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Template:Did you know nominations/Fred Stanfield

Nikkimaria, can I please ask you comment here on whether the proposed hook is fine as it is, or if its closeness to the New York Times is an issue? I'll take my lumps if appropriate. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Need a second opinion about a talk page

Hi, Nikkimaria

I hope I am not catching you in a busy time. I thought I could seriously use a second opinion from a neutral but seasoned person.

There is a discussion (so to speak) in Template talk:Infobox OS directly addressing me and I am not sure whether I should participate or ignore it. What do you think?

Thanks in advance

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 01:14, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I would not comment at this point: see if someone else chimes in first, and then decide whether to participate. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:23, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

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Template:Did you know nominations/Anti-Zionist League in Iraq redux

Nikkimaria, this article was approved today. The example you gave, "communal hatred", has not been fixed. I couldn't tell how serious you felt it was, so I thought I'd let you know what has happened subsequently. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:53, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks; I think after a slight edit it's good enough. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:45, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. Glad it worked out. BlueMoonset (talk) 03:47, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Honorverse wikia

Please come to Talk:Honorverse#Can_we_link_honorverse.wikia.com_from_external_links.3F to explain to the 3 editors who were in favor of adding the external link what precisely you had in mind when removing it with a referral to WP:ELNEVER. Debresser (talk) 08:20, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I am keen on equal treatment (of wikias on Misplaced Pages in today case). So what about fair use of extensive picture content at two wikias linked to Fallout (video game) (as well as to other Fallout articles)? --Dotz Holiday (talk) 15:59, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome to remove any links that you feel are problematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:07, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thx. I'm afraid your fair use expertise is necessary. --Dotz Holiday (talk) 06:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Source/formatting review?

I'd thought that the FAC for Russian battleship Peresvet was just about done, but one of the delegates pointed out that it could use a source/formatting review. Naturally I thought of you as it's one of the things that you do so well, so I'd be obliged if you have time to look it over.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:56, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for your quick response.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:15, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I'm trying to save an article that is about to be deleted for lack of reliable sources. There are several reliable sources on the HighBeam teaser page but I don't want to pay $200 to get past it. I understand you have users with an account. Could you search for "Vince Molinaro" and add the cites to Vince Molinaro and comments at the debate Thanks. 71.174.67.162 (talk) 00:23, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Vince Molinaro

Hi, I'm trying to save an article that is about to be deleted for lack of reliable sources. There are several reliable sources on the HighBeam teaser page but I don't want to pay $200 to get past it. I understand you have users with an account. Could you search for "Vince Molinaro" and add the cites to Vince Molinaro and comments at the debate Thanks. 71.174.67.162 (talk) 23:29, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi IP, is it just the articles linked from External links that you're interested in, or others? If others, can you list the titles? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:18, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The two that seem most hopeful are http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1420647871.html and http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-136512596.html Thanks! 71.174.67.162 (talk) 00:24, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

All the second says about him is "pundits have started to jump into the fray, creating models on which to base a proper leadership capacity growth strategy. David S. Weiss and Vince Molinaro are two such pundits, having recently released their first book together, The Leadership Gap: Building leadership capacity for competitive advantage. For a taste of their approach, read their feature article on page 20". Nikkimaria (talk) 02:33, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! How about the first? Enough depth to support WP:AUTHOR 3? 71.174.67.162 (talk) 07:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

That one I added to the article, but it's a book review and really doesn't discuss Molinaro himself, so I don't know how helpful it would be at AFD. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! I hadn't noticed that. I'll merge my edits with yours. The cite is in there twice at the moment. Book reviews are what I need to save the article because of clause 3 of WP:AUTHOR: Authors that create reviewed works are notable. By the way, don't let this bias you, but he's Canadian. ;-) One more question: Who is the author of this one http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-136512598.html ? Is it Dr. Molinaro? Or an independent? It's not clear from the snippet I can see. 71.174.67.162 (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

There's no author listed, beyond the note that it's an editorial. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:42, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Goodnight Moon

Hi, Nikkimaria. I'm not sure that the list of details that was recently removed from Goodnight Moon constitutes trivia. As far as I can tell, most trivia and trivia-like lists (cultural references, etc.) are somewhat deprecated because they are theoretically limitless, tend to be disjointed, and may constitute information that should be better integrated into the article. By contrast, the list of book details in Goodnight Moon is very likely to never get longer, is self-contained (instead of referring the other media, etc.) and, in my opinion, is a significant feature of the book. I'd like to propose reinstating the list.

Also, as part of your edit, both media type (print) and number of pages were removed from the info box. Was that on purpose? If so, does that constitute trivia as well? I'm a low-volume editor, so I'm not asking facetiously; for all I know, those things may be trivia these days. :-) Royce (talk) 04:46, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Whatever word is used for the list, I do feel that as presented it does not warrant inclusion - a long list of minute details from the illustrations, without any sourcing to indicate the significance of these details, limited only by the number of illustrations available to describe and sometimes referring to other media). It's undue and likely OR. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:49, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Ames crater

Nikkimaria, there has been a fix to the close paraphrasing you found in this article. Can you please check back when you have the chance to see whether the issue has been take care of? Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:20, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Kronan-thanks

Thank you for commenting Kronan FAC. I really appreciate all the helpful pointers.

Peter 16:36, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

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DYK Summary

I think it would've been more specific if you mentioned, "reopening" - was rejected by... Evidently the DYK passed and stayed for few hours. If you want, I can edit that for you? Thanks, that's all I have to add here. OccultZone (Talk) 00:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean the line automatically created by the template? I think we should leave that alone. Anyone interested should be able to follow the story as it is. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

You can add the content, explanation. That's how. Well, you already know it. OccultZone (Talk) 00:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Coolie

Thanks for picking out the extended URLs, the article may require some more cleanup. OccultZone (Talk) 01:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Requested pg move

Hi Nikki, when you get a chance could you use your superpowers to page move over a redirect Pope Paul III and his Grandsons --> 'His' with caps. Thank you. Ceoil (talk) 19:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Sound. Ceoil (talk) 23:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Approved?

Have I been approved for OUP access? I haven't received anything, as far as I can tell. Brianyoumans (talk) 04:25, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Brian, we haven't processed the applications yet - it should be happening soon. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:18, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the update! Brianyoumans (talk) 12:42, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you for your support at Talk:American_Paint_Horse#Requested_moves . I hope there are some more support votes out there, the people who seem to not understand that there are exceptions to rules run in packs. Those who will be negatively impacted usually don't, half the time not realizing the drama even exists. Montanabw 16:54, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Symbols of Winnipeg

Will you please stop removing the SVG versions from Commons? They have already been scrutinised under DR and were determined to be in the Public Domain. Fry1989 17:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I have not removed anything from Commons. I have and will remove material from en.wiki when there is inadequate evidence of correct licensing. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:14, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes you have! You keep removing File:Flag of Winnipeg.svg (which is on Commons) from Winnipeg and replacing it with File:Flag of Winnipeg.png which is an inferior PNG locally hosted here on Misplaced Pages. You also are doing it with the crest and you have done it on 3 different articles. The SVGs are on Commons and have licenses and they already went through a DR on Commons where the licenses were determined to be valid. Why are you doing this? Fry1989 01:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

If you are trying to say you don't believe the licenses for the Commons images, then you should go to Commons and nominate them for deletion a second time. Otherwise there is no reason not to use the Commons files. If you refuse to restore the Commons images, I will report this matter to the administrator's noticeboard because I believe you are improperly removing content. Fry1989 01:32, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no requirement that we use the Commons files, and they don't meet standards here as they are; thus, we should not use them here, regardless of what Commons chooses to do with them. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:53, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I did not say there was a requirement to use Commons images, I am saying that as long as they are good quality and have a license, there is no reason not to use them. You can not give me any reason why we shouldn't use a good SVG image of the flag and instead use a tiny blurry PNG instead. What possible standards do you believe the Commons files do not meet? Are they ugly, are they low quality, are they inferior? No, none of that is true. You say that you will remove images that have licensing issues, but you will not explain what is wrong with the licenses of the Commons files. If you will not explain any of this and only insist on removing the Commons files, it is clear that I will be forced to seek intervention. Fry1989 02:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I have raised this matter on the appropriate noticeboard. Fry1989 03:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no evidence that the licenses present are correct (as I have previously explained), and reasonable evidence that they are incorrect. Where there is insufficient support for free licensing, we are required to assume that the images are non-free, and thus typically must use smaller, lower-resolution versions to meet NFCC. Indeed, downsampling of the flag image was specifically requested at the Winnipeg review for that reason. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:44, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

On the contrary, there is no solid evidence they are copyrighted and reasonable evidence as was provided on Commons that they are not copyright violations, but you would not know any of that because you have simply looked at the wording of the licenses and made up your mind, unilaterally removing content and refusing to directly answer any of my concerns, and speaking nebulously saying "they don't meet our standards" and "there's no requirement to use them". Fry1989 03:50, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

1. Again, we don't require solid evidence that they are copyrighted, but that they are free. We work from the assumption that they are copyrighted unless we have clear evidence to the contrary.
2. The flag image is sourced to two non-free images, while the crest image's source gives a 1970s date; both strongly suggest that the images are non-free
3. I read the DR on Commons; no evidence to support PD-self licensing for either image was provided there, and despite my requests you declined to support your assertions regarding the PD-Canada licensing.
4. Despite your personal attacks, I have in fact directly answered your concerns - I simply haven't agreed that they are valid. You have now filed a report at AN, so rather than continuing to disagree here let's see how that turns out. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I have now been accused by both yourself and another of either "abuse" or "personal attacks" when I have done neither. I asked you a question and you gave me a very cryptic response, calling it nebulous is hardly a personal attack. Asking for a direct response or clarification is also not a personal attack. Accusing me of things I have not does not help the matter. I asked you why we shouldn't use these images, you instead say "We aren't required to", that is not what I asked and you accuse me of personally attacking you for finding that answer less than straightforward? Fry1989 04:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Luke fon Fabre

Nikkimaria, I was pinged by Storye book, who has reviewed the DYK and noted that the volume of quotations from the source in the reference citations seemed excessive, but wanted a second opinion. It looks excessive to me, too, but I figured you'd have the best take on it, including any pointers to the specific guideline. Thanks for your help. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:47, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

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My songs

Thank you for your helpful checks and comments in the FA review of my songs! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:19, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Moesha Pilot

How are my sources not reliable when OTHER pages use the same websites, and no one deletes them?? If you actually WATCH the series, there would be no need for sources anyways because the production details are obvious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenjaminButler123 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

BenjaminButler123, if you see other articles that use unreliable sources, feel free to address the issue at those other articles. However, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS does not justify using unreliable sources on this article. There is a discussion on the talk page in which you are free to participate, but you should not restore material without an actual reliable source to support it. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:31, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

James Bond in film

Why don't you simply just block the two edit warriors instead of fully protecting an article, which is suppose to be the Last Resort, not the first option?--JOJ 17:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Er, no - full protection is no more of a "last resort" than blocking. I want them to discuss the issue; protection allows for that possibility, blocking does not. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:26, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Nikki is right on this one, full protection stops an edit war cold; blocking doesn't solve the long-term problem, as it shuts down all discussion and focuses excessively upon the editors and not the content. Montanabw 21:09, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

AN

This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

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Louis Ferreira page

Hello, I hope you can assist with Louis Ferreira's web page. Someone has butchered the page and cut it down to about half of what was there, removing a ton of perfectly good links (I check them periodically and they were all working!), plus removing some important credits, such as his role on Breaking Bad. I'm mystified as to why this happened, and there seems to be no way to contact the person as they only have an IP number. Can we change the page back to before they wreaked havoc on it? What can I do to help? I spent a LOT of time finding and checking all those links, and now everything is gone. I can only see this as vandalism. Please help.Bczogalla (talk) 19:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)Bczogalla

Hi Bczogalla, that looks to be a very stable IP adress, so you probably could contact him/her via user talk. If that doesn't work, I would suggest filing a request for semi-protection at the protection requests board. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Hello again, I tried the talk page for that address but it just goes to a talk page for general IP addresses. I have no clue how to contact a single IP address, sorry. Meanwhile, how do I get all the deleted materials back? I will definitely try the semi-protection route, but right now I want to find all the stuff that was lost. I run Mr. Ferreira's website and his Misplaced Pages page is an important referral both ways, I need it to be as accurate as it was before. Any advice will be much appreciated - thank you!Bczogalla (talk) 20:00, 10 June 2014 (UTC)Bczogalla

This is the talk page for the IP in question; you can leave a message there as you would for any other user. To find the deleted material, use the article's history page - for example, this diff shows all the changes made since your last edit to the page. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi again, yes, I know how to undo the last edit but we're talking dozens of edits here. I don't know how to get back to the site the way it was before this person messed with it... Sorry, I only do this one page so I don't know a lot of editing features. Bczogalla (talk) 01:07, 11 June 2014 (UTC)Bczogalla

On the history page, click on the old revision you want to go back to, then click "Edit". Add in any edits since then that you want to keep, then hit save. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:12, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

La Mer (appearances in other media)

Why remove that? --AlchemistOfJoy (talk) 12:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

There is no indication of the significance of these appearances - see WP:IPC. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

This Month in GLAM: May 2014

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FAR question

Hi Nikkimaria, a quick question about FAR...I've been helping with an article that was nominated two weeks ago (Central Coast Mariners), and reading the top of the page it seems to indicate that two weeks is the window at the FAR stage before moving on. However, given how much improvement has been made to the article since it was nominated at FAR (it was neglected before that), I genuinely feel we could address the issues entirely and restore it to the standard it was previously with an extra 10-14 days. My question is, is that possible just to defer the decision to move to FARC/close FAR by a week or two? Or are the procedures rigid in their timings? I understand if it's the latter, but hoping for the former. Regards, Daniel (talk) 11:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Daniel, it's fine to take a bit more time - just leave a brief note like the above on the FAR so the other coord is aware of your plans. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:46, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the swift reply. I'll link them to this section to save rewriting the message :) Thanks again, Daniel (talk) 11:48, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Selma

You're everywhere! If you are wondering, I moved the section with the HighBeam cites to Selma to Montgomery marches; I decided the film article couldn't bear the weight, and the 'marches' article was a more appropriate location. - Neonorange (talk) 04:23, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 11:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

PTS, etc.

Sorry; it's an in-joke. In an earlier comment on Jimmy's talk page I likened some of Misplaced Pages's norms to those of Scientology. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:52, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Ah, okay. So the RevDel request was a joke too? Careful no one takes you up on it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:55, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

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On bended knee, asking for a favour once more...

Hi Nikkimaria, I hope all is well with you. I wonder if you could join the fray on "my" most recent foray into FAC to undertake a source review. As always I think I've covered everything, but as always, I'm sure you'll probably spot several errors along the way! Many thanks for any advice and assistance you can give. - SchroCat (talk) 06:18, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Google Book links

Hi, Nikkimaria. In this edit to Fahrenheit 451, you shortened a bunch of Google Book links in the references by stripping off search parameters. Why is that? The extra part of the URLs highlights the exact material being referenced (at least it does for me). Do the links not work properly for you? Jason Quinn (talk) 22:33, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

The long links lead to a search results page, the shorter ones directly to the page being referenced. WP:CITE supports direct page links, not search links. Since you're already including quotes in the footnote, including them in the URL is even more extraneous. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

But Nikki -- you've shortened a number where I wanted to refer to the multiple pages in the link indicated -- not the sole one you limited it to. Please restore those, and stop doing this. Tx. --Epeefleche (talk) 00:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Do you have an example of a link where this is an issue? As already noted, linking to search results is not appropriate, even if more than one of the results is relevant. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:59, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't see where it is forbidden. Are you saying it is forbidden? There are a number of article where you did this to cites I added -- here is one example. That's very unhelpful; to turn a ref that pointed to pages that support text, and change the ref they added to one that does not support the text. Very, very unhelpful. Epeefleche (talk) 01:33, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

The real problem with those citations is that you neglected to provide page numbers for the references. You can't expect either editors or readers to be able to tell what you're citing if you don't use a full citation; a GBooks URL, whether long or shortened, is no substitute. I suggest re-reading WP:CITE. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• Those highlighted references can often be misleading, or it can lead you to multiple pages even if you meant to cite to a single page. Usually, I would favour filling in the page numbers in "|pages=" within the citations template if you want to refer to multiple pages using the same book link. I see that full use has not been of that facility in the example you cited. -- Ohc  01:52, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
• Nikki -- you are changing refs other editors put in. From ones that directly supported the text they followed. To ones that did not do so. So the text no longer satisfied our verifiability requirements. Where in the format guideline does it say you are required to do that? I would prefer verifiability over format -- where does it say the opposite? I think this is a step in the wrong direction, for you to strip articles of indicia of verifiability. Epeefleche (talk) 02:08, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• Epee -- your refs did not meet our citation requirements, and my changes did not change that. If you want to take a step towards verifiability, provide full citations rather than attempting to rely on GBooks URLs to do it for you, because they don't. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:19, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

• When we cite, there is no requirement to include a link, even to satisfy WP:V. Our obligation as editors is to cite a text, which may be a paper document such as a printed newspaper or a book; we should give page number in such cases. Gbook pages are not universally viewable, they are only selective; viewable pages are country dependent. Plus there is always a possibility that one day Google will not provide the service, and then the link will be gone, and we will be up the Swanee without a paddle if there is no page number and the document is more than a small number of pages. I'd therefore say that the important detail is the page number, not the url. We shouldn't patronise the reader, who we can assume to be educated enough to find the relevant underlying text without the multiple highlighting by Gbooks, assuming the are told which page it's on. -- Ohc  04:02, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
• Nikki -- forgive me if I neglected to inquire -- Where in the format guideline does it say one is required to do that? Epeefleche (talk) 02:56, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• WP:BURDEN: "Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate)...See Citing sources for details of how to do this." WP:Page numbers (part of WP:CITE): "When citing lengthy sources, you should identify which part of a source is being cited. Books and print articles: Specify the page number or range of page numbers". Nikkimaria (talk) 03:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• How did your edits -- see my above example at the Madoff article -- changing multiple urls repeatedly to urls that did not comport with that rule, by changing to urls that pointed to the wrong page, comply? And how is that better that the prior multiple page urls, where the reader could find the page that supported the text in question (but after your change, they can't)? If you are going to change a ref, you shouldn't change it from accurate multiple page urls to wholly inaccurate one-page urls. I would think that would be a pretty clearly "better format, horrifically worse substance" move. Epeefleche (talk) 03:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

• Let's see: 14 URLs on that article, and 12 point to the same place both before and after my edit. One now points to the chapter as a whole for an unpaginated book, which is what you should have included in the citation in first place. The final one ends up giving exactly the same information as your search, because somehow the search was broken before I got there - you might want to look into that. So your claims are, to put it generously, overstated. And by the way, as Ohconfucius explains, even if you were correct you could not assume that the reader could verify the text using your URLs. One of many reasons why you still need to provide page numbers, and treat Google page links (not search links, not snippet links) as convenience rather than substance. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Apologies - butting in. This page about google books is quite helpful and should be followed. Victoria (tk) 03:30, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Nice link, Victoria, thanks. That deserves to be more widely read. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:22, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It is an excellent link and I meant to drop it here earlier in the conversation. People don't realize that what they see on g-books is not what another person sees. I don't use g-books links at all because all we need is the bibliographic information. Victoria (tk) 15:42, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Just to be clear -- what is the nature of that link? Is it a guideline, or a policy? Or just one editor's view ... the same as my views expressed above. If so, if I were to create a page (or an essay) called "Problem With Link Removals that remove Information as to what Pages were being Considered," that would be a "link" as well, I imagine? I raise this only because at times people point to an essay or the like as though it is a guideline or a policy, while it is solely one editor's opinion (or that of a few editors), and has no more force by virtue of being a link than if it were a comment in a thread. Epeefleche (talk) 18:46, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

No one has suggested that the link is policy, but it is good advice. If you were to create an essay with that title based on the information/practices you've presented so far, it likely wouldn't meet that standard. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:10, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Robert Dulmers

Hi Nikkimaria, I put this up for DYK. You're often kind enough to scrub my contributions; would you please do that for this one as well? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 04:47, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Ping

At Talk:Honorverse, at your leisure, can you respond to mine and Dotz's last queries for you? Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:38, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Openpara RfC

Hi Nikkimaria. I'm closing this RfC, and I notice that you say in one of your comments that there is already consensus to remove the part about brackets. I can't find that discussion - could you point me to it? Thanks. Formerip (talk) 22:15, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Not to worry, I think I've worked it out. Apologies that the close is not going to go your way. Formerip (talk) 23:22, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Grove online

Hello - at 23:14, on 6 May 2014 I put myself on the list for free access to OUP here - , I am 106 on the list. It says you " will be approving accounts and collecting email addresses." I haven't heard a thing, Grove would be very useful for the articles on Baroque music I work on. Then today I see another notice about free accounts and wonder why I have not heard anything.It would be nice to know if I have not been approved or what exactly the situation is. Thanks Smeat75 (talk) 01:02, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey Smeat75, as of right now everyone not indented is approved but we're waiting on account distribution. Sorry for the delay! Nikkimaria (talk) 02:17, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

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Will reply

…to form fill-out request before weekend is out. Thank you for your effort on this project. LeProf Leprof 7272 (talk) 01:50, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Leprof, appreciate it. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:25, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Citation style

Nikkimaria, Great, thanks for the info. This is the first that anyone has informed me of that. Daniellagreen (talk) 14:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Longmont's Alias List

Hi Nikki,

I understand that you might think the long list of Longmont Alias's are trivial, but I spent the last 7 years of my life listening & compiling that list and sharing it with the artist's many fans through this wikipedia page. I now see that you have entirely removed it. I don't know about you, but when someone deletes 7 years of my work and calls it 'trivial', it doesn't exactly sit well with me. Every single time a new album would come out, I would log on to wikipedia and document the multitude of absurd and hilarious pseudonyms that only a genius could concoct. I would now like this list back. If you could possibly send me the list so that I may refer to it for my own personal amusement, that would be much appreciated. I'm very offended at this deletion and hope that you may one day think of the users of the page and what they like, not what you believe to be trivial in nature.

Best,

Michael Stern

(925) 285-5183 mstern116@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mineral1g (talk • contribs) 21:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Michael Stern, you can find the list here. When constructing a page on Misplaced Pages, we must consider that this is an encyclopedia and so can't be everything to everybody. I suggest if you want to share information with the artist's fans without having to deal with such constraints, you might want to create a fansite. There are a number of free services available for that purpose. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Your removal of infobox elements

Hi Nikki. You've removed infobox elements here, including elements that may be filled in at a later time. That's unhelpful. Certainly as to those elements that may be filled in at a later time. Please revert yourself. Inclusion of what you deleted does no harm. Deletion of to-be-billed-in infobox lines reduces the liklihood that, and ease with which, other editors will later fill in that information. Which is detrimental to the Project. --Epeefleche (talk) 23:09, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Which parameters removed do you feel are likely to be helpful and available? Leaving a multitude of unfilled parameters in a page reduces its accessibility and increases the likelihood of unnecessary bloat. I would prefer not to revert an edit that does more good than harm. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

All that may reasonably possibly be filled in later. Removing parameters that may be filled in -- to delete parameters that do not appear in what readers see -- clearly does more harm than good. And I can't see any guideline-supported basis for your deletion of parameters from an accepted infobox template. That another editor has put in the article. To delete another editor's work as you did, you should have a guideline-supported reason, and explain in your edit summary what it is that requires the deletion. --Epeefleche (talk) 00:07, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Which parameters specifically do you think "may reasonably possibly be filled in later"? It should be obvious on even a casual glance that many of the removed parameters do not apply to the school in question (like postal code for a US school with a zip code, kindergarten for a junior high, etc). As such, they fall under "exclude any unnecessary content". Furthermore, the parameters do appear in what editors see, and so affects their editing experience. Thus, the editor who copies and pastes a giant template onto the top of an article should take more care in tailoring than was evident here. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:34, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

You messed it up. By removing parameters. Without guideline support for doing so (I've asked, and you've pointed to none). Either restore everything -- it does not affect the readers. Or I will. Or restore all but what you don't think can possibly be filled in, and be prepared to explain why the guidelines permit that change. As to what might possibly be filled in -- res ipsa loquitur. You screwed this up; you can restore that which you don't have a guideline-based reason for removing, reverting another editor, and varying it from what the template used at the project has.

Also -- again the issue of edit summaries ... it's not sufficient to say what you did in a situation like this. Say what your justification is. "empty" is not a justification, where you (apparently) have no justification for removing empty parameters ("exclude any unnecessary content" -- unclear what "exclude" means there, and what "necessary" means there ... nothing whatsoever is "necessary"), certainly ones that can be filled in. You've had a number of editors request of you in the past that you indicate in your edit summary, where it may be controversial especially, the "why" rather that just the self-evident "what". Epeefleche (talk) 00:41, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

I have pointed to a guideline. I've also pointed out that it does affect the editors, and so has the potential to affect the readers. I haven't reverted anyone on this article, yet, nor have I "screwed this up". The template at the project has all parameters to allow for all potential types of school that might use the template, but this particular school does not need all parameters, as anyone (including you) can see. If there are specific parameters that you feel warrant inclusion, great, let's discuss that. Not all of them do. There is no reason why this edit should be controversial, no need for further justification (and certainly not to the extent that you demand), nor any cause for a reasonable person to revert it wholesale. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:05, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

All parameters do not need to be present in an infobox. I routinely exclude parameters that do not apply or that are empty - it's always possible to return a parameter if it later turns out to be felt necessary - but if a field is never going to apply it should be removed and left out. If you're discussing this edit - the removal of the "province" and "postal code" parameters are quite in line with policy - they will NEVER be filled in for a school in New York State .... nor will the religious affiliation and denomination fields be filled out for a publically funded American school. In fact, most of the removed parameters are never going to apply to this school ... so removing them is quite simply a good thing. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)(edit conflict) Heyo, just passing by with a quick comment: in the last big discussion, I opined that one of the things that we folk who like everything about infoboxes could do, is stop populating articles with the Template:Infobox_school#Complete usage set (which are often overwhelmingly vast), and instead start off with the Template:Infobox school#Common parameters. (run-on-sentences-ftw!) I completely grok the desire to show the newcomers all the available options; but doing it by placing all the options directly within every article, does make the infobox a lot more intimidating, ie. if someone has to scroll down 5 screens worth of template-code, before they see the lead-paragraph. Balance in all things! That's all! Hope it helps. :) –Quiddity (talk) 01:38, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

The Final Cut (album)

Hello there. I like your userboxes!

I know you said something about "don't ping me on my Talk page", but to be honest, I didn't know what all those acronyms meant, specifically FAC, so I thought it might not drive you completely around the bend if I informed you, just for your convenience, that I wrote you a comment at Talk:The_Final_Cut_(album)#Dear_Nikkimaria. You advised me not to restore my edit at this time, and I am taking your advice, thank you.

That's just one of about 1,067 other paragraphs I wrote you. It's a good thing you're a Wikipedian who "enjoys reading anything", because a lot of people would merely glance at the length of my comment and inform me snidely that they didn't read it. Or call it a "screed"; "rant"; etc. I think you'll find it's actually relatively calm and well-reasoned. Since both previous reverters refused to discuss their reversions, I find myself more and more asking questions in my comments rather than making a pile of statements. I hope the length doesn't dissuade you. Your userboxes say you read between the lines, so I'm especially curious/nervous to see if you'll reply (unlike the other two), and I have no idea what you're going to say, if anything.

Thanks for your contributions to Misplaced Pages in general, and for an Edit Summary that was both clear (in plain English) and civil. You seem to have a good reputation, you're an administrator, and any replies you leave me, positive or negative, I will likewise be civil with you. I do not have a squeaky-clean past with civility, but I'm trying to do better. Now if I could only master the art of brevity!

--Ben Culture (talk) 17:15, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey Ben Culture, FAC refers to Featured Article Candidates - this article is already a Featured Article, which means it has been assessed according to a set of criteria and found to be among the best Misplaced Pages has to offer. That doesn't mean it can't be improved further, but users are expected to take care in editing such articles. What has happened at this article is that the author has objected to some of the changes you want to make, and so far discussion between the two of you has failed to reach a consensus. A no consensus outcome to a content discussion typically means that the article is left in its original state. If this is unsatisfactory to you, I would recommend pursuing some form of dispute resolution, focusing on the content/balance of the article rather than the behaviour of contributors. Since it appears that neutrality is your primary concern (correct?), the Neutrality Noticeboard would be a good option for seeking further opinions. I will warn you, though, that respondents at most dispute-resolution forums tend to prize not only evidence and sources but also brevity in presentation, which I suspect might be an issue for you. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:29, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply and your advice, Nikkimaria. There's just one problem with it. As you said, "What has happened at this article is that the author has objected to some of the changes you want to make, and so far discussion between the two of you has failed to reach a consensus. A no consensus outcome to a content discussion typically means that the article is left in its original state."

That would make sense, but there's a big problem with it: it's too easy to cheat. All a bad-faith, article-owning, uncivil edit-warrior has to do is, revert changes repeatedly (perhaps recruiting a like-minded friend to do it, too), and then refuse to engage in discussion, making any consensus impossible. What has really happened is that a discussion was never had, thus there could be no consensus. It's not "discussion between the two of you has failed to reach a consensus"; it's "discussion between the two of us has failed to happen." Despite my best efforts to start one. "No consensus" and "No discussion" are two very different things. Seriously: Parrot of Doom's brief replies had nothing to do with my comments (and were personally insulting), while GrahamColm has flat-out refused to post a word to the Talk page at all. You can see what an easy cheat this is for a biased, revert-minded editor who prefers "his" article never changes, right?

Brevity may be a problem for me, but citing reliable sources is not. As I've said from the beginning, all my changes were supported by reliable inline citations. No explanation was ever given for their reversions.

Thanks for your attention.

--Ben Culture (talk) 00:29, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's why it can be helpful to seek out further, unbiased opinions - having more participants tends to create a more productive discussion and reduces the potential for "cheating", as you term it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention. I've gone to three or four people I know and respect (one being an admin) that have been involved with Pink Floyd articles in the past, asking them to come and give their opinion. So far, no replies. I don't know a lot of people here. I'm an on-and-off Wikipedian because, though I love the concept of Misplaced Pages, and I love to improve an article, some contributors who are more obsessive have been allowed to remain hostile and anti-change. I would describe the average long-term Wikipedian as a rude jerk. Especially when they get a little status. (I'm not at all referring to you.) Mark my words: Parrot of Doom will never be blocked, despite recent Edit Summaries like "oh fuckoff" and "get fucked". See Blackbeard (Oh, I see you're already there). Better yet, see his little announcement atop his User: Talk page ("I insist on owning articles and insulting people!"). You're an admin, right? Why don't you at least warn him?!?

I don't know what more I can do.

The solution to people who revert edits, and then refuse to explain why, shouldn't be that they get their way! That seems a no-brainer to me.

--Ben Culture (talk) 15:18, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I could warn a bunch of people across those two pages, but what would that accomplish? Everyone involved is already at least aware of WP:CIVIL and other applicable policies. However, as perhaps you're beginning to understand, WP:CIVIL is perhaps the policy with the most inconsistent application and enforcement, and previous efforts to police the discourse of experienced editors have almost uniformly ended in disaster and drama with little to no positive effect. I would prefer, if at all possible, to refocus the discussion at both pages on the matters of content rather than behaviour, and maybe find some resolution to the disputes. Could you put aside your upset with Parrot to help with that?

As to getting more people involved: asking individual editors in the manner you did is likely to be problematic. Had any of them responded, you likely would have been accused of canvassing because of the tenor of your messages. You could reach a broader and more neutral audience by posting a short note along the lines of "There is currently a discussion about X at Talk:Y that could use more opinions" at venues like WikiProject noticeboards, or by pursuing some form of dispute resolution as previously suggested. There is always the possibility that respondents won't agree with you, but this way neither side can be accused of "cheating" in any way. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:03, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

A cup of tea for you!

I appreciate your suggestion about referencing. I will try to cite in the official format in the future. Thanks. Daniellagreen (talk) 17:34, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

OA for Writing Course?

Hi NikkiMaria! Not sure if you remember me, we did the ambassador training together in Indianapolis. I am looking for two online ambassadors to help with a course I'm teaching in the Education program. More specifically, I'm hoping to find a few ambassadors who can review student proposals for possible edits and sources from July 25th to July 30 and then review article drafts from July 30 to August 11. I'm working on putting the full schedule up on the course page but those would be the main duties of the ambassadors involved. Think you'd be interested? Matthewvetter (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Hey Matthewvetter, sounds fun, I'm in. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much! We'll be in touch. If you need to contact me outside WP, you can use mv115510@ohio.edu. Matthewvetter (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

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Columns

Nikki, please don't keep changing these at Joel Brand. I've written it with manual short refs that don't (because manual) link to the long ref. Therefore, the name in the long ref has to be easy to find, so I've used columns and indenting. Without the columns it becomes one flat list that's ugly and harder to read.

There's no consensus to deprecate columns; it is something that was suggested but not agreed upon yet, so if people want to use them, it's okay. Also, this is an article you've never edited before, so it seems unfortunate to arrive to revert on a style issue while I'm fixing it up. I'd really appreciate being allowed to get on with it using the style that I chose. SlimVirgin 17:01, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Slim, the indents work fine for me whether using colwidth or fixed number of columns; I'm not sure why they wouldn't work for you? This is an accessibility issue, which is why using number of columns is deprecated. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:03, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know whether you intended to remove Epeefleche's post, but it makes clear that there isn't consensus to deprecate columns, so people are allowed to use them (ditto fixing image sizes). Removing the columns means I can't see the names so easily because the indents stop working. I can't be alone in that, so I'm going to restore them during my next edit. I'd really appreciate it if you would leave them at least until after it has been on the main page (then we can resume the discussion if you like). I'm feeling under quite a bit of pressure with it for various reasons, mainly trying to make sure it's suitably comprehensive but not too much. SlimVirgin 00:05, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, I'd be interested in why exactly it's not working for you, as I've not seen any reports of that issue before. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean. When you remove the columns, they disappear for windows under a certain size, and not very small, as has been discussed at the refbegin talk page. When the columns disappear, you're left with the usual long line of text that is such a problem on WP. With the long lines of text, all or most of the indenting disappears, because the indents depend on the text being wrapped around. So for both those reasons, it is ugly. The columns look better and the indents make the surnames easier to find for readers and editors (I keep a window of sources open all the time when I'm editing).

I don't mind discussing it further, but can we please leave it until July 14? I'd like to focus only on the content between now and then, because it's a tricky topic, so there's a lot of juggling needed to decide what to include. SlimVirgin 01:09, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so the indenting itself isn't the problem, it's the number of columns. Why not then try using smaller columns? The intent is to make the formatting functional for the greatest number of people, and the previous layout doesn't meet that. We'd like to display our best work at TFA, after all. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:30, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree that it wouldn't be our best work with columns (it might not be for other reasons, which is why I want to concentrate on it between now and then). The whole point of STYLEVAR, ENGVAR and CITEVAR is to stop these style discussions by saying that style issues need only be internally consistent, and this issue, in particular, is a matter of preference. I see Jeremy Thorpe, a recent FA, uses two fixed columns in Notes and four in the Citations section.

Again, I'll be happy to talk about it once TFA is over. Discussions about style suck all the pleasure out of writing, for me anyway. SlimVirgin 02:28, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, this isn't simply a matter of preference, but of accessibility. Jeremy Thorpe is a start-class article and shouldn't be looked upon as a model. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:40, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to write Thorpe affair. SlimVirgin 02:50, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe you went and changed that because I mentioned it. SlimVirgin 02:55, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

You pointed out a problem, I corrected it. What is surprising is that you would revert the fix and re-add a bunch of spacing problems in the process. That's not exactly a positive step. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:57, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

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Removal of Infobox

Dear Nikkimaria,

In agreement with Gerda Arendt I have put a second Infobox for the "Intermezzo", which has another WAB number and was composed as alternative for the Scherzo of Bruckner's String Quintet. You have removed it with as reason "not 2".

The Bruckner's Gesamtausgabe puts the String Quintet and the Intermezzo together. In the German Misplaced Pages the String Quintet and the additional Intermezzo are also grouped into a single section.

If it is really forbidden to have a second infobox, please advise how we can put on a consistent manner the info about the "Intermezzo", which has different dates of composition, edition, first performance and recording, into the single infobox "String Quintet".

Thank you in advance for your expected advice. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 12:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I have in the meantime combined the content of the two original Infoboxes. Please advise how we can improve it without loosing the info. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 14:45, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Gerda and I are not very happy with the result. It looks indeed confusing, with so many data different. We are thus intended to restore the former version (with two Infoboxes). --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 15:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I have responded at the article's talk page. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:14, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

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July 2014

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Happy Canada Day!

Psalm 146 (Bruckner)

Dear Nikkimaria,

I do not understand why you removed the text used for Bruckner's Psalm 146. It is well substantiated and referred: Die Heilige Schrift des alten und neuen Testamentes, Dritter Band (mit Approbation des apostolischen Stuhles), 4. Auflage, pp. 279-280, Landshut, 1839, and it is not the same as the text of the Luther Bible.

PS: I am restoring the date of publication of Bruckner's Psalms and the Magnificat. Except Psalm 150 (Bruckner), they were all published first by Paul Hawkshaw in the Gesamtausgabe.

Regards, --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 17:36, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

The text is already partially included in the Setting section; we don't need to duplicate it in full right afterwards, referenced or not. As to the other matter, please do not add material to infoboxes that is not supported by the article text. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:41, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

I an not very happy with the removal of the full text, because only the very first words of each part of the work are included in the Setting section. Furthermore, not everyone has access to the score of Bruckner's psalm setting or to the old Catholic Bible Bruckner used for it, or even more can read it with the Gothic script.

Fortunately, I have also provided Hans Roelofs with the text. It can so be accessed too as a link on his discography page.

NB: When restoring any data in the infobox, I am first looking whether it is substantiated in the article text. --Réginald alias Meneerke bloem (To reply) 18:30, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

1. ^ Chronology of the Complete Bruckner Edition 1990-2001
2. Discography of Psalm 146

That is certainly odd, given that you have on several occasions restored unsubstantiated data. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:07, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Peace music

Would you like your peace music to appear on this year's anniversary or wait until 2017? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:11, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

2017. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:33, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

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