Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:07, 30 June 2006

Welcome!

Hello and welcome to Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. The following links will help you begin editing on Misplaced Pages:

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The Misplaced Pages Tutorial is a good place to start learning about Misplaced Pages. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and vote pages using three tildes, like this: ~~~. Four tildes (~~~~) produces your name and the current date. Again, welcome!

--WillMak050389 19:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am always glad to greet new users, and if you have any problems I will always be here to help. --WillMak050389 01:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Nice username.

--SB | T 07:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Excellent guess, and thank you for the pointer to the interesting article, but wrong nonetheless. :) Kickaha Ota 18:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks RE: 3O

Thank you for taking the time to render your 3rd opinion on the Jaguar XK link dispute. --AbsolutDan 22:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Kickaha Ota 00:35, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm very sorry that things got so messy there for you, and that there is now the question of 3RR. As I mentioned at the noticeboard, however, I am convinced that the editor in question was spamming the link. He seemed quite intent on promoting it, and it was an inappropriate link - the definition of spam vandalism. As such, I believe your edits were to remove simple vandalism, which doesn't count towards 3RR. I hope that the admins agree, and that your "record" remains spotless. Please let me know if there's anything I can do --AbsolutDan 22:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I feel bad about the whole incident, but it seems to have been settled. Thank you very much for the kind words. Kickaha Ota 19:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

They were well deserved, your edits in this matter have been nothing but good-faith. Take care --AbsolutDan 19:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Minor edits

Thanks for bringing a sense of neutrality to that nearly unbearable page. Regarding the edit I marked as minor, I didn't see it as major because all I did was move the three references from the first sentence of the intro to the bottom of the intro. Then, I did what you had suggested on the talk page: mention that those references describe the fact that some believe ACIM is authored by satan. I suppose it was the fact that you had mentioned this already on the talk page that made me consider it a non-major edit. And it is certainly the case that I wasn't trying to slip anything by anyone. How could I, seeing that you had already mentioned this topic in the talk page, and the article about satan as a potential source was already available on the page long before I moved it? -- Andrew Parodi 04:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

re WP:30

Thanks for your attention. Intangible 04:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Authorship of A Course In Miracles

Thank you for pledging to call him/her on it when he/she makes unfounded accusations with regard to my interest in those articles. I sincerely did not view it as a personal attack that he/she has too much free time. I'd remove it if I could, but I fear that to remove that statement at this point would only lead to more accusations of me "tampering" with things. -- Andrew Parodi 00:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Categories, etc.

Hi there. Just so you know, if you want to reference a Category without placing the page into said Category, you can place a colon after the square brackets and before the word "Category", like this: ], which displays as Category:User Misplaced Pages. You can do the same thing too images to prevent them from displaying, eg. ] displays as Image:WikiThanks.png. Happy wiki-ing, --Rockero 17:02, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the tip! It's appreciated. Kickaha Ota 17:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What is all you needed to know?

If there is some secret connection between WP and ACIM then I will be more than happy to butt out of this article. Ste4k 17:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I needed to know whether you were willing to put aside your grievances and try to work out a way to make productive changes to the Authorship of A Course in Miracles article. Unfortunately, based on your responses, it appears that you're still too preoccupied with your past grievances for any sort of amicable resolution of the current problem to work. So all I can do is step back and let the process take its course. I have no idea why you think there's some secret connection between WP and ACIM, or why I would be privy to it if there were one, or why you think this issue is relevant to my questions in the first place. Sorry about that. Kickaha Ota 17:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You mentioned that if this problem went to arbitration that I would end up blocked from the articles. You did not mention anything regarding him. What possible reason am I unaware of that would account for arbitrators to allow for his abuse and block me from making edits that were supported directly by policy? Ste4k 18:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't mention him because I was talking to you, not to him. Kickaha Ota 18:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What you said was: "This article has been nominated for deletion. That nomination failed. It was then nominated again. That nomination is in the process of failing again. It seems fairly obvious that the article is going to stick around, regardless of your opinion.". Did you intend to insinuate that I had bad faith about this article? It was not me that nominated the article either of the previous times. And the manner in which you express this, to me says that you consider my opinion unimportant. Is that what you had intended? You repeat it again here as you predict the outcome of arbitration saying, "which will probably wind up in an arbitration that will probably wind up with you getting blocked from the articles." Well thank you for your opinion. It took me nearly a week to get a firm grip on policy and how it relates to guidlines, and so forth. If they are only a bunch of words that don't mean anything, though, then who cares? What a waste of time this was. Ste4k 00:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

No, I most certainly did not say--or imply, or even secretly believe--that you had bad faith about the article. You obviously have a sincere, heartfelt opinion that the subject of the article is not notable and should be deleted. Nor did I say--or imply, or even secretly believe--that your opinion is not important. But Misplaced Pages is a product of consensus; there are other people with opinions of their own, and their opinions are also important. And if your belief that an article should be deleted does not reflect consensus, then it will not be carried out, no matter how heartfelt or sincere it is. It is simply impossible for a project like Misplaced Pages to fully and completely reflect the opinions of all of its contributors, especially when it comes to what material should be included in the first place. If one person deeply and sincerely believes that an article should exist, and one person deeply and sincerely believes that it should not, then someone has to lose; the article cannot simultaneously exist and not exist. And on Misplaced Pages, ties are broken in favor of inclusion; that's why a result of "No consensus" in a debate on deletion means that the article is kept. That's simply the way the project has been set up. And as far as my predictions about the outcome of an arbitration go, I'm not saying that I wish for that to happen; it's simply my prediction of a likely outcome. And if and when an arbitration does occur, I will have no vote and no particular say in the outcome; so my prediction has no force whatsoever. I very much hope that you can find a way to resolve the dispute and avoid arbitration altogether; I would encourage you to take part in formal mediation, where your dispute will be heard by a skilled mediator who's much more familiar with Misplaced Pages than I am and who can help you solve the problem. If you feel frustrated by your unfamiliarity with Misplaced Pages policy, then I would also highly encourage you to contact the Misplaced Pages:Association of Members' Advocates, a group of volunteers who will help you navigate the process and achieve your goals. Kickaha Ota 01:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Why?

-- Note from Kickaha Ota to those viewing this page: The following comment from me was left on user JzG's talk page.

I noticed that you added another proposed issue to the RfM for The Great Authorship of A Course in Miracles Kerfluffle. It's a worthwhile issue, but is it appropriate to modify an RfM after the parties have already agreed to it? It certainly seems appropriate to suggest additional issues to the parties involved, but actually modifying the RfM at that point seems like something that might best be left to the parties and the mediator. (And I admit to being a bit surprised that the parties agreed to the RfM as it was. :) ) Kickaha Ota 14:05, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I just want you to know, that I have only been here maybe two weeks. I can easily forgive not signing a message, but deliberately starting an argument with me about topics I did not wish to discuss, and then point out the conversation afterwards to whomever which simply invited more hateful tripe from Andrew; it was rude, it upset me, it affected my real life. I am not as young as you perhaps, but I can respect my youngers, and in the position that you had assumed to be filling, there was no excuse for what you did. And now I read above that you consider this some sort of game. How the heck am I supposed to know anything about RfM?!? While you were pestering me with all of that you had planned, I was working on what had been agreed on trying to ignore for at least a full day anything to do with ACIM. Ste4k 14:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I certainly apologize if I upset you. Can you please explain in more detail why you feel this way? Let me clear up a few things.

• I was not trying to conceal anything by not signing the RfM notification. If I were trying to conceal my involvement, I would not use my own account, and I would not prominently put my name in the RfM's text.

I don't understand what you mean by conceal something. What I mean to say, is that from my perspective, you have been here quite a bit longer than I have. You know about things that I haven't even the foggiest idea exist. You know about RFM and all of those things and what you say above makes me feel like signing now was foolish and I don't even know why.

Ste4k, you can look at my contribution history and see that we started at pretty much the same time. I am a n00b; my userpage says so. We're both inexperienced with this. Neither one of us has had a chance to fully read Misplaced Pages policies yet, so each of us is going to be more knowledgeable than the other on certain policies, just because they're the ones we happen to have read or been pointed to. Both of us are very unfamiliar with working with other people to edit an encyclopedia. Each of us needs to work very hard to remember that newcomers make mistakes, and that things that newcomers say that don't seem right are almost always due to ignorance or inexperience rather than malice. I have failed several times to remember that during our discussions, and I apologize for that. Kickaha Ota 19:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• I did not deliberately start an argument; I tried to solve an argument already in progress. You filed a Third Opinion request. I provided a third opinion, as you requested. You filed a Request for Comment. I provided comments. For you to twice ask for outside comments regarding this issue, then accuse me of "starting an argument" after responding to your requests, confuses me greatly.
• If you "did not wish to discuss" the topics involved in the dispute, then your filing of a Third Opinion request and a Request for Comments is very puzzling.

I was working on an article that had been discussed in AfD. I had proposed it to be deleted, and it was decided that it was to be merged. I am trying my best to clean up all of this mess in this category. I merged the article and began looking for resources, in the meantime, Andrew had created more files in the category. I was trying as agreed upon to step away from the problem and chill out, be constructive and get some work done on the category. Please see Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Gary_Renard.

Okay, now I understand in more detail where you're coming from, and that's good. But still, when you ask for third parties' comments on a problem, you need to expect that third parties will provide comments on the problem, and that they won't necessarily agree with your own. That doesn't mean that you're wrong; it means that different people can see a problem in different ways, come to different conclusions, and all be perfectly justified in reaching those conclusions. That's particularly true with anything even remotely touching on religion or philosophy. Kickaha Ota 19:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• I do not consider this "any sort of game". I stated an honest opinion -- that after seeing the depth of the ill feelings that seem to be involved here, I was somewhat surprised that both you and Andrew Parodi agreed to the mediation process. I should have said "pleasantly surprised," because I was.
• If you feel that my attempts to resolve the dispute were "pestering", again, I apologize. Again, I can only point out that you asked for outside comments, and that in fact, you did so twice.
• I had no idea that you were unfamiliar with Requests for Mediation. Since you had initiated both a Third Opinion request and a Request for Comment, I assumed that you were familiar with the dispute resolution process. And since you are apparently not familiar with Requests for Mediation, my attempts to steer you to the Misplaced Pages:Association of Members' Advocates seems all the more appropriate in hindsight, since one of their main purposes is to help you become familiar with the process. Kickaha Ota 14:49, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'll make this real clear. I mean what I say, and I say what I mean. I do not play games. I read literally. I do not want any ill feelings between you and me. But I think that you should be much more careful about what your statements imply sometimes. I read the documentation. I try my best to follow what it says to do. I still do not know how severe one should complain, on what topics, nor to whom. It's just a good guess on my part and according to what the documentation says. On one side I see my name being dragged through the mud, the text in my nominations being changed, and my gender purposely being demeaned. And then I am being called someone without AGF. me? So when you say you were surprised that we agreed, it makes no sense to me. I feel like maybe I have been duped. I do not like to play games. If you already know that this course of action is senseless for some reason, then you should be honest and plain and state so. There are TWO issues here. One which I am ignoring, and the other which I am doing my best to concentrate on. Do you understand that? I spoke to you earlier in confidence that it was between me and you. I know that there isn't any privacy here, but calling attention to that conversation, to me, showed bias from you. So later when I read that you are even pleasently surprised, I am thinking again there will be some bias here. But, let me point out to you that I do not think that you read my words carefully. I write very specifically. Your final comments in the closed AfD for that article state that I am in the incorrect venue to be debating what should be content in the article. If you read carefully what I actually said, I said that the whole idea of this court case being "famous" is simply hogwash. There is nothing, nobody, anywhere, that has heard anything about it. And if we are printing that story, we are actually creating fiction about it, urban legend. That is the effect of original research. Try looking up the brand name "ACIM" on Google and read what you see on the first page. Okay? Your following comments is that it is notable. So, I must therefore ask you why? Thanks. Ste4k 16:00, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If you read always read literally, then I'm afraid you are going to find yourself in a great many conflicts that aren't necessary. People in the real world very often don't speak literally. They leave things out because they make assumptions (which may turn out to be wrong) about what other people are aware of or find interesting. They use slang expressions and specialized terms that aren't meant in their literal way. They use jokes or sarcasm to try to change the subject or defuse tension. (Of course, some people also use jokes or sarcasm to cause tension, but neither of us are doing that.) They may simply misspeak, especially when they're pressed for time, emotional, or not paying close attention. If you assume that people always speak literally, especially in an informal setting, then you are very often going to misinterpret people. Misplaced Pages is no different, especially on article and user talk pages, which can be very informal. There are policies to reduce conflicts (like "No personal attacks", which if you recall I brought up very strongly against Andrew, and refused to accept his excuses). But there is no policy or requirement that people always speak literally, or that they don't joke, or that they always fully explain anything that might be unclear. (Heck, if people tried to talk so precisely that there was no room for any misinterpretation, the resulting comments would probably be so long that we'd all need high-speed Internet connections to read the talk pages.) That's why, if someone says something that seems to suggest an insult or an ulterior motive, it's so important to ask rather than assuming the worst.

Again, when I said that I was surprised that you and Andrew agreed, it was not meant in any way to imply bad faith on your part (or Andrew's part, for that matter). Unfortunately, people with deeply-felt disputes often can't resolve them amicably, and sometimes don't even want to resolve them amicably. Heck, look at the archives for the Request for Mediation page; a very large percentage, if not a majority, of mediation requests wind up rejected at the outset because one side or the other, or both, didn't think it would be possible to mediate the conflict, or simply didn't want to mediate the conflict. Even when both parties are sincere, sometimes they simply can't make it past their differences. So when I said that I was surprised that the two of you accepted, I wasn't intending to slight either of you; it was simply a reflection of the fact that mediations often fail. If I wasn't clear about that, it was because I was posting to an administrator's talk page, and I assumed that the administrator would understand what I had in mind. I forgot that other people might be watching the page, and that they might not see the remark in the same way that an administrator would; and I apologize for that.

Talk pages are not private, and my pointing out that conversation doesn't seem to me to be inappropriate. I do apologize for my tone in pointing it out, though; it resembled a judge reading a verdict far more than one user commenting on an equal user's remarks, and that was uncalled-for.

And to explain my comments on the AfD a bit further: The consensus seems to be that the Course itself is notable; "A Course in Miracles" gets about 637,000 Google hits, a quite respectable number. And if the text of a notable work hints that it is the words of such a notable religious figure as Jesus, then a discussion of that claim seems to be an indispensible part of a proper encyclopedic discussion of the Course. I can certainly understand your point of view that the Course itself is not notable and that this aspect of it is particularly not notable; but again, different people with different perspectives can come to different conclusions about the same article and both be justified. Kickaha Ota 19:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages mediation

Thanks for the response. Just to let you know, I have indeed agreed to the mediation, but I have subsequently decided to leave Misplaced Pages. As soon as this issue with that editor (Ste4k, or whatever his name is) is settled, someone else just as obnoxious will come along. It's happened before and it will happen again. Plus, I am back in school and I have a number of other writing projects I should be working on. Misplaced Pages is a distraction for me lately. But thank you for helping with this ugly situation. -- Andrew Parodi 21:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)