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Please read this Hi, and welcome. Take a deep breath and relax your eyebrows. If you are about ready to explode it is suggested that you stop for a minute and relax, because that indeed may happen after sifting through these heated debates. This is a controversial topic, and has always been.

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Archives

Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm| 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 (709 kb) Archive 2 (698 kb) Archive 3 (648 kb) Archive 4 (103 kb) Archive 5 (113 kb) Archive 6 (327 kb) Archive 7 (225 kb) Archive 8 (215 kb) Archive 9 (139 kb) Archive 10 (254 kb) Archive 11 (385 kb) Fadix Analysis (575 kb) A Letter from The International Association of Genocide Scholars

Edit war

so my armenian friends what you are doing is unethical. if you want a change bring it here if not it means edit war.neurobio 12:39, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I was not following this discussion, just few points I would like to make. First, don't use qualifiers like Armenian friends here as if there are 'type' of editors. Second, Davison has no place here at all, he has a review of Hovannesian major work, he has written a work covering all three massacres, in his contribution regarding the Armenians in Lewis book published in 1983(in which Lewis estimates the losses of Armenians between a million and a million and a half), he doesn't cover the issue. Isral Charny writes about thos who signed it in his study:

several respondents indicated that

(a) they had no doubt about the essential truth of the Armenian genocide;

(b) they are fully aware of the Turkish government's intention to falsify the record through censorship, suppression and revision of the facts;

(c) and as to the advertisement itself, that they had not been aware that the Turks would use their call to open the archives to "prove" that there was no Armenian genocide, nor did they know that there would be repeated use of their statement beyond a single advertisement.

In short, we know that several of them do not question it, we know that in printed material Davison support the thesis most supported by the Accademia. Like I said, I am tired of revert wars, but definitly Davison doesn't go there, and if you are not a POV pusher you will stop with that. Fad (ix) 14:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

oh good to see you back with your fully speculative "Professor of Psychology & Family Therapy israel Charney" stuff. I thought we already passed that history profs were fooled by Turkish govement thing. again fadix and his no reference Fact sheets! neurobio 14:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Look dude, he could be a garbage man, those are the results of the written answers he recieved from several who signed it. We have Davison own writtings and we have here evidences that the signature was allegedly a request to open the archives. It could have been enought to refer to Davison's publications, we now have a confirmation that he might be one of those. This is enought to remove him from the list. Lists should be based on what one wrote rather than some publicity published in the press, from many who are said to have signed it claimed not questioning the Armenian genocide. Fad (ix) 14:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

i dont care about Davidson. I just say we are not supposed to belive anything that you write. You came up with that some time ago but never shoved a clue. just show us a page or some thing that we can see for our selves! I dont belive it because if had it been true it would give Armenians a great opportunutiy to ridicule and discredit Turkis claims. And why for gods sake none of these profs came out and said "ok guys we signed it but it was different at that time". this was not a regular puplic letter. And Profs were carelessly signing it risking their credibility? Now we are supposed to belive you or Charney. neurobio 15:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Well sorry, the only who between the two of us who has lied in the past is you. The evidences is here. http://www.jstor.org/search/ search for The Armenian Crisis, 1912-1914. You've claimed a PhD, neuroscience professional have access to Jstor through their institution (faculty, hospital etc.). You will find it in print, and it covers the three massacres. Davison doesn't support any arguments of the Turkish government. Have fun reading it. Fad (ix) 15:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

now again the samething. I want to see something where Charney shows us these letters he got from these scolars and in return you talk about Davidson. cool. FYI I will read it.85.178.20.73 15:34, 16 June 2006 neurobio 15:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)(UTC)

Well sorry, this is not how it works, we have a published material from Davison, and regardless as far as I remember he reedited it in his Essays in Ottoman and Turkish history, 1774-1923 which was published in 1990, 5 years after 1985. This coupled with the doubt we have about whatever or not he does recognize it(when we must trust rather his works to begin with), any uses of his name beyond the reference to the advertisement is simply speculative and might hurt the scholar, in that that, if the information is wrong it makes it as if he is supporting something which he does not. You claim he does, it is up to you to show us this. Fad (ix) 15:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Ahh trying to change the subject like a denialist. as I said before I dont care about Davidson and I dont care so much if his name is here or not it is only a minor issue in this f*** up article. What I am saying is "you are coming up with huge claims like "charney demonstrated that many of these scolars were tricked into something that they did not mean to" and you cant show a reliable source". this is the second time you are saying this still nothing! I guess either you or charney making things up dude. And I really think that he is a garbage man indeed he has a very bad hair style.neurobio 22:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll ignore you, wash your mouth. Fad (ix) 23:59, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

arent you supposed to be on sick leave? lutherian 05:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." Leonard McCoy - stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella lV --THOTH 00:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Trying to be smart and funny at the same time are we? lutherian 05:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

ha ha :). I would rather be a Borg. So I say "resistance is futile! you are just making things up." now energize us your document scotty.neurobio 01:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I just uploaded this image of Armenian women who were crucified during the Genocide. I really think we should add this photo to the article. I really think this picture disproves any notion that this was an ordinary "relocation" march. Also, can anyone here (namely the Turks) give a rational reason as to why this picture shouldn't be used besides the cliche platitudes of forgeries, biases, and embellishments? Thanks. --MarshallBagramyan 23:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I am surprised to see you arguing again about what you by the way always refer to as the genocide, or as you like to put it "the so-called genocide". I showed you the numbers including the ones by McCarthy, and the proportions as well, I did not see ANY comment of yours regarding those numbers. My friend coming here and posting general "philosophical" stuff is not enough, you have to be scientific, be able to work with the material and simple numbers. So far I see you failing to do that. You repeat that there is enough proof out there somewhere that what happened does not constitute an act of genocide. I called and encouraged you to a discussion based on facts and numbers from different sources.

You know what is the difference btw your approach and that of the author of this article? It is the difference btw the lawer working with whatever material available (role of the author of the article) and someone that likes criticizing sitting in the kitchen (the role of yours). If you want to be taken serious and discuss the issue I am afraid you have to make the effort to think and dig into the literature, otherwise your comments do look rediculous.

Vahan Senekerimyan 23:56, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

It is not for us to be scientific here, thats the job of scholars as Fadix rightly pointed out somewhere. If you were a bit more attentive you would also notice here and in the archives that many valid arguments that reject the genocide thesis were submitted to the talk page and, sadly, the all too frequent response from the genocide camp was to accuse the scholars of being on the government payroll, of being nationalists or questioning their integrity etc. In other words the effort of discussing this issue has been nothing but a tremendous waste of time so please stop wasting everybody's time because we have better things to do. 83.78.49.129 19:07, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Funny - while I have seen certain folks claiming that there was no Armenian Genocide - I have yet to see any actual valid arguments that I would consider even remotely impuning such. Instead what we get is rather like the "argument clinic" from Monty Python...with the on-spot critique that contradiction alone does not make for a valid argument. Arguments are based upon evidence and supositions which are then proven by facts and data. All the counter genocide folks seem to be able to do is ad hominem attacks and saying "no it isn't" because some Turkish government pamplet says Turks are not capable of evil by definition and such...well thats not really an argument just then is it...--THOTH 23:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

(Personal attack removed) You may never agree with the rejection of the thesis but lets face it, the controversy has been raging on for 90 years (and dont give me the rubbish argument that most of those years dont count as Armenia was under Soviet control) And why has this issue not been settled? because the fact of the matter is that there are holes in the thesis the size of Alaska. Yeah I know its a bummer, but thats life ma boy! 85.1.89.67 05:45, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never used this argument - however there is no doubt that lack of an Armenian state and an international voice for Armenians made it nearly impossible for Armenians to seek and recieve justice in the years imediatly following the Genocide and even up to the recent past. However the issue of the continued success of Turkish denial has more to do with the position of the Republic of Turkey and it geo-political and economic importance - initially due to its resources, commerical oppurtunities (and the competition for trade concessions) and debt situation (which the allies - particualrly France wished to recover. Turkey and the remains of the Ottoman Empire were the richest prize in modern history - an oppurtunity for the Western nations unlike any that had existed since the discovery of the Americas. Then after World War II of course Turkey's position as a bulwark against the Soviet Union and its close proximity as a base of operations against it furthered the perception of the west that it must do everything possible to not upset Turkey and to keep it within the western sphere (and Ataturk and the following governments have used this fact to their great advantage. Now of course there is the issue of the Islamic threat and the idea that Turkey is nominally the only Islamic democracy and certainly is considered as a bulwark against radical Islam that cannot be allowed to fall/falter or sway from its Western leanings. SO all these factors have tempered any words or actions to upset Turkey and Turkey has made it most clear that (charges concerning) the Armenian Genocide is taboo subject #1 and has consistently applied threats and pressure to blackmail Western states and insitutions from recognition and any effort to force Turkey to come to terms with this issue. That is why it is "unresolved" not because there is any issue with the known facts that we have from all cooberated eyewitness testimony of the period and from serious unbiased scholarly analysis since. As to why (beyond the obvious of not wanting to admit and be known in history as a genocidal nation akin to Hitler's Germany) Turkey is in such fierce denial. I will let you ponder the quite insightful words of Turkish scholar Taner Akcam - (my preface)

Dr. Taner Akcam – an ethnically Turkish sociologist who has researched and written several books concerning the reasons for and the role of the Armenian Genocide and its denial within the Ottoman/Turkish socio-political landscape makes a great many salient observations concerning how the situation in the Ottoman Empire came to genocide for the Armenians and why the current Republic of Turkey has such difficulty coming to terms with it. His insights should be considered by Turks, Armenians and others alike as they contain the possibility of breeching the gap in competing nationalistic rhetoric among peoples who cannot seem to do so. The following are some very relevant quotes concerning this issue of national forgetfulness and failure to come to terms with one’s past from his introduction to his book From Empire to Republic – Turkish Nationalism and the Armenian Genocide – He begins by explaining that Turkey underwent a transition from a multi-nationalistic empire to becoming a nation-state based on nationalistic lines and that this process of nation building always entails a degree of distortion and forgetfulness of the past (in this case that which is forgotten is the process of “othering” other ethnicities of the empire – and the violent criminal actions that this ultimately led to – and the replacement with a national myth based on the idea of the victimhood of the Turkish people vis-a-vis outside Imperialistic powers where the minorities are only seen as pawns of these outside powers who are used and manipulated to bring about the empires destruction and ultimate dismemberment. Akcam also makes a strong case for the continuity of the Ottoman elites as the rulers of the new Republic and this as a major stumbling block for past admissions…So without further ado –

“The Turkish Republic was born out of the destruction of the Christian populations in Anatolia and the establishment of a homogeneous Muslim state. The Armenian Genocide was the epitome of the policy of destruction and was declared a taboo subject immediately after the creation of the Republic. One important reason for this declaration was the connection between the Genocide and the foundation of the Republic. The Republic was founded to a significant degree by the members of the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), which was responsible for the implementation of the wholesale deportation and massacres against the Armenian population of Anatolia. The authority of the Ottoman civil-military elite continued, uninterrupted, into the period marking the establishment of the Turkish Republic. This elite perceived the Christian population of Anatolia, and especially the Armenians, as internal foes working for foreign imperialist interests and the destruction of the Ottoman Empire.”

“(Turkish) Individuals who call for an open debate are stigmatized as treasonous and enemies of the nation. Scholarly activity has been locked into a cycle of verification or denial of what happened in history, as opposed to analyzing the socio-political and historical factors that allowed that history to unfold. We are lagging in the task of addressing the real question of why the Armenian Genocide occurred. There existed in 1915 a confluence of general factors – social, political, historical, and cultural – that combined in such a way as to make implementation of genocide possible. These general factors must be viewed in conjunction with the specific factors, both political and psychological, that made the implementation of genocide seem desirable to those in power in 1915. Turkish nationalism in the years of the Empire’s decline played an important role.”

“If Turkey is to develop from an authoritarian, bureaucratic state into a standard Western democracy, it must come to terms with history and take a critical approach towards the problems surrounding national identity. For this to occur…the dominance of the denial syndrome must be overcome, and direct interaction between Turkish and Armenian societies must take place. The basic problem was and remains today the continuation of the ruling elite from the Ottoman Empire to the Turkish Republic. This continuity is one of the biggest impediments to democratization.” --THOTH 14:51, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Please I beg you, spare us your long winded replies because I assure you that NO ONE reads them especially when they come from persons with dubious backgrounds such as Aksam's who is known to have been associated with terrorist organizations in the past! It is even claimed that Aksam's Phd is a fake I'm not going to bother proving any of this to you, you can very well google it yourself! lutherian 17:31, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I knew that this would be your (entirely worthless) response...perhaps I should have just added it myself...ie "Certain Turks claim that the (meticulously researched and highly respected...OK I added this part...) insights and positions of (Dr.)Akcam - by virtue of past arrest and imprisonment by Turkish authorities for association with an outlawed group pressing for expanded human rights in Turkey - automatically can be discounted and ignored...likewise we demand that Nelsom Mandella be recalled as President of South Africa due to his criminal past as a rabble rouser against a legitimate world government and we request that the State of Israel denounce Menacham Begin and that he be exhumed and stomped upon." (...of course Kemnal Ataturk was condemned to death by the Ottoman Government for actions against the Ottoman State...are his views likeiwse incapable of being considered? Should we judt consider that the government he founded is illegitimate due to his criminal past?) Again - no response or demonstrated ability to deal with actual relevent facts and issues....just ad homenim attack...this is called avoidance and denial. I again suggest that you are providing nothing whatsoever of value here and that your unsubstantiated comments confirm that your only purpose is to vandalise the article and the process of creating and discussing it and legitimate issues surounding it.--THOTH 18:22, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Please now the only vandal here is you with your constant bombardments of useless material that nobody bothers to read. And please dont compare a worthless thug like Aksam with great leaders of this world. In your mind anyone critical of Turkey or Turks must be good, for that reason alone you dont deserve to be replied to! lutherian 18:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." Leonard McCoy - stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella lV --THOTH 14:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Dispositions?

Thirdly, it is argued that the thesis of simple relocation is flawed, due to the government's lack of dispositions which a “resettlement” would require. This lack of dispositions has been emphasized as evidence of the government's intent to eliminate the displaced Armenians.

The word "dispositions" is a curious one here - perhaps it means something like "provision" or similar? Evercat 17:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Sadly the key issue is never addressed

Whether the number is 250,000 or 1.5 million. Whether they were relocated and died or killed outright.

The fact of the matter is, those who perpetrated these acts are not alive today but those whose are descended from those who survived know the truth of how it affected the lives of their parents, grandparents and greatgrandparents.

What puzzles me is that Turkish government cannot simply state "Many died, and although we are not personally responsible, we promise that history will not repeat itself"

Its more complicated than that: they can't come to grips that their grandparents were responsible for such brutality; being murderers, rapists, torturers, pedophiles, etc. Its unfathomable for people living in Turkey where nationalism is highly encouraged and even the mildest stain upon Turkish heritage and "Turkishness" in general is taken with great umbrage. That's somewhat apparent seeing as how desperate some Turks become when they come here or when they edit the entire article by simply saying "its a lie" or "the Armenian Genocide fairy tail myth".--MarshallBagramyan 20:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Marshal obviously is not avare that the times are changing. Still What he says has some truth just like any nation Turks have hard time confessing their crimes. BUT what is more important is!

if you put Mnt. Ararat in your banner and still claim right in Turkeys land because there are historic churches there,

or if you invade azerbaican masssacre a whole lot of population and claiming that these lands are actually yours,

or if you present Asala terorist as heroes and give them protection and money in your country,

or if your country or people have links with terorist organisation PKK or terrorists are trained in your country and some of your people participate actively in PKK attacks,

or if you build monuments for assasins in US and Armenia,

or if you openly discuss that after recognition comes the compensation money and more importantly land demand,

or if you keep on denying that your ancestors at least had their own crimes you can not expect such a resolution. Other than that Turks are ready to say sorry. forgot to sign againneurobio 23:30, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be a senseless attempt for me to even address the gross inaccuracies in your statements. Just to begin with, 1) ASALA members were never harbored in Armenia since it was a Soviet Socialist Republic back then and were hence barred from immigrating there. 2)Go check up the ASALA article on Misplaced Pages and see that the claims to the PPK are accusations that have no citations. 3)Bringing up Azerbaijan shows how partial they are when it comes to atrocities being reported. Azeris are considered the bretheren of the Turks, since they are of Turkic origin, but how often do Turks speak about Azeri atrocities, how often do you hear them condeming the Sumgait massacre (Feburary 1988)? the Kirovobad massacre (1988)? the Baku massacre (Janurary 1990)? the Maragha massacre (April 1992)? Its simply turning a blind eye.

"or if you build monuments for assasins in US and Armenia,"

This is the one I get a real kick out of. Neuro here is alluding to Soghomon Tehlerian, the man who assassinated Talaat Pasha, the main organizer of the Genocide who was condemned to death in absentia by the Ottoman Military Tribunals. In Turkey, they probably omit that piece of info, and portray Talaat as a poor unsuspecting government official who attempted to live a peaceful life in Germany but was gunned down by an Armenian terrorist. See how distorted the truth becomes? They think that things such as ASALA and Tehlerian grew out organically, as if by chance and who arbitrarily targeted Turks because Armenians hate Turks. "Truth" in Turkey is as much as foreign a term as "justice". Despite their protestations, none of them are able to come up with some sort of solid proof to counter the claims made by witnesses, much less even address as the picture above as to why were Armenian women crucified in such an ordinary deportation?

Simple questions and witness statements are things they have difficulty addressing. I doubt I'm going to even hear a positive rebuke, much less am interested to hear what excuses they're going to offer.--MarshallBagramyan 00:23, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

even subconciously you are attempting to whitewash a terrorist organization, its simply amazing. The most notorious example of this is in the section on the Armenian legion which is chock full of pathetic attempts to whitewash what is arguably one of the most evil organization ever to exist on earth. No mention of those murderous thugs in French uniform slaughtering women and children by the masses (oh yeah, it never happened), suggesting that they saved Jews (Orthodox christians saving Jews? thats a funny one), and considering their leader a certain General DRO a national hero are in my view the most blatent examples of whitewashing. It is also said that former ASALA members, your Armenian bretheren have today been recycled and are members of the Armenian government. Should one be surprised? lutherian 05:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I fully condemn ASALA and its actions....satisfied? Now as to "whitewashing one of the most evil organizations ever to exist on Earth" well...lets discuss the CUP...and as for your other claims and such...proof my dear boy proof...though anything not directly connected with the Armenian Genocide is not a point of discussion here (that includes any events after it occured unless they are relevant to the issues of recognition and/or denial. However I just have to ask you for proof when you bandy about charges that memebers of ASALA are in the Armenian Government...lol...I think this desperate charge on your part (as well as your focus on ASALA) is fully indicative of the level you operate and the fact that you have no real ability to input constructively or factually concerning this article. --THOTH 15:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ when you say that anything not directly connected with the so called genocide is not relevant. Everything is relevant here because they are all the result of this tragically misguided view that what happened during that period constitutes a genocide! As for the CUP, I have no doubt in mind that there were racist elements aiming for an ethnically cleansed anatolia but to go from there to accusing the Ottoman government of genocide is simply far fetched. I would appreciate a concise response from you unless you wish me to just skip it. lutherian 17:40, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"tragically misguided view" - sorry - does not compute. You obvioulsy have no business whatsoever contributing to this article as this is a non-fiction piece.--THOTH 18:09, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Marshall please just google a bit

1. Asala and PKK was/is in close contact. , . maybe you will be kind to add these to the Asala article.

2. Armenia loves PKK, PKK loves armenia ,

3. Asala terrorists are resting in your “cemetery of heroes“. They are regarded as heroes and people mourn for this sad loss. Please read this one carefully. . who are these heroes? They opened fire on passengers in the airport killed 8 injured 82 in 1982. And this is should be a shame for any normal person!

4. Solomon is an assassin (fact) he killed Talat while he was buying his morning newspaper(fact). Shot him from the back (fact). Talat may be a criminal. He may be a monster. Still Solomon is an assassin. And I do not know of any other nation which has built a monument for an assassin.

Read these and ask your self do you deserve that? Do Armenian youth has to accept killers as heroes? You are giving a debate about how Turks are nationalist. They have such a crazy Turkishness myth. Are you any different? No let me tell you something you are just like twins with Turks even the look in your eyes. (is this an insult for you?). I know this very well I had two Armenian students under my supervision and met many others.

Please read the life of your national heroe. I think you already know more than this But this time ask your self what he was doing in Bulgaria with his proud armenian legion ((millet-i sadika oh my))? How come there were 150.000 armenians in Russian army fighting against ottomans. Who was he fighting before 1914 even in 1901. How many muslims were killed in Van and before by him? Why he thought he can create a home for Armenians in 6 vilayets where they only constitute less that %30 of the population. and how was he supposed to achive that given the huge Turk kurd muslim population?

Then maybe I can comment on your picture where I see horsemen who are obviously not dressed in Turkish army clothes (just like the first picture in this article). One also has to ask when it was shot and are they really Armenian?neurobio 01:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

And work your brain while you're at it neuro. ASALA is a defunct organization that died out in the mid 1980s because Armenians themselves were upset with their actions. Not to mention that many of its members including its leaders were also wholly opportunistic and driven by monetary gains rather than anything beneficial to Armenians which was fed for international consumption. Its leader was killed by Armenians and its dealings with the the PKK were the same hollow deals it later made with Meinhoff and the Phalangists. ASALA died 20 years ago, get with the program already.

2)And interview between the two? Yes, I see the hearts in their eyes and intimate affection for each other. Kurds have come to grips with their own past and their acts during the Genocide, if anything, Turks should take an example.

3)Many people consider the acts of ASALA, though tragic in terms of death and injuries, beneficial that the Armenian Genocide was brought back into international view. By the 1970s, the Turkish government had erased all mention of it and practically trivialized it to a nonevent. A matter of perspective, not fact. How many of your countrymen idolize Mehmet Ali Ağca or the Grey Wolves? Should I characterize all Turks as terrorists because some of them idolize and commit terrorist acts? What inane logic and what red herring.

4)I never denied that he was an assassin. But again, I question your logic. Chances are if Claus von Stauffenberg and his friends' attempts came into fruition, you would also criticize people who built statues you for them.

5)Andranik and his men left the Ottoman Empire long before the first World War. They despised how your Sultan ruled them and how unfairly Armenians were treated, on how they were arbitrarily raped, pillaged and massacred by Turkish forces with impunity. Its only natural that people want to defend themselves and disconnect away from such heinous and brutal leaders. What do you find offensive about that?

150.000 armenians in Russian army

??!

The Russian Army made several gains into the Ottoman Empire in the late 1870s. They obviously incorporated areas where Armenians lived including Georgia and Armenia. And like all the subjects of the Tsar, them being Armenian, Azeri, Russian, or Georgian, were all liable for military service during wars. What's so confusing about that.

The picture isn't a soldier on a horse (perhaps not even a horse, looks like a large mule) but a column of refugees. The picture comes from the German archives if you bothered to read the caption. Read its source: Der Bundesbeauftragte für die Unterlagen des Staatssicherheitsdienstes der ehemaligen Deutschen Demokratischen Republik. Its an authenticated and documented photograph from that time period.--MarshallBagramyan 03:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenians themselves were upset with their actions and thats why ASALA stopped??? LOL thats probably the funniest excuse I heard recently. ASALA evaporated because the Turkish prime minister of the time gave orders to wipe them out. One of their founders was hunted down and assassinated in front of his home in Cyprus, the other one died of cancer and the rest of the band of terrorists were tracked down by Turkish special forces and killed during a meeting in Lebanon. I am sorry to pop your bubble on this one or maybe you think this is yet another figment of the Turkish imagination? Maybe we should start questioning the existence of Turkey too whilst ure at it?

I see that you are even trying to excuse the fact that Armenians fought on the side of the Russians by suggesting that they were forced to do so? Boy there is no limit in your attempts to whitewash every single Armenian soul. In your mind there is no bad Armenian, its just impossible but its also what makes this whole argument a silly joke!

As for your picture, its funny that a "passion of the christ" snapshot suddenly pops up after 90 years! Where has it been all this time? lutherian 06:22, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, internal pressure broke it up. Read the book "My Brother's Road" which documents the absuses in ASALA and documents first hand evidence by members themselves who attested to the fact that pressures inside and member assassinations, conflict with the Dashnak party were the main contributors to its downfall. Hagop Hagopian was assassinated by four of his Armenian rivals who peppered him with several shotgun rounds on a street in Cyprus. Their actions of killing civilians and even killing and torturing its members. The "rest" simply melted away. Sorry but Turkey's precious MIT had no role in taking down ASALA. Its your little bubble that was popped away, sorry to rob you of guys a victory but the defeat of ASALA was just a propaganda ploy by Turkey's government. Turkey's self-congratulatory victory was just fed for internal consumption, and from all looks, you guys bought it.

Wow, popped up huh? Check back in the German national archives for hundreds of other unpublished photos and you'll see they've been there since 1915. The picture itself was published in a book in 1993.--MarshallBagramyan 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL, whilst your at it, maybe it was the Armenians who also brought Ocalan to justice? Oh and im sure going to take a book written by an Armenian at face value! lutherian 04:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." Leonard McCoy - stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella lV --THOTH 14:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Opinion

I recently came across to this.

Sarkisyan argues that the Jews encouraged the Ottoman Turks to commit genocide against Armenians. Sarkisyan continues:

“Talat Pasha was a Jewish. They made Turks and Armenians hostile. Turks would not have committed genocide. But all of the Jon Turks (Young Turks) were Jewish”.

what do you think abut this? not as a part of our debete but I really want to learn. It is common knowledge that almost all young turks are jew what do you think about it? is it a general understanding or this man is just a radical soul.neurobio 23:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Check here Donmeh.--MarshallBagramyan 00:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Talat Pasha was not Jewsish and neither were any substansial portion of te Young Turks. While most of the Toung Turk ideologues and such came from areas outside of Anatolia proper and many would only nominaly be considered Turkish in the strict sense - the important thing is that they were Turkish Nationalists - not what particular ethnicity they were. Talat went to a Jewish school growing up - not surprising since Salonkia where he grew up was known for a high population of Jews and Domneh (former Jews who had converted to Islam). The Solonkia connection is the source of these charges of Talat and other Young Turks (and even Ataturk) being Jewish - however aside from a few members - such as Tenkin Alp (Moishe Cohen) - very few Young Turks were actually Jewish and this supposed Jewish connection is entirely a non-issue. Djemal attempted to "deport" Jews from Palestein and massacre them (until he was stopped by the Germans of all people) - and some Jews were killed. Likewise the Young Turks discussed/debated taking the exact same measures against the Jews as they ultimatly did against the Armenians at their party congreesses prior to the war...--THOTH 20:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Can I ask where you got the "Jewish" deportation excerpt from Thoth?--MarshallBagramyan 03:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not at my home at the moment and won't be for a time - however I have numerous sources that report these discussions among the CUP leadership as well as documentation of Djemal's efforts to massacre and deport Jews and the German consternation over this (bad publicity & giving more imetus for Jews to rally to the British). I can pass on these references when I get back. --THOTH 13:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL for some reason I picture you in eastern anatolia with a spade frantically looking for proof to support your thesis! lutherian 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

maybe you should have read my previous comments before you writing this. come to my talk page if you want to talk.neurobio 00:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

LOL, who is this guy? lutherian 05:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not a fiction article - please refrain from posting ignorant and entirely ficticious claims that have absolutly nothing to do with reality.--THOTH 20:55, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but your comments and personal attacks against me have no credibility nor basis. You have no clue regarding my background and my understandings of the various "pains" and situations of peoples of thsi period. I would be more then willing to discuss/intorduce such factually and in the proper context - however I have yet to see the Armenian Genocide denialist camp do so. I suspect that most - like yourself - who introduce such really don't much understand the true history but are only parroting the latest Turkish propoganda pieces - and this seems very obvious to me. McCarthy's quote is typical of this. Certainly if we are discussing the totality of Armenian history some mention of Armenian revenge attacks against Turks after the genocide and/or the activities of Russian Armenians in WWI would be appropriate. In any discussion of the Armenian Genocide these things deserve perhaps a slight mention - however they are not fundemental to the issues of the Armenian Genocide itself. The "provacation thesis" and claims by Turks and Turk apologists of civil war and such are entirely false and discredited assumptions. I don't at all contend that no Turks suffered during - prior to and after this period - but for this article we are attempting to provide accepted facts that prtain to the Armenian Genocide and the only Turkish suffering of this period of note came from actions of the CUP and events tied directly to the war situation. The Armenian Genocide refers to the actions initiated by the CUP/Ottoman Government to ethnically cleans Anatolia of its own Armenian citizens. This extremely brutal and comprehensively destructive series of acts has few collallarys in modern history and certainly no counter done by Armenians (or even any others) to any group of Turks. You obviously fail to understand the magnitude and devastation of these actions and the decimation and utter deppravities commited against the Armenians. I find your attempts to equate any Turkish suffering of this period to the Armenian devastation to be entirely disengenuous and faulty. And furthermore your and other's attempts here to claim that Armenians did something equivilant or even that they commited acts to justify what was done are clearly no more then a repeat of vicious CUP/Turkish propoganda that have no bearing on reality and that is highly insulting and hurtful to Armenians and to all victims of genocide. This article is about the Armenian Genocide. It is an encyclopedic article - thus it shouold be entirely factual and supportable and relevent to the issue. I find that your comments meet none of these criteria.--THOTH 13:59, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Whitewasssssshhhhhhhhhh lutherian 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

yes we should not make the jews angry. you are pro my dear. there is no stop in your history distortions.neurobio 01:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

"What the Klingon has said is unimportant, and we do not hear his words." Leonard McCoy - stardate 3497.2. Planet Capella lV --THOTH 14:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Should one assume that you equate the klingon race to the Turks? Interesting how your subconcious works! lutherian 14:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

whenever you come up with a nonsense claim and have no document to show I suddenly become Klingon. See upper sections where Pinky and the Brain came up with a huge claim yet change the subject when asked for a document. way to go.neurobio 20:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes of course. Whenever I come up with nonsense - you are a Klingon...lol...no wonder you (nobrainer) & lex luthorian seem to show no ability to understand the written word...you obviously can't and don't - and if I were you I wouldn't in good conscience make accusations that others are posting nonsense claims...particularly with the degree of support (none) behind your various contentions...--THOTH 22:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

good rhetorics and nice try (nobrainer and Lex luthorian) yet not good enough. well you are a pro! Talat is a jew! because Salonica was also habited by many alevi-bekhtasi Turks (yörük) who were widely moved from Aydin there were plenty of regular scools just like the one Mustafa kemal attended. let me tell what nonsense is! claiming that a muslim Turk child can go to a jew school is nonsense. (first he will not be sent by the family since there are regular schools second minorities dont accept others. and please remember that all these schools give a strong religious back ground. At that time almost every thing that was tought in schools were religion oriented.)

so will it whitewash Turks? absolutely no but this is a good marker to understand if the person you are dealing with is a diaspora propagandist or not. A good willed armenian who fullhardedly belives in genocide says "ok Talat and many other young turks were jew so what?" (like marshall bayramyan has said) but a diaspora propagandist says no they were not jews. Why because they know they need the help of the jewish comunity for their cause. They dont want to make jews much more upset for now. And they also want to tickle strong Jew lobies with false claims like young Turks (almost half being jew) would have deported jews if it wasnt for Germanys intervention (the germans who will comit the real holocaus some 30 years later). Our diaspora propagandists who are "revealing the past" just skip this part just in a blink of an eye. When it is all over they will start writing books on "jewish responsibility in armenian genocide".

Yes why would I want to antagonize anyone with "false claims that are untrue"? This makes no sense at all to me. If I make a claim it is because I have support for it. The mention of Talat going to a Jewish school was from Fromkin - A Peace to End all Peace ...who also spoke to the widespread anti-semitism of the British Middle East desk where many of these rumours and (false) charges of Jewish complicity in the Young Turk movement originate from. Fromkin - who could hardly be considered as a biased or questionable source - dispells these arguments by presenting the facts and circumstance. --THOTH 13:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

So I (nobrainer) ask you pinky (or brain if it makes you feel better) to accept me as a klingon and answer none of my post. And I will accept you as a diaspora propagandist with an unmached talent to ignore or falsify the simplest facts of history and dont take you seriosuly from now on. deal?neurobio 23:21, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

That Lex Lutherian name calling really cracked me up Thor, I know you consider yourself a genius and far more knowledeable on this subject than anyone else except maybe Fadix who has frequently given you a good thrashing for your blind propaganda. I suggest you go take a break like he did for the sake of improving the quality of this topic lutherian 04:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

What's with the insults? Can't we have a civilized discussion here? This isn't a freakin' dissfest you know. —Khoikhoi 04:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have approached the issues here seriosly and by providing support to the positions I present. However, the response has either been name calling of me personally (this "thor" thing is not new nor is commentary that I am hateful toward Turks and a propogandist). If not this they make ad hominem attacks against legitimate and respected researchers or they admonish me for making long posts that they will not read. Either way they are making no substantive comments or contribution here. This issue of supposed Jewish involvement in the armenian Genocide is just another of their red herrings. No matter what I answer with factually they will find some typical denialist angle to attack on. Of course I will tire of responsing to wild unsupported claims and meaningless (to the issue) statements...thus the Klingon comment...I mean should I really be wasting my time on their irrelavent and entirely unsupported garbage? Its quite easy for the true propogandists who provide nothing of substance to accuse others that they are doing the same. However, I think I have proven to possess historical and scholarly foundation for the views I put forth and I am able to provide legitimate support for such as well - I have done so frequently...unlike this "other side" which produces only innuendo and claims based on opinion and not fact. --THOTH 13:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

You know, I have been reading these posts for some time and watching everyone go back and forth with charges, accusations and insulting each other. This is becoming absurd. This is my first post, so please excuse me if I am not followig proper protocol. Regarding the genocide, I have personally met over two dozen survivors of the Armenian genocide and have been to Armenia six times so far. The painful memories and stories of the survivors say it all to me. Also, I have worked extensively in the Armenian community and have heard contless accounts of families torn apart from the genocide. By the way, I am not Armenian, but I am entirely convinced of the reality of the genocide. Read all of the history books and debates as you want, but after hearing the testimonies of the survivors and their relatives first hand, I do not need any more convincing. If you ever have the opportunity to travel to Armenia, you will see that the Armenian people are STILL suffering from the effects of the genocide. If you choose to not beleive it, that is your right, but please show some respect for those who have suffered and continue to suffer from this terrible tragedy.

typical one sided view of the story, a massacre can quickly and easily turn into a propaganda genocide especially when in the hand of those that have bad intentions. According to the above, you have been several times to Armenia and are probably in love with Armenians, have you bothered looking at this from the Turkish side? I doubt it very much! lutherian 17:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

We appreciate your comments concerning your experiences with Armenians concerning the Genocide (and that it and its denial have a continuing effect) and the your correct view of the unassailability of Genocide claims and knowledge based on the historical record. It may prove helpful to the article if you list some of the sources of information you have come accross/relied on for your information. I share your disgust concerning the denial and the pityful and shameful campaign here on the part of some disengenuous proponents of denial to claim that the genocide did not occur. I have tried to counter these contentions with fact but have been met by steady opposition - no matter the poor quality of such - that it continues and that the article continues to portray the denial as legitimate is enough to debase the history and make this article a bit of a joke. As poor as the support for their positions has been - if not countered they assume the right to change the article as they see fit - even if their edits (like their commentary here) totally fail to meet all quality standards for a factual article of this nature. IMO the involvement and contributions of people such as yourself are vital to counter this denial. I would however encourage you to sign your posts. --THOTH 15:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

you start calling me Lex Lutherian and then you are surprised I call you Thor? A couple of pages back in the archives you go as far as insulting Jews by attempting to diminish the importance of the Holocaust. Wasnt it you who said that the so called Armenian genocide is arguably more tragic or more of a crime than the Jewish Holocaust? Frankly I find it shocking that you would think something like this but it reflects your frame of mind. As for the so called genocide, you grotesquely inflate your claims and continuously use highly questionable sources as support and then expect everyone else to agree? In addition to this, you opnely LIE when you say that the opposition is here just to attack your claims. Just to refresh your selective memory, how many times did deepblue, neurobio and others bring totally valid points disproving the so called genocide on this page and the likes of you and Fadix just smeared them with the most ridiculous arguments such as nationalism, and in the case of non Turks, that they were on the payroll of the Turkish government. It is impossible to have a discussion with you when the only thing you do is just bombard this page with tons of cut & paste material that nobody reads (even your pal Fadix criticized you for this) and when you do contribute with your own words, its just to insult others or just to conduct your smear campaign calling us vandals, trolls or what not. You truly deserve what you get, you have a serious attitude problem, if you want others to respect you then you should learn to do the same!lutherian 17:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have never said anything to diminish the Holocaust - this charge is completely a red herring. And yes I did say that the Armenian Genocide could be arguably considered more tragic then the Jewish Holocaust...and I stand by this statement - if one considers the degree of devastation (% killed alone based upon population and shortness of time taken to destroy the community), the complete loss of homeland and resultant absence of Armenians in Anatolia, the fact that Armenians continued to be killed and massacred even after the Genocide (by the Nationalist forces) and the fact that the Turks were basically able to see the Genocide of Armenians to completion - where the end of WWII cut short the german efforts to totally decimate the Jews of Europe - yes - I think an argument could be made that the Armenian tragedy was of greater severity. However I view ech communities suffering as essentially the same and do not think one can easily put a value on each - which was certainly equally devestating and horrible for those subjected to each. As for the rest of your diatribe - I'm tired of responding to klingons...--THOTH 19:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Again I am shocked by your confirmation here as I am sure many others are. I would also mention that you somewhat contradict yourself when you mention that one cannot put a value to suffering right after saying the Armenian tragedy was of greater severity. You also mention that the killing continued even after the so called genocide, are you referring to the Armenian attack on the Turkish forces which was swiftly repelled and crushed? Talk about hostilities! lutherian 06:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Facts to be underlined

• factual accuracy of this article
• solid non-NPOV of Armenians (I mean most of them especially USA-related)
• parliements convinced by diaspora to take legal action people in denial of a genocide —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.98.108.2 (talk •

• Unassessed Armenian articles
• Unknown-importance Armenian articles
• WikiProject Armenia articles
• Unassessed Turkey articles
• Unknown-importance Turkey articles
• All WikiProject Turkey pages
• Old requests for peer review