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Summary is overly critical and undue weight is given to critics of Gujarat's development

Of the 3 ending summary lines, 2 are critical. "His administration has been severely criticised for the incidents surrounding the 2002 Gujarat violence. He has been praised for his economic policies which are credited with creating the environment for the high rate of economic growth in Gujarat. However, his administration has also been criticised for failing to make a significant positive impact upon the human development of the state."

Overall Gujarat's development under Modi is hardly disputed though there will always be critics. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/Why-the-Gujarat-miracle-matters/articleshow/20820774.cms The criticism on the economic front is already covered within the article and does not need to be repeated up front, especially when it is a minority view. This is a classic case of WP:UNDUE The Gujarat riots criticism line in the summary has however been kept since that is clearly a major uncontested issue. Puck42 (talk) 23:47, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The lede is meant to be a summary of the article, so it is not undue to have a criticism of the "Gujarat miracle" in the lede. Darkness Shines (talk) 23:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

The LEAD needs to summarize the body of the article, including all notable views. The critique of MOdi is not only notable, it is ubiquitous in reliable sources, even those that do not agree with the criticisms very rarely fails to mention it. Also whether the critique is a minority view is not clear, in the most reliable sources such as academic publications it is the majority view. Whether it is a minority view in the indian public remains to be seen.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:01, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

The criticism is a minority view in that it holds that "not all sections benefited" and should not be given the same weight as the undisputed view that there was considerable development under Modi, borne out by http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-09-22/news/34022206_1_poverty-ratio-narendra-modi-gujarat "Not all sections benefitted" can pretty much be said for anyone and any development and though it is clutching at straws it still has been given plenty of WP:UNDUE weight in the article already without it also being in the summary. Puck42 (talk) 00:13, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

That is a false weighting of the criticism and the statement of development. The fact that it didnt benefit all social groups equally is also undisputed. What makes it a notable criticism is that it is prominent in the sources.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:18, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The lead section has been discussed at length, as has much else in this article. Writing a good lead for a controversial topic is quite a skill and not one that I'm much use at doing. It does, however, seem pretty reasonable to me in its present state. Your argument appears to basically be that the lead includes a truism and I really do not see the problem with that. Certainly, the pros and cons of the economics issue are discussed at length in the body and thus we have to reflect them in the lead. We can't just say, for example, that there has been an economic miracle under Modi when in fact there are reliable sources which question it. - Sitush (talk) 00:20, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

"Whether it is a minority view in the indian public remains to be seen.." We are talking about Gujarat here and the people of Gujarat has already voted him back for an unprecedented fourth term, stating in no uncertain terms what the people he impacted with the development think of his development claims, arm chair critics in the US notwithstanding. The way the lede reads is biased to the critical side which is simply not borne out by the fact of his reelection as one of the most popular CM's in his state of all time. Puck42 (talk) 00:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

But this is not the Gujarat wikipedia. Our coverage reflects global coverage of Modi, not just the feelings of a majority of Gujaratis.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:29, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

And it is WP:OR to assume that Modi won an election mainly because of his economic strategy. It is rarely that simple and, as a rule, governments lose elections rather than win them. - Sitush (talk) 00:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

His popularity among the electorate is irrelevant. We cannot remove content based on whether the lead is "too critical" or "too positive." We have to accurately reflect good sources. Among academic sources, criticism of the Gujarat development model is far more common than praise; if anything, the lead is not explicit enough about this. Misplaced Pages is not attempting to reflect public opinion; it reflects academic opinion, or tries, anyhow.Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:32, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

His popularity is a fact as measured by the election results, which are not in dispute. The criticism of development is a contested opinion. The article lead is high on opinion and low in facts and gives undue importance to these opinions. Puck42 (talk) 00:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

It looks more like a case of your comments being high on opinion and low on fact. The lead summarises the article; the article is reliably sourced; period. - Sitush (talk) 00:46, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

You mean like the Cato Institute that ranks Gujarat under Modi as the #1 state in India in economic freedom? http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/economic-freedom-india-2013/economic-freedom-states-of-india-2013.pdf

Removed superlatives , and went through reference, removed too generic terms like human development, should we go into more protection as it may get messeier Shrikanthv (talk) 06:27, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

claims of being member of RSS & Hindu nationalist , I went through the reference and found it'S not factually stating the claim in the lead and the gross meaning can misslead into a POV , here are there reference below for above claim

1) no where in the reference is it claiming he is a member of RSS ! 2) the hindu nationlist is just present in one interview article (seems more like he is re-afirming a claim in an interview) , and the lead may seem to branded as something !!

references

1) the actual link here

2) another terrible source here, it also goes on to proclaim that babies where thrown to fire ! , do not know if we should include that too. but no where talks about he being member of RSS and branding hindu nationalist!

3) ^ Menon, Kalyani Devaki (2012). Everyday Nationalism: Women of the Hindu Right in India. University of Pennsylvania Press. p. 26. ISBN 978-0812222340. "Yet, months after this violent pogrom against Muslims, the Hindu nationalist chief minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi, went to the polls and won a resounding victory"

comment  : really seems like a opinion to me

4) Jump up ^ Mishra, Pankaj (2011). Kamala Visweswaran, ed. Perspectives on Modern South Asia: A Reader in Culture, History, and Representation. Wiley-Blackwell. p. 188. ISBN 978-1405100625. "The chief minister of Gujarat, a young up-and-coming leader of the Hindu nationalists called Narendra Modi, quoted Isaac Newton to explain the killings of Muslims. “Every action”, he said, “has an equal and opposite reaction.”"

::  comment  : again really seems like a opinion to me and used in general terms 

should we go ahead and remove this ? please discuss Shrikanthv (talk) 06:43, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Darkness Shines I ask you to discuss here Shrikanthv (talk) 06:52, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

All this shit was discussed before, the sources are fine, and Modi calls himself a nationalist. Darkness Shines (talk) 06:56, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

lets take one at at time The last line "" However, his administration has also been criticised for failing to make a significant positive impact upon the human development of the state. the last line ""

what do you mean by human development refer to the source here

and how was the significant measured ? ,

Would suggest to change the wording to the following according to summary from there reference

" according to some researchers his administration has given rise to polarised social change and economic growth, having stronger support from urban dwellers "

Shrikanthv (talk) 07:08, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

With all due respect, your version is a lot more vague and wordy. "Human development" is a very commonly used academic term; it's a catch all for education, health, and poverty indices. Besides, there are no academics who actually argue that development has reached everybody; all the academics supporting him just talk about overall growth, and sometimes infrastructure, so the qualifier is not just unnecessary, it would be a misrepresentation. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Weasel-y heading

The section heading Debate on Gujarat "miracle" is a breach of WP:MOSHEAD and WP:WEA. Basically, we've got an unattributed quote in there and the use of quotation marks around the word carries judgemental overtones. It would breach WP:PEA if the quote marks were not there.

I've no idea if Modi has called it a "miracle" but one of the sources uses the terms (without quote marks) in its own title. I suggest that we replace with Debate on economic policies or some such. - Sitush (talk) 07:39, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

• Similar issues with Terrorism and elections in 2007–2008 section? It reads a bit like "election campaigning". However, should not it be under "Third term (2007-2008)" section instead "Second term (2002–2007)" section? Many of the contents actually belong to Gujarat article. For example, texts under "Third term (2007-2008)" section reads as follow,

Gujarat is a semi-arid state and, according to Tushaar Shah, was "... never known for agrarian dynamism" but in recent years has improved its agricultural output substantially, in large part due to projects relating to improvement of groundwater supplies in Saurashtra,Kachchh and the north, as well as efforts to increase the use of micro-irrigation and to provide more efficient power supply to farms. Public irrigation measures in the central and southern areas, such as the Sardar Sarovar Project, have not been so successful in achieving their aims.

I'm not sure how it is related to Modi. It'd be better if we put contents of Terrorism and elections in 2007–2008 section under this "Third term (2007-2008)"? Anupmehra -Let's talk! 09:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree completely, how about something like "debate around economic development" or even just "economic development."? I'm not entirely sure about the other section, but how about "third term (2007-20012) and 2012 elections" ? Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I am glad this topic was raised once my edit removing the scare quotes was reverted. Anyone care to explain why the reference to the Cato Institute study was removed? Not prejudiced enough? http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/economic-freedom-india-2013/economic-freedom-states-of-india-2013.pdf Puck42 (talk) 20:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

From seeing stuff about the Cato Institute elsewhere, I get the impression that they're a bunch of fringe-y right-wing oddballs who have formed a club. Perhaps that is the reason? - Sitush (talk) 21:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I agree as well, "Debate on economic policies/development" for me, sounds good. However I could go for something else better, might show up later. And related to the section, "Terrorism and elections in 2007–2008" under "Second term (2002–2007)" section. I would like to see it similar to, "2002 election" under "First Term (2001-2002)" section. "Terrorism and elections in 2007–2008" should be renamed to "2007 election" with Further information: Gujarat legislative assembly election, 2007 present under the head. And similarly, there could be a section, "2012 election", if needed under "Third term (2002-2007)". Anupmehra -Let's talk! 21:12, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

@Puck: As Sitush says, and like I said in my edit summary (which you clearly did not bother to read) the Cato institute is a right-wing think tank. They make no pretense of being neutral; so why are you attempting to portray them as such? Find a real source. Vanamonde93 (talk) 00:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Zafri Case

Anyone know what came of the Zafri case? What is the status of the the SIT report being accepted by the supreme court?Fantumphool (talk) 21:14, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

The clean chit to Modi was opposed by Jakia Zafri in a lower court, the court ruled in favor of Modi accepting the SIT report. The latest news is that Jakia might go to High Court or Supreme Court. She has not yet done that.-sarvajna (talk) 03:33, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Her name is Zakia Jafri.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 20:22, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

You're quite right, thanks! Fantumphool (talk) 23:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

2002 Election

I'm not debating whether the content is reliably sourced. However, I don't think the sentence on his rhetoric seems relevant to the rest of the paragraph, unless the rhetoric can be argued to have contributed to the victory in the elections. Will leave as is for now.Fantumphool (talk) 21:35, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Resolved by moving this phraseFantumphool (talk) 22:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Recent Edits

Instead of getting in revert war, I'll outline the major changes that are being reverted for POV:

• "Indian National Congress led UPA"
  • no POV issue that I can see
• "a claim which is refuted by Modi and his supporters."
  • I have edited this sentence to make it seem less like an arguement, but if we say that some people are cricising him, then I see nothing wrong with saying that he has defended himself
• "He began work in the staff canteen of Gujarat State Road Transport Corporation, where he worked until he became a full–time pracharak (campaigner) of the RSS in 1970"
  • I see no POV issue in adding the year
• "In 1988, Modi was elected as General secretary of BJP's Gujarat unit"
  • Again, he was elected in 1988 and I don't see the POV problem with that
• "Gujarat’s agricultural and allied sector outshined other Indian states in the last decade by clocking an average annual growth of 11 per cent, compared to an all-India average of 3 per cent between 2001-02 and 2011-12."
  • Needs to be edited to be neutral, but these are the claims made by the government of Gujarat

I am again reverting, and will work on the text.

Revert, why

(EC)This is POV and the first source, here is not RS, is is a blatant propaganda site for the BJP. The inclusion of phrases such as "outshined", apart from the terrible grammar, is peacock. And this source has no mention of a "canteen job"? Darkness Shines (talk) 17:13, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

You have not addressed why you think the years or UPA are POV. I agree that the term "outshined" is an issue, and I think that we need to work on the wording. I am trying to improve the wording but you are reverting en bloc before I can do anything. Fantumphool (talk) 17:22, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I reverted because it was shite. And when reverted you really ought not restore contested content unless you get consensus. Darkness Shines (talk) 17:23, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The insertions about development and agriculture are very obviously poppycock, from very questionable sources. Moreover, the administration makes a claim about development; academics contradict this. The double negative of Modi's supporters saying this is not true, is somewhat redundant. If you want to separately add the sentence about Modi becoming a general secretary, I have no issues with that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:27, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Your description is your opinion. What exactly is your issue with INC leading the UPA? The source says he became a RSS prachak in 1970. What is your issue here? Please describe your problems with all of the points above if you are going to revert them all. If you have problems with individual edits, please revert them separately. Fantumphool (talk) 17:30, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I am re-adding the years and the UPA bits. Fantumphool (talk) 17:36, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I have no issues with the INC leading the UPA, except that you tried to link that to more questionable stuff. Likewise with his becoming a pracharak. Although perhaps the UPA bit is not necessary in the lead. As DS said, using the first website as a source is out of the question, it is a BJP site. The business line piece reads like a viewpoint piece, and a better source is needed for a claim as outrageous as the one it makes. Satisfied? Vanamonde93 (talk) 17:42, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

First, these are not edits that I put into the article. I am trying to incorporate them into the text to make the text better. I have little in the way of an opinion about Modi, and am only interested in him. So, this is not to just to satisfy me. Second, I will leave out the claims about Gujarat's growth and the refutation, but I don't see anything wrong with using the dates given by that article - do you? Fantumphool (talk) 17:49, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The source that you are disputing says that he became a RSS pracharak in 1970. One the previously cited articles says that, "he used to stay in his canteen ... till he was inducted as a full-time pracharak". I am re-adding the year. Fantumphool (talk) 17:49, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

M J Akbar

I'm a newcomer to wikipedia. I read in the newspaper today (23/3/2014) that the well known Muslim journalist, M J Akbar joined the BJP. I request someone to insert that news in this article with the appropriate citation. I'm scared to do it myself, because I have been reported to the Arbitration Coomiittee for Enforcement already. Thanks!—Khabboos (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

This oage is about Modi not about BJP. That any particular individual joins the BJP is not relevant to this article unless it has some specific significnce for Modi.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 21:43, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

New biography

I don;t have a big problem with including this info from a new biography if we can also explain how Modi has shifted his story. The one that he is selecting to emphasise now seems very different to the adamant stance that he used to take and I can't help but think it is geared to the forthcoming elections. It would be easier to include if he just said that, if he had his time again, he would have resigned but instead we're being fed information that was available to him at the time but he chose not to divulge even though it was not exactly in the category of state secret.

Perhaps I'm being too cynical here but I'm already fed up of the way that various political articles are being manipulated in the run-up to the elections. Sometimes, I wonder if it would be better to have a moratorium on substantive content changes in these periods and let them all fight their campaigns off-wiki, as indeed they should! - Sitush (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

From what I read, it seemed as though this interview had been compiled last year. To be honest, I don't really mind how it's phrased - it just seemed like new information to add to the article. --RaviC (talk) 23:03, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

why not think of a full protection upto running down of elections, the biography by the author is a claim not really affirmed by the living person. I dont think it can be wieghed in as a usefull information on a third party claim on some of saying ya he said that while the actuall person is still alive !, with political newspaper article really I could find biased on both sided articles, it is literally possible to build an entire article on using only one sided article! , I am really against adding any more info at this point of time (good or bad) Shrikanthv (talk) 07:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

All of these seems to be your personal views. This is a new information and should be added to the article. No one is stopping you from adding Modi's past "stories". ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ 08:01, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I am not seeing this as a reliable source, given the source used for the addition of the content also says, "The largely-adulatory book" Darkness Shines (talk) 09:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Ah, that doesn't look good, then. It rather confirms my suspicions that this is largely an electioneering effort. Vibhijain, we have a duty to be neutral, so "no one is stopping you from adding Modi's past stories" doesn't really do the job. If we were to add one "side" then we should add the other variants at the same time. - Sitush (talk) 09:34, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I havent' checked in this article, but in the BJP article (which is Modi's political party), there are many books cited with a negative bias against the BJP. If sources with a negative bias can be cited, then surely those with a more positive bias can also be cited? --Calypsomusic (talk) 10:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

It is spurious to say that this book is an election effort. The author is not affiliated with Modi in any way, and it's not unusual for new biographies to be published in election years--Calypsomusic (talk) 10:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC).

The idea is to prefer independent sources where possible. Furthermore, to work towards a neutral article and not one that reflects mostly "positive" or mostly "negative" sources. It is all about balance, relevance and reliability. I've no idea what the situation may be on the BJP article but, by following the spirit of WP:OSE, it is of no relevance to this article.

Modi has said many things and, in common with a lot of other politicians, they are not always consistent. Rather than rush to incorporate new stuff, during an election season we should instead be even more cautious than is usually our wont. This is a BLP of a very contentious person and caution should be our watchword. You are correct that it is not unusual for new biographies to appear at times such as this; it is also the case that many of them prove to be rushed, half-cocked jobs cashing in on the market and/or designed to promote the candidate. - Sitush (talk) 10:28, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I've just removed your addition of the book to "Further reading". As the link provided by Darkness Shines suggests, it is a rush job and so the chances of it being reliable/authoritative are not that great. There is currently a sockpuppet investigation concerning you and maybe it would be best to let that run its course before adding more information: we routinely revert sockpuppets, so continuing to add material would mean that you'd be wasting both your own time and ours if you are in fact socking. Obviously, if the investigation proves that you are in the clear then everyone will be happy and, since there is no deadline, you'd still have the opportunity to make whatever changes you want, wherever you want, and they will stay provided that you have consensus. - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Sitush, would you care to read WP:AGF? --Calypsomusic (talk) 11:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the reliability of this book can be questioned, but given its coverage on Indian media, we add it in this way - "According to a political biography written on Modi by British author and TV producer Andy Marino, Modi wanted to resign from his role as Chief Minister after the riots at the BJP's Panaji enclave, however party discipline prevented him from tendering his resignation." ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ 10:48, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Sigh. You've still not addressed the issue of neutrality/balance and I'm at a loss as to why we'd want to cite something that seemingly may not be reliable anyway. What has Modi said about the book? - Sitush (talk) 10:59, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I try my best to be neutral in my views. The coverage this book has got in Indian media can't be ignored. Many parts of this book have been actually said by Modi in a speech. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ 11:04, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I have very quickly scanned the article, and there are many sources which are biased against Modi and his party, the BJP. As an example, Amartya Sen is known to be critical of the BJP and its politicians: "is looked as one of their own by Marxists, and "describing himself as a fellow traveller of the Marxists, Professor Sen said that since his student days at Presidency College he had been adhering to Leftist thinking and “nothing has happened to make any reappraisal of that position”. " (The source is a blog, but the statements about Sen's political position seem reliable, and are well known.) --Calypsomusic (talk) 11:22, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I think if we allow such additions, please try to add all the following things here in the article ! Please note that wiki is not a news

things for addition 0.1 1 2 3 4 Shrikanthv (talk) 12:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Jaffrelot Christof's report

So far it discusses nothing more than the simple fact that Gujarat ranks 10th out of 21 states in human development. I have not removed any content, just pushed it to right place. In whole document of Christof, it doesn't support the given statement "criticised for failing to make a significant positive impact upon the human development of the state"... Gujarat developmenet was 0.467 according to the report, in 2001, but according to 2012' figure, it was almost 0.700. It is not even criticism. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:30, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Report (of christof) says "First the re-delimitation of the constituencies had increased the number of urban seats, in a state where the proportion of rural dwellers was declining anyway. Second, Modi’s policy, over the last 10 years, has benefited urban middle class more than anybody else. Gujarat ranks only tenth out of 21 states in terms of Human Development Index because some groups of rural Gujarat continue to lag behind ( India, Human Development Report 2011:Towards Social Inclusion, 2011, p. 24). "

I think it has been misinterpreted in both lead and "Debate on Gujarat's development under Modi", where someone has wrote "Gujarat ranks 21st among the 28 Indian states in the Human Development Index,". It should be edited, and removed from lead. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:47, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I do see a point as i went through the compelete report no where did I see that it mentions about human develpment index or criteria, its a falisfied claim , let us wait for some other to comment, as I have stated the same before also Shrikanthv (talk) 05:07, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I am unclear what is meant by "report" here, but there was a remarkably long-winded debate about this when I first inserted this source, an admin looked into it, and verified it. You should be able to find the discussion in the archives, I have neither the time nor the inclination to do that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

hi Vanamonde93 , Report is here . this is the source which is referenced to the statment saying of low human development Index , which is completely false claim as i went through the referenced report , it does not say any such thing ! , may be the source content have changed with time ? , please also note that the concerned thing here is a BLP claim , and can effect a living person negatively Shrikanthv (talk) 06:03, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

What are you talking about? It says fairly explicitly that "development" was aimed at Urban dwellers, at the expense of the health, education and economic development of rural areas. These last are the three components of Human development as the term is usually used (including J himself). Also, please look up the archived discussion about this, it is exhausting to repeat arguments every few months. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:13, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

went through archives, you were right removing this stuff may lead to NPOV and make the article unbalanced. (with all the stuff available in the net now! like har har modi!!) I guess i will not support the claim for removal now , but still feel interpreting human development, vaguely attaching it components of human development without any measure or number is little bit hard to digest for me Shrikanthv (talk) 07:01, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Vanamonde93, I can understand what he is talking about. It is definitive that the given document is not even 'criticism'. It is a neutral report, both sides have to be mentioned, but inside the subsection. And I am not sure which admin you are referring to. If you are referring to 'reviewer', then make sure, that reviewers are no stamp, at least when you have provided no link to the report and asked about the "report" yourself. Even if modi was dead, it is wrong to insert such misleading, however it is BLP. D4iNa4 (talk) 07:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

At BLP noticeboard Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Narendra_Modi. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:11, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Thread closed or archived, so what we are going to do? D4iNa4 (talk) 17:59, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard

This article is currently under discussion here. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Wife

There has been an addition of a name who is the so called Narendra Modi's wife here is the link. However Modi himself has never claimed that she is his wife. So the addition of Jashodaben would be unsourced. As this is a high profile article, because he is one of the prime minister candidate for 2014 general election, this might become a BLP issue and I think any such controversial unreferenced edits should be discussed. Shriram 08:21, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a clear BLP issue. It is just an allegation by his fierce political opponent Digvijay Singh, with no substance whatsoever. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ 09:06, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

- I hope everything is clear now , that all this was true !. Rahultalreja11 — Preceding undated comment added 06:14, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Debate on Gujarat's development under Modi

I am adding a image to this section- "Debate on Gujarat's development under Modi" but image is removed again and again.

It is clearly mentioned Economics Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen said......, Gujarat's "record in education and healthcare is pretty bad"

I am 'only' adding a picture to it which i have recently clicked on 25th march 2014.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahultalreja11 (talk • contribs) 10:17, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Please take this picture to Hospitals in Gujarath not here its about a person Shrikanthv (talk) 10:28, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Jagdish Bhagwati and Arvind Panagariya have praised Modi for his economic policies. Also how can you say that the image was taken in Gujarat? Shriram 10:37, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Some may people has praised modi then it doesnt means that we wont highlight the negative aspects of Gujarat.secondly you have requested for deletion of media from wikipedia. you may hold right to remove that from this page but you are no one to remove that from wikipedia.Please mind your actions and take in neutrally not in favour of any particular person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rahultalreja11 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Now learn to be polite with wikipedians. I don't hold any rights. Shriram 12:10, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Important Development Facts are missing

Gujarat is the only state in the country to have a private railroad dedicated to freight. The Kutch Railway Corporation was incorporated on 22nd January 2004 under the Companies Act with equity contributions from RVNL, Kandla Port Trust, Mundra Port & SEZ Ltd. and the Govt. of Gujarat. The railroad is capable of operating double decker freight containers like in the West. Commercial operations started in July 2006 during Modi's second term. The Palanpur to Gandhidham railway line carries 30-40 freight trains a day each with a capacity of 180 containers each. Reference: http://www.kutchrail.org/index.html

Gujarat is also the first state in the country to develop private ports. The state's port policy was announced in 1995 but several ports have come into operation during Modi's tenure including the Gujarat Chemical port & LNG terminals at Dahej, the LNG terminal at Hazira and the solid cargo terminal at Dahej. Reference: http://www.gidb.org/cms.aspx?content_id=100

Rural electricity connectivity of 98.53% is the best in India. The World Bank has applauded the state's highway sector to have created an "enabling framework" for "efficient governance". Gujarat also enjoys the distinction of having the largest IP-based e-governance system in the Asia Pacific called the GSWAN (Gujarat State Wide Area Network), and boasts of India's highest teledensity, highest number of operational ISPs, the longest optical fibre cable network and the country's first four-lane highway. Its network of airports — 16, including one international — is one of the largest in the country while its coastline of over 1,600 km, the longest in India, is dotted with 41 ports.

Reference: http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/highways-uninterrupted-power-help-gujara

Survey results about PM choice and seats

It is very interesting to observe that anti-BJP mongers strive hard to include any myriad criticism about Modi from any media/ personality/ magazines etc. Even Left biased intellectuals/economists are given prominent space in the article. But when it comes to surveys, despite every news channel, magazine,news portal, every newspaper is publishing surveys that depict Narendra Modi as top choice of PM by Indians. Still the mongers want to turn blind eye to it reverting when an updation regarding surveys been made. A user Vanamonde93 says while reverting "As you would say, that's why reverting". It seriously raises questions about the bias depicted in the article when such people makes edit and control the article. , ,, ..

Go Through wiki:notnews , there would be millions of survey by millions to add in every article and especially during election process, so will not support such additions Shrikanthv (talk) 06:38, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

@IP; As I have explained before, if you wish to add a sentence saying "every survey has found.." then you need a source saying that. It is not enough to merely provide a lot of surveys. Also, please sign your comments next time. Vanamonde93 (talk) 15:37, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

As per Vanamonde93, the current phrasing of the polls section is ok, and outlines the point - polls are showing support in favour of Modi. You will need some kind of source to prove that all of the polls are in Modi's favour though. There may be one or two which don't fit the general trend. Perhaps it would be a good idea to mention one updated poll as well, as these do show the seat prediction rising above 220. --RaviC (talk) 16:33, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• It's very peculiar of user Shrikanthv to talk of wiki:notnews. The section itself is about polls and mentions about pre-poll surveys. But when] (which is a hoax even accepted by the newspaper itself was included), does he has anything to comment? Now anyone who reads newspapers, Rajkamalrao (talk) 16:57, 15 April 2014 (UTC)magazines,news portals, watches news channels, would know that what all surveys indicate. I had put link of just few surveys out of so many that took place. It is difficult to adjust each one of them, but while going through the article, when it says " In three opinion polls.....", it reflects as the section has not been updated since ages. However if so desired as to have proof of what all surveys indicated, here they are. ] " Mr Modi, who is ahead in all the pre-election surveys......", ], " All surveys unanimously declare Modi as people’s choice.....", ], "Final India opinion polls boost Narendra Modi’s campaign...". So while I am quite sure that you guys may stall the updation under some new pretext, but still the sources say all. 210.212.144.133 (talk) 09:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi , such additions now will result in wiki:NPOV, there are survey's which are available which counter your claim, will wait for other users to comment. do not edit until a necessary concensus is reached here Shrikanthv (talk) 11:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Come on user. Cite any survey by reputed/ reliable media which says otherwise. How come NPOV comes in picture? It is really surprising to see that information about surveys have not been updated since May 2013, as the section of the article says " In three opinion polls.....in May 2013.....". When some links have been introduced about what all surveys say, you are adopting sinister acts to NOT update the surveys result. Do you really consider yourself as editor of Misplaced Pages or UPA's menacing agenda.117.201.231.249 (talk) 17:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Jasodhaben

Jashodhaben am on a handheld device! didn't check whether already updated. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:01, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Since , as the article says, Mr. Modi's to hi s wife is non consummated and even remained unclaimed by him until 2013, his wife, Miss Jashodaben, must not be referred to as Modi. Instead, by her name- Jashodaben Chimnalal. Thankyou 14.139.229.34 (talk) 14:31, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Note, in Gujurati females have "ben" as a title, that is not the given name. (as males have "bhai"). In Gujurat the convention is thus that her real name is Jashoda'Lihaas (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

BLP Noticeboard

Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Narendra_Modi_again

Same issue. D4iNa4 (talk) 15:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

For now it has been tagged, but I don't think that would be enough. D4iNa4 (talk) 14:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Jashodaben, Mistranslation of speech in HP

As the subject has acknowledged he is married but separated (not divorced), in the personal infobox, the year of marriage and separation may be added. And source needs to be a secondary source and not the nomination form in Gujarati.

A sentence reads "However, in February 2014, in Himachal Pradesh, Narendra Modi had said that his single status makes him the best person to fight corruption.""Source 1"."Source 2". The heading by both news sources is a mistranslation. The quote in Hindi (in the body) is "Mere liye na koi aagey, na peechhey. Kiske liye bhrashtachaar karunga?" The idiom "Aagey peeche koi na hona" (आगे पीछे कोई न होना) in Hindi means "to not have any relatives or close relations", a source is . Accurate translation is "I have no close relation", which is true as the subject is separated from his spouse and family for 45 years or so. The translation as "single" in the articles is incorrect. The sentence in the article begins with "However", creating an impression that Modi's statement was a lie. Assuming good faith, I can say probably the editor relied on the mistranslation by Times of India and NDTV of the Hindi idiom, but it may please be changed to read "In February 2014, in Himachal Pradesh, Narendra Modi had said that he has no close relations, ..."

Election result prediction

I have removed that part from the article. That section was poor advertisement. Plus, some of those news media are "sold/biased" too. --Tito☸Dutta 16:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Its not predicting the result it says instead that "opinion polls conducted by news agencies and magazines in May 2013, Narendra Modi was declared the most popular choice for Prime Minister" (emphasis added). That is not saying he will become, it is saying the polls indicated those who partook want to seem hima s PMLihaas (talk) 13:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL, WP:NOTNEWS, trivia. You and I have had this discussion before, I think in relation to Aam Aadmi Party or some such. - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Name translation

In accordance with precedence across WP, the persons name is listed in their native script.Lihaas (talk) 13:26, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

@Lihaas:, why is it that every time I see your name at an article where I have previously edited, you demonstrate big dollops of cluelessness and seem always to end up being reverted? You are not a new contributor and, bearing in mind that you are familiar with India-related topics, I find it astonishing that you demonstrate a lack of awareness of WP:INDICSCRIPT. Please can you acknowledge that you have now read that guidance, which I am sure has been pointed out to you before. - Sitush (talk) 10:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Recent Reverts

I just reverted multiple edits for the following reasons;

1) The citation at the end of the lead explicitly states who is doing the criticizing;

2) The statement "he has been cleared of any wrongdoing" is a blatant NPOV violation, because no court has done any such thing. He has been cleared in specific cases, such as the one where Jafri was murdered.

3) Finally, as per WP:INDICSCRIPT, Modi's name should not be in Gujarati; that is stated explicitly. I have not touched that for now, because that would be a second revert on my part, but Lihaas is refusing to abide by the indic script policy despite my having pointed said policy out to them. Vanamonde93 (talk) 03:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

But still, it has been proven that the source is being misused. Jaffrelot no where 'criticized' Modi's administration. It is blatant violation of BLP. And he has been proven by court to be innocent. I think you are getting yourself into conflict of interest, see WP:COI. D4iNa4 (talk) 05:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It has not been proved in any way; point me to the discussion where any such consensus was reached. Did I not ask you to read the TP archives once already? Also, why on earth are you edit warring on the tag? The same language has been used throughout the lead: "His administration has been praised for..." etc. Why are you taking issue with it the third time it is used? Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks like there's still no discussion on the subject. I don't see any consensus that the report had any criticism. I don't have to always look at TP archives that you are misrepresenting. No where its being discussed that the report were 'criticism'. You didn't even showed up on BLP noticeboard. And be more practical with the edits you are reverting. He has been proven, that Supreme Court has not found any evidence against Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi.. D4iNa4 (talk) 05:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

There is no discussion, because it was discussed. You're edit-warring at this point. Yes, consensus is required to add content; and consensus was obtained. Once that is done, there is no need to justify content to every tom dick and harry who shows up on the page. Moreover, you have no consensus for adding the extra unsourced sentence. DS, what have you to say about this? And Sitush? I cannot revert, because I would be hitting 3RR, and I have no intention of being blocked. Vanamonde93 (talk) 05:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I still cannot see any discussion whether this report had any 'criticism' or not. Clearly it had none. In fact you never had access to this report. Still you have misinterpreted it. May I know why? If Lihaas tagged 'by who', it is your liability to explain. D4iNa4 (talk) 05:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The discussion is here. It got filed under a different heading, for whatever reason. Read past the first few paragraphs. As you can see there, I did have access to the report. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:03, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks like it got split while archiving; the rest of it, with the conclusion, is here. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Now you have access because I had provided the link, so did other user(User:Shrikanthv). Yet you are still pushing your POV that it is criticism. Can you find me even a single secondary source that claims Jaffrelot's opinion to be criticism? As usual, you don't seem to be understanding what has been written. You are not understanding or willing to admit that the archive has to do nothing with this BLP violation. That discussion was only about whether Jaffrelot's opinion should be added or not. For the subsection. So stop using it as a scapegoat. We all know that it is being misused, just like on subsection, you/or someone had added that Gujarat ranks 21/28 in Indian states. Although report said 10/21. We need WP:RS not your misinterpretation of archives. Because they don't support your opinion either. D4iNa4 (talk) 06:17, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What the bloody hell are you talking about? The entire section IS ABOUT THE LEAD. Can you not read what's written? I HAD access then; on what basis are you saying I do not? Jaffrelot IS A SECONDARY SOURCE. What part of that do you not understand? This is the last sentence presented there: "The Gujarat chap- ter of the India Human Development Report 2011 concluded ‘the high growth rate achieved by the state over the years has not percolated to the marginalized sections of society, particularly STs and SCs, to help improve their human development outcomes" EXACTLY what the sentence you are disputing is saying. Vanamonde93 (talk) 06:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You've asked above "what you mean by report", probably because you were unaware about it. If there was access to report, why link was tagged as "subscription required", you are contradicting yourself. So you admit that you are the only one pushing that Jaffrelot's report is critical. However, his whole report has got no criticism, why? Let me know that. Jaffrelot's report seems to be neutral like it was discussed on BLP noticeboard. It is almost similar to other reports that has been attributed to be positive. He points out the positivity of Gujarat's growth, he adds that middle class families have highly benefited, so on..Whatever you have written just now, it only supports the subsection, it is not supporting any thing that has been written on lead. D4iNa4 (talk) 06:41, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes it does, and you are getting tendentious on this matter, drop it. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Let me know where it does? Just saying that it does makes no sense, you are only violating WP:BLP by misusing the source. And I am not getting why you are ignoring my suggestions as well as of Lihaas, and Shrikanthv but pushing the POV of Vanamonde93. Care to explain? Also tell why you have removed the Gujarati translation and the line that the court found no guilty. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Read WP:INDICSCRIPT, as was explained already, I explained on my talk page, and it has been explained to you here, countless times that there is criticism in Christophe`s paper, you just keep choosing to ignore that, and next time you mention my name at ANI, kindly inform me. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Sure I will, I didn't knew that people have to be informed. Anyways, there's still no explanation that how his report is a criticism, because it doesn't seem to be, and even more it hasn't been interpreted as criticism by any other source other than this page. It is important to mention about the Court' ruling. D4iNa4 (talk) 09:33, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Have you not read page 84? It is a blistering critique of the administration. Darkness Shines (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

In page 83, he writes that "Generally speaking, the BJP manifesto was more oriented towards the urban dwellers than before". In Page 84, he writes that "Modi’s policy, over the last 10 years, has benefited urban middle class more than anybody else. Gujarat ranks only tenth out of 21 states in terms of Human Development Index because some groups of rural Gujarat continue to lag behind (India, Human Development Report 2011: Towards Social Inclusion, 2011, p. 24)." But then he writes that "Indeed, Gujarat is a case of social polarization with new rich in the cities and most of the groups which are at the receiving end concentrated in the villages." - None of it sounds to be criticism. If you would read whole report, it sounds neutral. D4iNa4 (talk) 10:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

And there are the paper by Maitreesh Ghatak and Sanchari Royand here, so it is high time you dropped this. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

There are mostly positive views about his administration., So if you are weighing up the negative comments, you should also weigh up the positive comments. So it is much better to add something like "Considering the human development of state, his administration has received mixed views." Even your own source says "Several economists have written praising Gujarat’s growth performance under Modi, such as Debroy (2012) and Panagariya (2014)." So why there is a need to ignore those positive views? D4iNa4 (talk) 10:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

D4iNa4, I'm not seeing anything new in what you are saying, although I'm also still trying to catch up with where you want it to be said. As others have pointed out, all of this has been discussed extensively in the recent past and nothing generally seems to have changed: he is and will likely remain a polarising figure in a very corrupt democracy. Dealing with situation where the subject is known to be economical with the truth, pursues a populist agenda in a semi-literate, corrupt and factionalised country and attracts criticism from the intelligentsia is always going to be fraught with difficulties. We are duty-bound to attempt an explanation of why this man's name so frequently appears together with words such as "controversial". The situation is not helped when contributors with a clear pro- and anti-Modi POV keep bringing up the same issues. - Sitush (talk) 11:05, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

But it seems pretty unnatural here, I am not rejecting the critical view, especially those by Maitreesh Ghatak and Sanchari Roy. As per WP:NPOV, why we are not highlighting the positive views about his administration then? When it comes to human development. That would be the best solution, that is why rfc below has been opened. D4iNa4 (talk) 11:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"He has been praised for his economic policies, which are credited with creating an environment for a high rate of economic growth in Gujarat" That is directly before the sentence you are disputing, how do you think the article does not highlight positive reviews? Darkness Shines (talk) 11:25, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Economic growth and human development are two different things. i.e. China has probably 2nd largest economy in the world, but its human development is at 101/187(See HDI). D4iNa4 (talk) 11:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment

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does the following statement needs to be reworded in the lead section " his administration has also been criticized for failing to make a significant positive impact upon the human development of the state " to "Views about the human development under his administration remains mixed." as per D4iNa4Shrikanthv (talk) 10:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• No Per the section above. Darkness Shines (talk) 10:57, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
• Comment This is a worthless RfC. Asking whether something needs to be changed without proposing a change doesn't actually resolve anything. - Sitush (talk) 11:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support Discussed above. It should be reworded, because it is only focusing upon criticism, it is ignoring the praise about his administration. Either it should be "Views about the human development under his administration remains mixed." or that whole line should be removed. Described in subsection which is already neutral but lead isn't. Sitush is right about proposal.D4iNa4 (talk) 11:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Eh? You are supporting the proposal but agreeing with me that it is worthless? - Sitush (talk) 11:58, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed about the proposal, that something has to be proposed. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• No as per above. And I agree with Sitush that this is a pointless RFC, because you are not proposing any change. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose

• Balance doesn't have to be in the same sentence. The previous sentence says some positive things, this sentence says some negative things. That's fine IMO.
• The replacement is so anodyne as to be almost meaningless. If all that we can say is that some people have some views on the topic then is it worth us saying anything at all?
• Also grammar-wise I'd prefer 'human development' to 'the human development'.
• I don't understand the comment above that no change is proposed. Has the RfC text changed during the process?

Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2014 (UTC), just here for the RfC.

• Yes and argh! The RfC text was changed here. - Sitush (talk) 17:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Balaenoptera musculus You can check again. It has been proposed now. D4iNa4 (talk) 18:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

:'''Reword'''

Support- It should be reworded per RfC, because his administration has achieved both type of views for the given subject. Noteswork (talk) 12:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Support - as a nominator i support this, eventhough we are trying to be neutral here , it gives out a confusing signal in meaning of the passage, as we praise his achievements like development etc suddenly we have words like low human development... either reword the whole para on such claims (to be mixed completely as there are claims and counter claims in thousands .. ) or reword this specific sentence.Shrikanthv (talk) 13:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Delete Statement - The term "human development" is vague to the point of being meaningless. Per Misplaced Pages:Lead_section - "the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style". NickCT (talk) 14:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose, uninfomative replacement. It is sufficiently balanced as is.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 17:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

No, it is not. It doesn't speak about the praise concerning the human development. D4iNa4 (talk) 20:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Comment: @ all of you complaining about the use of "human development," it is a very well known and frequently used term in academia. It is a composite of health, education and income indices. It is used because saying "health, education and income" is too wordy. HDI is the best known measure, but others exist. Jaffrelot uses the term, and in precisely this way. Vanamonde93 (talk) 22:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93 - Oh great! It's an academic term. You're so clever. So I guess since Misplaced Pages is for the everyday reader and should not include jargon or academic terms where possible you'd agree the term is bad, right? NickCT (talk) 00:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I would not, because I said it was "commonly used in academia" as a means of proving it is a specific meaningful term. It is not an academic term, because it is also used in the popular press, just not as frequently. Vanamonde93 (talk) 01:35, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93 - re "also used in the popular press, just not as frequently" - Very infrequently. It's use on WP should probably be very infrequent as well. I'd understand if you wanted to use this term in an article relating to economics or something, but using it in relation to a politicians BLP is awkward.

Regardless, I think we can both agree that I'm arguing for the more concise verbiage. If you really want to incorporate "human development" you should probably have a good rationale for why it's needed. Frankly I don't think either of the proposed sentences add anything to the article. The "Views about the human development .... remains mixed." could almost certainly be applied to virtually any politician. Doesn't add much real information. NickCT (talk) 15:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Neither the most prominent reliable sources on the extent to which Modi exceeded or did not exceed the expectations of the governed and the achievements of peers should be summarized with salient measures and facts, not sweeping generalities. EllenCT (talk) 00:09, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Taken in context with the proceeding sentence I don't see any BLP and neutrality issues and it seems to summarise the body adequately. I have no issue with using human development in the lead as I feel the concept is well enough known. A link to Human development (humanity) may help (although that article is not in the best shape). AIRcorn (talk) 07:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Why should it be removed? It adheres to NPOV. The criticisms are from reliable sources. Harsh (talk) 15:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Like explained before, it is not NPOV because it is focusing upon negative view only. Not the positive view about the human development under his administration. D4iNa4 (talk) 19:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose It took many weeks to obtain consensus for the lead in more or less its current form. The guy is controversial and balancing it is a tricky act, but this did it and still does it. It is poor - too short, for example - but sufficient given the awkwardness of the subject matter. We really need to find an uninvolved someone from WP:GOCE or similar who might be willing to draft something but what we're seeing at the moment is people attempting to sanitise the lead during a high-profile election campaign, just as someone was going the other way by introducing the emotive "pogrom" word. Far better to wait until the campaign is over - it is not as if there is any particular BLP violation in the thing. As for EllenCT's position, well, they seem not to have much understanding of the topic and the heat it generates. Agreement on what constitute the "most prominent" reliable sources is not very likely - I'd suggest a read of the archives, which should keep them busy until the elections are over in five weeks' time. - Sitush (talk) 18:03, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Delete I have to agree, the rhetoric "human development" is meaningless, it is political rhetoric that has no meaning. Remove the preamble entirely. Damotclese (talk) 16:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
• Delete per Nick and Damotclese. The lead should be clear, short and to the point and not the place for pov-pushing. The information can be put into the main article. --Calypsomusic (talk) 16:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

University

This says Gujarat University and this says Delhi. We cite both, in different places. I'm inclined always to prefer The Hindu over The Toiletpaper (and, frankly, would rather we treated the latter as unreliable for pretty much everything) but are there any official sources that might clarify the issue? - Sitush (talk) 13:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

changed pracharak english translation to (full-time promoter/worker) from (propagandist)

I think the literal translation is not accurate here. I see the hindi term translated in a more appropriate way on Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and Mohan Bhagwat page. Of course both usage can be cited from reliable sources. In my opinion full-time worker is more accurate. Jyoti (talk) 02:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Read the source that we cite for the point. That says propagandist, and since you say both translations could apply there is no reason not to use the one that the source uses. - Sitush (talk) 07:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Fine, your choice over mine. :-) Jyoti (talk) 08:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Replaced 'estranged' with 'parted ways' as in the infobox.

Changed: and were soon estranged because Modi decided to pursue an itinerant life. To: and soon parted ways because Modi decided to pursue an itinerant life. Typical synonyms of 'estranged' are alienate, antagonize, disaffect, make hostile/unfriendly, destroy the affections of, turn away, drive away. Which, imho, is not reported in this case. I think it goes against WP:PUBLICFIGURE, WP:BLPPRIMARY. Jyoti (talk) 06:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

If they are not divorced then they are estranged, what has BLPPRIMARY got to do with it? Darkness Shines (talk) 07:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

No, "estranged" is commonly used here. If anything, "parted ways" understates the issue because his wife makes it clear that he was the one in control of the decision and she just did his bidding. Try , , , , , , and for starters. It shouldn't surprise you to know that I'm pretty au fait (sic) with English language usage and abusage. - Sitush (talk) 07:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

If you think 'estranged' is the common correct usage in this context -- okay. My doubt was because I considered it to convey: alienate, antagonize, disaffect, make hostile/unfriendly, destroy the affections of, turn away, drive away. In that context I wanted to point out WP:BLPPRIMARY to not use that word. But if that is the correct usage I admit that it has no relevance. I see that you have updated the infobox also accordingly. Thank you. Jyoti (talk) 08:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

In his nomination form for the Vadodara Lok Sabha seat in Indian general election, 2014 Modi entered the name of Jashodaben as his wife.

Changed: Modi acknowledged Jashodaben as his legal spouse in the campaign for the 2014 Loksabha elections To In his nomination form for the Vadodara Lok Sabha seat in 2014 Loksabha elections Modi entered the name of Jashodaben as his wife. He has _not_ done it in a 'campaign' -- he filled his nomination paper! That is what the source also says. I think WP:STICKTOSOURCE applies here. Jyoti (talk) 06:46, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems specious to me. - Sitush (talk) 07:44, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Darkness Shines has put it in back himself. My point was He has _not_ done it in a 'campaign' -- he filled his nomination paper! That is what the source also says .Thank you. Jyoti (talk) 08:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Modi used to leave the space marked for spouse blank in his earlier affidavits.

Changed Having effectively denied the marriage in four previous election campaigns To Modi used to leave the space marked for spouse blank in his earlier affidavits. Added another citation too from The Economic Times. "denied" is not accurate. Not present in sources. I have reworded considering WP:BLPSTYLE WP:WELLKNOWN. There is another article from The Hindu "Avoid personal issues: BJP". He was entitled to leaving it blank and he exercised his choice. No one has challenged his 'choice' in any court of law. He never said he is bachelor. "effectively" denied the marriage in a BLP should be avoided. Jyoti (talk) 06:52, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Wrong, "He previously claimed to be unattached and without family ties" "Mr. Modi and the B.J.P. took pains to keep the marriage quiet for many years, even when reporters managed to interview his wife, a village schoolteacher", sounds a lot like denial to me. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Agree with DS. There are plenty of other examples out there. We might just be able to change it to "implicitly" but it is obvious from the sources that he denied his legally-recognised marriage in prior elections and indeed the INC challenged this from 2001, although not in court. The source does say it was in previous elections. All of your recent work on that paragraph needs to be reverted. - Sitush (talk) 07:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

"INC challenged this from 2001, although not in court" -- It was his legal right to fill that section or not INC is incapable of going to court! And not speaking about his wife in election campaign is also his choice which everyone should respect. Can we get a quote where he says "I-am-not-married" from a reliable secondary source? No, right? My concern is in the manner in which this section is worded in a BLP. "Having remained, and having said, ..." suggests that he lied which is not the case -- at no point in campaign he has talked about his spouse! This can very easily be three smaller sentences, closer to source than being a long sentence (presently) that subtly sends a wrong message. Modi used to leave the space marked for spouse blank in his earlier affidavits. He claimed that his status as a single person meant that he had no reason to be corrupt. In his nomination form for the Vadodara Lok Sabha seat in 2014 Loksabha elections Modi entered the name of Jashodaben as his wife. I don't even want to get into the poor translation of his hindi speech the way it is done here! Jyoti (talk) 09:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

A lie of omission is still a lie, how do you think it ought to be phrased? Darkness Shines (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

He exercised his legal choice -- can you dispute that he violated any law? You are not to judge him on a Misplaced Pages article and blame him of a 'lie'! I think I have made my viewpoint clear -- Have I not already made the edits which you have reverted and have I not put it in italics yet again here? Jyoti (talk) 10:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

What has the law got to do with it? He lied by omission, do you deny that? Or as the source say "Mr. Modi and the B.J.P. took pains to keep the marriage quiet for many years, even when reporters managed to interview his wife, a village schoolteacher". I am not seeing how what you have in italics above is an improvement over what is there now. I did a few changes, what is wrong with those? Darkness Shines (talk) 10:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

An omission is an omission. You cannot label it as 'lie'. He exercised his legal choice -- can you dispute that he violated any law by his choice of omission or made a lie? I didn't say I have problem with the further edits you did after reverting -- skip that. BLP has to be more than based on recent news headlines -- I had also given an inline source from The Economic Times and mentioned another from The Hidu. I say, no it is not a 'lie'. Someone's private life and individual choices are to be respected. The citation also do not use 'lie' at any point. This was for addressing your viewpoint that it is a lie. The article does not use that word. My viewpoint remains same, quoting myself from above:

My concern is in the manner in which this section is worded in a BLP. "Having remained, and having said, ..." suggests that he lied which is not the case -- at no point in campaign he has talked about his spouse! This can very easily be three smaller sentences, closer to source than being a long sentence (presently) that subtly sends a wrong message. Modi used to leave the space marked for spouse blank in his earlier affidavits. He claimed that his status as a single person meant that he had no reason to be corrupt. In his nomination form for the Vadodara Lok Sabha seat in 2014 Loksabha elections Modi entered the name of Jashodaben as his wife. I don't even want to get into the poor translation of his hindi speech the way it is done here! Jyoti (talk) 10:49, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Election candidates have to file sworn affidavits (nomination papers etc) at each election in India. Those affidavits include a question regarding marriage status. By leaving that blank, it seems to me that he lied by omission. That is what the sources seem to be saying. - Sitush (talk) 11:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you may "assume" that -- I say it is not. He had a choice -- he is not obliged to disclose it if he so chooses to. We are not authorized to question his private life. Jyoti (talk) 12:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Of course he is obliged to show it if it is an affidavit. That's why the BJP are scrambling around at the moment to avert a PR disaster; that's why umpteen sources refer to the omission as a lie. - Sitush (talk) 12:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

No User talk:Sitush he had a choice to leave it blank and he chose to leave it blank -- he was not under any legal obligation to fill in this field. Recently it was made a mandatory field and this time he had no choice and he was under legal obligation to fill it and he filled it. I think we agree on this point? Jyoti (talk) 12:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It has only recently become mandatory? That is news to me. The affidavits have been sworn many decades. - Sitush (talk) 12:44, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Sitush that is the case. There was a recent Supreme Court ruling regarding this. I am not able to find the exact ruling but it is mentioned in these two news articles: previously it was not mandatory for candidates to disclose spouses name or details and he had to mention the name of his wife this time in view of the Supreme Court order. He has never discussed his spouse in election speeches by choice. Jyoti (talk) 13:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Although I note that the BJP are trying to say otherwise. This sounds like a Clinton-Lewinsky situation. How did we treat that? - Sitush (talk) 11:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I have not read that link. Staying on the current topic -- current topic is absolutely no where similar to Clinton-Lewinsky by any standard. Jyoti (talk) 12:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

And is it worth mentioning the speculation for his rationale, ie RSS liking for celibacy. I'm wary about speculation. - Sitush (talk) 11:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I have not read that link. Staying on the current topic -- I am not talking about RSS and their linking for celibacy by any length of imagination! We have to stop at some point, of course it can be extended and discussed at great length -- not on Misplaced Pages! I am not arguing in that direction. In this reply I am only opposing your view of terming it a 'lie'. Jyoti (talk) 12:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I was perhaps not clear enough. The Clinton-Lewinsky situation I was referring to was with regard to the definition of "sexual relations". As far as I can recall, Clinton claimed that he did not have sex with Lewinsky, based on a definition that simply boggled the minds of most observers. Similarly, the BJP seem to be saying that he was not lying by omitting the information even though an affidavit has to be truthful. - Sitush (talk) 12:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I wish to refrain from extending this discussion towards comparison with Clinton-Lewinsky situation. I made a response to your earlier point above. Thank you. Jyoti (talk) 12:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

"Modi lied about his marital status" Darkness Shines (talk) 11:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

That is not secondary source. It is another allegation in a news article. I will refrain from counting it as a judgement/verdict. Jyoti (talk) 12:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Since when has a newspaper not been a secondary source? There are loads of them saying the same sort of thing. - Sitush (talk) 12:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say newspaper articles cannot be secondary source. Would you count it as a judgement/verdict? I think we are deviating from the topic. Let us not discuss about it is lie or not, I can continue to keep my line of thought and you can keep your arguments. Since it cannot be asserted unambiguously about this living person that he lied on this account I would have preferred to keep the description in this Misplaced Pages article also void of such derivation -- sensitive towards two living person's personal lives. I am in no way motivated to convince you or anyone to the 'truthfulness' or 'lie' of his deliberate choice -- but I am sure it has not been termed 'lie' by any competent authority or there is any case under-trial. Lying in nomination paper is a serious punishable offence. Jyoti (talk) 12:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Floating an idea: what if we say that the BJP have denied that he was lying, as per the NDTV link I gave earlier? That seems to balance things out, although I wasn't aware of it when I rewrote that mess of a paragraph. - Sitush (talk) 12:46, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is also fair enough, that balances it out in my opinion. BLP has to be extra careful and give benefit of doubt to the privacy of the person. Please also reconsider breaking into three sentences (in which case -- without having to add the counter of BJP from NDTV report you have mentioned) not linked by 'however' so that this subject does not get undue weight either. Thank you. Jyoti (talk) 13:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

So, do we have a consensus on adding another line from NDTV article or breaking into three simple sentences? Meanwhile someone has added more to it! It will appear like his early life == his marriage controversy. lol! Jyoti (talk) 03:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

One more thing, the para says He was engaged at the age of 13 to Jashodaben Chimanlal and the couple were married by the time he was 18 (emphasis mine). The source used says that they were married when she turned 17. I don't see anything mentioned about Modi's age when the marriage was formalised. Also the source used to support the statement Having remained silent on the question of marriage in four previous election campaigns says no such thing.Also Sitush, just like Jyoti said above it was not mandatory to fill all the columns. Even Manmohan Singh had left the column of his wife's name blank during one of his nominations (I have the copy of Nomination, it is a primary source and useless here)-sarvajna (talk) 15:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Sarvajna, the source for the "18" statement is in fact the Caravan article here, which indicates that he went off on his travels at 18. Someone has since edited the paragraph and ballsed it up. As happens so often with people here who do not read the cited sources etc before jumping in to amend a statement. On this occasion, that is you. The solution is to move the Financial Express citation to the end of the sentence that you modified.

Similarly, the "last four" tihng is sourced, just not particularly well-placed. It is in the citation immediately following the next sentence, ie this. I was going to do some more work on that but then Jyoti began suggesting more significant changes. That said, this is another instance of people not reading the damn sources: if you had then you could easily have fixed the placement yourself.

As for the issue of lying, the NDTV route is the way to go. Something like "Accusations that Modi's previous omission amounted to lying have been rejected by his party." No doubt, now that the big boys are back, we'll end up debating the precise wording until around about the time the election ends ;) It pisses me off that every time I come here to fix obvious big problems, certain other people turn up, say nothing about the big problems that were there but begin instead to quibble about stuff that often is of their own making. - Sitush (talk) 17:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Regarding this edit relating to pogrom

I'm a tad confused by User:Jyoti.mickey's edit here. He seems to be making the wording vague, rather than actually changing the content. I don't really care what the wording is as long as it is clear and concise. It strikes me that "criticised for the incidents surrounding the 2002 Gujarat violence" is not particularly clear b/c I doesn't really explain what Modi is getting criticised for. NickCT (talk) 16:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this message before my recent edit. The "pogrom" thing appeared in the last couple of days, Jyoti thought it was a bit strong and seems to have attempted to water it down. I've no particularl opinion about the wording except that it took us many weeks to come to some sort of agreement regarding the current wording in the lead and for that reason any substantive changes to it should be discussed first. Thus, in my edit I reinstated the paragraph as it was prior to the introduction of "wilful", "pogrom" etc, People need to accept that we're never going to have a lead section that pleases us all: the best we can hope for is one with which we can all live. - Sitush (talk) 17:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

@Sitush - re "the best we can hope for is one with which we can all live" - Ah yes. I've been in that kind of situation before ;-)

It seems to me, however, that the compromise wording arrived at is so vague and watered down that it's essentially meaningless and unhelpful for readers.

Can we think of a way to make it clearer? NickCT (talk) 19:48, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I thought it was quite strong and I reverted it to the last version, the same thing that Sitush did eventually. IMHO the incident cannot be addressed as pogrom unchallenged/unanimously and the title of the referenced article lends a phrase readily. I suppose if we put the 'wilful', 'pogrom' view in BLP in lead we may have to again consider giving his pov and SIT report also? Just a thought, I am not dead sure about it! Jyoti (talk) 03:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

What is wrong with pogrom? It is widly percieved as a pogrom, as attested to by multpile academic sources. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:11, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I never said it is wrong so I won't counter you on that! :-) My point is won't the pov of sources which would rather not call it so also have to be presented then? --Jyoti (talk) 08:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Sure, if you have one which says it was not a pogrom. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:37, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

There is no doubt that some sources refer to it as a pogrom. That said, others do not and it is an emotive word in its common usage. It can be avoided simply by using the linked article's title.

@NickCT:, I'm sure that the lead can be improved, as per my comment in the RfC above, but I'd disagree that what we have is essentially meaningless and unhelpful. It is a disappointing lowest common denominator but not completely lacking in function. I'm not sure that now is the time to improve it because faffing around with the thing while an election campaign is going on is asking for trouble, especially given the history of this article even in less tumultuous real-life situations. I'm absolutely certain that I'm not the person to do it, when ever it happens: I always find someone else to kickstart the leads when I've written GAs etc because I find them awkward even for non-controversial topics. FWIW, this article may well be featuring in The Times of India soon - they've contacted me and I'm sure that they will have contacted others also: we're not driven by the opinion of a newspaper etc but any mention of it in a newspaper is likely to drive more viewers to it and more attempts to edit it, semi-protected or not. - Sitush (talk) 08:46, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

@Jyoti, Darkness Shines - regarding the use of the word "pogrom" - Whether the word "pogrom" is used or not, strikes me as a slightly academic point. After glancing at the sources, it seems like the most common name for this incident was the "2002 Gujarat riots". I'm not sure how the article actually got name 2002 Gujarat violence is a little beyond me.

@Jyoti, Sitush - So how do you feel about the following potential wordings -

1)He is a controversial figure both within India and internationally. Among other criticisms, his administration has frequently been accused of having willfully failed to act to prevent the anti-Muslim violence which took place during the 2002 Gujarat riots.

2)He is a controversial figure both within India and internationally. Among other criticisms, his administration has frequently been accused of having failed to act to prevent the anti-Muslim violence which took place during the 2002 Gujarat riots.

3)He is a controversial figure both within India and internationally. Among other criticism, his administration has been accused of not having acted to prevent the anti-Muslim violence which took place during the 2002 Gujarat riots.

If you do feel there are issues with these wordings, please let me know. I want to push on this because the current wording (i.e. "his administration has been criticised for the incidents surrounding the 2002 Gujarat violence.") seems terribly vague, an unbecoming of an article of this importance. It might not be "completely lacking in function", but it's pretty darn close. NickCT (talk) 12:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It's probably called the broader "2002 Gujarat violence" because it includes the train burning (which wasn't a riot).—indopug (talk) 15:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Any of the above are fine with me. (1) seems to represent the sources most accurately (the commonly used phrase is complicity) but the others are acceptable, too. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Why are terror bombings against Modi not mentioned in article?

Why are the terrorist incidents against Modi not mentioned in this article? They include the 2013 Patna bombings and this here: --Calypsomusic (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Four Indian Mujahideen terrorists arrested, had plans to target Narendra Modi

Terror outfit, Indian Mujahideen’s (IM) expert bomb-maker, Waqas alias Javed, a resident of Punjab in Pakistan was arrested along with three others suspected members of IM from Jaipur and Jodhpur in Rajasthan by the Special Cell of Delhi police.

The terror module, which was busted with the help of Intelligence Bureau, was learnt to have been holed up in Rajasthan for past few weeks and had plans to carry out terror attacks during the election rally of BJP prime ministerial candidate Narendra Modi.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/four-suspected-im-terrorists-arrested/

Two days after serial blasts targeted Narendra Modi's Patna rally, the Uttar Pradesh police today said they had received intelligence inputs about terrorists plotting to attack the BJP's prime ministerial candidate's October 19 rally in Kanpur. http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/terror-attack-planned-on-narendra-modi-s-kanpur-rally-too-says-police-439076

Ahead of BJP's prime ministerial candidate Narendra Modi's rally in Muzaffarpur, there are reports that the March 3 address could come under terror attack. According to reports, to carry out the terror attack help of women present at the rally could be sought. http://zeenews.india.com/news/bihar/narendra-modi-faces-terror-attack-threat-ahead-of-muzaffarpur-rally_914256.html

Two suspected terrorists were on Wednesday arrested by the UP ATS team near Gorakhpur for their alleged motive to carry out suicide attacks during BJP prime ministerial nominee Narendra Modi's upcoming poll rally in Gorakhpur. http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/two-suspected-terrorists-arrested-in-up-ats-gorakhpur-narendra-modi/1/351388.html

1. "Gujarat Model and Inclusive Development – Facts & Figures". India 272+. Retrieved 22 March 2014.
2. http://indiatoday.intoday.in/gallery/india-today-cvoter-mood-of-the-nation-survey-bjp-pm-candidate/1/9956.html
3. http://www.ndtv.com/elections/article/election-2014/more-indian-voters-favour-narendra-modi-than-rahul-gandhi-us-based-pew-survey-488859
4. http://www.ndtv.com/elections/article/election-2014/more-indian-voters-favour-narendra-modi-than-rahul-gandhi-us-based-pew-survey-488859
5. http://www.hindustantimes.com/specials/coverage/myindia-myvote/chunk-ht-ui-myindiamyvote-countdownto2014/unhappy-indians-clamour-for-change-at-lok-sabha-election-poll/sp-article10-1188604.aspx
6. "Opinion polls: UPA losing ground, Modi's projection as PM candidate will double NDA advantage". Indiatvnews.com. 22 May 2013.
7. "Narendra Modi could tilt the scales for BJP with 220 seats – Oneindia News". One India News. 22 May 2013.
8. http://www.firstpost.com/politics/three-polls-one-message-no-alternative-to-modi-for-bjp-804581.html

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