Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:22, 19 May 2014

• WT:MED

Welcome to the WikiProject Medicine talk page. If you have comments or believe something can be improved, feel free to post. Also feel free to introduce yourself if you plan on becoming an active editor!

We do not provide medical advice; please see a health professional.

• Unsure about something? Make sure to look at our style and source guidelines.
• Please don't shout, remain civil, be respectful to all, and assume good faith.
• Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
• Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~).
• Threads older than 7 days are automatically archived.
• Please see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Medicine/Newsletter/Mailing_list

• In all Medicine articles (not talks)
• In articles with Top-, High-importance
• In articles with Mid-importance
• In articles with Low-importance
• In pages with NA, ???=unknown importance
• In the 1000 most popular articles (source)

Not mainspace:

• In all non-articles
• In all templates
• In Medicine navigation templates

Super-spreader student problem

Super-spreader is a person who spreads a lot of disease. There is controversy at that article which has gotten more than the average amount of attention, but I thought I would share here.

A professor blogged that her student was trying to improve the article but the edits were reverted. The professor makes some serious accusations of hostility against WikiProject Medicine member Malke 2010 who reverted the student Dballouz, including exercising their seniority and personal gender bias. Based on what I see in the article's history for April 2014, it seems that Malke 2010 reviewed the students' edits piecewise and gave what by community standards is the usual sort of criticism of why those pieces were reverted. The student and Malke talked on the article's talk page, but the discussion did not go far.

I am not at this time going to comment on how the Misplaced Pages platform's inherent gender bias harmed this new user's experience other than to say that the claim should be taken seriously. A problem more concerning to me is that there was some failing which resulted in the student's contribution history showing that this student did not feel comfortable addressing their problems on Misplaced Pages. I regret that Misplaced Pages did not seem welcoming enough for this student or the professor to respond on-wiki. It would be my wish that when any user's content is reverted and they are given an explanation why it was reverted then in those circumstances they would realize that they can respond to the criticism on-wiki without escalating the issue to the Wikimedia Foundation's senior staff, and it seems by the posting on the Gender Gap mailing list that this happened. As this case exemplifies a problem affecting the education program and medical content, I am posting on those boards. I thought you all should know.

It would be my wish that everyone involved in this understand that the Misplaced Pages community supports them and that problems here are the failing of Misplaced Pages as a communication platform, and not because of failings of individuals who intend to improve Misplaced Pages and participate in the community. Malke especially is being harshly criticized and I do not want this person to have a bad experience. It is not immediately obvious to me that Malke did anything out of the ordinary or against Misplaced Pages community standards, and even if something is wrong, I do not like seeing a good contributor treated badly on-wiki and off by people who feel empowered to deliver punishment and shame. Even when something goes wrong Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a supportive place. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for their comments and interest in this, especially Blue Rasberry. Bringing the issue here was the best thing to do.

The Misplaced Pages community needs to be aware that I made several attempts to post on the instructor's blog explaining my rationale about spotting a vandal, the need for communication on the talk page, and that I am a female and had no bias against her student. She refused to allow the post, and did so in an extremely unpleasant manner. She also refused to allow posts from several of my work colleagues vouching for my professional credentials, as well as supporting comments from several Misplaced Pages editors. She constructed a narrative about females being bullied by males on Misplaced Pages and apparently no information that contradicted that narrative was welcome. Not to mention, she has failed to show how the user name, Dballouz, suggests a female. So assuming I was one of those 'bullying males' on Misplaced Pages, how would I know this was a female?

When I saw the student's edit, I checked her contribs. I thought the use of the sandbox was a good sign. But her false claims on the talk page that there is a controversy as to whether asymptomatic carriers are super-spreaders, and her failure to show sources for that claim, as well as her revert before leaving, made her appear to be a vandal. If she had persisted, I would have reported her and she would have likely been blocked because she wasn't demonstrating constructive behavior. Jamie, on the gendergap thread, noted that dropping a 'blob' edit, as she called it, into an article is disruptive. The instructor claimed on her blog that she has a registered account on Misplaced Pages and has edited here. She stated she was aware of the WikiEd program but decided not to use it. The instructor had all the information and the tools to make this a positive experience for her student, and a constructive edit to a Misplaced Pages article. She chose not to do that. Neither Misplaced Pages nor myself are responsible for that. What's that saying, "You can lead a horse to water. . ." Malke 2010 (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Malke 2010, I'm concerned about the "vandal" language here. She added some plausible but unsourced information. Okay, that happens a thousand or more times a day. Why does that make her a "vandal"? Is adding unsourced information automatically proof that the new editor is actively intending to hurt the encyclopedia? Is reverting the removal of material that you believe to be good (by someone you've never seen or heard of before, and who—for all you know—might know nothing at all about the subject) automatically a bad-faith action? Or is this situation perhaps better described in some other way (like WP:Edit warring or failing to meet a WP:CHALLENGE to the material)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I read with a lot of interest what the instructor's blog described. In a way, this is a very typical case study of what can go wrong in these situations, and I find it very interesting that the blog update talks about all the helpful feedback about how the instructor should have told the student to make the edits in pieces, instead of dropping the whole page out of a sandbox. True that! And I also wish the student could have been guided better into using the article talk page to understand what was going on. I wish that the instructor had found out about WP:ASSIGN before the assignment was made, because that could have made all the difference in the world. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I read the comments to the blog, and was happy with the good advice, and how it was received. We still have some work to do, as this type of situation is likely to occur again, so my current concern is - while it is easy to identify some things that went wrong, it isn't immediately obvious what to do to prevent a repeat.S Philbrick(Talk) 17:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

You are right about the need to find ways to prevent repeats. In a general sense, it seems to me that the right kinds of advice to instructors exist on-wiki, but it's difficult to ensure that they see the advice before, instead of after, the problem. I think a starting point, but obviously not the last word, is to try to make more editors aware of where to point instructor editors. According to the blog, the instructor tried quite hard to find the right information ahead of time, but no one really pointed her to the right place. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:55, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

People can always ask here. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 19:07, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I think I had quite a few edits under my belt before I even knew there was such a thing as a Wikiproject. I'm sure it was months before I had heard of the student assignment initiatives. My point is, I don't think it is reasonable to expect a new editor to even think about asking the question. Maybe we need to be more forceful about asking new editors to check in at the Teahouse, while making sure the regulars there know how to spot student assignments and get them on the right track.

I'm also intrigued by the notion that smaller initial edits might have led to a different outcome, and I'm musing about whether that can be encouraged in a post at the Village pump idea lab --S Philbrick(Talk) 19:29, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

"I'm also intrigued by the notion that smaller initial edits might have led to a different outcome." With smaller initial edits, mistakes—such as unencyclopedic or unreferenced content—by a new editor are likely to be spotted more quickly by experienced watchers. This allows the experienced editors to direct the new editor in the right direction, before the new editor has undertaken a lot of work.

Whether it would have changed the outcome in this particular case, I don't know. Axl ¤ 19:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Responding to both S Philbrick and Axl, I tend to be a bit of a broken-record in pointing out WP:ASSIGN, and it does include advice about some do's and don't's about moving content into mainspace from a sandbox. I like the idea of reaching out to the Teahouse about recognizing new editors who are students or instructors, and pointing them to the right places to get advice. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I've wondered about whether, instead of directing promising editors of medicine-related content to the Teahouse, if we could direct them here. But I'm not sure that people (the ones here now) would like this, or if we would be as good at supporting new editors as the "specialists" over at the Teahouse. We can be very critical of people who don't already know our standards. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea to send them here. They will likely come into contact with those from this group anyway. If we have a chance to explain our standards there may be less issues. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) After reading the blog and the article's talk page discussion, I think this was a case of rejecting synthesis, failing to mention WP:MEDRS, and doubling-down with WP:OWN. It was an unnecessary conflict. I think the idea of making "small edits" first is understandable but unrealistic. Students build in their sandboxes so they can do it without interference and they dump it all into the article the day it's due for it to be live. I've been asking students to post on the talk pages prior to publication, but I might consider the idea of small edits to start. How amenable is this WikiProject to notifications of WEF courses? Chris Troutman (talk) 23:43, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

How we respond to that will have an enormous amount to do with how well the people at the education project are doing their job. If teachers and their students are well-prepared by the project with a confirmed thorough understanding of the need to use secondary and tertiary sources, and a couple of other basics, I think most here would welcome the opportunity to at least glance at their work.

Actually, I wish that project would give us the chance to comment on all proposed new medical articles or proposed significant additions to existing articles - before the student starts work. Recognising an actual gap in our encyclopedic coverage of medical content is not always easy, and getting it wrong can cause distress and waste a lot of time and goodwill. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:12, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole I could tell you whatever you wanted to know about the functioning of the education program as I follow whatever the program is doing. Everyone in the education program knows that WikiProject Medicine wants to be aware of all medical classes. No other WikiProject gets in their business like WikiProject Medicine. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:22, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Blue Rasberry.

1. Do all teachers using Misplaced Pages as a teaching aid and all students carrying out class assignments on en.Misplaced Pages medical content get a thorough grounding in WP:MEDRS?
2. Do the students and teachers get supervision and guidance from an expert Misplaced Pages medical editor in choosing a topic?
3. Can you link me to a page that lists all the current classes affecting medical content and lists the articles each are/will be creating/adding to? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:44, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Anthonyhcole.

1. No. Sending people to WP:MEDRS probably is not a sufficient replacement for some specialized presentation for this population, although at least sending everyone there would be a good start and even that does not happen.
2. No. There are problems on both ends - there is no formal communication channel for notifying this project of classes from the education program and on this end, there is no designation of overseers for classes. I would not favor any obligatory commitment from this project, but for example, it would be nice if for every class at least someone from this project would post a welcome to the class on their course page.
3. No. Perhaps that ought to be here on this talk page, and then archived somewhere else in this WikiProject.

I think you just identified three fundamental problems which ought to be addressed. I suppose this should happen in the reverse order that you asked - first the education program should commit to notifying this project of all health courses, then this project should acknowledge awareness of those classes, and finally the education program should help this project develop a specialized MEDRS training for professors. Does all that seem reasonable? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:59, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

By "a thorough grounding in WP:MEDRS", I really mean a ten-minute tutorial from someone - ideally their teacher (who in turn has been thoroughly grounded in WP:MEDRS by a campus/online ambassador). None of them needs to actually even look at the actual policy. Just the basics: explain primary/secondary/tertiary and how we use them; explain WP:NOR/WP:SYN. That's enough for me.

A formal commitment is probably unnecessary. Every couple of days someone from WP:AFC turns up here with a request for eyes. I'm pretty sure those requests are always (almost) addressed. If someone pinged us when a teacher posts a list of proposed medical articles/sections, I'm pretty sure someone from here would be happy to scan it and weed out the clangers.

Others' thoughts on this would be appreciated, though. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole, I watch the education noticeboards pretty closely, and the problem about reaching out to class instructors is that there is no guarantee that they will find, or even bother to think about, any of the training materials Misplaced Pages makes available to them. Often, someone teaching a course will just set students loose on Misplaced Pages with no guidance, and may even be dismissive of experienced editors who try to get in touch with them. In the case cited here, the instructor actually tried very conscientiously to learn about Misplaced Pages before assigning the student, but didn't find the information that would have been helpful, even though the information is already available. At some point, I think we are going to need something that shows up while anyone opens a new editing account, saying something like: "If you are a class instructor, please look 'here', and if you are a student in a class, please look 'here'." But we don't have that yet. For those instructors who make the effort to do things correctly, the education program has some very good training materials. I'm sure that Sage Ross would be very helpful in adding anything (such as the video discussed below) that this Project would like into the training materials. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

it would be pretty simple to make a quick video tutorial for people who are going edit on medicine project articles. make the length 4min or so with the essentials of editing medicine. exclude most of the technical stuff (which can be learned elsewhere) but go over why we do what we do. Ian Furst (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

I've put a potential script for an "Intro to Wikiproject Medicine" here. If anyone thinks it would be a good idea, let me know and I'll do it up with animations and stuff. Otherwise, I'll let it die. Feel free to edit. Ian Furst (talk) 21:01, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, that is awesome. I can't fault it (except for one comma). --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:08, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I really like this. Maybe we need to have a bot put it on the talk page of all new medical editors :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 13:36, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Just curious - how does this project identify new medical editors? XOttawahitech (talk) 15:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Mostly by accident, when checking RecentChanges or our watchlists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Will create the video and post. give me a couple of days. Ian Furst (talk) 21:07, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Once the script becomes a video, I'd be happy to put a link to it at WP:ASSIGN. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:10, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

We could have it automatically applied to everyone who edits a medical article with a red link for a talk page? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:03, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd like that. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 08:15, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I like the idea of a video that specifically addresses editing medical topics. Different people like different media for learning. And there is definitely a large group of people who do well watching how-to-do-it videos. Right now I'm developing a tool set to be used when I train Cochrane Collaboration folks. If you create this video I would test it with a group to get feedback about how helpful it is. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 22:30, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Rough draft of video for new editors

Here's the rough draft of the video for new editors. Thought I'd share before working on the more technical stuff. Ian Furst (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

A wonderful initiative, and a lot of work! Assuming you put it here wanting criticisms, two points: 1.) For me (and I'm familiar with what Misplaced Pages pages look like) it went way too fast. Stretch it out to double the length. 2.) The sound isn't good. It sounds mushy, almost like there is an echo. Your voice, enunciation etc. are excellent. Thanks for the chance to report my reactions. --Hordaland (talk) 06:20, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Hordaland Thanks for the feedback Hordaland. I can work on the voice post-production. I've used a high quality mic and removed all the background noise, but made some changes to deepen the pitch and that made it a bit mushy. If we're going to use this alot, it may be worth the $300 or so for a professional voiceover. Re the speed, this is a double-edged sword. My intent was to provide a general overview without a lot of technical details. I've done videos like this before, and we saw huge drop-off past 2 min (e.g. people would back out the further past 2min we went). Also, the longer the video, the less likely peole will be to start. We also tried some (as flash productions) where we'd put an e-Learning question in the middle of the video in an attempt to reengage the viewer and that only made it worse. It may actually be better to remove some content and slow it down rather than lengthening the video. I'm hoping others will offer feedback and that Tryptofish or Anthonyhcole can get some student feedback. I'm also going to see if I can find some stats on video viewership dropoff. To the best of my knowedge, our video viewer doesn't provide any stats. Thanks for watching. Ian Furst (talk) 10:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Ian Furst. And excellent first draft that captures what I want new medical article writers to see. I agree with much of what Hordland said. One suggestion about content to cut the mention of translating articles and number of Wikipedias as that is not essential information and maybe not relevant. We don't want them to think that their content is going to be translated right away into other languages. Also, maybe simplify and abbreviate the section about how to specifically add high quality medical content by sending them to one primary place to see how to add referenced content. From there they can find the other pages. When we get a stable video, I can show it to the folks that I'm working with at Cochrane Collaboration to get their feedback. Overall I think that it is great. :-) Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 15:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Sydney. I've trimmed some out. I like the idea of the different languages, because it gives a greater sense of purpose to the project but you're right, so I removed some copy from it. I'll ping you once the video is stable. I'll be working on this tonight if anyone else has any feedback. Ian Furst (talk) 18:07, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Quiddity and User:The Interior might be interested in this project. Both of them know something about video. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:28, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, great work on this, well-scripted, good visuals. A couple technical nit-picks. If you are going to do another run at the audio, I'd do two things. You have some Spanish guitar on one track - you should crossfade this in with the video fade-in (maybe stretch out the fade-in/intro a bit for pacing - let the viewer absorb the image before you make the pitch), then level it down when the narration kicks in, then back up at the end. Currently, I didn't notice it until about halfway through. Second, bump all the audio tracks up a bit, if you can without getting incidental noise/buzz (it sounds pretty clean, so you should be able to). Ideally, it should be at a comfortable listening level on the viewer's computer/device at 30-40% percent volume (currently, I turned it up to 70% in a quiet room). Otherwise, nicely done! The Interior (Talk) 21:53, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, thanks for pinging me, and I want to echo the praise that other editors have given you here. If you add any further content to the video, it would be good to tell them to say on their user page or user talk page, after they register an account, what institution and class they are in, ideally with a link to the class assignment page. Failure to do that tends to be the biggest predictor of class assignments where students get "bit". Perhaps you might also want to show the students how to use Template:Educational assignment on the talk pages of the articles that they edit. Because you asked me specifically about getting student feedback, I don't personally have any student editors working with me whom I could ask. But, when you feel ready, I suggest that you post at WP:Education noticeboard, and ask for that kind of feedback there, and you'll be quite likely to get it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that we should advise new editors to out themselves. Most new editors aren't involved in class projects. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:58, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you about those points, but I think we misunderstand each other about this situation. There's nothing in anything I recommended that provides a venue for student editors revealing their identities, outside of the fact that they are editing as part of a particular class assignment. Everything I'm saying conforms in spirit as well as letter with meta:Privacy. And this isn't something that is directed towards new editors, broadly. We are talking here specifically about editors who have come here as students as part of a class assignment. If you look around WP:ENI for a while you will see just how important it is for student editors not to find themselves in the middle of a content dispute that they do not understand, and that they were not prepared for, particularly if the non-student editors they have come across are unaware that the new editors are students, and do not know how to communicate with the course instructor. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If you posted, "This is a student at ____ school", you would violate WP:OUTING. The bit about "workplace address, job title and work organisation" applies to students: going to school is their work. The fact that a student is a student is protected "personal information". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:15, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

In this case, we are talking about editors posting this information about themselves, not having it posted about them without their consent, but we are talking about other editors encouraging them to post it. I think that you have raised a thought-provoking point, however, and I thank you for making me aware of it. I think that further discussion really isn't about WP:MED, so I'm going to start a discussion about it at WP:Education noticeboard#About outing students, to examine it more closely. I'll also leave a note at WT:Harassment. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:53, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Love it, great job! Heyinternetman (talk) 15:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• I think that it is ready for live use exactly how it is without further development. If I had one wish it would be for better voice recording. If I had a second wish it would be to add nothing but to cut even more to make it 2 minutes instead of three. I have watched the video several times and there is no content I would want to cut, so I do not know how it could be shortened. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

A new video is up with some of the suggestions incorporated. If anyone wants to try using this one for new editors please feel free, I'm going to leave it alone for a couple of weeks now (unless anyone finds something majorly wrong in it). Please leave any notes for improvement down the road on my page User:Ian Furst/welcome. Hope you like it. Ian Furst (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC) Update: the videos some times take a while to sync to the servers, not sure how long until the new video makes it to this page Ian Furst (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ian, I think that it is great. :-) And will definitely preview it to the Cochrane folks for their feedback. I'll let you know if they have any suggestions. Sydney Poore/FloNight♥♥♥♥ 15:00, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Next week I'm going to try and improve the voice quality and amplitude but I think it's "good enough". Please send any feedback. I'm slowly learning how to do this stuff. Ian Furst (talk) 15:17, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Ian. I've made a link to it at WP:ASSIGN. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:44, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Have added it to WP:MEDHOW. A great video. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:08, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Elsevier "Medicine" journal ISSN 1357-3039 (formerly published by Vivendi Universal (Health) and Mediamedia)

Is the Elsevier "Medicine" journal highly read? A standard source in the UK? Due to the title, it's incredibly difficult to source info in this AfC Wikipedia_talk:Articles for creation/Medicine (journal). I can't tell whether it meets the journal notability standards, and all the info that's easy to turn up on it is in Elsevier sources. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 08:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Heli-FX

Dear medical experts: Here's one more of those old Afc submissions soon to be deleted as a stale draft. Is this information covered somewhere in another article, and if not, is this a notable topic that should be kept and improved? —Anne Delong (talk) 15:13, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Needs secondary sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:17, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello, Doc James. There are a lot of sources there. I presume from your remark that you found them to be mostly primary sources. Or is it that they don't have information about the topic? —Anne Delong (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Out of the first five, only #3 was a secondary source.

Also, "Heli-FX" is supposedly the subject, but it's not mentioned in the article at all. I couldn't even figure out what it is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:03, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

All in all, this sounds like a mess. If there's little properly sourced content, and the subject is not clear, should it just be let go? —Anne Delong (talk) 17:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 20:36, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Gone. Thanks for your input. —Anne Delong (talk) 11:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Livestrong source - Methamphetamine neurotoxicity

Chunk5Darth (talk · contribs · count) has been repeatedly adding the text " Dextromethamphetamine is the potent form in terms of dopamine-stimulation, although both forms are neurotoxic." to the Breaking Bad article. In spite of the controversial medical claim being made, is there anyone here that thinks this statement shouldn't require WP:MEDRS? Also, does anyone think that Livestrong is an even remotely satisfactory medical source? Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 00:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

References

1. Lingohr-Smith, Melissa (September 28, 2010). "Side Effects of Levomethamphetamine". Livestrong Foundation. Retrieved May 11, 2014.

It is just a tv show page by the looks of it. Not a good source for medical content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:49, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Breaking Bad is a TV show, therefore the article is not a medical article. Moreover, this is not even medical information per se. The Livestrong foundation article cites more than enough notability. Chunk5Darth (talk) 01:15, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

In the first paragraph of MEDRS: "Therefore, it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published secondary sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge." The fact that it's a tv show is irrelevant. The medical claim is the only issue here. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 03:13, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If it is true one should be able to find a better source. Yes it is medical information. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:42, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Not that it's much, but the writer of the Livestrong article, Melissa Lingohr Smith, seems to be a medical writer who published this book. Chunk5Darth (talk) 10:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I checked PubMed; there are only three articles that mention this substance, and the newest was published in 1996. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:06, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

What does that have to do with her credibility as a medical author? Chunk5Darth (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

It has quite a lot to do with the likelihood that you will be able to find a WP:MEDRS-compliant source on the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Chunk, you obviously haven't read WP:MEDRS. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 05:58, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Anatomy

Just thinking it'd be good to buff this to Featured Article status. It was made a Good Article late last year but I think can be improved in its flow and comprehensiveness. I'd welcome some comments on the talk page. I did think about setting up a formal Peer Review but I am reluctant to split up the discussion for the time being as I feel there is a momentum there. All input welcomed. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

See also section has terms that are already in the text. The see also section should really be merged mostly into the article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:44, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes - agree with this. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:34, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Video game controversies

Hello to all at the Medicine Project. I made a copy edit of this page a while ago. More recently a fellow editor made a very thorough expansion of the section scientific debate. (It falls in the realm of psychology and MRI studies). Our joint enquiry to you, now, is whether or not you think the section should be re-written in a more encyclopaedic style. I think it carefully could be to the advantage of the article. I feel that my good wiki-colleague, David A, places importance on presenting the detail of the studies, such as their methodology and I respect his conviction. If you have a spare moment, might you take a look and give us some guidance? Regards, Myrtle G Myrtlegroggins (talk) 09:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I responded at Talk:Video_game_controversies#Video_games_and_health. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for your input. Regards, Myrtle Myrtlegroggins (talk) 08:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Is anyone from this project watching the "Iatrogenesis" article?

Hi, everyone, I've had Iatrogenesis on my watchlist for a while, and I can tell that it is imbalanced and very poorly sourced, but I don't personally know better sources to nudge it toward neutral point of view and more reliable sourcing. So I'll mention to all of you here that like most of the other articles on medical topics here, the Iatrogenesis article badly needs work. This one is used a lot as a "reference" in off-wiki advocacy, so maybe it deserves higher-priority attention from those of you who can help fix it. I will keep the article on my watchlist to make sure that the editing environment is constructive and aimed at fixing the article according to Misplaced Pages policy and sound sourcing. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 13:33, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

WeijiBaikeBianji I work for an advocacy organization, Consumer Reports, which coordinates a United States national network of people, the Safe Patient Project, who do public health education, outreach, and lobbying related to medical harm. Some people in this group have edited Misplaced Pages a bit with me, and lots more have attended a couple of hours of workshops and training with me. As you say, this content is used a lot in off-wiki advocacy. When I first started doing a lot of outreach to non-Wikipedians I never anticipated that it would be so difficult to meet the needs of activists who wish to learn Misplaced Pages, but so far I have been unable to provide this demographic with the support they need to contribute on Misplaced Pages constructively. I have some initial thoughts on getting started to more deeply reach such people posted at Misplaced Pages:Consumer Reports/Safe Patient Project. I also have ideas based on how this and the range of related articles could be developed to better meet the needs of activists.

I have little time to develop these articles on my own but I watch them too. If there was an attempt to reform them I would participate. If they got to a certain level of quality then I could present them to the advocacy community for comment back to the Misplaced Pages community, and also be more persuasive in asking activists to come to collaborate with us. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Bluerasberry, It's interesting that you mention that some external advocacy organizations specifically visit Misplaced Pages to edit articles within the scope of this project. On my part, I give WikiProject Medicine a lot of credit for its meticulously developed content guideline on reliable sources for medical articles, which apply to a lot of the articles I edit (which are mostly about individual differences psychology or human population genetics or behavior genetics). It's a really good idea for any new Wikipedian to pickle himself or herself in that guide to finding good sources, as well as the general Misplaced Pages reliable sources guideline for all articles. I am currently discussing coming on board one of the new Misplaced Pages scholar in residence positions at a research university library, and I may soon have more access to good sources than ever before, which I hope to apply (with collaborative suggestions from that university's researchers) to improving more Misplaced Pages articles. See you on the wiki. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 15:10, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Stay in touch. I just made and applied Template:Medical harm to the article you mentioned and a range of others. Now at least if anyone wants to sort out this article they can readily find the others covering similar information and interlink them all more thoroughly. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Epithelial-myeloid transition

Hi, I'm new to this so tell me where to go if this is the wrong place to put this. I've been doing a bit of reading on Epithelial-mesenchymal transition in cancer metastasis on WP as well as in a couple of journals. I came across this article in the journal of cancer which doesn't conflict with but puts forward a very strong case for a different interpretation of current data. It's a trusted source and a fairly recent article so there's little else I could find on the same line. Personally I think it needs at least some mention on the EMT page and possibly others. The problem is I don't know if this is enough material to warrant mention and I could never do a good job of editing the page if it did. Moreover, the current Epithelial-mesenchymal transition theory in metastasis has been around so long it seems to be taken as fact on the page when this isn't necessarily true. Any help would be appreciated Edward.ward92 (talk) 17:33, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

That's certainly an esoteric paper. I presume that these hypotheses are specific for carcinomas, i.e. epithelium-derived cancers. I don't see how they could be relevant to haematological malignancies, and even relevance to sarcomas seems unlikely.

I think that it is worth mentioning a sentence or two about this paper's implications in the "Epithelial–mesenchymal transition" article. Axl ¤ 19:30, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Edward.ward92, this is a great place to post questions like this. The source you've found (PMID 24494030) is a recent review, and as such, its ideas seems to qualify for inclusion in the article. Since it's a "minority" viewpoint (at this point in time, at least), it should only get a brief mention. We can help you sort out what to say, but since you've been reading up on it and I haven't, why don't you just tell me what the source says, and then we'll see if we can get something into shape for inclusion in the article? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder controversies

An editor has made very bold, large changes to this article, removing reviews, adding primary studies/editorials about rat brains, and removing any material that provides any positive information about the safety or efficacy of ADHD medications. The article was a MEDRS disaster area before, but I'm afraid it is getting worse now. More eyes and comments on the talk page would be welcome. Yobol (talk) 19:22, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

The changes to the headings looked good. One does not need ADHD in each heading as that is implied. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:32, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Hello from Icahn at Mount Sinai

Hello cool wiki people,

We are medical students at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai, and we have just started a club for editing medical related pages on Misplaced Pages. Most of us are first years, and we are currently suffering through finals... But we still think wikiproject medicine is cool!

We welcome you to come and check out the pages we edit, and give us feedback and encouragements. We would greatly appreciate your support!

https://en.wikipedia.org/Education_Program:Icahn_School_of_Medicine_at_Mount_Sinai/Expanding_Wikiproject_Medicine_(2014_Spring)

Thanks!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruirui511 (talk • contribs) 00:50, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome. Great having you here.

The three most important overview articles are

1. WP:MEDRS about referencing
2. WP:MEDMOS about language usage and ordering of sections
3. WP:MEDHOW about formatting refs

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:13, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Are nutritional articles within project scope?

After hearing about this paper, I looked at the WP articles Inuit diet and Atkins diet and I was struck by the number of health claims made without MEDRS sourcing. Neither is tagged for this project, though Nutrition is. Do we need to do a scan of all the diet articles? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:00, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

These are the wild borderlands of the project, are they not? And try a Misplaced Pages search on "Health effects of", but have a stiff drink first. Wiki at Royal Society John (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if there's a pre-existing consensus on this question, but my view is that nutrition/diet articles do fall under this project's purview. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 06:10, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Neuroscience editathon at the Royal Society, 7 June 2014

An edit-a-thon on Neuroscience will take place on Saturday, 7 June 2014 from 10:30 to 13:30, see the event page. The form of the event will different from our previous events aimed at scientists, and those with an interest in science, who wanted to learn about editing Misplaced Pages. This time there will be smaller groups of scientists and experienced Wikipedians who will work together to improve articles. So there will not be the usual workshop-style training, though the scientists attending will certainly come to understand Misplaced Pages editing processes. We also welcome online participants, and suggestions of important articles in a poor state. Wiki at Royal Society John (talk) 18:18, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

New articles for review:

Please see Atherogenic Diabetic Dyslipidemia and NGR-hTNF (antitumor recombinant protein). The first article probably needs additional citations, and latter article appears unduly promotional of the company MolMed (which also needs review), especially with excessive citations of press releases.--Animalparty-- (talk) 21:39, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Physical medicine specialists

Are there any DOs, DPTs, DCs or physiatrists here willing to comment on manual therapy interventions for MSK conditions? Regards, DVMt (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's start with the primary source. You restored a primary source without a valid explanation. There is a discussion on the talk page but you have not specifically commented about the problem. QuackGuru (talk) 00:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

My god, are you seriously stalking me here too? QG, please, I'm asking a question to see if there's any physical medicine specialists out there. Stop following me, stalking me, tagging me and trolling me. I'm looking for experts out there who may be more qualified than others to discuss topics that aren't exclusive to chiropractic, but also involve osteopathic medicine, physical therapy, physiatry and other professions that practice in musculoskeletal medicine. DVMt (talk) 00:49, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

A good start when dealing with controversial topics is for everyone to use high quality secondary sources per WP:RS and WP:MEDRS. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm well aware. Primary sources can be used with respect to non-medical claims, like discussing sociological aspects of a profession. Also, I notice you trimmed this source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3922917/) but did not trim the many other primary sources in the article. The claim being made is that 81% of DCs practice in an MSK context (mainstream chiropractic) and 19% practice in an unorthodox or fringe manner. Is BMC not a legit source? Also, I'm asking for editors who specialize in physical medicine. Regards, DVMt (talk) 01:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

So you have taken a Canadian study and used it to support "Chiropractors retaining unorthodox views are in the minority, holding beliefs contrary to modern understanding of biology" We should be using secondary sources generally. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I haven't done anything. This is the most relevant passage: "The data in this investigation suggest that only 18.8% of chiropractors in Canada today define themselves in accordance with Langworthy’s original premise. This figure is consistent with McDonald’s data in the United States from 2003 , whereby a survey of 647 chiropractors suggested that 19.3% of practitioners could be identified in this way relative to their scope of practice. McGregor-Triano found 17.2% of 64 chiropractors from around the world, responding to a survey at a chiropractic conference, could be identified as belonging to the subgroup of practitioners for whom subluxation was considered an obstruction to human health.". We're trying to specifically delineate to what extent chiropractors hold anti-scientific viewpoints. This sociological study suggests that not only in Canada, but this trend holds internationally as well. Regardless, this doesn't involve a biomedicine claim. DVMt (talk) 01:53, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

But you did do something. Try to collaborate a little more. QuackGuru (talk) 07:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The details of this study are incredible and the summary provided, doesn’t do it justice imo. It defines “unorthodox beliefs” as the practices of a portion of a professional group that are dissident (from the remainder of the professional strata) and destructive (potentially harmful). In this case, anti-vaccine, use of radiographs that have little or no diagnostic value and “scope of utilization” issues (prescribing treatment for illness or perceived illness where it offers no benefit). 18.8% of all chiropractors (in Canada – but the number is similar in the US and other countries) fall into this category. 1 out of 5! But, that’s only 1 or 6 strata. They don’t share the details in the study, but if a chiropractor prescribed radiographs of no diagnostic value but was otherwise evidence-based, then they would have been categorized as orthodox. Maybe a “minority” (18.8%) have all three harmful beliefs and practices, but based on this study, there’s likely many more who hold fringe views. Ian Furst (talk) 13:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, you're interpretation is quite speculative. The main take away from the paper is regarding what % of chiropractors view dysfunctional spinal articulations as the cause of disease and others which view it under a biomechanical/MSK context. The radiographs section is regarding overuse, or not following EBM guidelines, as published by Descarreaux et al in 2008. We must be careful as to what constitutes 'fringe', otherwise off-label Rx could easily fit into that category as well. Anyways, I'm still searching for physical medicine specialists out there whose practice expertise is MSK medicine. DVMt (talk) 13:58, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It's a primary source in a fringe journal, and should not be used per WP:FRIND for anything other than mundane claims. Alexbrn 14:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

BMC is fringe? Any evidence to support your claim or is this a case of "I don't like it". DVMt (talk) 14:18, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Altmed is fringe by definition, and chiropractic is largely an altmed/fringe thing. This is an altmed journal, and not independent of its fringe subject area. Fringe people write fringe articles which are peer-reviewed by other fringe people: it's an industry talking to itself. Best to use sources which are independent. In any case, this is a primary source so would be unsuitable in any journal. Seems to me the problem here is the chiropractors working on our Chiropractic article who want to burnish their profession's reputation and downplay its quackishness: one hand on the keyboard, another on their wallets. Alexbrn 14:26, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

AltMed is not "fringe by definition". The actual definition refers to "esoteric claims about medicine". Traditional herbal medicine, basic manual therapies like massage, and other common altmed systems are not "esoteric claims about medicine".

Furthermore, even if they were, the fact that the study is published in a peer-reviewed journal whose subject is altmed does not make the source "non-independent". As you and I discussed last week, an altmed journal publishing a study about altmed is no less independent of its subject matter than a surgery journal publishing a study about surgery. "Independent" does not mean "unbiased" or "possessed of a mainstream POV" or "an editorial position that agrees with you". WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I hear what you say, WAID, since you have said it many times before. But, with respect, I think you are quite wrong and out-of-line with our policies on fringe topics: your equation of altmed practices with a mainstream field like surgery exemplifies this. There is medicine (which, yes, might well include massage) and there are "alternatives" to medicine. Anything falling in that latter category is fringe by definition and Misplaced Pages should not be promulgating the "quackademia" used to boost it. Your reasoning would have us using the journal Homeopathy, I think. Alexbrn 14:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, WhatamIdoing. Alexbrn feels it's ok to use primary sources (op-ed piece and letter to the editor) to state that osteopathic manipulation is pseudoscience such as this source but he, QG and Doc James feels that the BMC source is a no go to describe the factions within the chiropractic profession and the critical differences between "mainstream/orthodox" chiropractic which is primary spine/MSK based and the unothodox faction who are see spinal manipulation as a panacea. Are using manual and manipulative techniques for MSK disorders really fringe when when, by and large, they show comparable benefit to standard medical care? After all, JAMA seems to acknowledge that chiropractic (and acu) may be useful for LBP . Alexbrn, you keep going down a slippery slope. There is no evidence of effectiveness for homeopathy unlike manipulation and acupuncture. You're also being very dichotomous, there are shades of grey which we must acknowledge. DVMt (talk) 15:02, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

All we need to do is reflect the information contained in independent, secondary sources of sufficient quality. That way, all difficulty is avoided. Alexbrn 15:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

All we need to do is not make blanket statements that osteopathic/chiropractic manipulation is pseudoscience and fringe while using an op-ed primary source to support the entirety of the claim. I think you're liberally calling anything not medication or surgery "fringe" by default. This is a hardline stance that misses the middle ground. DVMt (talk) 15:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's see you follow your own rules, then Alex: Where's your independent secondary source saying that manipulative medicine is pseudoscience? An op-ed in a business magazine is not exactly a stellar example of a reliable secondary source. And if you think that "being a chiropractor or DO" means that an author is inherently non-independent, then "being the direct competitor to DCs and DOs" are equally inherently non-independent—especially when, as is the case here, the main purpose of the piece is to encourage customers to use your services instead of theirs. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:25, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

It's stellar enough. I do not agree (as you seem to be saying) that - say - a surgeon has a conflict of interest passing judgement on homeopathy. You seem to be engaging in some kind of relativism. Science is not a point of view. Alexbrn 15:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

You're using a straw man argument, Alex. We aren't discussing homeopathy, a red herring tactic. Are you comparing the evidence levels of MM and homeopathy? Manipulative medicine for MSK disorders seems to be mainstream whereas non-MSK applications could be considered controversial or fringe. But making a blanket statement that MM is pseudoscientific or fringe proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that this needs some serious discussion so we can get a consensus on the matter. DVMt (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

According to the journal Homeopathy there's plenty of encouraging evidence around the medical use of homeopathy (just read it). There are plenty of people who believe this, and who advocate for its inclusion here on Misplaced Pages. And that's the point. Homeopathy is perhaps the most high-profile example of why we don't use fringe journals for exceptional claims around fringe subjects. I haven't mentioned "manipulative medicine" - that seems like a very broad term which could encompass both useful things (e.g. massage) and outright quackery (e.g. craniosacral therapy). What's your point about it? Alexbrn 16:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Alex, I don't think that an op-ed in a business magazine, to comment on a treatment modality used by licensed physicians, is what PARITY is talking about when it says " if a notable fringe theory is primarily described by amateurs and self-published texts, verifiable and reliable criticism of the fringe theory need not be published in a peer reviewed journal". I'm not actually asking you for a peer-reviewed journal article. I'm asking you for an independent secondary source, instead of a primary source written by someone who seems to be bashing what he perceives as the competition. I'm asking you whether you can produce a source that won't require WP:INTEXT attribution to a single individual if we're going to comply with WP:RSOPINION. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:35, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

What text are you referring to? We're reporting opinions, no? Alexbrn 03:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

DVMt, I’ve reread the paper. The main point of the paper was to identify what percentage of chiropractors have “unorthodox” views because it has been shown to hamper interprofessional relations (specifically with orthopaedic surgeons). Unorthodox was defined as a belief that subluxation is “an obstruction to human health”. They also asked about anti-vaccine and excessive radiograph use because those are also major concerns for interprofessional relations (all this is from the paper – not speculation). 18.8% believed in subluxation as “an obstruction to human health” and there was a strong correlation between this belief, the overuse of radiographs and anti-vaccine beliefs (see regression analysis Table 2). It was speculation that the number who believed in 1 of the 3 opinions would be greater than 18.8% but that’s only because the data was not in the paper. We can email the author if the paper is going to be included. However, I am still amazed at the high percentage of chiropractors that hold these beliefs. Ian Furst (talk) 20:59, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Ian, the ironic thing is that most skeptics and physicians believe that the 18.8% are the majority of DCs. That's that interesting thing about this paper. It identifies the factions, and presents what is mainstream within chiropractic and what is fringe within chiropractic. Mainstream chiropractic=primarily MSK specialists. DVMt (talk) 21:11, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Does every article published by an organization's journal carry the force of endorsement by the organization?

At Talk:Low_back_pain#Manual_therapy_and_acupuncture_for_LBP, editor DVMt is suggesting that every article published in a medical organization's journal is endorsed by the medical organization. For example, DVMt is suggesting that a statement in an article published in JAMA carries the full force of recommendation by the AMA. Yobol pointed out, there is this statement, written in every single journal of JAMA, which reads, "All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the policy of the American Medical Association, the Editorial Board, or the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is clearly specified." Input please? Zad68 20:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Misleading. I'm asking a question if a) the article is a RS and b) "JAMA suggests chiropractic therapy may be of benefit for LBP" is an accurate representation of the content. DVMt (talk) 20:34, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Why don't we wait for other editors to read through the discussion and see if they think you're asking what we thought you were asking. In the actual discussion on Talk:LBP you really do seem to indicate that you think a statement in an article in JAMA carries the endorsement of AMA. Are you saying here that you do not think that? Then you agree that the JAMA article is not an official position of the AMA--you cannot use the JAMA article to say that the AMA recommends chiro for LBP, correct? Zad68 20:37, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

How about I state what I am asking rather trying to interpret what I am asking. JAMA suggests chiropractic therapy may be of benefit for LBP. I'm not stating the AMA endorses chiropractic. That would be loco at this point in time. Yobol thought I was trying to use a backdoor, and I wasn't, nor was I trying to circumvent systematic reviews. I don't know why you would assume that, doesn't necessarily suggest good faith. I'm keen on discussing the matters, as you can see from my edit Hx. Regards, DVMt (talk) 20:44, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

What exactly does "JAMA suggests..." mean? And how does that square with what Yobol pointed out above? Zad68 20:47, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I means exactly as read. I don't think it's up for much interpretation, IMHO. I think that Yobols main concern was that I was trying to infer that the AMA endorsed chiropractic. That was not my intent. Furthermore, I'm asking the question bc I don't want to be part of any edit warring, I truly want to build consensus. Anyways, I agree this is tricky, but let's see where it goes. Cheers. DVMt (talk) 21:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

The source reads more like a patient information leaflet than a review article. No in-line citations are provided. I do not consider this to be a suitable reference per WP:MEDRS.

DVMt's claim "JAMA suggests chiropractic therapy may be of benefit for LBP" is misleading. The paper is not a position statement by JAMA. It is an information leaflet written by Goodman et al. Axl ¤ 21:45, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Axl. This is a patient page and not a suitable source. Not listed as a review by pubmed Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Concern about Dysbiosis article

I put a "citation needed" notice on the Dysbiosis article recently. In truth I do not know whether the statement I marked (the first sentence in the article) is valid information lacking a source OR whether it is "fantasy information" for which no reliable source exists.

It is a specialized subject. I cannot fix this myself as I would not know how to find a reliable source in the field.

I'm raising my concern here as I suspect the article does not get much attention from editors and that the "citation needed" notice could linger for a long time unnoticed and unattended to.

To be specific, I wonder if "dybiosis" is a diagnosible medical condition or just a concept. The first sentence seems to try to define dysbiosis in general terms. After the first sentence, the article is about dysbiosis in specific body areas, not dysbiosis in general. I get the feeling that wool is being pulled over my eyes with this approach.

I would much appreciate your attention to this concern. CBHA (talk) 21:44, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Reducing taskforce neurology's scope

Would members of this taskforce be amenable to adding to neurology task force page:

Scope

This task force covers pages relating to neurological disease and symptoms. It does not cover pages relating to peripheral or central neuroanatomy (WP:ANATOMY, WP:NEUROSCIENCE) or physiology (WP:PHYSIOLOGY, WP:NEUROSCIENCE).

Reasons:

• This is consistent with our scope (WP:MED?), where articles pertaining to disease or injury are kept under WP:MED. ("This project supports articles related to medicine, such as diseases, conditions, and treatments for humans")
• There is an active neuroscience wikiproject (WP:NEUROSCIENCE) which already holds these articles, and WP:ANATOMY and WP:PHYSIOLOGY articles which are already co-tagged. We also have respective categories.
• There is no triage utility if this task force covers every neurology-related article under the sun, as the point of the task force (focus on a few select articles) is negated
• Editors interested in the medical side of neurology (disease/symptoms/tests) can come to the taskforce, and those interested in anatomy or all neuroscience-related articles can go to those respective wikiprojects.
• Without this statement explicitly written, editors may add neuroscience articles to the taskforce and visa versa. This is a waste of time and amending the scope could prevent this. Lastly, as I have already encountered, editors may waste colossal amounts of time tagging or co-tagging articles and this small change may prevent this.

This task force, like WPMED already does, should keep a tight focus, and neuro articles are already well-tended at the active WP:NEUROSCIENCE. I suggest this change to reduce the fruitless workload of well-intentioned future editors. I have posted this on the talk page for the neuro taskforce but closed that thread to centralise discussion. I have also reinstated this thread after it was automatically bot-archived shortly after I posted. Thoughts? --LT910001 (talk) 04:40, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good. JFW | T@lk 16:38, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Polychlorinated biphenyls and non-Hodgkin lymphoma

Could somebody take a look at polychlorinated biphenyl (both the lead section, and the "Cancer link" section) and how its possible connection with non-Hodgkin lymphoma is covered?

This is a followup to my recent request; @WhatamIdoing: responded to that, and after doing independent research, rewrote the relevant section on the NHL article: non-Hodgkin lymphoma#Causes. That effort satisfies my concerns about the NHL article, but the PCB article still covers the relevant science in a way that is misleading.

As I mentioned before, I am connected to a lawsuit that involves this issue, and I have been advised to avoid making substantial changes to the articles myself. I hope this is a straightforward enough request, that somebody with relevant expertise can make some much needed changes to the article. Please let me know if you have questions or comments. -Kdelay13 (talk) 05:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Articles for creation/Iminosugars

Dear medical experts: Is this old AfC submission about a notable topic, or should it be deleted as a stale draft? —Anne Delong (talk) 12:28, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

This article looks fine. The topic is genuine and there are several suitable papers on PubMed that could be used as references. Axl ¤ 20:19, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Several mentions of this topic in existing articles and several chemicals in this class have articles themselves. However, the lede thumb image is a poor choice...it's 1-deoxy, so it lacks the cyclic-acetal (properly cyclic-aminal for this class) of "sugar" structures. It's a notable chemical, but it's an analog/derivative of the topic of the article itself. DMacks (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Most recent WT:CHEMISTRY comments I can find say this sort of article should be titled as the singular not plural. DMacks (talk) 02:50, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I have accepted it and it is now at Iminosugar. I have no idea about the categories, though; someone here who has a clue what the article is about will have to take care of that! —Anne Delong (talk) 03:28, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

ORCID

Those of you working in medicine may be interested in ORCID. ORCID is an open system of identifiers for people - particularly researchers and the authors of academic papers; but also contributors to other works, not least Misplaced Pages editors. ORCIDs are a bit like ISBNs for books or DOIs for papers. You can register for one, free, at http://orcid.org As well as including your ORCID in any works to which you contribute, you can include it in your user page using {{Authority control}} thus: {{Authority control|ORCID=0000-0001-5882-6823}} (that template can also include other identifies, such as VIAF and LCCN - there's an example on my user page). ORCID identifiers can also be added to biographical articles, either directly or via Wikidata. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:43, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Photo for the lead of gout

Is under discussion. Others thoughts? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 11:56, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I think the picture falsely suggests that gout may be caused by an insect bite, rather than a pathophysiologic accumulation of purines, so we should look for a more accurate illustration. -A1candidate (talk) 14:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

It is a very famous picture. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Many of the medical articles have lead pictures that take a certain artistic license with the subject. My vote would be to keep it Ian Furst (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Definitely keep it. It's ideal for an encyclopedia article aimed at a general audience. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 02:49, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Asthma and paracetamol

Have added content per here ]. Further opinions requested. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:34, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't object to such a statement, but I prefer saying "The majority of the currently available evidence does not; however, support a causal role for paracetamol". We could add that the observed associations may be due to various forms of bias, as mentioned by the authors. -A1candidate (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Where are the articles for the average Misplaced Pages user?

Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an encyclopedia for everybody but many, if not most, of the medical entries read like they are journal articles or textbooks. They are way too technical for the vast majority of Misplaced Pages users.

Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not

"Scientific journals and research papers. A Misplaced Pages article should not be presented on the assumption that the reader is well versed in the topic's field. Introductory language in the lead (and also maybe the initial sections) of the article should be written in plain terms and concepts that can be understood by any literate reader of Misplaced Pages without any knowledge in the given field before advancing to more detailed explanations of the topic. While wikilinks should be provided for advanced terms and concepts in that field, articles should be written on the assumption that the reader will not or cannot follow these links, instead attempting to infer their meaning from the text.

"Academic language. Texts should be written for everyday readers, not just for academics. Article titles should reflect common usage, not academic terminology, whenever possible."

For example, this is from the entry under Myocardial perfusion imaging

"Interestingly, the concern over radiation hazard has undermined the risk associated with the allergic potential of radiocontrast (dyes) used in CT angiography and coronary angiography. In myocardial perfusion imaging, radioisotopes are used in nanomole quantities, practically devoid of any risk of allergy with normal saline being used as the vehicle and no known adverse reaction to the chemical molecules (sestamibi or tetrofosmine)."

This article wasn't written for the average Misplaced Pages user, it was written for medical professionals. Plus, it is missing numerous citations and links that might make it easier to understand.

I used to come here whenever I had a medical or health-related question but many times the articles are so full of jargon as to make them incomprehensible to anyone not possessing a degree in medicine or nursing. I often get the feeling that the people who are writing these entries believe their target audience is their peers.

I don't oppose Misplaced Pages supplying a special place where medical professionals and students can engage in ideas and discussion (a blog?) but where are the articles written for the average user?

I think this issue needs careful examination and discussion, and a wholesale rewriting of the entries that are too complex for most people. Thank you.

Rissa, copy editor 23:03, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome. Yes we are in need of more people willing / able to simplify medical content. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:24, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Welcome indeed, Rissa. Misplaced Pages is not only an encyclopedia for everyone to read, but also an encyclopedia for everyone to edit. This means that each of us are equally responsible for the readability of our content. Why not re-write the parts of Myocardial perfusion imaging that you have recognised as difficult for the average reader to understand? Very often editors who are immersed in a subject don't spot when they are using jargon and it's valuable for someone outside that subject to join in and help make articles more understandable. --RexxS (talk) 10:41, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I can't find them in the archives, but I'm sure we've had a couple of other threads like this just recently. Academic studies of Misplaced Pages (eg PMID 22166182) also support readability being one of our weaknesses. Adrian J. Hunter 11:32, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Bioregulatory medicine

New article, which appears to be a mash of dubious sources (Max Gerson as a MEDRS?) promoting yet another form of alt med. Might be a neologism. May need to be taken to AFD, is there anything worth salvaging? Yobol (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

New Electronic Cigarette Review

I thought those working on the E-cigarette article would be interested to know that a new review article out of UCSF on the topic is out. http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/129/19/1972.full TylerDurden8823 (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Great find Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 14:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, a nice review article, but also realize that Stanton Glantz and his group are anti-tobacco activists. While I agree with his agenda, use the conclusions they come to with care. --Mark viking (talk) 15:22, 19 May 2014 (UTC)