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Comics: Marvel Start‑class Mid‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Comics, a collaborative effort to build an encyclopedic guide to comics on Misplaced Pages. Get involved! If you would like to participate, you can help with the current tasks, visit the notice board, edit the attached article or discuss it at the project's talk page.ComicsWikipedia:WikiProject ComicsTemplate:WikiProject ComicsComics Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by Marvel Comics work group.

DC Universe Hydra

In Batman#167, November 1964, the Earth-1 Batman and Robin faced a crime cartel called Hydra. This story, "Zero Hour For Earth" was reprinted in Showcase Presents Batman. The Earth-1 Batman opposed them in Holland, Greece, Switzerland and Singapore with CIA help. (Yes, the CIA was referred to by name.) They used the tip-off from Batman #62 about an apparently big man only wearing a disguise because a chair can support his weight. -- 23:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)~Enda80

... HalfShadow 21:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes;it's the group now known as Leviathan in Batman Incorporeted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.122.220.8 (talk) 17:24, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Bob: Agent of HYDRA

In issue #38 of Cable and Deadpool, the character of Bob was introduced. In a breakage of the fourth-wall, it was mentioned that Fabian Nicieza was pitching him for a mini-series of his own. I've added the character to the list of HYDRA members. If the series isn't published, y'all can delete the line if you want. HXcGeek 08:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Operative 128

I cannot remember where I read this anymore, but I distinctly recall a comic about Hydra set in the past. In it, was a Hydra member only refered to as Operative 128. It was implied in this story that 128 was in actually Wolverine. They didn't come right out and say it, but the intention was clear. Anyone have something more solid on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.66.146.104 (talk) 06:09, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It's not "HYDRA" anywhere but on Misplaced Pages. It should be "Hydra".

I am not really into editing Misplaced Pages, but I thought it should be known that the terrorist organization is named "Hydra" not "HYDRA". It's not an acronym, and it shouldn't be in all-caps. The main Misplaced Pages page for Hydra has yet to get a citation for all-caps to be "Marvel's official spelling", and even Marvel's own Wiki uses the standard "Hydra" spelling, so I don't know where the Misplaced Pages editors got it in their heads that it's supposed to be "HYDRA". http://marvel.com/universe/Hydra —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.243.195.121 (talk) 03:51, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I just changed it. It contradicts both Marvel's web page and Misplaced Pages's MOS. --91.10.24.244 (talk) 03:19, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

From S.H.I.E.L.D.: "The acronym originally stood for Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage, Law-Enforcement Division. It was changed in 1991 to Strategic Hazard Intervention Espionage Logistics Directorate.

Within the various films set within the Marvel Cinematic Universe, the acronym stands for Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division."

Earth's Mightiest Heroes

In the following interview, Christopher Yost says Nazis still exist in this cartoon, so should someone remove the note in the article about HYDRA replacing the Third Reich? http://www.medinnus.com/AEMH/yost_01.html 134.48.161.64 (talk) 16:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

The end and/or replacement of the Third Reich doesn't mean that Nazis no longer exist. --Loremaster (talk) 16:37, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Well, he also says in the interview that Germany still became an Axis power. Does that mean the Third Reich existed in this show? 134.48.161.64 (talk) 01:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I think the idea that the HYDRA “replaced” the Third Reich simply means that HYDRA stopped being a mere tool of the Third Reich and actually became autonomous from, and even more powerful than, the Third Reich... --Loremaster (talk) 01:54, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

That contradicts the interview, too; since Yost said HYDRA still worked for the Nazis! 166.137.141.249 (talk) 15:12, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Not it doesn't. The point is that even though they still worked for the Nazis their autonomy and power was overwhelming. There are examples in the real world where the secret police of a government becomes so powerful that they unofficially replace the government in practice but not in name. --Loremaster (talk) 18:35, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I'm blinded by my own interpretation, but could you please explain to me what exactly Christopher Yost said in the interview that makes you think this was one of those cases? 134.48.160.99 (talk) 19:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I am simply explaining what the writer of the sentence you dispute may have meant but feel free to change the sentence to something you think is more accurate. --Loremaster (talk) 19:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Menace #10

I do not own Menance #10 nor the hardcover reprint, although it is on my wishlist. The story appears in Crypt of Shadows #5, which I do own. HYDRA is mentioned twice in the story, and there is nothing about it that differentiates it from HYDRA of the Marvel Universe. I don't know if this bit was an edit to tie it into Marvel continuity (although in a horror reprint title, I'm not sure why) or if this was how the story was originally printed.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 18:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Title and term change

New section for those wishing to discuss changing "HYDRA" to "Hydra" with regard to this article and where it crops up in other Marvel Comics related pages. A few ground rules:

• Sign your posts.
• If you are editing without an account on a dynamic IP or from varying locations, please make it clear which posts are yours. If you cannot or will not, it will be treated as a case of sockpuppeting.
• Since the change has been contested, arguments for the change are going to need to provide sources and references for the change.

Keep it noce,

- J Greb (talk) 16:44, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The 1983 OHOTMU writes it "HYDRA" in every instance it is used, as does the OHOTMU Deluxe Edition. Anyone who has access to these sources can verify this. 99.126.204.164 (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

And Marvel's official website, which is linked from the article and a better reflection of current editorial policy, specifically doesn't spell it in all-caps. --There are no names left (talk) 23:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

That's not Marvel's official site. That's Marvel's official wiki. Misplaced Pages disallows user-submitted content, including wikia, to be used as references. That's the first part. Second, Misplaced Pages isn't subject to recentism; if the name has been spelled one way for over 40 years of comics, that's the way we spell it. Any recent and possibly temporary alternate spellings can be given in a properly cited footnote. --Tenebrae (talk) 04:21, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

It's Hydra, not HYDRA, in the Handbooks of the 2000s. And before someone uses Tenebrae's "recentism" argument, it hasn't been spelled HYDRA for 40 years. Most text in comics is in block capitals, so you can't use that to argue that it was spelled HYDRA 40 years ago, not unless you also want to claim that we should be using SPIDER-MAN and CAPTAIN AMERICA instead of Spider-Man and Captain America. A post by one of the Handbook writers on their official forum makes it clear that the lower case usage in the modern handbooks is a deliberate thing, making it a correction to the 1980s books usage of HYDRA. 86.184.126.9 (talk) 08:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Tenebrae for what it's worth. 76.232.28.105 (talk) 15:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

That's great for Tenebrae, but amounts to nothing in terms of this debate. The page claims, without a citation to back it up, that HYDRA is Marvel's official spelling. However, Marvel's most recent handbooks, which would have more of an idea of what the official spelling is than Misplaced Pages does, say Hydra. 86.184.126.9 (talk) 21:54, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• It's pretty simple: is it an acronym? Then all-caps. No? Then no all-caps. Typography is not spelling, so Marvel is not "spelling" the name with all-caps, they're styling it with all-caps. See: MOS:ALLCAPS for the official guideline. Curly Turkey (gobble) 00:30, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

And putting aside correct terminology, Marvel is neither spelling it nor stylizing it all-caps. Again, if we are talking how Marvel officially presents the name, then the Official Handbook entry on Hydra is clear - no caps (except for the H). 86.184.126.9 (talk) 02:15, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly second Curly Turkey. When I saw that Hydra was in all capitals on Misplaced Pages, I assumed that by some retcon the name was now an acronym. If that's not the case, it should be "Hydra" on Misplaced Pages regardless of any official stylization.--NukeofEarl (talk) 18:31, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

So, several days go past and no counter-arguments? Have those who favoured HYDRA accepted they were wrong, or are they just not wanting to risk debating it because if they did so they might be forced to concede the point? I'd change the page, except I bet that, as is all too common on Misplaced Pages, someone (who hasn't bothered to engage in the debate here) would swoop in, revert it, and then insist no one else should change it back without discussing it - and then, of course, they wouldn't actually come here to discuss it. After all, that's pretty much what the last person to revert it to HYDRA did - "look at the talk page, this has been resolved already." 86.184.124.210 (talk) 12:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, when several days have passed without further discussion the proper course of action is to boldly edit again. If your bold edit is not reverted, then the issue is resolved; if it is reverted, then you've succeeded in getting the discussion going again. If someone repeatedly reverts your edit without participating in the discussion, then they are edit warring and may be reported to the Administrators' notice board.--NukeofEarl (talk) 14:25, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay, since it has been ten day since anyone has responded to support the "keep it HYDRA" version, and that support was simply repeating an "I agree with a prior poster" with no reasons or evidence to back that stance, and since multiple subsequent posters have stated cases why it should be Hydra rather than HYDRA, I'm going to go with NukeorEarl's advice and edit again. To any would-be reverters - please have the good manners to discuss before reverting. 86.184.125.155 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 18:29, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• I've moved the page to "Hydra (Marvel comics)"—maybe that's not the best disambig, but Hydra is obviously unacceptable, and it can't stay at HYDRA. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:23, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Bob, Agent of HYDRA should also be moved, to Bob, Agent of Hydra. I've corrected the all caps HYDRA's on the page in question, but am unsure on the protocol for moving pages. 86.184.123.52 (talk) 20:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The request to rename this article to Hydra (comics) has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Hydra (Marvel Comics) → Hydra (comics) – There is no other notable entity called Hydra in comics, so no further disambiguation is needed. HalfShadow pointed out above that there was group that used name in 1960s era Batman comics but someone else said that the group now is called Leviathan. I do not know if this is true, just assuming good faith but either way this article is the WP:PRIMARY topic of Hydra (comics). The name redirects here anyway. TriiipleThreat (talk) 10:32, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• Should preference be given to Hydra being in the world of "comics", or to being fictional characters? They are Marvel Comics properties ("Marvel Comics" includes movie franchises, etc), but are their appearances restricted to comics (or be considered so, even if they have been so far)? Curly Turkey (gobble) 10:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
  • That is the way our naming conventions are currently set up including Hulk (comics) and Wolverine (comics) amongst others, who have appeared in a wide variety of media.---TriiipleThreat (talk) 10:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Are dismabiguations not supposed to be as general as possible (e.g. "writer" rather than "novelist", unless there are two writers with the same name). The fact that it has been done elsewhere should never be presented as an argument that that is the way things should be done. Curly Turkey (gobbl Lqae) 22:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
    • It appears that (character) is a well-established dismabiguation, though problematic I suppose for a group ... Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:00, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
      • The guideline specifically states "When disambiguation is needed use (comics), or (company) where that is not appropriate."--TriiipleThreat (talk) 23:24, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
        • It doesn't matter what the WikiProject guideline states, the sitewide guidelines take precedence. Project guidelines supplement—never override—stewide guidelines. Take a moment to reflect on why that may be. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:09, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
          • WP:PG does not differentiate between "project" guidelines and "sitewide" guidelines. A guideline is a guideline.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 01:20, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
            • TriiipleThreat, you're not seriously going to waste everyone's time with a line of "reasoning" that declares that any fringe Project can simply come along and rewrite the sitewide community consensus, are you? Curly Turkey (gobble) 02:01, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
              • You put forward the statement, so back it up with a policy or guideline.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 02:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
                • So you are going to waste everyone's time with your unsupportable horseshit. Good luck working up a consenses. I, for one, strong oppose. Curly Turkey (gobble) 13:35, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
                  • I like how you get upset when you cannot support your claim. Either support it with policy or guideline or concede the point and move on.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 13:55, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
                    • As the proposer of the move, and the proposer of the proposterous claim that WikiProject guidelines can somehow override the sitewide guidelines without causing massive intractable problems, the onus is actually on you to provide evidence for your horseshit. Apparently you can't even be bothered to read the main page of the Manual of Style, where Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Levels of consensus is cited conveniently in a footnote:

                      "This is a matter of policy at Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Levels of consensus: 'Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.' And: 'Misplaced Pages has a higher standard of participation and consensus for changes to policies and guidelines than to other types of pages.'" Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:29, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

                      • Thank you, I concede that WP:AT still applies (also didn't realize this was policy, not guideline) but I argue that WP:CMOS#NAME still applies as well as the primary scope of the article is the comics and all other appearances are derivative works limited to an "In other media" section.--TriiipleThreat (talk) 10:59, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Several comics feature the mythological hydra in them, and there's a Transformers character named "Hydra". So we should not use ambiguous disambiguation. Particularly since one would think with the requested name, that it was a overview of mythological hydras in comics. This is not the primary topic of "hydra", so should be properly disambiguated instead of ambiguously disambiguated. -- 65.94.171.206 (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
  • The existence of other subjects by the same name is irrelevant unless those subjects have articles of their own. This is why Louise Simonson's article is at "Louise Simonson" and not "Louise Simonson (X-Men editor)" even though there exist at least a dozen other people named Louise Simonson, and why Bullseye's article is at "Bullseye (comics)" and not "Bullseye (second Marvel Comics character)]]" even though there was a Marvel Comics character named Bullseye around before him.--NukeofEarl (talk) 12:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support per nom. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 04:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose "(comics)": as per policy, disambigs must be as general as reasonable. "(comics)" is not sufficiently general. Curly Turkey (gobble) 05:00, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: @J Greb, There are no names left, Tenebrae, and NukeofEarl: As participants in the preceding discussion on a similar topic, I invite you to share your thoughts here. TriiipleThreat (talk) 12:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
• Support - Unfortunately, WP: Manual of Style/Comics doesn't provide any guidelines for how to disambiguate fictional subjects; the guideline TriiipleThreat cites is for comic book companies, not fictional entities. And I've always been bothered by the fact that comic book characters are disambiguated with "(comics)" when every other type of fictional character on Misplaced Pages is disambiguated with "(character)". Hydra is not an individual character, of course, but given how characters are disambiguated, you'd expect it be disambiguated "(fictional organization)". That said, "Hydra (Marvel Comics)" is WP: Preemptive disambiguation, and until a consensus is formed on how to disambiguate articles on fictional comic book entities in general, the only sensible place to move it is "Hydra (comics)", in accordance with the current common practice.--NukeofEarl (talk) 17:02, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
  • You are correct, that guideline is for companies, that actual guideline is at WP:NCC which states: "Following extensive discussion of naming conventions for comic book characters at Talk:List of Marvel Comics characters and Misplaced Pages Talk:WikiProject Comics, the agreed general disambiguation phrase used for articles related to comics, including creators, publications, and content, is "(comics)"."--TriiipleThreat (talk) 18:16, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

1. http://www.cxpulp.com/showthread.php?7238-Things-people-keep-getting-wrong-%28Round-2%29-redux&p=68435&viewfull=1#post68435

• Start-Class Comics articles
• Mid-importance Comics articles
• Start-Class Comics articles of Mid-importance
• Start-Class Marvel Comics articles
• Marvel Comics work group articles
• WikiProject Comics articles
• Requested moves