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Etymology of vape

This article needs to clarify for the etymology of vape. Several sources call the use of ecigs as smoking them, while the industry itself refers to the process as vaping (a word not found in any dictionary as far as I can tell). Where is consensus that we should not be using the form smoking ecigs, and why is it not even mentioned if there is a debate over naming use. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 12:18, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

1. http://healthland.time.com/2013/12/13/smoke-from-e-cigs-still-poses-some-second-hand-risk/ - Refering to smoke from e-cigs
2. http://motherboard.vice.com/read/teens-are-using-e-cigs-to-quit-smoking-and-failing-miserably - Refers to e-smoking, which as a term is mentionable. WP:RS for the term.
3. http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/22/manchester-city-ban-supporter-for-smoking-electronic-cigarette-after-thinking-its-real-3555276/ - Refers to smoking e-cigs
4. http://www.webmd.com/smoking-cessation/features/ecigarettes-under-fire - Craig Youngblood (industry professional) calls them: electronic, alternative smoking devices
5. http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/ed185b54-c5e0-11e3-a7d4-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2zQeQdEWo Ruyan CEO calls the use guilt-free smoking

Using the term smoking e-cigs is not unheard of, and should be represented in the article. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 12:28, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

So we should because of journalists not familiar with the topic area use incorrect terms? Smoke is incorrect, while Vapor is correct - by the definition of the terms. Strangely all of your articles specify that they are not referring to smoking, but to (scare-quote)"smoking", emissions, vaping or specify that (WebMD)"E-cigarettes don't make real smoke". The headlines of articles are generally not reliable, since they are written after editorial review for promoting the article.

I'm not against an etymology section, or a section explaining the difference between smoke and vapor - but using an incorrect term, because some media is unfamiliar with the topic they write about, is silly. --Kim D. Petersen 16:35, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been through this already with CFCF. The argument he/she used then was that we should say "smoking" because "vaping" was just industry propaganda. I disagree. YOu cannot smoke something that produces no smoke and to argue otherwise is ridiculous.--FergusM1970 18:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

But things on which you disagree with can still be of value for a reader. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 07:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Trouble here is that you appear to be starting from a faulty position. The mentions of "smoking" e-cigs only exists because journalists haven't (or hadn't) a clue about the topic they were writing about. What comes out of an e-cigarette is vapor, not smoke. The liquid is evaporated, not combusted. etc. Thus smoke is simply wrong.

With regards to your mention of "industry"... i don't really know what to do with that, since i can't see that there is an "industry" creating such terms - i do see that there is quite a large subculture thing going, where such terms come from.

Finally i can't really see that we can make an etymology section without resorting to WP:OR, at this point. --Kim D. Petersen 11:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I see only one remotely usable secondary etymology source here. In turn, it cites (and questions) a scarce magazine source at New Society, Volumes 65-66 (1983) New Society Ltd. with neither issue nor page number given. I will inqure at wp:RX to see if anyone can locate that primary source. That Wordspy entry may, however, be indirectly derived from this wiktionary citation by wikt:user:Equinox. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:03, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so the early article cited was Rob Stepney "Why Do People Smoke", New Society at Google Books, Volume 65, Number 1080 (28 July 1983) New Society Ltd. pp. 126-128. That piece is snippet view, but it clearly backs the text quoted by Wordspy (and by Wiktionary). LeadSongDog come howl! 19:07, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

If we are going to call it smoking just because some journalists calls it smoking, why not call it what it actually is aswell is since tons of journalist calls it vaping as you can see here, here, here, here, here and here.... Oh... and here, here and here as well.TheNorlo (talk) 00:43, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Inhaling "air" ist breathing, inhaling "tobaccosmoke" is smoking, inhaling an asthma aerosol is "using an asthma inhaler"! So: Inhaling a non-combustible vaporized liquid with nicotine is not "breathing" or "smoking" - It is "vaping"! The Etymology "vaping" is established since 1980 (have a look)--Merlin 1971 (talk) 11:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Systematic Review not accepted?

So... you're not accepting this systematic review?Why? It's a published, peer-reviewed secondary source! --Merlin 1971 (talk) 16:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

It appears that their are a couple of issues. One was it was a copyright violation. We must paraphrase.

The other is that it is not pubmed indexed. Will need to look at the whole article. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

My university carries it. Should be usable with appropriate wording. It does say "Riccardo Polosa is a Professor of Medicine and is supported by the University of Catania, Italy. He has received lecture fees and research funding from GlaxoSmithKline and Pfizer, manufacturers of stop smoking medications. He has also served as a consultant for Pfizer and Arbi Group Srl (Milano, Italy), the distributor of Categoria™ e-Cigarettes. His research on electronic cigarettes is currently supported by LIAF (Lega Italiana AntiFumo)." Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I removed it due to lack of MEDLINE indexing. We have plenty of secondary sources, no need to use sub-optimal ones. Yobol (talk) 00:39, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Sure... I can already see what happens here... This is WP, right? Not a political webpage, is'nt it?--Merlin 1971 (talk) 20:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

There's no requirement for sources to be either PubMed or MEDLINE indexed.--FergusM1970 00:30, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

We have better sources on this topic. QuackGuru (talk) 04:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"Better" in what way?--FergusM1970 15:53, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll second Fergus here, and add the comment that we actually do not have "plenty of secondary sources", Pubmed search coughs up 70 reviews, where most are non-related (papers such as "Impact of diet and exercise on lipid management in the modern era.") or so old that they are basically useless. --Kim D. Petersen 16:23, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

User:Yobol, it has been a while since I have read WP:MEDRS, but is that really something that is supported by policy? MEDLINE indexing isn't the be-all and end-all. This article is listed in EMBASE, as a quick search shows me, and there is only a 34% overlap between those two databases (doi: 10.1097/BLO.0b013e31802c9098). NW (Talk) 17:30, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

FDA

Is the FDA website a reliable source? See diff. QuackGuru (talk) 20:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

This would be a position statement from a internationally recognised expert body. So yes Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

If I suspected that might be the case then I would not have removed it but clearly the "Adverse Event Reports for e-Cigarettes" section of the FDA page is not a position statement. The section is merely a relaying of information that happens to consist of a summarisation of anecdotal reports. The FDA themselves state that "Whether e-cigarettes caused these reported adverse events is unknown. Some of the adverse events could be related to a pre-existing medical condition or to other causes that were not reported to FDA."

There are various anecdotal yet compelling reports out there of how e-cigarettes have had a positive impact on a person's health, yet obviously we should not introduce those due to their very nature. It is therefore impossible to balance these unconfirmed side-effects with any opposing views due to the fact that firm evidence of either simply does not exist. Whilst I am not saying that absence of an opposing valid source invalidates the original source I do think that we have to be careful to maintain a NPOV. In this case I find it hard to justify alarming, unproven medical reports that would likely remain unchallenged.Levelledout (talk) 00:55, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

In general, the FDA is a reliable source. However, that particular piece of information is a voluntary reporting of possible adverse events (possible form of selection bias) and the FDA has not confirmed any of those events were actually caused by e-cigarettes. I'm not sure it deserves to be included given the tentative nature of the data; if it is included, we have to be sure to note that it is unknown if these events are actually caused by the e-cigarettes (which would argue against even putting it in in the first place). Yobol (talk) 00:43, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

It is kind of hard to work out what the point of it is. Right now the article basically says "E-cigs cause all sorts of diseases. Except we're just saying that; there's no evidence."--FergusM1970 00:48, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"The FDA has received voluntary reports of adverse events involving e-cigarettes which include hospitalization for illnesses such as pneumonia, congestive heart failure, disorientation, seizure, hypotension, and other health problems but it is unknown whether e-cigarettes caused these adverse events."

As long we are using a reliable source and the text is neutrally written I think it is okay. QuackGuru (talk) 17:35, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

But what's the point of it? All it really says is "some people who use e-cigs got ill." Great. Some people who don't use e-cigs got ill too. I honestly can't see what it adds to the article.--FergusM1970 15:42, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I am going to remove it, since it is A) A primary source for this info per WP:MEDRS B) per WP:MEDASSESS this is just about as poor information as is possible. Without analysis these are simply anecdotal. --Kim D. Petersen 21:24, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, what I don't get is how the information got back there in the first place. In the middle of a dispute, it seems to have reappeared like magic. Anyone know where the diff is? Combined with other things I am beginning to think that there are some genuine issues occurring regarding this article.Levelledout (talk) 22:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Was reintroduced here. --Kim D. Petersen 23:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it should be in the article, and I don't think the other sentence, "Although some people have a desire to quit smoking by using e-cigarettes, other common explanations for the use of these products are to evade smoke-free laws and to cut back on traditional cigarettes, which may reinforce delaying or deterring to quit smoking." should be there either. That's incredibly POV, as well as making claims - delaying or deterring smoking cessation - that have been thoroughly disproven.--FergusM1970 13:59, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

New review in Circulation

Not sure if anyone has seen this review yet, but it looks pretty good. Ian Furst (talk) 03:15, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

No, it is not pretty good. It is biased and according to Prof. Dr. M. Siegel: "this article is little more than a hatchet job on e-cigarettes." and:

"To illustrate this, let's consider the five studies which the authors cite as providing evidence that electronic cigarettes inhibit smoking cessation. Presumably, these five studies examined the rate of quitting among smokers who used electronic cigarettes in an attempt to quit smoking. Question: Of these five studies, how many examined the rate of smoking cessation among smokers who were trying to quit using electronic cigarettes?"

Answer: "The rest of the story is that none of these studies examined quit rates among smokers who were trying to quit using e-cigarettes. None of these studies were in fact designed to examine the role of e-cigarettes in smoking cessation in the first place." Source: The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary--Merlin 1971 (talk) 20:03, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Circulation is a well respected journal. It is a recent review article. Good find. We can definately use this as a source. Now the blog we can definately not use. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Have you read the "review" Doc James? I find the paper questionable, even without looking at Dr. Siegel's blog... First thing that strikes me is: It reads more like policy advice/advocacy than a review, Second thing is how far the "narative" in the paper is from the other reviews that we've examined, Third thing is that the references in the paper seems both incestrous and picked to toe a line (cherry-picking may be too far, but not that far), Fourth the summary of some of the papers do not match well with the description in the papers, and finally the primary authors affiliation is a bit problematic. Now after reading Siegel's commentary, i'm even more critical.

Yep, it is a WP:MEDRS... but frankly i wouldn't use it for the problems mentioned above, and if using it, then i would say that the weight given to the paper must be small considering these observations. Not everything in RS or MEDRS is good. --Kim D. Petersen 21:56, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Just glanced at it. Read a lot of circulation. It is the journal of the AHA and is very well respected. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:00, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Even good journals sometimes print dodgy papers... i'm not questioning the journal at all. --Kim D. Petersen 23:18, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Some of the language in the "review" doesn't belong in this article. For example: "Although research is limited, it is transparent that e-cigarette emissions are not simply "harmless water vapor," as is commonly claimed." Research is actually extensive - Glantz just won't acknowledge it unless it matches his views - and the way the sentence is phrased practically accuses e-cig manufacturers and harm reduction advocates of lying.--FergusM1970 00:35, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

There are some fairly opinionated assertions in there such as "E-cigarette advertising on television and radio is mass marketing of an addictive nicotine product". At the same time this is somewhat odd because under the disclosures section it states that "Dr Benowitz is a consultant to several pharmaceutical companies that market smoking cessation medications".

I also wonder whether a cardiovascular journal is an appropriate place for this review. Very little of the review appears to focus on cardiovascular issues. As an example would the peer reviewers have expert knowledge and experience of propylene glycol breaking down due to heat and forming toxic substances such as acrolein? Levelledout (talk) 01:17, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

This review is written by tobacco experts, and reviewed in an appropriate journal (smoking cessation clearly falls under the purview of a cardiovascular journal as a topic). If it is incorrect, there will be plenty of other reviews that will come to the opposite conclusion and we can add those if/when they are published. That specific editors disagrees with the conclusion or specific tone of the source is not a valid reason to rule a source unreliable. Yobol (talk) 03:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually reviewing sources and assessing their individual merit is exactly what we should do. Considering the tone of a source as well as compare it to other reviews, is one of the things that we as editors are supposed to do, no matter whether it is science, medicine, history or politics. In this particular case, the review is written by anti-tobacco advocates, and that tone can be detected in both their conclusions and their tone.

Let me state an example from the paper that i don't think has been commented upon by others: In the review they refer to a study by Dr. Farsalinos regarding the cytotoxicity of flavored e-cig concentrates, and give some results as if these were actual e-liquid for consumption... they weren't (i noticed this because i myself was thinking that i should keep away from cinnamon flavor based on a quick reading at the time), in fact these were the basic food-flavoring (in 100 and 50% solution) that were cytotoxic at concentrate level but not at e-liquid levels (typically with contrate dissolved at 6-20% in PG/VG mix).

So i'd be very careful in using this review as gospel. --Kim D. Petersen 23:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Is it? At least one of the authors is an aeronautical engineer. This is the third study he's produced this year that's attracted ferocious criticism from within the tobacco control community, up to and including accusations of intentional dishonesty, because the conclusions it draws aren't supported by the data. He's making claims about the effectiveness of e-cigs as a quit aid based on studies that didn't ask people if they were using e-cigs as a quit aid. That's activism, not science.--FergusM1970 04:01, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Your personal opinion of the MEDRS compliant source has no weight in the discussion. QuackGuru (talk) 04:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Fergus is entitled to their opinion and has explained their reasoning. Whether the source has taken a neutral approach or is a biased position paper is actually relevant in determining whether it is WP:MEDRS compliant. On the other hand stating that it is WP:MEDRS compliant without providing a reason is insufficient in accordance with WP:CON.

I have tried to think of a compromise to address some of the grievances discussed here and there is only one that I can think of at the moment that would keep personal opinions and unreliable sources out of the actual article. This would be that if this source is used then the disclosures should also be added to the article. For example:

++info about study++ One of the authors of the study "is a consultant to several pharmaceutical companies that market smoking cessation medications and has been a paid expert witness in litigation against tobacco companies"Levelledout (talk) 10:06, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Another Cessation Study That Has Been Added

See . The New York Times has been used as the source which obviously does not really conform with WP:MEDRS, the article is I believe based on this press release in the peer-reviewed Addiction journal: ] The study is not actually published until tomorrow (midnight tonight UK time, which is a couple of hours away). It is not a systematic review but it has been peer-reviewed and renowned UK organisations like University College London and Cancer Research are involved. It also seemingly directly addresses the issue of e-cigarettes and smoking cessation in an area where data in general is lacking at present. Although 6000 people took part, I'm not sure of the quality of the methodology of the study, maybe others can comment here and more will obviously become apparent when its published. The question is should we wait for this to be reviewed or should we keep it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levelledout (talk • contribs) 21:17, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Consensus so far has been not to use non-WP:MEDRS sources (and non-reviews) for information such as this. NYT is certainly not a valid source for this. --Kim D. Petersen 21:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

What do you mean it is not reliable? This is not an article about Medicine, and the article is not attempting to diagnose or treat a disease. Cwobeel (talk) 22:09, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

The survey and the results are medical data - NYT is not a reliable source for interpreting science. It is a reliable source for many other things though. --Kim D. Petersen 22:12, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes we need high quality secondary sources and position statements of major organizations. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 22:59, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

That is a very narrow interpretation of policies, and I respectfully disagree with your assessments. Cwobeel (talk) 00:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

There certainly are some narrow interpretations going on here, such as the utterly baseless claim that to be WP:MEDRS a source has to be PubMed-indexed, but in this case it's reasonable to ask for a better source. Like this one.--FergusM1970 00:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I think it would be better to follow WP:CON and wait until a consensus has developed on this matter rather than descend into a mini-edit war after almost every post. Levelledout (talk) 00:52, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The NYT article, and the primary journal article are not WP:MEDRS compliant. When this study is reviewed and placed in context by a MEDRS compliant secondary source like a review article, we can include said information. Yobol (talk) 01:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

My previous post was not a complaint that it had been removed, it was a complaint that the information had been reverted back and forth 4 times in the last 24 hours. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levelledout (talk • contribs) 01:23, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

This approach to argue for WP:MEDRS is totally stupid. This is a survey reported in reliable secondary sources, not an assertion of a cure or a medicine. Cwobeel (talk) 02:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that you have come to the determination that the NYT is a reliable source for medical claims. It is not. Yobol (talk) 03:31, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I've asked several times for someone to show me where MEDRS says primary sources can't be used. Zip. Yes, I know it says they can't be used to rebut secondary sources, but MEDRS does not say they can't be used at all.--FergusM1970 03:57, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

You should stop asking. Everyone knows primary sources are generally not acceptable. Claiming "MEDRS does not say they can't be used at all" is not the point. We got plenty of good sources. QuackGuru (talk) 04:09, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, the issue is that primary sources are allowed, but they are generally considered worse as they are less reliable than secondary sources. Therefore they should only be used when there is a lack of secondary sources concerning a topic, and in this case there is no lack. Any perceived lack due to secondary sources only pointing in one direction should be telling for the stance of the medical community at large. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 09:12, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

But the secondary sources aren't all pointing in one direction. I know that's the accepted version here, where WHO FAQs are counted as secondary sources and the Smoking Toolkit Survey isn't, but the evidence is in fact quite conclusive that e-cigs are not an obstacle to smoking cessation. Even Glantz seems to acknowledge this; his latest utterance is very revealing.--FergusM1970 12:46, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I quote from the WP e-cigarette article, "The review found no studies that directly measured the effectiveness of electronic cigarettes in smoking cessation". Levelledout (talk) 10:16, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure there have been several. The Bullen study, for example, or the Italian one. They consistently find that e-cigs - even cigalikes - are at least as effective as licensed NRT.--FergusM1970 15:08, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Well the review from my previous quote was published in 2011 so that information may be outdated to some extent. My point was as much intended to illustrate the fact that there is a lack of systematic reviews using direct studies on cessation. So other than position statements which echo this decent primary sources are (mainly) all we have. In fact we already have several primary sources in the article's cessation section.Levelledout (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Well here is the study anyway which has now been published: ]Levelledout (talk) 18:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I fail to understand the arguments made here. This study is a survey, not a medical treatment or a quack, or any other medicine-related study. So why are folks here referring to WP:MEDRS???? Enlighten me, please. Cwobeel (talk) 22:14, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Since the survey you are referring to, is published in a peer-reviewed medical journal, it is classified as science. And as such a summary from a non-science source wouldn't be reliable, regardless of the general reliability of the non-science source, thus the requirement for WP:MEDRS on such info. Newspapers and other such media are generally very poor at summarizing science and interpreting the results. Other than that, the information is interesting, and hopefully will be covered in a review within a short while, and thus end up being written about here. --Kim D. Petersen 22:36, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

So the policy you are then invoking is WP:PRIMARY? I am still confused, sorry. Cwobeel (talk) 22:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Why we can't quote directly from a peer-reviewed article? Cwobeel (talk) 22:42, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:SCHOLARSHIP: Many Misplaced Pages articles rely on scholarly material. When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. Cwobeel (talk) 22:44, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

You can use the peer-reviewed paper as a source. What you can't do is use a newspaper article about the peer-reviewed paper.--FergusM1970 14:46, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

OMG, all this discussion for just saying that the NYT article can't be used, but the peer reviewed article can? This is nuts. Cwobeel (talk) 16:57, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

According to this edit we can't use the peer-reviewed article. User:FergusM1970, you should not delete the peer-reviewed source. QuackGuru (talk) 18:28, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Regardless of whether removal of the information was right or wrong in this particular case, it must be admitted that WP:CON and WP:NPOV were not adhered to in the first place. WP:CON was not followed due to editing (adding information) during a dispute before a consensus had been reached (same as the FDA information). WP:NPOV, well that one is obvious to a greater extent but included:

• Opinions were stated as facts in Misplaced Pages's voice
• Judgemental, biased language was used, e.g. "to evade smoke-free laws"
• No attempt was made to indicate the relative prominence of opposing views

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