User talk:Andries: Difference between revisions

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	Greetings! Your talk page is getting a bit ] - please consider archiving your talk page (or ask me and I'll archive it for you). Cheers! ] ] 23:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)		Greetings! Your talk page is getting a bit ] - please consider archiving your talk page (or ask me and I'll archive it for you). Cheers! ] ] 23:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

			==RFA==
			An RFA involving you has been filed: ] <sup>]-]</sup> 17:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 17:20, 25 June 2006

Thank you for welcomming me, Andries, but i have registred several times allready and the Wiki computer keeps forgetting my name...

Robert Prummel Netherlands

Following user:Eloquence's example I do not archive but remove the contents on my discussion page

First removal on 26 Sept. removed everything before June 1st

Opus Dei: introvigne and schonborn

Hi Andries, I shortened the quote from Schonborn and added the following to the cult response part of the article.

As regards former members, Dr. Introvigne, in his presentation to the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe and the House International Relations Committee in Washington DC, states that disgruntled former members who dramatically reverses their loyalties "are but a minority of the larger population of ex-members of any given religious minority, and should not, without further investigation, be considered as representative of ex-members in general." Cardinal Schönborn states: "It is, however, unjustified, to present personal difficulties within a community as if they were a general experience."

Kindly check if you think it is fitting and fine with you. At least, this statement no longer generalizes on the "unreliability" of apostate testimony. It merely states that these testimonies are not representative of ex-members in general. This is an echo of the Schonborn statement from the sociological point of view. Marax 04:11, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

ANDRIES !!

Will you please join in at http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Willmcw#Come_on , Willmc confirms that 64.81.88.140 is Jossi. Thomas h 08:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC) Well now he relativated it a bit, but in his eyes the entry done as an answer to me about UNA was from Jossi Thomas h 10:07, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I reverted the edits by Miljoshi...

Dear Andries, I have replied to your comments at . Best Regards. Miljoshi 08:05, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Reender Kranenborg

I created a stub article for Reender Kranenborg. I could not find much info in English, so maybe you can expand. Just please do not add books that are not in the English language (these are listed in nl:Reender Kranenborg. Thanks. ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 04:24, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Sergei Torop

Hi Andries, I changed your "merge from" tag to simply a "merge" tag. I would say both names Sergei Torop and Vissarion are equally known. So it might be better to use a "merge" tag first. But of course, I might be wrong :) Tell me what you think! 199.111.230.195 20:27, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point

Your now semi-hidden Misplaced Pages cult is just great for different reasons. Unfortunately it prevented me from pulling this card at Talk:List of purported cults, as a re-make wouldn't be that funny. My other two evidence URLs would have been and . --Pjacobi 23:21, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm

I'll wait a bit, maybe things will cool down, if they don't I'll unprotect it, but will be watching it closely to see if things get out of hand again. For now that's the best anyone can do. Happy editing!

Johann Wolfgang 23:13, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Sant Mat

i recommend to read this , it is about the history of Sant Mat and sheds some light on the guru/god issue which is in it's definition not as common in India as purported by Cultists and supporters but reflects the "Guru is really God in person" behaviour as portrayed by ex-followers of Rawat Thomas h 13:28, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Truce

Peace is not something you wish for; It's something you make, Something you do, Something you are, And something you give away.

The holiday season is coming, let's get off each others back until after the New Year, shall we? ≈ jossi fresco ≈ t • @ 16:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy New Year

For last year's words belong to last year's language

And next year's words await another voice.

And to make an end is to make a beginning.

T.S. Eliot, "Little Gidding"

Happy New Year! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:24, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Another POV fork

You know, that the "outsourced" criticism articles on "cults" drive me mad. Whereas I've failed on other subjects, as the sheer amount of stuff strengthened the "splitters", I've trageted a new one: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Local Church controversy.

Care to comment? Do have any reputable sources for criticism?

Pjacobi 15:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Sathya Sai Baba

Wat mij betreft geen probleem. Opruimen was routine (alles ouder dan een maand krijgt sowieso niet heel veel aandacht op RFC). R adiant _>|< 22:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have time for a lengthy analysis on a subject that I know little about. If RFC doesn't give additional opinions, try WP:3O or WP:RFM. R adiant _>|< 23:09, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Your question

cp from User talk:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters Andries needs to slow down with his advocacy against gurus andl leaders new religious movements. He finds a certain joy in grouping gurus and leaders of new religious movements with Hitler to the hope to assert the fallacy of guilt by association. This is at the core of the discussion at Charismatic authority, no more, no less. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:37, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I am not exactly the only one who recognizes the similarity from personal exerience. So does Eileen Barker (in an interview) "I remember when I first saw Reverend Sun Myung Moon. I was watching with some other people while he was talking and gesticulating in Korean, and it really reminded me more of Hitler than of anyone else." But do not worry. I have no intention to write that in the article though because it is just an interview, not an article in a scholarly magazine. Andries 16:48, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes we all know how you feel. But that is not what Misplaced Pages is for. Read WP:NOT. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:51, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Can you please specify where I broke that policy? Andries 17:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

You may have not "broken the policy" but you are surely using Misplaced Pages to advocate your point of view, as stated by you several times including recently on your own user page. The no advocacy policy of Wikipeddia is not designed to be navigated around to "avoid breaking it". WP:NOT is to be embraced as a concept, together with WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:NOR. There is a big difference between these two. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

opposing an uncritical attitude towards cults and new religious movements within policies is not advocacy. Andries 20:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that it is time that the de facto project Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Cults_and_new_religious_movements is formally declared. At least we will then have a centralized place of discussion, and debate, especially about sources and Misplaced Pages:POV forks, list of cults etc. Regardless of the impression of what you have of me, it was and is never my intention to depict cults, gurus, and new religious movements more sinister that they really are or more sinister than supported by the sources. Andries 20:59, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I have stated the obvious as depicted by your actions. It is all very transparent. As for the Misplaced Pages project you mention, I am not interested. Thanks anyway. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:31, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Opus Dei: Validity of testimonies of former members

Dear Andries, I am trying to synthesize the different versions proposed so far regarding this topic:

Your first one: Adherents of Opus Dei point in response to the accusations to the fact that several sociologists and religious scholars, like Wilson, treat the testimonies of critical former members with skepticism. In

Irmgard's (which you ok'd): Sociologist Bryan R Wilson discredits reports of former members as , a view which is disputed among scholars and sociologists. See Apostates#Opinions about the reliability of apostates' testimony and their motivations.

Thomas S. Major's development of Irmgard's: Reader Emeritus of Sociology of the University of Oxford, Bryan R. Wilson, a scientist admired by scholars world-wide but also opposed by some others, studied the phenomenon of a type of adult former members who "shows himself to have been first a victim" then "a redeemed crusader" and "whose personal history predisposes him to bias." Wilson states: "the suspicion must arise that he acts from a personal motivation to vindicate himself and to regain his self-esteem." These, he says, "learn to rehearse an atrocity story,"

Your latest version: Some prominent sociologists advocate in general skepticism towards the testimonies of critical former members of controversial religious movements while other sociologists disagree. See Controversy about the validity of the testimonies of critical members of religious movements

My latest proposal: While the topic of the validity of testimonies of former members of religious organizations is controversial, some prominent sociologists like Reader Emeritus of Sociology of the University of Oxford, Bryan R. Wilson, puts in doubt the testimonies of a type of critical former members. Wilson goes so far as to say, for example, that some of these adult members who are "prone to bias" sometimes "learn to rehearse an atrocity story." See Controversy about the validity of the testimonies of critical members of religious movements

My proposal tries to put together proposals. I think that Thomas' attempt to provide a quote is ok given the NPOV policy:

Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (as defined in the previous paragraph) are not Points Of View (POV, here used in the meaning of "opposite of NPOV") in and of themselves. A good way to help building a neutral point of view is to find a reputable source for the piece of information you want to add to wikipedia, and then cite that source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without excluding that the debate has other sides. The trick is to find the best and most reputable sources you can.

Although I do agree that the quote has to put in proper context and nuance as you said in : that Wilson although prominent and a very "reputable source" is quite extreme. Thus, my rendering: "he goes so far as to say."

I placed "put in doubt" rather than "generally advocates skepticism" because he specifies the type. He does not advocate skepticism for all apostates. There is more nuance in his statements, I think.

What do you think? Lafem 05:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Non-english sources

There is already an official Misplaced Pages policy about sources: WP:Verifiability: I quote:

Because this is the English Misplaced Pages, English-language sources should be given whenever possible, and should always be used in preference to foreign-language sources. For example, do not use a foreign-language newspaper as a source unless there is no equivalent article in an English-language newspaper.

In cases where the original source material is not in English, and there is no English-language equivalent, there is a tension between accessibility and verifiability. Readers may not be able to read source materials in other languages, and therefore require translations into English so that they can read them. Editors need this too, so they can check that the source has been used correctly.

However, translations are subject to error, whether performed by a Misplaced Pages editor or a professional, published translator. Readers have to be able to verify for themselves what the original material actually said, that it was published by a credible source, and that it was translated correctly.

Therefore, when the original material is in a language other than English:

Where sources are directly quoted, published translations are preferred over editors performing their own translations directly.
Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, they should include next to it the original-language quotation, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation.
The original source in the original language should be cited, so that readers and editors can evaluate the reliability and credibility of the original source, can determine whether the original source was peer reviewed, and can verify that the article content is supported by the source material.

So, non-English sources are OK, within these parameters. If you want to change that official policy, the best way to do this is at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:37, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with this policy that was only recently changed in this respect by Slim Virgin. Andries 09:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Policies are approved by the community at large, not by a sinmgle editor. If you disagree with any policy, you will have to go back to the community to raise your ooposition, not to start an advocacy group to push a POV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:30, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Hitler and charisma

The Charismatic authority page you linked to Adolf Hitler has text missing - you can see the gap where footnote 2 is marked. Perhaps you could fill the gap.--shtove 11:27, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Rodney Stark

I had never heard of him until I read the TNR article; and it does not encourage me to want to know more. But it belongs in any article. A URL for it can probably be found through http:\\www.thenewrepublic.com

Good luck, Septentrionalis 03:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Arnoud Engelfriet

Thank you for your note on my talk page. --Edcolins 14:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Witness accounts

If you have a problem with a witness account such as Mr. Singh's as it pertains to WP:V, please let me know so that we can then proceed to remove all personal accounts from the Criticism of Prem Rawat article. Ah, and when we are at it, let's proceed and delete all the witness accounts against your guru posted on anti-SSB websites such as the one you are a webmaster of, shall we? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:03, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Mediation?

Hi, I am responding to a Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation#Sathya_Sai_Baba initiated by Jossi (talk • contribs). The parties to the mediation would be SSS108 (talk • contribs), Thaumaturgic (talk • contribs) and Andries (talk • contribs). This would be an entirely voluntary mediation. I have no official status with Misplaced Pages, and I am not an admin. My only aim would be to assist in dispute resolution. Please let me know if you are willing to have me play the role of mediator by commenting at User:BostonMA/Mediation. --BostonMA 01:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Thank you for accepting me as a mediator on a trial basis. The other two editors have already raised a number of issues about which they have concerns. It would be helpful if you started a section on the mediation page which expresses some of the things you hope might come out of mediation. If you don't feel inclined to express your hopes for mediation, that is OK too, but in that case please let me know that it is OK to proceed without a statement from you. Thanks again. --BostonMA 15:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I added the following comment to mediation page. I am repeating it here, because I did some major reorganization, and I don't want this to get overlooked in the shuffle.

I am more interested in the answers to the two questions than I am in arguments that might be raised to support the particular numbers chosen. I am at fault for conveying the impression that I am more interested in the arguments which support those numbers than is the case at the moment. I think the arguments are important, but I really want to see the numbers soon, even if they are high and low limits that you have chosen merely because your gut says they are OK.

--BostonMA 23:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Because the main mediation page has grown so large, I have added a new page User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Nagel as source. Please use the page only for discussion of using Nagel as a source. I have given some of my opinions on the page already. Please give yours. It is my hope that editting work on the main article can proceed at the same time that specific issues, such as using Alexandra Nagel as a source are discussed. --BostonMA 03:34, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Jossi is not officially a party to the mediation. However, Jossi appears to have strong concerns about the content of the SSB articles. It would seem formalistic to me not to include Jossi. Do you object? --BostonMA 03:48, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Thank you for moving the Nagel page. I hadn't noticed that I created it in the wrong space. --BostonMA 15:39, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have added a new page User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Use of Websites. Please continue to discuss matters on User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Nagel as source as well. --BostonMA 03:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have added two new pages. The first page is a Mediator Reminder Page. Occassionally, I will lose track of things to which I ought to respond, or upon which I ought to take action. This page is the place to give me reminders of such things. Please do not use this page for discussion. As I respond to the item of which you are reminding me, I will delete the reminder. So don't place anything on the page that you want kept. The second page is a Reminder Page for the Editors. Please put this page on your watchlist, and review it from time to time. Just as I do, editors may also lose track of items. Questions may be asked which are forgotten or the answers to these questions may not be clear to readers such as myself. I will place such questions on this page. Please do not edit this page at all. Just look at it. If I have included an item that you believe has already been addressed, just let me know on the Mediator Reminder Page. I've added larger links below for your convenience --BostonMA 03:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Andries. It has now been 2 weeks. Please express whether you a willing to have me continue as mediator, by responding on the main mediation page. Thanks. --BostonMA 02:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Andries. I have just left a note on SSB108's talk page which you should read. --BostonMA 19:40, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I have added a new mediation page User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Implementation of Policies. Please express your agreement or disagreement to the opinion expressed on this page. --BostonMA 20:45, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've added a new question to User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Implementation of Policies. --BostonMA 22:36, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've added a new page User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Premanand as a Source. Please respond to the question(s) raised there. --BostonMA 17:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I've also added a new question at User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Implementation of Policies --BostonMA 23:06, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've added more to User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Premanand as a Source. --BostonMA 03:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I've added a number of new questions, which can be accessed by clicking on the appropriate links at User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/Reminders for Editors. If it is alright with you, I will just update the timestamp for this message whenver I add something new. --BostonMA 18:47, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

* Editors' Reminder Page

* Mediator Reminder Page

Dutch language Talk

I believe a message directed at you is waiting for an answer.

19:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Welcome

Thanks for the welcome and your work on Jim Jones! Ecto 23:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Prem Rawat

Hi Andries, I could have sworn I replied to your message — I remember exactly what I said — but either I forgot to click "send" or the server ate it. (I wonder which is more likely.) Thanks, anyway! I was very pleased to see your informative edit to the Lead of Prem Rawat, about the groups that the criticism came from. "Oh, look, great Lead now", I thought. "Everybody's gonna be happy." Ha ha, yeah. I guess I forgot to count those archives. Bishonen | talk 01:56, 15 February 2006 (UTC).

The Blondin Award

For your tireless efforts to introduce more balance in Prem Rawat, I hereby present you with the prestigious Blondin Tightrope Award, represented by this image of the amazing Charles Blondin carrying Jimbo Wales safely across the Niagara Falls. Bishonen | talk 21:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

Please check your WP:NA entry

Greetings, editor! Your name appears on Misplaced Pages:List of non-admins with high edit counts. If you have not done so lately, please take a look at that page and check your listing to be sure that following the particulars are correct:

If you are an admin, please remove your name from the list.
If you are currently interested in being considered for adminship, please be sure your name is in bold; if you are opposed to being considered for adminship, please cross out your name (but do not delete it, as it will automatically be re-added in the next page update).
Please check to see if you are in the right category for classification by number of edits.

Thank you, and have a wiki wiki day! BD2412 T 05:19, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'll get back to you

Hi Andries, I'm short of time these past days and so have not been able to reply to your message. Sorry but I'll get back to you. Hopefully next week. Best wishes. Lafem 03:20, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, Andries. Here is an initial response to your note:

a) Misplaced Pages says we should report in proportion to the credibility of the expert. I think it is almost beyond dispute that Wilson is one of the most credible experts on this topic (0pus Dei is under the category of religious organization). Duheim and Zablocki could be mentioned only if their credibility is proportionate to Wilson, and if there are no limitations of space and due proportionality. But their position is not altogether absent in the article. John L. Allen, Jr., another highly credible writer, says that the differences in interpreting the same religious data "depends on one's basic approach to a religious vocation, family life, etc.". And in terms of space proportions, Allen's space is greater than Wilson's. b) General scientific statements of an expert in a field which has greater extension, and by the very philosophical definition of extension, general and science, could be applied to specifics. This is done in these specific subjects, as to Keynesian economics , John Dewey . I am sure these experts did not specifically refer to these subjects but their theories are applied to them, because they meant their general scientific statements to be inductions from specifics and later applied to other specifics. c) I read Wilson's paper (but it was not from Scientology but from a human rights or freedom group). Wilson does not brand all defectors as producers of atrocity stories. It is only specific individuals who are. And I am sure you are not one of them. But I think it is important that the people learn from a world expert about these type of individuals, who are few but destructive. It will also protect you and me, if somebody who leaves Misplaced Pages, for example, one day portray us in a very bad light.

Let's see if this has helped. Lafem 03:27, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

VWN en WCN

Beste allemaal Al enige tijd is er een Nederlandstalig chapter in oprichting, te vinden op http://nl.wikimedia.org . Dit wordt de Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland (VWN). Je kunt je interesse om lid te worden van deze vereniging hier aangeven.

Deze vereniging gaat eind augustus/begin september een Wikimedia Conferentie in Nederland (WCN) houden, volgend op Wikimania in Boston, gedeeltelijk erop inspelend middels een aantal discussiegroepen. Om iets dergelijks te organiseren is imput erg gewenst. Dus als je wilt meehelpen, of als je interesse hebt om bij een dergelijk evenement aanwezig te zijn, geef dat dan aan op nl.wikimedia. Ik hoop daar snel je imput tegemoet te zien! Met vriendelijke groet, Effeietsanders 25 feb 2006 12:27 (CET)

Suspicious anos

a suspicious anonymous edit. Should we roll back this invisible linkspam? ;-) -- Zanaq 13:39, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Could you verify this, please?

I received this via email by someone I do not know. Could you please verify that this is accurate? You have access to that book, right? Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:43, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that Kranenborg wrote in 2002 that after the family rift, Maharaji continued independently, abandoned the divine trappings and claims about himself and began to present himself instead an humanitarian leader? Source: Kranenborg, Reender "Neohindoeïstische bewegingen in Nederland : een encyclopedisch overzicht", Kampen Kok cop. (2002), p.178 ISBN 9043504939. "Zij onterfde hem spiritueel, in feite werd hij de beweging uitgezet. Maharaji ging zelfstandig verder, zij het met minder pretenties dan voorheen. Zo sprak hij sindsdien niet meer in goddelijke termen over zichzelf, maar noemde zich 'humanitarian leader'" (translation: "She disinherited him spiritually. In fact, he was expelled from the movement. Maharaji continued on independently, with less claims than in the past, not speaking with divine terms about himself, but calling himself instead an 'humanitarian leader'"

So, did you manage to confirm this? The email stated that it was you that posted this reference in the former followers chatroom. If that is the case, then I am surprised that you chose not provide that information in the article itself. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, because I do not believe that you would forward only these cites from Kranenborg that support your POV, and hiding others that don't, and then accuse fellow editors of double-standards. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:45, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Unacceptable

I will not tolerate personal attacks in which you accuse me of hypocrisy. If you don't like my edits, discuss them civilly. This is my last warning. Any further personal attacks from you will be reported to Misplaced Pages:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Join me in opposing incivility and personal attacks

Please join me in keeping discussion within the civility that is expected and strongly opposing disparraging comments about editors either in our outside of Misplaced Pages. .

For example, these comments by Jim "Either this woman's an a**hole who's just trying to distort reality for some stupid reason or she's ignorant yet pompous to boot." and "As far as I'm concerned, Daniella's fake until proven otherwise.� She's certainly ignorant and offensive." are undoubtedly personal attacks and not acceptable. Period. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:26, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are right that Jim did make this comment. I had not used the search function well. I will talk to Jim about this. Andries 18:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:31, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Andries your comment on the anti Prem Rawat forum (http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/3540.html) that "Misplaced Pages editors assert that 'Guru Maharaj ji is God' can refer to his father", is untrue and should be retracted.Momento 02:28, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Please respond to mediation questions

Hi Andries, please take some time to respond to the questions that were raised in mediation. The currently open questions may be easily found by clicking on the appropriate links here. --BostonMA 21:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

When are you going to provide arguments in the mediation instead of reverting a statement you can't fight normally, by debating? Are you somehow incompetent to this behaviour?

Read the above.

Sander 14:10, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

SSB Mediation

Andries, not to pressure you or anything, but I am interested in pursuing the mediation. You began to answer the questions on Premanand as a Source and then abruptly stopped. You have not given a reason for not answering the questions. If you are busy or delayed, I think it is only fair you let us know. If you don't want to answer the questions, just say so. The unanswered questions have been there since February 27th and we cannot move forward unless you participate. Thanks SSS108 21:37, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Andries. My working assumption is that you are still weighing your responses. However, it occurred to me that you might have missed my comment here. My own watch list is often busy, and I have more than once realized that something went by without me noticing at the time. If you have anything you would like to talk over with me, please feel free to let me know. --BostonMA 02:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

personal attacks

Please note that linking on your user page to "Andries Bias" webpage may be seen as a personal attack against me.

Anything can be seen as anything by dishonest people. Are you accusing me of mounting a personal attack against you? If not, you are wasting my time. — goethean ॐ 18:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

You have failed to link to text backing up your accusation. — goethean ॐ 18:43, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Andries, I noticed you said my page contained "defamatory" content. Are you aware of the definition of "defamation"? If statements are negative, but true, that is not defamation. If statements are untrue, then it is defamation. Point out anything on my page about you that is untrue, i.e., "defamatory". You are falsely accusing me of defamation without backing up your claims by citing examples. SSS108 03:14, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

"Defamatory" comment addressed: Talk Page: Personal Messages SSS108 18:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

==Arbitration request==

I would like to inform about the Arbitration request concerning the long discussion on Talk:Dutch language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Statement_by_Sander_on_Talk:Dutch_language

Sander 10:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

Hi Andries. I'm sure you read the contributions of SSS108 and perhaps have my talk page on your watch list. So, it is not really necessary for me to tell you that SSS108 is considering filing a request for arbitration against you. I have noticed that your recent edits on SSB seem to be mostly in the right direction. I'm reluctant to put pressure on people when they seem to be trying to do the right thing. However, to be honest, there are several things that I would have brought to your attention eventually, and the fact that SSS108 is considering arbitration makes it seem appropriate to bring them up now, despite your recent good edits.

I have been somewhat disappointed that you have been so slow in responding to comments that I have made directly addressed to you. In the event that mediation continues, I hope that you will try to keep in touch more frequently.

There is a larger issue, however, that I would like to share my feelings about. I would like you to reconsider the answers that you gave to the questions about Premanand's article about inappropriate influence upon the judiciary. Neutral point of view is an a basic policy of Misplaced Pages. Good editors must be able to distinguish partisanship from a neutral point of view. The ability to recognize what constitutes credible evidence that a crime has been committed from cases where no such credible evidence has been presented, and the ability to recognize when authors are hiding insinuations by phrasing them as questions, these abilities are basic and essential for distinguishing a partisan source from a neutral source. There may be other editors who share your opinions of the Premanand article. However, I think a great many editors would take your answers as a sign of an inability to properly judge sources. I do not want you to be dishonest. If you are truly convinced of what you wrote, please let it remain. However, if on reconsideration you see your answers as unconvincing, I strongly urge you to strike out the comments you made and to change your statements to agree. Sincerely, --BostonMA 02:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Harold Klemp

As you've done some work on Eckankar articles, you might be interested in the suggestion at Talk:Harold Klemp. CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 03:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Should I then add this?

www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/sathya-sai-baba-wikipedia-bias.html Misplaced Pages Bias: Anti-Sai Bias On Misplaced Pages] Essay by a proponent accusing Misplaced Pages editors of bias.

≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it is better to link to Moreno's main website as is already the case. Andries 23:47, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

This page is critical of editors of Misplaced Pages by a non notable individual. It does not havfe a place in this encyclopedia and that same applies to your addition of Finch's essay. I am deleting it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 23:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Andries, please take a look at User:BostonMA/Mediation/Sathya Sai Baba/www.saisathyasai.com and comment. --BostonMA 23:52, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Edit summary

~~Hello. Please remember to always provide an edit summary. Thanks and happy editing. Steve block talk 20:47, 24 March 2006 (UTC)~~

My apologies. Steve block talk 21:37, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Prem Rawat article

Andries, your bias is indisputable. Your postings on the anti Prem Rawat forum criticising Misplaced Pages editors are evidence enough. I will always correct your POV editing.Momento 04:17, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Old version of SSB article

Andries, could you explain why you reverted to a version of the SSB article that did not include the various changes that had been made during mediation (including changes made by you)? Thanks. --BostonMA 20:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC) My mistake. I apologize. --BostonMA 00:01, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Jan van der Lans

I can't find record of the draft you speak of, but rewrite the article or head to deletion review. Good luck. Harr o5 08:30, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Reminder of open question

Hi Andries, please remember that there is still an open question from 2 April 2006. --BostonMA 01:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Question Pending

Please answer this question SSS108 03:34, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Apologies

Hi, I greatly apologize for my prolonged absense. It will take a bit for me to understand discussions which have taken place. Please let me know if there are issues that you feel are urgent to which I should attend first. Sincerely, BostonMA 22:41, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks For Writing the cults in fiction section. I like when people take my ideas seriously. Keep up the good work User:Zerath13

Sathya Sai Baba

I've blocked both you and SSS108 for your persistant edit warring on Sathya Sai Baba. You clearly made 4 reverts in less than 24 hours. — Apr. 22, '06 <freakofnur_xture|talk>

Request translation with regards to Sathya Sai Baba

THE FOLLOWING TEXT NEEDS TO BE TRANSLATED FROM DUTCH TO ENGLISH FOR THE SATHYA SAI BABA ARTICLE:

Please make corrections here User_talk:Andries/Translations_SSB_1

Welkom bij de club der rouwenden', e-mailt ex-Sai Baba-devotee (vereerder) Leo, aan nieuwe lotgenoten. Hij wil zijn naam niet in de krant. ,,Voor mij is het nu een week dat ik ex ben, en dat na elf jaar. Naar aanleiding van alle geruchten die hij hoorde, nam hij ondanks Sai Baba's verbod een kijkje op internet. ,,Schokkend was het. Ik kon het niet meer afdoen als een complot van negatieve krachten en teleurgestelde devotees. Hij is nu in de rouw. ,,Baba was niet alleen mijn vader en moeder maar ook de grondlegger van mijn wereldbeeld. Ik heb al zijn foto's verscheurd.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): Welcome to the club of the mourners, e-mails ex-Sai Baba devotee (worshipper) Leo, to his new fellow-sufferers. He does not want his name in the newspaper. "It has now been a week for me that I am an ex, and that after eleven years. Because of all the rumors that he heard and in spite of Sai Baba's prohibition, he took a look at the internet. "It was shocking. I could not dismiss it anymore as a conspiracy of negative forces and disappointed devotees. He is now mourning. "Baba was not only my father and mother but also the founder of my world view. I tore up all his pictures.

From Dutch original in Trouw newspaper, 6 September 2000 under the title "De ondergang van een goeroe, Sai Baba"translation by the Dutch American Ella Evers is here The Downfall of a guru, Sai Baba

Honderden Nederlandse gelovigen hebben net als hij de afgelopen maanden hun Sai Baba-foto's van de muren gescheurd en zijn boeken weggegooid. Het aantal getuigenissen op internet groeit, van gewone aanhangers, maar ook van 'hooggeplaatsten' die Sai Baba goed kennen. Steevast trok de swami hun broek omlaag en betastte hun geslachtsdelen. Sommigen werden gedwongen tot orale seks. Wie Sai Baba onder vier ogen mag ontmoeten is een geluksvogel. Duizenden moeten genoegen nemen met de vluchtige aanblik van de godheid wanneer hij de zegen geeft.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): Hundreds of Dutch believers have, just like him torn their Sai Baba pictures off the wall and threw away his books. The number of testimonies on the internet is growing, from rank and file adherents, but also from 'highly placed persons' who know Sai Baba well. Invariably the swami pulled their trousers down and felt up their genitals. Some were forced to oral sex. Whom can meet Sai Baba in private is a lucky one. Thousands have to be satisfied with a brief sight of the deity when he gives the blessing.

From Dutch original in Trouw newspaper, 6 September 2000 under the title "De ondergang van een goeroe, Sai Baba"translation by the Dutch American Ella Evers is here The Downfall of a guru, Sai Baba

De mythisch-sociologische connectie tussen Sai Baba en de god Shiva is hiermee voor een belangrijk deel uitgelegd. Rest de erotische component van Shiva in relatie te brengen met Sai Baba. Swallow wijst o.m. op Sai Baba's artistieke verschijning in het verleden (Baba danste en zong) en zijn uiterlijk. Baba's voorkomen vertoont eerder vrouwelijke dan mannelijke trekken, en zijn uitstraling is een mengeling van erotiek en ascetisme. Over de wijze waarop Sai Baba het nieuwe tijdperk in gang zal zetten, meent Swallow dat Sathya Sai Baba dit middels eigen rituelen doet, maar dat daarbij "de sexuele beeldspraak verborgen is en aangepast is aan de gevoeligheden van zijn vrij preutse toehoorders."

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE):The mythical-sociological relation between Sai Baba and the deity Shiva has been explained with this to a great extent. What remains is to relate the erotic component of Shiva to Sai Baba. Swallow points among others at Sai Baba artistic figure in the past (Baba danced and sang) and his looks. Baba's appearance shows more female than male traits, and his aura is a mix of eroticism and asceticism. With regards to the way by which Sai Baba will get the new age going, Swallow holds the opinion that he will do this through his own rituals, but that in addition "the sexual metaphors are hidden and adapted to the sensitivities of his rather prudish listeners."

from Dutch original by Alexandra Nagel under the title "De Sai Paradox" from "Religieuze Bewegingen in Nederland", 'Sekten', 1994, nr. 29 published by the Free University of Amsterdam press Not translated into English until now.

Middels deze laatste opmerking wordt aannemelijk waarom Sai Baba's sexuele handelingen zoals Brooke en Ord ze naar voren hebben gebracht, grotendeels onder de oppervlakte zijn gebleven: het merendeel van zijn devotees is niet open genoeg om de symboliek te kunnen begrijpen of te accepteren. Totaal onduidelijk is evenwel of Swallow kennis heeft genomen van Sai Baba's handelingen met jongemannen en zijn tweeslachtigheid. Uit de wijze waarop zij Baba als een incarnatie van Shiva heeft geportretteerd, zou afgeleid kunnen worden dat ze het niet meer dan normaal of passend zou vinden dat die gebeurtenissen plaatsvinden. Want Baba toont in de privé-omgeving zijn kant van 'opperste geliefde' en combineert dit bovendien met Shiva-Shakti, de man-vrouw vorm. Baba is letterlijk de levende lingam in de yoni. Aan de buitenwereld toont Baba zijn andere kant, die van 'asceet', van de goeroe die sexualiteit als een functioneel gebeuren uitlegt om als soort te blijven voortbestaan.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): With this last remark it becomes plausible why Sai Baba's sexual acts, as Brooke and Ord told them, have been largely remained under the surface: the majority of the devotees is not open enough to understand the symbolism or to accept it. It is totally unclear whether Swallow knew about Sai Baba's acts with young men and his hermaphrodism. From the way in which she portrayed Baba as an incarnation of Shiva, one could infer that she would have found it normal and appropriate that those events take place. Because Baba shows in his private surroundings his side of the 'supreme lover' and in addition combines this with Shiva-Shakti, the male-female form. Baba is literally the living lingam in the yoni. To the outside world Baba shows his other side, that of the 'ascetic', of the guru who explains sexuality as a functional thing to persist as a species.

Bij elk nieuw stuk kwam een net iets ander aspect met betrekking tot de goeroe naar voren. Vroon verwees bijv. naar de Indiër Basava Premanand, die al jaren druk doende is Sai Baba te ontmaskeren als avatar. Twee dagen na het verschijnen van de IKON-documentaire vertelde Premanand in het praatprogramma van Karel de Graaf, dat Baba betrokken is bij duistere praktijken als goud- en juwelensmokkel en belastingontduiking.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): With each new piece a slightly different apect with regards to the guru emerged. For example, Vroon referred to the Indian Basava Premanand who has been busy for years to expose Sai Baba as an avatar. Two days after the appearance of the IKON documentary Premanand told in the talk show of Karel de Graaf that Baba is involved in shady affairs, such as gold and jewellery smuggling and tax evasion.

Na dit Gurupurnima festival steeg Sai Baba's aanzien en bekendheid verder. Tempels werden voor hem gebouwd in Bombay, Hyderabad en Madras. Er trokken Engelsen, Australiërs en Amerikanen naar hem toe. De boeken die van hen over Baba verschenen zorgden tezamen met Baba's reis naar Oost-Afrika ervoor dat hij mondiaal gezien naam begon te maken. En nog altijd lijkt het aantal mensen dat naar hem toegaat toe te nemen. De schatting van de huidige omvang volgelingen, veelal 'devotees' genoemd, loopt flink uiteen.23 Ruwweg wordt het geschat op 50 miljoen, uit allerlei lagen van de bevolking en verdeeld over de hele wereld, doch het merendeel afkomstig uit India zelf. Het Nederlandse Sathya Sai Baba Nieuws heeft een oplage van circa 2800 bladen; in alle grote steden in ons land worden Sai Baba-erediensten en studie-bijeenkomsten gehouden en jaarlijks reizen groepen naar Puttaparthi om een poos in zijn ashram te verblijven.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): After this gurupurnima festival Sai Baba's standing and reputation increased further. Temples were built for him in Bombay, Hyderabad, and Madras. English, Australians, and Americans went to him. The books that appeared by them about Baba led, together with Baba's journey to East-Africa to a world wide reputation. And the number of people that goes to him still seems to increase. The estimate of the current size of his followers, who are often called 'devotees', vary quite a lot. 23 Roughly it is estimated at 50 million from all layers of sociey and dispersed over the whole world, though the majority from India itself. The Dutch Sathya Sai Baba Nieuws has a circulation of 2,800 magazines: in all big cities in our country Sai Baba services and study circles are held and yearly groups travel to Puttaparthi to stay some time in his ashram.

Beyerstein (1992:3) schat het aantal op 6 miljoen; Riti & Theodore (1993:31) op 30 miljoen, Sluizer (1993:19) heeft het over 70 miljoen en Van Dijk (1993:30) over "tussen de 50 en 100 miljoen."

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): Beyerstein (1992:3) estimates the number to be 6 million; Riti & Theodore (1993:31) to be 30 million, Sluizer (1993:19) writes about 70 million and Van Dijk (1993:30) about "between 50 and 100 milllion."

Voor een scepticus is het beschreven gedrag van Baba juist een bewijs dat Baba nìet alwetend is.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): The described behavior by Baba is for a skeptic evidence that Baba is not omniscient.

In feite zijn de visies pro-, anti- en neutraal-Baba door de publiciteit meer gemeengoed geworden. De tegenstrijdigheden van en rondom Baba zijn extremer aan het licht gekomen, want in wezen bestonden ze voordien ook al, zij het meer gevoelsmatig. Degenen die niet in wonderen of iets dergelijks geloven, trokken bij voorbaat Baba's kunsten in twijfel, maar hebben nu troeven in handen gekregen in de vorm van daadwerkelijke bewijzen en namen van mensen die Baba's bedrog trachten aan te tonen.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): In fact, the views pro-, anti-, and neutral-Baba have become more common by the publicity. The contradictions of and about Baba have emerged more extreme, because they were already there in essence, though more instinctively. Whoever does not believe in miracles or something similar questioned Baba's tricks in advance, but they are now supported in the form real proofs and names of people who try to prove Baba's fraud.

from Dutch original by Alexandra Nagel under the title "De Sai Parodox" from "Religieuze Bewegingen in Nederland", 'Sekten', 1994, nr. 29 published by the Free University of Amsterdam press Not translated into English until now.

Alexandra (30) heeft haar bedenkingen, maar ze zou het vervelend vinden wanneer haar ervaringen alleen maar negatief zouden worden uitgelegd. Aarzelend komt het er uit: in '89 was zij drie maanden in de ashram van Sai Baba. Zij kwam er ook onder de indruk wat zij daar meemaakte en voelde zich zelfs een devotee worden. Maar uiteindelijk ging zij er geheel in de war vandaan en had zij enige tijd nodig om haar evenwicht te hervinden. Hoewel zij het niet graag vertelt vindt ze ook dat ze niets te verbergen heeft: een vriend met wie zij in de ashram is opgetrokken heeft heel vreemde ervaringen opgedaan met de godmens. Ja, inderdaad, op seksueel gebied. We kunnen het hem beter zelf vragen.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): Alexandra (30) has her objections, but would be unhappy if her experiences would only be explained in a negative way. Hesitant she tells her story: in '89 she was three months in the ashram of Sai Baba. She became impressed by what she experienced there and she even felt that she became a devotee. But finally she went away totally confused and she needed some time to find back her balance. Although she does not like to tell so, she also thinks that she has nothing to hide: a friend with whom she was associated in the ashram has had very strange experiences with the godman. Yes, indeed, related to sexuality. We had better ask him himself.

from Dutch original by Piet van der Eijk under the title "De Wonderdoener" in the magazine HP/De Tijd, dated 31/1/1992, pages. 46-50, not translated into English until now.

Keith, (26), vertelt dat Sai Baba hem zei, toen hij was uitverkoren voor een persoonlijke ontmoeting, dat hij teveel aan de meisjes dacht. Maar op een volgende gelegenheid ging Baba verder. "Onverhoeds trok hij mijn broek naar beneden en probeerde hij mij seksueel op te winden. Hij nam mijn hand en legde het op zijn geslachtsorgaan. Toen merkte ik dat Sai Baba tweeslachtig was: niet dat hij half-vrouw half-man was, geen hermafrodiet, nee, van het ene ogenblik op het andere veranderde hij van man in vrouw, compleet met de geslachtsorganen die daarbij horen. Vraag me niet hoe dat kan, maar ik heb het zo ervaren. Het moet ook een soort wonder zijn. Kennelijk leeft Sai Baba toch op een ander niveau dan gewone stervelingen." Dit is wat Keith Ord ons vertelt en wij geven het maar door.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): Keith, (26), tells that when he had been chosen for a personal meeting, Sai Baba said to him that he thought too much about girls. But on a next occasion Baba went further. "Suddenly he pulled down my trousers and he tried to excite me sexually. He took my hand and put it on his genitals. Then I noticed that Sai Baba was a hermaphrodite: not that he was half-female half-male, not a hermaphrodite, no, from one moment on the other he changed from male into female, completely with the genitals that belong to it. Do not ask me how this is possible, but I have experienced it this way. It must be some sort of miracle too. Obviously Sai Baba still lives at a another level than mere mortals." This is what Keith Ord tells us and we only convey what he said.

from Dutch original by Piet van der Eijk under the title "De Wonderdoener" in the magazine HP/De Tijd, dated 31/1/1992, pages. 46-50, not translated into English until now.

Keith Ord: "Toen Baba mijn ontsteltenis zag zei hij dat ik niet hoefde te schrikken, want dat ook dit goddelijk was. In grote verwarring ben ik toen naar mijn kamer teruggegaan. Het heeft drie weken geduurd voordat ik er met enkele vrienden die ik daar had ontmoet, onder wie Alexandra, over durfde te praten. Een van de vrienden vertrok na mijn verhaal hals over de kop: hij had exact hetzelfde meegemaakt, inclusief de opmerking van Baba dat dit goddelijk was." Keith ging op onderzoek uit en kreeg van een tiental mannen en jongens te horen dat zij erover konden meepraten. Ze hadden het aanvaard vanuit de gedachte dat ook een godmens niets menselijks vreemd hoeft te zijn, inclusief seksualiteit.

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): Keith Ord: "When Baba saw my dismay he said that I should not be frightened, because this was divine too. In great confusion I then went back to my room anyway. It took three weeks before I dared to talk about it with some friends that I had met there, including Alexandra. One of my friends left after my story in a hurry; he had experienced exactly the same, including the remark by Baba that this was divine." Keith then started to investigate matters and heard from about ten men and boys that they knew a thing or two about it. They had accepted it based on the thought that a godman can be a mere human too, including sexuality.

from Dutch original by Piet van der Eijk under the title "De Wonderdoener" in the magazine HP/De Tijd, dated 31/1/1992, pages. 46-50, not translated into English until now.

Maar zelf is Keith door die gebeurtenis wel uit het lood geslagen. Hij geloofde in Sai Baba, ook in het feit dat hier sprake was van een god in mensengedaante. En dan ineens die nogal agressieve, ongewenste seksuele intimiteit. Hij kon het niet rijmen, "Na enkele weken van innerlijke strijd heb ik met Sai Baba gebroken. Ik realiseer me dat hij huichelt. Hij predikt dat seks alleen mag dienen voor de voortplanting en dat al het andere energieverspilling is van energie en alleen maar de lagere instincten voedt. Dit is wat hij zegt, maar achter gesloten deuren doet hij dan zoiets. Hij spreekt met dubbele tong en dat kan niet voor een godmens. Bovendien maakt hij misbruik van zijn positie."

(ENGLISH TRANSLATION HERE): But Keith himself was thrown off his balance by this event. He had faith in Sai Baba, including in the fact that here we are talking about a god in human form. And then suddenly this aggressive undesired sexual intimacy. He could not reconcile it. "After some weeks of internal struggle I broke with Sai Baba. I realized that he behaves hypocritically. He preaches that sex should only be for procreation and that everything else is a waste of energy and only feeds the lower instincts. This is what he says, but behind closed doors, he does something like this. He speaks with a double tongue and this inappropriate for a godman. Apart from this, he abuses his position. "

from Dutch original by Piet van der Eijk under the title "De Wonderdoener" in the magazine HP/De Tijd, dated 31/1/1992, pages. 46-50, not translated into English until now.

Seeing as this is your talk page and not an article, should I make my corrections to your translation here or somewhere else? Kimberley Verburg 13:11, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Kimberly, many thanks for your offer to correct the translations for neutrality and accuracy. Please make corrections here User_talk:Andries/Translations_SSB_1 Andries 21:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Rebuttals regarding Sathya Sai Baba in wikipedia:lead section

Alternative for User:SSS108/Introductory_Paragraph_Sandbox#Anti-Hindu

The accusations have led to a a variety of responses from followers. SSB himself suggested in a discourse in the year 2000 that people had been bribed to tell lies about him. Some followers and proponents refused to comments, while other followers stated that they consider the accusations lies. Others consider the accusations of fraud in materializations and sexual abuse by Sathya Sai Baba to be untrue and refer instead to the miracles that they say they have experienced. Again others assert that the allegations about acts by Sathya Sai Baba that can be interpreted as sexually intended are probably true, but that he does them to awaken their kundalini energy or to remove previous bad sexual karma. According to a cover article in the India Today magazine in 2000, the coterie that surrounds Baba dismisses these allegations by denouncing them as "anti-Hindu attacks made by foreigners

References

discourse by SSB on 25 December 2000 [http://www.sssbpt.info/ssspeaks/volume33/sss33-23.pdf available online pdf file
Manu Rao, B.S. Sai Baba lashes out at detractrors. Times of India 26 December 2000 available online
"BANGALORE: Sri Sathya Sai Baba on Monday lashed out at his detractors in a rare display of anger while delivering a discourse on the occasion of Christmas at Brindavana, Whitefield ashram here.
In an obvious reference to some of what has been written against him in the recent days, Baba said that many have been bought and they speak against him for the money they have received to do so."
Danmarks Radio aired on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 8:05 pm "Seduced by Sai Baba" transcript available online
"245 00:46:43:02 00:46:46 22 We also asked the travel leader, Lidvin Virkesdal, to comment on the accusations,
246 00:46:47:00 00:46:51:19 but neither did he wish to contribute to our broadcast on this matter.
Brown, Mick Divine downfall 28 Oct. 2000 available online
"When the Telegraph Magazine contacted K Chakravarthi, secretary of the Puttaparthi ashram, he said, 'We have no time for these matters. I have nothing to say' and terminated the call."
"Sai Baba's principal English translator, Anil Kumar, was more forthcoming. Every great religious teacher, he said, had faced criticism in their lifetime. Such allegations had been levelled at Sai Baba since childhood, 'but with every criticism he becomes more and more triumphant'. Kumar said he considered the controversy 'all part of divine plan. It's a paddy field with husks around the rice. Eventually all the unwanted parts will go to leave the true substance inside.'
Goldberg, Michelle, Untouchable? in in salon.com (25 July 2001)
Danmarks Radio aired on Wednesday, January 30, 2002 at 8:05 pm "Seduced by Sai Baba" transcript available online
"247 We were instead referred to Peter Pruzan, a professor at Copenhagen’s Business High School.
248 00:46:56:06 00:47:00:02 He has been a faithful Sai Baba follower for many years.
249 00:47:00:05 00:47:08:04 What is truth? That these people perhaps have had some experiences which they have experienced in their brains, in their minds.
250 00:47:08:07 00:47:13:12 (JOUNALIST) They tell of direct, physical experiences as regards the pedophile interference.
251 00:47:13:15 00:47:18:17 What is the truth? I am not saying that these people are lying -
252 00:47:18:20 00:47:22:15 - that they are not telling what they think they have experienced.
253 00:47:22:18 00:47:26:14 In Jerusalem there are hundreds of people
254 00:47:26:17 00:47:31:13 - who are in psychiatric hospitals,
255 00:47:31:16 00:47:38: 21 who are convinced that they have experienced Jesus. People can experience many things. It is not my errand here to talk to you about this
256 00:47:38:24 00:47:44:02 You ask me for my reaction to what I have seen and heard, and I have given it.
257 00:47:44:05 00:47:48:14 Do you mean that all that they say is completely untrue?
258 00 47:48:17 00:47:51:08 If you ask me what I mean
259 00:47:51:11 00:47:57:04 I would say that Sai Baba, his organisation and his teaching stand for love.
260 00:47:57:07 00:48:04:17 I mean it stands for the message that we should become better people.
261 00:48:04:20 00:48:10:21 It is an organisation that bases itself on the service of society. It shows us the way we should experience this.
262 00:48:10:24 00:48:15:18 - But I asked you if Sai Baba is a pedophile?
- No
263 :48:16:21 00:48:22:12 We also showed Professor Pruzan the shots showing Sai Baba’s conjuring tricks.
264 00:48:22:15 00:48:30:12 If you ask me whether what Sai Baba does is swindle, my answer is definitely not.
265 00:48:30:15 00:48:37:05 I can answer like that because I have experienced it personally.
266 00:48:37:08 00:48:44:06 Sai Baba does things, both on the plane of materialisations -
267 00:48:44:09 00:48:50:11 and on other planes – such as with respect to health and healing.
268 00:48:50:14 00:48:56:14 - that for me is completely clear evidence of certain powers -
269 00:48:56:17 00:49:01:00 - that are beyond what a conjurer has.
270 00:49:01:03 00:49:07:05 Experience that I have had have been both in India in proximity to Sai Baba -
271 00:49:07:08 00:49:10:23 - but have truly also been in my home in Gentofte.
272 00:49:11:01 00:49:14:24 They are of such a nature and of such power -
273 00:49:15:02 00:49:19:16 that I am not for a moment in doubt of -
274 00:49:19:19 00:49:24:19 The authenticity of these wholly extraordinary powers.
Goldberg, Michelle, Untouchable? in salon.com (25 July 2001)
"In an online essay called "Sai Baba and Sex: A Clear View," an American devotee named Ram Das Awle says, "First of all, I believe that Sathya Sai Baba is an Avatar, a full incarnation of God ... AND, from what I've read and heard, I'm inclined to think some of the allegations about Baba are probably true: It appears likely to me that He has occasionally had sexually intimate interactions with devotees." After several rambling paragraphs, the essay concludes that Sai Baba touches men to awaken their "kundalini" energy or to remove previous bad sexual karma, and that "any sexual contact Baba has had with devotees -- of whatever kind -- has actually been only a potent blessing, given to awaken the spiritual power within those souls. Who can call that 'wrong'? Surely to call such contact 'molestation' is perversity itself." "
India Today front page article December 04, 2000 "A God Accused" available online

F. Derks and Jan van der Lans about leaving cults

Unoffical English translation from Dutch "An unequivocal post-cult-syndrome does not exist, but is a fiction that is fed by a one-sided medical-psychatrist portrayal of man in which former members and members of new religious movements are seen as victims of brainwashing that has been reverted casu quo has to to be reverted. Psychological and social problems upon resignation are not rare, but their character and intensity are greatly dependent on a) the previous history and traits of the person, and b) on the motives for and way of resignation."
Offical literal Dutch statement "Een eenduidig post-cult-syndroom bestaat niet, maar is een fictie die gevoed wordt vanuit een eenzijdig medisch-psychiatrisch mensbeeld waarin ex-leden en leden van nieuwe religieuze bewegingen beschouwd worden als slachtoffers van hersenspoeling, die ongedaan is c.q. moet worden gemaakt. Psycho-social problematiek bij uittreding komt niet zelden voor, maar de aard en intensiteit ervan is in grote mate afhankelijk van a)de voorgeschiedenis en predisposities van de persoon en b) de motieven voor en wijze van uittreding."

from F. Derks, Lans, J. van der "Post-cult syndrome Fact or Fiction? ", paper presented at conference of Psychologists of Religion, Catholic University Nijmegen, 1981, also appeared in Dutch language as Post-cult-syndroom; feit of fictie?, published in the magazine Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland/Religious movements in the Netherlands nr. 6 pages 58-75 published by the Free University of Amsterdam (1983) also quoted in Dr. Reender Kranenborg (1992) 'Sektenbestrijding in Nederland in De Tegenbeweging in Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland, ISBN 9053831045

Sincere Apology

Andries, I sincerely apologize for my absense from Misplaced Pages and the mediation process. Unfortunately, other obligations have been pressing me. I feel that this point I should state that I cannot promise a return to the process in any reasonable time frame, and I will have to suggest that the parties seek another mediator or some other means of dealing with the remaining issues. Although I believe that progress was made through the mediation, I also understand that the conflict has not been fully resolved, and I apologize for what feels to me as abandoning the parties. I wish it could be otherwise. Sincerely, --BostonMA 16:16, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

New Request For Mediation

Andries, please see the new Request For Mediation SSS108 04:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Andries, please take a look At This. If you are still considering editing the Sathya Sai Baba Article with your proposed edits, which I find unacceptable, then you need to let me know if you are willing to accept mediation or not. I will have to relist it, as the previous request was removed because you did not agree to it by signing it. Leave your response on my talk page. SSS108 17:24, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Welcome back

I can only say that I managed to do a lot of work in Misplaced Pages (and not on the Prem Rawat article) while you were gone, and that I enjoyed that quite a lot. Hope that your return finds you rested, and that your contibutions to Misplaced Pages will be not only on that article and the article about your ex-guru. I can assure you that there is a lot of pleasure to be derived from editing other articles as well. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link question

Hi Andries,

I am fairly new to Misplaced Pages.

I received the following message from you: "Please read the policies and guidelines for creating a new article, otherwise you may be creating another article that may be deleted. Andries 11:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not mean to say that all books by or about Prabhupada have no place in Misplaced Pages. For example, I voted to keep the Bhagavad Gita As It Is which is a notable book. Andries 11:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)"

I created a page for the book Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link, because I feel that it adds a valid perspective on some of the issues associated with succession in the Hare Krishna movement.

I am not sure if it is the content of my page that is not okay, or if there is something in the wording that is not seen as ok.

More info on the book can be found here:

http://www.chakra.org/discussions/SuccFeb4_03_02.html

My goal is not to make an "advertisement" for the book, but rather to add information that I think is important for understand the issues of succession and initiation.--AlexandreJ 11:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Andries, thank you for the further clarification, and the information about Amazon ranking. For the Misplaced Pages Google test, is there an approximate minimum number of yielded results that would, in your view, be sufficient in this instance to strengthen the case for possible notability?--AlexandreJ 12:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Andries, if I modified the page in such a way that it would be about the Prominent Link (henceforth PL) model of initiation...the general paradigm...as opposed to specifically about the book Srila Prabhupada: The Prominent Link, would this make a stronger case for allowing the page to remain?--AlexandreJ 12:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Andries, thanks for your response. One of the reasons that I see the book as important, is that it provides an additional perspective on initiation/succession, rather than "Ritvik" vs. the ISKCON organization. The book also includes contributions from a number of persons who are, or were, in positions of prominence within the ISKCON organization. In addition to this, it is the first time that I have come across a major statement on initiation/succession in Srila Prabhupada's movement presented as exploratory rather than as supposedly conclusive.--AlexandreJ 16:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

New Mediation Request 2

Since you said you would accept the intervention of mediation, I made another request: Mediation Regarding The Sathya Sai Baba Article SSS108 20:48, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

3RR on Talk:Sikhism

You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future.

This block will expire in twenty-four hours. To contest the block, add {{unblock}} to your talk page (which I will have watchlisted) or e-mail me. AmiDaniel (talk) 22:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Recent Edits

Regarding some of Andries recent edits:

Ref: POV Pushing On The Guru Article

Ref: Citing Original Research Even After Mediation Resolution

Ref 3 Revert Rule Lie

SSS108 00:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediaton Request: Sathya Sai Baba 2

Hi, I'm going to be mediating your case relating to the above article. First thing that we need to decide is what format the mediation should take. I would recommend carrying out the mediation on Misplaced Pages, specifically ]. If you have any objection to using Misplaced Pages, then please let me know. One other thing, if you plan to take a Wikibreak in the next week or so, or know that you will not be around much could you pleaes let me know. --Wisd e n17 12:17, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well technically yes and no. The parties may reject the mediator but if it is a member of the MedCom then this can be taken as the mediation as having failed and the case can then be taken to RfAr. Obviously a mediation cannot take place if parties do not agree to the mediator. However, it is my understanding that no member of the MedCom has ever been rejected as a mediator in a case. You don't appear to have answered my initial question about what format you would like the mediation to take. Is Misplaced Pages ok for you? --Wisd e n17 23:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel I need to explain my position a bit more as you appear not to understand my role. I am a member of the Mediation Committee and as such am an official mediator on Misplaced Pages. I am not filling the same role as a mediator who takes a mediation thorugh the Mediation Cabal, or who simply volunteers. With this in mind it is important to understand how the mediator's role in Misplaced Pages. Whilst you may not wish to have me as the mediator this will lead to a lengthening in what appears to have been a long-running issue. I hope I can work with you in bringing this matter to a state where both parties are happy with the outcome. If you need to contact me you may e-mail me as well as leaving a message on my talk page. --Wisd e n17 23:22, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I much rather we waited until you've finished your wikibreak to begin the mediation. I shall ask Essjay to move to back to pending. If this is seen as a delaying tactic then the case may well be classed as having failed and a RfAr may be filled. --Wisd e n17 22:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Andries contribs proves he has been very active on Misplaced Pages and is not on a wikibreak. I see this as a delaying tactic. SSS108 13:21, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Should I spend all my time and contribution on mediation? I do not think so. Again, I have never been a single purpose contributor and refuse to become one. Andries 16:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you clarify two things:a) how long will you be on a wikibreak, and b) what is the nature of this wikibreak as you appear to still be editing? --Wisd e n17 16:50, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Wisden17, it is abundantly clear that Andries is not interested or dedicated to the mediation process despite his former commitment to participate in mediation (he even signed the request within a few minutes of its submission: Reference). Although Andries was willing to agree to mediation, he is now refusing to state whether or not he accepts you as a mediator and refuses to state why he is not giving an answer. Now Andries is claiming that he does want to contribute his time to mediation and is on a wikibreak. Wisden17, you specifically asked both parties (Andries and myself) to inform you if either of us were going on wikibreak and Andries did not give you an answer. Now, however, after repeatedly asking Andries to give an answer regarding mediation, he is claiming he is on wikibreak. From the 16th (when you informed Andries that you were the mediator) to today, Andries has made no less than 76 edits (mostly on the Guru and Sathya Sai Baba articles) and refuses to answer why he won't accept you as a mediator. I think this type of behavior proves that Andries is not committed to mediation and I would like for you to inform me how to proceed with arbitration. Sincerely, SSS108 18:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I think your "type of behavior," SSS108 is controlling and out of line. You don't get to make demands on people just because you feel like it. Who died and left you boss of the article? What's with you Wikipedians, anyway? You browbeat someone like Andries, who is always civil and polite, and then you further set forth rules, regulations, and time limits on them as if you can actually control others' lives. If Andries wants to take a break from the mediation of the SSB article, that's his right to decide, even if he decides he wants to edit other articles. And you have absolutely no right to smear him on his own talk page like this, making accusations. this is a website, after all. And someone ought to block you for the personal attacks against Andries, or hasn't any administrator noticed this yet??? It also wouldn't hurt the "mediation process" if you knocked off your snottiness, too, SSS108, because that isn't showing any real willingness to be rational and level headed, plus, it obviously rude and shows your distain for Andries. A lot. Sheesh, have a little patience, the SSB article has been there and will be there a long time. Apologies to Andries for my little rant here, but something needed to be said. :-) Sylviecyn 13:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a dispute between these two people that obviously have been having a really hard time moving forward with this long dispute. It does not need your commentary, as it does not help it whatsoever. In fact, I would argue that it does not help Andries a bit, if that was your intention. Please let the dispute resolution take its course, without pouring more oil on the fire. Thank you for your consideration. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:33, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It is amusing that Sylviecyn (i.e. Cynthia) comes forward to defend Andries. Sylviecyn (i.e. Cynthia) vehemently attacks Jossie on the Prem Rawat Talk Forum and ceaseless sucks-up to Andries. Far be it for Sylviecyn, of all people, to give me advice against rudeness and disdain! Sylviecyn, your words are worthless :-) SSS108 02:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Jossi (you're so predictable!) :-) is there a rule somewhere that I broke? If not, I'm quite sure you'll write one very soon just for me. You have a habit of changing the Wiki policies to suit the goals of your subject's advertorials here on Wiki. Meanwhile, please mind your own business Jossi, this isn't your talk page and I wasn't addressing you and you're not my hall monitor either. Again, please stop stalking me around this website, it's getting downright creepy. SSS108, you're still being quite rude, but your reaction to me is pretty funny, too. Do you actually think that by mentioning my real name here with a link to an off-Wiki forum, that your attempt at intimidation is actually scaring me? Do you and Jossi email each other while you stalk Andries and myself around the internet looking for excuses to block us if we write things you don't like about your Gurus/Teachers/Avatars?

Your response to me is inappropriate and mean-spirited, SSS108. Are you calling me an ex-premie, an ex-cult member? :-) I cannot believe you get away with this behavior here. Well, it's obvious now that Misplaced Pages has become a free-for-all for "NRM" leaders and their adherents on Misplaced Pages That's thanks in part the rewrite of the Living Bios article. Based on that, Misplaced Pages ought to now simply put up a welcome notice on the main page: "Calling all NRM Leaders! Free Advertorials for you here on Misplaced Pages now! Write whatever you want about yourselves, we'll allow it, publish and link to it! No critics need apply." But, SSS108 What you've really done is try to make me "guilty by association" and that's definitely not NPOV or civil or a decent thing to do to anyone. Btw, (lol!) I've never once sucked up to anyone in my life, except Prem Rawat -- definitely not Andries. (I've got a big smile on my face over that remark!) Actually, I'm one person who's been confrontational with Andries on the forum which you linked here (not me, and I hope everyone reading notes that). Talk about being polemic and extreme. But, Andries is always a very civil and fair-minded person, and that should be noted by any Wiki mediators, administrators, and other Misplaced Pages-big-wigs, because anyone writing those living bio articles, e.g. Prem Rawat or Sai Babba, etc., that are pro the subject, will talk till they're blue in the face trying to convince others that they have no POV. That's great laugh for the end of a wonderful week for me. Hey all, have a good weekend. I'll leave you all to this very serious business of yours. :-) Sylviecyn 13:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Sylviecyn, I do not know whether your real name is "cynthia" or not. It happens to be the name you use on the Prem Rawat Forum, which is the reason I mentioned it (so others can see the type of posts you make there). It appears that the only person talking herself blue in the face is you. Reread my last post and place particular emphasis on the last sentence. Have a nice day :-) SSS108 18:16, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Long talk page

Greetings! Your talk page is getting a bit long in the tooth - please consider archiving your talk page (or ask me and I'll archive it for you). Cheers! BD2412 T 23:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

RFA

An RFA involving you has been filed: Here SSS108 17:20, 25 June 2006 (UTC)