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History page vandalism?

I can't say who did this, since the history page has been altered, but in the Estes Kefauver talk page I pointed out that the map was inaccurate and the map was altered (still inaccurate, but that's not really germane) and the history was then altered to make it appear that the map alteration occurred several months before I complained, not several months after. This is easily confirmed by a look at the internet way-back machine. This makes me look like an idiot who can't read. Who even has the power to do this and isn't this a violation of some rule? I assume whoever did this must be abusing a position of trust here and probably has continued to do so. Is this an accepted practice here? My initial post is under the name ezra c v mildew desire Jr. Vladimir tsarejamewitz (talk) 04:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The article uses templates and images. Those are edited separately. Perhaps someone edited the image in question. Enigma 05:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the OP is referring to File:1952DemocraticPresidentialPrimaries.svg. The map was changed on February 2013 which amongst other things, added DC. So the history is indeed there, the OP was simply confused about where. Nil Einne (talk) 15:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I was going to link to the history of the image in question, but there was more than one image and I didn't want to spend the time figuring out which one he was referring to. Heh. Enigma 19:59, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The DC info was NOT added in 2013! Check the page for may 2012 and you'll see that it already lists DC and other changes which were responses to my Dec 2012 talk page entry. This is a falsified history, and the proof of this can be found via the way-back machine. I STILL would like to know if this is an accepted practice here or if it is against the rules, And how it can be determined who is messing up the history.

And Enigmaman, the image history shows the image I referred to being replaced BEFORE I mentioned it (again, the way-back shows the truth). The first image was the one there when I complained, the second was the one added after that, although the relevant wikipedia histories show it being added before my complaint(that is, unless the page histories have been altered again!) And learn some damn manners, enigmaman, if you have a question try asking it instead of laughing at me while you discuss me in the third person. Or do you feel that all the grandiose talk here about civility is somehow beneath you?Vladimir tsarejamewitz (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I am always civil. I was not "laughing" at you. If you don't understand how Misplaced Pages works, try asking a question rather than being rude to the people trying to help you. I was trying to help and this is what I get. Enigma 21:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

When you view an old revision of an article, it always displays the current version of the used images and templates. That's just how the software works. The wiki source of the revision is rendered as it would look today. If you want to see the history of an image or template then you must view its file page or template page. PrimeHunter (talk) 15:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

But that won't always be the case.... — Scott • talk 19:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The Koenraad Elst machine

It seems to me (and to other editors) that the work of Calypsomusic (talk · contribs) amounts to little more than writing up articles on non-notable books by Koenraad Elst. Their contributions to the many AfDs started by Darkness Shines (DS, you are hereby pinged) indicated that they lack much wherewithal in the areas of WP:RS and WP:NPOV--now that's no crime, nor no sin either, but given that they are basically an SPA, one wonders if this warrants administrative action or at least wider discussion. So far any disruption seems limited to copying and pasting "keep" rationales in AfDs and then flooding said AfDs with walls of text and links to blogs and supposedly important testimony, and I'm in the process of closing some of those AfDs, but I think this is worth being looked at by others. Drmies (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Relevant AfDs: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Saffron Swastika, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Decolonizing the Hindu Mind, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ayodhya and After: Issues Before Hindu Society, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ayodhya, The Finale, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Negationism in India: Concealing the Record of Islam, and there may be more. Note: I have closed a few of those as "keep", on admittedly on the basis of less-than-ideal evidence. I just closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Update on the Aryan Invasion Debate as "redirect" on the suggestion of Tokyogirl79; I have no objection whatsoever to the ones I decided as "keep" becoming redirects as well. In a nutshell, I found the "mentions" brought up in those AfDs to be relevant enough, but there is no way they are going to help in article writing. Drmies (talk) 17:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Weird, I never got a notification that you had pinged me? Darkness Shines (talk) 10:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I gave up participating in those AfD discussions due to the walls of text, incessant comments and potshots being taken by Calypsomusic. Flat Out let's discuss it 10:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

What Flat Out mentioned is flat out important. When AfDs get hit by walls of text like that - and I've unfortunately seen it happen a lot on AfDs related to South Asian politics and religion - people lose interest in participating. That's bad, because such discussions are enhanced when more editors participate and share thoughts. Additionally, it becomes a hassle for the closer as they have to sift through a lot of text, much of which is often irrelevant. It just messes it up for everybody. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The account seems dormant now. It made its first edits on March 11, and its last edits on April 11. Exactly one month of activity, and now that the AfDs have been closed the activity has stopped for now.

Shall the problem areas simply be noted and we move on? The editor is a noob; if they come back, there is a chance they could be guided toward more productive editing. Most of us made large blunders when we were new. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Well, they're back, with The Rushdie Affair: The Novel, the Ayatollah, and the West, some book with an afterword by you-know-who. Drmies (talk) 00:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The user is now engaging in the same problematic behavior. In addition to another bunk article created on the same grounds, there is now a measure of battleground mentality on the talk pages of some related articles. Interestingly enough, while the user is engaging in such behavior at those locations, they have not participated in this discussion so far.

For most users reading this, I don't need to go over what we all know could happen. We have all seen intelligent editors who either don't get Misplaced Pages policies or don't care gradually waste more and more of the community's time; when nothing is done, they get bold. I see that starting here. So the question is, can some sort of community intervention be performed? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Personally I figure this is a sock, given the way he has followed just about all my edits. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You do have a lot of enemies, but who do you think this could be a sock of and why? How can you be sure that isn't just paranoia? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The first edits by this account were to deprod four articles I had prodded, chances of a newbie finding all four of these NN book articles one after the other? It then restored content added by a sock at another article, content which I had removed, the account just smells socky. The wallotext approach reminds me of Mrt, but there are a similarity with another editor and I have filed an SPI. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you ;) Flat Out let's discuss it 11:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Please Temp-Block Dicklyon for Disruptive Reversions

Dear Admins,

Please block {Dicklyon} from editing articles because he deems that my editing generally is bad and evidently that he will save Misplaced Pages from it by reverting whatever past edits of mine he disagrees with--sometimes without my knowledge.

He began on my talk page, calling me incompetent and telling me to stop copy-editing. Sixteen minutes and another talk page message (I only discovered it now) later, he reverted an edit of mine; three minutes later, another; one minute later, yet another! I had already faced this problem before, driven into a month's anxious silence and failed dispute-resolution efforts by another editor's threat to call AN/I: I sought arbitration for this longstanding problem of accusations and threats, with Dick's deeds being the straw breaking the camel's back.

I told Dick I sought arbitration, which would have sufficed had Dick not made this problem urgent by openly reverting three more of my edits and, I discovered, reverting three more without telling me. Some of his edit summaries were just "Please stop that," or "Removed more of Duxwing's odd editing," evincing that his problem is not with the articles but me. Most egregious were his secretly reverting my Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium and Manual of Style edits, which were already consensus. I cannot understand why his disliking my editing has not driven him to instead call administrators to block me: any reasonable person would know that seven reversions and two talk page threads cannot be simultaneously discussed and that however many secret reversions cannot be discussed at all. Dick has thus neglected the "Discuss" of Bold-Revert-Discuss, whereby articles are edited throughout Misplaced Pages, and circumvented editorial conduct dispute resolution to effectively block me. I therefore want him blocked from editing articles until he and I can resolve this dispute.

Open Reversions

2. Rocket
3. Impulse
4. Turn
5. (Crocodile)
6. Awareness Office

Secret Reversions

1. Principle (consensus)
2. of Style (consensus)
3. Music

Note: This request for administrative help is my first and therefore may contain unintentional errors.

Duxwing (talk) 22:02, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

• Well, this edit on the Hardy-Weinberg article makes sense to me--esp. the last tweak ("are in real populations") is an improvement. More importantly, how is this a secret edit? Drmies (talk) 22:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

By "secret" I don't know have any idea what he means; perhaps whether he received a revert notification. Please see discussion at his talk page. And please do let me know if you think any of my reverts were less appropriate than the one you said makes sense. Dicklyon (talk) 22:12, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure you're right. The "secret" reverts were reverts that undid Duxwing's changes but not directly after Duxwing made them (there were intervening edits), so Duxwing wouldn't have gotten a notification about them. I feel like pulling the old man's "back in my day" rant... The whole automatic notification thing still feels new to me. :) -- Atama頭 22:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not use the word "incompetent", but yes I was less gentle or patient than I could have been, because I saw in User talk:Duxwing that quite a few editors before me (Tony1 (talk · contribs), Joel B. Lewis (talk · contribs), Cyclopia (talk · contribs), U3964057 (talk · contribs), Darkness Shines (talk · contribs), McGeddon (talk · contribs), Supasheep (talk · contribs), Velella (talk · contribs), Jim1138 (talk · contribs), Theroadislong (talk · contribs), AddWittyNameHere (talk · contribs), David Eppstein (talk · contribs)) had tried to get him to improve, modify, curtail, or stop his "copy edits" that were doing so much to make articles worse; his edit on the WP:MOS is what drew my attention in the first place (see Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#Copy_Edit_of_Lead where 3 other editors explain to him that his edits were a big problem). On reviewing his recent edits, I found quite a few doing more harm than good, and felt that a revert would be most effective; if he then wants to go the next step and discuss one or more of those, I could do that. But instead he jumped straight to trying to get some higher power to remove me as an obstacle; see our brief interaction of yesterday at User talk:Duxwing#Copyediting. If anyone sees portions of these reverted copy edits that would be worth salvaging, by all means go for it. Dicklyon (talk) 22:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Duxwing's complaint has no merit. The user has failed to improve despite the many suggestions from more experienced editors, leaving Dicklyon to conclude that Duxwing is a net drag on Misplaced Pages's resources. I agree. Binksternet (talk) 22:39, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Oh dear, I remember this user. I urge administrators to look at User talk:Duxwing and to his contributions. There is something... weird. He seems to be bent on doing "copyediting" edits which regularly make the articles worse, since he has poor command of English language and grammar (this is evident even to me, not a native English speaker). See where for example he changed "callus" to "callous", with a totally absurd reason. I think we are in definite lack of competence territory.--cyclopia 22:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

cyclopia, I think you are speaking in jest: are you? Duxwing (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@Dick You are woefully misrepresenting what you said, which was: “Duxwing…back off on the ... you should not be doing them.”

I'd like to add that Dicklyon's behavior seems justified per WP:HOUNDING: "Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles." -- Atama頭 22:55, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@Binksternet I have already covered your point: if Dick believed that I were a net drag, then he should have called for my blocking instead of so reverting my recent consented edits as to prevent my knowing that he did. I had to root through his edit history--which never explained the consented secret reversions--just to find what happened. Duxwing (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:DISPUTE, it is conventional to try to talk things out first, not go straight to asking admins for sanctions. And there's no firm rule against being a net drag on the project, as far as I know. It's a thought, though. Dicklyon (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, take a look at WP:WATCHLIST; you'll find it a lot easier to notice when someone edits an article that you have edited, making it easier for you to be aware of "secret" reverts. Dicklyon (talk) 23:16, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

@Dicky, I find your claim that I could talk about the reversions disingenuous considering how many and what kind you did. Duxwing (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to use cute names for me. The various article talk pages are a good place to talk about your edits. Or your talk page, where you told me to get lost. Dicklyon (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not tell you to "get lost". I told you I would not talk to you because I sought arbitration because you would not stop reverting my edits even when I tried talking to you--you seemed not to care what I had to say. You ignored the very dispute-resolution process you claim I broke, and claiming that I was in the wrong because I should have put those articles on my watchlist to accommodate your preferences is victim-blaming.

@Atama Hounding continues to describe how these reversions can be used, indicating an intention for this allowance. Duxwing (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Duxwing (talk) 23:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Here is one of his edits that I haven't reverted yet, but will, unless someone beats me to it or pipes up to question whether reverting it would be the best thing here. Dicklyon (talk) 23:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

This sort of reversion is exactly what I am talking about. The only difference between this discussion and our last is that in this one he warns me. Do you understand that I cannot carry on a multithreaded AN/I discussion and dispute your reversions? Duxwing (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

So sorry I dragged you into this AN/I discussion, so you don't have time to discuss anything more useful. Dicklyon (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The SSME edit just got reverted by an IP Address. Quite a coincidence, eh, Dick? Duxwing (talk) 23:25, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed it is. Dicklyon (talk) 23:28, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

The same IP is reverting my edits one after another--literally seconds apart. I think you are sock-puppeting. Duxwing (talk) 23:32, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Given the open discussion of your edits here, and since Dicklyon is active on his account, that's pretty weak evidence for sockpuppetry. —C.Fred (talk) 23:34, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Someone is working hard to make one or both of us look bad. It happens. Dicklyon (talk) 23:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no friends, Dick, and to my knowledge you have no enemies. You already have shown that you don't care for discussion. Why should you care about AN/I? Duxwing (talk) 23:39, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I reviewed your edits as the discussion here was of interest. I reverted your edits as you have much to learn about copy editing. 86.135.164.83 (talk) 23:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Furthermore, Dick, you clearly cannot take responsibility for your actions or understand how others function: "So sorry I dragged you into this AN/I discussion, so you don't have time to discuss anything more useful". You have thus already decided this issue yourself--just like you decided that I needed to be stopped without telling me why--and railroad anyone standing between you and your goal. I, not you, am the obstacle. Duxwing (talk) 23:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Dicklyon (talk) 00:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

We therefore can conclude that "if he then wants to go the next step and discuss one or more of those, I could do that" is a lie because you have just agreed that "I ... am the obstacle" to your goals and therefore not someone with whom you would discuss any edits: why should we believe that you have good faith--or anything you have to say that isn't nailed-down with diffs? If you are willing to lie before this Administrative Board, then we must doubt whether you even thought my edits were bad--you very well may just be "working hard to make look bad". And even if you are not, lying to the board is wrong in itself; furthermore, declaring it too a mere object that you must "railroad" and admitting that you cannot take responsibility or understand others also evinces your contempt of its decisions and our Wikipedian community, thus further evincing that the IP is a sockpuppet.

Most condemningly, the IP's edit history begins with exactly the edit that you proposed to make--reverting my edit to the Space Shuttle Main Engine--and beyond the other rapid-fire reversions has only one edit, which it made after its post here. Coincidentally, this edit was also a reversion. Whatever I accusations I have previously made are trivial to the ones that your agreement has evinced.

Duxwing (talk) 00:26, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I say the above not to assassinate your character before the mods but explain why you would be controlling the IP: you have already done unto me like it has. Duxwing (talk) 23:57, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Awful convenient of you to do exactly what I was complaining about to exactly what Dick was talking about, eh, IP? Duxwing (talk) 23:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Duxwing, when you started this thread I understood what you were saying. Parts of it made sense and the logical gaps were, well, clearly logical gaps, so OK. I can't claim to have read the threat in its entirety, but toward the end I don't know what you're talking about.

Many WP articles need copyediting. A quick look at your copyediting suggests that you get some things right and some things wrong. Here, you change "A large number of" to "Many". Excellent. "Many" is what "a large number of" means. (If it didn't mean "many", it would be misphrased.) Perhaps you should concentrate on some kinds of edits rather than others. Famously, there's a (to my mind) unfortunate page titled Misplaced Pages:Be bold; one of these days I should write a superior replacement, "Be timid". -- Hoary (talk) 01:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Hoary, would you please move this concern to my Talk page if you think moving it is appropriate? I want to keep this discussion focused on Dicklyon's conduct. Duxwing (talk) 01:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

@Hoary Thanks for your first paragraph, which I missed.  :) I recommend reading the entire thread to understand what happened.

@Mods, can we continue this discussion? Dick has admitted to my claims and even bad faith (not caring what anyone, and therefore AN/I, has to say about his behavior) and lacking empathetic competence (not understanding how people work). I think these problems exceed my original complaint and therefore warrant more discussion about whether and how Dick should be among us: good faith and competence are required here. Duxwing (talk) 03:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. Dicklyon is of immense value to the encyclopedia while you are a net negative. You have no leverage against him. This whole discussion should result in a WP:Boomerang effect. Binksternet (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Being of "immense value" does not excuse bad behavior, and being "a net negative" does not prevent me from reporting it. Duxwing (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Noting this discussion it seems this is a new user who needs useful feedback. Someone should point them to WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, and maybe WP:edit warring, and maybe a place where they can do something useful (patrolling?) as they figure out how things work. Reverting a good edit with the edit summary of "vandalism" is not good practice. —Neotarf (talk) 03:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I already know about BRD, and I was specifically trying to get Dick to participate in it when he evidently refused. Duxwing (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes. As I pointed out, about a dozen editors tried patiently to counsel him before me. My multiple reverts were partly to get him to understand that he needs to take input. If you'd like to volunteer to mentor him, maybe he can be helped. Dicklyon (talk) 05:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

That's disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point. Duxwing (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The only advice anyone asks me for these days is about leaving Misplaced Pages. If he wants adoption there is Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user, or failing that, the tea house or Misplaced Pages:Questions. Otherwise I have restored one of your edits that he reverted, that's all I have time for. Someone should check the rest of his edits, a lot of articles don't have page watchers.—Neotarf (talk) 06:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

What do you suggest doing?

The issue here is skill. Your editing skill is being questioned, but you do not have enough skill to understand the issues other editors have with it. The choir analogy is a good one here. IMHO you need to take a break from doing the kind of editing you have been doing, and either do something else that will develop your skill in that area, or find a different area where you have better skills. Instead of working style issues across a broad range of topics, it might work out better to pick one or two topics you are passionate about, or want to read up on, and work on articles in those areas. The style issues that are such a stumbling block for you now would come more naturally if you were trying to find a way to express something you found important about that topic. Or if it is style issues that really interest you, there is a huge internet world of grammar and lingua-blogs out there, not to mention community resources, that can help fine-tune your understanding, for instance, of the difference between descriptive and prescriptive grammar.

The Misplaced Pages is really an interesting phenomenon. It is a place where you can learn things about human nature, and about yourself, that you would never be able to find out in real life. But in the end it is also about building an encyclopedia, and when it gets to the point where you are actually causing other people more work than you are doing, it's time to change direction. —Neotarf (talk) 18:06, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

If I am so unskilled as to not understand their complaints, then would you please dumb them down enough for me to understand? :)

Style issues are what interest me here, and if you would please show me the way to improving on them, then I will take it. Duxwing (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

You will have to take their complaints up with them directly, if they have the time to engage on the issue. But this is a little bit like walking into a car mechanic shop, not knowing what a carburetor is, and expecting to have it explained. For linguistics you might start with Language Log, or maybe David Crystal's "Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language"--it used to be readily available online for download, or just start googling to see what interests you. If you can't access your local university or community college's writing courses, you might try Perdue OWL. —Neotarf (talk) 19:00, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Neotarf, it's not really productive to tell newby editors "Go back to school and don't edit until you're good at it." What's needed here is simply a change of behavior and attitude. Many editors have taken the time to explain to Duxwing exactly what's wrong with any edit that he cared to inquire about; as I would have, if he had asked. He can easily fix the problem by putting more time into asking and listening, rather than just complaining that his campaign of editing is being impeded by those who revert him. Dicklyon (talk) 19:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

My "campaign of edits" is not what I'm complaining about. I was complaining about my talk page and not being able to keep up with the pace of reversions. Duxwing (talk) 20:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dicklyon, the more I look at this, the more it looks like a WP:COMPETENCE issue. Multiple explanations have been given here, by many many editors who have issues with his editing, and Duxwing has not shown that he even understands them. In fact, he has asked for simpler explanations. If Duxwing can't keep pace with the reversions, he is the one who needs to slow down, and understand just one edit at a time. —Neotarf (talk) 03:47, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• I disagree with Duxwing's description of his MOS edits as "Manual of Style edits, which were already consensus". If he is referring to his edits to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Mathematics, then three editors at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Mathematics have disagreed with them and no others have supported — those edits were definitely not consensus. It was also disturbing that Duxwing should edit the MOS while in the middle of a discussion at Talk:Waring's_problem#Copy_Editing, in order to support his minority opinion in that discussion. Deltahedron (talk) 07:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Another editor had removed only the parts of my edit with which he disagreed, and Dick, ignoring the Talk page, carefully reverted everything else. Thus, Dick removed my consented edits. And I did not change it to support my opinion; I changed it because I happened upon some errors, just like I do any other article. Duxwing (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

In this diff at the WP:MOS lead, I changed your #1 to #2 because your version used the unnecessarily awkward plural possessive, the "like" where "such as" was correct, and other non-useful differences. There's a certain idiomatic parallelism to "certain X ... and others", which was lost in your version where "others'" seems ambiguous, as if it might be referring to input from other people. You could have asked me for further info on this one or any other one, but I don't think you did:

1. (yours): fully covering various topics (like punctuation) and presenting others' key points.
2. (longstanding): covering certain topics (such as punctuation) in full, and presenting the key points of others.

The fact that you had not yet been fully reverted does not mean you should claim you had consensus for this part of your change. Dicklyon (talk) 16:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• I came upon Duxwing after their edits to the Maths MOS. I also had a look at their user page where they described themselves as a grammar hammer. It was pretty much immediately obvious to me that they had a highly inflated opinion of their own competence and were determined to fight to stick in their changes. From the discussion here it seems to me they have been fighting for quite a while. this puts me in mind of something I read recently in Help! How to deal with choir members who sing out of tune? which I think is an interesting read on a similar type problem in another setting, and the last section on 'the biggest problem of all' is particularly relevant here. Dmcq (talk) 10:34, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I wrote "The Grammar Hammer" as a joke about my edit summaries when I helped a Netherlander write Spore fanfiction when I was twelve; I liked how "grammar" and "hammer" rhymed and had tired of writing "spelling, grammar, and style". I don't think I'm some magical grammar guru, just that I can fix bad grammar like anyone else. And I am not determined to "stick in my changes" because they are mine: I think some wordings are good and others bad, and when I think of a good wording to replace a bad--often after having considered many also-bad options in quick succession--I pursue it to better Misplaced Pages. Hence my seeming narcissism: I would not knowingly and purposefully make an edit I thought worsened the article. Duxwing (talk) 13:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not saying you put in edits that you think would worsen articles. What I'm saying is that in my opinion and that of a number of other people as shown here your edits often worsen articles. That is why they are reverted. You are fighting to put in your edits; you have raised a complaint here trying to block a person who reverted some of your edits. In terms of the blog I pointed at you are a choir member who sings loudly out of tune but says yes when the choirmaster asks them if they think they are pitching correctly. Dmcq (talk) 14:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not saying you accused me of bad faith but trying to explain why I do what I do. How often is too often? I am only human, having about five hundred edits and only thirty-five ever contested, giving a 93% success rate. What is the requisite? 95? 99? A perfect record? I asked for the block to prevent his vendetta against me--one whereto he has admitted--from ending with my entire history's being reshaped to his satisfaction. Your comparison of me to the choir member is inaccurate because less than one in ten of my edits have been reverted; I am at worst a choir member whose voice cracks every once in a while. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duxwing (talk • contribs)

Ok, you can't have it both ways here. If you've only had 35 of your edits complained about (which I doubt it's that low), then you have no need to be bringing ANYONE to ANI - you should back away, and learn. Nothing worth complaining about with 35 - and I'd bet that they weren't all complained about by Dick, were they? Now ... in reality, it's actually more like only about 35 of your edits have been good (maybe 35% on a good day) ... that's a number I can get behind. DP 17:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I counted in February (25) and added the ten from this dispute (35). Even if I missed another ten (45) I'm still over 90% success. I got AN/I wanted to pre-empt the problem from occurring, like it almost did when the aforementioned IP editor reverted four of my edits faster than I could refresh this page. Can we separate this discussion into two parts: one about Dick, and the other about me? My head is swimming with the effort of keeping this stuff straight. Duxwing (talk) 17:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• I am confused why Dicklyon is being singled out in this way. I too have had very significant differences of opinion with Duxwing and I now chose not to respond to his comments on my talk page because it just leads to endless time wasting. The whole editing pattern by Duxwing seems to be set upon entangling editors in endlessly arcane discussions about the minutiae of English grammar and its meaning which is a grave waste of everyone's time and energy. I have not yet seen an edit by Duxwing that adds anything of any merit (although I certainly don't go looking for his/her edits - there are much better ways to spend my time) but I have encountered several that have had a seriously deleterious effect on the articles and which I have had to revert. There are many other editors who expressed serious concerns about the editing style, the bizarre use of often archaic English and about grammatical constructions that are most awkward and unnecessary. I shall try and refrain from any further significant inputs to this debate, but it seems very clear to me that the complainant has no case, and that the many reputable and established editors who have properly raised concerns on the complainants talk page have raised very real concerns that cannot be allowed to continue unabated.  Velella    14:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dick is not being "singled out". I wanted to slow his reversions to a pace I could discuss. I am disturbed that you would doubt my good faith. If you have read only a few of my edits, then why should we believe your categorical condemnation of my editing is anything but a hasty generalization? I have gone to great lengths to address those concerns, stopped only by people like you, who simply refuse to tell me whether my editing has improved. Duxwing (talk) 14:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Nobody simply refuses to tell you if your editing has improved; it has not. If you think that I reverted something that was actually worth keeping, point it out and let's see if others agree. The input will do us both good. Dicklyon (talk) 16:26, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

First, I said "whether" not "if," including the possibility of its not having improved; don't twist my words. And people can and have refused; e.g., you by admitting you see me as an "obstacle" and Velella by saying he "chose not to respond to comments on talk page". The falsehood of your assertion that they do not is so obvious that I question your good faith. The question I've brought here is not about the reversions or the edits; it's about your having made them so quickly that I never could dispute them all. Finally, stop disingenuously pretending you care about this input: you already have said the AN/I and I are only "an obstacle" to you. Duxwing (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

My point was that you could start by disputing any one of my reverts; what you learn might apply to others, and then you wouldn't need to dispute them all. Can you pick one to ask me about? Have you ever asked me about one? If so, I don't find it (checking back, I find your very first words to me were on your talk page, where you wrote "I will request arbitration on this issue because I have already discussed my copy-editing with other editors and want to permanently resolve this issue."). Since you referred specifically to the MOS edit above, I provided details reasons there for why I reverted. If this process is slowing you down, we seem to have agreement that that's a good thing. If it's slowing down a half dozen others, such as me, that's less good. Dicklyon (talk) 17:22, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dick, you are misrepresenting the truth again. Your very first words to me were, "Duxwing, I seriously think you should back off on the copy-editing" followed by three reversions. I then correctly reasoned that you only saw me as "an obstacle"--why has no one commented on your admitting that you do?--and one never talks to obstacles unless necessary to remove them. Duxwing (talk) 17:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The boomerang has to hit

It seems there is a consensus that Duxwing (talk · contribs) edits are overall disruptive, and that he refuses to hear when they are called into question. I fear some edit restriction would be in order. --cyclopia 17:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Cyclopia, whether my edits are overall disruptive or not (remember that my editing changed after the February conflagration on my Talk Page) I so do not refuse to hear other's complaints that I have spent this entire AN/I discussion trying to get Dick to tell me why he reverted my edits and to slow my discussion with him to a reasonable pace. Moreover, any restriction would be pointless because my only edits were to the IP's sudden reversion of my most recent edits. Duxwing (talk) 17:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

If you had really changed in February then you would not be here now at ANI. Binksternet (talk) 17:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Exactly - a quick review of Duxwing's talkpage - and my sincere attempts to assist being ignored and questioned as to "why" shows that Duxwing hasn't learned anything. I'd never heard of Duxwing until yesterday DP 17:22, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

DP, I am sorry for not having replied to you sooner--your huge message necessitated a huge, considered reply--and I really was only curious about "why".  :) You have not been ignored, and I greatly appreciate your help. Duxwing (talk) 17:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's start with a warning, by an admin with the power and intent to enforce it if the advice to behave better is ignored. Something like "Duxwing is advised to follow the "D" part of WP:BRD; when edits are reverted, they should be discussed, preferably on the article talk page, and the reverted edits or others like them should not be repeated unless the problem is resolved; he is warned that further disruption such as repeating contested edits or seeking adminstrative sanctions for simple editing disputes will lead to a block." Or whatever some admin sees as more appropriate. Dicklyon (talk) 17:13, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

That wording works for me. Binksternet (talk) 17:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Why are you talking about BRD? You stated and admitted you were never open to it in the first place. And if you look on any talk page of any article wherein I have recently had contested edits--e.g., Manual of Style or Hardy-Weinberg--then you will find that I have always followed BRD. You are the one who broke it. Duxwing (talk) 17:22, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no wish to be unhelpful, but there are times when attention to the First law of holes can be helpful.  Velella    17:27, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you want me to drop the request? Duxwing (talk) 17:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's enough to ask Duxwing to do more discussion after his edits are reverted as he is already doing that and his edits have not substantially improved. The issue as I see it is that he persists in what he calls "copyediting" and does not understand - even after receiving detailed feedback - that these edits change the meaning of articles and/or make articles more difficult to read. Therefore it seems that there may be a WP:COMPETENCE issue that I don't think talking or explaining more will alleviate. Perhaps direct oversight of his edits to articles by a mentor will eventually help, if such a mentor can be found. Failing that, a restriction on "copyediting" might help, if such a thing is possible. Ca2james (talk) 19:59, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, not practical. WP has a policy of tolerating semi-competent writers by getting them to behave sensibly. Where you say "he is already doing that and his edits have not substantially improved", that's half true. The problem is that he stopped discussing and went for administrative interference. I don't mind reverting every incompetent edit he makes, if he'll then take the time to go the talk page of the article in question and discuss what improvement he thinks he is making; sure I might get impatient with him, but more likely he'll eventually learn that there are ways to move forward and ways to be stuck, and that everything he has tried so far has left him stuck. Dicklyon (talk) 20:17, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion at Talk:Convergent_evolution#Copy_Editing has Duxwing explaining (perhaps for the first time) that one of his goals at Misplaced Pages, even his main one, is to rewrite articles to use "less ink", based on what seems to be his misunderstanding of "the Wikipedian Copy Editing Guide I read years ago". It may be the case that this goal was so obvious to him that he never brought it up when his edits were challenged, assuming that every other editor was operating under the same imaginary policy. I'm not quite sure what to make of this, but skimming his edit history, very nearly every "copyedit" edit he has made since last July has a red, negative number next to it. --McGeddon (talk) 08:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Competence is definitely an issue. Although Misplaced Pages generally suffers fools gladly, usually the editor must show an interest in changing the objectionable behavior. Otherwise people like Dicklyon will forever be spending their precious energies dealing with the editors' messes. That seems like disruption to me. Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Why is my competence an issue if my edits are due to a single misunderstanding, and when did I say that I would not stop trying to shorten articles if it were against policy? Duxwing (talk) 15:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This is not a single misunderstanding. This is at the very least 12 competent and committed editors expressing real concern over a period of months about your editing conduct. Please do try to understand. You brought this issue here , but if you hadn't another editor would probably have done so quite soon. You may recall my advice to you some months ago that your editing conduct might lead to a block. Unless there is some real sign that you both understand that and the seriousness of the comments being made, I regret that my warning all those weeks ago, may become a reality. If you need help, then fine, we can give help, but there has to be a real sea-change in behaviour and understanding before I, for one, will wish to expend much more time on this cause. Velella    15:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

With respect I ask: would you please elaborate? I think you mean to say that I should have from the complaints' number intuited that I needed a general review of my editing, and that I should have therefore sought someone to help me. I did both back in February with Jim1138, AddWittyNameHere, and seraphimblade and stopped getting help from them only because they would or could not reply. I concealed my deeds, concerns, and hurt feelings as much as possible because, knowing almost nothing about Misplaced Pages, I assumed one false move would cause my doom and that the less anyone knew, the less they could hurt me for or with; e.g., when you told me my editing might get me blocked, I stopped for thirty-one days despite Wiki-withdrawal and quivering every time I saw the site.

I recognized the concerns' seriousness again today when I asked for adoption, which seems necessary to help me with my confusion about copy-editing and this AN/I discussion. Again, with respect: is this behavior the sea-change you described?

P.S. The misunderstanding I mentioned was of Wikipedian Copy-Editing policy. The twelve-editor pile-up is a fiasco wherefore I apologize. Duxwing (talk) 16:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed Resolution

Seeing that I cannot seem to resolve my dispute with Dick, I want to get some help understanding what happened and various other concerns. Anyone know how to get adopted? Duxwing (talk) 18:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

That could be a great step. See Misplaced Pages:Adopt-a-user/Adoptee's Area. Dicklyon (talk) 20:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Moreover, I feel like all my complaints about Dick's behavior have been ignored. Why? Duxwing (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Ignored? You've got hundreds of kilobytes of reactions to your complaint right here. Read it. Dicklyon (talk) 21:48, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dicklyon's behavior is a lot like mine would have been had I taken an interest in your edits like he did. Binksternet (talk) 15:47, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I am not wholly convinced that off wiki posts like this are actually very helpful to your cause, being neither true nor mature.  Velella    23:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the above is that Dick hasn't really done anything wrong. He's protected articles from issues that have been approved by the community as a whole. So, you actually don't have compaints about Dick, you have complaints about the decisions of the community, and Dick's your target by substitution. Oddly enough, the community has tried to bend over backwards to get you to see things in one way, but you merely attack and argue otherwise. You are the one showing poor behaviour against Dick and the rest of the community, not the other way around. ES&L 11:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Lots more to clean up

Whatever the resolution here, it would be useful to have more eyes reviewing Duxwing's contribs, and repairing the widespread damage. I just found one that remained current since Feb. 1 (that is, on a thinly editted article), and reverted it becaused it mangled the meaning and grammar of the lead: . There are lots more needing repair. Dicklyon (talk) 20:12, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm cleaning up another I just found, per my detailed explanation at Talk:Convergent_evolution#Copy_Editing, where I make the point that each of the 8 sentences he touched was made worse, not better, by his copy edits. If anyone disagrees with any of these points, this would be a good time to say. Dicklyon (talk) 20:50, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, not so many. As I scan his edits, it is very hard to find any that have not already been reverted by someone previous to me. You would think this would be a clue ... Dicklyon (talk) 22:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dick, I have plenty of non-reverted edits:

• (actually 2 in a row)
• (actually 4 in a row)

If you want more, then I can provide them. Do more research before making a huge allegation like that one. Duxwing (talk) 15:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Be careful what you brag on. In the first one (including your edit before it that the one you linked was patching), the copy edit that was most obviously needed, to fix number disagreement in the lead sentence, was just worked around to churn other things (the article is so thinly edited that the mistake inserted in 2008 by Michael Hardy (talk · contribs) here had gone unnoticed all these years). And you did several of the "there exists" manglements that you have discussed extensively with another editor. See if you have learned anything: try to fix it yourself before someone just reverts it. Are any of the others net wins? Not clear. Dicklyon (talk) 17:26, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Too late, most of them have now been reverted and/or otherwise fixed. Did you make any edits that survived review? Dicklyon (talk) 04:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It would be better if Duxwing would agree to discuss any changes on the talk page *first*. And considering the way he has misinterpreted the lack of consensus for his proposals in the past, going to far as to change the MOS to support his proposals, it would be better if someone else made the changes. Perhaps Duxwing would agree to limit his edits to talk pages. —Neotarf (talk) 03:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not change the MOS to support my proposals: you are presuming bad faith not even reading my edits, which changed only the article's form. For how long would I limit my edits to talk pages, and are you essentially seeking my indefinite blocking? Duxwing (talk) 15:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This is not true. Duxwing made this edit to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Mathematics replacing "The lead should as far as possible be accessible to a general reader, so specialized terminology and symbols should be avoided as much as possible" by "The lead should be accessible to general readers: avoid special terminology and symbols", signficantly changing its meaning on a point directly related to a debate at Talk:Waring's problem relating to that very topic, in which Duxwing was arguing for his own wording on the grounds that the article lead was too technical . Deltahedron (talk) 16:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I blush at that edit when I regard it in retrospect, and I apologize for having accidentally muddied the waters. It was part of a larger one I made because I noticed tons of word cruft in the article, and removed the qualifiers because the article already had a general "common-sense" qualifier in its heading. Duxwing (talk) 16:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, simply. Duxwing has a good eye for what seems to be expressible in fewer syllables. And thus for example, yes, a passive clause with "by" plus noun phrase can be reexpressed as an active clause. But reexpressing it so doesn't necessarily improve it. English doesn't have passives merely in order to give twits like Strunk and White something to write about; on the contrary, the passive is a handy information packaging device (as are "it-clefts" and more besides) and is a good tool for certain expository purposes. People who don't realize this should reserve their BOLDness for areas other than copyediting. -- Hoary (talk) 05:02, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Where can I learn about these subjects? Duxwing (talk) 15:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Request immediate admin attention

Is taking the dispute public off-wiki like this tolerable within WP policy? If not, I request an admin take appropriate action against Duxwing. Dicklyon (talk) 05:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Not only is it tolerable within our policies for a user to take a dispute off-wiki, half the admins here currently are (or have been) members of sites devoted to "watchdogging" this place. See WP:OFFWIKI. Doc talk 05:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

And tolerable to tell such vicious lies about a fellow editor? Dicklyon (talk) 05:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

From what I understand, only the most egregious offenses on off-wiki forums are actionable here. Like posting your home address and threatening your life. We have no jurisdiction over what people say about us in off-wiki forums. Doc talk 05:35, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I see Misplaced Pages:NPA#Off-wiki attacks says

Misplaced Pages cannot regulate behavior in media not under the control of the Wikimedia Foundation, but personal attacks made elsewhere create doubt about the good faith of an editor's on-wiki actions. Posting personal attacks or defamation off-Misplaced Pages is harmful to the community and to an editor's relationship with it, especially when such attacks take the form of violating an editor's privacy. Such attacks can be regarded as aggravating factors by administrators and are admissible evidence in the dispute-resolution process, including Arbitration cases.

So, I hope some admin will take this aggravating factor into account and do the right thing here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

You're requesting "immediate" action here (a block?), for a personal attack that occurred off-wiki. Request denied. The link you provided lays out how off-wiki attacks can be cited as evidence in a future case. Doc talk 05:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I was requesting immediate attention. Thank you for that. If the right thing is nothing, so be it. Dicklyon (talk) 06:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry as well if I was terse. The first time I went to Misplaced Pages Review I was shocked how many active admins were there. Cheers :) Doc talk 06:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

And don't demand justice with Dirty Hands, Dick. You see me like I said I saw you: "Furthermore, Dick, you clearly cannot take responsibility for your actions or understand how others function: "So sorry I dragged you into this AN/I discussion, so you don't have time to discuss anything more useful". You have thus already decided this issue yourself--just like you decided that I needed to be stopped without telling me why--and railroad anyone standing between you and your goal. I, not you, am the obstacle. Duxwing (talk) 23:46, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Dicklyon (talk) 00:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)" Duxwing (talk) 06:46, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Minus the chimpanzee and substituting a common username for a real name, WP:DOX states, "The fact that a person either has posted personal information or edits under their own name, making them easily identifiable through online searches, is not an excuse for "opposition research". I want this attempted outing removed. I think I may have accidentally removed a comment. How can I replace it? Duxwing (talk) 07:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

There's no "outing" here. Google "Duxwing Misplaced Pages". And in reading your own quote above, note the "under your own name" part. Lots of editors here edit under their actual names. Even if your name is legally "Duxwing", you have no outing case here. Doc talk 07:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree it was not outing; it was also not me. The off-wiki link was posted up-thread by another editor, but nobody reacted there. Dicklyon (talk) 15:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Although taking things "off-wiki" in that specific fashion is not against policy, it's indicative that a) Duxwing 100% fails to recognize his own errors, b) Duxwing is under the immature/naïve belief that such an off-wiki post was a "good idea", and c) Duxwing has COMPLETELY missed the point: nobody is "kicking him off Misplaced Pages", and such ridiculous rhetoric is astronomically bad ES&L 11:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I have recognized several of my errors. I have been adopted, learned (for example) that "like" cannot replace "such as," and am learning what I did not before. Duxwing (talk)

Oh, and I love this response to Dux's thread there: "How can we know he is lying about your competence as an editor if we have no evidence of your competence?" <--- this is pure gold, AND is the crux of the matter! ES&L 11:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

This and this really does seem to be an overreaction by Duxwing, wholly against the tide of opinion. Regrettably this whole saga seems to smell of trolls.  Velella    14:46, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I did overreact, and I apologized to Dick. I meant no trolling. 15:37, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I posted there because I felt and feel that enough of my objections to Dick's behavior were ignored to necessitate external review of the AN/I discussion. Duxwing (talk) 16:13, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Dicklyon, that may not be a recommended practice, but I found it a very good example of the problem with Duxwing. He posted at that forum that his edits were being unfairly reverted at Misplaced Pages. When asked to provide an example or two, his response was, in essense: "Are you saying that I'm lying?" More than WP:COMPETENCE is involved here: I'd also recommend Duxwing understand & apply WP:Assume good faith in dealing with others, both on & off Misplaced Pages. -- llywrch (talk) 19:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I will take a look at the overall situation in the morning (US ET) and try to bring this thread nearer to a conclusion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Analysis and proposal

I have carefully reviewed this thread and many of Duxwing's contributions linked in it, as well as some of his other contributions.

Duxwing appears to lack the skills necessary to add value as a copyeditor, at least of technical articles. Dicklyon is correct that Duxwing's copyedits introduce more errors and infelicities than they remove. The discussions at locations such as Talk:Waring's problem#Copy Editing and Talk:Convergent_evolution#Copy_Editing speak for themselves. Duxwing is unfamiliar with basic usage of terms in mathematics and perhaps science, and his "copyediting" of articles in these areas is counterproductive. Duxwing's lashing out at the several editors who have pointed this out to him does not change the fact.

Duxwing has done some more acceptable copyediting on less technical articles, typically in situations where he has changed a particular verbose phrase to a less wordy one (e.g. "a large number of" to "many" as was noted above). My impression is that Duxwing's copyediting may be largely based on applying a series of simplifying rules to sentence structures—the sort of thing that the Wordrake software does for lawyers. But successful copyediting can't merely employ a "find and substitute" model; a good idiomatic ear is needed to test whether the revised, shortened version of a sentence or paragraph communicates the same information as the original and in at least as straightforward a way. Too often in the case of Duxwing's copyedits it does not.

With regard to Duxwing's raising the dispute off-wiki, it is permissible to discuss a Misplaced Pages-related dispute in another forum, and no one will be sanctioned merely for doing so. However, in his off-wiki post about Dicklyon, Duxwing asks members of another forum for advice on how to get another editor who is a "sociopathic engineer" "perma-site-banned for great justice and vengeance." If I see much more of this sort of thing I will certainly suspect intentional trolling.

I believe Duxwing should be restricted for some period of time further copyediting efforts, particularly in the fields of mathematics and science. He also needs to refrain from personal attacks who make good-faith criticisms of his edits. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Dick refused to engage in BRD and then accused me of not engaging him. I have no complaints about the community's decisions, and I visited AN/I partly to seek one about my editing because I knew that AN/I reviews and passes binding judgments on everyone's behavior--hence the "settling" I mentioned in my first message to Dick, whose post was merely the straw that broke the camel's back of long-term confusion and pent-up frustration. Perhaps telling my story over the long term would help explain why I have acted how I have.

I joined Misplaced Pages about two years ago, noticing some bad grammar and correcting it. I eventually signed up and continued lonely copy-editing. Until about February I knew almost nothing about Misplaced Pages's back end, encountering only rare reversions. In February I noticed that many of my edits had been reverted and that many editors were complaining, and I had no idea of what to do about either. Ignorant, I did everything wrong: I let my ego get involved, assumed bad faith, and said a few uncivil things. I meanwhile felt very scared, insulted, and frustrated because I knew almost nothing of Misplaced Pages's conduct policy, and I per Wikipedian policy I told as few people as possible because I eventually became paranoid.

A few editors offered help, and I accepted. The help was brief or non-existent. I therefore was paranoid, frustrated, insulted, ignorant, lost, and alone. I figuratively bumbled around in the dark, trying to conclude this fiasco with what I learned was called "consensus" (see the eponymous heading in my Talk) about what my editing problems were and how to solve them. I received few, if any, replies. After visiting the IRC, I regained my courage and resumed editing, starting to enjoy it again with my collaboration of Sex Differences in Human Psychology; when editing alone, I made my best guess about what the editors wanted and tried to apply it.

Then came Dick with his harsh talk page message and rapid reversions. I could not stand this months' long uncertainty any longer: I went to AN/I to figure out what Dick was on about and get some closure on what was wrong with my posting, my peers, or my mind because this problem was keeping me up at night and making me shake. I was willing to take this extreme measure because I would feel lost without Misplaced Pages and wanted to improve it either by resolving the dispute or fixing my editing.

Figuring out exactly what I must do was foremost among my worries, which learning about and entering User Adoption has alleviated. It has the structure I need to objectively determine my knowledge and skill, and my adopter is kind and often-available. I hope never to encounter problems like this one in the future, and if I do, I hope not to need AN/I again.

With sincere apologies for my misconduct, which I am only beginning to understand Duxwing (talk) 17:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

PS If I am to be restricted from copy-editing, then how will we know when I will be able to resume copy-editing? An indefinite block from editing articles unrelated to my adoption until my competence can be determined would seem more appropriate. Duxwing (talk) 17:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Duxwing, can you explain what you mean by "he refused to engage in BRD"?? What BRD means is that if you make an edit, and someone reverts it, YOU the originator of the edit are required to then go to the article talkpage to start a discussion about the proposed edit in order to try and gain consensus for it. BRD isn't a policy - it's a guideline on prventing people from edit-warring. It does not mean that he's required to come to your talkpage to discuss it. It does not even mean that he is required to start a discussion about why he reverted - the onus is on the person who made the first edit ES&L 18:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I think you mean "... instead of re-reverting, YOU the originator...". Correct? I was complaining that he was already unwilling to Discuss. Duxwing (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I think I said exactly what I meant. I know that you complained that he was unwilling to discuss - but you fail to show a single article takpage where you opened a discussion for all editors of that page to discuss and come to consensus about your proposed changes. All you said is "he was unwilling to discuss" ... but where did you try: his talkpage? Your talkpage? Someone else's talkpage? Some off-wiki Forum? The washroom where you work? The confessional in your basilica? (Hint: all of those are the wrong place) DP 20:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

This is me refusing to discuss. Dicklyon (talk) 21:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Still, Dicklyon reverted his edits for no good reason, they were completely legit edits...... 12.251.225.250 (talk) 23:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Um, no ... consensus is quite the opposite. "Good faith", yes we think so, "legit", no. DP 23:36, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed, I don't think I ever suggested that the edits were not "legit". Just that wikipedia was improved by reverting them. I don't even claim that I couldn't have done better than reverting them; I could have, but my patience was short already, after reading his reactions on his talk page up to that time. The point that needed to driven home, that he had been rejecting already from others, was that his edits, though legit and done in good faith, were making things worse, not better. Still nobody has disagreed with this assessment, and still Duxwing has not seemed to accept that this is what the community has been telling him, sincerely and with good reason, without doubting his good faith (until recently). Dicklyon (talk) 23:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Since Duxwing says he is now in an adoption program, at this point would it be appropriate to hear from the adopter? —Neotarf (talk) 01:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

There's no particular need to prejudice his adopter by calling his attention to his mess if he hasn't already looked at it. If he has, maybe he'll advise Duxwing that an actual apology, not accompanied by excuses, but accompanied by an apology at the off-wiki forum as well, might go a long way to showing an intention to do better, and showing that he can take input. Dicklyon (talk) 03:16, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Apologizing at the off-wiki forum is certainly not necessary here. Even it that were somehow needed (and I can't imagine why), Duxwing is still unwilling to understand that linking that forum here is not "outing" him to begin with. If you tell an editor to ask any admin on the site if what you're advising them is incorrect, and they not only don't bother to ask anyone else but insist they are right, you have issues with competency, IMHO. Doc talk 07:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Doc, if, (and that is a big If) Duxwing has now understood how wrong his edits were, then he will also have realised how right Dicklyon and many others have been in their often patient comments. He should also conclude that the off-wiki post was totally wrong in so many ways that it would be endlessly boring to list them all. If the off-wiki posts were retracted and apologised for, then that would, at least, give some sense that the penny had dropped. I see no activity in this adoption process other than a single request and one edit, and edits contesting this very process are continuing, even earlier this morning here. This is all bluff and bluster but no commitment and no action. Good faith ? - sorry , for Duxwing it's blown out of the window and can only be regained by some real tangible evidence and not weasely apologies.  Velella    09:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It may not even be possible for him to remove his posts from that external site even if he wanted to. He could post some apology over there, but what's the point? Extra humiliation? He thought he was in a "safe zone" where he could say what he wanted without fear of it getting back to him. He was wrong. The next move is his, and it will hopefully be a well-considered one. Doc talk 10:18, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

And what would be the point of him leaving his vicious accusations hanging out there, instead of admitting he was in error? Dicklyon (talk) 21:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Not much and it is wrong but you can't afford to worry too much about what somebody on the web says. If they don't change then they'll just continue as they are and be banned eventually after causing more trouble and that will be the end of them. If the process was a bit faster then less editors would get pissed off in the meantime. Dmcq (talk) 22:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, it's likely impossible for him to remove his comments there even if he wanted to. He'd basically have to delete the entire thread, since others commented. I very seriously doubt that the admins over there would allow that to happen, especially for personal attacks of Misplaced Pages editors. The comments are out there for eternity, I'm sorry to say. Apologizing here for the comments is a different story entirely. Doc talk 22:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Look, each party has its own "Problem." Duxwing has been asking for suggestions for punishment outside of Misplaced Pages, and Dicklyon has been uncivil, I think that we should take action on BOTH editors as both have different issues. 12.251.225.250 (talk) 23:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Where has Dicklyon been uncivil? Haven't seen that, or seen it proven. Now Dick, you know we cannot control what happens off-wiki. Someone with a sense of remorse might apologize and/or try to remove their posts - but they'd have to recognize that they had done wrong, and it's only a "might" - we cannot force it. Who wants a forced apology anyway. Ignore the off-wiki, ignore Dux until he's had some mentoring, and let's all waddle along! DP 23:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean closing the thread as no consensus? Because if that is what you mean, Im all for it! We can just close this and keep an eye on it. Problem solved...... 12.251.225.250 (talk) 23:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Nobody even accused me of being uncivil. And the consensus here is quite clear. Who is this new IP shill muddying the waters with nonsense? Dicklyon (talk) 00:45, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Closing as "no consensus" would have no basis in the reality of the discussion. DP 23:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for having caused a ruckus with my angry forum post. Duxwing (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

@dicklyon, I am actually User:Happy Attack Dog on vacation. I am not trying to stir up trouble or murk the waters. 12.251.225.250 (talk) 01:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

There are a number of troubling things here. A number of accusations have been made against Dicklyon. None of them turned out to be true. There has be no acknowledgment of that here or on the other site. Duxwing's reaction to reverting his edits, a normal occurrence on Misplaced Pages, was to seek "great justice and vengeance" on an external website. Some kind of restriction is in very much order here, and can be reevaluated after Duxwing completes the adoption program. —Neotarf (talk) 03:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. This section began with a proposal from Newyorkbrad: "Duxwing should be restricted for some period of time (from) further copyediting efforts, particularly in the fields of mathematics and science. He also needs to refrain from personal attacks (on those) who make good-faith criticisms of his edits." I'd say that's a good starting point (although I'd prefer "copyediting" - period.), which could be reviewed as the adoption proceeds and Duxwing shows some willingness to go back and fix some of the errors he has introduced, with agreement, and building on his growing understanding during adoption. Begoon  04:55, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Neotarf, are you saying that the restriction should exist because of the "troubling things"? Duxwing (talk) 19:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

More troubling things:

• The offsite forum has now moved on to apparent death threats against Dicklyon.
• Duxwing does not seem to understand the concerns that other editors have with his edits or his actions.
• The adoption process is off to a rocky start. Duxwing has copied the adoption program into his user space, but has gone on to edit the original in his adopter's space, not his own copy. He has also started the program in the middle, skipping the unit on the five pillars. It would be better for Duxwing to finish all the units of the program, and have each exam graded by his adopter.
• The edits with math and science are the ones that have introduced the most error, but there are problems with all the edits.

If no restrictions are imposed, Dicklyon has said he does not mind checking Duxwing's edits and reverting them. Whoever closes this can decide if that is a good use of Dicklyon's time. —Neotarf (talk) 00:41, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

WRT to the adoption program, it was originally created in the Article space, not the User space, and it had to be moved. The adoption start was rocky indeed. Ca2james (talk) 02:07, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Whoa: hold up. There is no death threat against Dicklyon from Duxwing on that thread. Things that others say there, especially after he seems to have abandoned the thread, have no bearing here. Anyone who has been to one of these forums should know that you are going to meet all sorts of characters there. Doc talk 02:34, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Ohconfucius

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This concerns wholesale removal by Ohconfucius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) of flagicons from sport articles and continuing to do so despite being challenged under the terms of WP:BRD. There has been a case at Edit warring & 3RR which resulted in Ohconfucius being warned. He escaped a block because one of his four reverts was not in the same 24-hour period as the other three. The key article here is Manchester United–Arsenal brawl (1990), which was elevated to WP:GA on 7 April.

Ohconfucius edited the article 04:51 on 9 April and made his first removal of flags from the lists of players, arguing in his edit summary that "per [[MOS:FLAG - nationalities have no relevance whatsoever in this context". At 23:46 on 9 April, the edit was reverted by PeeJay who argued in the edit summary that he "completely disagrees, as it (use of flags) shows the international make-up of both teams". Thus far, everything complied with WP:BRD and Ohconfucius had made a bold edit and PeeJay, citing a valid reason for disagreement, reverted it.

At 01:44 on 10 April, Ohconfucius re-reverted and so made the first violation of WP:BRD as well as commencing an edit war for which he has subsequently been warned. At this stage, no attempt had been made to open a discussion. At 02:12 he followed up with a removal of three categories which is itself contentious though outside the BRD issue.

At 02:42 the article creator VEO15 became involved and pointed out that the article is about the full match and not just about a twenty-second brawl within the match, as Ohconfucius was arguing (this, by the way, led to a later proposal that the article should be renamed but that is a separate matter). VEO15 also restored the three categories. Immediately, at 02:45, Ohconfucius reverted both VEO15 edits.

The matter was then taken to a talk page when, at 02:51 on 10 April a discussion commenced on the WT:FOOTY talk page when Ohconfucius complained about "opposition to my attempts to eliminate MOS:FLAG violation". This received its first answer at 08:26 on 10 April when PeeJay defended the use of flags and criticised WP:MOSFLAG. The discussion then grew with several people contributing but the salient point raised is that hundreds of articles with flags already removed by a script, run by Ohconfucius, must be restored/reverted and the script modified to stop this happening, especially as the script fails to replace the graphic information with textual information. The main complaint is that Ohconfucius, having initiated the discussion on WT:FOOTY, subsequently unilaterally removed acceptable flag icons from hundreds of match and season articles, via his script. All of these articles should be reverted and use of these scripts by Ohconfucius must be stopped.

In between the 02:51 and 08:26 talk page posts, VEO15 restored the flags and categories at 05:21 and, at 07:18, Ohconfucius reverted for the third time and, having opened a discussion about the issue was now clearly in direct violation of WP:BRD which clearly states in its discuss criterion: "Do not continue to revert, which is the beginning of edit-warring. Leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made (often called the status quo ante)". Ohconfucius can have no defence against his actions in direct violation of that standard.

What has made matters worse is that, since opening the WT:FOOTY discussion at 02:51 on 10 April, Ohconfucius has continued to run his script removing flags from hundreds more sports articles: for example, the 2006 FA Cup Final. He made a fourth revert of the disputed article at 18:37 on 11 April but this was more than 24 hours after the previous one and so he was warned and not blocked when the matter went to the 3RR page.

Meanwhile, at 11:17 on 10 April a discussion commenced on the article talk page when Tony1 raised an issue about the use of flags. An argument developed there which lost its way because of Tony1's views about graphics being a distraction and eventually it has evolved into a proposal that the article should be renamed. Ohconfucius has been involved in this secondary discussion but it is really of academic interest. The main thrust of discussion has taken place at WT:FOOTY as described above.

In summary, I would contend that Ohconfucius has acted irresponsibly by continuing to revert edits and run his script in defiance of WP:BRD while a discussion about his issue is still ongoing. In addition, I recommend per several comments at WT:FOOTY that his script should be decommissioned and that all sporting articles it has edited are reverted or restored. GnGn (talk) 11:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

GnGnome alerted me to this thread. I must say I was confused already by the conflation of several themes on that page. Can this not be worked out through discussion? I'm sure Ohconfucius won't remove more flagicons while this is ongoing. Tony (talk) 11:44, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Why has this been brought here when there is a current proposal on the article's talk page to which Ohconfucius has responded, and an active discussion at a football related project page? Flat Out let's discuss it 12:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Other than flagging up how weak the GA process is, what is the merit of bringing this here while it is under discussion in two other venues? --John (talk) 12:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I think User:Flat Out and User:John need to read again what I have said above. Yes, there are discussions going on as required by WP:BRD but Ohconfucius has flagrantly edit-warred and continued to remove icons while the discussions are ongoing in direct breach of WP:BRD. Doesn't that stike you as wrong? Why does User:Tony1 hope he won't remove more while it is ongoing? GnGn (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

What I see is an editor attempting to apply policy, and then taking up the issue appropriately in the other forums. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you Ohconfucius for trying to apply MOS:FLAG. Flags and other pointless decorations are not helpful for an encyclopedic project. Johnuniq (talk) 01:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Answering Flat Out, I have no objection to Ohconfucius "attempting to apply policy" as that is the first part of WP:BRD and no objection to him commencing the discussion at WT:FOOTY or taking part in the secondary discussion as, again, that compies with BRD. The objection concerns his edit warring in violation of BRD and continuing to attempt his application of policy (as he interprets it) after the discussion on use of flags in football articles had begun. There appears to be a consensus forming here that his interpretation of "policy" is correct. So, you are effectively saying that he can ignore BRD because you agree with his interpretation of MOS:FLAG. In that case, what do the people at WT:FOOTY do given that they interpret the policy differently and they believe there has been widespread disruption to football project articles? GnGn (talk) 07:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that there was no reason to bring it this forum when is already being discussed at any forums. If you believe Ohconfucius is edit warring then take it to AN3. Flat Out let's discuss it 10:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:BRD is not a reason to ignore standard procedures, and neither is WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. There may well be a group of editors who like flags (there have been several such groups in the past), but that is still not a reason to ignore standard procedures. Johnuniq (talk) 07:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

So, is WP:BRD a redundant policy that anyone can just ignore? What is the point of having something like that on the site if it has no effect? GnGn (talk) 07:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

BRD is an essay, not policy. --John (talk) 09:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It is not policy to remove all flags. He did a heavy string of removals (100s) on tennis articles awhile back but they were systematically all reverted back with warnings at Wiki Tennis Project to treat them as instant rollbacks in the future. The bot did a lot of good things so we had to carefully dice what stayed and what went, which took hours. I really haven't seen a big problem since over there. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:02, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: I think you've missed the point of the icons in those articles. They are not simply there for decoration, they are there to provide extra information to the reader in a more efficient format than simply naming each country. Flags are universally recognised as being representative of their countries, and the ones that are easily confused (i.e. and ; or and ) can be easily looked up by clicking on the flag thanks to the functionality of {{flagicon}} providing a link to the appropriate nation's page. By all accounts, WP:ICONDECORATION is desperately outdated in that regard. – PeeJay 09:03, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What extra information do the flags carry that text alone would not? Why is the nationality of every player in a domestic match so vital? ICONDECORATION enjoys strong project-wide consensus and has done for quite a few years now. Is there a special reason that certain sport articles should be exempt from it? --John (talk) 09:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I've lost track of where each argument has been made over the course of this incident, so I can forgive you for not having noticed earlier. Nationality is an extremely pertinent issue in many professional sports (especially football), and indicating the nationality of each player in a domestic match helps the reader understand the international nature of the sport. Having just read the article on the 2009 Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup Final, which somehow managed to get to FA status without flags, I found myself desperately seeking info on the page about where each team's players came from. Without the flags, I could have easily assumed they were all American, since the game was played in the United States between two American teams. The reason flags are more appropriate than text is that icons are more efficient at conveying the information and at saving space; the aesthetics of the flags are a bonus, yes, but they are not simply there for decoration, as many people seem to be assuming. – PeeJay 09:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Is there a definition of what "nationality" means in the context you describe? In an international encyclopedia, that word is rather fluid and would mean different things to different people. What is the pertinent issue addressed by knowing a player's nationality? I'm sure some readers would be interested in knowing the religion or ethnicity of each player—why not include that? Johnuniq (talk) 10:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Religion and ethnicity have no effect on the regulations regarding which players may play in a match (and never have done), whereas nationality has been a determining and limiting factor on some teams' squads in the past. Furthermore, nationality is defined in this case as the national team for which the player is qualified to play, which is easily sourced for 99.99% of all players, while religion and ethnicity are barely sourceable for even 0.01% of players. This isn't about what readers might find "interesting", it's about providing pertinent information in as efficient a manner as possible. – PeeJay 12:49, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Religion and ethnicity have had a great impact in one of the countries which invented football, and before about 1980 there was one famous club who did not employ Catholics. I am sure there are a great many readers in certain parts of Western Scotland (and possibly elsewhere) who would find it very interesting to see which religion and ethnicity all the players were. Why would that situation be markedly different from this one? --John (talk) 14:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

That is a false analogy. Rangers almost exclusively picked Protestants, while Celtic almost exclusively picked Catholics, and by the time either side began drawing from the other side of the Christian divide, it really didn't matter. Plus, when you talk about football on a global scale, one rivalry really makes very little difference. – PeeJay 15:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Oof. Totally wrong. Read up on it. Disagree on flags too. Global consensus trumps local, especially when no coherent reasons can be given to diverge. --John (talk) 15:14, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What the two Johns say. And Ohconfucius. Global consensus etc: no amount of text in FOOTY and the tennis project, never mind the Tour de France, can change the fact that this usage of flag icons is disruptive for a reader, useless, and not in compliance with MOS:FLAG, even if typically in such discussions the MOS adherents are outnumbered by the other parties. It's ironic that in MMA, where "local" interests ruled the roost for so long, the MOS is being followed.

In most cases nationality is simply irrelevant (esp. in those club articles, and esp. since the Bosman arrest). Athletes in the Tour, in non-international soccer games, at Wimbledon, etc. are simply not representing their country in any official sense, though the heart may disagree--one of the saddest days in my life was missing the Wimbledon final when Krajicek finally won one for us, but that's emotion, not national representation. Drmies (talk) 15:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

In what way is it disruptive for the reader to use flags in this manner? If you were talking about flags breaking up the flow of prose, I could agree, but it is ridiculous to say that a flag in a sea of whitespace is disruptive. Just to quickly address the tennis point for a moment, whenever I watch Wimbledon, the players' nationalities are often clearly stated next to their names in scorelines, and the nationalities of the winners are frequently recorded for statistical purposes. The same really applies to football. – PeeJay 16:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing to prevent you setting up a fork of Misplaced Pages which uses flags in the way you suggest. On this project we have decided not to. To change this would take quite a major reconfiguration of the community's opinion, which you are also welcome to try to do. In terms of admin action, I don't think Ohconfucius should or will face any sanction as he is right and those opposing him are wrong. --John (talk) 16:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. The most important tennis websites use the flag icons and Tennis Project also found his mass removals disruptive. This was pointed out to him. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:32, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Mmm. That's a super suggestion; I suggest you take it up at WT:MOS and have the MoS amended if you can attract a consensus. Meantime, we'll continue to use the one that currently enjoys consensus. The suggestion that editing to make articles more compliant with MoS is "borderline disruptive" is borderline stupid. --John (talk) 17:40, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for the tone of my previous comment but still stand by the point I made, and those above. --John (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I will do; I suggest we all re-locate to WT:MOS. And no, my comment was not stupid - what was was suddenly blanking content from a template that a) has been in place for years and b) is in use on thousands of articles, without attempting to raise the matter somewhere first (ideally with the relevant WikiProject - we are very active), by citing a MOS that is clearly not fit-for-purpose for these kinds of articles. GiantSnowman 19:14, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Discussion started at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style/Icons#Proposed change to MOSFLAG for sport articles. GiantSnowman 19:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Giant. Drmies (talk) 23:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, this argument is going from discussing edit warring to talking about policy, any changes over policy should be taken out on the aprroprete policy page. But just to keep this on track, here are the key points:

1. Ohconfucius has been accused of Edit warring
2. Ohconfucius has been using a script to remove flags from articles, claiming he is following MoS:FLAG
3. Ohconfucius has been warned for edit warring before

12.251.225.250 (talk) 22:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Bit of a late joiner to this discussion, but I think it's probably time this was closed. BRD isn't policy. While it'd be nice for OhC to follow it, since he didn't he hit (but did not break) 3RR and was warned. The rest of this is a content issue and doesn't belong at ANI. In short: The 3RR issue was handled at 3RRN, the BRD issue is a non-starter, and the content issue does not belong here. —/Mendaliv//_Δ's/ 02:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Bigoted personal attack

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reporting highly inappropriate comment by Silvio1973 (talk · contribs):

"I still do not understand why you are so aggressive. If you were not from the Balkans I would be offended by the way you talk to others (not just to me). But looking to the last 70 years of former Yugoslavia I understand why you do not find peace. Basically, because you do not need it. Now I am busy but as soon as possible I will ask for a Move review. In the meantime Dear Direktor, take a break. Misplaced Pages is not Vukovar. Silvio1973 (talk) 11:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)"

("Vukovar" refers to the Battle of Vukovar.) The context here is Silvio1973 posting an RM on Talk:House of Gundulic, upon the failure of which he posted an RfC entitled "RfC: House of Gundulić/House of Gondola, which version of the name is more prevalent in English sources?". For the record, this isn't the first time I've had the opportunity to be enlightened by Silvio as to the inherent nature of my nationality (see the last two paragraphs here). -- Director (talk) 12:25, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any racial issues being mentioned in any of the diffs you give; Slavs and others in the Balkans are quite obviously white Europeans like the Italians. Not the most civil, but there's nothing in your diffs that warrants a civility block. If you want any kind of sanctions, you're going to need to provide more diffs of incivility. Nyttend (talk) 12:50, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Direktor, really thank you for posting this ANI. Because you have been offending me for the last 2 years and I never replied. Because I never gave enough importance to your aggressivity. Indeed even my last post is a mild reply compared to the words you used towards me many times before. And by the way, the issue is not merely between you and me, because you used similar words also with other users. However you never really offended me. I lived many years in the Balkans and I know that there people are very direct and confrontational. Unfortunately the last 70 years of their history confirms how disgraceful this can be. And mind well, that this is not a fact of racism, because being confrontational is not 'per se' a negative feature.

Now, for the benefits of the WP community let's list some of your inappropriate "comments", so everyone will understand how incredibly patient I have been so far. --Silvio1973 (talk) 12:58, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

19 February 2014 - Lets be blunt: Silvio is an Italian-nationalist POV-pusher who goes around the project searching for areas where he believes Italy has been "wronged" and then posts masses of posts in bad grammar that ignore most of Misplaced Pages's policies ("heraldry expert"?) in pushing a pro-Italian bias.

31 October 2013 - User:Silvio1973 is here only through following my edits, as a sort of petty "revenge" for my opposing his edits elsewhere. He is not here to provide a constructive position, but only to oppose my own, and you may expect that's pretty much all he's going to do (in poor English). I personally doubt he has any background understanding of the Republic of Kososo issue.

28 September 2013 - You are obviously and unfortunately unable to contribute here due to your lack of English skills. You do not posses sufficient knowledge of the language this wiki is written in. Go away please. I will not be the only moron on this project stupid enough to discuss with someone who doesn't understand me.

28 September 2013 - You are obviously and unfortunately unable to contribute here due to your lack of English skills. You do not posses sufficient knowledge of the language this wiki is written in. Go away please. I will not be the only moron on this project stupid enough to discuss with someone who doesn't understand me.

22 September 2013 - I used to think its a communication issue. But now I'm convinced you're just a nationalist POV-pusher attempting to have his way through fraudulent referencing and edit-war. You would have to be institutionalized if you did not understand: #1 non-Italian/Yugoslav sources. #2 Scholarly. #3 With page number and quote. Very simple...

Not sure we need a list. I agree with Nyttend. I don't see the racism. I don't even see it as particularly heated, just a little snippy. If we blocked for "snippy", Misplaced Pages would have less than half the articles it now has. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:01, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

@Dennis Brown, I beg your pardon but I really want to list the comments Direktor directed to me. I believe he really should take a break and this ANI could be the right occasion to make him understand that should pay more respect to the others.

I'm not here to tell you what to do, my comment was only that it wasn't needed to address the original complaint, which looks to be without merit. If you want to present a new complaint with diffs here, you are certainly welcome to. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:16, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Fellas, you've got to be kidding me. Here he is telling me I'm "aggressive" because all people from the Balkans are uncivilized barbarians, insulting whole nations - and that's "snippy"? Yes, it is racist: you and I are perfectly aware it doesn't make sense, but I think you may be missing the local political context - namely Italian fascist ideas about the "barbaric Slavic race" , very common in the far right even today. Hopefully I won't have to elaborate further on that distasteful subject.

As for the rest of Silvio1973's disruption and appalling conduct, I don't think I'll be writing up some stupid "counter-list". I posted this to hopefully put a stop to this user's ethnic personal attacks. Though it does seem the user was thinking he can insult others however he likes, and get away with it, by being ready to post a cherry-picked compilation of anything they wrote from the last five years or so. -- Director (talk) 13:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm going to have to say that this is a lot more than "snippy". Imagine, for example, that there was a dispute on Racism in the United States and one editor had posted "You are being aggressive to me, but that's understandable because you are black". I don't think anyone would dispute the racism inherent there. Clearly, Slavs aren't a "race" but there's clear bigotry involved here. Black Kite (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

agree with Black Kite. Denigrations, dismissals, or even calling out someone based on ethnicity or national origin are unacceptable. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

From reading this thread it appears that the complainant is "Slavic" and the one being complained of is Italian. Those are not two different "races" therefore it cannot be a "racist" attack and I think it is highly inappropriate to fling that word around like that.Smeat75 (talk) 13:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

You gotta be shitting us. — lfdder 13:52, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The whole point of being a "racist", is insulting people on the basis of non-existent "races". All "races" are more-or-less generally viewed as non-existent in the scientific community. Racists often do view Slavic people as some kind of inferior "race" (the irony being I'm mostly Italian and Austrian by ancestry). I will also mention that Smeat75 and I are currently involved in a discussion elsewhere, hence I feel I ought to question his impartiality.

And besides, is it really better if its "just" an ethnic personal attack? -- Director (talk) 13:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

For interest see the United Nations International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, Article 1.1

• "In this convention the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life".

Sean.hoyland - talk 14:00, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I see Silvio1973 saying that there has been a lot of aggression in the formerly Yugoslav area over the past 70 years, that is quite different from the claim that he is calling all Slavic people "uncivilized barbarians". Considering how many times I've seen comments implying Americans are gun-toting rednecks, this just seems like standard Misplaced Pages incivility that goes by unsanctioned every day. It's not great, to be sure but I come across much worse almost daily. Also, considering the comments he posted, it seems like the ethnic slights went both ways. Liz 14:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Uh.. no. What he is saying is "Balkanites are naturally aggressive so I don't take offense at your 'aggressiveness'", an #2 "People from the Balkans are naturally aggressive and do not need peace". Topped off with a condescending remark to the effect that "you must think you're fighting one of your Balkans wars" (i.e. Vukovar). And no: I never insulted Silvio1973 on the basis of his ethnicity; I'd be pretty stupid if I did, as I said - I'm mostly Italian myself.

As for Silvio's English skills - they are pretty much terrible, and his posts are borderline-unintelligible most of the time (unless he puts special effort into into it, but they devolve again pretty soon). I reserve the right to say that, esp. after damn near going crazy trying to discuss with the user . Its terrible when you have to repeat your point over and over and over again, while the other user acts like he understands you, but just continues on as if you wrote nothing. -- Director (talk) 14:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Silvio's posting most definitely is an ethnic slur and a personal attack, and frankly I am shocked to see how some outsiders here on this board are willing to excuse and downplay it. It's completely unacceptable. What makes the whole matter worse is another aspect of Silvio's behaviour: it appears that he has been disrupting that House of Gundulić talkpage with an endless single-purpose POV campaign about a renaming demand, for multiple months, in a form that has clearly gone beyond the bounds of "WP:STICK" and "WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT". That in itself is sanctionable, and I'm quite willing to apply WP:ARBMAC on it if necessary. Has he ever been formally warned about discretionary sanctions? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear Liz, there is no issue of racism here. It is regrettable that Direktor believes that here there is an issue of racism, but does not surprise me. It's so easy to reduce everything to an issue of racism. Indeed the problem is that he really think there is such issue. Mind well that a lot of tragedy had place in the Balkans in the last 70 years because problems of economical and political nature are perceived as issues of race and ethnicity.

However, I will show you with how much incivility I was treated in the last two years, so you might understand that I have been so far very patient. And about my proficiency in English, I never had an issue with anyone. Not in the real life and neither in Misplaced Pages. Again, in the last two years Direktor has been offending me all the time qualifying my English of being crappy. I am above that, but I believe I have the right to be respected. Even if my English is not good as those of a native.Silvio1973 (talk) 14:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

@Future. Yes. -- Director (talk) 14:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

@Direktor, I have been warned less times than you. And opposely to you I have never been blocked. Is it worth mentioning that you have issues with a lot of people, not just with me. Silvio1973 (talk) 14:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

@Silvio1973: Are you going to admit that it was personal attack or not? If you want to talk about blocks and warnings, you must be aware about the fact that you have 2,063 edits, DIREKTOR has over 51,000. OccultZone (Talk) 15:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

The Balkans peoples are not a race or even an ethnicity. They include Slavs, Italians, Greeks, Turks and others. IOW they are people of diverse ethnicity who live in disharmony. This is a case of projection on the part of Director. He denigrates another editor and when that editor complains he accuses him of racism. I do not think any action should be taken against Silvio, but suggest something be done to stop Director. TFD (talk) 16:48, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

TFD and I are involved in a talkpage dispute at the moment. I can't imagine why he's posting these sort of things here.. TFD, as far as I can see, the Balkans are in perfect harmony, thanks for your concern. In fact, as far as I know, the people of ex-Yugoslavia fought each-other twice in recorded history. And, uh.. no, there aren't significant Italian populations in the Balkans. -- Director (talk) 17:29, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Direktor, you are involved in issues with a lot of people. However, I hope someone will give a look to the nice comments you made me during the last two years. Really you should learn to respect the others like you want that they respect you. And yes, you are right. There is not anymore any significant Italian population in the Balkans. I am pretty aware of that. Silvio1973 (talk) 17:37, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I really think someone should read our exchanges in full (this and this are the latest installments, where Cyclopia also tried to deal with him). In my opinion (and I think this shows), Silvio1973 is neither capable nor willing to contribute to this project in any useful way: his English skills are below such as might allow him to participate. It may not seem that way from the few posts here, but 90% of the time, unless he makes a special effort - he doesn't understand the arguments presented to him, and writes posts that in turn also require a special effort to understand (if they're at all intelligible). Of course, that wouldn't be so bad, if he didn't also act as if he fully understands the language - by simply ignoring that which he doesn't quite get, and taking offense when clarification is requested. And that's just the tip of the iceberg. He regularly misquotes sources, completely ignores WP:OR and policy in general, posts ethnic insults, constantly assumes bad faith, his article contributions are barely-intelligible and require proof-reading, but he'll edit-war for them anyway, he won't "accept" when you've sourced something, he demands to modify sourced text in accordance with his POV, etc.. I could go on.. -- Director (talk) 17:52, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• This is getting spread out in too many directions, and this isn't a brawl. As for "racist", I think that is overstated, although it is obviously rude. I do see plenty of good old fashioned incivility on both sides, and looking a bit closer I can see that Silvio1973 does have a WP:DE problem starting a new move discussion less than one month after one just closed against his wishes. I just had to threaten to block another user for doing the exact same thing in an equally problematic part of the encyclopedia. That was accurately described as a WP:STICK and WP:HEAR problem. I closed that RFC, it is not been long enough since the last discussion and hammering away like that is simply disruptive. I strongly suggest Silvio drop the stick for 90 days on the name, and that both of you pull back on the incivility. Perhaps avoiding each other for a few days will help. Otherwise, Fut. Perf is correct that ARBMAC will be justified there and discretionary sanctions become an option. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Dennis Brown. I have no problem in following the suggestions coming from a more experienced user. I will wait for a while before touching again the articles in dispute. Fair point. In the meantime please appreciate I have problems only with Direktor and still I do not understand why he denigrates so much my English. Honestly, are my edits so bad to the point of being not intelligible?Silvio1973 (talk) 18:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Director, Italy controlled several coastal areas in the Balkans, such as Fiume and still controls Trieste and Gorizia. There is still a sizable Italian population in Istria. The point though is that the Balkans is not an ethnic group but a region containing many ethnic groups and is a byword for ethnic conflict. (Hence terms like "balkanization".) Of course you may be right that all that conflict is in the past. TFD (talk) 18:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Silvio, English is a funny, mangled language. If I hired someone to create a new language, and what they produced was English, I would fire them. There is so much nuance, so much variation, so many subtleties that it is an easy language to mangle or misunderstand. I can talk to Brits in English such that they have no idea what I am saying, and they can do the same to me. If your English isn't perfect, don't feel bad. The same is true for most people who speak it as a first language. Direktor is an experienced editor. He is not without his flaws (we all have flaws), and he often is a bit more blunt than he needs to be, but he is experienced. If you find you disagree, it is better to go get an outside opinion instead of pushing ahead. WP:3rd opinion is one such place, or just ask a random admin. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

None of this takes away from the fact that what Silvio said is bigoted -- it's not just 'rude'. Are you telling us you don't see that? — lfdder 19:34, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

In this discussion, there is dispute to how far the comment goes, so my singular point of view isn't as relevant as the consensus view. Administratively, my concern isn't about punishing anyone, it is about finding a way forward so similar acts are less likely to occur in the future. I think it is pretty obvious to Silvio that if those comments are repeated, he will likely be blocked on the spot. More importantly, his tone is more conciliatory, so a little WP:ROPE is warranted. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 19:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't ask you to take any administrative measure. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but don't give me this evasive crap. My impression is Silvio's slur has been made to seem more mild than it is 'cause some of us thought it important to debate the semantics of 'racism'. — lfdder 20:15, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Many Misplaced Pages editors seem to be bigoted in one way or another, or at least have simplistic models of out groups. Sometimes, like in this case, it occurs to them that their opinions matter enough to be shared with others. It's not so bad, just people talking. I'd rather deal with an honest bigot than a dishonest sociopath who hides their bigotry beneath carefully constructed language to game Misplaced Pages's rules any day of the week. It's the editors who spend their time imposing their bigoted views on Misplaced Pages content that are the real menace and they need to be brutally suppressed. That doesn't seem to be the case in this instance. Sean.hoyland - talk 20:19, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree, but that doesn't mean we don't acknowledge it for being bigoted (see also TFD's, Nyttend's and Smeat75's replies above). I've not said that he should be blocked for it or anything of the sort. — lfdder 20:24, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

You have to also understand that an insult might be more obvious to one person than another. "Redneck" is one example. To some, it is a badge of honor, to others, it is an insult. Again, my focus (including on his talk page) is to insure it doesn't happen again, whether or not I "get" the full gravity of the insult. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:28, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Dear all, I never said my comment was polite (and I did not intend being polite). It was impolite exactly like the comments Direktor directed to me before during two long years. But there was no racism, it was just a sad consideration. Said that, I find somehow surprising that I can dialogue in English with anyone in my real life and on Misplaced Pages, understanding and being understood by everyone except with Direktor. And the way Direktor talks to me (and to many other users) is not less unacceptable. And strange for someone with more than 51,000 edits. --Silvio1973 (talk) 20:39, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I went to Silvio1973's talk page to give them one last warning to stop personal attacks against me and found a link to this ANI. I would like to add that this user has made personal attacks and did not AGF numerous times in the last week or so. User behaves as an edit warrior with a battleground mentality on all things Russia and Ukraine related (see edit history on Russia, this AN3, and comments on Talk:Russia#Number_of_federal_subjects and Talk:Russia#Text now coherent with the source). So many horses have suffered in this edit war. Frankly I'd like to see a topic ban. EvergreenFir (talk) 02:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Seriously? This discussion is about Battle of Vukovar. Uninvolved editors with an axe to grind who have been warned in unrelated Russian/Ukrainian topics asking for a topic ban? Which topic exactly? USchick (talk) 03:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

From Russia/Ukraine stuff, but I know it's a pipe dream. I was warned for 4 edits in 48 hours. Never warned for personal attacks, which is what the issue is here. I linked the AN3 because it contains a personal attack (again). My "axe to grind" is about Silvio's behavior. USchick, you are not assuming good faith. We've butted heads in the past, but have always been able to resolve things civilly and for that I respect you. But Silvio seems to be unable to let an opportunity to make a dig at me slide and I'm getting sick of it. That's why I commented here. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:23, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

If you have an unrelated disagreement somewhere else and you're "getting sick of it," is it good faith to come here and Misplaced Pages:PILEON and throw the kitchen sink at an editor simply because you don't like him? You're asking for a ban on unrelated topics and then you claim to be the victim. That doesn't reflect very well on your behavior. USchick (talk) 05:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This is going to far. And this is not the place to solve the issues that other people have for other reasons. EvergreenFir, please be aware that you posted a 3RR report and the endehaviour was that we are both warned to be blocked. Concerning the discussion we had, you could aknowledge that in the end I proposed a solution acceptable for the both of us.

EvergreenFir, I have currently a problem with Direktor but I am not participating in any of the ANI's involving him if I was not involved. So if you have a problem with me feel free to report me, but use some common sense; the last time you did it you were warned of being blocked, Have a great sunday EvergreenFir. Silvio1973 (talk) 07:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Not surprisingly some people have been concerned with my behaviour and told me that I might be blocked. The issue is that Direktor speaks to the others very badly but takes any comment directed to him extremely serious. However, I might seriously report him in a few days. The issue is that I am not experienced enough to know if there are the conditions to report him. The only thing I know is that he treats me like shit and I do not like it. However, the next time he will bluntly and boldly make a comment about my proficiency in English or about my alleged political orientations I will report him. Because I also have a dignity and Direktor has been litterally walking on it for the last two years. --Silvio1973 (talk) 13:26, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This is a thread discussing your conduct. Its precisely the place to bring up other personal attacks. There's a difference between being not-entirely-polite after months of fraudulent referencing and language issues, and posting bigoted, condescending, arguably even racist attacks based on nationality and ethnic group. Or indeed, insulting whole ethnic groups based on offensive stereotyping you seem to sign-up to.

And I'd like to request the crew from the above discussion (Smeat, USchick, TFD) kindly refrain from carrying over grudges to completely unrelated threads. The point of this is ultimately to invite uninvolved (admin) input. -- Director (talk) 00:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

But it isn't WP:RFC/U. Enough points have been made that now I question if we are just beating a dead horse. He's admitted the comment was rude, he has been warned, perhaps you need to drop the stick and see if if the lessons stick. Otherwise, you are making the situation worse. This can probably be closed without further action, as we've had enough drive by comments and poking. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:31, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, dropping it. -- Director (talk) 00:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Schily's personal attacks and biased editing on Cdrtools and other UNIX topics

Schily (talk · contribs) (Jörg Schilling) is the author of cdrtools, a collection of tools for interacting with disk drives. He was recently blocked for edit warring, POV editing, and personal attacks by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) after this AN3 discussion. After the conclusion of his block, he returned to Talk:cdrtools and made statements I think fall on the wrong side of BLP, such as:

t seems that you are just missinformed by anti-OSS people like Eduard Bloch In September 2004 Linus Torvalds introduced a fatal Linux kernel SCSI interface incompatibility while claiming to fix a security bug.
— User:Schily 10:09, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Bastardized variants are created by people that have more self-confidence than knowledge The SuSE programmer that discovered how to send file descriptory via sockets in 2001 and believed to be a security expert for this knowledge.  : The Debian packetizer Eduard Bloch that discovered how to call make in 2004 and then believed to be a C and SCSI expert with more knowledge than the authors of cdrtools. He managed to add aprox. 100 own bugs within a year and wins a price for the best long term support in preserving bugs over 10 years.
— User:Schily 19:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether these remarks fall far enough outside WP:BLP that they need to be struck, but they most certainly seem to be a continuance of the original problematic behaviours for which the editor was originally blocked. I do not believe he is able to contribute to this topic productively. For that matter, his contributions show a history of edit warring and POV-pushing, dating back to (at least) 2010, see User_talk:Schily#Bourne_shell_section_on_criticism, User_talk:Schily#Edit_war, User_talk:Schily#March_2012, and other examples later on the talk page.

Disclaimer: I am involved in Debian as a volunteer developer (and am also involved in the Ubuntu distribution). While I am on the team that reviews new packages for inclusion into Debian, I do not believe I have interacted with Schilling's software in this capacity. I also made some edits to the article to clean it up. LFaraone 16:20, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Per policy, BLP applies to talk pages. However, practically speaking, a little more leeway is given editors to say negative things on talk pages than they do in articles (who is Eduard Bloch?). What troubles me most about Schily is his obvious conflict. Some article subjects can simply not edit their own articles without creating problems. However, they can at least offer useful suggestions on the talk pages. Some authors, though, even if they restrict themselves to the talk page, which Schily hasn't done (although he has since his block expired), they are disruptive. I believe that Schily falls into that category. Although I know this isn't a blatant legal threat, another disturbing comment Schily made on the talk page is:

Note that soneone who likes to express his doubt on the legallity on the other side needs to present a valid legal reasoning. If he is not able to present such a reasoning, his clains must be seen as no more than libel and slander. This may look unbalanced, but sorry - this are the legal rules from law. A laywer that discloses internals from a client will go into prison for 1-2 years, depending on whether the disclosure was made in order to harm his client or not. A company that asked their lawyers and ships cdrtools verifies that there is no risk. A company that does not ship cdrtools does not verify anything. ()

Mentioning libel, slander, and prison all in the same post is inherently problematic. Schily has a total of 581 edits (284 to articles and 244 to article talk pages) since he started editing using this account in 2006. 47 edits have been to cdrtools. 69 have been to the talk page. Most of his other edits have been to related articles, e.g. Cdrkit. At a minimum, I would suggest a topic ban for cdrtools and its talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:45, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the recent block for me: I am not sure why this happened, but the pretended reason (personal attacks) was not true. I did critizise a user because he intentionally added false claims to an article. This was of course not an attack against his person but critics against his behavior. Critizising someone for what he did is something different than attacking him for his person and needed if you notice that this person is intentionally adding false claims.

I am not sure what you like to achive overall, but maybe you can help me to improve the cdrtools article. The article is currently full of personal attacks (false claims about me) and attacks against the cdrtools project. The people that added the attacks and unbalanced or false claims mostly have a direct connection to Debian - note that Eduard Bloch from Debian started attacks against the cdrtools project in 2004 after he has been unhappy that a patch from him against cdrtools was rejected by me because it had only bugs and no usable benefits to the project. His modifying activity on the copy of the cdrtools sources at Debian resulted in aprox. 100 Bug reports in the debian bug tracking system. The problem with the unbalanced claims in the article is that they are usually tagged with pointers to quotes that do not prove the claims, but they may look as if they did on the first view. The most problematic editor in this context was User:Chire. Without his edits, I am sure that the other editors could agree on something that is fact based. User:Chire seems to be on a crusade against cdrtools since 2010 as he shows similar activity against the cdrtools project at different places. In discussions, he repeats his claims many times even after his claims have been proven false. I am not sure how this is in the US, but in Germany you can get sued if you publish claims you cannot prove against a person. Please note that User:LFaraone who started this thread recently started to edit the cdrtools article and introduced unbalanced claims and modified text so that the new text is less balanced than it has been before.

If you don't care about the correctness of Wikpedia articles or if you like to allow people to use wikipedia as a platform for propaganda against OSS projects like cdrtools, it may be the best if I stop trying to help wikipedia. If you however care about what is in the articles, I like to get help and advise on how to deal with people that are poison to discussions and advise on how to get to balanced articles even if there are editors that try to prevent balanced articles.

Are you interested in balanced articles and can you help me to achieve this? Schily (talk) 23:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Again, you come very close to a legal threat (Germany and lawsuits), and you attack two editors. Given your attitude and approach, your idea of no longer editing at Misplaced Pages is a good one. It will certain save us the effort of having to block and/or ban you.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:47, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Please try to understand what really happed, you then will see that I am the victim and not the attacker. Schily (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

"I will sue you!" is a legal threat. Saying "lawyer" threes time is not. NE Ent 02:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, NE Ent, wikilawyering about legal threats. How appropriate. I never said Schily made legal theats. I said he came close, and he did. How many lawyers does it take to initiate a lawsuit? None.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:36, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It seems that you missinterpret the text. I did never say "I will sue you". I did however explain why a lawyer is not allowed to say anything about a specific case because Chire in former times wanted to have detailed information about three legal advises from three independend group of lawyers that happened in the past and that caused Sun, Oracle and SuSE to publish cdrtools. This proves that there are a lot of false claims in the licensing section of the cdrtools article - if the claims in that section would be correct, no distribution could risk to ship cdrtools. Schily (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I can attest that Schily is right about this point. The paragraph at hand was not a call to involve lawyers in the edit process, but an explanation of why Schily thought the section described was inaccurate and its sources unreliable - he was describing the references, not the edits. IMO his interpretation is wrong, but its intention with the paragraph that Bbb23 has copied above was in no way close to making legal threats against Misplaced Pages editors. Diego (talk) 12:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Saying "an editor inserted false information" is a comment about their behavior. Saying "an editor intentionally inserted false information" is a personal attack. See the difference? We do want, as best we can, correct information in the encyclopedia. Because we're amateurs, the way we try to do this is respectfully and collaboratively work with others to find reliable sources to determine what to put im. Disparaging others doesn't work well in the long term, so you'll get blocked again if you keep that up. NE Ent 02:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

How would you call it if someone inserted false information and after he has been proven to be false, repeatedly inserts the same false information again and again? BTW: you may like to look a bit down and will see again false claims against me, I did give away cdrecord-ProDVD for free (when it was closed source because of an NDA) and I made cdrecord-ProDVD OpenSource after that NDA did no longer apply.

But the question still stands: how do we get the false claims and unbalanced wordings out off the cdrtools article when a group of people is adding more and more of them? How can we deal with unrelaiable sources that are used by this group of people, when you need to dig to verify that these sorces are just copies from one initial false source? Schily (talk) 11:50, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Schily, I have pointed out repeatedly how you could get to balance the article, but you're not listening. It is of no use that you go on describing in the talk page why you think the claim should be removed; any information that you write at Misplaced Pages itself is useless for the article because of the No Original Research rule. If you think some claim in the article is false or inaccurate, you need to give us a URL to an external site that explains how the claim is wrong.

If the URL points to a reliable source, this can have two different effects on the article, depending on the claim. It can show that the source used to support the first claim is not reliable, in which case we would remove it. Or it can show that there are two different and opposing views on what happened, in which case we would describe both, as a counter-balance for the original claim. There's no guarantee that all the claims that you think are false will be removed, sorry; Misplaced Pages simply isn't written that way. But you could use your knowledge about the history of the cdrtools project to points us toward places that document it, and that we could use to improve the article. Diego (talk) 12:53, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Schily, your habit of personally attacking people, often for things they may or may not have done 10+ years ago is really a bad trait. You should stop this, in particular on Misplaced Pages. Also your notion of "fact" and "neutral" diverges from Wikipedias, unfortunately. Misplaced Pages tries to document reliable sources; you try to insert your personal opinion (and call this "balanced").

I tried to research the whole quarrel, to find some reliable sources. None of them are worth citing in an encyclopedia, though. What I could find is actually E. B. openly defending you: "he is still the upstream and author of good software products. And he wrote code for Unix systems when some of us were in kindergarten." as well as "Pissing of the upstream by making changes without telling him is not a good way go to." . Stop making personal attacks. Your behaviour is really inappropriate. --Chire (talk) 07:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The root of the problem is that the article isn't adequately sourced. I see only two RS, which don't mention cdrtools at all but talk about OSS licensing in general. The rest are primary sources and a few blogs/user created content sites. Almost all of this is about the internal controversy and doesn't even firmly establish the notability of the software. A lot of excessive detail about a software that is becomming increasingly obsolete (what is a CD-ROM? :) This isn't encyclopedic at all, but a playground for internal quarrels. 80.132.79.144 (talk) 12:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Schily has gone back to editing the article with this choice edit. Note the reference he provided: "Cdrskin does not support UDF and thus cannot edit hybrid images that include an UDF filesystem". I had no idea we could reference material in that way. I again support a ban, at least an article ban, but preferably a ban that includes other related articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:13, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Could you please explain why you believe that it is OK when Tzafrir adds unbalanded text but it is not OK when Schily tries to correct the text to be more balanced by adding a 100% correct statement?

Could you please explain why it seems to be bad to name persons with their real name in WP but LFaraone does not get a warning when this user adds a real name in his text? Schily (talk) 10:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Bbb23, the latest edit from Schily just corrects a tiny partially false claim (see the end of this diff). Schily's edit was the first one since his recent 72h block, and there has not been any official ban for him. Schily has already started with a more collaborative approach, as most of his recent edits are now on the Talk page. I'm sure Diego would agree with an unofficial-only article ban for Schily, which would mean that any controversal edit from him, once reported, would turn the unofficial article ban into an official article ban. In other words, I don't think it would be fair to decide an article ban because of an non-controversal edit. Thanks. Ekkt0r (talk) 12:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Can someone explain to me something? If Schily is the actual author of the software tools, why in <insert deity>'s name is he editing the article about those tools? This is the perfect example of why WP:COI editing is bad, very bad. As the author of the tools, he has an obvious deep personal and professional desire to see both him and the tools protrayed in the best light possible. As such, by nature, he will take great personal offence to anything that appears negative of contrary. The results of the addition of negative/contrary material - as required to maintain an overall neutral point of view are being met with personal attacks and anger. Where the hell are basic ethics from this editor? Schily needs to a) stop editing ANY article where he has direct COI (even the talkpages, considering their abusive behaviour), and b) not edit any related articles or the articles on similar or competing products. Hell, he shouldn't even read the articles. So, I suppose this means I support some extensive topic ban ES&L 11:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I agree with you, EatsShootsAndLeaves. Frankly, I wish the rule against editing when you have a conflict were more restrictive than it is. That said and in response to others who seem to see nothing wrong with his edits because he's the only one who knows everything, there's nothing to prevent him from suggesting all of his changes on the article talk page. I might also add that material here must be noteworthy and reliably sourced. If Schily knows something that either only he knows or can only be sourced to him, it probably isn't noteworthy and it certainly doesn't comply with policy.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:30, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• If you like to solve a problem, you need to find a solution for the cause of the problem. It does not help to have a discussion about results. Currently, the edits with the highest conflict potential are from User:Chire. If this person would stop adding text with a high conflict potential directly to the article and if other people that have a COI would ask on the talk page first, things could be much easier. I have no problem to step away (in fact I did for more than a year already) if there would be no false claims in the article. Unfortunately, we currently have a lot of unaceptable text in the article already, so it does not help to decide on rules for the future only. Schily (talk) 09:51, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Here's the problem Schily, where do these "false claims" come from? Are they "false claims" that have been reported in mainstream press or appropriate publications? If yes, then your beef if NOT with Misplaced Pages and its editors, it's with whatever press sources made those reports. So, because they meet the WP:RS test, AND WP:CONSENSUS is that they remain in the article, then guess what...they remain in the article. If you don't like it, don't get pissed off and attack Misplaced Pages editors for following the process. Honestly, when it comes to a reliable source vs personal knowledge, the RS is always going to win on Misplaced Pages. Adding sourced information to an article is not a personal attack on you, so you have no authority to attack the people who add it. Are there unflattering news articles about you? Yup. Live with it (and based on your behaviour on Misplaced Pages at times, I wouldn't be surprised that such articles exist) or get it fixed at the source. ES&L 10:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I have no problems with false claims that are tagged as false claims as this helps readers to understand the background. I do have a problem if someone adds a false claim, tags it with an unreliable source and tries to cause the impression this is a correct claim. Misplaced Pages is not a platform to support various people to publish their personal opinion. AFAIR, wikipedia intends to be something like an encyclopedia, so let us try to make sure this goal can be achieved. Schily (talk) 13:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

There is plenty media coverage i.e. reliable sources on licensing doubts for cdrecord. For examples the LWN.net articles ; as well as the fedora-legal mailing list , which says: "The CDDL has been reviewed by multiple organizations, including the FSF and Red Hat Legal, and they agree in the assessment that dependent combinations of CDDL and GPL code result in an incompatible work." For us at Misplaced Pages, we have sufficient reliable sources that this is the official reason (it does ot need be true) why the major Linux distributions do not ship cdrtools. Stopping to ship a software does too proof that these organization have doubt on the licensing situation. Misplaced Pages, we only document that this opinion exists. Unfortunately, this is a point that Schily still refuses to accept: we make statements about notable statements -what people say, not what is "true". When necessary, we write who says so, but often we just link the sources. Because there is no true. Also mathematics is making only assumptions (axioms), we do not know anything, but only believe math is correct for reality. For wikipedia, there is no "true" or "false": There are only statements not supported by reliable sources. There can be reliable sources that show someone believes something is true, or believes it is false. Schily, please provide reliable sources, not unsourced footnotes and insults. (Speaking of insults, here is a subtle one by Linus Torvalds himself: "Involving Joerg in it just makes you go crazy. Don't bother." ) --188.98.221.69 (talk) 22:19, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I would like that Schily helped in crafting an accurate history of the cdrtools project, which played a significant part in the ability to play DVDs on open source OSs; he may be the only person with a comprehensive knowledge of the various disagreements and forks the software suffered during its life. Conflict of interest is not a ban on editing articles by involved editors, it's a ban on problematic edits - of which I agree Schily has plenty. I have warned Schily that I will denounce any edit he makes to the article to the COI noticeboard, but I would still like to see him collaborating, provided we can make him understand that he must assume good faith and that any edit he disagrees with is not a personal attack. Diego (talk) 13:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Such an history is outside of the scope of Misplaced Pages - detailed cdrtools history is probably not that relevant, is it? It would give undue weight to document this in detail on Misplaced Pages. IMHO, the article should only cover enough to explain why cdrtools is still not present in many distributions. But User:Schily could publish his opinion on the cdrecord homepage, and we could easily reference it as a primary source for those readers interested in his view. This would be a clean way to avoid WP:COI as well as WP:OR. From a Misplaced Pages point of view, a balanced view is just mentioning all stakeholders, and referencing them; not deciding who is right or wrong. --Chire (talk) 16:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

If it turns out that the boycott of cdrtools by Debian was decided for bad reasons, then the story of the conflict will not be a "detail" at all; it will need to be in the article (with references to reliable sources, of course). Ekkt0r (talk) 06:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Since May 2004, a group of Debian related people is attacking cdrtools. If you check recent edits, you will notice that many of the recent edits have been done by people with a Debian background. These people have a real conflict of interest and several of the edits from these people have been made in order to harm the cdrtools project. Other edits could be at least seen as unbalanced. If these unbalanced or false claims would not happen, there was of course no need for me to correct them. So why are these people with Debian background continuing to add false or unbalanced claims to the article? Please note that I was the first to make the proposal to remove all the tainted text and to start from scratch on the talk page. I even made more than one proposal for a starter text. Unfortunately, the Debian related people with a conflict of interest continue to add new text that was not previously agreed on at the talk page. My question still stands: how to we achieve to get an unbiased article while there are several people with a conflict of interest that constantly add false or biased claims? Schily (talk) 14:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Two wrongs do not make a right. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but I cannot see how this reply could be an answer on my question. Schily (talk) 09:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oh fuck off with the proclamations. Every time I come here, either you or Bbb23 (or both, as it happens) will be making things worse. If putting people in their place is what you like to do, why don't you do it in the workplace or something? — lfdder 11:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

As 80.132.79.144 correctly pointed out, the root cause of the issue is the sourcing / notability of the article itself is very thin -- the subject matter is a component of an operating system and we don't have articles on every device driver etc. I'm neither an inclusionist nor a deletionist (I'm a dontcareist), but the lack of significant secondary sources mean that third party editors are unlikely to be able to help resolve the disputes at hand based on sourcing. So my thought is the author(s) of the article learn to work cooperatively or we simply delete the article (through the WP:AFD process, of course). NE Ent 10:45, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Repeated personal attacks and reverting of edits without addressing in Talk to gain consensus

Coretheapple has made repeated personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses throughout Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Need for any additional details in this Bridgegate scandal article about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken Sandy relief aid, while making changes to Fort Lee lane closure scandal that are in contradiction to previous Talk discussions.

It was agreed at Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Complaints about media coverage & Neutrality & Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal/Archive 1#Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion that details of Zimmer allegations would be included in Governorship of Chris Christie#Hoboken relief funds investigation. This was agreed to even though it was acknowledged that the two separate scandals would be investigated by the same state and federal authorities, and other organizations.

It was just addressed again in Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Legal representation chart in which Coretheapple raised the issue of whether details of Zimmer allegations should be added. I reminded everyone that Zimmer allegations should be contained within the other article. Coretheapple made no further comments about a statement for inclusion in the Fort Lee article that reached consensus between JackGavin and myself with no reference to Zimmer and a link to the "Governorship of Chris Christie" section.

Instead, Coretheapple went into the Fort Lee article and started adding detail about Zimmer allegations.

I opened up Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Need for any additional details in this Bridgegate scandal article about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken Sandy relief aid to address content based on Coretheapple's addition of details about Zimmer allegations.

Coretheapple responded with the same points they made in a variety of Talk discussions that did not accept those arguments. I addressed each and every point that Coretheapple made about adding more content about Zimmer allegations and explained why they were not needed and that it contradicted consensus reached in past Talk discussions. Coretheapple began to make personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses.

Coretheapple's latest personal attacks and denigrating comments against me in their Talk discussions included their entries of "wall-o-text", "rantings", "insane", "utterly beside the point", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting" and "hooting and hollering", as well as "blah blah/ comment" and "blah blah/reply" in their History of edit comments.

I repeatedly requested Coretheapple in that Talk discussion and my recent History edit comments, (i.e. and ) to address their arguments in Talk about content additions for details about Zimmer allegations. Instead, Coertheapple either ignored my Talk requests and History edit comments or made more personal attacks on the Talk discussion page, and then continued to add details about Zimmer allegations (see and ).

Instead of complying with my requests to address content, Coretheapple has continued with personal attacks on the Fort Lee Talk discussions and History edit comments in the Fort Lee article.

As clearly shown in Additional details for Zimmer allegations, Coretheapple is in violation of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Civility, Misplaced Pages:Etiquette, Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Misplaced Pages:Edit warring, and Misplaced Pages:Consensus, as they did not reach any consensus and ignored and contradicted consensus reached in past discussions in complaints, Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion, and content issues about Zimmer allegations that I previously cited above.

I have tried to work with Coretheapple in accordance with Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle and Misplaced Pages:Consensus based on Coretheapple's bold additions for additional Zimmer details.

Based on evidence of Coretheapple's unacceptable and disruptive edits in contradiction to consensus reached at past Talk discussions and their objectionable personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses or edits, I ask that Coretheapple be temporarily blocked since I have made every effort to try and work with Coretheapple based on content issues. Hopefully, Coretheapple will learn their lesson and work with me in the future. Wondering55 (talk) 16:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

• Just for the record, I have found Wondering55 to be one of the most difficult people when it comes to a) working with others and b) taking advice. Astronomically difficult. As an admin, I've just had shake my head and say "WTF" quietly to myself many times DP 17:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

For the record, rather than address the facts that I present for this particular case, DP has mis-characterized my past efforts and clearly good faith efforts for this particular case, and continues to make negative assumptions about me in contradiction to Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith. When a Misplaced Pages administrator has to refer to another person's good faith efforts, as demonstrated in this specific case, as "WTF", rather than address the specific facts and actions by another editor with clear evidence of personal attacks against me and my comments that appears to violate multiple Misplaced Pages guidelines that I presented, there is something seriously wrong. Wondering55 (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Ohhh, you're right ... something is seriously wrong. Remember, when you file at ANI, your own behaviour will come under the microscope as well DP 18:33, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I welcome review of my behavior for this particular instance and these particular facts. To try and confuse the issues with a debate on other past issues would be disingenuous and very time consuming. So far, I have not seen any constructive, neutral points of view about the facts of this particular situation. Wondering55 (talk) 19:23, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Based on my Talk comment of "Let's be reasonable" and my subsequent editing to give Corethapple practically all of their requested revisions with only one brief mention of Zimmer's name, Coretheapple goes in and adds more details about the allegations and puts back Zimmer comments about the investigation into her allegations, none of which were agreed to in the Talk.

Coretheapple's changes below were removed since they were not made in accordance with WP:BRD, as clearly shown in the Talk discussion. Coretheapple was requested to go back to Talk to address these issues based on .

; ;

Coretheapple ignored this request and put back details below into the article.

;

When those changes were reverted by me with another request to go Talk, Coretheapple simply reverted the changes and claimed that their revert details "are explained on the talk page" without indicating that the explanations, which were contrary to all past Talk discussions in several Talk topics, were not accepted on the Talk page.

In essence, Coretheapple reverted previously agreed to modifications three times within a day's time without addressing or gaining any consensus, as requested in my History edit comments and Talk. This does not even include Coretheapple's other previous edits regarding the addition of details about Zimmer allegations that were not in accordance with past Talk discussions with other editors and Additional details for Zimmer allegations. Wondering55 (talk) 20:53, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Just from an uninvolved editor's perspective, not many people will want read through all this text and weigh the merits of your complaint. Can you boil it down to two paragraphs and 3 diffs that best illustrate the point you are making? I'm only saying this because I assume you want editors to respond to your posting here and you're demanding a lot of attention from them. Liz 23:49, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

In Additional details about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken Sandy relief aid, Coretheapple's repeated personal attacks and denigrating comments against me and my responses culminated in their final inaccurate and denigrating insults of "wall-o-text", "rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped", "utterly beside the point", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting" and "hooting and hollering", as well as "blah blah/ comment" and "blah blah/reply" in their History of Talk edit comments, as shown below.

](April 12 13:34 - 14:09)

Those comments were made in response to my previous Talk discussion where I indicated "Let's be reasonable" on April 9 that was followed by my April 12 response below, which included "In a spirit of cooperation, I updated article to show the statement below, which incorporates all of Corethepple's revisions with a brief mention of Zimmer."

April 12 4:01)

Other examples:

(My April 9 15:36 response to previous personal attack about my comments as "insane" and "blah/blah reply")

(My April 9 16:54 response to previous personal attack of my comments as "blah/blah fix")

I had repeatedly stated in that Talk that further details, which were removed, about Zimmer belong in Governorship of Chris Christie#Hoboken relief funds investigation as per consensus in past Talk discussions:

• Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal/Archive 1#Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion General consensus shown between February 12 and February 21, 2014

• Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Complaints about media coverage & Neutrality { See (February 16 00:08) }

• Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal#Legal representation chart { Starting at line 514 in (April 7 15:28 to 17:06) } Coretheapple was told by JackGavin and me that details about Zimmer allegations belong in Governorship of Chris Christie#Hoboken relief funds investigation. Coretheapple made no objections.

Coretheapple continued to make changes to the article in contradiction to those Talk discussions.

Coretheapple's changes for adding more Zimmer details were reverted in accordance with Bold Revert and Discuss with a request to address their proposal in Talk to see if they could gain any consensus for adding details. Instead, Coretheapple simply reverted these changes on three separate occasions within a days time between April 11 & 12 (if needed, see my previous response at 20:53, 12 April 2014 for diff examples) and put back all of the Zimmer details without any further Talk discussion.

I responded in Talk that Coretheapple's actions were in contradiction to Misplaced Pages guidelines for Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Misplaced Pages:Edit warring, and Misplaced Pages:Consensus and that Coretheapple's final retort contained so many personal attacks against me and my comments. They violated Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Civility and Misplaced Pages:Etiquette.

The changes made by Coretheapple for adding details about Zimmer allegations in contradiction to past Talk discussion and no consensus for including them based on the latest Talk should be revised.

I ask that Coretheapple be temporarily blocked since I have made every effort to try and work with Coretheapple based on content issues rather than any personal attacks or denigrating comments like Coretheapple has made. Hopefully, Coretheapple will learn their lesson and work with me in the future. Wondering55 (talk) 06:38, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Well done. Asked to "boil it down to 2 paragraphs and 3 diff's" and we get a wall-o-text. Helpful indeed, and indicative of behaviour so far DP 10:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

More denigrating comments and personal attacks by DP rather than focusing on the facts. DP continues to question my good faith efforts and behavior in contradiction to Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith and Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. For some reason, DP has a very biased view of me. That is not right, particular by a Misplaced Pages administrator.

It should be clearly seen that my updated presentation makes it much easier to focus on the facts. DP's unnecessary claims of wall-o-text is clearly contradicted by that guideline that addresses "overly long unformatted statements". My clearly outlined and focused presentation with very short paragraphs is in accordance with the guideline's recommendation to "distill one's thoughts into bite size pieces."

As per the very constructive request, the first 2 paragraphs clearly highlighted the overwhelming amount of personal attacks and denigrating comments by Coretheapple and my efforts for conciliation and compromise that were rejected by Coretheapple, along with 4 diffs that clearly support my position. That is all the administrators need to focus on regarding my request to block Coretheapple based on their personal attacks.

As requested, I provided the diff's for 3 long past Talk discussions, so that administrators could quickly see past consensus that contradicted Coretheapple's proposal to add details about Zimmer's allegations into Fort Lee lane closure scandal rather than include those details in Hoboken relief funds investigation. Coretheapple was previously requested to comply with this consensus in one of these referenced Talk discussions, without any objections by Coretheapple.

I also referenced 3 Fort Lee article diffs to show how Coretheapple repeatedly added details about Zimmer allegations without discussing or gaining consensus in Talk in violation of Misplaced Pages:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, Misplaced Pages:Edit warring, and Misplaced Pages:Consensus.

The facts are clear and my updated presentation focuses on the key information with very clear diffs that should make it much easier for a constructive and fair review by Misplaced Pages administrators.

While not as blatant, Coretheapple is continuing to make condescending remarks about my behavior and editing, rather than neutral constructive comments. Wondering55 (talk) 15:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• The above Mt. Everest of text concerns approx. 15 words in the article, and my efforts to lure this editor into a discussion of the merits have been met by the kind of tactics that we see here. Wondering55 is especially emotive on this because he was blocked for edit warring based on a complaint I brought a few days ago, during the course of which his access to his own talk page was blocked. I am almost literally out the door for a few days and cannot respond further, but I am sure that Wondering55 will have plenty more to say on the "consensus" that did not exist and the terrible "personal attacks" to which I have subjected him, most recently concerning some comments concerning overuse of the word "indicate" in the article which didn't involve him at all and were not directed to him or any editor. I am not the first editor who has had this kind of encounter with Wondering55, and I am sure that I won't be the last. Coretheapple (talk) 16:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Once again, rather than focus on the facts of this particular situation, Coretheapple continues with their inaccurate denigrating comments of "Mt. Everest of text", my supposed "tactics", which incorrectly implies bad faith on my part, and "especially emotive", and brings up totally unrelated incidents to this particular situation, which stands on its own merits. The diffs for the 3 past Talk discussions that I provided clearly show the "consensus" of editors that Coretheapple has repeatedly ignored. Coretheapple's personal attacks are very clear in the first diff that I provided in my updated presentation (06:38, 13 April 2014). I am not even sure why Coretheapple even raised the issue of the overuse of the word "indicated" in the article since I never thought or indicated anywhere in this Talk or the Fort Lee article Talk that Coretheapple's comments were personally directed at me. I have not brought up any other past questionable behavior by Coretheapple since I wanted to focus on the clear facts of this situation where Coretheapple has made personal attacks and inaccurate/inappropriate denigrating comments against me and my editing.

There have been close to 200 editors in the Fort Lee article. Coretheapple has been the only editor to continually ask for additional details about Zimmer's allegations about Hurricane Sandy relief for Hoboken that is separate from the Fort Lee lane closure scandal. All other editors agreed that those details, with a link to that other article, belong in Hoboken relief funds investigation, along with many other scandals that have been publicized as people have looked into other aspects of the Christie administration. Wondering55 (talk) 18:20, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Coretheapple had added around 55 words (fifty-five) about Zimmer and her allegations in the article in their past edits in contradiction to consensus and Talk discussions. Coretheapple's final edit has added 41 words to the article. All other editors were satisfied with no additional words about Zimmer and her allegations beyond a link to Hoboken relief funds investigation. Wondering55 (talk) 20:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hmmm. Am I the only one thinking that the WMF server and bandwidth bill doesn't need this user? Guy (Help!) 7:03 pm, Today (UTC−4)
  • No, Guy, I'm another. Of course the most precious commodity the user is squandering isn't server space but the attention and energy of other volunteers. Bishonen | talk 07:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

My updated request at 06:38, 13 April 2014 has 440 words, not including links to the diffs or Talk pages. It is in line with requests below that were answered without discussions about their length.

Disruption and malicious editing – 502 words

Brews_ohare, Snowded and others – 490 words

Disruption and malicious editing – 401 words

User:Ohconfucius – 781 words

First 2 paragraphs, which only have 160 words, highlighted personal attacks and denigrating comments by Coretheapple and my efforts for conciliation and compromise that were rejected by Coretheapple, along with 4 diffs that support my position. That is not time consuming in order to focus on my request to block Coretheapple based on their attacks and comments.

Remainder of request addresses Coretheapple's violations of BRD, Edit warring, and Consensus that led to these attacks and denigrating comments, instead of focusing on content, as I requested. I suggested that Coretheapple's edits, which added between 41 to 55 words to the Fort Lee scandal article should be undone since there was no consensus and their revisions contradicted agreements and consensus in 3 past Talk discussions in which there were to be no words about these allegations, beyond a link to Hoboken relief funds investigation.

I would appreciate the courtesy of a review based on the facts that I have presented in my request at 06:38, 13 April 2014 that is within the length of other requests that were addressed. Thanks for your consideration. Wondering55 (talk) 18:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

As an uninvolved Admin, I took a look not only at the section of the Talk:Fort Lee lane closure scandal indicated, but at a random selection of other edits on the article page, & exchanges on the talk page. I could find no explicitly stated "consensus" there. My opinion, however, is that Wondering55 does respond to comments by others with impenetrable slabs of text. Stating an obvious fact is not a personal attack; truth is always a defense against libel. I also would like to point out Coretheapple's last response to Wondering55 included the passage: "If you want to engage in a discussion of the merits of adding 15 words to the text I'll talk about it with you. But if it's more personal attacks on me, more wall-o-text wikilawyering and boldface ranting and hooting and hollering, then I'm not going to waste my time." I interpret these sentences to mean Coretheapple is about to stop editing the article entirely. Seeing how that user made only 3 edits after that, I think I'm right about that.

And even if Coretheapple was rude, then gave up editing the article? What more does Wondering55 want done? I'm thinking the best solution here instead might focus on Wondering55. -- llywrch (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Coretheapple has not given up on editing the article.

I want to know if Coretheapple can be blocked for personal attacks and denigrating comments (like those quoted and shown in the diffs below) that are simply opinions, and not facts, in the one cited Fort Lee discussion. I continually asked Coretheapple to focus on content without this derogatory language, and yet Coretheapple persisted. Coretheapple even edited one of their saved responses, which already had derogatory language, just to add more derogatory language. If Coretheapple cannot be blocked, will this type of language and behavior be allowed, or are there other alternatives to prevent or address this situation? Misplaced Pages and professional environments frown on denigrating opinions among colleagues.

• "wall-o-text rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped at the top of this insane discussion", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting", "hooting and hollering", and "this discussion is insane, and that's a statement of fact, not a personal attack", as well as "blah/blah/fix", "blah blah/comment", and "blah blah/reply" in their Talk History edit comments when responding to me.

• ] (April 12 diff with multiple revisions by Corethepaple with the most significant derogatory comments)

• (My April 9 15:36 response to Coretheapple's derogatory comments)

• (My April 9 16:54 response to Coretheapple's derogatory comments)

This situation occurred while I addressed content and suggested that a significant portion of Coretheapple's revisions could be included. I used words like "compromise", "let's be reasonable", and "in a spirit of cooperation" to try and work with Coretheapple. When Coretheapple could not gain consensus for their entire proposal, Coretheapple started with their derogatory comments and repeatedly added details (with up to 55 extra words in various revisions, and ending up with 41 extra words in final revision) about Zimmer allegations about Hoboken issues to the Fort Lee article rather than just refer readers to Hoboken relief funds investigation, in contradiction to past agreements among editors (as shown below) for the Fort Lee article.

• Rebooting the Scandal Page discussion General consensus shown between February 12 and February 21, 2014

• Complaints about media coverage & Neutrality (February 16 diff)

• Starting at line 514 in Legal representation chart (April 7 diff) Coretheapple was told by JackGavin and me that details about Zimmer allegations belong in Hoboken relief funds investigation. Coretheapple made no objections. Wondering55 (talk) 23:17, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yikes! Mudslinging galore! Too many Wall-o-Text accusations and Attacks... Lets tone this down please. Happy_Attack_Dog (talk) 05:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Reading through the links that he provides, I come away with the conclusion that A) Wondering55 does not understand how article forks work; B) He does not understand the meaning of consensus, C) He does not understand personal attacks, and D) He just doesn't get that "wall of text" is both accurate and apt in describing his tactics. I know Coretheapple from other articles, not this one, and have always found him to be civil, and he shows no evidence of being anything but in this instance. I agree with other editors that the issue here is Wondering55 and his aggressive, attacking, generally clueless and WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 13:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I simply pointed out denigrating comments made by Coretheapple based on the facts. There are no personal attacks by me. Coretheapple's personal attacks in the referenced talk discussion and in their response above are covered by Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks:

• "Accusations about personal behavior that lack evidence. Serious accusations require serious evidence. Evidence often takes the form of diffs and links presented on wiki. Criticisms of, or references to, personal behavior in an inappropriate context, like on a policy or article talk page, or in an edit summary, rather than on a user page or conflict resolution page. Remember: Comment on content, not on the contributor."

Consensus and agreements were clear in the cited Talk diffs above. Previous editors, except for Coretheapple who was told by more than one editor, knew that it was agreed that details about Zimmer allegations would be shown in Hoboken relief funds investigation.

Coretheapple was unable to get anyone to support their proposal to add details about Zimmer allegations into the Fort Lee article, so there was no consensus for their proposal. Yet, Corethapple went ahead and added these details in contradiction to Bold Revert and Discuss.

There is no evidence or facts in the cited Fort Lee discussion that I had the claimed wall-o-text based on Wikiepedia's wall-o-text.

There is no evidence or facts to support that there was any "agressive, attacking, or generally clueless WP:TENDENTIOUS behavior", which are clearly denigrating comments without any substance.

When I used words like "compromise", "let's be reasonable", and "in a spirit of cooperation" to try and work with Coretheapple, it clearly contradicts those baseless charges.

Clearly, some people do not understand what it means to be civil, when shown comments about me and my responses that included "wall-o-text rantings", "insane discussions", "you slapped at the top of this insane discussion", "wikilawyering", "boldface ranting", "hooting and hollering", and "this discussion is insane, and that's a statement of fact, not a personal attack", as well as "blah/blah/fix", "blah blah/comment", and "blah blah/reply"

Whether Coretheapple was civil in any other Talk discussions, has absolutely no bearing on the presented facts for the cited Fort Lee talk discussion where they were not civil. Wondering55 (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Apparently you are not happy with the responses you have received here, and have commenced a discussion on the same issues at the Teahouse. You were warned not to forum-shop, which you deny doing. You were also advised to "take to heart the excellent advice that a wide range of experienced editors have offered you in recent days," to which you responded in the negative. Would you like to continue the discussion here, or would you like to pursue it there, or is it your intent to discuss your grievances simultaneously in this forum and at the Teahouse? Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Figureofnine, you are being very kind to Wondering55. A less kind person -- like me -- would at this point make the following points: (1) speaking as an Admin, I'm not going to penalize Coretheapple for anything he posted so far in this case; (2) speaking as a third party, I seriously doubt any other Admin is about to penalize Coretheapple; & (3) speaking as both, if anyone is to be penalized here, I expect it will most likely be Wondering55. I strongly advise Wondering55 to accept the fact that not only he/she will not be getting any satisfaction here, but that he/she has dug himself into a very deep hole & should stop digging -- if nothing else. -- llywrch (talk) 21:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm struck by the absence of understanding. He just hasn't a clue. If you go to the archive of his talk page, where he appears to deposit old and new posts that don't make him look very good, he lectures an administrator who blocked him a week or so ago. "Hopefully, you will find lessons learned here for your next administrator review." Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Voice-to-skull

Greetings. I created an entirely new article on this subject. I understand there is some sort of dispute over a previous article that was deleted (and subsequently recreated) repeatedly. I looked into the subject and found that it is in fact notable. It seems to be written about with hyphens, so that's why I used them. Another editor has redirected. I have reverted. I also need help redirecting the Voice to skull page to this article since that page has been protected. I know people can get testy, but this is indeed a new article created in good faith so it should be treated and assessed as such. I don't see any issues as far as notability as it is well cited. Thanks for any and all insights and assistance. I am going to be offline for a while, but will check back in when I get a chance. Thanks. Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Utter bullshit. Only one of the sources cited even uses the term 'voice to skull'. This is a clear and unambiguous attempt to recreate an article on a subject deleted as non-notable fringe nonsense in a recent AfD. The topic (in as much as it merits discussion at all) is already covered in other articles, and has no independent notability - it simply doesn't exist except as a term bandied around on conspiracy-theory websites. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You are most welcome to take it to an Articles for Deletion discussion. You say it is covered elsewhere, but where? Electronic harassment seems to me to be an entirely different subject. So where exactly do you think this subject is already covered? Candleabracadabra (talk) 17:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I have moved the article to Acoustic harassment. I hope this satisfies Andy's concerns. I still need help with the redirect requested above. Thanks. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

We don't base articles on a single source. Everything else you included in the article - by clear and unambiguous synthesis, since none of the other sources used the term 'voice-to-skull' - can be covered, if properly sourced, in existing articles actually discussing real technology. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:02, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, that article has just recently been deleted TWICE, at AFD and MFD. I'm debating if I need to just CSD it under G4 and salt it, if someone else doesn't beat me to it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"Voice-to-skull" is a POV re-hash of material already covered at Electronic harassment and Psychotronic_weapons. I've redirected accordingly. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What does the acoustic harassment, as in fact used on birds and marine mammals, have to do with the weird electromagnetic warfare articles you are talking about? Please restore the article so it can be discussed. Also, if you don't think it's notable you are welcome to propose a merger or better yet take it to Articles for Deletion. I welcome the scrutiny because the subject is obviously notable. And I suggest you actually READ the article so you have some idea about what you are talking about. Are acoustic harassment devices covered in the articles you are talking about? That's all I will say for now. Hopefully some cooler and calmer heads will weigh in with some rational input. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:10, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Deleted and salted for 3 months. Full protected Voice to skull 3 months as a redirect as well. One AFD, one MFD, plus a few times failed at AFC have already clearly shown that the community says "no" to this article. Please note that this may be subject to discretionary sanctions under Fringe Science.... Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

LMAO Here are Google book results for acoustic harassment. And Dennis Brown is clearly involved. This is a gross and incompetent abuse of his tools. I hope he will come to his senses and revert himself. Candleabracadabra (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• You are welcome to ask about my incompetence at WP:AN, or my involvement. I haven't edited nor participated in the deletion discussions on the articles, so not sure how you get WP:INVOLVED out of that, I was just helping the previous editor understand why the article isn't going to happen at Misplaced Pages any time soon. That makes me informed, not involved. Just as you claim I was canvassed on my talk page, and I have no idea who canvassed me. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that none of the articles cited used the term 'acoustic harassment' either. Synthesis is synthesis, regardless of the article title. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:29, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

...and it should be noted that Google books search results on marine aquaculture have nothing to do with 'neuro-electromagnetic devices' supposedly developed by the U.S. Army to transmit voices into people's heads. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes. I'm puzzled why they were put forward by Candleabracadabra as some sort of proof. At best, this is a WP:COMPETENCE issue. JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Good deletion/salting/protection. It looks like a UK website called "Christians Against Mental Slavery" is a major hub for pushing this topic.

Question: Shouldn't Voice to skull redirect to Microwave auditory effect instead of Electronic harassment? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter to me, several others said EH was the best choice, but any admin can change it easily if a discussion finds a better redirect. Had others not previously redirected it, I would have just deleted and salted it. I'm not sure the redirect is needed, but it was the community's call. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The Microwave auditory effect is a real thing that delusional people have latched onto as supporting their delusions that Electronic harassment can and is taking place. To redirect V2K to MAE would only reinforce that delusional association between the two things. GDallimore (Talk) 21:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Well spotted, Guy, I was looking for the off-wiki source of this POV-push. That group was apparently founded in the UK, which suggests that Mike Corley might be involved. Guy (Help!) 19:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Synsepalum2013

Can we finally do something about User:Synsepalum2013, and his/her relentless, tendentious and clueless campaign to add fringe conspiracy-theory drivel concerning supposed 'voice-to-skull' devices (allegedly created to project voices into peoples' heads - if you believe the dingbat websites) into Misplaced Pages? We've gone through multiple AfCs AfDs, Mfds and god only knows what else, but :Synsepalum2013 is still insisting that policy doesn't apply here, and that Misplaced Pages should provide a webhosting service for the delusional - this in spite of clear and unambiguous warnings from admin Dennis Brown EdJohnston that the subject is covered under discretionary sanctions regarding fringe pseudoscience, and that repetition of the tendentious behaviour already noted would lead to repercussions. As the latest MfD discussion illustrates, Synsepalum is still basically saying that Misplaced Pages policy doesn't apply, and that his/her interpretation of policy overrides everyone else, and that s/he is entitled to argue endlessly with anyone who suggests otherwise. - and to make it worse, even after everything else, Synsepalum is now once again arguing that the failed AfC (a recreation of the article already deleted at AfD by overwhelming consensus) somehow deserves to be moved into article space: . It seems self-evident that isn't going to stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense until he/she is indefinitely blocked, per WP:NOTHERE, WP:COMPETENCE and as a humongous waste of time, space and energy. Enough is enough. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

We have an article on that, Microwave auditory effect. Same thing right? Darkness Shines (talk) 19:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Minus all the synthesis, unreliable sourcing, and general moonbattery, yes, quite possibly. Though I think our article on auditory hallucination is actually far more pertinent. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:54, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

This editor is promoting a fringe organization which is fighting a fringe battle against notional targeted electronic harassment. I see big problems with WP:HERE—the user is not here to improve the encyclopedia. The user is bull-headed, refusing to listen to all of the experienced editors saying 'no'. I see no future for this person on Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 20:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• EdJohnston issued a discretionary warning on their user page, under Arb's decision on fringe science, and since then I've tried to help keep it from being exercised against the editor by educating them, although I won't claim success. I've already done some G4 deletions and salting on this topic, so will leave it for others to adjudicate. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
• If this is till going on tomorrow, I say we show him the door. This is someone whose only interest in Misplaced Pages is as a vehicle for their own mad ideas. Guy (Help!) 22:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• Made this a subtopic of the "Voice-to-skull" topic that was one section above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:11, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• These links might help for both issues above: the AFC, and the MFD as well as the older AFD. Also check out the talk pages for the editors, and my talk page, and the AFC talk page. Oh, and Jimmy's talk page. It's complicated... Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
  • And now there is another copy in user space, User:Candleabracadabra/Acoustic harassment. I'm starting to think that someone else needs to get involved in a very real way here. Discretionary warning might be a good first step. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not really complicated. I created a completely new article with quality sources. When it got redirected because someone thought it was the old article I posted here so I could get more scrutiny. Within minutes Dennis speedily deleted the article with a dishonest edit summary with claiming it was a recreation.It wasn't. The article had absolutely nothing in it about mind control as I didn't find any mention of that subject (which seems to me to be totally distinct) in any of the sources I found. Dennis violated numerous policies, he was involved, and he should stop trying to hide the truth and cease bullying those he disagrees with. If he thinks the new article isn't on a notable subject he's welcome to propose a merge or take it to AfD as per policy. I'm absolutely confident that acoustic harassment is notable, but maybe he can get enough people to vote "I don't like it". At any rate, we don't obliterate subject so editors can't see what we're discussing and then misrepresent and lie about what we've done and why we did it. That's bullying of the worst kind. Candleabracadabra (talk) 06:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's not really complicated. This is an offsite campaign to advance an extreme fringe POV by stating as fact a belief that is held primarily by people who are mentally ill, and is already covered in electronic harassment. It's been deleted a few times now, so it's time to stop. And Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Candleabracadabra/Acoustic harassment for good measure. Guy (Help!) 08:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

These claims of involved, bullying, dishonesty, policy violations are of course complete bullshit. Help, I'm being repressed. Drmies (talk) 14:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, but both users seem to be expert wikilawyers and it really is past time this nonsense was shut down once and for all, otherwise we'll be arguing with them until the heat death of the universe. Guy (Help!) 15:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Closure

Looking at the history, it seems that Synsepalum2013 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was well aware of the deletion debate at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Voice to skull, but nonetheless created Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Voice to skull, which was moved to article space, deleted again, then re-created at Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation/Voice to skull. Sensepalum2013 seems to be completely unable to accept that there is any problem with this, and unwilling to accept the judgment of others that this subject is adequately covered at electronic harassment. Synsepalum2013 is a single-purpose account. The case for a topic ban of Sensepalum2013 from the subject of voice to skull, under any title or in any article, seems very strong.

Candleabracadabra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) seems identically unwilling to accept consensus against this article. There is some suggestion of off-wiki collusion. Candleabracadabra is a user in good standing. In this case I believe an admonition to drop the stick and step away from the deceased equine is warranted. Guy (Help!) 09:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I can see no point in a topic ban for Sensepalum2013 - s/he is clearly not here for the benefit of the encyclopaedia, and there can be no realistic prospect of useful contributions from someone so clearly incapable of working in a collaborative environment. An indefinite block would be simpler, and we've wasted too much time over this already - a topic ban would simply give Sensepalum2013 another excuse for Wikilawyering nonsense. As for Candleabracadabra, I can't say I'm convinced by suggestions of collusion, and inclined to put the article recreation down to poor judgement - I suspect that if it hadn't been for Sensepalum2013's interminable tendentiousness, we would probably all have been less hot-tempered about it, and much of the strife could have been avoided. I still say that the article Candleabracadabra created (under whatever name) is synthesis, and it certainly shouldn't have been called 'voice to skull', but this is largely a content dispute, and not really an ANI matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 09:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I could get behind a topic ban (edit: provided that a breach of the ban is dealt with in a decisive manner by moderators confident enough not to engage in pointless arguments/wikilawyering and wasting their time. If he breaches the ban, that's his fault). Oversimplifying my reasons, it's more of a moderated, preventative measure rather than outright punishment, and I like that idea even though I agree with Andy that there is no likelihood of positive contributions. Having said that, Andy, you need to learn to walk away stop engaging (sorry, I didn't mean "walk away" from the article, I meant walk away from an argument which isn't going anywhere) when it's clear you've won and stop wasting your own time unecessarily. I'm bad at it, but you're worse than me! GDallimore (Talk) 09:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It is worth noting that Synsepalum2013 has already been given a DS warning via Fringe science, so a topic ban can be unilaterally be implemented by any admin (although that is NOT my favorite way to issue a topic ban). As for Candlebracadabra, they have been abrasive to everyone at every turn, and I still think that a DS warning is due, allowing any admin to use whatever methods are necessary in the future, should they not comply. Also note, they have a copy of the article in their user space, showing an unwillingness to drop the stick and use the processes here to get a review. Both have shown an unwillingness to consider community consensus and instead try to bypass the system. That is troubling, thus why the DS warning is needed. As I'm already neck deep in this, I would prefer a different admin consider this. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It seems reasonable to notify Candlebracadabra of ARBPSCI so I have done so on the basis of this discussion. Guy (Help!) 13:21, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

That's fine, but let me add that I also have no reason whatsoever to suppose that Candle is colluding with this other editor. I mean, it's possible that they've been emailing or whatever, but whatever Candle did in that userbox did not require the other editor's help. Sure, they're abrasive, but this article they're working on is an effort to improve the project--at least according to their opinion. If Synsepalum is to be blocked (I have no opinion, not having checked their entire record), Candle certainly should not be blocked for the same reason. I say let them move their article to main space and settle it, if it needs to be settled, via an AfD; it is a content matter, not an ANI matter. Drmies (talk) 14:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying anyone needs blocking, but the warnings are appropriate, and they should understand they are individually treading in areas with a low threshold for action. Candle did start the article with the exact same name before changing it, but I haven't drawn any conclusions based on that, except to assume two people are recreating material the community has definitely and clearly said "no" to. If they want to seek review, I have no problem with that, but personal sandbox versions and multiple RFCs are not the proper way to seek review, they are ways to bypass the system altogether until (hopefully) no one is noticing. That is very much a reason to get blocked via discretionary sanctions if it continues once the editor has been informed. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

@Drmies: You will see that I too draw a definite distinction between them. One is a WP:SPA, the other not. However, we already have a clear consensus on this subject: the article is not warranted, the sources do not adequately distinguish between the fictional concept of V2K and the mental illness that is describes in electronic harassment (or possibly auditory hallucination if that's considered a sharper redirect). It may well be that Candle's input is an unhappy coincidence, coming hard on the heels of a determined POV-push by Synsepalum. The best thing for Candle to do right now is go back to other subjects, or possibly collaborate by adding sources and detail to the redirect target rather than agitating for an article Misplaced Pages clearly does not want. Or do it the proper way and request DRV, but I hold out no hope of that working. Engaging in apparent attempts to subvert deletion of the article, is a very bad idea, especially right now. Guy (Help!) 16:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Considering Candle's charges against various admins (including JzG, Dennis Brown, and me) it's probably best if another admin look at their most recent contributions, esp. at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Candleabracadabra-Acoustic harassment, but also on their own and Dennis's talk page, to see if those personal attacks cross the line. Drmies (talk) 17:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It should be noted that Dennis and Drmies posted a video on their talkpage mocking me, Drmies has also referred to me as a puppy, his buddy templated me and gave me mock "novice editor" award, and Guy made a bunch of absurd allegations against me. So tageting me for supposed NPA violations is really laughable. Drmies should refrain from bullying and cease his hypocrisy. Candleabracadabra (talk) 01:12, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Huh? I referred to you as a puppy?? That's news to me. Dennis and I do not share a talk page, and that video, he posted it--though, not to mock you, I presume, but rather your whining about censorship and admin abuse and bullying and dishonesty and false edit summaries and collusion ("buddy") and blah blah blah. Can't teach an old dog a new trick, I suppose--speaking metaphorically. But what a shame. Drmies (talk) 02:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I gave you the template as a friendly gesture, because of this comment: . Drmies told me to go and leave this article alone -> Red Easter egg, and work with dog and puppy articles (my speciality), it was not about calling you a puppy, BUT, if someone would call you a puppy than is infinitely better then telling Drmies to piss off and to Dennis to fuck off, when those two administrators were try you to help you edit Misplaced Pages conforming to the rules. I am not involved in your editing dispute, but I do address Candleabracadabra on two issues here:-
  (a) Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith
  (b) you should take note of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks as for -... -piss off you are not welcome here- - -fuck offthis ... and such ...

• PS: (and that video was a silly Monty Python sketch, a silly joke on Drmies page that had absolutelly NOTHING to do with you.) Hafspajen (talk) 15:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Disruptive editing and declared personal views seemingly incompatible with NPOV editing concerning User:Drowninginlimbo

User:Drowninginlimbo is a relatively new editor but has often edited contentious articles concerning gender issues since joining. Their conduct can be quite disruptive, particularly of late, and has included edit-warring (here is the 5th revert , this occurred despite clearly knowing all about 3RR previously). This was immediately followed by false accusations of vandalism , there's a general failure to understand Misplaced Pages policies not to mention what appears to be deliberate misinterpretation of people's advice . I previously warned the editor against making false accusations, yet opening Misplaced Pages today to find one concerning NPA on my own talk page..

Most significantly, I've also noticed the editor added links to very extreme and highly offensive articles to their userpage upon joining Misplaced Pages, these deny the very possibility of the existence sexism against men because of their gender or the gender of the perpetrator, not to mention the supposed impossibility of racism against groups of people simply because of their race. These have now been removed but the comments that accompanied them appeared to condone the material and the editor has made equally extreme remarks in discussions. The real concern is not simply these links, but also the editing pattern that has accompanied them. From their very first edit DIL has sought to delete material concerning sexism against men from Misplaced Pages: , this is something that continues to this day. It may well be the case that views they endorse not to mention their statements such as "There is no discrimination against men and this non-issue distracts from real issues" make it impossible for Drowninginlimbo to edit certain articles from a NPOV. I'd also remind people that men's rights topics (broadly construed) are under probation, therefore making much of the above even more serious than it might be otherwise. As the probation notes state: "Very little leeway is allowed in pages under probation, so contributors need to show themselves to be model Wikipedians". Anyway it would be useful to hear some input from others. Thanks.--Shakehandsman (talk) 21:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• A rather obvious sockpuppet, Gorgi88 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has arrived. Sock blocked indef, sockmaster for a week. Guy (Help!) 22:47, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure? Why would he/she be edit warring with themselves? http://i.imgur.com/hgwCY44.png Ging287 (talk) 22:57, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Umm, I don't know about sockpuppeting, but what exactly was, quote, "very extreme and highly offensive" about the linked articles? WTF? That's just an obvious, dishonest, attempt at poisoning the well by User:Shakehandsman. If he genuinely believes these to be offensive, well, then he's the one with the problem. If he doesn't, that doesn't reflect well either. I have seen no problem with Drowninginlimbo's edits from a POV point of view, indeed, their edits have tried to introduce a measure of neutrality into a topic area which it seems (I just stumbled into it recently) is dominated by dedicated and tendentious POV pushers, who have serious WP:OWN issues.

Actually, yes, let me comment on the sock puppet allegation. It could be true. I don't know. What gives me pause is that Drowninginlimbo was reverting his own supposed sock puppet: . Why would the sock master revert his own sock? I guess, it could be some kind of misdirection ruse or something, but at least as far as the WP:DUCK goes, it implies that it doesn't apply. Has a checkuser been run or something? Or is this just some arbitrary decision? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Note - edit conflict. I'm making the same point as Ging287 above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

To think that Gorgi88 is a sockpuppet of Drowninginlimbo is ridiculous. Apart from the fact that they edit-warred with one another across a number of articles, Drowninginlimbo can write a grammatical sentence whereas Gorgi88 cannot. Their editing styles are completely different. I won't believe the one's the sock of the other without CU evidence. It's absolutely implausible. I agree that Drowninginlimbo has edited intemperately at a number of articles, but he listens to reason and reverted himself at my suggestion when he'd violated 3RR. He's learning how to edit calmly and will probably end up being a valuable contributor. I'm not familiar with current activity at the article that the OP is concerned about, so I won't comment on anything to do with Drowninginlimbo's behavior there, but I think it's absolutely unreasonable to conclude that Gorgi88 is a sockpuppet of Drowninginlimbo. I think it'd be best to drop that idea entirely and unblock Drowninginlimbo so that he can participate in this discussion.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 23:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I really don't' see any sock puppetry here either. A block appears to be justified for Drowninginlimbo, but it needs to be issued for the correct reasons, otherwise they won't learn much from it. And no one seems concerned about the main problem here, which is that a totally innocent party, User:Gorgi88 has been caught up in all this and blocked indefinitely for absolutely no reason--Shakehandsman (talk) 01:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yep, you're right. Obviously Gorgi88 should be unblocked too and if Drowninginlimbo's to be blocked, it should not be for sockpuppetry. Calling Gorgi88 totally innocent, though, is a little much. Not guilty would be closer to the truth.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 01:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• comment I haven't looked into the sock issue closely but I agree on the surface it doesn't make sense at all, diff editing patterns and conflicting reverts. I had suggested to Drowning in the past that they avoid the topic of "Violence against men" since a number of their edits demonstrated a strong bias against the category and topic even existing. Drowning seems to have a strong interest in gendered issues, which is fine, and Alf seems to have taken them under their wing, so I think with mentorship and some guidance from other experienced editors Drowning can become a strong contributor here, they just need to check their POV at the door and edit in a neutral fashion - as we all do.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 01:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Shakehandsman, I'm sorry, but I'm unable to understand one thing you say. It may well be the case that views they endorse not to mention their statements such as "There is no discrimination against men and this non-issue distracts from real issues" make it impossible for Drowninginlimbo to edit certain articles from a NPOV. I've re-read this sentence several times and can't parse it. <It may well be the case that> <views they endorse not to mention their statements> <such as "There is no...issues"> <make it impossible...NPOV>. What do you mean by "views they endorse not to mention their statements"? Nyttend (talk) 03:10, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Apologies if my comments aren't clear, I think Obiwankenobi sums thing up pretty well. Essentially, the point is as follows: Any user with with views so extreme that they think a genuine topic cannot even exist, should not be going around Misplaced Pages attempting to delete swathes of material pertaining to that topic, and it is unlikely that they should be editing in that area at all. Their behaviour constitutes blatant activist editing, and their use of such an extreme and clearly nonsensical argument as grounds for removing material means it is likely to be impossible for them to edit neutrally. If an editor has shown such this incredible bias by stating that a topic cannot possibly even exist, then their concern is not in improving Misplaced Pages coverage the topic in question, but simply eliminating as much material as possible in order to back up their fringe belief system.--Shakehandsman (talk) 03:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I assure you, my editing is not activist editing. I am just trying to improve articles that I see faults with. That specific quote is something that I said in my first days editing and I probably phrased it badly. I'm going to explain what I meant in that quotation. What I was trying to say, and this is still a personal belief of mine, is that men do not face sexism as women face sexism, just as white people don't face racism as persons of colour face racism (something that you also seem to be offended by judging by your mention of my mistake of seeing a "supposed impossibility of racism against groups of people simply because of their race" aka white people) This certainly isn't a fringe belief, but I appreciate that it wasn't helpful for me to have used it as an edit summary when editing that particular article as it is independent to the sources. Do you plan to push white rights articles after the men's rights ones? There is little academic backing for the men's rights movement, which is possibly due to the SPLC report equating many faculties of the movement to a hate group, so I'm afraid those articles or categories will probably be under a little more scrutiny than feminist ones. This is the result centuries of academic writing and activism for women's rights that has resulted in a huge body of work that we can use for sourcing. However, if there is basis for these articles categorisation, then they will stand up to Misplaced Pages standards despite any activist editing. There is nothing wrong with me editing certain articles, and my view on the category itself, which I believe is your issue, has mostly changed since these edits a month ago as I learned more about how Misplaced Pages functions. Furthermore, my editing has actually improved the sources on some of these articles that I supposedly am biased against, as it brought them to the attention of other editors and brought other sources to them. I have not deleted any articles and at worst have removed a category or two from some. I struggle to believe that this is grounds for banning --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

My concern here is not one single aspect of your contributions, but the pattern of edits and events taken together as a whole. Linking to those abhorrent articles isn't completely wrong in itself, and discussing and documenting such sexist and racist views can be ok too. The problem comes when editors endorse such views, and when their editing seeks to validate such positions, (and the content of some of those articles is rather more extreme than what you talk about above). I realise you are learning, but the fact is that your editing here is still far too combative, we do not define articles and topics as "yours" (or "mine") as you still continue to do above, such statements still suggest a battleground mentality on your part (and therefore possibly further activist editing), and in my opinion this mentality and your strong views cause of many of your problems here, such as making false allegations, giving inappropriate warnings and edit warring.--Shakehandsman (talk) 13:48, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't have sexist or racist views and certainly articles don't document any, saying such is a clear clear personal attack. I don't define articles as "yours" or "mine" either, stop making claims based on absolutely nothing. If anybody has made false allegations here it is you and this whole ridiculous thing. If you would really prefer it, I will remove the allegation from your page. I still think it stands though --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Guess I imagined you just writing this "so I'm afraid your articles or categories will probably be under a little more scrutiny"--Shakehandsman (talk) 14:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Well no, you didn't imagine it, you misunderstood it. My argument was that feminist articles have the benefit of centuries worth of books, discussion, and activism behind them. These constitute sources. So yes, considering the men's rights movement (and I am male) is relatively new and doesn't benefit from that, so of course it's articles will be under more scrutiny. I mean, in my month or so editing, I encountered two attempts of one faculty of the movement to vandalise articles and documented both:

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Controversial_Reddit_communities#Section_Blanking_after_Article_is_linked_by_r.2Fmensrights

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Villa_M%C3%BCller

I would also like to repeat that sections of the movement were classified as potential hate groups by the SPLC:

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

But all of this is against the point. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, and there definitely should be articles of topics that the men's rights movement covers, but it does not mean you can push the fact that discrimination against the male gender happens. and is at least as worse as the discrimination that women face, based on books that have not been written and sources that are not well documented. That is independent research and synthesis at best. I don't understand what you perceive as sexist in that Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

EDIT: Apologies, I misread what you wrote, I meant to type those in place of your --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 15:06, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Furthermore, Shakehandsman himself seems to be controversial as an editor, and not really one who should accuse anybody of having a bias --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

FYI that RFC was closed years ago with absolutely nothing coming of it, most significantly some of the key parties behind it now banned from Misplaced Pages for life for harassment.--Shakehandsman (talk) 13:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I can see that it is dated in 2012, I was just noting that you have been accused of bias in a similar fashion to this --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 13:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

And just yesterday I was "accused" of breaching NPA by an editor of a similar mindset to those in the RFC. This accusation concerned comments I made some two years before they had even joined Misplaced Pages (presumably the theory being that I had used a time machine!)--Shakehandsman (talk) 13:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are trying to say, I found the dispute on your talk page just. I am trying to state that you have previously been accused of exactly what you are accusing me of. No time machine needed Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:04, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I have unblocked both and apologised for my error: this is not a sock, as others have pointed out. The two were engaged in an edit war, that hasn't changed obviously. Guy (Help!) 08:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Hello, first of all I just wanted to say a huge thank you to all of the editors that argued in defense of me not sockpuppeting. Many of you are names that I have edited with across various articles, and it is encouraging to see that even users that I have disagreed with in the past lent their voice to this discussion.

I indeed am not the user Gorgi88.

In concern to the post above, most of the edits you list are from my first days on the encyclopedia. I received advice from the community, specifically the user Obiwankenobi, concerning those, and have changed my editing style somewhat since then. I think you will notice I have not tried to delete any more categories either.

Although I think it is arguable that the links are not offensive, I agree do not belong on Misplaced Pages, mostly as they are blog articles, and if you are interested you can see that they are not currently on my User page. In fact, I removed them very shortly after adding them in case they offended other users, and did so on my first day on the encyclopedia.

Concerning the 3RR and edit warring violation, an admin has already looked at that, and they posted the following on the page. You can read the results here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Radical_feminism#Locked

Otherwise, I don’t think I have to say anything else in my defense. I personally believe that the user Shakehandsman put this admin notice forward, rather than discussing it with me directly, because he does not personally like my edits, and that’s okay, but it doesn’t mean it is worth the admins time --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 12:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Indeed there are issues with the editing of @Drowninginlimbo:, he had 3-4 reverts on Rape culture during march 14, and he had a meaningless revert on Gang rape. I am not saying that he should be blocked or banned for that, but I hope he will understand. OccultZone (Talk) 15:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Hello, concerning that edit on Gang rape, the article mentioned child grooming and the first removal was made by an IP editor so I thought that it may be appropriate to keep it in, but I left it after you edited back. I stand by my edits on Rape culture and those are reverts from different edits Drowninginlimbo (talk) 00:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I can see improvement in you. Hope you will keep it up. OccultZone (Talk) 04:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• The accusation that DIL "added links to very extreme and highly offensive articles" is a bunch of crap. As far as I can see, the links DIL added provide layperson's explanation of academic theory. I could probably find a reliable high quality academic source for most of the statements in the articles DIL linked. You may not agree with the articles, but there's nothing wrong with someone linking a 101 article that reflects widely held academic views on their userpage. Even if you think academia is offensive, WP:RS. If DIL can edit within the constraints of policy - and except for some 3rr violations that I don't imagine DIL will repeat - even if DIL has quite strong opinions, they can absolutely continue to edit their areas of interest. Point out specific instances where DIL has violated specific policies (and remember we don't block let alone ban for stale 3rr violations). Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Mods can close now -several apologies have been made and Drowninginlimbo has clarified his comments and has realised all his mistakes with the one outstanding issue now resolved too. He has even awarded a barnstar to those he previously disagreed with and agreed to follow previous advice about editing a wider variety of topics. A successful outcome all-round, and his improved approach is quite a contrast to certain other parties who've posted here.--Shakehandsman (talk) 00:50, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I think before this section is closed, there should probably be some discussion of your original statement that DIL had "added links to very extreme and highly offensive articles." DIL added links to articles that summed up pretty mainstream academic views, at least one of the links DIL added would even be situationally a reliable source. (By further discussion, I even potentially mean you just saying you realize what was wrong with your statement and retract it.) Kevin Gorman (talk) 00:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Well if people deliberately cherry pick tiny parts of statements, take them out of context, refuse to view an argument as a whole, and can't be bothered to read the full discussion, then it's possible to pretend that almost anything is "wrong". Obviously, I'm not really keen on such nonsense and I won't be retracting a single word as there's not the slightest need to do so. Mods please close, thanks.--Shakehandsman (talk) 03:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You may want to read WP:BOOMERANG. Just because you started an ANI section doesn't mean you get to decide when it ends. You started a section about a relatively new user who certainly doesn't yet understand all of our policies but whose behavior exhibits a pretty decent of good faith (selfreverting when requested etc,) suggesting that they should be topic banned, in part because they posted links to a bunch of "added links to very extreme and highly offensive articles" that were literally just links to posts that mostly just summarized viewpoints that are widely held among academics and in reliable sources. Suggesting that someone should be topic banned because they link to articles that summarize viewpoints that are widely held among academics and in reliable sources is confusing, even if it was only part of your reasoning. To me, suggesting the articles DIL posted are "very extreme and highly offensive" indicates that you are yourself unwilling to accept WP:RS or WP:NPOV, both of which are policy. It is worrisome if you think that mainstream viewpoints are so very extreme and highly offensive as to warrant a tban. So again, please either retract, explain your statement, or even do something like provide an example of a viewpoint in one of the articles DIL posted that you consider so offensive as to warrant even partially justifying a tban that isn't easily found in reliable sources. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Propose topic ban from gender issues for User:Shakehandsman

I do agree with User:Kevin Gorman above. The original post by User:Shakehandsman alleged disruptive behavior on the part of User:Drowninginlimbo. The discussion got side tracked by a mistaken sock puppet accusation which turned out to be unfounded (and the admin involved very quickly corrected their mistake to their credit). But the original reason for the thread remains. However, it's pretty clear that this is an instance where WP:BOOMERANG may be applicable. Shakehandsman's complaint about Drowninginlimbo was that the latter, quote, "added links to very extreme and highly offensive articles". Now, anyone who cares to click these "very extreme and highly offensive articles" can easily verify that they're actually pretty mainstream anti-sexism webpages. In other words, if some user links to them then that's probably the kind of a user that Misplaced Pages should wish to attract (especially given the controversy about the alleged (true or not) misogonist and male dominated culture here). For a user to have problem with these kinds of links, and for them to label them as "very extreme and highly offensive articles" raises some serious red flags. What adds further concern is this warning on Shakehandsman's talk page from arbitrator Newyorkbrad, although from what I can see, the problems with Shakehandsman's behavior go beyond the issues raised by NYBrad. Hence I propose that User:Shakehandsman be topic banned from all articles relating to gender studies, to "Man's Rights", or to crime cases involving women (this was the main issue raised on their talk page). Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support - pretty much per my post above at 04:55, 15 April 2014. The articles DIL posted pretty much represent mainstream viewpoints - not universal ones, but definitely viewpoints held by significant numbers of reliable sources of the highest quality. I think that Shake viewing the articles DIL posted as so "very extreme and highly offensive" as to be worth bringing up in a tban discussion indicates that he would be likely to have too significant problems abiding by WP:RS and WP:NPOV as to be a productive editor in this topic area. As an after the fact edit: having just read NYB's section on Shake's talkpage, I now feel significantly more strongly that this is a warranted step. Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• oppose reading SHM's defense to NYBrad's accusation and some diffs I don't see a case here for a topic ban. As for the links Drowning posted, that's really a matter of personal opinion, there are a great deal of sources that demonstrate discrimination against men based on their sex and claiming such cannot exist can be quite offensive to some, especially if you've been a victim of it. If you say 'ah ok that's discrimination against men based in their sex but it's not institutionalized therefore it's not sexism', it is pedantic AND it misses the point feminists have themselves made about gender roles, which men must conform to as well - anyway this is not the place for debating those links further but suggesting they have mainstream academic consensus is false (all of the links are blogs, not academic journals or RS) Drowning started their time here with a rather POV series of edits and statements that have since been toned down and I am among the editors who noticed this trend, so those links Drowning posted must be taken into context with actions Drowning undertook on the wiki shortly thereafter. For example, to try to de-link Violence against men from Violence against women (ex: protesting a "see also" Edit summary: "'Violence against men' is irrelevant to 'Violence against women' category and distracts from feminist values (my bold)) and then trying to have the Violence against men category deleted, and then attempting to empty it, so it wasn't too hard to connect the dots. SHM made IMO a too eager case here against Drowning, and engaging on talk would have been my preferred modality but a topic ban is a very serious result and I see no such list of problematic edits to merit such. NYBrad accuses SHM of editing in a particular area but I myself saw edits by SHM to highlight child murderers, certainly a subject we don't need to bury under the rug. All we have otherwise above are vague accusations. I think it would be a good idea for SHM to apologize to Drowning for bringing a big case before the court (although, as far as I know, a topic ban was never formally proposed by SHM, was it?) before really engaging more deeply on talk, so if SHM will consider to voluntarily undertake such I think we could close this out with cookies all around.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:17, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The viewpoints represented in the links DIL posted represent mainstream academic views. They're not universal, but they are widely held enough that an editor who views them as hate speech is going to have a hell of a lot of trouble complying with WP:RS with regards to those views. If you are questioning any specific aspect of what I'm saying, I can literally find you a prominent academic source that says the exact same thing. Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:16, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Easy there. I don't think anyone called this hate speech. And again, context matters - if DIL had posted "These are a few academic articles that I find interesting", that is one thing; but posting a whole slew of such blog posts, and then going on to attack and push that same POV in the following days and weeks is quite different. I can find you a prominent academic source that says such claims are bullshit. What's the point? I personally have a strong bias against any academic claim in the sociological domain that is absolutist as those claims are - e.g. not "It's less important, it happens less frequently, it's less severe" - but instead "It's impossible". Only in the realm of pure math do we ever get "impossible". In any case, we should drop this, we can continue the discussion elsewhere...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose SHM's original accusation against DIL was fueled primarily by DIL's careless reading of a talk page and subsequent intemperate and misguided warning of SHM. DIL is known to have been intemperate and is learning to be calm. Both SHM and DIL are happy and back to work. SHM may have been out of line for including DIL's external links in his original post here, but he was understandably upset by DIL's accusations. I think at this point, Kevin Gorman is stirring the pot (and ought to knock it off) and Volunteer Marek, while well-intentioned as he habitually is, is overreacting to this specific situation. That being said, there might well be a case for a topic ban for Shakehandsman, but there's no evidence supporting such an extreme measure here, and this section, having been clouded by a bunch of other stuff since its creation, is not the proper venue. If Marek, Gorman, or anyone else believe such a step is warranted, I urge them to gather diffs and start an appropriate process de novo. A topic ban decided as a result of this thread would be inherently unreasonable.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 14:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose I actually think there could be a good case for a topic ban for user Shakeshandsman, at least considering the evidence provided by Kevin Gorman as a small sample, but I think further research should be made into user Shakeshandsman's edits before doing so, and it shouldn't be done on the back of his accusations against myself Drowninginlimbo (talk) 14:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Yet again, Kevin and Marek are cherry picking from the material in question and making false statements. I won't go over all the excellent points that others have highlighted as there are plenty more issues of concern. Firstly, not every article is as extreme as the other, and some really aren't too bad at all,. The concerns aren't with the most innocuous material posted, but with the very worst, combined with the apparent endorsement and subsequent editing pattern. comments and misconduct. Even if material were by a scholar, well many academics have supported vile concepts such a slavery, racism and eugenics, to imagine that we're somehow now uniquely at the first point in history where no sexist or racist people work in such fields is a fantasy.

Lets take a look at the views being defended: "There is no such thing as reverse sexism" "(women) cannot be sexist or “reverse sexist”. (That sexism against men is "even possible" is again dismissed later in the article). The article then goes on to grossly downplay the odds of sexual harassment of men at work as "negligible", again totally false and offensive A second article informs us: "There is no such thing as "reverse sexism". There just isn't." "So next time you hear someone make an accusation of "reverse sexism," just remember, it simply doesn't exist." A third link states "some folks started claiming that white folks could be the victims of "racism" too.  Even though I thought, from Tim's article, that the impossibility of that was clear" http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/07/15/884649/-Why-there-s-no-such-thing-as-Reverse-Racism

Denying that someone can be a victim or racism or sexism, simply because of their race or sex, is hugely offensive to many people not to mention sexist / racist in itself. For someone to open a page and be confronted with sexist and racist materials could be considered a pre-emptive personal attack, particularly given the types of edits made and article choice. My contributions to Misplaced Pages clearly shows I'm not against appropriately documenting extreme views, far from it, and the evidence points to others here being far closer to that particular position.

Anyway, I think I've seen it it all now. Neither of the two editors above see anything wrong in declaring that a notable topic doesn't exist and then removing as much material from that topics as possible in order to validate this clearly false position. The fact that the view being pushed was offensive and in an area subject to sanctions then makes this worse still. On top of all that we have finally see an attempt to impose a topic ban on the party who exposed the problems and who was offended by the offensive content. This is blatant bullying, something I'm not exactly a stranger to here.

DIL has offered multiple apologies to me for what occurred, and seeing as there's a consensus that I brought this matter here slightly to hastily then I apologise to him for doing so. In my defence, there has previously been a regular pattern of abuses on my talk page and elsewhere being completely ignored, and I've communicated with numerous parties in the past in order to deal with this, usually without even the slighest acknowledgement. DIL already appreciates this may have been a factor in my decision and came to such a conclusion entirely independently. I should also note that there was no topic ban discussion, that's a false accusation - my desire was for DIL to change their behaviour and the issues to be discussed. A topic ban would be the last resort were the issues not resolved and troubling statement not retracted (though as someone who mostly edits conservatively, partly due to regular harassment, I probably wouldn't have been bold enough to propose it).

Finally, if anyone here does actually hold the extreme sexist views we've highlighted, then I would politely remind them that they are not welcome on my talk page at present. A notice to this effect has been in place for a number of years.--Shakehandsman (talk) 16:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Your post here is literally accusing mainstream academia of being sexist and racist. If you think mainstream academia is sexist and racist, I think you'll have more than a little bit of trouble following NPOV. This entry in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy talks some about the idea that reverse racism is impossible (although the author of the entry doesn't agree with it.) He does however talk about T. M. Scanlon's view that reverse racism is impossible. Scanlon holds a named chair at Harvard and is a very well regarded scholar. His views are shared by huge number of other academics, though certainly not by all. Do you believe that you would be reasonably able to accurately weigh the works of people like Scanlon (a book published by an academic press, written by a named chair at Harvard, etc) versus other viewpoints? Also, there's just something really weird and silly about the fact that you pretty much just said that if a named chair and distinguished scholar wanted to post on your talk page, you wouldn't let him. Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:16, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

A lot of people on every side of every issue think "mainstream academia is sexist and racist," including e.g. bell hooks. Do you think that disqualifies her from editing Misplaced Pages? Why don't you just drop it? How can you possibly think that prolonging this is helping anybody or anything?— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 19:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

If bell hooks showed up suggesting that viewpoints held by mainstream scholars were so "very extreme and highly offensive" that even including them on your userpage precluded you from being able to follow RS/NPOV, then yeah, I'd seriously question whether or not she should be editing gender issues on Misplaced Pages, and if she asked anyone who didn't believe the patriarchy should be smashed to not post on her talk page, I'd see an even bigger issue. I think I'm going to some sort of feminist hell now for suggesting I'd consider topic banning bell hooks, heh. You're right that this is a discussion that really needs to be conducted with diffs (that I don't currently have time to collect,) but there is a significant issue here, and one that will become more significant in the future if Shake doesn't explain his behavior. Kevin Gorman (talk) 19:58, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The only person who has explaining to do here is you. You totally misrepresent all my arguments and do so repeatedly and seemingly intentionally by only viewing half of what I say (or less). For one final time, I'll state it was all the behaviours COMBINED that were the problem. You know full well that I have no issue in people discussing and documenting blatantly sexist and offensive views. However, when they promote and endorse them, use them in arguments here on Misplaced Pages, and try to delete swatches of related material, and edit disruptively, it becomes a major problem and is about the clearest possible NPOV breach imaginable. In some circumstances people with extreme views can edit neutrally, but all the evidence here quite clearly suggested otherwise and there is a strong consensus here about this. Your repeated defence of the misconduct is absolutely disgraceful and quite astonishing. I will not be interacting with you any further given the repeated false statements you make about my position not to mention the bullying conduct you are engaging in. The whole purpose of that notice on my talk a page it to serve as a buffer from exactly this sort of behaviour and your actions only further validate its necessity. For one final time, mods please close as this serves no benefit whatsoever.--Shakehandsman (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Shake, I'd love it if you could point out anywhere where I defended misconduct, let alone did so more than once, so I can avoid doing so in the future. I just reread all of my posts in this section several times, and can't seem to figure out where I did so. I see one post where I pointed out that DIL had some stale 3rr violations, and that I trusted he wouldn't repeat them. Pointing out that as a matter of policy stale 3rr violations are not acted on as a matter of policy is not defending the initial 3rr violation, it's simply pointing out policy. It definitely looks like the tban someone proposed won't pass without a de novo diff supported attempt, but if you would explain some of your behavior before this thread is closed, it would make people (including myself) a lot less likely to open a new section trying for just that later on.

I've not commented on or endorsed DIL's general editing patterns (except to say I hope he has the sense not to break 3rr again.) All I've said is that it's perfectly acceptable and appropriate for DIL (or anyone else) to accept or endorse viewpoints held by mainstream academics (c.f. Scanlon above,) and that doing so is in no way misconduct. Even in your last post, you seem to suggest that you view people who endorse the views of quite mainstream academics or use them in arguments on Misplaced Pages as unfit to edit. You seem to be saying that people who use mainstream viewpoints in arguments on Misplaced Pages cannot appropriately edit, which seems to be a direct statement that you don't accept npov. Would you be okay with someone arguing that, say, TM Scanlon's viewpoints should be included in the article about sexism? Kevin Gorman (talk) 06:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Tag team on homeopathy

cjwilky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has just been topic banned, so topic banned user george1935 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has popped back up on talk:Homeopathy. The two comments there are an egregious violation of the topic ban, but as an involved admin I will not enact the inevitable block. I don't suppose it's worth CheckUser, there are enough homeopathists collaborating off-wiki that meat puppetry is far more likely. Guy (Help!) 22:55, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Blocked for 1 week for blatant topic ban violation. I haven't looked into a link between the accounts. Basalisk ⁄_berate 23:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not questioning the block and (cards on the table) I supported the original topic ban during the straw poll at ANI. But I am concerned that an editor has been blocked for responding to post-ban comments in a thread he started (pre-ban) that specifically referenced points he had made. Ideally, that thread should have been hatted once the ban was enacted to ensure no suggestion that the editor in question was "baited" into responding there. I don't think that was the case and the continued discussion seems entirely good-faith, but we need to look at this from his perspective. He started a thread, got topic-banned and others continued having a (now one-sided) argument to which he couldn't reply. He finally snapped, responded and got blocked. Again, I don't think that was the intention of those who continued the conversation, but it was the result. The SPI suggestions need to be dealt with but I think everyone would benefit from that discussion being closed so that topic-banned editors can't be "tempted" to defend themselves. I'm going to go ahead and do that (as a relatively uninvolved non-admin) but I think the context could do with some more discussion here. Stalwart111 05:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't agree. If it was a problem for him to see the discussion continuing without him, he could have posted a single message there along the lines of "due to a topic ban in place I am unable to comment here. I would appreciate it if editors would not reference me or my arguments as I cannot respond", and I'm sure no one would have thrown the book at him. Continuing the debate on the talk page of an article clearly covered by a topic ban is not ok. Basalisk ⁄_berate 07:33, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Also why wait this long? The comment to which he replied was made a week ago, and was not in any case aimed at or discussing him specifically. If he wanted to demonstrate that he's unable to drop the stick, then mission accomplished, otherwise it's hard to see why he chose this time to reply to this comment. Guy (Help!) 08:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Basalisk's suggestion is a good one, and it is that sort of thinking that prompted me to post here in the first place. The text of the banned editor's only real contribution to the talk page since his ban (the other was a minor copy-edit of his own comment) read:

Isn't kind of dishonest to keep arguing against "banned" editors? If they are not allowed to answer to your "arguments" - (If you ban everybody who disagrees with you it is really easy to achieve consensus. I will say no more.)

Sorry, but I just can't see how that's "continuing the debate". He didn't re-argue his point - he simply wanted to point out that he thought it was unfair that the discussion continue in his absence. His version might not be as eloquent as Basalisk's but I think the purpose was fairly clear - "I can't participate here any more; it's unfair that this discussion continue if I can't respond". Should he have posted it? No, probably not. I would have thought the better option would be to close it so that he wasn't even prompted to respond in the manner suggested by Basalisk above. But it wasn't and he did. But are we really at the point where we're handing out week-long blocks for asking process questions that aren't actually related to the topic of a topic-ban? Stalwart111 09:19, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It is, however, an unambiguous violation of the topic ban, with no obvious excuse since the comment he replied to was a week old and not aimed at him anyway. In the case of a productive editor with multiple areas of interest, we can forgive a little exploration of the terms of a topic ban, but George1935 is a WP:SPA and has not edited anything at all since the topic ban other than to add two links to a potential copyright violation. This is a user who has only one focus of interest, and shows no interest in moving on. Guy (Help!) 12:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but he wasn't blocked for being an WP:SPA - he was topic-banned for that, and rightly so (with my support). He was blocked for what can only be described as a relatively minor breach of said topic-ban. As is often the case with SPA's, the topic ban was a pseudo-block anyway - it prevented him from editing the only topic he was interested in editing. That is reflected in the fact that he then (effectively) didn't edit for a week following its implementation. I know, given what has gone on with this editor, that its hard to assume good faith any more. I don't begrudge you for that and I respect your decision not to block him yourself per WP:INVOLVED. Blocking someone for a week for asking a question (though badly worded) just seems very "slippery slope" to me. Stalwart111 23:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree re topic banning SPA's. I think it's kinder just to block them. I disagree that this is a minor infraction, becaus eit is a week later and not on his talk page. I expect a bit of pushing the boundaries in the first few days. I expect some comment on an active thread somewhere. But commenting on a week-old comment in a dead thread? That falls under "what part of topic ban were you failing to understand". Me, I'd have issued a strong warning and maybe a 24h block, but as far as I can see this is only headed one way and frankly I can see why someone might want to shorten the death agonies. Guy (Help!) 23:34, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You may well be right in that regard. Perhaps it would have been less "agonising" to have simply blocked him for conduct thus far and been done with it. It would certainly have helped to have avoided what I think is a complicated reason for a block now. The community (myself included, having supported a limited topic ban) is responsible for that. Stalwart111 03:25, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Stalwart111, you raise an excellent point. I've tried to reach out to this editor, as have several others, and what we're doing isn't working. I've seen this problem play out across multiple WP:FRINGE articles: a new editor comes in wanting to help but offering low-quality sources, the editor gets reverted and hit with a blizzard of acronyms, and if the editor does not possess an unusual amount of social grace and academic training, blocks tend to follow shortly thereafter. If we're optimizing for the quality of the immediate article, then all appears well. If we broaden our focus to the (non-fringe) articles that editor could have improved had they stayed, then we can probably do better. Perhaps the solution is earlier mentoring? I'll raise the issue over at WP:FTN. I'd be happy to hear your comments over there. Lesser Cartographies (talk) 15:56, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Stalwart111 - the comment as I suggested it and the comment he actually made are very different. The sort of neutral wording that I used would have been fine - to use petty, sniping language to further the dispute is absolutely against the spirit of the ban. Basalisk ⁄_berate 16:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely, and he has to live with his poor choice of wording which, in this case, involves a block. But I don't think he intended for it to be "sniping" or "petty". He thought it was dishonest and he said so. And you have to ask yourself, what are we preventing with this block? More badly-worded questions? Blocking for a week seems punitive and punishing given an editor has been blocked for breaching his topic ban with a question about decorum in his absence while he is topic-banned. Anyway, nobody else seems to have a view on this outside OP and yourself as the blocking admin so I can only surmise that my playing Devil's Advocate any further is a fairly pointless exercise. I wanted you to think about it in more detail and you genuinely have; that's enough for me. Thank you for entertaining my advocacy. Stalwart111 23:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

User:79.97.64.240

To put it simple, User talk:79.97.64.240 needs a good hard block. I have tried to reach them via dialogue, tried to be civil as of late in the face of snide, taunting abuse, but now I give up entirely. They have repeatedly inserted a comment on the Talk:British Isles article which violates the WP:FORUM rule in a blatant way. They have repeatedly made offensive comments against British people, they have acted in a WP:IDIDNTHERETHAT manner etc etc etc. I'm bored of this. Done. FYI it's a shame because this user can make good comments such as the one they left on Talk:Greencastle, County Tyrone. --Somchai Sun (talk) 10:56, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

It would be instructive if anybody looking at this also looked at the abuse and threats instigated by the above editor and left on my page history. The extremity of her language and persistent harassment of me is disturbing, to put it mildly. I refuse to engage with her because of that. 79.97.64.240 (talk) 11:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Stop playing the victim, because you aren't. I'm following Misplaced Pages procedure. I am not stalking you, the British Isles article is on my watch list. You have absolutely no defense. Abuse? Threats? Rubbish. I lost my temper last month and got told off for it and stopped it. And I am a he and make that perfectly clear, please use correct gender pronouns. --Somchai Sun (talk) 11:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Article needs a semi-protect, we get this pattern of editing from IPs on a mission from time to time ----Snowded 11:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

There isn't a problem with the article as the history shows. It's the talk page where the IP is active. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 12:05, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The IP editor is clearly not here to help. Lugnuts 12:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

On articles related to the British isles? No he isn't. He is however clearly capable of making constructive edits on various other pages. --Somchai Sun (talk) 12:26, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

So User talk:79.97.64.240 does not need a good hard block? Lugnuts 07:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Talk Page ban maybe? If it exists of course... TitusFox 10:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll just continue to remove any inflammatory comments I come across, and won't let this guy troll me. --Somchai Sun (talk) 17:08, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Can the whole Naghmehetaati family be preemptively blocked?

User:Naghmehetaati was indeffed for doing nothing but posting long irrelevant screeds in Persian on some high-traffic talkpages. Since then, guess what, Naghmehetaati 1, 12, 13, 14 and 15 have been blocked in turn, for doing the exact same thing. (No, I don't know what happened to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11. Maybe they're sleepers.) Anyway. It seems likely that the individual will realize some time that it would be smarter to invent a whole new name, but since they haven't so far, could coming siblings be pre-emptively blocked by name alone? I believe there are clever filters, but the information about them isn't written in my language, I tend to stop reading when I come to words like "regex". (No, please don't explain it do me, it's been tried.) Bishonen | talk 12:42, 14 April 2014 (UTC).

• Wanting to nuke the whole family? Once they have edited once, in Persian, then "sock" is obvious. You might get a CU in the loop if you think this has spread beyond the one "family". Otherwise, if the name is an obvious continuation by simply incrementing to the next number (and not a different type of use of the name), then it would seem sockblocking is appropriate before they edit. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, but I'd like to abort them. To block (filter?) them before they're even born. Bishonen | talk 12:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC).
    • I too would like to comment on this issue: IT'S ANNOYING! So I wouldn't say no to your plan Bishonen. --Somchai Sun (talk) 13:57, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
      • I'm not smart enough to create filters yet, although it is on my list of things to do. Can we at least name the filter #RU486? Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 14:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

She seems to be a student who thinks she can talk directly to world leaders by posting on their article's talk pages. Wikimedia should make that happen, WikiSpeakTruthToPower or such like. She's probably using her real name so perhaps she'll stick with that. Maybe pointing her towards twitter.com/HassanRouhani and um...the place you go to talk to Obama might help (Between Two Ferns with Zach Galifianakis?). Sean.hoyland - talk 15:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I just reverted a leftover contact attempt (February 2014) by the sockmaster at Talk:Hassan Khomeini. Shearonink (talk) 16:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The place you go to talk to Obama? http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/

Related: http://www.reddit.com/r/ThanksObama/

I hope this helps... :) --Guy Macon (talk) 18:02, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I just wanted to point out that I asked about the possibility of creating a filter a couple of days ago on AN and was poo-pooed in pretty much the same way Bishonen's post here has been. Anyone who gives this issue a teensy bit of thought would realize that sooner or later the editor is going to stick beans up their nose, which is why I thought a filter of some sort would be worthwhile. It's not a major issue but, as Somchai Sun says, it's annoying. BMK (talk) 18:05, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I think a pre-emptive filter would be wonderful. I will gently disagree that this is not a major issue...*anything* that takes our time away from actually writing and editing content and improving this encyclopedia is a major issue to me. Think of all the time conscientious editors have to spend to keep the tide of vandalism at bay...think of if at least *some* of that time could instead be spent creating and/or contributing useful content... Yeah. Shearonink (talk) 18:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

N16 just blocked. BMK (talk) 00:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Yank Barry

In 7+ years of my time on Misplaced Pages, I think I've only ever opened a case once on this board. I just prefer to settle issues through discussion. But I have a situation that I believe is in urgent need of administrator attention.

The article Yank Barry has had a problem in the past with editors who have conflicts of interest. I actually became involved with the article through a COI noticeboard discussion (see here) where an editor whose username matched the Twitter handle of Barry's charity organization (Gogvc) was removing all negative information about the article subject, and inserting fluff (including unverifiable claims to various awards). That particular editor was eventually blocked (though not by me). After that, I started editing the article in the attempt to bring balance (which didn't just mean removing unverifiable promotion, I've actually tried to de-emphasize his legal troubles which I don't feel are due that much coverage, see discussions on the article talk page).

There have been other editors besides Gogvc who have shown similar promotional behavior. The three other editors that I know of are:

• Accurateinfo973 (talk · contribs)
• Megavox (talk · contribs)
• Theprincessmom1 (talk · contribs)

The editor "Megavox" hasn't edited Misplaced Pages for years (almost 5 years to the day, exactly). Their entire editing history has consisted of creating Barry's biography on their user page (which you can still see). About a year after Megavox stopped editing, Accurateinfo973 was created and immediately began editing Megavox's user page (my personal belief is that Megavox stopped editing under that user account for whatever reason and created Accurateinfo973, which itself isn't a policy violation). Accurateinfo973 then created the article by copying the info from Megavox's old page into article space. The majority of Accurateinfo973's editing history (not all of it, but most of it) has been related to Barry.

After I became involved at the article, things seemed to be proceeding pretty well. I collaborated with Richfife, John Nagle, Nat Gertler, and Grayfell (Nat Gertler and Grayfell didn't get involved until after the disruption began again, see below) to try to balance and expand the article and clean up what the Gogvc account had done, working together through article talk page discussion. Then a new account appeared named "Theprincessmom1", removing large chunks of sourced information (just about anything that wasn't flattering toward Barry) and reinserting the information about Nobel Prize nominations (unsourced and unverifiable information, and also against previous talk page consensus). I'll note that ClueBot reverted one of the edits, believing it was vandalism. I reverted Theprincessmom1's edits as being against consensus. Then Accurateinfo973 reappeared to revert me and further whitewash the article, claiming in the process that the negative information was a "smear attempt". I did not revert Accurateinfo973 immediately, not wanting to edit war, instead I asked them on their talk page to please join the conversation at the article talk page, explaining that we have been working to create a balanced article and that their edits were disrupting that effort. I waited a day for them to join the article talk page, but they didn't, so I reverted them with another request to join the talk page discussion. They did not do so, instead reverting me again and accusing me of having a negative COI (which is ridiculous). At that point I gave up on trying to get through to the editor, and have not reverted their edits (again, I stay out of edit wars) but the other editors working on the article have reverted Accurateinfo973 (twice since I stopped editing the page directly).

All of this prompted John Nagle to create another COI noticeboard report asking for assistance. Unfortunately, COIN does not get a great deal of administrator attention. That is one of the reasons why I volunteer a lot of time there, but since I'm involved I can't use my tools in this situation. Were I uninvolved I would probably block Accurateinfo973 for edit-warring, NPOV edits, and refusing to discuss issues despite multiple requests, but I can't. I'm not sure if there is sockpuppetry going on but that is a possibility. I'd just like it if an uninvolved admin can lend some help, this is far beyond a content dispute. -- Atama頭 16:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

As an aside, Accurateinfo973 is sitting at 3 reverts in the past 24 hours on the article (their most recent revert happened while I was typing up this report). They haven't quite broken 3RR but they've made 5 reverts total in the last few days. -- Atama頭 16:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

In the interest of clarity, let me note that at least two of the editors cited above (myself and User:Grayfell, were not cleaning the article before User:Theprincessmom1 was involved. At least in my case, my attention was drawn to the matter by the COIN postings. None of that should be seen to contradict the basic gist of the above; the article has been subject to heavy editing by folks deleting negative, sourced information and installing unsourced and improperly sourced positive information. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry Nat, you are correct, the two of you didn't get involved until the disruption started up again. I apologize for confusing that, I'll adjust the report above. -- Atama頭 16:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Accurateinfo973 has violated 3RR now. I left a 3RR warning on their user talk page, which I should probably have done when they were at 3RR, but hindsight, etc. -- Atama頭 18:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I came to the Yank Barry article because it was mentioned on WP:COIN and seemed to need some work. Most of the content issues have been discussed on the talk page, so I won't repeat them. The editors mentioned above (Accurateinfo973, Megavox, and Theprincessmom1) all have rather narrow editing interests. "Theprincessmom1" has edited only the Yank Berry article, and has a one-day editing history. "Megavox" is an inactive account, but back in 2009 was devoted to Yank Berry articles only. "Accurateinfo973", the currently active editor here, has an editing history back to 2010, but it's almost all about Yank Berry. The editing pattern is to inflate the achievements of the article subject, and to remove sourced negative information. (For an amusing example, see this diff: ) John Nagle (talk) 19:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Accurateinfo973 has finally made a comment on the article talk page, seen here, but unfortunately it was mainly just an attack on Richfife. I tried to respond encouragingly to the editor, but with the caution to keep things civil. -- Atama頭 20:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

TLDR: An editor violates WP:SPAM, WP:NPA, WP:3RR, you name it

I'm afraid I over-explained myself above, which probably dissuaded anyone from helping. You can read the above for the whole story, but the bottom line is that we have an editor who may be a sockpuppet, probably has a COI, but is definitely edit-warring (though that has temporarily ceased) and is lashing out at every other editor there, basically accusing everyone else of having a biased COI and not being "legitimate editors" conducting a "smear attempt" (their words). They're rejecting such core concepts as verifiability and consensus, and insisting that "the truth" must be reflected in the article regardless of what can be verified. I'm trying to give the editor respect (probably more than is warranted) and offering to help them but since I'm included as part of the "smear" it's probably futile. I can't act as an administrator here so I'd really appreciate help from an uninvolved admin. :( -- Atama頭 16:07, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Another update... Accurateinfo973 has been participating constructively of late, I have hope that they're coming around now. I hope that there is no need for administrative action from this point forward. I'd at least appreciate an uninvolved admin checking things out at some point (because this article has had a very problematic history, including recent history) but I have hope for this particular editor. -- Atama頭 17:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

IP edits reverting sockpuppet edits

An IP user has reverted a significant number of edits stemming from the GoldDragon sockpuppet case. A revert that I reverted was correctly turned back as it contained closely paraphrased material. However, the user had simply stated sockpuppetry as a reason for removal. Looking further through the reversions, several good edits have been overturned, as well as several trivial that did not require reverting. The pace of the reversions on 12 April suggests wholesale, rather than considered reverting.

I don't typically get involved in user disputes as I'm more of a content person. What is the best course of action here? SFB 16:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

@Sillyfolkboy: There is no mandate that all of a sockpuppet's edits must be reverted. But it's also not completely disallowed. An editor like GoldDragon is de facto banned from the project, as their repeated use of sockpuppets would dissuade any administrator from unblocking them (see here where the "standard offer" is discussed, the kind of discussion we have with banned editors who want a ban overturned). Per WP:BMB reverting all of a banned editor's edits is allowed. Not required, but allowed. Anyone who undoes the revert of a banned editor is personally vouching for the edit and is responsible for it, so if you reinstate a banned editor's action and it is judged to be a BLP violation, vandalism, or other form of disruption then you would be treated as if you were the person who originally performed the edit. But sometimes it's best to reinstate it anyway; if a banned editor makes an edit that is unquestionably good (or is undoing something that is unquestionably bad) then reinstating that action is the right thing to do.

Essentially, I don't particularly like what the IP is doing, the indiscriminate way it's being done doesn't sit well with me. If you prefer to go through the IP's reverts and undo any that you think should be undone, feel free. But no action needs to be taken against the IP, because our policy allows it. -- Atama頭 16:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Large backlog at WP:ANRFC

There is a large backlog at WP:ANRFC of discussions waiting for a formal close. It is concerning that many of the entries have been there for multiple weeks without any kind of assessment and are still untouched. Some of the shorter requests are being fulfilled, but it appears as if the larger discussions are being neglected. How can we encourage progress here? 86.170.98.9 (talk) 20:27, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Good question. Pay admins to close them! Or let's have a culture where a closing admin doesn't get bitched out--happened to me a few times and it quickly takes the fun out of it. Drmies (talk) 21:11, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• When closings aren't celebrated with molotov cocktails, pitchforks and torches, then it will be easier to get admin to jump on them. What few I do, I do begrudgingly because it always turns into massive personal attacks against the admin by one side or the other, which gets old after a week or so. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I've largely had pretty positive experiences with closes and I've closed some ugly ones. I think the key to getting this done is to get some uninvolved experienced non-admins involved. As long as you explain things clearly, people are generally willing to accept things. And there is generally no need for the bit. Hobit (talk) 01:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Wait a second! We don't get paid?! (I jest.) It does get very old very quickly closing discussions that aren't simple or obvious. I'll close one at ANRFC once in a blue moon, but nothing too contentious. I closed many as a non-admin, but that was even less fun. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 02:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
• Yeah, I wish there was an answer to getting more people to close these as well. The thing is, closing some of these discussions can be a serious investment of time, like several hours. And like as was said above, you have to be motivated, prepared for the backlash, and more fundamentally, you have to have the time for some of them. That said, I'll try to close some tonight. I, JethroBT 02:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I am the same IP who posted the message originally. Would administrators be interested in barnstars? I have just given one to TLSuda, who has closed a contentious discussion since this message was posted. As others have predicted, he was targeted by an aggrieved user who sent it to move review, but all except this user are endorsing the close. Could something similar to the feedback request service be used, where groups of volunteering administrators are randomly allocated discussions to close? The next ones seem to be at Talk:Pablo Casals (there is apparently consensus except for a vocal user who is insisting on a formal close) and Talk:British Isles. 81.135.61.62 (talk) 20:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Its always nice to be appreciated for doing something, but I don't think barnstars would be enough to get editors interested. Sometimes its just not worth the hassle as we can see today. Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 21:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I'll settle for some expensive Belgian beers. The WMF has my address so you can have it delivered. I JethroBT, the RfC/U I closed last night (Arzel's) took 45 minutes or more so yeah, it's a lot of time to invest. TLSuda, if you've been an admin as long as I have you get $2 per deleted article and $3 per block; $5 for an indef block and $10 for an indef block that requires ArbCom to get involved. RfCs are freebies. Drmies (talk) 01:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Man! I gotta get outta the filespace and away from RFCs. Unless deleted files count as articles... I can second the RFCs in exchange for alcohol. Although I prefer some of that local-made "distillers" beverage. I'd even trade a jar for every RFC. :) Cheers, TLSuda (talk) 21:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

IP Hopping editor

There's a problem that I can't find a specific solution to and I felt this was the only place I could take my suspicions and that's here. I've been watching a number of pages that are visited quite often by an IP hopper. This hopper uses the range 59.101.*.*. The biggest issue seems to be not knowing WP procedure, and constantly adding non notable material. A few times he's been caught removing AfD templates. The issue that brought me here was his attempt to run five pages that are not notable - New South Wales Surge, Victoria Maidens, Western Australia Angels, Queensland Brigade and 2013–14 LFL Australia season. The first four I have tried to maintain a redirect to Legends Football League#LFL Australia but he just doesn't get the message. I left the season one alone and notability tagged it, but I have just sent it to AfD after four months of no action to rectify it. The suspicion that brought me here is that I think it could be User:Pidzz not logging in making these edits. I ask for a checkuser on that one if possible, and if it is him he needs to be warned. There are many issues (too many to link here) but if you were to check the history of the pages I have given you may get the idea. As an aside for...I can't think of the word as I type this, it may appear that I'm a hopper as well, but that's forced by an inevitable reboot of my modem - and I don't hold an account here and never have (and never will). The hopper has been hopping far more frequently. 124.180.170.151 (talk) 23:08, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

FYI, you are an IP hopper by definition. "IP hopping" doesn't imply an intent to avoid scrutiny or some sort of maliciousness; it just means you're on a dynamic IP. Given WMF policy's preference for privacy ahead of the good of the encyclopedia, there's no way a checkuser would tell you whether there's a connection between Pidzz and the IP address. I'm going to guess that the only practical solution here is a rangeblock. However, I absolutely refuse to implement one — I can never remember even the theory behind them, so I'm almost certain to make a big mess. I would welcome help from anyone familiar with rangeblocking. Nyttend (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that a range ban would not be appropriate. I think - and I'm guessing - that the only time a range block would be appropriate would be for a clear range of proxies. But I would point out that the IP hopper that I'm reporting here hops way more frequently that is natural for a dynamic IP (like mine for example). I think I've seen it happen more than once in a 24 hour period, which suggests to me malicious use. It's a shame that there isn't enough for a check user on Pidzz, because for myself I am certain that it's him. However my opinion isn't enough, and that's partly why I came here to begin with - to find any other way to get this sorted. 124.180.170.151 (talk) 05:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It seems like the bigger issue here is the need for a Sockpuppet Investigation of 124.180.170.151. If the instructions on how to initiate such an investigation were clear, I would be happy to do this myself. However, given the editing history of banned User:Justa Punk, 124.180.170.151's "grudge against Australian professional wrestlers" (as noted at and demonstrated through such statements as an insistence that an article "never will" meet GNG) matches Justa Punk's editing style perfectly. If anyone can provide clear instructions on how to launch such an investigation, start an investigation himself or herself, or simply block this IP due to the WP:DUCK test, it would be greatly appreciated. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

An update on the matter in hand. The IP's latest vandalism attempt - removing the AfD tag from 2013–14 LFL Australia season. No other edits though - at least recently (There are a couple of old ones there). 124.180.170.151 (talk) 12:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

If an IP is being disruptive they can be blocked. If the IP is dynamic and quickly changes then a block is ineffective. The best course of action is to request semi-protection, to prevent any and all IPs from editing the page(s) affected. Of course, that would also affect you, but if that becomes a problem you can always register. Unfortunately there isn't much else that can be done, range-blocks are an option but we have to be very careful how they're done (and you're correct that they are rare unless we are blocking proxies, though that's not the only time that we block IP ranges). -- Atama頭 23:16, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

User:77.101.41.108

This IP user has been quite disruptive over at ITN lately. This user has been quite rude towards other users. The user also does not appear to understand the purpose of ITN. For example, the user got annoyed when another user nominated an attack similar to one the IP nominated, despite the two attacks being unrelated overall. This is just a little bit of the IP user. They have been writing some walls of text in nominations, contradicting themselves in their comments, and generally not understanding the whole point of ITN. When confronted about their behavior, they just removed the comments left on their talk page. I understand this may not be enough diffs to do anything but this IP user has been more disruptive than what I have linked. I honestly believe this IP user is acting in good faith, but does not have a fully clear understanding of what ITN actually is. If what I have posted is not enough, you can look at his user contributions and see more. Other ITN regulars (those who are active in the whole ITN process) have been dealing with this IP user for a few days and some have shown dislike towards this IP, so I am not the only one here who has an issue.

Again, sorry if what I have linked is not enough. I don't post at ANI often and I am not the best at typing out reports like this. If you want more proof or evidence you can look at the IP user's contributions. Andise1 (talk) 01:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Anise1 summed things up pretty well. Since this user arrived on ITNC the page has become roiled with discussions flowing from their comments and repeated nominations. 331dot (talk) 01:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

77 here-

Firstly I want to say thank you for providing such a wonderful resource and awesome well of information. In the short time I have been posting here, I have had many interesting stories to think about and have met many kind and interesting posters. The great majority are of course a credit to this site, and have been both accessible and informative, much like this site.

Unfortunately, some of the ITN users have displayed hive mind characteristics, and have decided its their duty to repeatedly attack and harass me, whilst I struggled to understand the format we are using. Furthermore they have often misrepresented the aims and goals of wikipedia and ITN as stated in wikipedias own wording, and have acted as little tzars of one of its lesser moderated sub sections. I have at all times refrained from instigating ad hominem and insults, as its a personal rule, but have responded in kind when people have made repeated personal attacks and sniping comments, because i did not have easy recourse to moderation, or to redress.

I do enjoy the site, and I am happy to contribute. In the last 24 hours, 2 of the stories I worked on have been put into the ITN header on the main page. I personally believe that sadly there is a lot of jealousy and resentment in some of the more pedestrian and challenged editorial members, as they see this as some kind of home forum, and not a format for making articles available for stories of widespread interest, and indeed making wikipedia a great encyclopaedia.

I am used to dealing with hive mind mentality online, and it is an ugly thing. However it is always the vocal few who act as trolls, who treat a format or forum like a bridge and chase away anyone that doesn't validate their own insecurities. I am not so easily scared away, by petty and irrational vindictiveness.

In the last couple of day I have been misquoted by someone who is complaining here, in what was an unprovoked attack. I've seen two members display unwarranted and unsolicited hostility to me and to others, which has actually been rebuked by other members on sight. I've seen a member ignore a story that I nominated only to later duplicate the nomination later one. Ive also seen the posters who are complaining here, act in a petty and vindictive way, posting notes on walls and making personal comments behind my back, as if we were in high school. Some of this is process, and thats fine, but when the same people are misquoting me explicitly in front of me, on the boards, in attacks, and colluding with hateful messages to each other, I drew the line and told them to go to admin if they had an issue.

I am not in charge of wikipedia's attitude and manners towards new posters, as reflected by its poorer members.

I've done my best to work to understand the format and to contribute positively, and indeed in the last few days ive learned how to do everything up to and including making articles, making ITN nominations, making the blurbs and making titles that correspond to Misplaced Pages traditions. I do come from a journalistic background, despite my typos, and I already understand and appreciate the importance of things like sourcing, quoting, and lay out.

I am here to contribute and if you don't appreciate or want my contributions, as much as I've enjoyed helping out, I am happy to leave. Most of your posters are good eggs, and I am grateful to the ones who have been kind enough to help out and to encourage. I could name right now who the best guys are in that room, but fortunately the majority are great. Unfortunately, I've also ran into bad posters too, who have acted as poor people as well as poor editors and whose reputation writ large is the reason women dont post here and many people dont want to help.

I've done my best and learned a lot. I thoroughly enjoyed debating these things and helping out. Thank you, and that is all.

Cheers. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 01:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Calling my paraphrasing a personal attack is just wrong. Nowhere did I call you names and I challenge you to show that I did. 331dot (talk) 01:58, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You came into ITN and demanded we do things your way. The best advice is to sit back and watch and learn for a few days/weeks before contributing to understand various naunces with WP's policies. --MASEM (t) 01:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

No, Masem. I demand only to have the right to have an opinion, and to politely express that opinion without personal harassment and a little hive mentality, of 4 or 5 posters who are ruining it for everybody and keeping well meaning new comers off this site. My opinion is my own. You opinion is your own. We should all have the right to express our opinions and not to be forced into a false consensus on things. I am not campaigning for ron paul here. I had to deal with a wall of angst just for putting up a picture of Snowden, on a nomination about the pulitzers. you are saying people should sit back and see how you and a few others chose to do things. But you are not wikipedia or indeed any kind of majority even in this subsection of wikipedia. When I am working off a template fashioned by every major news net work on the planet, minus MSNBC, I do not expect a wall of angst and personal remarks, simply because I chose to use a snowden picture like they all did. Its unwarranted and its unlikely to make much sense to anyone who has ever worked in the media or professional journalism.. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 03:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I have to concur there's an issue here. My gut feeling is that this apparently new user, editing ITN at full steam from his initial appearance, is a sock or a blocked user. There's no hamfisted article editting to indicate the user doesn't know exactly what he's doing. Regardless of whether that's the case, his contentious and insulting walls of text on every thread he engages in are disrupting to the point he's got experienced admins flummoxed.

A search for his name on the page gets over 100 hits (my browser gives up over that number) and many of the threads he posts on consist of say six comments, one each by six editors, and six comments by the IP user in response to each of these editors. The most recent discussion, NSA has 10 comments by him, six uses of the word irrational to describe other editors, and at most 2-3 comments in response to him by any other single editor. The user should be warned, and I think an SPI is warranted, given his behavior quacks like a previously blocked editor. μηδείς (talk) 02:05, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• μηδείς - I can honestly say, you are a consistent and unremitting source of negativity, sniping, shit stirring and unwarranted, unsolicited hostility bordering on harassment. I have little surprise that wikipedia find it difficult to attract female editors with poster like you around to target and attempt to prey on people who are new, that you happen to have disdain or negative interest toward. You have made no effort to be friendly. No effort even to meet the most customary tenets of wikipedias expressed policy toward new posters, or any posters for that matter. In the last few days I have learned the format here top to bottom, and you are still posting irrational, objectively ignorant, irrelevant things in an adult discussion and taking every opportunity to hate on people without just cause or reason. I have worked out an alien format in a matter of days, and you still find it impossible to even understand the concept of good faith or being polite and cordial to people you dont know online. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 03:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The editor's comments above are a perfect example of his reaction to any disagreement he has, challenge he imagines, or any comment made in regard to his action; snide insulting comments about his perfect innocence, the conspiracy (hive mind) against him, and his ability to determine who at the page is good, and who evil. I apologize for not providing diffs, but a simple reading of any nomination he's commented on at ITN will bear out the complaint. μηδείς (talk) 02:12, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

77 does somewhat remind me of Gruesome Foursome (talk · contribs), although I am fairly confident 77 is a new user, not the reincarnation of a previous one. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You continually attack the poster and not the post, and hide behind a few friends to validate your poor form and behavior. I dont hide behind anyone and I maintain the right to have an opinion and to express that opinion. I dont instigate personal attacks, ad hom or insults, but absolutely reserve the right not to falsely attest to a false consensus. I am not perfect, but my intentions are clear, because I am a morally cogent person. I can not judge you, but I do find your attitude, behaviour and actions to be quite deplorable and impossible to justify if I was the one doing it. I dont jump into nominations and attack people I dont know, unwarranted. I dont talk about others behind their backs, with little hate notes. I dont approach objective adult conversations, carrying resentments and grudges against people I dont know. I dont talk childishly and ignorantly, in objective debates. So no, I dont judge you, because I dont know you, but I find very little about you to defend, to like, to trust, or to recommend to admin as anything other than a deterrent to new posters and to female posters in particular. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 03:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

FYI, μηδείς is female. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• μηδείς - just now in the ITN nomination on the Pulitzer prize- I posted the ITN, and also penned the framework of an article. For some reason you proceeded to post - "Nothing against Snowden actually, but if I never see his or Miley Cyrus's mugs again... If you weren't so beligernet, 77, I'd already have posted this before your nannying."

I have no idea why you are calling people belligerent or indeed misspelling belligerent. I have no idea why you are calling people nannys or why you are talking about snowdens mug, or bringing up miley cyrus in an ITN nomination. I have no idea why you are communication visceral disdain for snowden, the guy in the headlines of CNN, Fox news, BBC, AJZ and Reuters news casts on this story. I have no idea why the first two times you posted anything toward me it was hostile and insulting, or why you were leaving little hate messages on another posters wall about me, and your disdain for me. It makes no sense to me. I am an adult and work around adults. Its completely incredulous behavior to me. But each time I treat you with equanimity and you come back with open hostility and childish behaviour. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 02:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Note that in response to the collapsed "discussion" at this Hall of Fame nomination I pointed out to Thaddeus the irrelevance of 77's anti-American arguments and suggested he not argue back, as 77 was trolling him. This is what 77 refers to as a "hate" message above, but without giving a diff, since of course there was no "hate" message and the comments are perfectly justified by the ITN/nom section that was collapsed (albeit not by myself, but another editor who saw its futility).

Likewise, the fact of 77's belligerence is born out by almost half of his 140 current comments at ITN/nom. And his nannying by such things as his worrying above about a typo not worth correcting. Here he edit conflicts while to tell me with his immediate knee-jerk objection to absolutely everything, in a nomination of his which I am supporting. But even then he has to lie about the matter, saying in his post above, without diff, that I have a "visceral disdain" for Snowden, mentioned in the nomination. I happen to think Snowden did the world a service, and certainly said nothing about disdian, but why not lie about my statements and accuse me of "hate messages" further to push a point? I stand behind beligernet and my other expressed opinions. I'll be unwatching now, so if anyone has questions, please talk page me. μηδείς (talk) 03:02, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• 331 dot, you openly attacked me, in the main section, with a false quote that added to my original quote to misrepresent my position on something, in an attempt to mock me. It wasnt insulting. It was silly. I posted you a copy of the reuters journalists handbook, pertaining to properly quoting a subject, and that led to your friend calling me combative and confrontational. What did you want me to do? You were literally lying about me, in front of me, and I was laughing at this cultish hive mind sillyness. I would ordinarily say "grow up" but I didn't want to be personally insulting. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 02:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• μηδείς - "10 comments by him, six uses of the word irrational to describe other editors, and at most 2-3 comments in response to him by any other single editor. The user should be warned, and I think an SPI is warranted, given his behavior quacks like a previously blocked editor." Another characteristic baseless and categorically incorrect personal attack. I said that a guy revulsion of snowden, seemed to be an irrational consensus, given his picture is on the story in the CNN, BBC, Reuters, AJZ, Fox news, ABC, accounts of the Pulitzer prize awards. I didnt call individuals irrational, but the revulsion of snowden, in the context of a story relplete with his image, potentially an irrational consensus. I think sought an admin opinion. And again you are accusing me of being a previously banned troll in essence, and making nasty comments about me. None of this is warranted by anything I've done or said to you. You simply chose to hate on the new comer. I read this trash, and its baseless and incorrect, and I remain calm about it, and you just get further upset. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 02:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Not only did you call people irrational, but you compared opponents of your position to "3 men and a dog" here. 331dot (talk) 02:48, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

When Medeis posts unhelpful nonsense in that thread like "Nothing against Snowden actually, but if I never see his or Miley Cyrus's mugs again...", we can't complain about someone calling it irrational. To me, it seemed there was also pretty strong evidence that some editors' posts WERE influenced by a dislike of Snowden. That too is irrational, by the literal definition of that word. 77.'s behaviour has certainly not been ideal, but several other editors were behaving less than ideally too. "Let he who is without sin", etc. HiLo48 (talk) 03:18, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• That isn't what I did at all, but it is clearly useless to press that point. But go ahead and keep demonstrating the qualities that everyone else is ascribing to you. 331dot (talk) 02:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• 331dot, both of us have legitimate right to contend things that are said about us, that we dont like. Only one of us is assuming to talk for "everyone else" and only one of us is misquoting people and then making personal attacks. Do you not see how that could be construed as arrogant, and misplaced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.41.108 (talk) 02:45, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• No, I don't, because it wasn't. I know what I did; you are not inside my mind. I also do not claim to speak for others. I still have yet to see evidence of the "personal attack" that I made against you. I have never called you a name, and if I did, I will gladly and sincerely apologize. 331dot (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• My opinion is that 77's contributions are in good faith, but mostly unproductive. Whenever someone tries to explain to him that X is not the way we do things, he insists his way is right and just throws up wall of text after wall of text until the other user moves on. His behavior is annoying most of the ITN regulars and doing himself absolutely no favors in getting what he wants. I suggest he voluntarily start listening the the abundance of advice he has received. --ThaddeusB (talk) 02:34, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I have no personal issue with you thaddeus, but I do feel you are trying to force consensus sometimes and are using some of your less than savoury friends as a handle to do so. I took no great joy in seeing you and μηδείς passing little hate messages on your wall about me, after we had a good debate about the NCAA thing and were working together on something. The main issue here is that you cant have 4 or 5 people defining what wikipedia deems notable and functioning as a bloc of regulars to chase away any dissension from your POV. Thats not how this site is designed. I dont think its how this site is meant to function, and it speaks ill to hear that you have a mentality that will attack or disrupt others efforts on the grounds of personal distaste, rather than being able to work on objective dispassionate merits. This is not my social group or my friendship group. I am helping you guys out here, at no cost and no end of personal patience. I am not invading your territory. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 02:53, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Please show what "hate messages" are being posted about you. We want more people on ITN, but we want them to work in the right way, which you are not. 331dot (talk) 03:00, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Believe it or not, I've been trying to help you. What you call me trying to enforce my view, I call trying to inform you of the existing consensus based norms. And yes, two people did post on my talk page to urge me to calm down and "stop feeding the trolls" to which I agreed. If you want to call that a hate note, OK, but let me remind you that it was you who repeatedly called me a bigot w/o knowing anything about me (before I went out of my way to show it is not true.) --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Also, since those notes I have tried very hard to be nice to you by writing an article at your request, and not commenting on your behavior other than to try to give you some pointers. I have not said one thing the least bit personal on ITN after that initial confrontation. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

This whole exchange is 4 or 5 disgruntled posters making personal attacks, and them complaining when I defend myself. Thats basically been their MO since I first decided to take some time out to contribute to wikipedia. I do not want you to try hard to be nice to me. I havent sought your friendship, or in any way harassed you to that end. I simply would ask to act like a professional, and an adult and not to team up in a little hive attacking people who disagree with you. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 03:18, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I have been nothing but courteous and professional to you since the initial exchange where you repeatedly called me a bigot and I got upset. Offering you advice on how things work does not mean I am "teaming up in a little hive attacking people who disagree with me". --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:28, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It was you who started the personal talk in that initial exchange, and I responded poorly. However you have for the most part been fine. You do seem to think I should defer my own opinion to you somewhat, and I have no idea why.

Like I said before, I have no issue with you though and we have indeed worked together at times. I quite enjoyed working with you and found you to be conscientious and someone who had a good eye for detail. I understood why you were so into the NCAA thing when I read your bio out of curiosity, and I found it quite adorable really. Unfortunately, μηδείς is absolutely abhorrent in his or her actions and attitude, 331 dot is acting like a hive mind king of narnia, and the other two seem to be tagging along for the right. I have little to do with them, and it seems they are literally phone a friend guys.

Its not personal, but we all have opinions and the right to express them. I think its cute when people try to form little logic bloc and harass others for disagreeing with them, but unfortunately it logic simply doesnt work that way. Only mad people use the universal We when talking about themselves and a couple of friends, in allusion to the internet, or wikipedia.

I understand that you expect me to defer to your friendship group in debates on things and to falsely attest to a consensus on things that I do not share. But unfortunately I cant do that.

As to the format, Ive pretty much learned it. As to the rules, I would say that I already follow the basic wikipedia rules as it says on its advertising. I do not instigate personal abuse and comments and do my best to avoid them.

You simply can not ask me to agree with you, when I do not agree with you on things, and I can not apologise if that upsets you or hurts your feelings. Its not personal. I dont know any of you, and I honestly think you should probably find healthier pursuits than trying to own a website section on wikipedia. Like I said, im not here to feed into your friendship group, or to hatefully snipe on people I dont know.

My bad if Ive upset you by not agreeing with you at times, but the personal comments and personal abuse that created this complaint, has been categorically initiated by you guys.

Have a good one. 77.101.41.108 (talk) 03:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't expect you to defer to my opinion. I have given you advice on the community accepted norms of behavior at ITN, none of which are "my opinion". I don't understand why you are so bothered by me giving you advice. Again, I was trying to help you. Even in this very thread I said I think you are acting in good faith, need to learn our behavioral norms (i.e take the advice you've been given.) You are annoying people - not because of your opinions - but because of the need to debate every tiny point ad nausem. Like someone above said, roughly half the comments on ITN are yours. Writing so much does not help your cause(s) - for the most part it hurts your chances as people stop reading what you write. Make your point, maybe reply briefly to point out errors in other arguments a couple times, then let it go. --ThaddeusB (talk) 03:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Blocked for 31 hours. The personal attacks here and elsewhere are enough, but the disruption at ITN is clearly getting in the way of getting work done. IP 77 is put on notice: when this block runs out, they need to be more reticent in their posts on ITN. Drmies (talk) 03:48, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

As I suspected above, the user is not new, but a sock puppet, given the priority of this abusive proxy account. μηδείς (talk) 04:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Came here to start a discussion and found one well under way. As with others, I'm ready to believe that this editor is editing in good faith, just needs to learn some civility. Much of his contributions are constructive, so long as no-one disagrees or questions what he has done. As soon as anyone does, the discussion quickly turns to self-justification, obscenity, obstruction, nit-picking and rank abuse. I have tried to point this out gently, but got nowhere, eg interaction; after an abusive, sarcastic taunting of another editor, I gently directed him to the civility policy; the response was self-justification, further abuse of the other editor, obscenity and a request that I "learn some manners." Other examples in ITN/C:

• "You need to work on your table manners and being able to adequately articulate a sentence, before talking s--- in my ear, about your petty little issues. ... Be polite next time, and type in proper English and then I might actually take you seriously, son." - responding to a fairly civil comment.
• "would appreciate if you followed the basic directives of assuming good faith and not being a rude POS" - again, in response to simple disagreement, not incivility.
• "I,feel,like im conversing with,a man city fan or...perhaps william shatner." - bordering on racism (if you count Mancunians)
• "Purveyor of snideness."
• "331dot - I pointed out from the b--- start how important this story was, and ran into a transatlantic firewall of ignorance, thank you very much. A f--- city burned down and BBC and Reuters were leading with it." - obscenity is obscenity, even when largely blanked out.
• "One can only guess at what the BBC and Reuters were doing, by calling this news...Set them straight "Jayron". Your comedy will be much appreciated at Canary wharf."
• "I linked a BBC and Reuters article that all mentioned sanctions and all call it news, and someone edits this out of the header, keeps the sources (as its BBC and Reuters)and white washes the story. What is this s---."
• Not to mention the wall of text on the NCAA nomination.

Sorry, the diffs are too many and to difficult to ferret out on such a busy page to link them all. The above quotes are on the current ITN/C page as I post this. To give some idea of the difficulty, this user has 120 edits just to ITN/C in the past 24 hours, even having been blocked for 9 of those hours. GoldenRing (talk) 11:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'd just like to add that I also believe this IP user started out in good faith in what they believe is an attempt to improve decision making and promote more variation in stories posted to ITN but the battleground mentality is just completely the wrong way to go about it and it is disruptive to me personally. My understanding of the process is that each editor should offer a support/oppose on the original nomination and provide their reasons. It's not a debate between participants, it's up to the closing administrator to decide on consensus based on the strength of the arguments. I often read what other editors have said before I make my own mind up but the constant walls of text and off-topic discussion recently posted by this user make it very difficult to follow. To IP 77.101.41.108 - just dial it back a bit, keep things simple and make a single post with your view about a nomination. Leave other user's opinions to themselves, it's not a debate. I congratulate you on getting at least 1 story onto the main page, that's the kind of user that will be much more accepted. CaptRik (talk) 12:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Watching the discussion over the past few days, I've been seeing ad hominem attacks on both sides. Experienced editors should remember that IP users and newbies are not second-class citizens, are entitled to their views; are welcome and encouraged to edit Misplaced Pages, and should not be made to feel unwelcome or bitten (especially since the biggest problem facing WP right now is editor recruitment and retention); 77.101.41.108 needs to realise they're acting defensively, take a chill pill and come back in a few days when the adrenaline has died down. Sometimes the easiest way to deal with unfair criticism is to ignore it. Just my $0.02. Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 12:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It is true that other editors have not been as restrained as they ought, but I don't think you can paint this as equal offense on both sides. GoldenRing (talk) 09:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Balaenoptera musculus I can't speak for others, but I had no problem with the user giving their views(nor did I personally attack them, unlike them calling me a "hive mind king of narnia" above), but the manner in which they were given and the attitude displayed by the user(who is not a newcomer as shown above). They were given advice and assistance several times (mostly by ThaddeusB) and that failed to change their behavior. 331dot (talk) 09:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• If you don't want to be "hive mind king of narnia" then can I claim that title? Or is it something you have to be nominated for? Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 11:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I think WP:RFC/A would be the right place to start with this. Or possibly WP:FTN. GoldenRing (talk) 14:44, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Administrator needed on Talk:Sluggish cognitive tempo

There's a bit of a complicated situation happening over at Talk:Sluggish cognitive tempo. I'd like to ask for some admin attention because I'm not sure how to resolve these issues with respect to some WP:BLP concerns raised by RussellBarkley, who has identified himself as a expert and researcher on this topic. In brief:

• The New York Times published an article which questions the validity of the topic and also makes claims on the financial interests and relationship that Dr. Barkley has in relation to this phenomenon.
• Recently, much of this content has been incorporated in a new "Controversy" section (which probably needs to be shortened or incorporated elsewhere on the article given this is the only article so far that evaluates this controversy).
• The editor contests many of the claims made in the article, and has elaborated on why those claims are inaccurate here, here, and on his talk page. It's possible some of these claims, if false, may rise to the level of defamation, though there are no reliable sources that contradict these claims as of yet.
• The editor has also made substantial contributions to the article, and IMO, contains a mix of constructive and problematic content. This issue has already been raised here at WP:COIN. I have asked the editor to restrict their edits to the talk page.

Anyway, if an admin could look over these issues and lend a hand, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, I, JethroBT 02:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

RussellBarkley also seem to be making legal threats "If such statements are not revised, I would not be surprised if Misplaced Pages will be hearing from the Legal Department of Eli Lilly".  Tigerboy1966  07:02, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Russell Barkley has now retracted the legal threats. Most of the "Controversy" of the article was unsourced, and the part of it which claimed to be sourced misrepresented the source in some significant respects, and made at least one statement which was clearly untrue. I have therefore removed the section, and posted to the talk page of the editor who created it, explaining the need for reliable sources for potentially controversial statements about a living person. It may well be, however, that part of the content of the section was valid. If so, then anyone willing to take the time and trouble can sort the wheat from the chaff and restore that part of the content with suitable reliable sources to support it. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 14:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Accusation of bad faith

User:Aprock has accused other editors and myself of acting in bad faith here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Category:Organizations_designated_as_hate_groups_by_the_SPLC stating: 'Unfortunately, category (and template) abuse has become one of the holes in current process of curating content. When POV pushers cannot get their content into the main body of the article, they often turn to these less monitored alternatives to present their own agenda'. This is a outrageous allegation. He has been unable to justify it. At the other forum here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_April_12#Category:Organizations_designated_as_hate_groups_by_the_SPLC he is also taking peoples comments out of context and being disruptive. This is occurring due to a discussion about the Category:Organisations designated as hate groups by the SPLC. The SPLC is widely recognised as a reliable academic source: https://en.wikipedia.org/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center#cite_note-McVeigh-106 https://en.wikipedia.org/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center#cite_note-Chalmers-107 https://en.wikipedia.org/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center#cite_note-Barnett-108 https://en.wikipedia.org/Southern_Poverty_Law_Center#cite_note-109 In addition, the SPLC works with the FBI: 'The FBI has partnered with the SPLC "to establish rapport, share information, address concerns, and cooperate in solving problems"' As long as the article of the 'hate group' contains a citation of the specific claim by the SPLC that the group is a hate group, I can't see how the category itself violates WP:NPOV because we are not endorsing the SPLC's view - we are simply reporting it. LordFixit (talk) 04:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Support this comment - Unfortunately, category (and template) abuse has become one of the holes in current process of curating content. When POV pushers cannot get their content into the main body of the article, they often turn to these less monitored alternatives to present their own agenda'. - this seems like the worst of the wiki en project - overly opinionated contributors using the wiki to promote their opinions supported by off wiki opinionated outlets - bias supported by bias - presented as if WP:NPOV, the very worst kind. Mosfetfaser (talk) 06:55, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Mosfetfaser is an editor who has been involved in the discussions. LordFixit (talk) 07:35, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

And? so? I made a single contribution to the discussion only after stumbling on this thread - see here for my additions - https://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Mosfetfaser - Mosfetfaser (talk) 07:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• The issue appears to concern Category:Organizations designated as hate groups by the SPLC (a category recently created by the OP, now nominated for deletion). The discussion at NPOVN has a very moderate comment by aprock with the opinion that subjects should not be labeled as "hate groups" via a backdoor method such as an arbitrary category (it's arbitrary because whereas it's known that the Southern Poverty Law Center#SPLC study very disagreeable groups, there is no scholarly and neutral definition of "hate group" suitable for a defining property). Aprock then suggested that comments about NPOV issues should be at NPOVN, but LordFixit's response was to claim that no issues had been raised, and this ANI report was apparently their only substantive response. If no further evidence is forthcoming, a minor WP:BOOMERANG should be applied to the OP. @LordFixit: there is nothing in Aprock's comment that warrants attention here; this project requires reasonably robust discussion, and anyone wanting to apply a "hate group" category on various articles should be prepared to engage in detailed discussion on the issue. Johnuniq (talk) 07:19, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

To accuse someone of acting in bad faith and being biased in wrong, unless you have clear evidence. The SPLC is widely regarded as a reliable academic source. I am not endorsing the classification of any group as a hate group, nor does the category. It simply reports on the classification. The category does not breach WP:NPOV. It does not endorse the classification, it simply reports it like Category:United Kingdom Home Office designated terrorist groups or European Union designated terrorist organizations LordFixit (talk) 07:35, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

So stop accusing Aprock of acting in bad faith. Ow , and me, because I made a single comment Mosfetfaser (talk) 07:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Concerning the first comment in the thread: every AGF has some limits. The disputed comment was critical of some things, but most definitely not a formal personal assault. I for one am not assuming much good faith from users who try to smear UKIP as far-right or even 'racist' (''). The guy is obviously out at filing some kind of spurious thread against anyone he disagrees with (e.g. he claims I have a conflict of interest concerning UKIP, though I'm not even a Brit).Lokalkosmopolit (talk) 11:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The country you live in does not determine whether you have a conflict of interest. Your actions and words do such as your support for the English Defence League and your attacks on Islam and Muslims. Reliable, academic sources define UKIP as far-right. How is that a 'smear'? If anyone wishes to see what he means, please look here: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest/Noticeboard#User:Lokalkosmopolit_and_far-right.2C_racist_groups LordFixit (talk) 11:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

They do? I'd imagine "reliable academic sources" would see the British National Party as being more representative of the "far right" in UK Politics. But hey, we seem to have strayed onto content. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages user contacts press to discuss controversial move request.

After looking at the updated progress at WP:ANRFC (I mentioned a large backlog in a message above), I read through the contentious debate at Cannabis (drug). The user Msnicki is not satisfied with the outcome and she has begun a move review (is it any wonder that administrators are reluctant to close these requests?). After reading through the evidence, I placed my opinion on the page. I also noticed a link on Misplaced Pages to an online article, where Msnicki has contacted the press to give her opinions about the discussion. There is ominous language here, including threats to continue the discussion indefinitely. I have provided the link at WP:Move review/Log/2014 April and copied the relevant details. Since I am concerned about this matter, I thought it would be best to inform administrators here. 86.170.98.9 (talk) 16:11, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I would just like to make it clear that I am not requesting any kinds of sanctions. I am just concerned about the approach taken and felt, for reasons of openness and clarity, that it should be reported in case any actions are necessary. I have no personal involvement in the discussion other than the judgement I posted on the move request page and I do not have any strong opinions, other than general concerns, about what should be done. 86.170.98.9 (talk) 17:08, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

3 words: absolutely; fricking; unacceptable. WP:NOTHERE has now raised its ugly head ES&L 16:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Hmm, it does look like somebody whose sense of priorities is a bit off, but I don't really think it's any kind of sanctionable misbehaviour. It's not like she publicly denigrated any of her opponents or attempted to create real-life problems for them, or even just to canvass outside voters, nor does it seem as if it had any significant effect on the course of the further debate, did it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

(ecx2) I appreciate your intention in bringing this here, but it's not that big of a deal. The worst fallout from that action would be for a number of anonymous editors or newly-created single-purpose accounts to try to sway the discussion. That hasn't happened, and even if it did, since such discussions aren't "votes" they would be unlikely to alter the course of the debate anyway. I don't see any direct canvassing going on and editors are free to do whatever they want outside of Misplaced Pages. I prefer to keep my on-wiki and off-wiki lives separate (and definitely don't like what I do here ending up in the press in any form) but other people aren't so inclined, and I don't fault people for it. -- Atama頭 16:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Msnicki agreed to the policies and processes of Misplaced Pages when she signed up. "Going to the press to bitch about it" is not one of those processes ES&L 16:48, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not aware of a "don't go to the press" policy. Really, it's not uncommon for editors to discuss on-wiki issues with the press, sometimes with infamous results. It's not exactly canvassing either, I don't see anything in the article that encourages people to come to the discussion to intervene (nor did I see that the story even suggested that people could). Editors often discuss on-wiki things on their own blogs, is it any more harmful to do it through a journalist's blog? (That's what this was, this wasn't an actual newspaper story or anything, not that it would be much worse if it was.) I don't really see what is all that objectionable about it. Maybe it's a bit self-promotional, but so what? -- Atama頭 17:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I dont see a problem - would even be good if it had generated new interest in the topic and thus new editors (does not look like it has). Perhaps the results of the poll will help resolve any concerns Msnicki has about our process getting it wrong. -- Moxy (talk) 18:34, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I think "don't go to the press" is a given. Misplaced Pages is not the 'fairness encyclopedia'. Our policies are designed to attempt to gain neutrality and facts. Ironically, the modern mainstream media no longer works under the same principal and we rarely, if ever, receive fair coverage. They don't understand our policies and our goals and they arn't interested in understanding either. It's more important that we do what's fair or 'right'. Msnicki specifically choose a pot related column to express her angst at. According to WP:CANVASS, she choose her audience and that's called 'votestacking'. That's against guidelines.--v/r - TP 19:02, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I would agree it was not the best course of action, but I dont see how we can expect our editors not to vent freely. There are whole sites dedicated to this fact (wikipediocracy). We will have to expect that frustrated editors will look for validation in other places. In this case it may even provided a third party prospective from the "pot" community of Seattle. I see no behaviour that would warrant any sanctions by the community - at most there is just a loss of confidence in the editors ability to have an amicable resolution and respect the community processes. -- Moxy (talk) 19:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It's only canvassing if you're asking people to intervene. Any canvassing would have been indirect, I see nothing from Msnicki asking people to participate in the discussion (even in a neutral tone). It's also difficult to figure out how much of what's in the blog post was her idea, and how much was the blog author's idea. In any event, if Msnicki was attempting to get support for the discussion it backfired. No new support showed up and the poll in the blog was overwhelmingly against her. In any case, I don't see how our canvassing policy was violated, you need to show that it was "done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way" and that's probably impossible to prove here. -- Atama頭 19:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Just remember that even if the user mentions their real name in the press in order to promote their POV, to then mention on Misplaced Pages the name the user has freely given in the press, is "oouting" and will get you desysopped and possibly banned altogether. Guy (Help!) 23:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • No, linking the user's real name to their Misplaced Pages name where they have not already done so in public would be outing. Doing it after they have already linked it in public and on Misplaced Pages is not outing. And everything in between is a grey area that we've never been able to develop a consensus on and Arbcom hasn't settled either so chill your silly threats. You continue to be one of the least policy-informed administrators I've ever met and I continue to laugh at you when you make black-and-white threats. We don't operate on a zero-tolerance policy on Misplaced Pages, we treat each case individually and based on it's own merits. And for what? No one here has linked to that article. What has your threat done at all here?--v/r - TP 23:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
    • It's definitely a grey area. Msnicki volunteered her real life identity, connected to her Misplaced Pages identity, as she freely admits: "I gave him my real name and contact information but did not identify which of the comments were mine. I heard nothing from him until 27 February, when he sent mail asking if he could interview me on the phone and if I would be willing to be identified." The reason why this is a grey area is because our harassment policy allows us to mention personal information volunteered on the project. But she has said on Misplaced Pages (as I just quoted) that she allowed herself to be identified there, so is that equivalent? I honestly don't know. Frankly, I wouldn't want to be the person to bravely step forward and test the theory, and I would advise against anyone else doing it; I think doing so could be controversial and would at the very least lead to some kind of drama-filled argument at the Village Pump or the Harassment Policy talk page or here at ANI or someplace. So I wouldn't be the person to do it. -- Atama頭 23:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Also, I read Guy's comment here as a bit tongue-in-cheek, an allusion to people overreacting on ANI (which is unfortunately all too common). An instant de-sysop and site ban for a borderline outing situation is unlikely at the least and I'm sure he knows that. :) -- Atama頭 23:44, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
      • My comment was a response to this thread on Jimbo's talk page. I mistakenly thought it was Guy I was arguing with there but it was actually Guy Macon. I was channeling anger meant for someone else. @JzG: I'm sorry, my comments were because I thought you were the same 'Guy' who argued with me about policy just a couple weeks ago. That wasn't meant for you and I regret my hostility.--v/r - TP 03:22, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

No problem. It is however not a hypothetical or hyperbolic thing: someone I always considered an awesome Wikipedian was summarily banned for mentioning a real-world identity that had been openly admitted by a Misplaced Pages user off-site - and indeed that user had made the link while using media contacts to try to further their on-wiki agenda. So my advice to anyone is not to name a real world identity unless it's openly admitted on Misplaced Pages itself, even where the user is blatantly using external websites and contacts to try to further an agenda antithetical to Misplaced Pages's policies. Now, I'm sure the case I have in mind was slightly more nuanced than it seems to an outsider, but that is how it appeared to me. If in doubt, email ArbCom and seek counsel from them. Guy (Help!) 09:25, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Recommend blocking of Msnicki. This is absolutely unacceptable. An admin wades into a severely backlogged area, makes a good-faith closure, and we have this editor verbally abusing them and threatening further disruption? This is the kind of thing that is responsible for the direct decline in editorship and active adminship, and should be nipped in the bud.

• Where did the editor verbally abuse the closing admin, or threaten further disruption? Stating that you still want to get an article moved is no more threatening further disruption than it would be to take an article to AfD after someone contested a proposed deletion. And asking to review an RfC closure isn't disruption in the first place, otherwise we wouldn't have that process. -- Atama頭 13:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Here and in the move review, Msnicki refers to the closing admin as "non-serious", impugns his motives, and suggests that he's taken admin actions without proper research. This is verbal abuse and bullying of a volunteer. In the blog she participated in she indicated her intention to keep dragging this through our processes since she doesn't like the results she's gotten. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 13:37, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Related to what Spike Wilbury has said, we have this problem at WP:ANRFC: there are huge delays on even less controversial discussions because administrators are reluctant to close them. I mentioned this above at WP:ANI#Large backlog at WP:ANRFC. The user who closed this discussion, TLSuda, responded there that it is not pleasant to close these discussions and another user also predicted the backlash we have seen from Msnicki here. The question is how we can get these discussions closed promptly. Three administrators volunteered readily to close the (extremely long) discussion at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton, yet we now have Talk:Pablo Casals and Talk:British Isles waiting at WP:ANRFC for many weeks without any kind of assessment. The best I can think of is having a system like the feedback review service, where administrators volunteer to close discussions and these discussions are randomly assigned. The more controversial discussions could be assigned to multiple administrators to reduce the chances of move reviews. 81.135.61.62 (talk) 13:18, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Cup of tea time. Msnicki appears to have done nothing egregious, and a block would appear to be punitive as I doubt she will iterate any attacks, if they were attacks. Collect (talk) 13:37, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Have you been here long? Msnicki has publicly declared that she intends to continue this battle. She has attacked at least the last two administrators that dared closed something against her wishes. After Dpmuk closed a move review, she told him he phoned it in and that reversing his decision was the "only sensible choice". The next admin was TLSuda, who was told he didn't take it seriously and asked to step aside for, seemingly, a better admin. So she has an established pattern of disruption and personal attacks against people she disagrees with, and has stated the intention to continue. What exactly instills doubt in your case? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 13:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'm not unsympathetic to TLSuda, I defended him in the move review, and I know how rough it is to close RfCs (you almost always have someone who dislikes how you closed it no matter how you do it). I wouldn't mind some changes to the process that make it easier on admins, not to make decisions unimpeachable or to quash criticisms (because admins definitely screw them up sometimes) but we should be able to do something. They take a lot of time and effort and when it's done it can feel like nobody appreciates it. But having said all that, I see no personal attacks (questioning a person's actions isn't an attack, if you think otherwise, look at avoiding personal attacks where it states that comments "should be directed at content and actions rather than people"). As I said, administrator actions aren't above reproach (although I do defend the actions of both TLSuda and Dpmuk who I think did a commendable job). If we start blocking people for criticizing administrators without actually breaking policies, then Misplaced Pages really is as bad as the most rabid detractors claim it is. -- Atama頭 17:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I don't know. It's not that fine of a line between constructive criticism and just calling into question the competency of every admin who performs an action you disagree with. If we accommodate this behavior and editors and admins start avoiding this editor, this topic area, or this project, what have we really won? The peanut gallery is silent, and everyone is cowed? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I agree that, in theory, if an editor questioned every single action made by administrators that would be tendentious, and could eventually lead to a block. But in my experience a person need to take it to the extreme, making a huge stink and turning it into a disruptive campaign, and then they aren't even blocked until a community ban is implemented at AN. I won't name names, but I've experienced it (I even implemented such a ban personally earlier this year, based on an overwhelming consensus at AN). I don't see that Msnicki has come close to that yet. She's being tenacious about this issue (not tendentious) but I think the proper response for now is to simply support how Dpmuk and TLSuda did the closures (which is what I see happening at the move review). If she escalates the issue, a note about keeping things civil and a request to not abuse equines might be warranted. But I'll note that Msnicki responded calmly to my opinion here, indicating that she's accepting of the result now. She did repeat that she was dissatisfied with TLSuda's language in the closure, but she's entitled to her opinion about that. Again, I do sympathize with the closers in this case and it guilts me a little into trying to help with the ANRFC backlog myself (though I've been stretched thin as it is, trying to help with the SPI backlog in addition to the other areas I normally handle). -- Atama頭 19:42, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Update: user attacks WP:ANI editors. The below is taken from User talk:Atama:

I appreciate your remarks in my defense at ANI, especially as I have no stomach for it. If you'd like to find people quick to personal attack because they confuse attacks on behavior or arguments as attacks on the person, look no further than ANI. It is as if they think they have some diplomatic immunity there to behave in exactly the ways they insist are simply intolerable and must be dealt with (severely!) at once. Any non-admin unlucky enough to be hauled to ANI for any reason whatsoever can always bet on having their motives impugned (for allegedly impugning others') on evidence best described as mind-reading and to face calls to ban the person rather than focus on the behavior, especially where the behavior is merely a different opinion they don't like. It's a place where there's endless concern that someone has wasted time by pursuing whatever they consider a frivolous issue but always lots of time to pick through someone's edit history to see if there's anything else to complain about. It's simply crawling with the most angry, judgmental and thoroughly hypocritical people to be found anywhere. Anyway, thank you for your comments, especially as I really had no interest in going there.

Given this further behaviour, I suggest that a temporary block might be suitable for Msnicki to calm down and to come back with a calmer approach. 81.135.61.62 (talk) 21:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

LOL, Msnicki was making a general statement about the noticeboard, and I think you somewhat proved her point here. :) She said people "confuse attacks on behavior or arguments as attacks on the person", and you took that general statement as a personal attack. Am I the only one finding humor in this? (By the way, I'm not meaning this to be snide in any way, I'm honestly amused at the irony.) If we are to assume that she is accusing everyone who participates at ANI as being "angry, judgmental and thoroughly hypocritical people" then she would have meant me as well (I comment here regularly) which seems odd if she's also thanking me. Her opinions about ANI are fairly widely-held, and even I who don't hate this noticeboard (otherwise I'd never post here) see some truth in it (though I'm much less pessimistic, and I've also seen improvement over the years). -- Atama頭 22:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of Msnicki in this thread, but that quotation is a pretty good description of what ANI is.--v/r - TP 23:18, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Bundy standoff

Bundy standoff needs some supervision by experienced editors. It is attracting editors with strong political beliefs which are becoming evident in the article. — goethean 16:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest we consider including this article under the Tea Party movement Arbcom sanctions. However, at this time I don't see a strong enough connection. There was participation by the Tea Party movement but I think we'd need a source tying Clive Bundy to the tea party to wrap this under those sanctions. That or Arbcom finishes up on the Gun Control case.--v/r - TP 17:54, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It looks like the Tea Party has been involving itself in the case, whether Bundy's involved with them or not, so the sanctions would apply. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:02, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a good point. This is clearly a Tea Party golden egg and is going to attract the proponents and opponents that were involved in the Tea Party case.--v/r - TP 18:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay...sorry for making a comment on your territory? — goethean 18:09, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Take it easy, goethean, please. Drmies (talk) 19:29, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even sure who that's directed at. Goethean, are you responding to me or Sarek and what specifically are you responding to?--v/r - TP 19:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Whoever is watching over this, please also keep an eye on Federal lands. I am generally not around these days, and the article seems to have drawn some attention related to this Bundy matter. bd2412 T 01:02, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Possible system gaming

I was earlier alerted to a discussion at Template talk:Location map Israel by it being posted on WikiProject talk page. Having looked into it in a bit more depth, it would appear that it goes back to a dispute over File:Israel location map.svg. This, as far as I can see, did not end in any form of consensus. However, from what I understand/have been told, an editor on the pro-change side has created a new map, and redirected existing displays of the old map to the new one. This seems to me to be a classic gaming of the system, so I think much wider input is required at the discussion in question to look into this in more depth and to reach a conclusion which is not slanted in favour of whichever side of the Israel-Palestinian debate has the most editors. Cheers, Number 57 18:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

You should have informed me of this WP:AN/I and I was even not aware of the discussion at Template talk:Location map Israel. I have just seen a discussion on Yhockey's talk page.

I add that I am not pro-change. Change seems obvious to me. Golan and East-Jerusalem are not in Israel and the border was badly located.

Pluto2012 (talk) 18:23, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Why should I have informed you? You are not anything to do with the current discussion. Number 57 18:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I understand. When you wrote "an editor on the pro-change side has created a new map", I thought that you was talking about me. I did exactly the same totally independantly on another map.

Pluto2012 (talk) 18:36, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The dispute occured at commons, where consensus and npov have no effect on user uploads, not en.wiki.. Many editors have stated that the old map violated en.wikis NPOV and thus had to be removed. What concerns me is why Number57 came to ANI rather than to my talkpage where several editors are discussing creating npov maps. Sepsis II (talk) 18:25, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I have brought the issue up here to seek input beyond the usual cohort of editors whose stances on issues can be predicted with almost as much certainty as the tides. I am not sure why having more people involved in the discussion is a bad thing. Number 57 18:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

What type of administrator actions are you asking for exactly? Sepsis II (talk) 18:39, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Involvement in the discussion mainly. A lot of non-admins watch this board too. Number 57 18:42, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

It's just people genuinely trying to make the encyclopedia better. It usually is. It's probably better to stay focused on the forest rather than be distracted by the trees. These maps need to be fixed at some point and anyone willing to try should be commended, even if they make mistakes along the way. The fact that the issues are being discussed again is a good thing, whatever caused that to happen. The maps have been a source of low level conflict for years, for obvious reasons. People should collaborate in good faith to achieve an outcome that complies with policy and stay focused on finding a solution. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:06, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Eyes needed at Christopher Ferrara AfD, puppetry & SPAs

• Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Christopher Ferrara

I fear we're about to be set upon by outside interests intent on propping up the bio of one of their own, as several "new" accounts have shown up, an IP posting on behalf of an outside person, and so on. This is connected to the recently-recreated Neo-Catholicism article, and the push to keep that in article-space. Tarc (talk) 23:01, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• About to be? Yeah, Tarc and I are on different sides of the discussion itself (only just) but I agree entirely that the sudden influx of non-policy contributions is unhelpful. Suggest that the debate perhaps be semi-protected. It has already been re-listed once so a brave admin may simply elect to close the discussion one way or the other (without presuming to suggest which way). I'm also concerned about the entirely unjustified attacks on Tarc as the nominator. I might not agree entirely with his rationale but suggestions of bias are unfounded. Secondary issue but it seems to be something the "new" contributors have latched onto. Stalwart111 05:42, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Dorje Shugden Controversy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi, I'm having problems with an editor on the Dorje Shugden Controversy page. I have tried to improve the introduction of the article which is at the moment very one sided and certainly not WP:NPOV but although I've proposed my change on the talk page and it contains WP:RS I've had my changes reverted repeatedly by Heicth who refuses to offer constructive comments or engage in a collaborative effort to improve the article. He's stopping me from editing. What can be done please? Truthsayer62 (talk) 08:58, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Why haven't you taken up my suggestion to go to WP:DRN? Dougweller (talk) 10:42, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Because Heicth has been particularly obstructive and objects to me trying to edit the article in any way even with WP:RS. I have tried to collaborate but he refuses. Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and such freedom is important. Truthsayer62 (talk) 13:49, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

The manipulation of Misplaced Pages by New Kadampa cult editors is explained on the Talk:New Kadampa Tradition page and the user page of Kt66. While 3 users (Kt66, Chris Fynn and myself) were patiently discussing, agreeing and editing the article in a careful manner, Truthsayer62 deleted most of the academic material in the article. Also note the shenanigans of other New Kadampa editors. Now on the Talk:Dorje Shugden Controversy talk page, he just creates new threads to obscure previous discussion while completely lying about the nature of his edits. If this user has his own way (despite recent consensus), we will see the deletion of academic references and the use of NKT blogs as references. Heicth (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

I rest my case. Heicth is uncooperative. He clearly doesn't want to improve the article. The other editors he mentions are sympathetic to his view of the controversy so of course they are going to agree. How is it possible to improve the article with alternative reliably sourced view points when one editor guards the article and refuses to allow the inclusion of material that he doesn't agree with?Truthsayer62 (talk) 18:21, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages editing decisions operate by consensus. If the discussion is between you (1 person) and those of a different opinion (more than 1), at best, it will be a stalemate. The best thing you can do is go to the article talk page and persuasively argue why your edits are an improvement. Win other editors over with your logical argument and reliable sources. Consensus rules and if, should you gain consensus, an editor still is obstinate, the next step is dispute resolution WP:DRN, not AN/I. This isn't a forum to come to get editors you disagree to change their minds or get blocked. Content disputes get resolved on article talk pages and, should that fail, dispute resolution forums. Liz 20:44, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Liz, does it seem right that one person on one side of a controversy should aggressively protect an article from the inclusion of WP:RS that would improve the article and make it more balanced, fair and accurate? I'm not being protectionist, my edit is fair and includes both sides of the controversy, stating views that I myself do not accept. If it takes days and days of effort to make one change to a Misplaced Pages article because of one editor's intransigence, people will stop taking an interest in Misplaced Pages and the quality of the articles will suffer as a result. For one person to block change cannot be fair and to be lone voice of one side of the controversy makes getting consensus extremely difficult. The article remains biased and inaccurate while one person protects that inaccuracy. Heicth is insulting and refuses to collaborate or change the article. Truthsayer62 (talk) 19:11, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Truthsayer62, for better or worse, Misplaced Pages admins do not make conduct decisions on what you or I (or anyone) thinks is "right" but what WP policy and guidelines support or forbid. I agree that editors shouldn't own articles and prevent other editors from contributing but unless there is disruptive editing going on (like edit warring or personal attacks), gaining consensus for your proposed changes on the article talk page is best way to go because you'll have that support backing your change. That advice goes for any editor. If you want to push the issue further, you can launch an WP:RfC but those only tend to resolve disputes if there is a fair amount of editors participating (say, a dozen) and I'm not sure how many people are working on this article. Liz 20:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Liz, I understand. At the moment there are only really three other editors on the article, all go whom share a particular view of this controversy. What is the procedure if an individual or even a group of people are attached to their views and actively oppose changes to an article? What if consensus cannot be gained or edits are blocked? Does that mean that the article has to remain one sided? Truthsayer62 (talk) 15:18, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks once again Liz. By the way, Truthsayer62 is again lying. It is not just me opposing him. User:CFynn just addressed him on the article's talk page.Heicth (talk) 20:20, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

After Liz's comment, Truthsayer62 is now pretending to be a new user, March22nd, (same specific argument about introduction, making a big deal of how to sign, providing an edit summary for talk page comments) or brought in this fellow NKT editor. Come on Misplaced Pages, ban these guys like the Scientologists were banned. Even Truthsayer62 admitted there is consensus. Heicth (talk) 22:10, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Heicth - If you have good reason to believe March22nd is a sock puppet of Truthsayer62 and that these two accounts are being are being abusively operated by the same person - then you can report it to Sockpuppet investigations - but so far the new user March22nd has only made one edit - and that on an article talk page. Chris Fynn (talk) 08:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

This is a false accusation. I am not March22nd. Truthsayer62 (talk) 19:01, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Topic Ban Proposal

The manipulation of Misplaced Pages by the New Kadampa cult is explained on the user page of Kt66 (a great editor on Misplaced Pages). Many other editors have struggled for years with cultists like Truthsayer62 (for example see the New Kadampa Tradition page). I documented my struggles on this ANI page. If Truthsayer62 continues with his strategy of tiring out his opponents, despite Misplaced Pages policies on reliable sources, consensus etc., we will continue to see the deletion of academic references and the use of nonsense material. While most people view Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedic resource, Truthsayer62 views Misplaced Pages as just another NKT blog. I propose that Truthsayer62 be banned from any topic related to Dorje Shugden and the New Kadampa Tradition, which sadly seems to be his life's work according to both his user page and edit history. Heicth (talk) 05:43, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

if you are really in favour of reliably sourced material and neutral edits, why did you block my reliably sourced and neutral edit? There's nothing in the introduction of the Dorje Shugden Controversy article that explains what the controversy is because it's full of one sided information on why Dorje Shugden is a spirit. It doesn't explain the other point of view that is the other side of the controversy. Truthsayer62 (talk) 15:39, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes there are numerous problems, and have been for years, with the articles on Dorje Shugden, the Dorje Shugden controversy, and the New Kadampa Tradition. There are now quite a number of very reputable academic sources on these subjects available, and I think good balanced articles could be written relying only on such sources. However it seems these articles will inevitably be edited by zealous devotees of Dorje Shugden amd/or the NKT to bring these articles as close as they can to their own POV.

Chris Fynn (talk) 08:04, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I haven't analyzed the article edit history, Heicth, but it seems like Truthsayer62 is saying that he can't make edits that "stick", without being reverted, so I question how much influence he has had on the articles in question. I think a topic ban at this stage is not warranted if you are reverting most of his edits. JMHO. Liz 20:14, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Well I agree with Chris Fynn obviously. And the comments of Kt66 elsewhere. Heicth (talk) 20:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I've been watching these articles for years and edit warring, sockpuppetry and so on have been going on all that time on the Dorje Shugden, Dorje Shugden controversy, New Kadampa Tradition and several other related articles — carried on by apparent NKT and WSS members on one side, and their detractors (some probably ex-members of those organisations) on the other ~ with the occasional uninvolved but interested editor thrown in. Each side in these edit wars has their own partisan agenda and seemingly nearly infinite zeal and time to spend. Frankly to me it looks unlikely that NPOV will ever be achieved. Chris Fynn (talk) 21:41, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

That's pretty pessimistic. So are you for this topic ban or not?Heicth (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

These are all false accusations making clear that Heicth is aggressive and non-cooperative. He won't accept any edit I propose as he is simply trying to ban a neutral point of view, now by trying to ban me. He has reverted every edit, including the ones I proposed on the talk page and asked for comments on. This is unreasonable. Truthsayer62 (talk) 15:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Chris Fynn already addressed your claims of "neutral point of view" on the talk page. And you are a WP:SPA, by your own admission on your user page. Neither of the "two" users, Truthsayer62 or March22nd (who are obviously linked) seem to understand Chris Fynn's post on the talk page. March22nd for example keeps pushing a primary source written by Kelsang Gyatso. And Truthsayer62 on this ANI page falsely keeps harping about "neutral". Truthsayer62's view of "neutral" is deleting academic information from Kapstein, Dreyfus and Thurman. What other behavior is necessary before someone is topic banned? Heicth (talk) 16:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. Whether or not Truthsayer62's use of the word "libel" is actually a legal threat, it is sufficiently disruptive to be grounds for a topic ban in and of itself. If the user is not indeffed for legal threats, he should at least be topic-banned. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Legal mumbo jumbo, sockpuppeting and deleting academic quotes (again)

Truthsayer62, a WP:SPA by his own admission on his user page, is now making definitive statements of libel, when we are simply using secondary academic sources from Bultrini and Dr. Thurman. This article is not a WP:BLP. And the Bultrini book with Thurman's foreward clearly documents Chinese involvement. Despite Chris Fynn's recent explanation on the talk page, and previous deleted warninings on his user page, Truthsayer62 once again deleted direct quotes from Dr. Thurman from 2 different pages, Dorje Shugden Controversy and Western Shugden Society. Administrator Thatcher confirmed that Truthsayer62 and 3 other accounts were "editing on the same topics from the same location" and was blocked for sockpuppeting. The manipulation of Misplaced Pages by the New Kadampa cult (WP:COI) is explained on the user page of Kt66 (a great editor on Misplaced Pages). Many other editors have struggled for years with Truthsayer62 (for example see the New Kadampa Tradition page). If Truthsayer62 continues with his strategy of fallacious arguments about libel, neutrality etc., despite Misplaced Pages policies on reliable sources, we will continue to see the deletion of academic references and the use of nonsense material. While most people view Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedic resource, Truthsayer62 views Misplaced Pages as just another NKT blog. Heicth (talk) 14:59, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I warned Truthsayer62 to try to avoid words like "libel" or "slander" because accusations like that could be perceived as legal threats and we usually block people who make or strongly imply a legal threat until they clarify that no litigation is planned, or threat is intended. I don't think the word "libel" was meant to be a threat, so I haven't taken any action, but I'd rather head off that kind of escalation now before it happens. -- Atama頭 15:56, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't mean anything by the use of that word and I didn't realise that it was serious. The truth is that Heicth doesn't like me contributing a view from the other side of the Dorje Shugden controversy and so he is doing everything he can to get me banned when it is he who is being obstructive. Truthsayer62 (talk) 22:08, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Truthsayer62 is not even remotely pretending to adhere to Misplaced Pages policies anymore at the Dorje Shugden Controversy page, such as sourcing and consensus. Not even remotely. He is replacing whole swaths of secondary academic references with non-RS junk websites and his own writings. Heicth (talk) 03:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Blocked, now what next?

I have blocked Truthsayer62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for the disruptive editing behaviour shown here. My personal view is that accounts with names like "truthsayer" are rarely here for Misplaced Pages's benefit, and almost always here for the benefit of their own POV, but that's just me.

I think there are several ways we could proceed now:

1. Others clean up the mess, then Truthsayer62 is unblocked.
2. Truthsayer62 is unblocked but topic banned.
3. Truthsayer62 is unblocked but paroled.
4. Truthsayer62 is unblocked with binding mediation between the parties.
5. Truthsayer62 is unblocked with no further action.
6. Truthsayer62 is considered banned.

I favour parole or topic ban, but I would value input from independent reviewers of the articles in question. The great gobs of special pleading and blatant advocacy he's been inserting are clearly going to take time to clean up, but it's far from clear to me that there is any substantial body of truly neutral editors on this topic. Guy (Help!) 11:49, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Good block of disruptive SPA. After looking at the history of Dorje Shugden controversy plus last month's input on the talkpage and in this ANI thread, I can't see much reason to unblock. In other words, I favour option 6. If somebody does unblock, it should definitely be with a topic ban in place. (But what's the use of topic banning SPAs, really? Just admin busywork.) Bishonen | talk 17:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC).

• LOL, agreed, if you ban a "single purpose account" from its "single purpose" then it's an account without a purpose at all. -- Atama頭 17:42, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Request for permanent deletion of user contact details

An IP editor has posted contact details (not of me) here: . I'm not sure whether this is details of a service or just a person who's been uploaded by a vandal. I request that an administrator permanently delete this revision, so that this person's details are not displayed on this public venue in the future. --LT910001 (talk) 09:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I've deleted those revisions, pending oversighter involvement. You can use this link: Special:EmailUser/Oversight to report this to the oversighters. -- The Anome (talk) 09:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Thecharisp

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Thecharisp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has no significant history on Misplaced Pages other than boosting a fraudulent medical device, Pap-Ion Magnetic Inductor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I believe the user should be shown the door. Guy (Help!) 12:54, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Just for the heck of it, I had a look at this and I agree with you. It was great to see the ArbCom decision about pseudoscience. There are a lot of conspiracy theorists about trying to ply their views in a number of different ways. I'm not saying this user is one of them - it looks more like an advertiser with a probable WP:COI issue. Just my two cents. 124.180.170.151 (talk) 13:01, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Also look at Papimi - seems to be the same device. Ravensfire (talk) 14:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Mr Guy, who are you to decide if anything is fraudulent? Any device or method not approved by the FDA is fraudulent? I have been trying to be as objective as possible by adding new information and doubtless facts(ie clinical studies from pubmed and certificates of conformity to the European standards and regulations) without deleting any previous information. Just adding new ones that are missing. I do not understand why you are removing it. Is there any doubt that any of what I wrote is untrue? Thecharisp (talk) 14:20, 16 April 2014 (UTC)Thecharisp

See WP:SYNTH. The studies were not on your specific device. --NeilN 14:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

You are so wrong and go ahead and look at the official website papimi.com under studies to read the full publication. Maybe the device used is not in the abstract but it is mentioned in the full paper! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thecharisp (talk • contribs) 14:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

My apologies, the device was not mentioned in the text I had access to. I do have to question how Papini is hosting copyrighted papers, though. Nevertheless, I will post to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine and ask them to have a look. --NeilN 14:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm with Guy on this one. There is no real science and no quality sources that would give any credence to the device that he's pushing. The best it has to offer is a single randomised controlled trial on 10 individuals. Any medical claim on Misplaced Pages has to meet WP:MEDRS, which guides us to rely only on the best quality, recent secondary sources. Anything that makes medical claims based on a single small primary study has no place in an encyclopedia. --RexxS (talk) 15:46, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Alright you do not consider a small scale study to be of any importance. There are more though as well for other cases. In this article as it is now, it is only stated that the device is not approved by the FDA and that is illegal to be imported and used in the US. Good I agree. Don't you find it fair then and objective to also mention in which other countries it is approved and legal to be used? If someone makes an article should fully cover the matter and present the total-whole truth and not parts of it.Thecharisp (talk) 15:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Start here: General Notability Guidelines ES&L 16:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

What is your connection to the company that produces this device? It seems the only edits you've made over the last 3 and a half years have been to promote this device. Canterbury Tail talk 16:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Good question! I am the owner and general manager. And as I have mentioned in some of the changes I have made, my intention was not to promote it but to protect it from presenting only part of the truth. And that is what I have been doing by adding information and not deleting any previous ones added by others. Additionally I never made any medical claims, I just posted links to clinical studies that have been made to inform people about everything. Now I need an answer from an authorized person or administrator on whether the article is going to be filled with all facts and information or it will have to be removed completely. I would not want to proceed in legal actions but I am afraid I will have to in order to protect myself and business.Thecharisp (talk) 16:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Note that Tide rolls has blocked Thecharisp per WP:LEGAL -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 16:27, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

This place is a joke. Lesion 16:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Not really, we have very clear polciies on legal threats, and on using Misplaced Pages to promote your business interests. I had a fair idea that Thecharisp was connected to the manufacturer, due to the cynicism born of long experience here. "Energy medicine" devices are all fraudulent (see this for example). No valid device needs to portray a CE mark as a legal endorsement of their medical claims in the EU. I would have blocked him for promotional editing, but I have a history on the article. Guy (Help!) 16:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

While I agree it is unbalanced to focus entirely on the device's legal status in the US and Canada, it may be a wasted effort to fill out info about legal status in other countries. Should establish if the device is notable for the encyclopedia first. AfD? Lesion 16:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

IMO the sources establish its notability as a quack device, but a merge to an article on quack "energy medicine" machines is quite possible and requires no admin intervention. Guy (Help!) 16:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

User Bbbigben70

I stumbled across User talk:Bbbigben70 today, which contains a huge list of email addresses and seemingly promotional content. The editor has an edit history consisting of only three edits to this talk page. Not sure what to make of it, but it may be worthy of admin attention. Lambtron (talk) 15:33, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The page had the copyvio text of two articles taken from androidauthority.com and the list of email addresses. The email addresses fail CSD:U5 and the copyvios CSD:G12. I've deleted the page. The user has no other contributions, deleted or not, and hasn't been active in over a year - so I don't think there's anything left to be done. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 15:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Admin intervention needed

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Admin intervention concerning two articles and needed. A user/users have rightly been trying to remove the mention of King Charles IX (1550-1611) from the aforementioned articles. Edits are constantly reverted. Charles IX wasn't a king of Kvenland or linked to the land by any historian . The land no longer existed when the king was born so mentioning him is absurd to say the least. Instead of dealing with it, solving the matter by blocking multiple users is childish. Even discussion isn't allowed at the moment apparently because a moderator is afraid of losing her face.Quaenland (talk) 16:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• And I've blocked this editor whose only edit is above as a sock of User:Finnedi. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Personal attack

This user started personal attacks against me since yesterday. For example see this edit by him. A trollish activity on several pages (articles and talk pages). --Zyma (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Looking around, particularly at the diffs when Yagmurlukorfez was at AN3, the attacks, warring, battleground, etc. appear to be all he does. Tiptoety gave him a final warning for battleground behavior, and it looks like this is more of the same. He hasn't edited much, but it is starting to look like he is more interested in his own POV only, and WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I can't deal with him anymore. He doesn't attend to my comments and edit summaries. Even after started to talk on article talk page to solve issues (Andronovo culture), he just writes meaningless comments about me (I guess he uses Google Translator, poor skill of English language). Maybe my edits are incorrect (I reviewed his edits and they are unreliable), but why he doesn't act like a normal editor/contributor? Why he writes such comments and disruptive edit summaries? I started a WP:RSN topic and requested other editors' help, but I think it won't be helpful, because this user just does what he wants/likes. --Zyma (talk) 18:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

He's not here to contribute. See this ridiculous edit by him (Improper usage of tag/template). --Zyma (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree, this user should be blocked, perhaps indefinitely. Epicgenius (talk) 22:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't you stopped yet? Why are you always reporting me? Cause of my edits turn you mad? First of all, you attacked me and blamed an "older vandalist user." You're a clearly sided and I will not permission that. Yagmurlukorfez (talk) 20:46, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• By the way the "google translate" issue it's not an argument and even not funny :) You're such a desperate seriously. Ps: Stop fallowing my edits obsessively. Yagmurlukorfez (talk) 21:00, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I came here to mention the attack on Zyma that Zyma links above - he needs to drop the personal attacks but my main concern is competence in English and pov editing. Dougweller (talk) 20:56, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Poor English + POV edits + disruptive edit summaries + using Misplaced Pages like a forum. Am I wrong about this user? If I did wrong edits, please block me. I accept my faults and mistakes. As you see, he's here to stop me and make me mad (his above comment)! --Zyma (talk) 21:07, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'am an able to intermediate level of english. If this is a create big "problem" sorry for that but I'm sure Zyma, you're clearly understand me. So please... Don't be an ad hominem. Yagmurlukorfez (talk) 21:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Your edits (both articles and talk pages) are problematic and you don't attend to the others. Even your comments on this report are just personal attacks against me! You use Misplaced Pages like a forum. Obvious battleground behavior and WP:NOTHERE. --Zyma (talk) 21:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: I've blocked Yagmurlukorfez 24 hours for continuing to edit-war at Celts after being given a final warning by Tiptoety that the next act of edit-warring would result in a block. This block does not take into account any of the other problematic editing mentioned here, including the personal attacks, POV edits, and questions of competency (related to use of the English language). I'm hoping that this reinforces the admonition that conflicts like this should be settled in discussion (and Yagmurlukorfez did indeed post to Talk:Celts, but still reverted shortly after doing so). -- Atama頭 21:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Problematic editing

Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk · contribs) joined Misplaced Pages a couple of weeks ago. Yesterday, he made a problematic edit by re-adding "Great Calamity" as a translation of the Armenian name of the Armenian Genocide This issue has been discussed extensively in the talk page and there was a consensus that "Great Calamity" should not stay in the lead.

In the past few days, he has been WP:HOUNDing me and the articles I edit. He suddenly became interested in Etchmiadzin Cathedral (which is a Good Article) and has been reviewed by a couple of users (for DYK and GAN). He adds a ridiculous tag to article, claiming a statement directly supported by a highly reliable source (Oxford History of Christian Worship) is "dubious".

He also makes major content alterations on POV grounds:

• removes twice a sourced! example of a church that has been influenced by Etchmidzin claiming it is "completely different"
• adds "dubious" tag to a claim sourced by an encyclopedic article and adds a different church without providing any sources
• adds the false transcription (ɛtʃmi.ədˈziːn) of "ech-mee-uh-dzeen", which is supported by a reliable source

--Երևանցի 18:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Mr Yerevantsi seems to be erroniously assuming that he owns the articles he has edited, and that any content or edits he has made are perfect and untouchable. If he has genuine issues about any particular edits I have made (rather than just ownership issues) he should raise those issues on the talk pages of the articles. But, as a general comment in response to his above comments, he has been using very general works like encyclopedias or travel literature to write an article about an extremely specialist subject (an early medieval Armenian church), I have been citing from books that are actually monographs about Armenian architecture written by academics specialising in that field. A specialist source always trumps a third-party non-specialist source. If he has an issue about the quality of sources, there are other notice boards to use, though again the talk page of the article is the proper initial starting point. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 18:49, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• @Yerevantsi: DYK is not the epitome of quality. Likewise, GAN does not mean an article is finished. FAN doesn't even mean an article is concrete and unchangeable. If Tiptoe has credible sources to enhance the article, by all means you two should be cooperating.--v/r - TP 19:06, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Where did I claim that? All I'm saying is this user is hard to work with as he doesn't understand the basic rules of Misplaced Pages. He dismisses reliable sources and prefers to push his POV. The Oxford source clearly states that Etchmiadzin was the first church in Armenia, while Tiptoe asks me "Are you actually saying that for the 200 or so years before the founding of this church there were no churches in Armenia?" This is ridiculous and irrational. --Երևանցի 19:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It is not "my pov" - they are the opinions of sources, from sources that are actually about the building, not just general works like an encyclopedia. And why else did you mention its DYN and Good Article status if not to imply that having that honour meant the article was now perfect and unalterable. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It is your personal opinion. The article is from an encyclopedia on Christianity and the statement is directly taken from an article about the city of Ani. --Երևանցի 19:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Then find a proper source, a specialist work on Armenian architecture that states something as specific as "Etchmiadzin was the first church built in Armenia". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:44, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I've already given a WP:RS that says it. --Երևանցի 19:45, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I can't comment on any of the rest, but /ɛtʃmi.ədˈziːn/ seems to me to be the correct representation of ech-mee-uh-dzeen in IPA. — lfdder 19:30, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

ədˈziːn = uh-dzeen ? --Երևանցի 19:31, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Syllables in English don't begin with /dz/, so /d/ would belong to the previous one. — lfdder 19:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

My assumption was the same as lfdder: that ɛtʃmi.ədˈziːn is just the IPA representation of ECH-mee-UH-dzeen, so that is why I put it back and why I don't know why Yerevantsi removed it. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Chaining "uh" (guy) to ə (police) is, at best, source falsification. --Երևանցի 19:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

'uh' usually stands for the schwa. Also, guy is a diphthong, /aj/, not the 'cup' vowel (which I assume is what you had in mind). — lfdder 19:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I had in mind. "usually stands for the schwa" source please? --Երևանցի 20:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not gonna go digging a source that it usually is the case 'cause, frankly, it doesn't matter. What does matter is that it's not 'at best, source falsification' -- 'uh' is used to represent the schwa in many keys. Here Groiler use 'uh' for what is definitely the schwa. — lfdder 20:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

User talk page harassment and wikistalking by User:Epicgenius

Epicgenius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

After notifying Epicgenius that he should not post to my talk page, he has continued to repeatedly post harassing messages there: , , , , , , , , , , , .

This has included refactoring my comments () and labeling my edits as vandalism (, ). He has also begun wikistalking my article edits:: , , , , .

WP:REMOVED clearly states that I have a right to remove comments from my talk page, so this is harassment. This puerile behavior has got to stop. 71.139.142.249 (talk) 20:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It would be useful if you would help us sort the wheat from the chaff here. Running reflinks and the like, after you edited an article, is not quite "wikistalking".

Epicgenius, you're headed down a very unwise path here. In particular, continuing like this (diff repeated from IP's long list above) on someone else's talk page, will end up getting you blocked. I suggest you knock it off. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I vouch for this IP user. Even though it's just an IP, IPs are users as well, and he has appeared to have edited constructively on Misplaced Pages so far, and does not need to be indulged in such WP:HARASSMENT by a senior editor, one with over 60k edits yet somehow for some benign reasons harasses IPs. Knock it off. Tutelary (talk) 20:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. I suspect this IP is an editor hiding behind anonymity and their edits haven't been all that helpful, anyway. Per WP:BOOMERANG this IP needs some time off to reconsider what they've been doing. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

What is your justification or evidence for this? This isn't an easy WP:DUCK case, and you should pause before making such allegations. KonveyorBelt 21:11, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi User:Chris troutman. Would you like to take some time off to understand the difference between a WP:ESSAY, Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines, and a WP:PILLAR? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 21:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing that justifies this: , , , , , , , , , , , .

There is also absolutely nothing that justifies this: . Calling other editors "asswipes" is a big no-no, according to WP:NPA. Epicgenius (talk) 22:36, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• I'd favor a huge trout and a warning that IP editor talk pages should be treated like any other talk pages. I'd also warn that avoiding the IP is highly encouraged. 21:33, 16 April 2014 (UTC) (message left by Hobit)

• This user, who has never made a single edit before today, manages to find ANI. This editor is clearly not new. Oh and by the way, the user isn't exactly clean himself. In this day alone, he has violated WP:NPA both in edit summaries and in talk page posts, called another user's edit "vandalism" when it was obviously not, and editing three pages just minutes after I have edited them. Fishy, huh? Epicgenius (talk) 22:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
• I have also requested that the IP user unlink my username from his talk page, and even tried to do it myself, but to no avail. His wikistalking claims are false, BTW; I have only done minor edits on these pages per the Manual of Style. Epicgenius (talk) 22:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I edited for years as an IP editor and for some folks, depending on their set-up, the IP is different every time they come online. This user could have months or years of experience. Unless this IP hopping is used disruptively (like multiple votes at an AfD discussion), there is no penalty for being an anonymous editor (except how one is often treated by registered editors). Liz 22:34, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not the IP's article edits that are disruptive. It is their liberal use of personal attacks in edit summaries and talk page posts, plus completely false allegations, their failure to drop their stick, their own puerile behavior (wherein they find it more important to revert my edits than to edit articles constructively), and inexplicably disallowing me from their talk page (for no wrongdoing of mine). This user should be warned of personal attacks. Epicgenius (talk) 22:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

My "failure to drop the stick"? I don't think so. My last contribution to a page that you edited was 17:14. You continued on with your stick, edit after edit after edit, for three more hours, until 20:30. to this very minute. My injudicious comment on your editing was only in exasperation at your incessant wikihounding. And my contributions to the pages you edited were constructive. 71.139.142.249 (talk) 23:05, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

So, could this problem be solved by an informal interaction ban? Can you two agree to stay away from each other, stop posting on each other's talk page and not scrutinize contributions and visit articles to edit right after the other editor has done so? Then you are both free to continue editing, without any sanctions or blocks. Liz 23:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Epicgenius (talk) 00:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

@71.139.142.249: Let's agree to stop arguing, pointing fingers, and wikihounding, okay? This doesn't seem worthwhile. Epicgenius (talk) 00:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Epic, jeez. I will be the first to say that an unregistered account isn't the same as a registered account (see WP:IP addresses are not people) but behind each account OR ip address is a human, and I don't see the need to taunt and antagonize, and you do seem to be doing just that. It doesn't excuse any personal attacks they have made, but it does make it a draw. There isn't a need to correct their ban proclamations or use their talk page except for standard templates, then only as needed. If there is a problem with the IP, it will pretty much be guaranteed to be overlooked because you are busy poking them with a stick. I've delinked the name on the IP talk page. WP:UP is about namespace, and IP talk pages are not exactly name space, ie: it isn't reserved for a person, but for an IP. The IP needs to stop poking as well, including this link. Hopefully now the two will just go separate ways, as I'm not at all willing to entertain any interaction ban, and I'm hoping to not have to block anyone. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• All right. I'll agree to stop harassing the other user. Epicgenius (talk) 00:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
• I stopped editing Epicgenius's pages 8 hours ago, and will continue to refrain from doing so. But I don't think the problem of a serial IP harasser can be solved in such a simplistic way. Even after EG was warned on his talk page by two different editors, he continued to obsessively stalk my article edits. Something further needs to be done here. It doesn't help when administrators blatantly proclaim that IPs are second class citizens. IPs are human too. 71.139.142.249 (talk) 00:20, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Two things:

• I am not a "serial IP harasser" as you say; the victim of said harassment was a well-respected editor who has been editing for 9 years and 140,000 edits. I had had a dispute with that user from March 2013 up to that point; the argument had lasted for months, not hours in your case. You need more diffs or your "serial harasser" claim doesn't count. BTW, that editor is registered, so your point is moot. Epicgenius (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
• At least that editor provides a rationale to prohibit me from his talk page, so props to him for that. You didn't provide a reason, so this is absurd. Epicgenius (talk) 00:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• It isn't a simplistic solution. It is a solution whereby everyone understands what is and isn't acceptable, and that they are likely to get blocked if it continues. I just don't like big fat warning templates. Sometimes, two people just need to go to different rooms, and this is one of those cases. I strongly suggest everyone just walk away (including from here), give each other a little space, and not antagonize or even talk to each other. No one "needs" the last word. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:37, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

• Well. If the IP had made this edit the first time around this might have been avoided (since that's unquestionably better), but more importantly, Epicgenius should have explained their edit the first time they reverted, with an edit summary, not with some automated note that says nothing. What's more, the edit-warring on the IP's talk page is unseemly, unproductive, and unwarranted--I'm a bit disappointed that an experienced editor got carried away like that. So while I suppose it's nice to know that you won't further harass this IP editor, it is much more important that you take a step back and assess how you could have avoided this in the first place. The answer has something to do with respect, with taking the extra step of providing a valid and meaningful edit summary, with accepting that not all IP editors are vandals or trolls, etc. I'm quite serious, Epicgenius: this was not OK. Please either prevent this before it happens, or walk away earlier, much earlier. Drmies (talk) 01:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Okay, I will keep that in mind. I won't do it again, as it's causing more problems than I need. (As if the incident with BMK, which Drmies may remember, wasn't quite enough... ) Epicgenius (talk) 01:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
    • To be honest, I had totally forgotten. My advanced old age makes me forget easily, which in turn makes it easy for me to get along with lots of people. Drop me or Dennis or anyone else a line next time, and we'll either support you or scold you. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 02:03, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
      • All right, I'll do that if I have problems like this again. Thanks. Epicgenius (talk) 02:10, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Elblanco123 and Lestock Adams

Hi there. I was creating the page Lestock Adams - a first class cricketer which passes the notability criteria at WP:CRIC and

This account has been confirmed by a CheckUser as a sockpuppet of Ottoniel Blanco (talk · contribs · logs), and has been blocked indefinitely. Please refer to the sockpuppet investigation of the sockpuppeteer, and editing habits or contributions of the sockpuppet for evidence. This policy subsection may be helpful. Account information: block log – contribs – logs – abuse log – CentralAuth

tagged it for CSD as an attack page and dropped the relevant notice on my talk. Obviously this is a nonsensical action but the user has not replied to my talk page message requesting an explanation and has carried on editing using page curator, which suggests they may not respond to my message.

I'm happy to wait for them to reply to me, but in the mean time I would like to continue editing the article and I am obviously not permitted to remove the CSD tag myself. Can someone please review it for me so I can carry on? Regards, S.G. _ping! 20:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

PS - I did accidentally remove the tag myself, but I've reinstated it for someone who did make the article to deal with! Sorry. S.G. _ping! 20:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I was going to decline the speedy earlier when I saw it in the attack page queue, but since you removed the tag, I went on with other tasks. Now I have gone ahead and declined it properly. I am also interested in seeing Elblanco123's response. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 21:03, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if it is just a competency thing, new to using page curator. I see some messages on his talk that suggests users are pointing out that he is using tags inappropriately, like the comment about bare urls by the user before me. No harm done in the end. Thanks DoRD. S.G. _ping! 21:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The user has tagged two state legislator articles I created, in different states, as autobiographical. & . Dru of Id (talk) 21:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I've tried to leave a more attention grabbing message, seems a competency thing. S.G. _ping! 21:21, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

If this continues, we may have to block per WP:CIR. It's one thing if an editor is new and trying to figure out the project, but if they're (A) being disruptive and (B) not communicating, they need to be stopped, regardless of their intentions. -- Atama頭 21:37, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Concur, it's not like the software makes it hard to see new messages. S.G. _ping! 21:41, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I had a look and there are indeed quite a lot of inappropriate tags. I reverted one that claimed there were no secondary sources when in fact there was one (out of two - the other was a primary source). Dru has done a good job with some of the more recent edits. FWIW as an IP I agree that a block may be the way to go here. (Hanging around this page waiting for any action on my issue above). 124.180.170.151 (talk) 22:27, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Long argument unrelated to article on Talk:Soka Gakkai

Two weeks ago SafwanZabalawi (talk · contribs · count), who primarily makes edits to Talk:Soka Gakkai, proposed adding a section that would dub critics of the religious sect as, quote, "Japanese nationalists, WW II crimes deniers, opponents to humanism and global citizenship, Holocaust deniers, traditional priesthood, and so forth". Earlier last month (now archived) he used the talk page as a soapbox to accuse Soka Gakkai's critics of vandalizing a bunch of Anne Frank books in Tokyo. Last year, SafwanZabalawi messed up the article quite a bit, adding lots of unreliable citations to Soka Gakkai websites and writing in an unencyclopedic style, and a team of four of us repaired it -- it is looking pretty good right now, but Safwan has been continually threatening to revert it to what it looked like before. I have been looking on perplexed as Safwan continues to insult other editors from his talk page soapbox, inciting the wrath of one Catflap08 (talk · contribs · count). The two of them are now engaged in a lengthy argument about Soka Gakkai that is basically tangential to the article.

Safwan has been given far too many chances and I would like to consider some administrative action. I am involved, so I am biased here, but IMO he has never edited in a productive way and has shown himself incapable of having a civil discussion. Catflap should also be warned not to fall for stuff like this. Shii (tock) 21:26, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Clarification:

This sudden accusation above (naming Safwan)occurred only after I, Safwan, posted yesterday on SGI Talk Page an input that "Religious sarcasm should be banned in Misplaced Pages", in which both editors who are now complaining (Shii and Catflap) were involved. Shii is aware of an action of religious insult to the Object of Worship in Nichiren Buddhism, an insult to millions of people around the world and which took place in Misplaced Pages's article on SGI last year. An aggressive and fanatic editor inverted the image of SGI Object of respect and devotion, the Gohonzon, upside-down to show deliberate insult. I did not wait one year - as the two collaborating editors here did - to demand on Talkpage Misplaced Pages editors intervention to disable such immature actions of religious insult and hatred. Now this attitude of using Misplaced Pages to voice an aggressive disrespect to the religious beliefs of millions of people is repeated by Catflap, sarcastically with Shii laughing about a Lotus Sutra's expression. This has been clearly explained on the Talkpage yesterday, offering the opportunity for Catflap to apologise, but he chose not to.

Now: what is the subject of Shii and Catflap's above complaint? If there was a complaint about what I wrote one year ago (as it is mentioned above) - then by any reasonable approach - that complaint should have dealt with - not now, but - one year ago. Waiting a whole year to complain, well: this in itself shows that Shii-Catflap have nothing substantial to state, no argument and no logic and just inventing a problem.

I'm not sure whether Shii is an Administrative editor or not, but his description of a book - an RS - (which criticized Japanese right wing media) as being a "FISHY" book, was an unprofessional and obviously biased categorization. This kind of emotive and uneducated description about a RS, introducing to Misplaced Pages a new "Fishy category" of reliable sources - this has something to do with his complaint above:

That Fishy Book according to Shii revealed the truth about the Japanese rightwing media's disrespect to the Holocaust and the denial of mass murder and mass rape (which occurred during the war led by the Japanese military)and which is still active, targeting now the SGI.

SGI advocates the concept of World Citizenship - the very opposite to Japanese nationalism - and hence hatred and aggression against SGI. This is related to Misplaced Pages article here because opponents to SGI vandalized a previously balanced and neutral article in which common activities with Human Rights Institutes were mentioned (Gandhi Smirti Institute, Martin Luther King Jr Moorehouse Chapel, Simon Weisentahl Center, The United Nations Commissioner on Refugees, and others valid and neutral sources were mentioned as part of Facts about SGI involvement.

Shii complains about my input that SGI cooperates with Simon Weisenthal Center (and has held an exhibition about the life of Anne Franks)-while the Japanese fascists in their antiemetic tendencies aggressively destroyed books on Anne Franks, which SGI deeply respect.

I suggest writing or asking Simon Weisenthal Centre on whether its cooperation with SGI can be mentioned in Misplaced Pages article. (In fact all of the other institutions which were removed from the article can be also asked about their approval to mention their name in SGI article).

Shii-Catflap complain to this Board that I "threaten" to share in editing the article (to make it neutral and balanced as was before):

"Safwan has been continually threatening to revert it to what it looked like before. I have been looking on perplexed".

Perplexed? for what? What is the cause of confusion? Is invitation to abide by Misplaced Pages rules of neutrality and scholastic honesty a "Threat"? Such a statement from Shii speaks for itself. What Shii-Catflap perceived as a "threat" to their bias is probably the intention to engage Universities and Human Rights Institutions in contributing (in the future) to the article - as well as referring the issues of their biased editing to Jimmy Wales, and his view of describing a RS as Fishy by Shii, his views on lack of scholastic honesty through fearing mention of Human Rights Institutions and the UN (in SGI contribution to Peace Culture and Education) - and his views on using the Misplaced Pages for religious sarcasm and insults to the beliefs of millions of people.SafwanZabalawi (talk) 01:15, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Protect of Zbečník stream

Please remove protect from this article and please revert nonconstructive edits by JamesBWatson.--Okurka v prdeli (talk) 22:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Have you edited under any other usernames, Okurka v prdeli? You mention in one of your three edits that you have an account that is blocked. Liz 22:38, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes acounts are my.--Okurka v prdeli (talk) 22:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

This is obviously a sockpuppet of Polibte mi prdel who was blocked for having an offensive username (prdel translates to "farted" in Czech from what my machine translation says). The page was also edited by another sockpuppet, Naboural jsem s hownocucem which in Czech references to "hacking". The user page of Okurka v prdeli translates to "If you got to this page, it means that you moron". I'm blocking this editor as an admitted sockpuppet, and I'm pretty sure this is a sockpuppet of Toma646. -- Atama頭 22:58, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I'm pretty sure that Polibte mi prdel is also a sockpuppet of Toma646; it doesn't take a genius, since Toma646's sockpuppet admitted it. -- Atama頭 23:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

And the editor called me a "douchebag" and said something about stuffing me in a meat-grinder on their user talk page (according to a machine translation) so they've lost talk page access too. (Not because I'm offended, I think it's pretty funny, but clearly they're abusing their talk page.) -- Atama頭 23:08, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I have a complaint

It's getting on for six months now since I last appeared before this august assembly, yet I haven't changed. I used to enjoy the temporary adrenal charge of being notified of yet another ANI report, even though I ignored most of them; have you all gone soft? Or perhaps come to your senses? Eric Corbett 03:00, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

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