Misplaced Pages

Adieu (or Au revoir ?) Halacoglu

The material referring to Halacoglu in the Turkish Position/Casualties which relied on TV interviews, and wasn't in English as she is spoke or writ, has been removed. There's no reason why Halacoglu's writings on the subject (in particular the two works in English) shouldn't be mentioned, but not second hand, only if supported by citations from the works in question. WP:CS refers. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Armenian killed pregnant womans!

Moved to subpage. - FrancisTyers · 14:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

THOTH style

Moved to subpage. - FrancisTyers · 14:19, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

THOTH style meets its match - not quite...

Moved to subpage. - FrancisTyers · 14:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Berktay - Armenians killed by a Special organization

Moved to subpage. - FrancisTyers · 14:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To all anon users

your changes to the article without an explanation and a signature is generaly automaticly reverted by other users since this is regarded as vandalism and your acts proves basis for the protection of the article. Please stop that and use legit. means. neurobio 11:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

first picture

can someone describe me what they see in the first picture? where does it come from? who are these soldiers?neurobio 14:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Fogery an old Habit

File:Forgery.jpg

I agree with Inshanee "showing that one image has been forged does not mean that all images have been forged, nor does it mean that all of the claims about the events have been forged." But one has to admit that we are seeing a very spesific pattern here ], ]. Remember Andonian forgeries, Hitler quote, quotes attributed to Talat or Mustafa kemal which are still in armeniapedia or other web sites. Dear Marshall The famous painting above was enlarged and shown to the Canadian public in the 1970's, in the Yerevan Pavilion at the annual Metro International Carovan festivities in Toronto, as proof of "Armenian genocide". See the photo I uploaded. This is also a famous photo of Mustafa kemal but reckless Armenian propagandists are so sure that they wont get a reply still use it (or who will hear the reply? only Turks probably). There are a lot of pictures said to be genocide photo but only Armen wenger photos are surely known to be from that time and event. Others are all suspicious given many forgery cases. (especially the one where "ottoman soldiers" pose in front of heads. imagine! you take cut off heads go to a photo studio or call the photographer (in dar el zor "desert" or burned down Van province) set up a nice table put the heads and say cheese.)And ofcourse all photos are not photoshoped. just miss presentation of a photo from a different time or event is a forgery.

I also partly agree with Inshanee when he says ”It's POV and demonstrates nothing of relevance” about forged photos, but he or anyone else has to explain us what the Turkihs denial Advertisement in the article demonstrates? What is its relevance? For me it only shows that the Diaspora puts at least 400.000 dollars (a full page in The times!) for a hate advertisement instead of building a school or orphanage in Armenia.

I am asking once again what is the source of the first photo in the article. who are these soldiers. who are the dead people? What is the date? if no one gives a satisfying answer it should be deleted.neurobio 00:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Using material from TAT is like a neo-nazi using material from stormfront on the Holocaust page.--Eupator 02:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

thanks for your nice comment. no offence taken :). Still no one informs us about the picture thereneurobio 12:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

And what do you call Systems of a down? your band of beloved racist satanists, LOL lutherian 05:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

When are you going to learn that repeatedly making comparisons to Jewish holocaust does not make your story any easier to swallow, no matter how many times you repeat it.

" What happened to the Armenians is a matter for historians to decide. We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide. " Nobel Peace Laureate, Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres

" The Armenians want to benefit from both worlds. On the one hand, they speak with pride of their struggle against the Ottoman despotism, while on the other hand, they compare their tragedy to the Jewish Holocaust. I do not accept this. I do not say that the Armenians did not suffer terribly. But I find enough cause for me to contain their attempts to use the Armenian massacres to diminish the worth of the Jewish Holocaust and to relate to it instead as an ethnic dispute. " Professor Bernard Lewis, published in the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, January 23, 1998

" If 1.5 million Armenian lost their lives during that war, they died as soldiers, fighting a war of their own choosing against the Ottoman Empire which had treated them decently and benignly. They were the duped victims of the Russians, of the Allies, and of their own Armenian leaders. A few thousand Armenians may have lost their lives during their relocation, caused by their own subversion " Rabbi Albert Amateau, Sephardic Jewish leader in the United States addressing the Congress in 1990 24.211.192.250 04:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

So what if some Jewish leaders don't recognize the Armenian Genocide? Shame on them, each and every one of them. Many of them don't recognize the Rwandan Genocide, the Cambodian Genocide, the Sudanese Genocide, and think the Holocaust is its own entity that no one else can share such a victim role. Yossi Beilin, Israel's former Deputy Foreign Minister and Education Minister however (along with many other Jewish leaders), acknowledged the Armenian Genocide and he had it implemented in Israel's education system, he castigated leaders like Shimon Peres who are so shamelessly insensitive to the victims.

"It was not war. It was most certainly massacre and genocide, something the world must remember... We will always reject any attempt to erase its record, even for some political advantage." Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister. April 27, 1994 on the floor of the Knesset in response to a TV interview of the Turkish Ambassador

Them saying so doesn't make it true, especially Bernard Lewis who once called the Genocide the "Armenian Holocaust" in his 1962 book.--MarshallBagramyan 05:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

With regard to Bernard Lewis, that's the difference between a researcher and an obsessive "genocide" zealot. Researchers don't treat the subject as religious dogma, they do go after the facts, collect more data, and might change their opinion, whenever they realize that the facts point to the other direction. I laugh at these users here who see themselves as authority asking not to believe Bernard Lewis, a distinguished Princeton professor, fellow of American Academy Arts and Sciences and British Royal Academy, but to believe them. Get real please!24.211.192.250 13:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Its not just some Jewish leaders, its the leaders that matter who reject those absurd claims and thats what counts! lutherian 05:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Theirs saying so doesn't make it true. Great example of a logical fallacy though.--MarshallBagramyan 05:29, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you partially, and disagree with some points. I disagree that the photos can possibly demonstrate anything. Find any major historical event since the invention of the camera, and I'll show you some rather silly faked photos. Just because faked photos exist does not say anything about the authenticity of the event itself, and trying to draw that connection is POV original research. On the other hand, you bring up a valid point about the image source. With no information whatsoever, it is definatly hard to make a case for its inclusion in this article (or any). --InShaneee 01:26, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

And uh, where's the proof that Armenians fabricated this? - or is this another Turkish attempt to portray Armenians as falsifiers of a picture of a man that almost had no relevance to the Armenian Genocide and thus the point of such a fabrication eludes one's mind. If you want fabricators, I'll show the more shameful examples by Turks who embellish historical evidence that corrborated the existence of an intentional widespread massacre:

Here is a quote by a supposed Turkish historian named Enver Zia Karal in a book or pamphlet called the “Armenian Question: (1878-1923) in p.22. He falsifies a quote by a Major General James G. Harbord who was sent by the United States to investigate the claims of the Genocide in 1919-1920.

“Meanwhile, the Armenian, unarmed at the time of the deportations, a brave soldier by thousands in the armies of Russia, France, and America, is still unarmed and safe in a land where every man but himself need to carry a rifle.”

Now, the real quote:

“Meanwhile, the Armenian, unarmed at the time of the deportations and massacres, a brave soldier by thousands in the armies of Russia, France, and America, is still unarmed in a land where every man but himself carries a rifle.”

Found at: U.S. Congress, 66th Congress, 2nd Session. Major General James G. Harbord, “Conditions in the Near East: Report of the American Military Mission to Armenia.” Washington D.C. 1920. p.11

Note the ommissions of the word "massacres" and the allusion that Armenians had an abundance of weaponry while others didn't. Just a very minor example of falsification, but I have many more by Turkish so-called historians which constantly distort the quotations to portray the events of 1915 as a nonevent.--MarshallBagramyan 01:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, right now, Thoth and Neurobio were the ones spamming it, and I felt that I this talkpage was left to them, a copypasting war would have resulted. Fad (ix) 22:22, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Deconstructing revisionism and preserving the neutrality of this article

Well, the state of this article forced me to return. As the author of TAT was patiently waiting the occasion to hit once more. For the interested, here I evidence with my merging test that Deepblue06 and 24,211,192,250 are indeed the same users. Obviously Holdwater(the author of TAT), who in the past was also known under his other Misplaced Pages login User:Torque. Deepblue06 and 24,211,192,250 have been used one after the other to escape 3RR block.

Isen't it amazing that I quit and soon after the page is respammed by materials which have mostly been addressed?

Neuro, I like when you use the term forgery, since I shall now show you few example of forgeries you brought yourself in the very same page.

Lets first deal with the picture of Ataturk with the dead body, which is said to be an Armenian forgery. Is it so? The picture in question was exibited to announce a conference about Denial, 'The Face of Denial.' The picture is indeed photoshoped, but it never was claimed to be an original, the photoshoped version is symbolic. Ataturk staying there represent the modern republic of Turkey, which is totally indifferent regarding the body of the dead child there. The child which was photoshoped and merged to Ataturks famous picture with the little dog, is one of the most famous picture used in published media. One of the pictures taken by Wegner. It is widelly available on the web.

The title actually say it well, 'The Face of Denial.' Forgery imply an intent to mislead. While this was a 'collage' a work of art, a marging which was symbolic. Turkaya Ataov was totally clueless, and I wonder how it could have been interpreted the way Ataov interpreted it, an interpretation which you recycled.

Comming to 'Hovhannes Katchaznouni' 'admissions,' this has been already addressed by me after it has been posted, follow my reply.

Comming to your 'brand new' translation from Bolshevik Zakavkazya. You are quite fluent in Turkish I must say, since it does not concord with the original Russian version but rather the tainted Turkish version provided by Mehmet Perincek.

You claim that according to Boghos Nubar there was between 300,000 to 400,000 Armenians who have died and you claim having the document from French archive. Be glad to provide it to me, it'll be nice, since Boghos Nubar provides over a million. See for example, footnote number 21 in this article.

You also claim that ASALA assassinate over 200, while unrelated to the article, feel free to provide the relevant materials to support such a claim.

Here, I won't even bother addressing 24.211.192.250 who knows I have addressed the many fabricated quotes which he present in his website, and thinking I have left has used the occasion to recycle them here once more.

But just for the sake of it, I shall maybe raise Bronsart cases, which is recycled again and over again, just to show what sort of materials revisionists rely on.

Let see his admission of the Armenian destruction in closed doors. “Namely, the Armenian is just like the Jew, a parasite outside the confines of his homeland, sucking off the marrow of the people of the host country. Year after year they abandon their native land—just like the Polish Jews who migrate to Germany—to engage in usurious activities. Hence the hatred which, in a medieval form, has unleashed itself against them as an unpleasant people, entailing their murder.” (A. A. Bonn. Goppert Papers (Nachlass), vol. VI, file 5 (files 1-8), p. 4, February 10,1919). I shall for now exclude the many other 'interesting' thing about the man.

But, let provide other examples of forgeries 24.211.192.250 provides, which he knows them to be forgeries, since I corrected him in the past and he still recycle them.

Cited from Mikael Varandean, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun." The quote presented does not exist, I have provided him the content of the pages from which it supposedly come from, the work is on two volume, and it is neither in one nor the other on the page mentioned(and I see now that he just removed the page), but neither is it anywhere in both of those volumes.

Grace H. Knapp, The Tragedy of Bitlis, Fleming H. Revell Co., New York (1919) , page 146. This is one of the most infamious distortion, this book from one cover to the other relate to the destruction of the Armenians in Bitlis. Shall I quote from the book about what was happenong the the Armenians?

Other forgeries? Well, Nikolayev supposed reports originating from the Ottoman archives, part of the supposed Russian records prepared by the Ottoman Empire, like General Mayewski 'report' presented by Major Mehmet Sadik who was an intelligence officier at the General Staff Department II engaged in literaly fabricating Russian reports to justify the decision taken against the Armenians. So, it isen't surprising that the said memoir of Tatiana Karameli which you present only exist in Turkish and found in Ottoman archive listed also in the series 'dismissing' the Armenian massacres.

Forgeries you say? I can load the talk page with example of forgeries, non existing quotes, not only comming from TAT site, but also academics of the Turkish republic. And believe me, this reply was rather short, considering the many worthyness of the copypasting job made by Holdwater under yet again, another pseudonym. Fad (ix) 20:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Who's this clown? From the post, I understand that this guy has a history of issues. 24.211.192.250 20:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a reason you enjoy call people names while remaining under the shroud of an anonymous user?--MarshallBagramyan 21:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You know who is this clown(me). I thought the evidences I have provided would be enough, but obviously it wasn't for you.

On 10 May, 16:59, Deepblue06 makes the edit on PKK being terrorist, he is reverted, the next contribution you make then, is to reinsert it and fight over it(the same day). The same day at 23:20 Deepblue06 again makes his edits over the Armenian genocide page, regarding the reasons why the US does not officially recognize it, this after, you the same day have fought over it and was reverted. 40 minutes after his edit, you revert back to the same version, switching reverts to not be blocked for 3RR. Everytime you were there for days, Deepblue06 was not, with few exceptions which are much telling. Here are the exceptions, 10 May, which was the day Deepblue06 registered. And 4 June, 4 June, you reported the arguments I and Thoth had, it would have been a suicide for Deepblue06 to do it, which explains why you did it. You also on that date reported it on Deepblue06 page at 18:06, and Deepblue06 reported it to another user at 18:27 claiming it was posted on his talkpage. Which is 20 minutes after it was reported to him and 7-8 hours after the last Deepblue06 contribution that day. You reported it also to CoolCat, who you knew is for months attempting to find any evidences to Arbcom me. You know CoolCat cases, my cases, Thoth etc., but now, you ignore this clown(me). June 4 was your last post until June 17, and what is June 17? It is one day (actually 4 hours and 40 minutes) after DeepBlue said he left Misplaced Pages. Your first contribution under this IP is on September 18, 2005. You could not have missed the clown. I guess I'll recieve a warning if I say that you are Holdwater. Fad (ix) 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I have all along been right about Holdwater. Fad (ix) 22:03, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Hey, buddy, I understand you've some issues with me. I did not waste my time to read your pseduo-dedective story. If you've any evidence that proves something, report it to admins and get me banned. Otherwise, stop crying and don't fill this page with your nonsense. 24.211.192.250 22:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Report you? Who talked about reporting anyone? I'll leave that to you, both with your DeepBlue06 alias and this IP, you know I don't like reporting people, don't you? Who would have thought, I always thought that you were Lutherian socks, I guess my absence served for something, had it been not of your copypast job from TAT, I would have never guessed that Lutherian was not Holdwater, and my first suspicion was true. Lutherian was not alone adding TAT site in the article, you did that yourself as evidenced by your log, something which I would never have checked had you not posted your stuff over here. A merging test when effectivally including a correlative assessement is more accurate than Checkusers(Checkusers can be fooled by open proxies). This indeed confirms both of you are the same users. Again, I propose you to read what is there carefully, evading 3RR is not good, also, while you reported another user for incivility (with both of your accounts) to InShaneee, I have been blocked for three days for less than your above slanders. But I will not be playing cheap here. Fad (ix) 01:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

wait im a bit confused here, who am I accused of being now? lutherian 06:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry, you aren't accused of anything... perhaps, for now. ;) Fad (ix) 16:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Fadix's bold claims about evidence, proof and forgery are quite impressive. However, the first stunning image of soldiers standing by a pile of dead bodies still remains clueless. I wonder what he had to say about an image uploaded from Armeniapedia, which is definetely, looking the issue from a certain point of view. InShaneee calls these sites as propaganda sites. Without certain references and evidences, I urge the administration to remove that image, which constitutes a clear bias to a newcomer to the article.

PS: Newcomers to the discussion page, like Fadix, please do not try to change the direction of the discussion which have been formed for a certain time by spamming the page with lots of irrelevant information for the moment. I said : for the moment. Thanks

I already removed that picture in the past, it isen't a famous picture, most probably an Armenian contigent of the Tsar army in the Easter zone killed in a battle, and which the Turkish soldiers dressing of their uniform. It was costum during a defeat during those periods to do that. I already proposed its removal, I don't think it represent a genocide photo. Fad (ix) 22:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Fadix, please do not edit my comments by dividing them into half, and posting your comment in between. By saying that `I already proposed its removal` you sound like you are an authority. If you read my comment you will not see a direct proposition to you about the removal. Anyone who spends a mere half an hour in the archive pages (let alone your personal blocks) can understand your biased position to the subject. So please do not act like this. This is a common page, and I propose it to the community.

Thanks USer : Sokrateskerem

I am user : sokrateskerem, and I will sign my post as soon as I get unblocked.

I removed that picture myself, before it was reverted long time ago, I also agreed to its removal in the archive. I will not bring back things there. CoolCat placed a tag for deletion for my replacement picture while it was sourced, and while I was out of Misplaced Pages, it was deleted without my consent, if you read the archive, you will see that Cansin, the Turk with whom I discussed and I agreed that the picture which I requested to replace this one was indeed sourced. I do not own this article, it is very difficult to work on it, when from one side, there is Thoth who discuss about anything but the article and others like Neurobio. Also, about my biases, while I may be biased in the talkpage, you should judge my contributions according to the edits in the articles mainspace. Everyone here or anywhere else in Misplaced Pages are probably biased about a subject, but unlike some who will register an account to pretend to be an uninvolved party, I do not deny being Armenian, neither do I deny having a POV about the issue. What I deny though, is that my contribution in the articles mainspace is biased. This I deny. Fad (ix) 01:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

External links are not an excuse for linkspam

Even with the duplicate and irrelevant links I removed, there are a great many links of doubtful relevance. Why should readers care what a columnist in the Hindustan Times says in his blog ? What relevance does Time Magazine's fuckup have ? Why link to websites whose authors are anonymous cowards (as they say on /.) ? Why should anyone care what the city of Ryde, New South Wales does or doesn't do ? No doubt there are more links of minimal relevance. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:00, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but it's better to seek some consensus before unilaterally deleting the ones that you deem irrelevant. 24.211.192.250

This issue was discussed in the past, I for that reason created a page just for the resources. I am unconfortable with links, maybe only official organizations or something such? If it was of me, no Misplaced Pages articles will have links as references, encyclopedia articles should be written from research on the published materials available, not from some blog. Fad (ix) 16:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

are you still in the midst of departure or did you change your mind? ure a funny guy lutherian 18:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I know. It would have been selfish of me to let this article be ruinated by Holdwater and his socks. BTW, out of subject, just to tell you that I really like your humour, the kind of guy I hang up with. :) Fad (ix) 18:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the first picture

Plain and simple, it is not a famous picture, it is of questionable provenence as what it really is. I will find a replacement for it. Fad (ix) 18:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)