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Should we do re-directs of the movies to here

The other articles about the movies? In other words redirect those articles to this article. There does not seem to be much of a reason for keeping those separate movie articles. Some of the Zeitgeist members that edit here are still kicking about the first movie not being connected but that is a non issue as overwhelming sources, plus common sense says they are. It is bad form to bend to their will just because they form a presence here. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Merging is good. Tom Harrison 10:57, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I started the process and this guy accused me of 'being' a Zionist Agenda. That made me scratch my head I think he should be kicked out of editing Misplaced Pages for that. That aside merge the movie articles into the Zeitgeist Movement article, yes. No doubt these articles of movies were created by the zealous supporters and have no real value except to promote. Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I saw that too...if it repeats, a report to AN/I should produce a lengthy block. As far as the redirects, I'm not in any camp in that, but thought that the "movement" only happened after the movie...and to be honest, it seems like a scam to me or a hoax.--MONGO 15:29, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Let me clarify something. I have nothing against the Jewish people or religion, nor any other belief system. What I am against is the constant erosion of these articles by Earl King Jr. and co. who seem intent on undermining the perceived "anti-Semitic" message of these films by souring the articles. He and others appear to lurk around these articles, waiting for other editors who they perceive as "sock puppets of Peter Joseph", "Zeitgeist members", "zealous supporters", etc. to be turning the other way, before editing to their tastes. Moreover, they appear to be the type of disruptive editors who attempt to game the system by careful, sometimes tag-team-like manoeuvers that leave their opponents looking like the unruly element. Sure, take it to the highest authority if you want to see me banned. As for the matter of article blanking, there is no consensus for that. Please desist. And I didn't accuse Earl of 'being' a Zionist agenda, I gave him a nickname, like Phil "The Power" Taylor. He's earned it. nagualdesign 16:17, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

How did I earn it? Nothing you just said makes sense. You have no credibility and are now repeating that I earned the moniker Zionist agenda your nickname for me in your edit summaries. That does not even make sense. How do I have a 'Zionist agenda' You think I want a new Israeli empire in the Middle East? That is the common usage of that term. Also I did not blank the article so your edit summary is false. I did a redirect to the Movement article because the movie articles are mostly pointless fluff promotion pieces. Saying I blanked the article is lying unless you do not understand what a redirect is. Right now the small consensus is probably to redirect the two movie articles anyway into the main Zeitgeist movement article and I am going to do that. Maybe hold off on redirecting the 'Zeitgeist the movie' article for a while but that probably also could be redirected into this article page. Since you are editing as an anti ethnic group or anti country conspiracy person that believes in a secret agenda, I suggest you go easy on your reverts because that perspective is not neutral. Yes, you deserve a block and especially now since you are repeating the same thing without any apology for your language or inference and your rationale does not make sense, but you repeat it again. Maybe it is part of the Zeitgeist stuff to believe in conspiracy things but it is absurd to translate that to here. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:55, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Given that the movie articles were redirected with no discussion on the relevant talk pages whatsoever, I have reverted. Any redirects will have to be justified vie WP:RS - i.e. evidence that sources discuss the movies in relation to TZM, rather than as independent material. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:30, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

What was the timeline...which came first? The movement or the movie? Also...what movement? A few wackos on the loose who watched a movie and want to protest at vermin ridden inner city tent encampments does not a "movement" make.--MONGO 03:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Can we please not turn this talk page into a forum for anti-TZM rants. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not democratic Andy. Getting overloaded with the same people that made the movie entries to discuss anything is pointless. The movies can fit nicely into the Zeitgeist Movement article. There is no real reason to highlight them beyond telling people the basics instead of a blow by blow account mostly sourced from Zeitgeist material. I think you could leave the redirects alone Andy. Yes, you can edit with the Zeitgeist sock-puppets and meat-puupets here if that is your prerogative though. Mostly these are internet released movies. There is virtually no serious commentary about them except mostly scathing critiques. Maybe some think the moon shot was faked also but can not verbalize because of chips implanted. The Movement article is pretty good now. Look at it from a year ago. Again Andy so far I have never seen you edit anything, just remove the hard work of others. Cited information. Reliable sources. Citing policy in the nastiest way possible ain't pretty either, or not being able to back off when wrong. Earl King Jr. (talk) 07:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Consolidation is definitely in order. It might be better to merge the movie articles into one page to start with. Then, material about the movement can be included there as a section, and this article redirected there. Tom Harrison 10:02, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, into one article I think. This article says there was the first movie, then a second movie, the end of which it was announced that the movement was to get started. It's all very exciting I suppose but it's mostly self referential and not really sure that it's more than an internet meme...its getting too much out of us by getting multiple articles.--MONGO 11:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The Zeitgeist people are just going to keep reverting along with Andy now for what ever reason. Andy, you also did a false edit summary by saying the redirect was not discussed. Why are we promoting a bunch of internet You-tube movies? Do hits on You-tube actually mean anything? Its just free advertising with the movie articles. Andy apparently will chew his leg off rather than admit any error so the usual comments of outrage and fake policy diatribes can be ignored from him. The same cast and crew sometimes with different names will just keep repeating that the 'Zeitgeist the movie' is not connected with the movement. As far as the time line obviously the movement in a bottle, just add water, was a spinoff later of Zeitgeist the movie. So it is just a part of the history of this thing. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Since it is self-evident that Earl King Jr. is incapable of complying with policy concerning this article and the related ones on the movies, I shall be starting a thread on WP:ANI, asking for him to be topic banned. What with repeated personal attacks on this page and in edit summaries, the repeated use of this talk page as a forum to promote half-baked conspiracy theories, and a complete disregard for NPOV and RS policy in editing, I think it is clear enough that he is far too emotionally involved to maintain the necessary standards regarding this controversial article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:27, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

You are way over reactive. I am a neutral editor here that is using cited sources and improving the article. I do not understand this reaction. We are just trying to discuss things in an even handed manner. I see your block history. I assume you are trying to provoke a reaction and that is not going to happen. It's true that I rewrote the article mostly but I do not possess it. Lets make it about editing and not editors unless there is a real issue. Its your prerogative to hover over this article and revert revert revert but that is not really constructive. Better you engage in the debate in this thread. This topic is controversial so caution and super neutral approach must be used. There is a lack of good citation references and that is a problem in general. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:48, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

A 'neutral editor' wouldn't be posting half-baked conspiracy theories on this talk page - and repeatedly violating WP:BLP policy in the process. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:12, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

• Speaking as a non-involved administrator, Earl King Jr., achieve consensus to merge the pages before you try to merge these articles. Repeatedly trying to merge well established articles without consensus is "less than awesome," and will lead to issues if you continue doing so. Kevin Gorman (talk) 04:33, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Alright. So far the consensus is to merge though that is marginal, here on this talk page. Its difficult because of the many people that land here from the Zeitgeist. For that reason, if you look at the article history say from a year ago you will notice that the article was pretty awful and constantly under attack for adding cut and paste material from the group. The movie articles are part of the walled garden of related things and it was all maintained intensely by movement members. Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:59, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Completely against merging. Each page (movie) should be taken on a case by case basis, just like any other article on Misplaced Pages. Earl King Jr.'s long term anti-Zeitgeist agenda has grown tiring; largely a single topic editor, I suggest he find a new hobby. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:02, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The way to get started is to first merge the movies into one article. That should be relatively uncontroversial, if there's no consensus for more, then no more needs to be done. But there's no reason to have a different page for each movie. Tom Harrison 10:31, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe...the movies must surely be more notable than this cock and bull "movement" hoax. I'll look into the notability of all these things before I comment further...if indeed there are more than a few wackos that are part of the "movement" them maybe this article has a purpose....right now all I see is that a head wacko that won't tell the world his surname says it's a movement, then some other wackos want to yack about it at tent encampments and you have some mass murderer that watched the movie and another wacko that lives in a tree somewhere....it's beyond weird...--MONGO 11:31, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

The suggestion above is good The way to get started is to first merge the movies into one article. That should be relatively uncontroversial, if there's no consensus for more, then no more needs to be done. But there's no reason to have a different page for each movie. How is the title of an article changed? Maybe use the first movie as the one to merge the others into. So do a redirect to Zeitgeist the movie of the other ones? Give it a rest 'some different stuff' You are way off base. The main body of the article is very good now. There is nothing anti Zeitgeist about it. Maybe because you are one of the pro sympathizers here that end up with meats and socks backing is the reason you are upset. As I said before I think Zeitgeist is funny and a cultural marker and it is hard to resist trying to make the article neutral. Earl King Jr. (talk) 12:38, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Its sad to see the obsession by those who wish to remove the massive cultural impact Zeitgeist and the sequels have had. Since it is more "underground" this route is a viable scam by those who wish to remove the influence from the internet. The fact is, each movie is a separate idea and they all have no direct relationship to the work being done by TZM. By work, I mean TZM does not promote the movies and the events hold focus only on the RBE stuff. TZM is not a "fanclub" of the films and hence any merger is highly misrepresenting of TZM's actual work and ideology. JamesB17 (talk) 19:02, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Many films are relevant to the movement's goals which advocate an Open Source social system without the market's concept of fair or equal exchange. Hell I could go to youtube select some TZM lectures without a including a film from the zeitgeist film series, burn it to a DVD, and it would give an accurate display the goals of TZM.

The goal by Anti-TZMers here is to merge "Zeitgeist the Movie" with TZM page, since the first film does not describe TZM's soultion and is more a personal film by Peter Joseph. It's an off-topic stratgegy.Spirit of the times (talk) 01:25, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Redirecting the movie article pages part 2

So one movie article has again been redirected Zeitgeist: Addendum to this article. The Zeitgeist Movement umbrella seems to cover it for sure. According to the Zeitgeist people information it is a part of the movement, a sequence at the end of Joseph's second film, Zeitgeist: Addendum (2008), introduced the Zeitgeist Movement. The fans of the first two films became organized into the Zeitgeist Movement. Earl King Jr. (talk) 02:08, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

It hasn't been redirected and Zeitgeist: Addendum has been an article on Misplaced Pages for over 3 years. -- You need to chill out Earl. -- Having recently been the subject of a complaint on the Edit Warring Noticeboard due to your obnoxious behavior, I recommend you notify all of the editors who have played a significant roll on the articles in question and see what the consensus is. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 20:23, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

It does not matter really how long it has been here if there is a reason for it not to exist presently as there is according to consensus of several people. As a formerly blocked editor, for edit warring and tendentious editing on this article and others you might exercise caution and also some caution about your way of phrasing things here, with your focus on other editors You need to chill out Earl. -- Having recently been the subject of a complaint on the Edit Warring Noticeboard due to your obnoxious behavior, I recommend you notify all of the editors who have played a significant roll on the articles in question and see what the consensus is. end quote I would say you are trying diligently to 'bait' another editor here. Big mistake given your history. That will be reverted again because the argued aspect of it here on the talk page is indicating it is a good idea to cut back on these promo articles that are related to many of the current and former members of Zeitgeist related groups that come here and edit aggressively for bits and pieces of their theories and space for their film products. S.D.S. how is it that you are calling another editor obnoxious right off the bat for just doing their volunteer job of editing on Misplaced Pages? With your history of editing warring on the article I suggest its time for you to stop that approach of baiting and trying to rile up over edits and stick with Misplaced Pages guidelines. Also editing with the meat and sock puppets that come here is not exactly good company and there is a checkered history of swarms of them coming to do their dirty work on the article or in other words advert the article for promotional reasons. These are only internet movies released on Youtube. Is it really not a bad idea to consolidate the movies into the main Zeitgeist Movement article? It appears that makes sense and right now consensus is leaning that way. A lot of scrutiny will be given to the Zeitgeist supporters that show up here and say otherwise, as it should be. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:17, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Once again, I remind people that any proposal to redirect the articles should be noted on the talk pages of the articles concerned, with a link to this discussion. I would have thought that this was obvious - bet evidently it isn't. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Once again, but that predicate is not so. There is an active discussion on this page of that issue. If you care to go to those pages and put this section on the talk pages, but giving orders? No. The articles are probably going to be put into this article except maybe for the first movie. Mostly consensus is for that and other independent editors seem to go with that. I would caution you not to immediately make unrealistic demands as previously done, at the recent board. Already s.d.s. is doing exactly what he was doing before with baiting tactics. You never edit this article only make reverts which is your prerogative. If you are interested to do something yourself like going to those pages and telling people to come here, do so. Otherwise I remind you that you can not give orders to other editors and that the discussion of those article is being held here currently unless you change that instead of complaining. Earl King Jr. (talk) 03:32, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Turning an article (or swathe of articles) into a redirect - ie. removing all page content - at least deserves the same courtesies as deletion discussions or proposing a merger. That said, my response on any page will be the same; Has there been some effort to merge the information from each film article into the TZM article? I'm guessing not. What would be the point? This isn't an article about film synopses, it's about an organization. Which begs the question, do you propose to simply toss out the information from the film articles? That's going to need some strong justification, not just saying they're "promo articles" (which they most certainly aren't).

Before I ever edited these articles I'd watched 1 or 2 of the films, and wondered how Zeitgeist: Final Edition fit into the series. To my surprise there was no mention of it on Misplaced Pages. I googled it and discovered it was a re-release of The Movie, then I looked around to find out what the difference was between the two, if any. Having made some effort to find out, and being a Misplaced Pages editor, I then sought to contribute this information to the relevant article. About the movie. Not the 'movement'. I couldn't give a flying f*ck about The Zeigeist Movement, and I don't want to know about it. All I thought was, Misplaced Pages is good for movie facts.* I often scan movie articles to look at the critical reception sections, just to see the score on Rotten Tomatoes and any other relevant trivia, before I watch them. I skip over the synopsis entirely (don't like spoilers) but they're essential for an encyclopedia. I cannot understand why anybody would get so emotional about a film that they think it shouldn't be mentioned on Misplaced Pages, or that having an article serves as some kind of endorsement or propaganda. They're just encyclopedia articles about films. Even Jew Süss has its own article. Lighten up, and step away from the subject. Do something else. nagualdesign 04:06, 10 May 2014 (UTC) *My contribution was later spirited away by Earl & Co., and to this day there's no description of Zeitgeist: Final Edition on Misplaced Pages.

This is an article talk page not a blog, also it is a controversial article so caution has to be used. Saying things like I cannot understand why anybody would get so emotional about a film that they think it shouldn't be mentioned on Misplaced Pages, or that having an article serves as some kind of endorsement or propaganda. is begging some question that no one asked and does not make any sense. A redirect means that someone looking for information is directed to where the information is. Its not a conspiracy to deny people knowledge about this internet movie. These Zeitgeist movie sites could be combined with the current article except maybe for the first movie which is kind of a stand alone for its posits of conspiracy theories. You are still accusing me of having a Zionist Agenda as your previous rationale for reverting on the article. Earl King Jr. (talk) 05:09, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

*sigh* ..Let me help you to get started by asking you a simple question: What is your rationale for each page redirect? nagualdesign 19:20, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Me thinks all should be redirected to the first movie, or all deleted. Its a Youtube flick that was written, edited etc. by one dude only...what makes any of this stuff notable?--MONGO 22:03, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Maybe having the movies except for the first one, redirect to 'Zeitgeist movement' might be better. Either way is probably o.k. but yes, it makes little sense to have all the movie sites when really the only one that is different is the first one and what makes it different is that there was no Zeitgeist movement then. Peter Joseph 'created' that in the tail end of the second movie. If you want to start 'Articles for Deletion' on the movies I would support that also, at least the ones after the initial movie. The original movie is unique probably because of its influence on pop conspiracy culture. I would also support your idea of just redirecting the ones after the first one to the original movie page. Earl King Jr. (talk) 04:45, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I'd say redirect it all to the first YouTube flick...the "movement" is a pipedream and I'm not convinced it is notable enough to warrant an article.--MONGO 14:55, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The movies are all definitely notable, as evidenced by all the reviews and articles cited. And they each exist as films in their own right. How they were published is immaterial, as is how many 'dudes' were involved. I don't know how notable TZM is one way or the other though. Again, why remove the articles? What is the rationale? nagualdesign 19:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

How are they notable? YouTube movies are not notable. One guy then claims there is a movement...so what. There are no specifics as to membership, organization or anything else....all we have are some people that watched one or more of these flicks in YouTube and then what? Where is the headquarters?--MONGO 22:40, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I've already answered that question; the numerous citations on each page demonstrate notability. As for YouTube movies and the like, take a look at this list, and take note of how many have their own articles. nagualdesign 23:16, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Merge the movies all together into one article. All will be better presented in context of the others, it will be easier for readers to have it all in one place, and it will be a better article. Tom Harrison 21:16, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

It makes some sense, at least, to merge the movies articles and leave this one alone. Although I wouldn't support it unless a better quality article could first be made (in a sandbox). Simply saying it will be better doesn't make it so, but making things easier for readers is laudable. nagualdesign 23:16, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

So, redirect the movie articles into Zeitgeist the movie' or Zeitgeist Addendum? Then take some bits and pieces from the redirects, because otherwise the new article would be too big. Maybe just mention some basic things about the other movies. They are still just Youtube release movies as said above. As far as making copies in a sandbox that is fine if anyone here wants to do that but it is not necessary criteria on articles. Also as to notability of these I've already answered that question; the numerous citations on each page demonstrate notability. end quote Nageldesign. Actually that is wrong. One of the basic problems with all the Zeitgeist related stuff is the lack of good source citations, so many citation are used over and over. It just has not been written about a lot and what has been written generally is negative critique type things from the media with some few exceptions. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:09, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you and Tom Harrison...using Misplaced Pages as an example of what we should cover is bad precedent, see schools and Pokemon characters. Perhaps all those other junk articles exist because they haven't gotten the attention this one has...we just need ot figure out what article should be the daddy one.--MONGO 01:17, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Redirect all the movie articles to the initial movie. That's gotten the most attention of the movies. Give the other movies a paragraph or two. Ravensfire (talk) 01:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I think notoriety equals notability. With regards to the sandbox idea, a blind man on a galloping horse could see that this is going to be contentious, so I strongly suggest that any proposed overarching article be created separately, be it a sandbox or a new article. At the very least, material should be progressively copied to the new page in a transparent manner, with other editors free to interject, before the original articles are wiped. And just to be clear, I'm not saying that I support this merger at all at the moment. I've yet to be convinced as to how or why a new article will be better. nagualdesign 01:45, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Changing the movie article

O.k, the most popular idea seems to be to put the movie articles into the original movie. Zeitgeist the Movie. As far as it being contentious it does not seem to be except maybe by some of the Zeitgeist hangers on. As far as sandbox its probably a waste of time for people to discuss that being done and not doing it themselves. So someone, probably not me because I have done my fair share on these things, take some basic stuff from the movies and redirect then to the first movie. Earl King Jr. (talk) 13:44, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Sticking all of the movies into the first film is one of the worst ideas I've heard. Not only does the first film have plenty of references to be a stand alone article, but they are different films, which is why different articles were created for each one of them in the first place. The only way it would possibly make sense would be to create a new article called The Zeitgeist Film Series, which is what it actually is - and then put information from the 3 film articles into that new article. -- But then you end up with either 3 different Criticism/Reception sections (one for each film), or just 1 bigger one that is largely focused on the first film with some other stuff shoved in there regarding the later two films. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:27, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

The films are just YouTube films right?--MONGO 11:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

No, they had screenings around the world and are available for purchase on Amazon like any other film. One significant difference is that all of the films are available for free/legal download. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 11:41, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I suggest S.D.S remove the Amazon sales site above. That is blatant advertising promotion and probably will even Google up and people can use it for reference to buy the movie, so it is really awful promotion. Screenings around the world? By Zeitgeist supporters, some of the same people that created the content of the articles here also. Its doubtful that a theater actually showed these movies to a real audience beyond fringe festivals and weekend events. What is the longest actual theater showtime release period? They are notable because they sell them on Amazon? funny idea. Anybody can sell any thing on Amazon. Joseph makes X amount on each C.D. sold so why would we make a giant advert leading to his 'film series' website and his pay pal button? Earl King Jr. (talk) 14:01, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Its sad to see the obsession by those who wish to remove the massive cultural impact Zeitgeist and the sequels have had. Since it is more "underground" this route is a viable scam by those who wish to remove the influence from the internet. The fact is, each movie is a separate idea and they all have no direct relationship to the work being done by TZM. By work, I mean TZM does not promote the movies and the events hold focus only on the RBE stuff. TZM is not a "fanclub" of the films and hence any merger is highly misrepresenting of TZM's actual work and ideologyJamesB17 (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Creating a sandbox for the proposed changes

I agree with user:nagualdesign that this process be transparent. I highly suggest that anyone who is pushing for these changes create a sandbox for the proposed changes/new article so that a consensus can be arrived at in terms of what is to be included. There would be a lot of work to do here regarding content choice and the process should not be rushed. -- If someone doesn't know how to create a sandbox just look at the top of this page to the right of your username. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 11:35, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If someone wants to do that fine. If no one does it in the next 24 to 48 hours and finishes it in a day or two, then lets redirect the movies into the first movie. Also making a dedicated Misplaced Pages article that is named after a Peter Joseph blog is a bad idea The Zeitgeist Film Series is his website, why would we name a Misplaced Pages article after the 'Official Website' for Peter Josephs Youtube movies? Oh and his sites are pay pal sales sites for DVD's and it is all self sourced material. Also I see 'some Different stuff' is posting links to his edit warring thing. Could you stop? , you were blocked for tendentious edit warring and interrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point on this article. Earl King Jr. (talk) 13:46, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Re: "If someone wants to do that fine. If no one does it in the next 24 to 48 hours and finishes it in a day or two, then lets redirect the movies into the first movie." No, don't do that. Please read this. nagualdesign 20:16, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

• Speaking as an uninvolved adminstrator, I would highly suggest that anyone considering merging articles in this group do so by establishing consensus on each individual move (which I do not currently see, and which would likely involve a discussion on each talk page.) Given the prominence of this series of articles, I do not believe it is appropriate to merge them without a consensus being established, and I see no consensus for their merge, here or anywhere else. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:12, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

  Perhaps...but I have yet to see anyone demonstrate notablity for anything other than the first movie. I guess there was a sequal movie as bizarre as this one where the editor/writer/producer/director then proclaimed that the "movement" was now beginning. It reminds me of the scene in Forrest Gump where Gump has been running forever and he has this pack of dimwits also running behind him and then Gump stops and they all say, gee what are we suppose to do now Gump?--MONGO 04:18, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

If you don't think they are notable, you could always AfD them. But currently there's not a consensus in favor of merging the articles; merging them needs to wait until there is a consensus in favor of merging them (and all potentially effected pages need to be notified - there are templates to do so, although I can't remember what they are offhand (I wound up with a concussion last night that scrambled my brain a bit, heh.) If additional outside attention is desired, you can always run an RfC or other proess about it. Kevin Gorman (talk) 14:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah its a colossal waste of time dealing with the pro Zeitgeist people and yes they are internet movies that are sort of an Angry Birds flash of pop culture. I doubt one theater had a real run of people going to see these movies. Earl King Jr. (talk) 07:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

"Yeah its a colossal waste of time dealing with the pro Zeitgeist people" That's some good time management skills you got there then. Please continue making the best use of your time.siNkarma86—Expert Sectioneer of Misplaced Pages
00:11, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Part of the problem on the article is the power struggle between pro and con Zeitgeist people. If you look at the article history say from a year ago or two years ago you will see that. There are several editors here though that just want a neutral presentation of the group. Also people troll each other on the page especially recently. Its better if that stops now and just editing and discussion take place. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:15, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe it would be fair to make a clear distinction between the first movie and the actual cause of the movement. TZM has stated many times that the first movie, regardless of how accurate or inaccurate it is, does not represent the real objectives and train of thought of the organization. Focusing on conspiracy theories is counter productive to a sane discussion of wether the proposal of the movement is feasable or not.

The objective of TZM is the same as The Venus Project Activist Movement which spawned after the TZM and TVP spilt. An Open Source society, without politics or supposedly equal exchange, the free market. Nowhere in the first zeitgeist film is that goal mentioned or laid out, it simply dismantles religion, says 9/11 is an inside job, and talks about bankers using the social structure to swindle more wealth into their hands. Only at the end does it say the one line "humans re-discovering their relationship to nature" ONE LINE. Aeon-characteristic (talk) 23:55, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you think that it is us that is formulating the story line in the article about Zeitgeist things? That is not so though. We are merely reporting on what is reported about it by what are thought to be reliable sources, so we have no 'dog in the hunt' for the larger and smaller meanings of the whole thing. That is an important point. It serves your cause much much more to have a neutral presentation article that has no baggage of your interpretation. Unless you are someone that is published in credible sources on this subject your opinion has zero value if I can say that without sounding insulting. We are just worker bee's here making some information for the public, volunteers that for whatever reason have nothing better to do. That information can not reflect the F.A.Q.'s material from Zeitgeist, pro Zeitgeist sentiment by members such as yourself etc. It has to be given at an encyclopedic level or quality. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:25, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Is it okay when reliable sources lie intentionally/unintentionally? For example the quote where Peter Joseph says "moved away from" regarding the 9/11 attacks, he actually said (moreorless) "I've said enough regarding false-flag terrorism" which is different enough. Peter Joseph says this awhile back on a TZM radio show, of course only members would know that. But since an apparently "reliable source" says that's what PJ says, it must be true. My point is journalism is biased enough that you can select "reliable sources" so if a person wants they can paint a picture of a group in a negative way regardless of what's the reality or neutral.

Moving passed the "Zeitgeist: The Movie" false affiliation:

The "Forest boy" reference is a blatantly lying, slanderous, biased, article yet for some reason is treated as a "reliable source", which seems needed to get the irrelevant "Political movement" label put on TZM. So sources which obviously lie are reliable? The answer would be Yes to people who hate TZM. taking the first quote of the forest boy article:

"Robin Van Helsum, the Dutchman dubbed 'Forest Boy', who conned Berlin police into thinking he was a juvenile runaway, was inspired to travel to Germany by the teachings of the Zeitgeist movement that aims to destroy market capitalism."

TZM started globally, not in Germany, and TZM does not have a physical location, Office, Phone Number, like Scientology, it's more like an educational hub. It started in the united states but is designed to be global, (since Peter Joseph set up the global website where he is).

TZM doesn't plan on "destroying market capitalism", it views free or equal exchange as a fraud, a gaming strategy based on deception, like a wealth/gambling addiction which at the cost of someone's empathy, the market encourages a con-artistry. Again different since the quote seems to say "TZM want a violent political revolution".

TZM doesn't plan on "teaching" since the hallmark of TZM actually is self directed learning, the truth is realised, not told.

(unless reliable sources can prove brainwashing techniques are used to force people into becoming members of TZM) they put on lecture events (Z-DAY), but the content is realised by members to be true,

So this article in a slanderous way says: "People who join TZM end up to be crazies, this Forest Boy article proves it". Lastly about me needing to publish credible sources before what I say has any value, that's an authoritarian attitude, some slanderous article can say: "every TZM member is a crazy forest boy" and get away with it since their a "reliable source" yet I get no say in the matter. okay then. So if you're saying sources that blatantly lie are "reliable" well the forest boy reference and the false affiliation to the first zeitgeist film should be kept.Aeon-characteristic (talk) 01:16, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines regarding sourcing and content have been arrived at by consensus, through discussions involving thousands of contributors over years of debate. We aren't going to change them on the say-so of random TZM supporters. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:57, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

How is supporting blatant lies arrived at by consensus? The implication by the biased forest boy article is the typical trolling by TZM hate blogs, the idea that I'm a member of a cult, dangerous group, crazies etc. This wouldn't be outright slandering if it was actually supported by real evidence of cult behaviour, brainwashing techniques, separation from family, friends when they enter the cult etc. Sourcing biased articles is not true evidence. Supporting outright lies is anything but neutral.Aeon-characteristic (talk) 04:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I very much doubt that anyone thinks that TZM is 'dangerous'. Rather, their problem is that the media etc don't consider them of any real significance. With the result that there is little to source this article from. And according to Misplaced Pages policy, we go with what we've got, regardless of the objections of TZM supporters. Misplaced Pages policies are not open to negotiation here, any more than they are in any other article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:25, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

And incidentally, though it makes no real difference, given Misplaced Pages policies, I'd personally find it easier to be sympathetic to your arguments if you didn't resort to ridiculous exaggerations. Our article says nothing about 'brainwashing techniques', 'separation from families' or 'crazies'. Maybe a little less paranoia, and a little more rational analysis might encourage people to take your group seriously? Just a thought... AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:42, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Naturally if you check the Jared Lee Loughner TV piece it tries to link the zeitgeist movement to the apparent influence zeitgeist the movie had on him. This is what the "sources" say, when serious violence is actually caused by complex social stress, the idea that a movie will just brainwash someone to do violence is like an idea for a movie.

So besides the exaggerations, there are people who think TZM are dangerous and do have an agenda to slander the group. There's a stream of hate/trolling youtube videos against the movement. And naturally, libertarians hate us since I don't advocate "self-ownership" since such philosophies ignore natural law.

I've been called every negative label in the book, theosophist, Nazi, Communist, and the labels are designed to distract away from the message being conveyed by the movement.Aeon-characteristic (talk) 12:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

TZM's inability to communicate its message is of no relevance to this article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:06, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

It is if someone writes about that though and points out the who, why and what of that. If the movement crashes and burns then in a postscript to the group we can include that if its cited.

Probably you believe Aeon, in some vague term you refer to as 'natural law', but really that is a conjecture of opinion that Peter Joseph and crew have somehow discovered the real thing from the not real thing and that if we all joined up and boycotted the system that would reform it. So, for the same reason we can not allow the Ayn Randians to try and sell their spiel we can not let others do the same. That goes for Mormons or Flat Earth Society, people that believe the moon trip was fake etc. When you say, There's a stream of hate/trolling youtube videos against the movement. And naturally, libertarians hate us since I don't advocate "self-ownership" since such philosophies ignore natural law. Just making a wild guess that you are a true believer in Zeitgeist and its stuff. That is o.k. but perspective is important here. The guy that shot those people, Jared, was into Zeitgeist yes, but he was probably influenced by all kinds of things also. The movie was reported to have an effect on him, not because it incited violence maybe but because he felt terrible and depressed about his life and society. If anything most people think Zeitgeist is funny, like this video, which I do not think is hateful or trolling I doubt if there is a conspiracy about the article among editors to enforce the article any which way. I can tell you the article does a very good job of getting down to what Zeitgeist is and does and I would think members such as yourself would greatly appreciate that since we have done the work of presenting your group fairly. Earl King Jr. (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

This movement lost most sane people when they espoused their 9/11 was an inside job rhetoric...I say lost broadly since there is no evidence there have ever been adherents...no list of members, no HQ or base of operations...all in the cloud and from what I can see, a bunch of bullshit and this website is being duped into sponsoring webpages as advertising platform for this bullshit based on vague "it's notable" arguments.--MONGO 15:30, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Its a pity we can not consolidate the articles into one or two. Maybe a 'movement' article, and a 'movie' article. The Zeitgeist supporters threw a monkey wrench into that by throwing up barriers of Wiki technical issues of this and that and some sandbox which was a way of not letting anything happen. As to Mongo saying the movement is fake, no I think it is more or less real, but also it was manipulated into existence by one person that was a Wall Street insider and Madison Ave type or that is his employment history anyway. I removed most of the redirects to the plea for money donation pages that were in the article previously. It is a joke when they kept putting those up about ordering the DVD and without your support story line on their website about making the new Peter Joseph movie possible is not possible without your support. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Re. The Zeitgeist supporters threw a monkey wrench into that by throwing up barriers of Wiki technical issues of this and that and some sandbox which was a way of not letting anything happen. - First of all, quit conflating me with editors that are openly/assumably TZM supporters. You wailed like a little girl when the boot was on the other foot, and I've not made a single edit that would warrant that assumption. All I have tried to do recently is protect this article from inappropriate blanking. Follow the rules, garner consensus and voila! Don't blame others for your inability to present a compelling argument. (And remember that WP:BLP applies on talk pages too.) nagualdesign 01:14, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Could you refrain Nagual from calling names as in comparisons of editors to little girls. I suppose you think that is clever but really it is rhetoric dumbness. A redirect is not inappropriate blanking so maybe you do not care except to flame. It had support to do it also until the Zeitgeist meat puppets and socks and members went bonkers along with some others that seemed to be angry about something. Earl King Jr. (talk) 01:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Peter Joseph's Movies are not the movement, the TZM lectures can display what TZM promotes and there's now tonnes of lectures and 40min Q&A events etc, that are held to express what the movement is about. Addendum and Moving Forward yeah they display what the movement is about too, but that doesn't mean only those 2 films comprise what the movement is about.

There's also "WILL WORK FOR FREE", an independent film by a TZM activist which covers technological unemployment. Does it have a third party article about it? Yes it does.

http://www.alloaadvertiser.com/news/clackmannan-tulliallan-kincardine/articles/2014/02/04/487267-clackmannan-man-produces-first-documentary-will-work-for-free/

The message being conveyed by TZM is simple, the free market, or any form of trade is violence. 'Natural Law' is not a vague term, that's like saying "gravity is vague, I think I can walk on the walls and disobey those laws". It's the legal system and the free market laws which are vague since they're made up pseudosciences, utopian concepts of perfect exchange. Instead of hot air opinions like TZM = the Flat Earth society as exaggerated before, look an article on TZM by a cult expert. The commentary on Jared Lee Loughner is obvious, "Zeitgeist: The Movie" or "TZM" impacts people and therefore makes them into violent crazies. This isn't said outright, it's implied with vagueness. Punishment or a negative social environmental brings out violence, and market competition is the greatest perpetrator of violence. There's no HQ because TZM isn't a cult, like critics want it to be, we host events, that's it. TZM Manipulated into existence? Really? Well I don't feel manipulated, as I said (or exaggerated) before, sources which prove TZM uses brainwashing techniques are used instead of slander.

Aeon-characteristic (talk) 01:03, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Political Movement?

How is TZM a political movement? They do not advocate change via the common political means and publicly condemn the electoral system. By their own self-description, they are a "social" movement and appear to fit that criteria more than anything. Bizarrely, the opening paragraph of the article even confirms this. Is reads: "The Zeitgeist Movement argues that a religious or political ideology should not be the basis for societal operations but instead the scientific method should be employed to develop a society based on collaboration and a balance of technology and nature."

Therefore, they can't be political if this line is stated, in the traditional sense. The opening paragraph is self-contradictory. Why not change it so "Social" JamesB17 (talk) 18:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages articles are based on published reliable sources. That TZM for some bizarre reason attempts to suggest that a movement with the stated objective of fundamentally transforming the global economic system (amongst other things) isn't involved in politics is of no relevance to this article - after this 'transition' takes place (and pigs fly) Misplaced Pages will no doubt redefine the English language to suit the new techno-overlords, but until then, our article will use words as we expect readers to understand them, and not to suit the TZM agenda. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:07, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Andy! AGF!!!!--MONGO 19:17, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Andy. I'm glad to finally see that you truly do dislike TZM and hence you are have no interest in being neutral. Great characteristics for an editor. Read: "The Zeitgeist Movement argues that a religious or political ideology should not be the basis for societal operations but instead the scientific method should be employed to develop a society based on collaboration and a balance of technology and nature."

Rub those too-close-together eyes and read it again. Maybe 2-3 times if you need to. See the problem? JamesB17 (talk) 19:20, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Nope. This is an encyclopaedia - it is written for the comprehension of readers, not for the benefit of political movements. TZM can argue all they like that they aren't involved in politics, but both common sense and reliable sources say otherwise - and we aren't going to mislead our readers just to satisfy TZM's weird compulsion to redefine the English language. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:30, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I see. so they are a "political movement" that does not condone the use of politics to solve problems. Got it!!! LOL JamesB17 (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Hey, plenty of people have been killed in the name of religions that condemn violence, most capitalist countries structure themselves to prevent the poor from getting richer, and most communist countries continue to maintain a division of wealth and status. What large groups of people say and what they do rarely overlap. And if a group says they don't advocate setting themselves on fire, but every single member has been hospitalized for dousing themselves in kerosine and lighting up, what are they going to be notable for? Ian.thomson (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

And? JamesB17 (talk) 20:46, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Just a note, I blocked JamesB17 for a week for the personal attack on Andy above, after I'd warned him last month that further insults on talk pages and edit summaries would result in a block. This is following on a previous 3-day block for edit-warring. -- Atama頭 21:29, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

I have collapsed the above due to the continual repetition of the same unconvincing argument over and over, preaching, some potential issues ahead with WP:CIVIL, and generally not following WP:NOTFORUM. I will have caught some comments meant to stick to the guidelines in the crossfire, and I apologize for that, this just seemed like the best course of action to me. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:30, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

"They, they, they" and citing

A recent edit I made trying to bring neutrality to the article got reversed pretty quickly and I think it's totally unnecessary. If we look at the greenpeace page for instance it starts with the words 'Greenpeace is a' not 'Greenpeace describes itself as a' https://en.wikipedia.org/Greenpeace, a similar case for pirate party international, go check it out https://en.wikipedia.org/The_Pirate_Party. Secondly the first sentence states that it was created by Peter Joseph, the films were, the movement was not, I will however accept you keeping this in if you can cite it. I'm neutral on TZM, but I'm fed up of seeing this, quite frankly, sad behaviour on here. Be fair, IT IS a grass roots, sustainably advocacy movement.

This article on TZM is well referenced for the most part and have no qualms with it, but it should be neutral and state what IT IS and should also not contain that it was formed by someone it was not (prove it if you can, otherwise don't put it in). As for the edit I did which includes 'which focuses on science and technology rather than monetary and political interests' this is simply taken from the same wikipedia page on TZM but on a different language wikipedia so I believe it should be included to provide background to casual (none sad people with nothing better to do that constantly watch wikipedia pages being updated.)

I think this edit war can stop if it's brought in line in terms of formatting with other pages on wikipedia that talk about groups, but if you want edit wars, feel free to continue your sad little lives editing wikipedia pages to show a group of people in a negative light. You can't get time back and you're not getting any younger :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zikalify (talk • contribs) 22:09, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Since it is abundantly clear from the sources cited in the 'history' section that Peter Joseph, producer on the 'Zeitgeist' movies, and frequent spokesperson for the Zeitgeist Movement, was responsible for the creation of the Movement, your edit has been reverted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:20, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

As for the matter of "describes itself as" versus "is", I would have agreed with Zikalify that it's an unnecessary expression of doubt, but a cursory search gave 2 good examples; The UK Independence Party ... describes itself in its constitution as a "democratic, libertarian party", and The Labour Party is a centre-left political party in the United Kingdom. Given that UKIP have an uncertain reputation, with sources describing them in a variety of ways depending on their own political POV, the editors seem to have settled on an undeniable truth. On the other hand, Labour have a consistent reputation in that almost everyone, themselves included, would describe them as centre-left, so the editors have simply found a reliable source to verify it. Different subjects require different approaches. nagualdesign 23:39, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Views Subheading Needs A Little Sumthin' Sumthin'

It appears odd that the article in its current form takes only three sentences to describe the entire social movement. Adding what could be looked at as an inflammatory quote from Peter Joseph which adds nothing to the views of the movement takes up more article space than the three sentences mentioned earlier. As I am new to this sort of thing, how would more content be added? There is now a book "The Zeitgesit Movement", which looks really more like of a collection of essays, that could be an excellent source for more flesh on the bones, so to speak. Without more, the article fails to define the movement as well as it does the controversy which apparently surrounds it. A good start. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.223.27.25 (talk • contribs) 00:27, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The book you mention is not notable because its published by the group itself, Peter Joseph and really is just a format for them to say what they please. Part of the issues with the article are that very little has been written about them because there is not a lot of mainstream interest in them. In other words we have already located the very few sources that are reliable about people writing on the subject and they are in the article now. Maybe in the future someone will write more articles about them or something else will happen with them that will give them more coverage that is not sourced to their own writing. So, we can not use their self published stuff because of those reasons. It is too primary in nature, they are writing about themselves and that is not really perspective on the group but just them saying what ever. Earl King Jr. (talk) 00:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The book may be unnotable as a source for citing from, but should still have a mention of publication. Only in this context will it receive proper critical review and examination by a large majority of people. Unless of course this site believes in a closed and censored world? Dlordmagic (talk) 07:58, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Add TZM Challenge to the page

Dear Editors,

I just went through TZM Challenge and feel that its a section that must be added here. Here are some links that talk about that challenge: ,

Please share your views.

Thanks, Codenamefirefly (talk) 05:42, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

No. Misplaced Pages isn't a platform for the promotion of TZMs publicity stunts. Unless and until this 'challenge' gets meaningful coverage in credible third-party published sources, it does not merit inclusion in our article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:48, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Andy is correct. Dbrodbeck (talk) 10:20, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Reception

Some recent tagged aspects in the reception section of the article make it clear that the beginning of that section is not so good . That area is the only area remaining from the original article from a year or more ago and it has never looked right. It is the laundry list of newspaper or internet news about Zeitgeist being this or that etc. It might be better just to remove that beginning part or edit the papers out or take actual quotes or summations from those sources rather than just listing them. Most of those citations are used multiple times in the article anyway so its doubtful that it would really lose anything if the beginning few sentences with that list of papers was removed or reedited a lot. Earl King Jr. (talk) 08:00, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

It may well need attention, but removing it entirely wouldn't be appropriate - we need to include third-party commentary on TZM (positive and negative) in the article. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:24, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

/* Reception */ Its pointless to have a list of sources when nothing is actually attributed. All of those sources are used elsewhere in the article anyway. That part of the article has never been right. At least now it makes some logical sense without throwing a bunch of stuff up against a wall. It was all tagged for either fixing or removal and removal is probably a better course since it was not put together well from the beginning. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:13, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Not true Earl and any editor can check the article history. There were only 2 tags in the section that needed to be fixed. Here's proof if anyone is interested (please read the edit summary). -- I've put the material back in place as it summarizes some key aspects of the organization, both positive and negative. I would appreciate help in figuring out which of the 3 sources were used for the tagged material. Thanks. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 10:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

No doubt you would appreciate that but maybe you could have figured that out before adding the list of news groups that somehow have mentioned Zeitgeist things. Earl King Jr. (talk) 10:51, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

What??? You did a wholesale removal of material when all that was needed was some research. Please help us fix the tags. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 11:33, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Neutral edits

An editor expressed concern that a recent edit might not be neutral. This seems odd because in the previous edit he used the same article to make a quote so had no problem with the article. He refers to Jew-baiting, that term as not being neutral, but the other editor did not coin the term Jew-baiting in regard to the first movie, the source that SomeDifferentStuff uses, uses the term. So to balance the article just a statement of the many bodies involved in the 'movement' is not really that descriptive while leaving out the critical perspective of the reliable source. The recent edit also gets at some other issues that are good to bring out now in the article for perspective. Again cited material. This is a reliable, well written source for perspective One of only several in the article. Earl King Jr. (talk) 11:28, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems ok by me. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:57, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Reception section - Michelle Goldberg neutrality problem ("Jew-baiting", etc)

Earl King Jr. recently added this material to the Reception section: -- She went on to say: "Most members, particularly the new ones, are probably unaware of the Jew-baiting subtext of the documentary that launched their movement. Many were genuinely baffled in 2009 when a German social networking site, studiVZ, banned Zeitgeist groups because of their implicit anti-Semitism. Others seem a bit embarrassed by the first Zeitgeist; they’ll often say it’s “irrelevant”—one of TZM’s favorite epithets—because it came out before the movement got started. But no one is disavowing it, and so a growing global movement of tech-savvy idealists continues to promote a work of far-right paranoia. (my bolding)

This addition violates neutrality in 2 ways. First, that amount of material clearly violates WP:Weight by the size of the addition. Tablet magazine is a fairly obscure source and doesn't deserve more weight than everything else in the section; using it as a source in the article is not a problem, but the way that it is being used is. The other neutrality violation is that before he made this addition, that section already mentioned antisemitism, and from the same source, by stating, "and covertly anti-Semitic conspiracy theories", which is still in the article. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Yup - it seems undue to me to be repeating the same allegation from the same source twice. Laying it on with a shovel isn't 'neutrality'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:49, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

On the fence for me....on one hand it is a modest importance source and bloggish, on the other, none of the sources are that great really. But it does fit since much of the 9/11 conspiracy theory bullshit is based in "Jew-baiting" nonsense and that is what this "movement" espouses...at least historically.--MONGO 16:12, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Given that the article expressly states that most TZM members were "probably unaware of the Jew-baiting subtext of the documentary that launched their movement", it is difficult to see how it could be cited for an assertion that they 'espoused' Jew-baiting. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:16, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Whatever....hugs and kisses.--MONGO 16:35, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Removed the section header that for some reason someone put on. The discussion should not veer off if same discussion with too many separate talk page headings, unneeded.

So, no problem it is now only referencing antisemitic once instead of twice . Too much valuable information there to toss, plus consensus is divided. No doubt many Zeitgeist supporters have come to the page and said exactly what M. Goldberg is saying they say even though that is neither here nor there for a talk page it is a good source. Earl King Jr. (talk) 23:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gagFoqkepRs&feature=youtube_gdata
2. http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/uploads/upload/file/24/tzmchallenge.pdf

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