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Amish

The Amish are pretty well fitted into the a-caps model (or close enough, like Iceland). It needs some mention here (and probably there(. Here are some links (not all notable, but a starting point): (*) (possibly synthesis()(Lihaas (talk) 20:44, 11 March 2014 (UTC)).

Unless you can find self identifications of those people under "anarchocapitalism" clearly that should not go here.--Eduen (talk) 01:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Relationship with anarchism in lead

The suggestion that anarcho-capitalism is not always seen, especially by anarchists, as being a part of anarchism proper is uncontroversial and well sourced. The nature of the relationship between anarcho-capitalism and anarchism as a whole is a key issue and relates to the fundamental definition of the terms. It is also documented throughout the main body, including in its own section. Despite those three points, one editor has taken to repeatedly and unilaterally removing reference to it in the lead, including again just now, in a blind-revert edit that also blanked content and sources from the main body. WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:WEIGHT are basic WP policies and the WP:LEAD guideline is also quite clear that the lead summarises the body. The idea that that principle of concise overview and explanation is not a "valid reason" for including this point in the lead or that to do so would be equivalent to mentioning creationism in the evolution lead is somewhat odd and certainly not a justification for removing sourced content. N-HH talk/edits 13:51, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

If it's a concise overview, why do none of the other anarchism articles have such a thing? After all, there have been massive infights between, say, Bakunin and Proudhonian anarchists. But the ledes of the articles of the respective ideas they espoused don't have such a concept in them as you're trying. Why is that? Could it be that you're just attempting disruptive editing to make a point? Sure looks that way. Until you perform the same "service" for all anarchism articles, you have nothing upon which to stand. Nothing.

Further, if it is, as you say, a concise overview--why does the lede of evolution not mention anything about "the controversy"? It's mentioned in "social and cultural responses", but not the lede. Funny that. You'd think that if the lede was a "concise overview", that "the controversy" would be mentioned. But it's not. In fact, the "social and cultural responses" section is the "concise overview" of "the controversy", and links to other, fuller pages about it. Just as is warranted here. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 22:34, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

None of that addresses the questions or justifies your blind reverts, which have removed sourced material from the body as well as references to it the lead. Reference to other pages, whether about individual anarchists or wholly unrelated topics, are irrelevant to the point at hand, as is the suggestion that an improvement cannot be made on one page unless and until a purportedly equivalent change is made on every other article (and, just to humour you, of course followers of Proudhon and Bakunin disagree but neither has the fundamental and widely acknowledged definitional issue that we have here). Even though you seem to have been battling on this and related points for years against a succession of people who disagree with you, you have yet to come up with a convincing argument for your position or to demonstrate that you understand wikipedia policies or practice. Your flinging around the accusation of being disruptive against others is the icing on the cake. N-HH talk/edits 08:11, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

It actually does both address your "questions" and justifies the reverts. Please remember that disruptive editing to make a point is against Wikipolicy. As such, your edits were removed. If you do not like it: do not use disruptive editing to make a point. It will not be allowed. References on other pages are completely relevant to the point, as there's no valid reason to single out one specific article for the "treatment" you and a few others would like. You and those like you have yet to come up with a single convincing argument otherwise, and that you would try to evade that salient point is quite telling. Now would you like to attempt to justify your special "treatment" of this article? Remember: the lede of evolution does not, in any way, mention "the controversy", ID, or creationism. Looks like you have your work cut out for you. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Er, no, disruptive editing is a description rather obviously more accurately applied to the repeated unilateral removal – from both the body and lead – of well sourced, relevant and significant material, especially when at least two editors recently, and many more previously, clearly favour its inclusion in some form or other. I have no particular "point" to prove, while you have offered no justification for removing the material other than vague statements about not liking it as a "treatment" and vague assertions about what a wholly unrelated page with wholly different issues – and where WP:FRINGE applies, as it clearly does not in the same way here – might or might not do. The burden is on you to explain why such sourced and prima facie relevant material, which is commonly found in third-party analysis of anarcho-capitalism and related terminology, needs to be deleted with extreme prejudice.

The idea that this page should not, in the section entitled "Anarcho-capitalism and other anarchist schools", mention the widely recorded fact that other schools do not even consider it to be anarchism at all or that the page should suggest in the lead, without qualifiction at all, that it is a form of anarchism (eg through the side-bar and alternative names) without some reference to that significant debate is nonsensical as well as a rather obvious breach of WP:WEIGHT, WP:NPOV and WP:LEAD. N-HH talk/edits 14:05, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it fits what you did perfectly. No other anarchism page has such. It has no bearing on anarchocapitalism at all. There's no valid reason for it to be there. None. Putting it in is a breach of NPOV and LEAD as well. If it is not, then clearly "teach the controversy" MUST be included in the same for evolution. But it isn't. And there's a good reason: it's not the place for such, nor has it any bearing. Similarly, the idea of anarchocapitalism and other forms of anarchism are not germane to the lede. At all. Nor does it have any bearing. At all. That you are trying desperately to ignore those salient facts is telling.

Like it or not: you won't get to push your POV, try to make a point, or anything like that. You have offered no valid reasons for your inclusions. Offer some if you can. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 23:10, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Right, so one pseudonymous wikipedia editor and zealous self-appointed page-guardian gets to wield their veto and declare that an observation taken from a book described as "An exhaustive and authoritative study which is bound to become the standard account" of anarchism – ie that "few anarchists would accept the 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp since they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice .. even if they do reject the State, might therefore best be called right-wing libertarians rather than anarchists" – is out of bounds for both the lead and the body of this page, and a "massive change", even if the content just briefly reports that assessment rather than opens the page with it or endorses it. My justification for including the observation, as pointed out from the outset, is simply and precisely that it is there in black and white in an authoritative source and is a key issue relating to the classification and description of the subject-matter of the page – which currently is described, without any qualification, from the lead onwards, as definitely being a form of anarchism, such that the issue has already been introduced, but incompletely. Your just ignoring that and continuing to repeat "I don't like this content or 'treatment'" is not a rebuttal of the justification I actually have provided. Who set you up above established sources and authorities and above WP rules on sourced/verifiable content, neutral point of view and due weight?

And please quit with the "POV" nonsense. It is not "a breach of NPOV" to note such differences in opinion, if significant enough; indeed, it's a breach not to of course. And, as noted, I have no underlying point to prove or "POV" to "push" here. By contrast, I'm not sure the same can be said for someone using a username that appears all over the internet posting on various Austrian and anarcho-capitalist boards with a rather transparent point of view and agenda.

As for other pages, I can only repeat that it doesn’t matter what they do and that the evolution example is particularly off-beam, as the issue there is about a substantive dispute of fact and how much weight to give to fringe controversy. Here, we are talking about a relatively subjective and non-marginal difference of opinion about categorisation and description. And if you insist on debating this in terms of other pages, here are some that are at least vaguely comparable and in some cases directly relevant, where the lead - and this is not just about the lead of course anyway, something you've been neatly sidestepping – does indeed note equivalent contention and debates about taxonomy and/or classification: Red panda, Koala, Liberal Democratic Party of Russia and, er, National Anarchism.

I'm not sure you could get every single argument, and the burden of justification, more back to front than you have here. But that's WP politics pages for you, policed as they often are by the Lone Warrior of Truth who knows better than everyone else trying to contribute and than published authorities and writers and prepared to edit-war endlessly over it. When I have time I'll RFC this or bring in outside eyes somehow. No one here gets to own a page and repeatedly blind-revert entirely reasonable – and hardly extensive – sourced additions like this, even if they don't personally like them. N-HH talk/edits 13:35, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I notice that for all of your words you failed to justify what you want to be included. Please stop vandalizing the page. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 21:04, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I haven't edited it for several days, precisely because I'd rather avoid the edit war you seem to be happily engaging in currently with a different editor or editors and would rather rely instead on "words" to convey points – none of which you have explicitly responded to, let alone rebutted, in the stonewalling above. Plus the edit adding the content in question, whether made by me or anyone else, is rather obviously not vandalism. Equally, while I am aware that I have "failed to justify" the content in your eyes, that is not the same thing as actually failing to justify it. Not that it should really be necessary anyway – the idea that an observation about the relationship between anarcho-capitalism and most other anarchist currents, sourced from one of the leading published overviews of anarchism as well as to other sources, is appropriate for a section titled "Anarcho-capitalism and other anarchist schools" would be obvious to most people, one would have thought. Also entirely appropriate is a brief reference to the issue in the lead in turn, given that: that entire section exists; it is a salient point re categorisation/description; and WP:LEAD rather explicitly states that the lead should "summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies". N-HH talk/edits 17:05, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Then CLEARLY "teach the controversy" should be in the lede for evolution. It's a very prominent controversy. But it's not in the lede. So clearly: You. Are. Wrong. And yes: bringing up other articles is perfectly fine when you quote from an article about wikipolicy. Why? Because that applies to ALL articles. So please don't try to handwave away that "teach the controversy" is not in the lede for evolution, as you will have no leg to stand on. You have failed to justify your additions (which are solely about whatever hate you have for capitalism). Please stop introducing your non-neutral point of view into the article. And as for an edit-war: you're the one reverting under different IPv6 addresses. Not me. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 01:04, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

WTF? I have not accused you of edit-warring – against yourself – from the IP addresses but using your own account, which you are, with a third party. And, no, the IP addresses are not me: they are US-based AT&T addresses. Jesus. And quit banging on about the evolution page, which has nothing to do with anything here, and making convoluted leaps of logic based on that. As for your bizarre assertions that this is about the "hate" I supposedly have for capitalism, and the suggestion that including content that reflects real-world views as recorded in reliable sources is not neutral, words fail me. This has nothing to do with my views on anything. N-HH talk/edits 15:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

The evolution page has everything to do with here, since you cited a wikipedia policy WHICH AFFECTS ALL PAGES. Do you not get that? The page explains how the lede is supposed to work, and that means FOR ALL PAGES. If you don't like that fact--not my problem. Can't do anything about it. Host. Petard. Your own. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 21:59, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I have absolutely no idea what any of that is meant to be saying or what it has to do with any of the points raised here. N-HH talk/edits 22:03, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

And as for "edit-warring", unless you're still labouring under the delusion that all these different US-based IPs are actually me, you're surely aware that you are currently up to ten knee-jerk reverts in a month, against what may well genuinely be a range of other editors? By contrast, I have made a total of three edits to the actual page in that period, while trying to explain to you on this talk page, in often extensive and reasoned detail – which you have never directly responded to in kind – what should be obvious anyway about this content. The last post above of yours is a shining example of the limitations, to say the least, of your responses. As noted previously, you do not own this page. N-HH talk/edits 17:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

RfC on Stefan Molyneux

An RfC has been opened at Talk:Stefan Molyneux - The RfC question is "Should Molyneux be called a "philosopher" (without qualification) in the lede of this article?" -- Netoholic @ 17:14, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

RfC: should the page note in more detail the contention around including anarcho-capitalism as a form of anarchism?

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Politics, government, and law When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

An edit, and now a later variation of it, that includes more detail on the fact that most anarchists and much academic analysis question the classification/inclusion has been repeatedly reverted by a single editor. There has been discussion on this in the section above. In essence there are two parts to the edit and two issues to look at:

• A: Should the point be expanded, with references, in the section "Anarcho-capitalism and other schools", eg through the current proposed wording or some variation of it: "Anarcho-Capitalism is not usually recognized as a variety of anarchism by traditional anarchists, who would instead view it as a form of right-wing libertarianism, as anarchism has historically been anti-capitalist and concerned with social and economic equality"?
• B: Should a brief summary of the point, as referenced in that section, be included in the lead? N-HH talk/edits 18:19, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Survey

• Yes re both A & B. The content itself is well sourced. The point also appears in The Routledge Companion to Social and Political Philosophy, as well as the books currently cited in the edit itself. It is verifiable information, which is included in multiple reliable and authoritative sources, and a significant point of dispute within the classification and definition of anarchism. The fact that there is such a dispute is not controversial. Not mentioning the issue – the lead and much, though not all, of the body avoid it currently – not only misleads through omission but is a breach of NPOV. As for the lead/point B, it needs to be noted there, however briefly, as it goes to the definition of the topic. The fact that we have a section, indeed a whole separate article, on the relationship between these two concepts also suggests it is significant enough to include in the lead, which currently asserts and assumes, without qualification, that anarcho-capitalism is, uncontroversially, regarded as a form of anarchism. N-HH talk/edits 18:19, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• No to all. You've failed to make any sort of valid points. You need to make edits to every single lede for every single idea that has controversies in order for your edits to have merit. And please stop misleading people that there is a misleading by omission and breach of NPOV; there isn't. The article in no way asserts and assumes what you say it does. Ergo, you are lying--and no, that is not a personal attack. Since the article clearly doesn't say what you say it does, and since you have to have read it to make whatever claims you are making lest you not have any clue, it's clear that you are deliberately not being truthful. Why is that? Why did you lie? You know that anyone can look at the article and see that what you have written does not comport with what the article says--so why lie? - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 11:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

The only specific point made against inclusion posted in the current discussion about this seems to be that the Evolution page doesn't mention creationism in the lead. However, this is not just about the lead, and in any event the two cases are utterly different. Creationism is a) a fringe theory that b) disputes the reality of evolution. The dispute here is about classification and terminology, not about the correctness or otherwise of any underlying theories, and nor is the "anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism" stance a fringe view. Far more appropriate analogies, as noted in the previous discussion, can be found in the following pages, where the taxonomic issue is covered both in the lead and the body: Red panda, Koala, Liberal Democratic Party of Russia and, for good measure, National Anarchism and Creation science. N-HH talk/edits 18:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

So you've admitted that you're just trying to marginalize anarchocapitalism. Great. You've just invalidated your entire stance by admitting to trying to introduce a non-neutral point of view to the text. I request the protection be lifted at once so that the NPOV edits can be removed. There will be no further discussion required. - Knight of BAAWA (talk) 11:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Page protection requested

Sorry to see that we have an on-going, albeit slow moving edit war disrupting the article. I've requested page protection. – S. Rich (talk) 00:35, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The article has been fully protected for one month per the request at WP:RFPP. If this RfC reaches a conclusion the protection might be lifted. EdJohnston (talk) 02:37, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

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