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Criticism of Soka Gakkai: suggested edit

I think this page should be re-activated - either as a separate entry or as a section of the SG entry. Perhaps it could be renamed "Controversies", which is more in line with similar parts of the entries of other religions.

The SGI and Soka Gakkai have been a focus of criticism and controversy. Soka Gakkai, the Japanese organization, has a reputation for involvement in Japan's political arena. Though officially the two are separate, it is closely affiliated with the New Clean Government Party (also known as the New Komeito Party), a major political party in Japan. Accusations that Soka Gakkai in effect controls New Komeito persist; Soka Gakkai and New Komeito both publicly deny any relationship, and declare that they are separate organizations.

Soka Gakkai and Soka Gakkai International are perceived by some critics to be a cult or a cult-like group. Their concerns are that, in the past, Soka Gakkai had placed an emphasis on recruitment, that it demonizes perceived opponents, and that it uses phobia indoctrination and peer pressure. French and Belgian anti-cult movements and parliamentary commissions have also accused SGI of engaging in cult-like practices, but there are groups critical of these governments citing they are religiously suppressive.[3 ] Another point of contention concerns SGI's application of the mentor–disciple concept. According to Soka Gakkai, the mentor-and-disciple relationship is a very important aspect of living a full life, for every human being; detractors see SGI’s version of the mentor–disciple relationship as a cult of personality for its intense focus on SGI President Ikeda. SGI defenders argue that in most cultures, and for most human beings, the idea of looking to those who have come before us, and finding a person who one can feel a kinship with, that one may look to as an example for how to live s life, for guidance, encouragement and support, is a common part of human development, and that their establishing a lasting relationship with such an individual is an important part of life. (no citation for either argument, but it seems okay to me) .

There is controversy about the degree of religious tolerance practiced by Soka Gakkai members. Official materials state all other religions, including other Buddhist denominations, are viewed as valuable in as much as they are able to support the happiness, empowerment, and development (needs citation) of all people. SGI claims that religious tolerance and a deep respect for culture are strongly emphasized in the organization. However, there has been an acrimonious rift between SGI and Nichiren Shoshu. There are doctrinal differences between the Soka Gakkai and other Nichiren Sects – as might be expected between different religions. Other sects place great emphasis on the special efficacy of certain religious objects, while the Soka Gakkai teaches that lreligion should serve life (ref: Strand, Clark Waking the Buddha p. 61), and so is less doctrinaire in its application of Nichiren’s teachings.

As you will see if you compare to the original (here)I removed a few paragraphs - I hope you will agree they are redundant and only re-state what has already been said. There wwere a couple of suggestion, concerning peace activities and theology, which I would have added, but I had asked for clarification on them, and got no reply, and don't want to try to expound on something I don't have a good grasp of. --Daveler16 (talk) 19:41, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

OK, this is decent. Let's combine this with the "Public perception and criticism" section. Shii (tock) 00:20, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

To the Administrators: As I stated in my first post, my niece is a Soka Gakkai member and I just happened to look it up on Misplaced Pages a few months ago. I was shocked by the extremely negative depiction in the entry. My niece has co-workers, neighbors, friends and other family members who know she is a Soka Gakkai member and I am concerned that if they look it up on Misplaced Pages, they will be alarmed and put off by what they read. It is not fair to any member of the Soka Gakkai to slant the entry to the extreme, i.e. fascist, militant, cult, etc. without an opposing view. It is what I believe to be an injustice that keeps me involved here. I am not sure, but it sounds like the administrators are willing to reach a common ground. I have been researching the activities of the Soka Gakkai and SGI on their web pages and am overwhelmed by their engagement in peace activities, nuclear disarmament, women, gay and human rights and educational exhibits and more. There are hundreds of examples of a respectable, concerned and energetic organization doing great things. I urge you review what I have seen at the following sites. http://www.sgi-sa.org/aboutsgi/about/docs/Activity_Report-2013.pdf http://www.sgi.org/news/all-news.html?start=0 WmSimpson (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

You need secondary sources talking about all the great things the group has done. The group's own PR is not suitable for Misplaced Pages. Shii (tock) 22:19, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

FWIW, I am getting the shortish article from the 2014 Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism and a shorter article from the 2004 Macmillan Encyclopedia of Buddhism prepared on Word, and may be able to send them out as e-mails to anyone who sends me an e-mail so I can forward the articles to them. Well regarded reference sources tend to be among the better indicators of what we might include in our own articles. John Carter (talk) 23:26, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

John Carter: I would like those (I posted my email to your talk). Encyclopedias, I imagine, would be fairly obkective sources, wouldn't they? --Daveler16 (talk) 14:59, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

This is a great idea, thank you. I've created a new intro using other encyclopedias:

Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” It follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. The Soka Gakkai traces its start to 1930 in Japan, when its founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi (1871–1944), published his educational work “Value-Creating Pedagogical System.” By 1941 it grew to some 3,000 members but its refusal to support Shintoism during World War II resulted in its near destruction by governmental authorities; founder Makiguchi was imprisoned and died in custody during the war..

The Soka Gakkai has grown rapidly since the 1950s under the leadership of its second and third presidents, Josei Toda and Daisaku Ikeda . It is considered the most successful of the many religious movements that emerged in Japan after the war. In 2003 its membership approximated 8,210,000 households in Japan and 1,500,000 individuals outside of Japan.It shared an association with the Japanese Buddhist school Nichiren shō-shū but the two organizations separated in 1991. (Encyclopedia Britannica). Nichiren Shoshu preserves the tradition of Buddhist priests and temples whereas Soka Gakkai members are led by lay leaders and gather at numerous community centers throughout the world. Followers claim its well-organized, colorful, and well-organized structure is the future of Buddhism..

The core of the Soka Gakkai’s religious practice emphasizes chanting the mantra Nam-myoho-renge-kyo(daimoku), propagation efforts through personal contacts(shakubuku), and study. Its main goal is “kosen rufu,” or the spreading of Buddhist ideals to promote peace and happiness in society. Members participate in neighborhood discussion meetings; the organization organizes cultural, educational, and humanitarian activities and is also an NGO (nongovernmental organization) affiliated with the United Nations. (The Encyclopedia of Religion and Society).

The Soka Gakkai formed the Japanese Komeito political party in the 1950’s and it was criticized extensively by political rivals. The Soka Gakkai was also criticized for its aggressive proselytization in the 1950’s and 1960’s, the period of its explosive growth. Starting in the 1970’s the Soka Gakkai began broadening its cooperative activities, expanded its outlook to an international scope, better adapting itself to pluralistic democracy. In the 1980’s Daisaku Ikeda began a series of dialogues with prominent leaders throughout the world and more organizations have constructed friendly relations with the Soka Gakkai. Members of the Soka Gakkai are encouraged to take personal initiative, to actively involve themselves in the community, and achieve personal happiness in their daily lives. ] (talk) 18:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The more sources the merrier, of course, but this is a complex topic that exceeds the bounds of Buddhism, reaching into the sociology of religion, politics and religion, corruption, etc.

Misplaced Pages leads are a summary of what is in the article.

The lead of this article reflects the consensus with respect to what is in the article. We've been through this before with people trying to add material to the lead that isn't in the article, etc.

Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia with limited space, so the articles can--and probably should--contain any and everything reflected in RS presented here. Other encyclopedia's can be good study guide for some things, but they are generally substantially different from Misplaced Pages.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 18:50, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

To an extent I agree with the above, but only to an extent. The comment seems to me to suppose that we are not a paper encyclopedia (which is freely granted) so we don't have the limits they have in terms of article content but it seems to me to possibly ignore the equally important fact that as we are not a paper encyclopedia we can have much more extensive coverage over multiple articles than those printed reference sources do. The criteria for a separate article here are also much lower than they are for print sourees. That being the case we can probably do a better job in having a larger number of more focused articles than many print sources have provided they all meet notability requirements of course. I personally agree that I would like to see more content on the cultural and social impact of any number of groups in our articles along the lines of the articles in a recent Worldmark reference book I made a list of artices from at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/Encyclopedic articles. At the same time though if (and I don't know this one way or another) another reference source has a good neutral article uch longer and significantly more detailed than our own, it might be difficult to say that we should eliminate data it covers from our articles in favor of other data it doesn't cover, other than perhaps recent changes and such]]. John Carter (talk) 19:21, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The problem with this article in particular is that it straddles so many topical areas, most of which are interrelated and should be examined in a mutually complimentary manner so as to shed light on the organization in its many aspects and evolution from what it was to what it has become.

I'm not an expert on SGK, but have substantial knowledge about Japanese religion in general. As far as the significance of SGK to Japanese religion goes, it's negligible. The Nichiren sect is a thousand years old, and though SGK has origins in resistance to State Shinto theological authoritarianism, Nichiren Buddhism's primary teaching relates to (末法、Mappo, Later Day of the Law) of the Three Ages of Buddhism. In that sense, it can be seen as a Buddhist form of "end of days" millenarianism in some ways, though I don't see it as being apocalyptic. There is not a single mention of that in the article. On the other hand, the Three Ages of Buddhism and Nichiren Buddhism, as well as The Three Treasures are all articles that you might want to add to the list your compiling.

SGK in its present form has less of a relation to Nichiren Buddhism than when it started, as far as I can tell, and has based its organizational ethos on a blatant attack against an even more fundamental aspect of Buddhism, which is monasticism, as I mentioned earlier. They try to portray their organization as a reaction to elitism in the priest caste, but that is only partly admissible. Nichiren Buddhism is only one sect among many long-established sects, but the SGK attack on Buddhist monasticism is practically an attack on all forms of Buddhism.

At any rate, WP:NOTFORUM, and my main point is to show that the topic is rather complex, multifaceted and sprawling. Any attempt to limit material would seem to contradict core policies. :::The creation of spin-off articles might be an option to consider, but would take a considerable amount of work. I don't think Misplaced Pages has the scope to undertake such work itself, and it may just have to wait until better sources are published in English that examine the topic in more detail at the scholarly level.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 04:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget that most of the academic publications about Soka Gakkai are about its relationship with Komeito and the possible problems this poses for Japanese society. Shii (tock) 10:46, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I haven't researched the organization or come across any books on them. But that would make sense, because first, they are basically outside of mainstream Buddhism, no matter what the people that have come into contact with the group in the USA, etc., might think, and there doesn't appear to be anything in terms of doctrine that has theological import to Buddhism. So the main focus is on their political impact. They represent a substantial voting block, on the one hand, and they are aligned with the reactionary LDP, which was installed by the CIA after WWII drawing mainly from individuals that were to be tried for war crimes (see Robert Whiting's Tokyo Underworld for an introduction to that history), on the other hand. That presents a bit of a contradiction from the early history of protest against the same people in power during the period of militarism connected to State Shinto and their collaboration with the LDP, the current PM being the grandson of Nobusuke Kishi (see Kishi and Corruption: An Anatomy of the 1955 System), for example.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 17:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I think that's a really good intro, following up on someone else's idea of using encyclopedias as sources. I don't see what anyone could argue with. As far as it's foreshadowing the rest of the article - it does do that exactly, without getting into minutiae. I think it's fine. --Daveler16 (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

One person's "minutiae" are to another person a major component of the article. I think the current intro is better. Shii (tock) 01:37, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Shii: what I mean is that the entry doesn't have to be a forum for argument. Currently it's "something nice/denial" and "positive statement/argument with positive statement". This new proposal eliminates that and, in my opinion, makes the intro (at least) more consistent with the tone of entries for other sects. I think also we have been discussing putting all the criticism in one place, either in its own section in this entry or in its own entry. In that case, it wouldn't have to be peppered throughout, and a reader could get an idea of the SG's actual beliefs and practices, before exploring what other people think is wrong with those beliefs and practices. This goes also to Ubikwit's latest comment: you seem to continue to want to describe SG as it compares to other schools; but I think those arguments would be more appropriate on the entries for those schools, since they are more about those schools. The new intro is, I believe, quite appropriate for this entry. --Daveler16 (talk) 23:27, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

SGK is not a sect of Buddhism. It is classified as a "Japanese New Religion" by some scholars, at most. Show me an academic source that describes them as a "sect" of Buddhism.

Why don't you try to expand the section on "Beliefs and practices". For example, try describing the content of the book that is considered "canonical"

Ikeda, has produced certain writings which have acquired a canonical status within Sōka Gakkai, such as Ikeda's book "Human Revolution", which in some ways sets it apart from its former parent organization

It's very odd to have zero explication of such a text on a page of this sort.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 03:31, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I've tried a new intro, below in the next section. It uses a few encyclopedias as sources (Thank you, John Carter). --Daveler16 (talk) 15:57, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

New edited Intro

Soka Gakkai (Japanese: 創価学会?) is a Japanese lay Nichiren Buddhist movement affiliated with Soka Gakkai International (SGI) which has, by its own account, 12 million members in 192 countries and territories around the world. Like other Nichiren sects, the Soka Gakkai reveres the Lotus Sutra and considers repeatedly chanting its title, Nam-myoho-renge-kyo as the correct fundamental Buddhist practice. Unlike other Nichires sects, it has no priests or monks.

Soka Gakkai, and the SGI have been described as "the world's largest Buddhist lay group and America's most diverse". While the organization has been crticized (link to new entry here), it has received recognition for its peace activism, as well as its adaptating of Buddhist principles to addressing real life issues in the 21st Century.(1)

The movement was founded by educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and Jōsei Toda in 1930 as a lay organization belonging to the Nichiren Shōshū Buddhist denomination. After a temporary disbandment during World War II when much of the leadership was imprisoned on charges of lèse-majesté, the membership base was expanded to a claimed figure of 750,000 households by the time of Toda's death in 1958, compared to 3,000 before the end of the war.

Further expansion of the movement was led by its third president Daisaku Ikeda, who began for the organization's international expansion in 1960. --70.181.118.149 (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this suggested revision is more reasonable and current. 66.214.252.44 (talk) 19:59, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Here is something incorporating the research of various encyclopedias:

Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. It is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan with 8 or more million members and an additional 4 million members in other countries. “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” The organization follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. The Soka Gakkai traces its start to 1930 in Japan, when its founder, Tsunesaburo Makiguchi (1871– 1944), published his educational work “Value-Creating Pedagogical System.” By 1941 it grew to some 3,000 members but its refusal to support Shintoism during World War II resulted in its near destruction by governmental authorities; founder Makiguchi was imprisoned during the war on charges of lese majeste for refusing to cooperate with government policies promoting State Shinto.--Daveler16 (talk) 20:30, 10 July 2014 (UTC) He died .while in custody.

The Soka Gakkai has grown rapidly since the 1950s under the leadership of its second and third presidents, Josei Toda and Daisaku Ikeda. It is considered the most successful of the many religious movements that emerged in Japan after the war. In the early postwar years it was accused of overzealous propagation. It shared an association with the Japanese Buddhist school Nichiren shō-shū but the two organizations separated in 1991 when Nikken, the 67th priest of Nichiren shō-shū, excommunicated the Soka Gakkai after unsuccessfully attempting to bring the Soka Gakkai under his direct control. Nichiren Shoshu preserves the tradition of Buddhist priests and temples whereas Soka Gakkai members are led by lay leaders and gather at numerous community centers throughout the world. Followers claim its well-organized, colorful, and well-organized structure is the future of Buddhism.. Some anticult authors have included the Soka Gakkai on their lists of cults.

The core of the Soka Gakkai’s religious practice emphasizes chanting the mantra Nam-myoho-renge-kyo(daimoku), propagation efforts through personal contacts(shakubuku), and study. Its main goal is “human revolution,” a profound inner transformation within an individual and “kosen rufu,” the spreading of Buddhist ideals to promote peace and happiness in society. Members participate in neighborhood discussion meetings; the organization organizes cultural, educational, and humanitarian activities including the founding of schools, universities, museums, and research facilities. It is also an NGO (nongovernmental organization) affiliated with the United Nations.

The Soka Gakkai formed the Japanese Komeito political party in the 1950’s which was criticized extensively by political rivals. The Soka Gakkai was also criticized for its aggressive proselytization in the 1950’s and 1960’s, the period of its explosive growth. Starting in the 1970’s the Soka Gakkai began broadening its cooperative activities, expanded its outlook to an international scope, better adapting itself to pluralistic democracy. In the 1980’s Daisaku Ikeda began a series of dialogues with prominent leaders throughout the world and more organizations have constructed friendly relations with the Soka Gakkai. Members of the Soka Gakkai are encouraged to take personal initiative, to actively involve themselves in the community, and achieve personal happiness in their daily lives.

--Daveler16 (talk) 15:54, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

I like most of this but the first paragraph does not accord to WP:MOSBEGIN. It should be a brief summary of the whole article for those in a hurry. Also, as an intro it is a bit too long. Shii (tock) 19:30, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Looked at the guidelines, came up with this for the first paragraph:

Soka Gakkai is a modern lay Buddhist movement. It is the largest Buddhist sect in Japan with 8 or more million members and an additional 4 million members in other countries. “Soka Gakkai” translates as “Value-Creation Society.” The organization follows the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin (1222–82), a Japanese monk who crafted a reinterpretation of Buddhism based on the Lotus Sutra. Since its founding in1930, The Soka Gakkai has been the object of a lot of criticism and even persecution. Unlike other Nichiren sects, Soka Gakkai does not have a class of priests, and its emphasis is on the practitioner rather than dogma.

--Daveler16 (talk) 21:51, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I think this is mostly good, and I'll see if we can try to replace the current lead. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources but most of the claims being made are found in the article anyway. Shii (tock) 23:47, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree, and this is not the standard process by which a lead is written. It does not reflect the content of the article in a summary manner.

Furthermore, the Sokka Gakkai is not a sect, it is a lay movement. See ].--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 03:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

I am quite impressed by the progress that has been made since I last dropped into the Talk page. First of all, I think you editors are actually quite lucky. I've been working on a couple of other controversial articles, Gulen Movement and Gulen Movement Schools. There is hardly any action on the Talk page and I feel lonely and way too powerful.

Let me make a few comments and then I will disappear for a few weeks. Ubikwit, there is a history here that you may not know. The Soka Gakkai page was the victim of constant edit warring. The result was an article that obviously curdled milk for some people. I was the one who swooped in and made the suggestion to start with the lead paragraphs and draw information from neutral encyclopedias. I think you are right that this is not typical for Misplaced Pages. But I think it is a good model for other pages that are controversial and locked down.

It seems a lot of the warring editors have locked their guns in the gun cabinet and started to collaborate. I can see a lot of research obviously took place, a lot of Talk page, and the result is not perfect but a passable good start.

I suggest that you guys keep plowing through the rest of the article, paragraph by paragraph, and create an article that encompasses all viewpoints. Please, try to avoid power struggles; if you enjoy constant fighting, get married.

I'd like to invite everyone to visit my pages and provide me feedback.

FetullahFan (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

I must admit I'm mystified why it is so vitally important to some that the word "sect" not be used to describe the SG. I don't know how the SG describes itself - it seems to me I've seen "organization", "movement", and "sect". But I do know that the word "sect" is defined in more than one dictionary as an offshoot of a larger religious circle (and the SG is certainly that) and that the Misplaced Pages definition of "sect" has a link to "Buddhist", and the SG is listed there. Since the practice of the SG entails a religious ritual, it has to be characterized somehow as a "religion" don't you agree? And so, a "sect"? All that being said, I have no objection to the words "movement" or "organization". As I say, I'm still not clear on why it's so urgently vital. --Daveler16 (talk) 23:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

In recent religious stueies the word has come to be used for groups who see the prospect of ultimate or highest salvation or equivalent to be available exclusively to its numbers. Having said that, if that point is equally clear without the word itself, I can't myself object to removing it. John Carter (talk) 23:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

History edit

History Makiguchi: 1930-1944 Tsunesaburō Makiguchi, First President of the Sōka Gakkai Foundation

The Soka Gakkai officially traces it foundation to November 1930, when educators Tsunesaburō Makiguchi and his colleague Jōsei Toda published the first volume of Makiguchi's magnum opus on educational reform, Sōka Kyōikugaku Taikei (創価教育学体系, The System of Value-Creating Pedagogy).:49

The first general meeting of the organisation, then under the name Sōka Kyōiku Gakkai (創価教育学会, lit. "Value Creating Educational Society"), did not take place until 1937. The group was a lay organization affiliated with the Nichiren Shoshu, by that time a small and obscure Nichiren Buddhist sect. Makiguchi, who had turned to religion in mid-life, found much in Nichiren's teachings that lent support to his educational theories, though it has been argued that the sect's doctrines and rituals went against the grain of Makiguchi's modernist spirit.:21–32 From the very first meeting, however, the main activity of the group seems to have been missionary work for Nichiren Shōshū, rather than propagating educational reform. The membership eventually came to change from teachers interested in educational reform to people from all walks of life, drawn by the religious elements of Makiguchi's beliefs in Nichiren Buddhism.:14

Excised:--Daveler16 (talk) 03:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC) "In a 1933 publication by this group, Makiguchi explained one of his educational principles: "We must make our children thoroughly understand that loyal service to their sovereign is synonymous with love of country."" because it is completely irrelevant. The academic validity of the source (fn24, Victoria) has been called into question by at least 2 reviewers (Metraux, and Kirchner and Sato).

Excised: "hekkeko" don't neeed Japanese wordds in an English entyry when there are suffucuent English words --70.181.118.149 (talk) 17:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2014

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

This page is heavily biased in favor of criticisms that have been written about the Soka Gakkai from critics with often vested motives. This page could easily described as "Criticism of Soka Gakkai" rather than an objective description of Soka Gakkai. I do not ask for all criticisms to be deleted. Instead I ask that some balance be restored to the page. The comments from some reputed observers, such as say Mikhail Gorbachev or Rabbi Abraham Cooper of the Simon Wiesenthal Center that used to exist on this page, but have since been deleted. I call for this page to be revamped, or at least put under articles that do not have a neutral pint of view. Thank you. 122.179.142.144 (talk) 18:50, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. The IP would appear to be an advocate, posting a list of "pro-" sources to support their pov, to the exclusion of "con-" sources..--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 19:05, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

1. Carson & Cerrito, Thomas & Joann (ed.). New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 13 (Second ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 298.
2. Doniger, ed. (1999). Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions. Merriam-Webster. p. 1020.
3. Jones, Lindsay, ed. (2005). Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 12 (2nd ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 8508. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)
4. Ellwood, Robert S., ed. (2007). The Encyclopedia of World Religions, Revised kEdition. DWJ Books LLC. p. 427.
5. Stone, Jacqueline (2004). Buswell, Jr., Robert (ed.). Encyclopedia of Buddhism (Vol. 2 ed.). Thomson Gale Macmillan Reference USA. p. 781.
6. Jones, Lindsay, ed. (2005). Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 12 (2nd ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 8508. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)
7. Jones, Lindsay, ed. (2005). Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 12 (2nd ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 8508. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)
8. Hammond & Machacek, Phillip E. and David W. (2010). Melton & Baumann, J. Gordon & Martin (ed.). Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices (Second ed.). ABC-CLIO. p. 2656. {{cite book}}: line feed character in |title= at position 57 (help)
9. Carson & Cerrito, Thomas & Joann (ed.). New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol 13 (Second ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 298.
10. Hammond & Machacek, Phillip E. and David W. (2010). Melton & Baumann, J. Gordon & Martin (ed.). Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices (Second ed.). ABC-CLIO. p. 2657.
11. Jones, Lindsay, ed. (2005). Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 12 (2nd ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 8508. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)
12. Doniger, ed. (1999). Merriam-Webster's Encyclopedia of World Religions. Merriam-Webster. p. 1020. {{cite book}}: line feed character in |title= at position 19 (help)
13. Hammond & Machacek, Phillip E. and David W. (2010). Melton & Baumann, J. Gordon & Martin (ed.). Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices (Second ed.). ABC-CLIO. p. 2656.
14. Buswell Jr. & Lopez Jr., Robert E. & Donald S., ed. (2013). The Princeton Dictionary of Buddhism.
15. Ellwood, Robert S., ed. (2007). The Encyclopedia of World Religions, Revised Edition. DWJ Books LLC. p. 427.
16. Zonta, Michela (1998). . Prometheus Books. ISBN 1-57392-222-6. {{cite book}}: Check |url= value (help)
17. Buswell, Robert E, ed. (2004). Encyclopedia of Buddhism. Macmillan Reference USA/Thomson/Gale.
18. Stone, Jacqueline (2004). [[Soka Gakkai|Buswell, Jr., Robert]] (ed.). Encyclopedia of Buddhism (Vol. 2 ed.). Thomson Gale Macmillan Reference USA. p. 781. {{cite book}}: line feed character in |editor1-link= at position 6 (help)
19. Hammond & Machacek, Phillip E. and David W. (2010). Melton & Baumann, J. Gordon & Martin (ed.). Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices (Second ed.). ABC-CLIO. p. 2656.
20. Jones, Lindsay, ed. (2005). Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol.12 (2nd ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 8508. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help); line feed character in |publisher= at position 8 (help)
21. Jones, Lindsay, ed. (2005). Encyclopedia of Religion, Vol. 12 (2nd ed.). Thomson Gale. p. 8508. {{cite book}}: More than one of |pages= and |page= specified (help)
22. Strand, Clark (2014). Waking the Buddha. Middleway. p. 74. ISBN 978-0-9779245-6-1.

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Sam 09:44, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Well the case is very simple as some editors have decided in the past to censor all criticism which was based on third party onions some SGI faithful find it hard to get third party opinions on how they would like to see the issue to be described except own descriptions. --Catflap08 (talk) 17:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Reverted rewrite

I removed a rewrite that contained:

• testimonies from Simon Wiesenthal Center and Mikhail Gorbachev (political testimony is an obsession peculiar to SGI; this sort of thing never appears on pages like Scientology or Mormonism)
• assertion that 1970 book I Denounce Soka Gakkai was full of lies, dubiously sourced to neutral account (if there was any inaccuracy in the book surely Soka Gakkai would have sued?)

I don't think this worthy of discussion. Shii (tock) 03:55, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

The problem with this page is that the entire page sounds like a criticism of the Soka Gakkai. Every single action of the Soka Gakkai is viewed from a highly politicized and scandalous viewpoint as presented by sections of Japanese society (such as ultra-nationalists) and media (tabloids like the Shukan Shincho). No attention of any kind is paid to more objective books like "Encountering the Dharma" by Richard Seager from Hamilton College, USA, and "A Public Betrayed" by Adam Gamble and Takeshi Watanabe. Information included within these sources can serve as a means to make this article more readable. A lot of the information in this article are quite simply rumor mongering and gossip. Despite all the criticisms of other religious movements of comparable religious movements like Mormonism or the Baha'i Faith, no other religious grouping is presented in such a negative light. This amounts to tremendous bias and prejudice on the part of the authors of this article or those who refuse to even consider adding some information to this article.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shatrunjaymall (talk • contribs)

No one is prohibiting you from adding new material. Just do so in a manner that adheres to basic editing policies.

Incidentally, the Soka Gakkai is a highly politicized organization, and nothing you say will change that fact, or the fact that the political dimensions of the group are addressed in multiple RS.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 11:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

@Shatrunjaymall It is easy to say the article sounds negative, but it is hard to say what could make it more balanced. The I Denounce Soka Gakkai incident, for example, is described in both of the books you mentioned. I do not see much difference between the way it is put in those books and how it is described on Misplaced Pages. If you disagree please help me improve the article. Shii (tock) 14:21, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Seeking clarification

Shi: Need some clarification. We have been discussing a new intro for quite some time, and last week you seemed to be accepting the one I proposed, to wit: "I think this is mostly good, and I'll see if we can try to replace the current lead." I wasn't sure if you would change it or if I should, so I waited almost a week, looked up what I could find about "semi-protected" status, and got the impression that I could do the edit. So the other night - nearly a week after your last comment - decided to go ahead and post it. Immediately the previous has been restored, so, thinking I had made a mistake, I tried again. My cjhange was removed again, so I checked View History. The first cancellation,apparently, was by someone named NeilN; he is a "master editor", but I can't figure out how to communicate directly with him. The second change was restored by you, with the comment "please continue to discuss these edits on the talk page". So my questions are: For how long must we discuss it? And with whom? Besides you and me, in over a week only one other person has commented and, judging from his or her previous posts, that person is a member of a rival sect (please correct me if I'm wrong, Ubikwit). When can the change be made?

Related: I made a mnor edit in a the History section, and I see that is gone too. I changed "... Nichiren Shoshu, by that time a small and obscure Nichiren Buddhist sect" to "AT that time...", since "by" gives the impression it had been larger and dwindled, so I think "at" is more accurate (and, coincidentally, more complimentary to Nichiren Shoshu).

I want to make changes that are positive, consistent with Misplaced Pages policy, and that will stick, so if you could clarify what the situation is in this particular case, I would appreciate it. --Daveler16 (talk) 19:31, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Ubikwit (talk · contribs) has made a good point about sect/group distinction, and evidently NeilN (talk · contribs) has some objections too. We should contact them to figure out the details; you can use their user talk pages. I approve of trying to rewrite the introduction in general but it needs to be consensus, not just your rewriting. (Keep in mind that there's WP:NORUSH. Let's hear everyone out.) Shii (tock) 21:25, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Request for clarifying details: when if ever has the Nichiren Shoshu been an other-than-smallish group, how much difference in size was there, over how much time, and how consequent is that on SG? I acknowledge the word "by" could coneivably be seen as indicating some sort of inevitable decline which could support "at" as preferable. Objections to "at" exist conceivably as well but don't seem to me anyway as serious being basically just the implication suggesting Nichiren Shoshu was at some time other-than-small. And:Request for clarifying details: when if ever has the Nichiren Shoshu been an other-than-smallish group, how much difference in size was there, over how much time, and how consequent is that on SG? I acknowledge the word "by" could coneivably be seen as indicating some sort of inevitable decline which could support "at" as preferable. Objections to "at" exist conceivably as well but don't seem to me anyway as serious being basically just the implication suggesting Nichiren Shoshu was at some time other-than-small. And I'm pinging both @Ubikwit: and @NeilN:. John Carter (talk) 21:39, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

@Daveler16: First of all, as I mentioned, Sokka Gakkai is not a sect, it is a laymen's group referred to as a "New Buddhist movement", as per Schools of Buddhism.

Bringing my religious affiliation into the discussion is off-topic, and doesn't merit further response.

I would recommend that you try to expand the article itself instead of focusing on the lead.--Ubikwit_{見学/迷惑} 11:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Do you agree that the lead should reflect the article? The second paragraph in particular is more of a characterization of SG. Shii (tock) 14:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Issues I had with the edit besides the obvious non-reference reference, grammar mistakes/typos and signature in article space:

• First paragraph is disjointed (common issue throughout text), especially this: "Since its founding in1930, The Soka Gakkai has been the object of a lot of criticism and even persecution. Unlike other Nichiren sects, Soka Gakkai does not have a class of priests, and its emphasis is on the practitioner rather than dogma."
• Second paragraph - too much detail.
• Third paragraph describes some practices but fourth paragraph is back to history.

The current lede is much more concise and cohesive. --NeilN 19:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

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