is often linked to concepts of purity, in the sense of a race very different from other races in Asia or Africa. That information is useful, because a lot of people really continue to think more or less like that, and an insight into the very nature of the origins and genetic make-up of the Europeans is useful. I would also have it otherwise. I would not have introduced the linguistic aspect, and would not have described the Basques like that, but I guess people have different perspectives. HCC.

I am sorry to come across as a bitter, cynical old man. But we have now introduced a whole new cast of characters: (1) neandertals, (2) the pre-LGM folks who came in north of the Black Sea, (3) the pre-LGM folks who came in south of the Black Sea, (4) the populations who came from the four corners of the world to reclaim prime real estate when the ice melted, (5) the mongols, huns, scythians and uncounted other waves from Asia that washed over Europe in historical times, and (6) the millions of Europeans today who have traces of "black" subsaharan DNA from the slave trade. All were immigrants. Mark my words. I hereby predict that the new section will start an interminable series of unsourced rants that one of those six groups or another was not "really White." If I am bitter and cynical it is because Wikipeida has made me so. -- Frank W Sweet

You may be right. I would have used the two sources that I have introduced because they are global and reputable, and also because they are not based on historical or linguistic theories. The genetic markers that they cover are very much alive and kicking in everyone of us. But I would have made a very concise and objective analysis and just invite people to browse those sources themselves. But still, people like you and I know these things, but I assure you that a lot of people are absolutely ignorant of those facts, and have a lot of wrong and mythical ideas about the white and European peoples in their heads. It is precisely the aim of an Encyclopeadia to bring the maximum light into the topics covered. HCC.

Chileans

FWIW, I happen to agree with 60.226.67.122 that Chileans are almost as obsessive about their Whiteness as Puerto Ricans are, and with a great deal more genetic justification. The problem is that Ethiopians, Somalis, the mixed Boer-Khoisan communities of SW Africa, as well as the people of Pakistan, India, and Bangla Desh also have their own reasons to claim Whiteness. I wish that I could suggest some litmus test that could tell just who has the right to claim the mantle of White heritage, but I regret that I do not. -- Frank W Sweet

This is what I meant by my statement about race being a meme. Everyone is focused on being white when in reality the term is only a concept created to divide the human race into various categories. see (memetic engineering)Everyone in the world is a Negro according to Stanley Poole- author of The Moors in Spain because Africa is where the human race originated. Although climate changes the physical features.--Gnosis 16:26, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

unnecessary Irish-hate speech

Devon21 removed a quotation from the 1860 American encyclopedia, saying that it is "unnecessary Irish-hate speech not relevant to 'White'." I suggest that the quotation is necessary to show the virulence of anti-Irish feeling of the time. (After all, the Know-Nothings were at their peak then.) It is relevant to the topic of this article because, along with the accounts of Germans, Italians, Jews, and others, it shows that being from Europe did not necessarily make you immediately accepted as White in America back then. The point of this section is to demonstrate that the cognitive research findings of Kurzban, Tooby, and Cosmides are correct. People are not seen as "other" because they look different. They are perceived as looking different because they are seen as "other." -- Frank W Sweet 02:52, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Your source is non-reliable. Please stop pushing POV and finding dubious sources to back up your ideology. Thanks.Devon21 04:52, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Sub-Saharan admixture in Europe

The information on sub-Saharan African admixture in Europe is inaccurate. Only Portugal has up to 8% L mtDNA (Holland and Belgium may also, but no definitive data is available ). Italy and Spain have <3% and Greece has none at all, making those countries no different from Britain, France, Germany and others in this respect. Here's a source listing the L sequences found in various European populations: Pereira et al. (2005)

The information on sub-Saharan Y-DNA on this discussion page is also wrong. No Y-chromosome proposed to be of black slave or other Negroid derivation has ever been detected in Sicily or Greece. -- Small Victory

The link cited above goes to a notoriously ideological web page, whose mission is to deny African admixture in modern Europeans. For one thing, it fraudulently claims that several of the following studies have been retracted. The following, in contrast, are scholarly, peer-reviewed sources:

For Sicily, see: The following use mtDNA, Y, and autosomal markers to illuminate hemoglobin:

• S.G. Sandler et al., "Blood group phenotypes and the origin of sickle cell hemoglobin in Sicilians," Acta Haematologica 1978;60(6):350-7.
• G. Schiliro et al., "Presence of hemoglobinopathies in Sicily: a historic perspective," American Journal of Medical Genetics, 1997 Mar 17;69(2):200-6.
• G. Schiliro et al., "Clinical, hematological, and molecular features in Sicilians with sickle cell disease," Hemoglobin, 1992;16(6):469-80.
• E.F.R. Roth et al., "Sickle cell disease in Sicily," Journal of Medical Genetics, 1980 Feb;17(1):34-8.
• A. Ragusa, et al., "Beta S gene in Sicily is in linkage disequilibrium with the Benin haplotype: implications for gene flow," American Journal of Hematology 1988 Feb;27(2):139-41.
• G.R. Serjeant, "The geography of sickle cell disease: opportunities for understanding its diversity," Annals of Saudi Medicine, 27 November 1993.
• M. Travi et al., "Molecular characterization of hemoglobin C in Sicily," American Journal of Hematology, 1992 Jan;39(1):5-8.
• F. Cataldo, et al., "Evidence of Negro origin of HbC in Sicily," Haematologica, 1987 Jan-Feb;72(1):95-6.

The following use mtDNA, Y, and autosomal markers to trace ancestry.

• R.E. Bernstein, "'African' genetic markers in Sicilians," Acta Haematologica 1980;63(3):174-5.
• P. Sammarco et al., "Evidence of the African origin of sickle cell hemoglobin in western Sicily," Hemoglobin, 1988;12(2):193-6.
• A. Ragusa, et al., "Presence of an African beta-globin gene cluster haplotype in normal chromosomes in Sicily," American Journal of Hematology 1992 Aug;40(4):313-5.
• O. Semino et al., "Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Italy. III. Population data from Sicily: a possible quantitation of maternal African ancestry," Annals of Human Genetics, 1989 May;53 ( Pt 2):193-202.
• C.M. Calo et al., "Genetic analysis of a Sicilian population using 15 short tandem repeats," Human Biology, Apr 2003.
• M.E. Ghiani et al., "New data on the genetic structure of the population of Sicily: analysis of the Alia population (Palermo, Italy)," American Journal of Human Biology, 2002 May-Jun;14(3):289-99.

The following specifically look at Y:

• Z.H. Rosser et al., "Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe Is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language," American Journal of Human Genetics, 67:1526-1543, 2000.
• M.E. Ghiani et al., "Y-chromosome 10 locus short tandem repeat haplotypes in a population sample from Sicily Italy," Legal Medicine, 2004 Apr;6(2):89-96.
• G. Lucotte et al., "Y-chromosome haplotypes in Corsica," Comptes Rendus Biologies, 2002 Mar;325(3):191-6.

For Greece:

• A. Arnaiz-Villena et al., "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks," Tissue Antigens, 2001 Feb;57(2):118-27.
• M. Boussiou et al.' "The origin of the sickle mutation in Greece; evidence from beta S globin gene cluster polymorphisms," Hemoglobin. 1991;15(6):459-67.
• F. Di Giacomo et al., "Clinal patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects," Molecular phylogenetics and evolution, 2003 Sep;28(3):387-95.

Again, I urge anyone interested in this topic to read the articles for themselves at http://backintyme.com/ODR/viewtopic.php?t=1071. -- Frank W Sweet 16:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

TRANSLATION: You have no sources pointing to L mtDNA in Greece or Negroid Y-DNA in Greece and Sicily, so you desperately compiled a list of old blood group and off-topic studies in a transparent attempt to cover your lies.

And btw, not a single one of those studies uses autosomal DNA. Time to go back to Population Genetics 101. Here's where autosomal analyses place Greeks, Italians and Iberians in relation to Africans:

HLA polymorphismams are autosomal! Alu variations are autosomal! Even the isolated principal-component diagrams that you link to in the above sentence, are autosomal! Do you even know what "autosomal" means? Here is a direct quotation from the Arnaiz-Villena article that used HLA (autosomal on chromosome #5):

Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans.
Much to our surprise, the reason why Greeks did not show a close relatedness with all the other Mediterraneans analyzed was their genetic relationship with sub-Saharan ethnic groups now residing in Ethiopia, Sudan, and West Africa (Burkino-Fasso). Although some Greek DRB1 alleles are not completely specific of the Greek/sub-Saharan sharing, the list of alleles is self-explanatory. The conclusion is that part of the Greek genetic pool may be sub-Saharan and that the admixture has occurred at an uncertain but ancient time.
The origin of the West African Black ethnic groups (Fulani, Mossi, and Rimaibe sampled in Burkina-Fasso) is probably Ethiopian. The Fulani are semi-nomadic hunters and gatherers and one of the few people in the area to use cows' milk and its by-products to feed themselves and to trade; their facial parameters show a Caucasian admixture. The Rimaibe Blacks had been slaves belonging to the Fulani and have frequently mixed with them. The Nuba people are now widespread all over Sudan, but are descendants of the ancient Nubians that ruled Egypt between 8th-7th centuries B.C. and later established their kingdom at Meroe, North Khartoum. Two kinds of Nubians were described in ancient times: Reds and Blacks, probably reflecting the degree of Caucasian admixture. Both the Oromo and Amharic peoples live in the Ethiopian mountains. They obviously have in common a genetic background with the west-African groups mentioned above. Linguistic, social, traditional, and historical evidence supports an east-to-west migration of peoples through the Sahel (southern Sahara strip), although this is still debated.
Thus, it is hypothesized that there could have been a migration from southern Sahara which mixed with ancient Greeks to give rise to a part of the present day Greek genetic background. The admixture must have occurred in the Aegean Islands and Athens area at least. The reason why this admixture is not seen in Crete is unclear but may be related to the influential and strong Minoan empire which hindered foreigners' establishment. Also, the time when admixture occurred could be after the overthrow of some of the Negroid Egyptian dynasties (Nubian or from other periods) or after undetermined natural catastrophes (i.e.: dryness). Indeed, ancient Greeks believed that their religion and culture came from Egypt. -- Frank W Sweet 13:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Y: again, many recent studies have reported on such sub-Saharan Y chromosome haplotypes as E-M35* in Sicily and Greece. Two recent ones are F. Cruciani et al., "Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa," Am J Hum Genet. May 2004; 74(5): 1014–1022; and O. Semino et al., "Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory Events in the Mediterranean Area," Am J Hum Genet. May 2004; 74(5): 1023–1034. What would it take to convince you that these people are not making it up? -- Frank W Sweet 09:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

If you don't change the paragraph on sub-Saharan admixture to reflect reality, I will. ---- Small Victory

And someone will revert it, of course. You cannot remove material citing scholarly peer-reviewed scientific sources without citing refuting scholarly peer-reviewed sources, just because you have an idealogical dislike for their findings. Links to an idealogical website are simply not credible. Such insistence on ignoring real sources would be in violation of WP:NOR. -- Frank W Sweet 09:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Of course the sources I referenced are autosomal studies (learn how to read), but the ones you listed are not. They're single-locus analyses, and therefore of very little value (especially the one using the HLA-DRB1 locus ).

E-M35* is a subclade of E3b, which is not "sub-Saharan." It's East African and prehistoric. No research has ever linked it to black slaves or other Negroid peoples. And anyway, Cruciani and Semino detected it only in Sicilians, and at a rate of just 1.6% (3/191). The Y-DNA marker that's Negroid-affiliated is E(xE3b), which has never been detected in either Sicily or Greece.

The paragraph on sub-Saharan admixture falsely claims that all southern Europeans have 4-8% L mtDNA. Those figures apply only to Portugal. Italy and Spain have <3% and Greece has zero. Furthermore, many northern Europeans have similar levels of L. The data needs to be corrected...and it will be. ---- Small Victory

Of course there is sub-Saharan admixture in Europe. There is sub-Saharan, above-Saharan, Asian etc. And of course, there is nothing wrong with that. We are richer because of that. Just browse well the Haplogroups of Europe. HCC.

Trans-Saharan slave trade into Europe

Where does the figure of 8 million slaves imported to Europe come from? That sounds very high.--JWB 03:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

See the main article Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe where it is footnoted as: Pier M. Larson, "Reconsidering Trauma, Identity, and the African Diaspora: Enslavement and Historical Memory in Nineteenth-Century Highland Madagascar," William and Mary Quarterly 56, no. 2 (1999): 335-62. Larson, in turn, got it from the hugely detailed Appendix in Hugh Thomas, The Slave Trade: The Story of the Atlantic Slave Trade: 1440-1870 (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997). Thomas, in turn, has a chapter-long bibliographical essay explaining all the sources that he used. Since 1997, Thomas is the best source for slave trade statistics. -- Frank W Sweet 04:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking at Hugh Thomas's book via amazon.com's Search Inside feature. Appendix 3 estimates slaves delivered to Europe (including Portugal, Madeira, Azores, Canary Islands, etc.) at 200,000.--JWB 04:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I think that you are right. Eight million is too high and Larson could not have gotten the number from Thomas. Check out footnote 3 on page 336 of The Larson Article. Apparently, the 8 million is the total transported north across the Sahara to the Mediterranean coast. But most of these apparently stayed in North Africa and were not sold on the north (European) coast. In fact, another source mentioned in the footnote puts the total trans-Saharan volume at only four million. -- Frank W Sweet 12:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

The footnote points to but Amazon does not provide Search Inside for this book, so I can't easily trace it back further.

8 or even 4 million still sounds like a high figure, comparable to the whole population of the Maghreb in premodern times. If 4-8 million slaves left any significant number of descendants, the present Maghreb population would likely have more sub-Saharan genetic heritage.

On the other hand, if the trans-Saharan trade is assumed to have gone on for 1 or 2 millenia, the average yearly figure could be as little as 2000 slaves. It is likely that someone started with a yearly estimate such as this and extrapolated, something which can quickly lead to error, as I've seen with estimates of "the number of humans who have ever lived".

Many slaves were used to work the salt mines in the middle of the Sahara itself and would not have left any descendants farther north, if at all.

In any case, the passage "the eight million taken to Europe" in Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe is quite misleading and needs to be change.

Actually, during most of the Islamic period, the predominant direction of the slave trade across the Mediterreanean was south, not north.--JWB 22:32, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

FrankWSweet's insistence on pushing Irish-hate

FrankWSweet should not have placed his own work as a "source", on a Misplaced Pages article that he edits frequently. Furthermore, FrankW insists on pushing exceptions to make his case, and uses dubious ideological/anti-White sources.

None of the material that you removed came from my own work, but that of others. All of it was cited quotations from scholarly, peer-reviewed work. If you can cite scholarly peer-reviewed work that contradicts or refutes anything in the article, please post it. Otherwise, your repeated removal of material simply because you do not like it is in blatant violation of WP:NOR and is now approaching vandalism. -- Frank W Sweet 09:17, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Celts are White and they are Northern European. Can we stop with the Ignatiev-like hatred and revisionist history? Devon21 04:50, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Celts are not northern European unless you think Spain is in northern Europe, since Asturias and Galicia are intensely Celtic and were the place from whence ancestors of the Irish and Scots came. See Galicia (Spain)#History. There is no hatred in revealing what happened in the past. There are only cited, referenced facts. Oddly, none of the sources in the paragraph that you keep trashing cite either Sweet or Ignative. -- Frank W Sweet 09:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Celtic people are White. They look more White than "middle easterners". Sweet you are being dishonest. Why? Why do insist on pushing Berbers are White, yet the Irish are not? Care to explain? 12.125.172.242 22:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I have never said that anyone is (or is not) White, neither Berbers, Irish, nor anyone else. I simply insist on adherence to WP:V. Your refusal to abide by WP:V has become outright vandalism. -- Frank W Sweet 22:47, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

FrankWSweet, nobody has vandalized anything. You must abide by "No Originial Research" and "NPOV". Your biased views make the article highly POV.Devon21 01:14, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

My citing scholarly peer-reviewed sources cannot possibly be considered original research. -- Frank W Sweet 03:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism is inserting non-encyclopedic sources filled with hate speech into this article. Please stop bigotry, and placing absurd, mean-spirited exceptions to make a point or produce a "rule". Misplaced Pages is not a place to make a point. This is non-encyclopedic: "savage, groveling and bestial, lazy and wild, simian