Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:43, 1 July 2014

ArbCom has made the singular worst decision in its history. While awaiting word on my appeal to Mr. Wales, I tried to protect some BLPs, but find the current situation (May 2014) unconducive even to that task. The idea that topic bans should be placed on anyone for evidence which they are not allowed to refute or discuss is marginal at best. Sanctions without violation of any policies or guidelines are violative of rational process, and where such sanctions are apparently arbitrary, they reflect WP:Tiptibism -- the belief that because one is able to do something that therefore it is right to do it. I had appealed a topic ban to Mr. Wales, and at the ten month mark, he has given no reply whatsoever.

Well-meaning editors: Please do not edit comments from others on this page. Thank you.

Articles which make "allegations" make bad encyclopedia articles, especially when any sort of POV can be attached thereto. I suggest that articles subject to WP:BLP in any manner which make allegations be strongly constrained.

Note: 'It is now proper to add "homophobe" to any biography as long as you can find 'someone' using that word about the person - I presume this applies to categories as well as WP:BLP no longer protects living people from being labeled with pejoratives.

I find it interesting that an editor who says he is "collegial" would ever have posted anything remotely like:

I have some derogatory and self-created (by him) information that I would like to reveal regarding ***. But, I would like to create a situation where most of the editors that have worked to formulate a quality article are present. Unless *** pushes too much, I will probably wait till closer to the election. (I feel like Sam Spade/Private Detective).

And then, lets just go back to being fellow editors with an extreme dislike for an editor whose name begins with a C and ends in a T.

Sound "collegial to you?

Quote of the day from an editor who seems to regard his own screeds as the epitome of "wit":

Twain is the perennial favorite of intellectual pygmies who believe a trite quote has the power to increase their stature.

I rather think his "wit" speaks for itself pretty clearly.

Some of my essays:

WP:False consensus

WP:KNOW

WP:Advocacy articles

WP:PIECE

WP:Defend to the Death

WP:Midden

WP:Baby and Bathwater

WP:Wikifurniture

WP:Contentious

WP:Sex, Religion and Politics

WP:Editorially involved

WP:Mutual admiration society

WP:Source pH

WP:Sledgehammer

User:Collect/Collect's Law

Happy Collect's Day!

User:Collect has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as Collect's day! For being such a beautiful person and great Wikipedian, enjoy being the Star of the day, dear Collect! Peace, Rlevse 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC) A record of your Day will always be kept here.

For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

And sincere best regards and thanks to you! Collect (talk) 00:09, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

September 2013

The Arbitration Committee has made one of the singular worst decisions in its entire history, finding that a person may be given a broad topic ban for simply having what an arb calls his "general attitude" and without a scintilla of evidence of wrongdoing. And while being told that "bickering" was a blockable offence (where the bickering was opposing this decision!) Thus I say Ave atque vale, which someone is sure to say is offensive.

For my Jewish friends: Lo alecha hamlacha ligmor.

The committee members will, of course, be the topic of an ACE2013 essay here, and I welcome suggestions as to what I ought say about them.

Adios, Adieu, Farvel, Auf Wiedersehen, Dosvedanya, and no real time to say Good-Bye in every language around ... Collect (talk) 12:21, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Collect, I do urge you to reconsider, irresepctive of what I might consider to be the merits (or lack thereof) of the ArbCom decision. Nelson Mandela was wrongly arrested and jailed, but did not give up, and look where he ended up. By running away, you allow them to win, and/or show that they were right. By sticking around, dilligently working on the outside of the prescribed limits, you prove them to be wrong. Perceived injustice is only turned into justice by running away ES&L 17:07, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I am not dead - but I endeavour that this shall be a Pyrhhic victory for those who back such results. When called to task for quoting TR, by a person who apparently disdains any "hard to understand words", then it is fairly clear that Misplaced Pages really has some choices to make, n'est-ce pas? Expect an interesting ACE2013 essay inn this userspace. Collect (talk) 17:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Collect, for reasons completely unrelated to you, I have not been following a great many things on Misplaced Pages lately, including the tea party thing, so I didn't even know you were topic banned. That aside, I'd just like to say that if you leave, I'll miss you. Whatever you do, take care of yourself. Best.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:46, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

For a while, you will be the only person left really protecting BLPs. I dasn't (archaic) edit there because who knows what "broadly construed" means -- I know that some senior (poobahs) apparently do not regard them as a serious issue <g>. It looks from here that "chronophagous" is the single most apt term for a runaway ArbCom. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to assume this is au revoir instead. KillerChihuahua 03:04, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

I had awaited Jimbo's reply to my emails about the appeal before fully departing (I did not participate in any of the Legobot RfC calls which I had usually done, etc.) -- so far, he has not deemed me worthy of a single response at all, and I rather feel that the delay is indicative of his valuation of editors, so - so much for Jimbo. Collect (talk) 21:07, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

You are mentioned in an arbitration case

The Arbitration Committee is currently hearing a case relating to US Politics. The case information page is here. This message is to inform you that evidence has been submitted about your conduct. As a result, the committee is now scrutinising your conduct in this topic area. If you wish to give one, your reply to this evidence must be received by 13 May 2014 if it is to be fully considered by the committee. The evidence is in one or more submissions on this page. You may reply to evidence by posting in a new section on this page. You may also submit your own evidence, subject to the rules imposed on evidence submission (and the 13 May deadline). I must also make you aware that the evidence that has been submitted about your conduct may, in the course of these proceedings, lead to an arbitrator proposing you be sanctioned as part of the committee's final decision for this case. Please contact a committee clerk if you are not sure what this means. Thank you for your attention. For the Arbitration Committee, AGK 08:28, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I trust any arbitrators who proffered evidence in any prior case about me will recuse as is proper. Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:29, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

With "proffered evidence", I assume you are trying to say "drafted decisions". This is part of my responsibilities as an arbitrator, and therefore is not grounds for recusal. Please familiarise yourself with, and then follow, the arbitration policy § Recusal of arbitrators. Thank you, AGK 14:52, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Lurkers kindly note:

For lurkers: was the "proposed decision" including a number of people who had never been a part of the case whatsoever.

shows a reasonably directly personal interaction with me:

You are not a teacher; we are equals. You should not have expected me not to correct what I considered a misunderstanding in the question: that one arbitrator's private approach does not mean the whole committee ignored the workshop and evidence pages. In your question, you wrongly implied we did. You will vote however you like, and I am frankly not interested in changing your mind, but you should at least be honest about why you are opposing me. At the moment, you are not. I will say nothing more on the matter. Regards, (User:AGK) (emphasis mine - it looks like he is saying I am not honest in how I treated him)

and has

You say you are going to evaluate answers in an "impartial manner" and assign values "from 0 to 5 for each answer … In several cases the aim of the question is to get a feeling for the Wikianschauung of the candidate". Could you therefore explain how my seven answers together returned a score of 'one?' ((AGK)

shows the "answers" and I invite lurkers to "grade" them as responses here. Thanks to all. Collect (talk) 14:03, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Lurkers: Iterating: Please grade the answers linked to. Collect (talk) 15:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I would ask you to remove this section, because it contravenes Misplaced Pages policy as at WP:POLEMIC. Thank you, AGK 14:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Who am I "attacking or vilifying"? Whose flaws am I making polemical claims about? Is there "personal information" presented? Is the section "unrelated to Misplaced Pages"? By the way, WP:POLEMIC is not a policy - it is a guideline, and you are quite free to propose the page for deletion at WP:MFD I suppose. Using your "Arb Hat" here, however, does not exactly impress me. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:01, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I am not speaking as an arbitrator; I am asking you to extend the expected level of respect to another contributor. Only you can decide whether or not to do so. AGK 22:09, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Link

You mentioned that my comments were "Is pure drama seeking-- the discussion was on the same page, and readily quite viewable." This is, not surprisingly, not my opinion. I personally feel it shows a certain level for a failure to assume my good faith, but that's fine. I don't particularly care.

But, I did mean what I said quite literally, if there is a discussion about the 2002 source please provide me with a link, because I do not see it. If there isn't, could you please comment specifically about how my sentence is inserting (or interpolating) my own opinion into the source. I copy and pasted the relevant paragraph from the source and my addition into the article. Thenub314 (talk) 14:35, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Please see exactly what was encompassed in the prior discussions. I have avoided "drama boards" and I commend the same position to others. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I had made this comment and request in relation to you at that noticeboard, but as you have not adhered to it, I am not sure if it got lost in the noise (maybe as you do not want to follow that discussion anymore) or if you are not willing to see it through. Would you be willing to adhere to it to help sort the misunderstanding out? Thank you, Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:40, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

You do realize

I think it is pretty clear that the end result will be the general blocking of many from all US politics articles for the next year. I have not had time to put together anything, and likely will not any time soon. My time has been consumed by family for the past 6 months, and that won't be changing anytime soon. I do hope I am wrong, however, about my first sentence. Arzel (talk) 20:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I see that I am correct. RC was clearly going to present his solution regardless of any "evidence", and hear I thought RfU were designed to address concerns. Arzel (talk) 13:36, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Tim Huelskamp

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Talk:Tim Huelskamp. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Misplaced Pages:Feedback request service. — Legobot (talk) 00:00, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

LvMI

Hail and Farewell

This section was not initially intended to be posted -- alas there is a lot of activity among editors seeking to "co-ordinate" evidence, which I find to be a very disturbing type of activity. (and the fact is that WP:BLP is an ongoing struggle for those remaining - just this morning an editor said that if allegations of "racial bigotry" falling in articles covered by the van Mises case were "verifiable" (as being printed), but he fails to note that the tem "contentious claims" well covers allegations of "racial bigotry" as needing strong sources, not just "someone wrote that:)) When such co-ordination exists, the probability increases that such coordinated efforts will have their desired result - to successfully attack the editor about whom the "evidence" is intended by sheer dint of repetition (The "Misplaced Pages gloss" I cite in the evidence).

The following evidence was not "provided by others", therefore the evidence was provided by AGK. The "evidence" is not found in any post on the Evidence page whatsoever:

11) Collect (talk · contribs) has been dismissive of other users' views (e.g. ) and needlessly inflamed tensions with the other disputants

(,

,

,

).

and was posted by AGK as a "finding" in the TPM case. . This was not just "drafting" a decision- it is actively acting as investigator and as prosecutor in a case where the poster also is a judge.

I invite lurkers to weigh in on the "momentous importance" of the evidence, noting no one but AGK had mentioned it, and in context not a single one was offensive to anyone.

With "proffered evidence", I assume you are trying to say "drafted decisions". This is part of my responsibilities as an arbitrator, and therefore is not grounds for recusal. Please familiarize yourself with, and then follow, the arbitration policy § Recusal of arbitrators. Thank you, AGK 14:52, 10 May 2014 (UTC) (AGK)

The section about arbitrator recusal which he referred to directly states:

and is expected to do so where he or she has a significant conflict of interest. Typically, a conflict of interest includes significant personal involvement in the substance of the dispute or significant personal involvement with one of the parties

Which is pretty evident in the case at hand - AGK has had significant personal contact outside normal arbitrator contact with me. If any personal animus is seen, recusal is the only option.

The person then posted:

I am not speaking as an arbitrator; I am asking you to extend the expected level of respect to another contributor. Only you can decide whether or not to do so. AGK 22:09, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Consider - a judge "asks" you to do something. Do you assume he is telling you the truth when he says "this request has nothing to do with the fact I sit in judgment on you"? Really?

Where an arb is directly involved in the production of evidence, in the examination of that self-same evidence, and in the sanctions proposed on the basis of the evidence he himself provided, that is clearly beyond just "drafting" and falls well into "personal involvement."

Beyond that:

was the "proposed decision" for the Tea Party case including a number of people who had never been a part of the case whatsoever.

shows a reasonably direct personal interaction with me completely unrelated to any arbitration proceeding:

You are not a teacher; we are equals. You should not have expected me not to correct what I considered a misunderstanding in the question: that one arbitrator's private approach does not mean the whole committee ignored the workshop and evidence pages. In your question, you wrongly implied we did. You will vote however you like, and I am frankly not interested in changing your mind, but you should at least be honest about why you are opposing me. At the moment, you are not. I will say nothing more on the matter. Regards, (User:AGK) (emphasis mine - it looks like he is saying I am not honest in how I treated him)

and has

You say you are going to evaluate answers in an "impartial manner" and assign values "from 0 to 5 for each answer … In several cases the aim of the question is to get a feeling for the Wikianschauung of the candidate". Could you therefore explain how my seven answers together returned a score of 'one?' ((AGK)

shows the questions and answers from the ArbCom election pages.

On my user talk page the following "suggestion" was made:

I would ask you to remove this section, because it contravenes Misplaced Pages policy as at WP:POLEMIC. Thank you, AGK 14:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: WP:POLEMIC is not a "policy" and, in fact, discourse relating to Misplaced Pages, and especially including evidence is specifically allowed in user space.

From his posts:

_Collect You are not sure whether this is or is not a quote, but no, evidence and workshop pages are never ignored by the committee or by me. despite the fact that is was an exact quote, and one which he appears not to have wanted to read.

People naturally gravitate towards groups that support their own view.

shows a clear desire to categorize editors as "part of a group" which I find to be an abhorrent and misused concept for an arbitrator. Especially as he had classed me as part of a very large "group" in the Tea Party case. And in the case at hand where he sought to label editors as belong to "factions" with which, thankfully, otter arbitrators demurred.

AGK specifically directs our attention to his comments in this thread

To respond to the original point, I will merely say that now arbitration of the dispute has became necessary, it is exceedingly unlikely that we would be able to close the case without any sanctions. Problematic articles inevitably contain disruptive contributors, and disruptive contributors inevitably require sanctions.

I did not say that you misquoted me. I said that you repeated what I said without comprehending it. The point is that this is not a case where "we can sanction someone, so we will". It is a case where "somebody is being disruptive, so we need to sanction them". Either you agree that disruptive editors need to be removed from an article for the good of the encyclopedia, or you think they should stay. If you agree, then we have the same view. If you disagree, well, you must consider your position.

IMO reads as a threat that my "position" on this issue will lead to my being sanctioned. Other parsing of If you disagree, well, you must consider your position. is welcomed.

shows AGK's response to my points about being added only after a "Kill them All" resolution as defeated "I have nothing more to say." I was not added until after the "Kill them all" resolution was downed, was added by AGK, and with the only evidence being from AGK. The evidence phase was already closed, and no opportunity for rebuttal was given whatsoever.

Losing your temper won't help us. Question for you: do you think you have not "needlessly inflamed tensions with the other disputants" or "been dismissive of other users' views" during the dispute discussions? shows a clear case of prejudgment in the first place. Especially since the "evidence" shows nothing remotely like what he "knows" to be the "truth."

AGK in the past, when he was the "investigated party" wrote:

I am displeased at being listed as a party to this case. In the event that this request is accepted (a prospect I make no comment on at this point) and that the final decision involves some variation of the usual "All parties are reminded to act like reasonable adults" remedy, I would be annoyed enough to retire from editing. Doubtless many of the other administrators whose involvement in these disputes is confined to attempts to keep editor conduct in line will be similarly annoyed at having been listed as parties to this request. AGK 22:13, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Yet he lectures me <g>.

AGK is "involved" now. Plain and simple. Both by acts and words.

And I note my agreement with User:KillerChihuahua and many others

:I think no one should have been added after the evidence phase closed, without re-opening the evidence page. I think adding parties after the Workshop was closed is even worse. If you want to close the case, then ban some people individually based on their activities on the "moderated discussion" or the talk page in general or whatever; or reopen the case, or start a new case; I think that would have been a better approach. But adding parties after a case is basically closed except for Arbs is just wrong. Having this "invitation to comment on the talk page of the Proposed decision" does not make up for not having Evidence open and a full case for those listed after the appropriate timeframe. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahua 15:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

With regard to the case now at hand, I find above the dicta from AGK:

Preparation of a formal list of parties will not be required for this case. In similar previous cases, discussion about who are the parties has distracted the committee from resolving the dispute. As long as all editors whose conduct is being reviewed are notified of the case, and made aware in later stages of the case that sanctions may be proposed against them, it does not ultimately matter whether a given editor was formally named as a "party" or not.

to be troublesome at best, and completely at odds with any rational process at worst. Pays your money and takes your choice.

There are many actors in this dispute, and I have been slightly confused by the overlap between this case and previous ones (e.g. Gun control, Tea Party movement). Therefore, it would be exceedingly helpful if someone could provide an overview of the relevant participants in the Arzel 2 RFC (and in related article disputes). Ideally, such an overview would be grouped by 'faction'; for example:

Republican:

• Editor A
• Editor B

Democrat:

• Editor F
• Editor G

Unidentified:

• Editor X
• Editor Y

I would be happy to provide you with an extension to your word count if you supply such an overview in addition to submitting other evidence. Thank you, AGK 12:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Shows an apparent desire to categorize editors and treat them on the basis of what someone asserts to be the truth about them, is violative of privacy, is violative of WP:OUTING and violative of commonsense.

Speaking personally, I do find it useful. However, given your objections, I will do this in my own time and without the parties' assistance. AGK 14:57, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Is a promise or threat to "out" editors, or, worse yet, to make claims about them not based on objective fact. Which is yet another reason for AGK to recuse here -- prejudice, outing and categorization of editors are all against Misplaced Pages policy.

And his favourite treatment of policy is shown clearly by

1.A principle such as "Editors are expected to listen and respond to - not ignore - the community's concerns" would apply. However, these paragraphs are of little relevance to the dispute, and I do not think we need to mindlessly regurgitate basic policy in this way. AGK 19:46, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeppers - an arbitrator saying use of policy is "regurgitation" where it interferes with his positions :(.

shows my iterated position:

What is important is that trying to categorize anyone politically on the basis of properly conducted discussions on appropriate noticeboards does not work, never has worked, and never will work. This particular page is decidedly ill-suited for re-arguing decisions long since made. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:52, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

On which position Misplaced Pages shall stand or fall.

As a result of likely prejudice and involvement by an arbitrator, who may have already "poisoned the well", I decline to add any further evidence of any type whatsoever, and decline to participate in the workshop, and decline to "out" myself or anyone in any way or participate in such any such exercise. If AGK has indeed categorized or outed any editors whatsoever, even in internal discussions, this proceeding is nugatory in my honest opinion.

Proverbially, a wise man will not drink from a poisoned well. Collect (talk) 11:40, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Hi Collect,

  I've removed a large section of text at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/American_politics/Evidence#Hail_and_Farewell, for reasons I've laid out there. I don't plan to touch the copy above, although I can't guarantee others' actions. Let me know here if you have any questions; I've watchlisted this page. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:34, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Um -- it looks far more like "the well is indeed poisoned, but we do not want anyone pointing it out. Collect (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Note: I consider the following to be more than a tad "dismissive" of any editor:

I don't know how even to reply to a comment that plumbs such depths of absurdity. AGK 20:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Grave Dancers Anonymous:

I'm not an arb, but I read it. It sure doesn't contribute to making the atmosphere here less toxic, or building an encyclopedia, or moving this case to a meaningful conclusion. Actually, it leaves me with the impression that you may be trying to poison the well, and at the very least, it's disruptive. Perhaps if you would leave out the Latin, sarcasm, condescension, wikilawyering, and passive aggressive tone, the actual substance of your complaint would be taken more seriously.- MrX 18:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Seems even less gracious than most, I suggest. Expect similar gracelessness from others. Collect (talk) 20:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually I thought about sending you a similar suggestion. I think you have a strong argument that AGK should recuse, but you focus too much on the moral outrage, and less and just simply stating the facts. Doing so makes it easy for people to ignore you, which does you a great disservice. This is a pattern I saw with several of the participants in the GC case unfortunately. I'm not saying you don't have a right to the moral outrage - perhaps you do, there are some strong indicators for shenanigans in the ARbCom taking politically motivated actions - but when the body you are appealing to, is also the body you are accusing, thats a losers game. Gotta make it black and white so there is no room for wiggling out of what the evidence shows. Gaijin42 (talk) 21:00, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The evidence is damn clear -- and was removed from the arbitration page as though it were an inconvenient truth. Which I suppose it is. Expect me back to ask questions at ArbCom Election time. Lo alecha hamlacha ligmor. Collect (talk) 21:10, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to be gracious when I made that comment, but I was trying to be gracious when I retracted it. Do you really think it's a good idea to then dredge it up, and if so, for what purpose?- MrX 21:17, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Since the entirety of the evidence I provided about AGK was summarily deleted, I rather thought it rational to show how others involved in the issue reacted. If I misquoted your post, I will gladly redact it. As it is, I suspect you did not spontaneously think of removing it -- I wager that you got a post "suggesting removal" from an anonymous arb, right? Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:23, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Appropriate sources for WP:BLPs...again

Collect, my pinging you via WP:Echo likely reached you, and so I certainly don't mean to push, but will you weigh in on this matter when you get a good chance to do so? As shown in that discussion, I think that some WP:Reliable sources are being inappropriately discriminated against, similar to how People magazine was being inappropriately discriminated against (mainly by a lone editor), and that editors failing to distinguish between tabloid (newspaper format) and tabloid journalism is clearly still a problem for Misplaced Pages. Your take on appropriate sources for WP:BLPs often holds a lot of weight with the Misplaced Pages community; so I think your weighing in on this discussion will be beneficial. It may spare us and other editors from having to take this matter to the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard, similar to the big People magazine WP:RfC discussion that was had there. And you know that I often appreciate what you have to state on such sourcing matters, whether I agree or disagree. Flyer22 (talk) 00:52, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Alas -- my opinion holds no weight with an arb it seemingly appears, if you read the material above. Best wishes. Collect (talk) 01:37, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I see that you're upset. A lot of Wikipedians do listen to and agree with what you have to state about WP:BLPs; they don't always, of course. I'll go ahead and take the aforementioned matter to the WP:Reliable sources noticeboard; I hope you weigh in on it there. Flyer22 (talk) 01:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

AGK's defence

I do not think a reasonable basis for recusal is created by his efforts, here and in the earlier case, to portray me as corrupt. Actual corrupt actions or an undisclosed interest would be required for his portrayal to constitute a legitimate request for recusal: the proper formula is "my actions + his criticism = recusal". Collect is instead proposing "his criticism demands my recusal", a formula which if indulged would undermine the entire system of arbitration by allowing any one user to eliminate a perceivably-unsympathetic arbitrator through systematic and unfair campaigns. is AGK's defence on this.

I make no comment here, but any editor is free to add concrete evidence that I called AGK "corrupt."

Any editor who feels that recusal by an Arb requires that the Arb be "corrupt" is also free to opine. As, of course, are those who demur with AGK's stated position. Thanks to all - I think my opinion is clear above. Collect (talk) 12:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Google

So if the article on the case is notable (given the huge legal precedent it sets in Europe it certainly is) and contains within it the information google have been instructed to remove links to, wouldnt that mean google would also have to remove links to the article (which given how high wikipedia comes in search results will almost be the top entry if anyone searches in future) on the case that explains why they have to remove links? I am heavily in favour of an individuals right to privacy, but I cant see this ending well for anyone (wikipedia included) if Google has to start removing links to wikipedia articles. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:20, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

AFAICT, that is precisely the case -- almost as if someone wished a test case to be set up on Misplaced Pages before the ink on the decision is dry. I wonder how the WMF feels about such a deliberate edit? Collect (talk) 21:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Well at this point the logical solution is to remove the info so the article doesnt get blacklisted.... Waiiiiiittttt a minute!

More seriously, if the ruling sticks, this might actually benefit (in the long run) the BLP area, because it will mean that non-notable/barely notable people will get more protection than they currently do. Only in death does duty end (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If you read this talk page, you will note my "unusual position" at the moment. At the moment, there are a substantial number of BLPs on which editors are running riot, adding "allegations" and innuendo galore because no one is saying "no". Collect (talk) 21:47, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

A diff or two

Hey Collect, I understand it's a mass of stuff, and not all of it equally convincing, esp. not to others who are less acquainted with the matter. And it's hard to nail down a simple "unusual" phrase or common misspelling. But compare this edit with this one, for instance: same style of referencing. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:33, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Winnow it down -- really the most convincing material will have to be found in overlap of articles and showing a connection between their edits. And remember we need to look at whether a usage is common on Misplaced Pages overall -- which is why the "nevermind" bit is weak. Right now it is like offering a diner a bowl of beef stew, but where the beef is widely dispersed in a massive amount of vegetables. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:11, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Vegetables are healthy. I'm expecting readers to take their time and take it seriously. We're talking about prolific article creators with tons of edits, and we're talking about someone who went through some trouble to hide their tracks. I hatted one section, but gave you a new (short one): overlap between Candle and other (known and blocked) CoM socks. Know what all of them have in common? My talk page, haha. Drmies (talk) 22:45, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Broccoli will kill any article <g>. The more you have people read, the less they will actually scrutinize it (for good or ill). In my former life, the best evidence was "weird spelling" of common words - it gave very strong evidence in only a few posts. Words like, for example, "provacator" or the like will result in only a very few hits, and the intersection is a strong piece of evidence. I also find that "intersecting edits on the same user talk pages" has a very low chance of randomly occurring - if two editors intersect on more than about twenty user talk pages (excluding Jimbo and other high traffic pages etc.), they likely have some non-random connections. I find it substantially more compelling from a statistical standpoint than intersections on broad groups of articles. Collect (talk) 23:07, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't know. Edits to talk pages for admins are typically prompted by outside occurrences; in this case deletions, for instance. Then again, I think they have go-to editors for moving things from sandboxes. I'll see. You know this is an enormous timesink... Anyway, I did find out that both Candle and CoM have edited User:Jimbo Wales, which I thought was kind of odd. Drmies (talk) 01:41, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

That particular user page is a sort of playground for some, I think. Often, though, edits to talk pages are made to make an admin think that a particular position is widely held - most of those admins are not that active on the front lines of enforcing editing policies (BLP etc.) so having several "different editors" post substantially the same position does affect them. Collect (talk) 02:02, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

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BLP allegations

Quoting from the top of your talk page: "Articles which make "allegations" make bad encyclopedia articles, especially when any sort of POV can be attached thereto." How fascinating, then, to see you adding "allegations" to a BLP (noting the edit summary, naturally). BLP defender my ass… Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:06, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

And note that I used exactly what the reliable sources stated, that no allegations of crimes are involved, and that Piketty admits he altered numbers. And I included his rebuttal as to the reason for changing figures.. Sorry Charlie - your ad hom attempt here fails quite miserably. As for your snide "BLP defender my ass" -- I think your own POV is showing -- I have no personal opinion whatsoever about Piketty, and this happened to get major news coverage. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's keep this hair-splitting in mind the next time someone gets lectured about Collect's personal extended version of BLP policy. — goethean 21:49, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Nice try at jumping in -- this is Beckettian in a way -- the statements that Piketty used incorrect figures are admitted by Piketty at this point - he stated he needed to alter some to smooth out curves. Now both of you are cordially invited not to post here without damn good cause. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:05, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

But what about Harvard University Press? Piketty’s publisher there, Ian Malcolm, is interviewed here. From the sounds of it, he just reprinted the French version without applying the checks and balances that you’d hope would be applied to a Harvard economics book. He says how much money Piketty has made his company, and concluded by saying: “As long as there is bullshit and inequality, we won’t go out of business.”

Stalking Accusation

The allegation that another editor is stalking your edits, when he is simply replying at a talk page which he has watchlisted, is a personal attack. Either refrain from the allegation, or open a user conduct Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Nomo has been fairly blatant in this - starting yet another dramaboard section is not exactly what I desire - if you wish to see how "well" they work. If you desire, send me an email and I will show you what the EIR shows, or, better yet, you examine that tool. I also suggest you look at the nature of his posts in response to my posts in general. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

, , , (note outcome of that accusation) etc. Collect (talk) 17:42, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Editing other peoples' posts

Please don't edit other peoples' talk page posts, as you did here. I know that you know this behavior violates the talk page guidelines, and I know you know better. I'm not sure whether you're just trying to be difficult at this point, but in any case, please stop. MastCell  00:48, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Bullshit. You complained that "Santorum opposes euthanasia'" was unreferenced

I simply pointed out that the "Santorum is strongly against euthanasia" is precisely and exactly just as unreferenced. If one needs a "citation needed" than so does the other, and any other position is pure unadulterated manure. Cheers -- and stay the hell off this page. Collect (talk) 01:03, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Charlie Rangel

Hi there. Just a quick note explaining why I reverted your changes to the infobox on the Charlie Rangel article. If a congressman has served terms for different districts, we don't try and squash them all together into one continuous term on the infobox. Instead, they're split up. I get that one of your other reasons was that it's awkward to put a predecessor down for the NY-13, since the 13th is now very different to what it was, but that's how it's always been done, here on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere. Predecessors and successors are based on the district, regardless of how much it has changed. If you think the current thinking on this is wrong, I suggest you seek out a wider consensus for change, as this has been the standard for those kind of infoboxes for many years now, and just trying to make a change on one article isn't going to be the way forward. Hope this clarifies things. Redverton (talk) 21:52, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Redverton - Read Template_talk:Infobox_officeholder please - the support there is quite substantial. Cheers. I think you well ought to revert your changes. Collect (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for highlighting this - I wasn't aware of this change in consensus. I agree that the predecessor bit ought to be removed after all. However, unless I'm reading this wrong, where was the agreement to then try and squash multiple terms together into one? Rangel hasn't been serving the 13th since 1971, so why state so? Plus, attempting to describe the composition of NY-13 in the infobox itself just makes it look messy. Redverton (talk) 22:10, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

On the weird edits about Rangel et al -- I ain't guilty <g>. The fact is that Congress itself does not use numbers for its members, it is just a convenience for running elections in the first place. That some folks seem to be obsessed with saying Rangel has multiple predecessors and successor shows the problem fairly clearly, I think. The idea is to show the district numbers and use "redistricted" to indicate that "predecessor" or "successor" is not rationally applicable to the person. Thanks. Collect (talk) 22:20, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

In that case, I think we have reached an understanding. Before seeing your reply here, I did indeed add 'Redistricting' instead. Thanks again for letting me know about this change in consensus. Redverton (talk) 22:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

You are absolutely welcome! Thanks. Collect (talk) 23:24, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Goodness me, I just noticed the mini-war that's happened on the article since I left. You would have thought that guy would have taken a moment to look at your talk page - if he was so interested in arguing with you - and could easily have seen how settled this issue is. The nerve of some editors continues to astound me. Glad it looks like it's settled now. Redverton (talk) 01:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Merci. That editor accused me of following them to the Rangel page to boot <g>. Thanks for dropping in. Collect (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Michael Thompson (Aryan Brotherhood)

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George H.W. Bush

This is news to me. Sorry, but if you leave the article as is, people are going to think he jumped on his own. People don't know what you know.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

And something I just realized. All these years I didn't know he might have been attached to someone. Now I see the problem. Or maybe I don't.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 20:46, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The law requires people in wheelchairs to have assistance -- that is not a "notable fact" for a BLP. I believe we already point out that he is not able to walk unassisted. Collect (talk) 21:08, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I didn't know how skydiving worked, though.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 21:42, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Re: Chip Berlet

Check the talk page. There is consensus to remove it. Viriditas (talk) 11:43, 1 July 2014 (UTC)