Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license.
Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat.
We can research this topic together.
{{archive top|result=No, this is not going to happen, and if common sense isn't good enough, I'll invoke IAR. We are not going to define a woman by her husband and enshrine such a definition in the article title, and there is no sense in letting this ride for seven days. Back to the drawing board, and the nominator and others will find some suggestions in the comments below by Fut.Perf. and others. ] (]) 21:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC)}}
{{requested move/dated|Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)}}
] → {{no redirect|Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)}} – The current article title violates ], ], ], ] and ]. The suggested article title satisfies all of these. Explanations are provided below. ] (]) 19:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
] → {{no redirect|Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)}} – The current article title violates ], ], ], ] and ]. The suggested article title satisfies all of these. Explanations are provided below. ] (]) 19:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Line 266:
Line 265:
*'''Support'''. She's notable as the wife of Gordon Brown. I think the idea that it is offensive to say this out loud is wrong-headed. It's a fact of life that non-famous people sometimes marry famous people and WP should look on such facts of life disinterestedly. I'm not even sure there's much of a gender issue here in the 21st century. Julia Gillard lives with a hairdresser, you know. ] (]) 21:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. She's notable as the wife of Gordon Brown. I think the idea that it is offensive to say this out loud is wrong-headed. It's a fact of life that non-famous people sometimes marry famous people and WP should look on such facts of life disinterestedly. I'm not even sure there's much of a gender issue here in the 21st century. Julia Gillard lives with a hairdresser, you know. ] (]) 21:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose.''' If someone is notable enough to merit an article, they don't need to be lumbered with a label implying otherwise. ] (]) 21:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
*'''Oppose.''' If someone is notable enough to merit an article, they don't need to be lumbered with a label implying otherwise. ] (]) 21:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
{{archive bottom}}
Revision as of 21:59, 24 April 2014
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Sarah Jane Brown article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Politics of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Politics of the United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject Politics of the United KingdomPolitics of the United Kingdom
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Buckinghamshire, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.BuckinghamshireWikipedia:WikiProject BuckinghamshireTemplate:WikiProject BuckinghamshireBuckinghamshire
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's History, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Women's history and related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Women's HistoryWikipedia:WikiProject Women's HistoryTemplate:WikiProject Women's HistoryWomen's History
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present.
Requested move 7
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Move request opposed. Whilst some users agreed that the current title is problematic, there is a consensus that the suggested title is not the solution. As some users have recommended, a move request to an alternative title will be begun shortly. (non-admin closure) 131.111.185.66 (talk) 19:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
– The current title at Sarah Jane Brown is problematic. To see this, type 'Sarah Jane Brown' into Google. You will see that, ignoring Misplaced Pages results, the subject of this article barely appears and instead the results are dominated by a not particularly well-known sculptor. This means that the name fails WP:COMMONNAME ('Misplaced Pages ... prefers to use the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources'), WP:MIDDLES#Middle_names_and_abbreviated_names ('Adding middle names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised') and WP:AT ('Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject') . Instead, I propose moving the article to Sarah Brown, the common name of the subject. The article was previously hosted at 'Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)', but some users found this offensive and the article was moved to Sarah Jane Brown. At the time, 'Sarah Brown' was the name of another article: the article now placed at 'Sarah Joy Brown'. This means that the page 'Sarah Brown' is currently free as a disambiguation page. If users are concerned that readers looking for Sarah Joy Brown might simply search for Sarah Brown, then we could place a note at the top of the article. 86.137.46.209 (talk) 21:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Support as nominator. Moving the page to Sarah Brown removes the artificially-induced problems caused by the current article name. The only possible concern is the issue of Sarah Joy Brown, but this is easily alleviated with a hatnote. 86.137.46.209 (talk) 21:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose per many other requested moves where this option (discussed as an alternative to those proposed options) has been explored many times in the past and found wanting. -- 65.94.77.36 (talk) 00:05, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Could you suggest here precisely why you think it wanting? Surely it must be better than using a name that nobody else uses. I will not be around after tonight for this discussion, so I apologise in advance if I do not reply. 86.137.46.209 (talk) 00:12, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose the current title is a concession to objections to Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) as the dab, in the case of an inherited notability spouse of a politician being given a standalone page rather than a paragraph in the main politician article. But the more important issue is that "Sarah Brown is" and "Sarah Brown was" show no Primary topic, therefore we cannot have a primary topic here, period. Find another way to deal with article on Gordon Brown's wife. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:35, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. Oppose. The current title has no serious problem. Sarah Jane Brown (born 1963), charity director, wife of former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, is a weakly notable figure, and there should be no surprise that excluding wikipedia generates a nearly wikipedia-notable alternative. There are too many Sarah Browns, even just in England, and so this person is not the PrimaryTopic. If there is a title problem, it is the absence of "Macaulay". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:24, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. Just because the other relatively notable "Sarah Brown" is at Sarah Joy Brown does not mean this Sarah Brown is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Sarah Brown - she isn't. I agree the current title is problematic for the reasons states, but this is not the solution. --B2C02:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
True, but don't you see an IAR solution here? (see my proposal below). In the absence of consensus on any other solution, wouldn't you agree Sarah Brown is a better title than this one?--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. The present setup serves our readers well: Google puts this article at the top of search results for "Sarah Brown", with Sarah Joy Brown runner up. Misplaced Pages takes the searcher to a clear and straightforward disambiguation page. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Support This would solve the problems all round. Her given name is "Sarah" not "Sarah Jane" (a common forename in its own right) and the current name is completely unrecognisable and not serving readers at all well. Timrollpickering (talk) 09:28, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
Tim, but it seems the British Sarah Brown is only Primary in the UK. The American Sarah Brown was only moved to "Talk:Sarah Joy Brown" because of her personal website, but latest series and other sources don't call the American Sarah Brown "Joy" any more than anyone calls the British Sarah Brown "Jane". The real solution to this is to admit (in parenthesis) where the British Sarah Brown's notability comes from... In ictu oculi (talk) 01:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
support per WP:IAR. Yes, Sarah Brown is not technically the "primary" topic here, but this title is a million times better than the current one, which uses a middle name which is, literally, never used in reliable sources to refer to this person. In the last move request, I think we found one source - and a rather poor one at that - that used this middle name. The current title is really just bad for users, so the encyclopedia will be BETTER if we rename. Thus, per IAR, move.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 13:12, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
If it is the case, then we have a duty to find a better disambiguator; that editors cannot agree on such among themselves is not a not a good enough reason to mislead our readers into believing that the wife is more of a wp:primarytopic than the politician or the actress, and doing so would be nothing but irresponsible laziness on our side. victor falk16:34, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't think it's as bad as all that. She is clearly more primary than the politician, likely less so than the actress (at least in terms of "hits", but since the actress is already at Sarah Joy Brown, we're not really doing readers a disservice. And again, this is why IAR exists - I think given the choice between SJB and SB, SB is infinitely better for the READER, even if it means one more click to get to the "real" sarah brown they were supposedly looking for - since the reader who is looking for _this_ Sarah Brown knows they're at the right spot, and isn't thrown off by a middle name which NEVER appears in RS mentions of this lady. During the last move I proposed a number of other disambiguators, focused on her work as a charity and women's advocate, but people pooh-pooh'ed those, so we ended up with the lowest-common denominator middle-name dab which is, frankly, crap.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 16:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose as the importance of the subject of the article is likely to continue to decrease over time due to her husband no longer being Prime Minister. The original article title "Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)" seems to be the best solution, if one is needed.. ~Excesses~ (talk) 22:41, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Comment. It seems apparent that, even though the current title is believed by many to be a poor title, this request will not succeed because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Some have suggested above that a different form of disambiguation should be used, in particular, specifying the she is the wife of Gordon Brown. I have gone through the Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies and I believe there is an extremely strong case for such a move. In addition, I believe that the pages previously cited opposing this name are not valid. I have prepared a draft move request that explains these matters. If this move request does not succeed (which seems to be likely), I shall post what I have prepared and, hopefully, we can reach a better title. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 13:10, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Essentially, yes. Some of the commentators above have suggested that such a move will be the best form of disambiguation, which is why I have researched it. The only (very slight) difference is that the previous move request was not a request from Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) to Sarah Jane Brown: it was a move to something undetermined and the closer happened to believe that Sarah Jane Brown was the most commonly suggested alternative. After going through the Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, I am confident that these complete support Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) and not Sarah Jane Brown. What do you think?131.111.185.66 (talk) 19:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Lol, no. This article will return to the "wife of Gordon Brown" over the dead bodies of many participants here, I have no doubt. It was an awful, patriarchal throwback of a title, not to be repeated again. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Here is precisely the problem with the argument against Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown): some users are opposed to it simply because of their personal opinions about social matters. This is a direct violation of WP:NPOV, which states that 'editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.' Using an obscure name for Mrs Brown in preference to how she is usually described by reliable sources goes against WP:NPOV, and is something that can be resolved by changing the article name to Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown). I must emphasise, though, that this discussion is about a move to Sarah Brown. I do not think it is appropriate to be discussing the merits of Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) here. I just thought it might be relevant to inform editors of my research. I suggest, Tarc, that we leave this for a week. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 19:41, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Welcome to the bizarro world of first-world-problems and "men-saving-the-world-from-misogyny", first up our guest Anthonyhcole. To Anthony, "Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown)" is a "demeaning, patronising, insulting, 50's boy's club title". Now, this is how Sarah Brown (the real one), begins the preface to her book, Behind the black Door, which describes the period of her life she is arguably most notable for: "In writing this book, I hope to cast a light on the role of the Prime Minister's spouse and all that it entails. As the wife of Gordon Brown, I spent three years living and working at Number 10 Downing Street." So, if you put Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) in 24 point bold font on top of the webpage, it is, well, a very long list of adjectives that usually includes sexist and a few other nasty ones. But if you as the author describe yourself in this way, twice, in the first two sentences of your autobiography, or if someone introduces you in this way, or if a RS news article about you that says "Sarah Brown, wife of the prime minister" or "Sarah Brown, wife of Gordon Brown, today xxx", then it's all fine and dandy. ONLY in the title does it transform into a piece of misogynistic drivel, at least in the minds of some here. Maybe it's the bold font? Go figure...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:30, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
The book was about how it is to be the wife of the Prime Minister, about 3 years of her life, and she describes it as such. Naming her biography is something else. It is defining her, to some extent. Sorry you can't see that. Or, if you can see it, sorry you can't see how demeaning it is. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 17:53, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Anthony, I do appreciate your thoughts about this. The problem, though, is that it is not down to editors to decide what is demeaning and what is not demeaning. WP:NPOV clearly states that we must edit using reliable sources without bias. Reliable sources typically disambiguate her as the wife of Gordon Brown, and ignoring this because of how we feel is inconsistent with WP:NPOV. There are many other aspects of Misplaced Pages that might offend some people, but they are left in place because they are representative of reliable sources.
With good intentions, I cannot see the benefit of discussing this further here, even though I am sure we all have much to say. This is a move request to Sarah Brown, not to Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown). The matter can be discussed soon, but I do not think it is constructive to do so whilst the current move request is taking place.
Since this move request is extremely unlikely to occur, would there be any objections if another user were to close this move request before the recommended seven days? 131.111.185.66 (talk) 18:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
NPOV does not require this project to act like a misogynist asshat, nor does it dictate that the title of an article should ever be in the form of "spouse of X". If a person is truly 100% only notable in the context of whom he or she is married to, then such an article should be deleted on WP:NOTINHERITED grounds. If not, then the article shall be titled after the person's name, and disambiguated accordingly. "Wife of Gordon Brown" was a terrible, ugly choice, and whoever made it at whatever time should be smacked. Righting a bad terminology choice is not a violation of NPOV in the slightest. Stop making inane assertions that are not reflected by reality. Tarc (talk) 18:32, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
There is a very simple argument against WP:NOTINHERITED, Tarc. As I wrote above, though, absolutely nothing will be gained by discussing it here, even though we all have much to say. We can discuss it properly later. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 18:46, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose While I agree that there are legitimate problems about how we title this article, I suggest that this is an inappropriate solution given that she is not by the normal standards the primary meaning of Sarah Brown. Even in Britain she had a lower profile than the spouses of some other PMs, a post she only held for 3 years. I had not heard of the American actress before, but reading her article she looks fairly important, many Americans might regard her as the primary meaning. PatGallacher (talk) 18:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)#
Comment. Since it is almost clear that this move request will be unsuccessful, would it be appropriate for it to be closed so as to avoid unnecessary discussion? I have prepared an alternative request that addresses the concerns here and has a good chance of being more successful. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 18:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Endorse procedural close & re-submission Ok by me. It's better than beating around the bush around the true controversy, the w-word as disambiguator for this article. victor falk19:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply, Victor_falk. How would the request be closed? Could it be done by any user or must a formal request be submitted? I have already prepared a thorough assessment of guidelines and policies with a move request template than can simply be copied onto this talk page. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 19:14, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
There is no formal way. Any non-involved editor could do it (or even an involved one feeling wp:bold); ask an admin or at WP:RM#talk. If you are feeling bold, follow the closing instructions at WP:RMCI and then submit your own proposal. victor falk19:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 8
No, this is not going to happen, and if common sense isn't good enough, I'll invoke IAR. We are not going to define a woman by her husband and enshrine such a definition in the article title, and there is no sense in letting this ride for seven days. Back to the drawing board, and the nominator and others will find some suggestions in the comments below by Fut.Perf. and others. Drmies (talk) 21:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) passes all five of WP:CRITERIA; Sarah Jane Brown passes none.
A good Misplaced Pages article title has the five following characteristics:
Recognisability – The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognise.
Mrs Brown's middle name is rarely used in reliable sources (as shown in the below box for WP:COMMONNAME). Thus Sarah Jane Brown fails recognisability. Sarah Brown is almost always used in reliable sources and she is most often referred to as Gordon Brown's wife. Thus Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) meets recognisability (also shown in WP:COMMONNAME below).
Naturalness – The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such titles usually convey what the subject is actually called in English.
The most natural title would be Sarah Brown, but this is not available because Mrs Brown is not the primary topic. In other articles where Mrs Brown is mentioned (click ‘What links here’ at the side of the page), she is very often described as Gordon Brown's wife. From my counting, she is linked to in 34 other articles, of which 28 immediately identify her as being Gordon Brown’s wife. This means that Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) is probably the next best alternative in terms of naturalness. On the other hand, since the name Sarah Jane is essentially non-existent, Sarah Jane Brown fails naturalness.
Precision – The title is sufficiently precise to unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) clearly meets precision, because readers understand who she is from this title. Sarah Jane Brown fails precision because it is essentially impossible for readers to identify Mrs Brown using a name by which she is hardly known.
Conciseness – The title is no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) meets conciseness because there is no obvious way to shorten the title whilst still disambiguating her (since the page cannot be at Sarah Brown). Sarah Jane Brown cannot even be assessed for conciseness since it is essentially impossible for readers to identify her in the first place.
Consistency – The title is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. Many of these patterns are listed (and linked) in the box of Topic-specific conventions on article titles.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) is consistent in that there are many similar article titles for people who are primarily known for their relationship to another person and must be disambiguated because of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (see the below box). Sarah Jane Brown seemingly fails consistency because there are very few (if any pages) on Misplaced Pages where we have disambiguated using an obscure name used by virtually no other reliable sources.
Non-exhaustive list of articles that disambiguate using a family relationship (for point five of WP:CRITERIA).
Many other articles exist that describe a subject as a relation of another subject as part of the title. Although many of these are for historical figures (presumably because these are often known by one name, rather than a forename and surname, meaning that disambiguation is more often necessary), there are still a number that are for more recent persons. Note that there is a broad range of figures: not just wives. This list is not exhaustive.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) passes WP:COMMONNAME; Sarah Jane Brown does not.
Misplaced Pages prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will be the most recognizable and the most natural.
The common name for Mrs Brown is unequivocally Sarah Brown. A crude way to see this is to type 'Gordon Brown wife' into Google (using Mr Brown is simply a good way to remove any bias by typing Sarah or Sarah Jane as a search term, and it also removes lots of the hits for other Sarah Browns: please do not take this offensively). Ignoring the Misplaced Pages results, see how far you must go until Sarah Jane is found in place of Sarah. It is barely existent. Only one reference (from The Guardian) has been provided above for Sarah Jane, which was an article written on her wedding day that still used her maiden name.
To be more precise about these observations, I have manually checked every BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/) article since 1 January 2011 that mentions Mrs Brown by name (rather than just ‘Gordon Brown’s wife’). I am ignoring three problematic pages (such as their profile on Gordon Brown) from which it is difficult to determine usage. From my counts, she appears on 30 different pages. Of these, 28 describe her first as the wife of Gordon Brown whilst 0 use Jane.
Interestingly, there is a discussion in one of the archives of this article where users wrote that they did not even know Mrs Brown’s middle name and should attempt to find it. Considering this discussion took place one month before Gordon Brown left office, it is quite obvious just how obscure Jane is.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) passes WP:MIDDLES; Sarah Jane Brown does not.
Adding middle names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised.
Since there are other prominent Sarah Browns, disambiguation has been made here by including Jane. However, Jane is not commonly used for Mrs Brown. Therefore Sarah Jane Brown contravenes WP:MIDDLES.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) passes WP:NPOV; Sarah Jane Brown does not.
Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.
Essentially every source describes Mrs Brown as the wife of Gordon Brown, usually as the primary form of disambiguation (rather than something like businesswoman or activist: see WP:COMMONNAME above). Using Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) therefore satisfies WP:NPOV , because it is fairly representing the usage of reliable sources without bias.
On the other hand, using Sarah Jane Brown, a name that is almost non-existent when describing Mrs Brown, fails WP:NPOV. This is because the name has been chosen since some editors hold the personal belief that describing Mrs Brown as the wife of Gordon Brown in the title is wrong. Ignoring the usage of reliable sources due to a personal opinion on social matters is a breach of WP:NPOV.
Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) passes WP:POVTITLE (which includes WP:POVNAME and WP:NDESC and is an expansion of WP:POVNAMING).
Some users have previously linked to WP:POVTITLE. There are two aspects to this depending on whether the article title is a name derived from reliable sources or a descriptive title created by Misplaced Pages editors. Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) falls in the latter case. Here (under WP:NDESC), it states that non-neutral but common names ... may be used within a descriptive title. Even supposing that describing Mrs Brown as the wife of Gordon Brown is non-neutral (which is a violation of WP:NPOV in itself), WP:POVTITLE actually states that Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) is acceptable, because common sources disambiguate her as the wife of Gordon Brown.
Notes
Some points have previously been raised in discussions about this page concerning WP:NOTINHERITED, WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS and WP:BLP. These are addressed below, because they are a frequent cause of misunderstanding.
WP:NOTINHERITED
Some users have written that, if Mrs Brown is notable only for being the wife of Gordon Brown, then this page should be merged with Gordon Brown because of WP:NOTINHERITED. The following quotation from the page, however, indicates that this is untrue: this does not apply to situations where the fact of having a relationship to another person inherently defines a public position that is notable in its own right, such as a national First Lady or membership of a Royal house. This means, in particular, that it is entirely normal to have a separate article about someone who is best known for his or her marriage.
WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS
Some users have previously linked to WP:SYSTEMATICBIAS. This is only an essay and is not part of Misplaced Pages’s policies or guidelines. Despite this, there is nowhere within the essay that states that titles should go against reliable sources in order to correct a general perceived systematic bias within society: the essay just states users should document underrepresented cultures and topics more thoroughly.
WP:BLP and Mrs Brown’s preference
Mrs Brown begins her memoir, Behind the Black Door, with the following sentences:
In writing this book, I hope to cast a light on the role of the Prime Minister's spouse and all that it entails. As the wife of Gordon Brown, I spent three years living and working at Number 10 Downing Street.
It is therefore apparent that Mrs Brown is more than happy to identify herself as the wife of Gordon Brown. Some users have previously raised WP:BLP, which states that the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. Considering Mrs Brown’s own description of herself, it seems far-fetched to claim that Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) has the potential to cause harm to Mrs Brown.
General remarks and notices
Editors must approach this discussion with a neutral point of view. This means considering Misplaced Pages's guidelines and policies alongside the usage of reliable sources, rather than giving a personal opinion on what they might consider to be offensive.
As described at WP:CONSENSUS and WP:VOTE, the decision whether to move the page is based not on the number of votes for each choice but on the quality of the reasons made. This means that users should not give a preference without any kind of substantiation, because it is the reasoning itself that determines the outcome of the move request.
As well as Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown), there is a possibility of a move to Sarah Brown (spouse of Gordon Brown) amongst others. I chose the former for two reasons: the use of wife seems to be more common in reliable sources than the use of spouse, and wife is a more precise term than spouse. Since this request is potentially controversial, to maintain simplicity, it might be best only to consider Sarah Brown (wife of Gordon Brown) and Sarah Jane Brown here: if there might be consensus for a different title, then a subsequent move request can be made afterwards, independent of the result of this one.
A panel of three administrators has been requested at WP:ANI to close this discussion after seven days. I shall update this bullet point once the panel has been confirmed.
Strong support as nominator. Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies overwhelmingly support that the suggested move: it changes a title that is entirely non-conforming to one that conforms perfectly well. Whilst I understand the concerns some users have over such a title, it goes against the very principles of Misplaced Pages to allow a non-neutral point of view to take precedence over reliable sources. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 19:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
support very clearly argued case based on policy. Sarah Jane Brown as the lowest-common-denominator result from the last RM is inherently anti-user because this person is never referred to in RS with this middle name. Fwiw I'd also support (Prime Minister's wife) or (wife of UK Prime Minister) as it was really her relationship to the PM that brought her significant notability not just Gordon - in this way it's more like (First lady of the US) or something similar. I don't think there would be a major concern with the fact that she is no longer the PM's wife, the point is, she was. But, (wife of Gordon Brown) is perfectly fine as well. I'm wondering how long it is before you are accused of sexism or misogyny for your well argued, policy-based case - my guess is it will happen in 3...2...1...--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 20:21, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose or more to the point, no fucking way. Having attempted to nip this b.s. in the bud earlier in the week, and then correctly prognosticating the current request, I feel a refreshing sense of vindication. The recent move requests by IP editors for both this article and for Hillary Rodham Clinton is too strong of a coincidence to ignore; this has been a year+ -long campaign, a systemic, gender-based bias by identity-hiding IP users who are obviously too familiar with Misplaced Pages processes to be genuinely "new" users. The case here is particularly egregious, as it seeks a return to a title format one might find discussed in an episode of Mad Men. There is absolutely no cause or reason to ever return to a patronizing, sexist terminology such as "spouse of X"; it is not in violation of WP:NPOV to decline to choose such a backwards title. Start with the woman's name "Sarah Brown" and disambiguate from there as necessary. Surely the 18-35 yr old males that make up the bulk of this site's userbase can think of something, anything more creative than phrasing it as she was a possession of her husband. Tarc (talk) 20:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Tarc and I disagree on pretty much everything, except on the point that tin-eared chauvinism doesn't belong on this project. If you can summon up the courage to talk to a woman and find one who will talk to you, ask her what she thinks of this move. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose This article is about a person who has a name Sarah Jane Brown. If she's only notable for being someone's wife, this article needs to be deleted and redirected to a section in her husband's article. USchick (talk) 20:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
USchick, did you read the above note about WP:NOTINHERITED? Mrs Brown is the wife of the former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown. In these cases, there is a specific exception meaning that a deletion and redirect it neither necessary nor appropriate (open the box above to see this). 131.111.185.66 (talk) 20:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, not a "Who's Who" list and not a "Who's the Wife" list. If she's notable enough to have her own article, she doesn't need her husband's approval. She is a person of legal age and she has her own name. I'm not aware of any exception to that. USchick (talk) 21:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Did you happen to notice that the articles you mention are about the position, not the person? This article is about a person who has a name. USchick (talk) 21:22, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I did notice that. If you open the articles and click through the names on the articles, you will see that many of the persons listed there are in a similar, if not identical, situations to Mrs Brown. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:28, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Per your request, I clicked on their names, and I didn't see their article titles saying "wife of" so it's not the same situation at all. What will happen when she is no longer the "Wife"? Will the article be renamed "Widow of" or "Ex-wife of"? To name the article as anything other than her name is extremely short sighted for an encyclopedia. USchick (talk) 21:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
As I wrote above, that is because they are all primary topics: it is only with Mrs Brown that we need to disambiguate. I was using them as good examples that we have many articles about people, both male and female, who are only notable for their marriages. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
oppose she is either en wiki notable or not - and if she is then she should stand up under her own name, if not then add some detail in the main story, her husband and delete her story Mosfetfaser (talk) 21:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Mosfetfaser, did you read the above note about WP:NOTINHERITED (see the above box)? It explains that people 'having a relationship to another person inherently defines a public position that is notable in its own right, such as a national First Lady' can have their own articles, even if they are not notable in their own right. This is why we cannot simply delete or merge this article. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. The choice of disambiguator easily comes across to the reader as more than a mere technicality (even though maybe that's what in an ideal world it ought to be). It carries implications about why a person is notable and what defines them. In terms of Misplaced Pages policy, to imply that she is notable primarily for just being somebody else's wife casts doubt upon the legitimacy of the article as a whole – as USchick rightly says, if that were really the case, it should be merged. In terms of real-life implications, suggesting to the reader that being somebody else's wife is what primarily defines her comes across as a sexist slight. This must be avoided as a matter of WP:BLP. Even if it should be the case that many members of the public do primarily know her because she is somebody's wife, that is not what makes her technically notable in the sense of justifying her article. Like BD2412, I wouldn't mind using some other disambiguator based on her professional role, such as Sarah Brown (philanthropist). Fut.Perf.☼21:39, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Future Perfect, her article can be justified using WP:NOTINHERITED as the wife of a British Prime Minister, even if she is not notable in her own right (read the box above). This is why we cannot just merge or delete the article. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 21:52, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Support. She's notable as the wife of Gordon Brown. I think the idea that it is offensive to say this out loud is wrong-headed. It's a fact of life that non-famous people sometimes marry famous people and WP should look on such facts of life disinterestedly. I'm not even sure there's much of a gender issue here in the 21st century. Julia Gillard lives with a hairdresser, you know. Formerip (talk) 21:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. If someone is notable enough to merit an article, they don't need to be lumbered with a label implying otherwise. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:57, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Categories:
.svg){kind=small}
