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Revision as of 16:50, 21 July 2014 editJim1138 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers297,704 edits →Edit warring rather than getting consensus: AN/I by Technophant← Previous edit Revision as of 17:11, 21 July 2014 edit undo2over0 (talk | contribs)17,247 edits →Ice Man and acupuncture: doneNext edit →
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This line in the lede: ''The tattoo marks identified on the Ice Man who died around 3300 BCE suggested that a form of stimulatory treatment resembling acupuncture developed independent of China.'' Seems to be rather speculative for lede material . Should it even be mentioned in the article at all? Also a photo caption in ] ] (]) 10:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC) This line in the lede: ''The tattoo marks identified on the Ice Man who died around 3300 BCE suggested that a form of stimulatory treatment resembling acupuncture developed independent of China.'' Seems to be rather speculative for lede material . Should it even be mentioned in the article at all? Also a photo caption in ] ] (]) 10:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:It is a wild hypothesis based on speculation rather than archaeological evidence. Image is completely unrelated to acupuncture and should be removed -] (]) 14:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC) :It is a wild hypothesis based on speculation rather than archaeological evidence. Image is completely unrelated to acupuncture and should be removed -] (]) 14:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
:: Agreed - removed both. - ] <small>(])</small> 17:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)


== Edit warring rather than getting consensus == == Edit warring rather than getting consensus ==

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Menopause syndroms

Commenting on the Chiu paper today, Steven Novella called the results "entirely negative" and concluded ..."A reasonable person can only conclude that acupuncture does not work, and that all the clinical research consistently shows that acupuncture conveys only illusory and nonspecific placebo effects for subjective symptoms."

Violation of WP:LEDE and WP:V

This change to the first sentence is a clear violation of WP:V and WP:NPOV policy.

"Acupuncture therapy is believed to have developed in China over thousands of years and refers to the stimulation of precisely defined, specific points on meridians (or channels) that lie along the surface of the body and within organs. Stimulation of acupoints can be accomplished through a variety of methods including application of heat, pressure, or laser or insertion of thin needles.1" The source does not support the change. QuackGuru (talk) 19:13, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

More original research added to the lede using a 2005 primary source. QuackGuru (talk) 20:08, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't see why acupressure should be the second sentence in the lede. It's way off topic. I removed the sentence and the ref. Perhaps an appropriate place in the body. Jim1138 (talk) 19:12, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
It is in the body under Acupuncture#Related practices using a systematic review. I have restored the other text that was deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 19:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
The restored text is appropriate. It is a feature of acupuncture practice that needles are not the only tool used to stimulate the points or channels.Herbxue (talk) 19:56, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
So that there is no "puncture" ? isn't that then something else? Alexbrn 20:06, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, depends on how we are defining acupuncture. In China it is referred to as 针灸 zhen jiu, literally "needles and moxibustion", and it is assumed that needling, moxa, cupping, gua sha, and other auxiliary techniques are performed by the acupuncturist.Herbxue (talk) 20:16, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Sounds like "针灸" connotes a broader concept than English "acupuncture". In English the word acupuncture means "A method of medical treatment, originating in China, in which fine needles are inserted into the skin at specific points on the body surface" (OED primary definition). Alexbrn 20:23, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

It would be misleading to claim that acupuncture uses only needles. Yes, I read up on acupuncture before I originally added the first sentence to the WP:LEDE. I also added the definition of traditional acupuncture to the lede. QuackGuru (talk) 20:43, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

The NHS says: "Acupuncture is a form of ancient Chinese medicine in which fine needles are inserted into the skin at certain points on the body". Alexbrn 20:48, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
It is also true that in the US, in most states the practice act defines the practice as needle insertion, though many states also include the auxiliary techniques. If the article were just about the specific procedure of needle stimulation then the narrow definition would fit, but the article has a broader scope. "Acupuncturists" are almost always trained in the auxiliary techniques, with moxa being considered by many as a primary technique with equal importance to needle insertion.Herbxue (talk) 20:58, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
(Add) And Ernst defines it as an "Insertion of a needle into the skin ...". We have a separate article on moxibustion. Alexbrn 21:00, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Indeed! While acupuncturists might normally do more than strict acupuncture, we have separate articles here. I don't expect Herbxue to reply, since he is now topic banned for six months. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:01, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
We have RS that acupuncture involves far more than needle insertion. It does not benefit the reader to alter the broader definition of acupuncture. QuackGuru (talk) 04:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
My dear QG, that's from possibly the fringey-est journal in the world. Wouldn't you say the NHS, the OED and Ernst are better? Alexbrn 05:38, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
It is common knowledge that acupuncture involves more than needles. Traditional acupuncture also involves more than needles. These are mundane claims. The current wording is correct and accurate. Shortening the definition would make the text factually incorrect. QuackGuru (talk) 05:47, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
It's not common knowledge. Sure, "what acupuncturists do" might include other things – but that's not the topic of this article. According to the strongest RS, acupuncture is needling into certain points on the body; a fringe journal defines "traditional" acupuncture (whatever that is) more broadly, citing a single Chinese source tellingly entitled "Acupuncture and moxibustion" (my emphasis). We need to follow the best sources. Alexbrn 05:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
(add) Consider also:
  • Karchmer EI (2009). "Acupuncture and Moxibustion". In Davis EK (ed.). Taylor & Francis. p. 4. ISBN 978-0-415-77716-2 http://books.google.com/books?id=2rLBvrlKI7QC&pg=PA4. Acupuncture refers to the therapeutic manipulation of needles at specific sites on the body, and moxibustion to the therapeutic warming or cauterizing of those sites with slow-burning moxa leaves. They are commonly used together in clinical practice ... {{cite book}}: |work= ignored (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)
The English definition for the word acupuncture is not factually accurate.
We are using good RS to verify the first sentence for the definition of acupuncture. The second sentence is the explanation for "traditional acupuncture". Both statements are accurate and from a NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 06:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Sourced text was deleted

And some original research was added. At least three sources are obviously MEDRS violations. QuackGuru (talk) 17:07, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Can you please specify the MEDRS violations? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I removed the primary sources and poor sources. QuackGuru (talk) 22:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Can you please specify the MEDRS violations, what were the primary sources and what were the poor sources you removed? Thanks. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:27, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Please check the edit history and each edit summary. QuackGuru (talk) 22:31, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't answer my question. Can you please provide a description of all your edits you made on the article? Thanks. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:36, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
It is unnecessary to provide a description of each edit on the talk page too. Do you have any specific objection? QuackGuru (talk) 22:42, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
All the unexplained ones. I just can't see what you are looking for if you don't explain. Seems like revertable edits. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 23:05, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Every edit was explained. You have not given a reason to restore the primary sources or the impact factor of 0 sources. QuackGuru (talk) 23:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
All QG's edits yesterday were given a reasonable edit summary. Are the edit summaries not appearing on your screen Jayaguru-Shishya? -Roxy the dog (resonate) 00:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
These two were removed per MEDRS without explaining what the violation is. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 13:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The primary sources and other poor sources were restored against consensus. The 2009 journal of pain source is a primary source (PMID 19409857). QuackGuru (talk) 06:06, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

See Myofascial Meridians below. This has been discussed in the approved. MEDRS does not say all primary sources should be removed. Please instead work on doing some of your own research to help improve sources, not eradicate them. - Technophant (talk) 06:35, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The sources are not approved according to MEDRS standards. You are using primary sources and poor sources to argue against much better sources. QuackGuru (talk) 06:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Impact factor 2

Hi! I was wondering, what is the minimum impact factor of a source according to WP policies to be sufficient enough in order to be published in an article? I couldn't find such information myself, but I think you can help! Thanks! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:34, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I think an impact factor of 0 is a poor source. QuackGuru (talk) 22:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I think so too. Back to my question: what is the minimum impact factor to be sufficient enough? Thanks! Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:41, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't believe there is a hard and fast rule on impact factor/reliable sources. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 00:14, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Correct. There isn't any. There can be many situations where it's not a factor, but in some it might be a decisive one. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Myofascial Meridians revived, NPOV

I've revived this discussion from archive. With the above arguments in consideration, as well as some new sources I've reworked long-standing and un-challenged content form myofascial meridians into this article in the section regarding research. It was awkward trying insert this into what looks like an very calculated and systemic attack on the fundamentals of TCM. Accordingly I added the the NPOV banner because there's no way this article in the way it sits now can be called neutral by community standards. - Technophant (talk) 06:20, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

On the contrary, the content from the other article is challenged. Did you read this diff? See Talk:Acupuncture#Sourced text was deleted. QuackGuru (talk) 06:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
In the context of the mainstream, "myofascial meridians" appears to be a fringe concept with one mention only in a dodgy (chiropractic) journal, according to a PubMed search. If that is so, it is doubtful that Myofascial meridians should exist, and it would certainly be undue to mention it here. Alexbrn 06:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I was thinking the same thing. AFD? QuackGuru (talk) 06:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I have asked at WP:FT/N. Alexbrn 06:50, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Some clear specifics are needed to support an NPOV tag and discussion. This article is extensively discussed and worked out on this talk page. The content reflects well reviewed material based on evaluated sources. The article has been developed through extensive consensus building. An NPOV tag for the entire article based on a single editors vague assertion is not appropriate.
Myofascial meridians and referred pain along such meridians as support for evidence of acupuncture meridians from a single researcher over five years ago without replication and recognition in academia is not a valid basis for content. Did Dorsher's 2009 publications lead to mainstream academia and medical science recognizing and accepting acupuncture meridians as having an anatomical basis? If so provide some sources that state that. The high quality sources that review the effectiveness of acupuncture that I have read all make reference to meridians as unsupported theory. One author getting published once in a reputable journal does not create the current medical understanding on a topic, especially if after five years there is no substantial validation. The Journal of Pain has published more on acupuncture since Dorsher's article and they don't seem reflect an acceptance of anatomical correlation. - - MrBill3 (talk) 07:14, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
To quote Pigliucci and Boudrey, "Asma’s example of Chinese medicine’s claims about the existence of 'Qi' energy, channeled through the human body by way of 'meridians,' though, is a different matter. This sounds scientific, because it uses arcane jargon that gives the impression of articulating explanatory principles. But there is no way to test the existence of Qi and associated meridians, or to establish a viable research program based on those concepts, for the simple reason that talk of Qi and meridians only looks substantive, but it isn’t even in the ballpark of an empirically verifiable theory." - - MrBill3 (talk) 07:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
It's pseudoscientific piffle which should probably be deleted, not merged. -- Brangifer (talk) 14:36, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • @Mallexikon, here's a reliable secondary source (editorial control and fact checking) from the WSJ stating: "Many of the 365 acupuncture points correspond to nerve bundles or muscle trigger points. Several meridians track major arteries and nerves." That statement and source, with Dorser's Journal of Pain article cited for background and further info should be sufficient. It does not contradict the 2008 review being these are recent findings. - Technophant (talk) 16:23, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The Wall Street Journal is a great source in general, but should not be used for medical claims per MEDRS. - 2/0 (cont.) 16:48, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I find WSJ far more reliable than blogs by different news sites. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 21:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
You are missing the point. All news sites suck for medical claims and they are also shoddy for science claims (WSJ in particular). Second Quantization (talk) 22:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Blogs are being used as a source in other alt med articles, like https://en.wikipedia.org/Chiropractic#cite_note-Brown2014-214 . I'd like to see both discarded, but it is apparent that WSJ is more reliable than some blog in a newspaper. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:24, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
No it does not follow. WSJ is garbage, but its possible that a blog could be much more reliable, particularly if written by a scientist blogging for example, WP:USERG:"Some news outlets host interactive columns they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control.". But anyway, newspapers are not generally reliable for medical claims. The other source you highlight is not being used for a medical claim, its being used to give the views of chiropractors from a survey. Second Quantization (talk) 22:31, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Jayaguru-Shishya, you are failing to make a difference between MEDRS type content and non-MEDRS content. The sourcing rules are not the same. Brown's source is not used to support medical claims, but the opinions of a noted expert on the intersection between spirituality and chiropractic. That's actually a huge area, since chiropractic was created on the basis of a religious seance, and D.D. Palmer later (1911) considered making it a religion. Brown's comments have nothing to do with medical claims, so that content is not governed by the MEDRS guideline. MEDRS only covers medical claims, no matter which article at Misplaced Pages. It does not govern non-medical claims, even in medical articles. You have previously seemed to fail to understand this. I hope you understand it now so we don't have to continually explain it to you. It has also been explained to you that we don't deprecate a source just because its a blog. Blogs by experts and journalists are often used as RS here. So please stop your obsession with not using blogs since you clearly do not understand that issue either. I'm really beginning to wonder if you aren't an incarnation of User:Khabboos / User:Dr.Jhingade. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
A news source can be used to show that there's a debate. If language such as "According to the Wall Street Journal: Many of the 365 acupuncture points correspond to nerve bundles or muscle trigger points. Several meridians track major arteries and nerves." that should be acceptable. It doesn't make a clear medical claim, rather shows that other opinions exist. - Technophant (talk) 16:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Abusing MEDRS to cover a minority scientific opinion does not comply with this directive: "1a) Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience."This guideline supports the general sourcing policy at Misplaced Pages:Verifiability with specific attention given to sources appropriate for the medical and health-related content in any type of article, including alternative medicine. Sources for all other types of content—including all non-medical information in medicine-related articles—are covered by the general guideline on identifying reliable sources rather than this specific guideline." Controversy among researchers, historical background, and opinions about acupuncture don't strictly fit the definition of "bio-medical information". - Technophant (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Technophant, you misunderstand what is meant by "making a medical claim". Please reread the guideline. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposed pov-section tag for "Scientific view on TCM theory"

Due to the apparent debate about neutrality evident in this talk page I would like to add the template "pov-section" under the subsection "Scientific view on TCM theory".- Technophant (talk) 09:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

The debate is over including primary/poor sources. I don't think a tag is necessary. QuackGuru (talk) 22:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
There's people on the NPOV noticeboard that disagree. - Technophant (talk) 01:25, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Tag not needed. This is an invented controversy, and appears disruptive. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 01:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Pointing out that controversy exists isn't disruptive but accusing someone of "inventing controversy" is by all accounts disruptive. -A1candidate (talk) 01:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with Myofascial meridians

This subject appears to be a minor topic of speculation within a much larger field. There does not seem to be significant enough mainstream medical coverage to warrant an article dedicated to this subject however it may be a useful addition to the general article on Acupuncture. Salimfadhley (talk) 08:59, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Strongly Oppose - This one doesn't make any sense. Myofascial meridians an anatomy article under WikiProject Anatomy. This article is about a medical practice whose scope covers many areas. The argument that it doesn't have "significant enough mainstream medical coverage" shouldn't apply to an anatomy article. This book reviews declares that it's a "must read for anyone that works with the musculoskeletal system." How does shoving it into this article serve anybody except the few who want it to go away? - Technophant (talk) 13:26, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
It's a random blog review. It means nothing. WP:SPS Second Quantization (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The fascia planes proposal probably needs to be mentioned here, but if anything the article looks more closely related to Rolfing. A good wave of the credulity wand is certainly in order. - 2/0 (cont.) 13:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose, if this is good enough for Elsevier Health Sciences to publish, then we ought to have an article on it. Anatomy Trains: Myofascial Meridians for Manual and Movement Therapists ISBN 9780702055638 3rd edition. Darkness Shines (talk) 16:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - please note that merge discussions should remain open for at least 7 days and closed by an administrator. - Technophant (talk) 20:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • 'Support, myofascial planes, and the information in the article, are very relevant here. I would like to see additional information such as "jing jin" or the sinew system be added into the article along with modern research into this field. Alternatively, I would support redirecting but not to the acupuncture page itself, but to a section on fascial planes within the article, which should be expanded beyond just the Thomas Myers information in the article, "myofascial meridians."LesVegas (talk) 01:48, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Redirect to Meridian_(Chinese_medicine) as it is not notable as a stand alone article. See ref for support Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:27, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring

Repeated insertion of essentially the same material coupled with removing sourced content is unacceptable edit warring. This article is both contentious and under discretionary sanctions. Discussion and consensus are needed for making changes if they are challenged. Once reverted reinserting content without discussion is edit warring. - - MrBill3 (talk) 07:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The edits by User:Technophant did not improve this article. This is the same behaviour as the recently confirmed sock Milliongoldcoinpoint. QuackGuru (talk) 07:53, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
In Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Neutral_point_of_view_as_applied_to_science it's decidied that

1a) Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience.

I'm only trying, in good faith and through good practices, to help improve this article, despite User:QuackGuru's Wikihouding and Fringe Pushing. I do not mean to be edit warring and if that's what I've been doing (unintentionally) I will refrain from doing so - Technophant (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Appropiateness use of QuackWatch

I removed the critcism from QuackWatch from the Scientific View section. Anything in this section should meet the requirements of WP:SCIRSen WP:MEDRS. This comment could be acceptable in the Reception section or Criticism section, but not here. Also, this statement is a criticism of TCM, not acupuncture, and is repeated on the TCM page. A more appropriate statement should be more narrowly focused on acupuncture alone. Also, I think the section should be titled "Scientific view on acupuncture theory" not "Scientific view on TCM". - Technophant (talk) 16:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Quackwatch is established RS for altmed topics. Maybe check out the WP:RS/N archives ... Alexbrn 16:33, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
QuackWatch does NOT pass MEDRS and should NOT be used to refute bio-medical claims. I made a bold edit moving the section to a new Rececption/Skeptics section which I feel is more appropriate. - Technophant (talk) 17:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@User:Alexbrn Could you please explain why you reverted my edit without an edit summary? - Technophant (talk) 17:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
There was one. Alexbrn 17:45, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Certainly was - made very good sense too. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 17:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@User:Alexbrn Well, what is it? - Technophant (talk) 17:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@Technophant: A more petinent question would be why you made these contentious edits without first discussing here? Jim1138 (talk) 18:20, 19 July 2014 (UTC)/
@User:Alexbrn Yes I made those bold edits. They didn't seem contentious at the time. Now please answer my question. - - Technophant (talk) 18:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Having a separate criticism section is generally deprecated, as the material can be more neutrally presented by integrating it with the text. Also, QuackWatch is just fine for this article, see innumerable past discussions. - 2/0 (cont.) 18:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

2/0 -Right, by having a critcism section NPOV would require an equal and opposite Support section. By using a source that has been only conditionally approved to further a scientific/bio-medical claim isn't allowed. Check this out this decision from RSN: "In the past there have been attempts to elevate Quackwatch to the same high status as scholarly sources or even statements by scientific organisations. These were of course not successful. --Hans Adler (talk) 00:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)" - Technophant (talk) 19:13, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

The Hans Adler source is not WP:MEDRS compliant. It is out of date. (I remember Hans patiently taking homeopaths apart on the Hpathy forum years ago. Is he still around?) -Roxy the dog (resonate) 19:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
WP:MEDRS isn't used for non-medical information. -A1candidate (talk) 19:41, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
See Misplaced Pages:How to put up a straight pole by pushing it at an angle for why we should not have duelling Support/Criticism sections. Seriously, this is an ages old no-go.
Hans Adler is generally a fine editor, but he is not offering an independent opinion there. QW has been debated to death and back, and the result is that we are always enjoined to use it but use caution. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:07, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Because blogs and self-publishing websites are preferable to properly peer-reviewed journals and authoritative textbooks? -A1candidate (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Surely there has to be some compromise between a strict legalistic view of Medres and the mandate to have a neutral point of view. The article could show that while the medical consensus is this, other opinions do exist. This in no way would affect the accuracy of the medical information in the article, indeed it would enhance it. - Technophant (talk) 03:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I've taken this idea and posted this question to MEDRS talk page here: Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Issues with alt med not being able to maintain NPOV - Technophant (talk) 03:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

The statement, "NPOV would require an equal and opposite Support section" clearly demonstrates a lack of understanding of the NPOV policy. The policy is not the false balance of equal space for he said and she said but an accurate reflection of published secondary sources in proportion to their prominence. Please take some time to actually read with an eye to understanding the entire NPOV policy. Take note of the section DUE. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree. There shouldn't be undue weight on either side of controversy. I see this article's treatment of TCM as being positional, not neutral. - Technophant (talk) 05:54, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
AGAIN ACTUALLY READ THE POLICY. NPOV says "Giving 'equal validity' can create a false balance" and "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects." FRINGE views do not carry much DUE weight at all. The position of mainstream academia is the position reflected in a WP article. An editor's ideas of neutrality and positionality (False balance) are irrelevant and not policy. Representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic is. Note the words proportionately and significant and the explanations that follow. - - MrBill3 (talk) 06:37, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
These aren't fringe views at all. Fringe means "members of a group or political party holding extreme views." Fringe would be a chiropractor publishing an unverifiable paper on his website. Peter Dorscher of the world renowned Mayo Clinic being published in the reputable Journal of Pain isn't fringe science, it's just new science. "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."- Mahatma Gandhi - Technophant (talk) 07:25, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
If acupuncture will win in respect to the medical consensus, Misplaced Pages will write that in big shinny letters. We are not there yet, perhaps we will never be there. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

A precise and accurate definition is better

User:Sunrise, a more vague definition is not an improvement. The wording "acupoints" has a specific meaning for the text. QuackGuru (talk) 19:22, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that "acupoints" is not too much jargon there since the meaning of the term of art is clear in context. We certainly need to maintain a dispassionate outside view, but this particular use seems efficient and allowable. - 2/0 (cont.) 20:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Hi! My own opinion is that it's easier on the reader if they don't have to figure out the context, even though it's clear after a few seconds of thought, so using the term is better saved for the third sentence. But it was meant to be a bold edit; I'd only suggest that if you revert, the term should be wikilinked. It's unfortunate that I made the change right before the page was protected, and I suppose it shouldn't be edited without consensus right now, but if it helps, I wouldn't object to a revert through protection in the spirit of BRD. Added: actually, I see that your comments here came before the protection. If you don't feel strongly enough to revert, I won't object to that either. :-)
(FYI @QuackGuru, to ping someone you need to link their name in the same edit in which you use your signature.) Sunrise (talk) 00:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I can make the edit if you'd like. Any objections to adding the wikilink as well? (I can see why that would be helpful, since as a newcomer I have never heard the term "accupoints" before today.) Also, in looking for the first usage of the term after the Lead, I noticed that the first sentence of the Lead is a verbatim copy of the first sentence of the "Clinical practice" section...not sure if that was intentional. Let me know if I should add the wikilink or not. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The protection is very short. I can go ahead and wikilink the term when the article is unprotected. QuackGuru (talk) 04:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Closer to source

Current wording is "For the use of acupuncture for post-operative pain, there was contradictory evidence."

Closer to source would be "For the use of acupuncture for post-operative pain, there was sometimes contradictory evidence." QuackGuru (talk) 04:38, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

The first wording above is grammatically correct. "Sometimes contradictory" (the equivalent of saying "sometimes sometimes") is rather awkward and not an improvement. The many copy edits made by User:Sunrise have been a net plus, including this one. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

The source is not outdated

The text says "Similarly, no research has established any consistent anatomical structure or function for either acupuncture points or meridians." The 2008 source is not outdated. Your edit summary was incorporate information from the article "myofacial meridians" into this section. But you also deleted "Similarly, no research has established any consistent anatomical structure or function for either acupuncture points or meridians." Technophant, did you accidentally delete the sentence? QuackGuru (talk) 05:09, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

2008 is outdated according to WP:MEDDATE which says "Look for reviews published in the last five years or so, preferably in the last two or three years." - Technophant (talk) 05:36, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
It also says "These instructions are appropriate for actively researched areas with many primary sources and several reviews and may need to be relaxed in areas where little progress is being made or few reviews are being published". That meridians are nonsense is long-settled so older sources are fine. Alexbrn 05:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
For fringe subjects we are often obligated to use older sources. In cases where the content is still accurate, the date of the source could just as well be several thousand years old and we could still use it. -- Brangifer (talk) 06:55, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
That isn't what WP:MEDDATE says. If newer research contradicts a 6 year old review of that area of research then that review is outdated. - Technophant (talk) 07:28, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Please provide the years and links for the "newer research" and the "6 year old review." -- Brangifer (talk) 07:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

I'll provide a review of what I've found so far:

  • The "six year old source" #1: Singh & Ernst 2008, Chapter 2: The Truth About Acupuncture (not a scientific journal)
  1. 2: . (2008). *Electrical properties of acupuncture points and meridians: A systematic review (does have references to below articles)

The best evidence I've found so far is

The anatomical and physiologic nature of the acupuncture point/meridian remains elusive. Our limited understanding, however, is not for lack of existing hypotheses. Numerous physiologic and anatomical associations have been proposed within the literature. This summary provides a brief review of the scientific assessment of the acupuncture point and meridian. The discussion is limited to reported associations that reflect common belief, are sufficiently specific to the acupuncture point and meridian, or are supported by more than 2 good-quality studies. With this criteria, the talk focuses on two anatomical associations (nervous system and connective tissue), and three physiologic associations (trigger point, nuclear tracer migration, and electrical properties) are discussed.



That's enough for now. - Technophant (talk) 08:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Fringe supporters keep churning out new "evidence" for certain claims. This evidence is often flawed. But they are aiming for quantity, not quality. they hope to show legitimacy by pointing at the sheer amount of papers. In wikipedia, we follow the principle that exceptional claims require exceptional sources. The existence of meridians is an exceptional claim, because it has been discarded by so many sources as siply impossible and not based on scientific evidence. You will need very strong sources to counter that. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:13, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@Enric Naval Find a review of research after 2008 that has discredited these papers. If you find one, did it cite and refute these findings? I can find nothing that refutes this. - - Technophant (talk) 11:24, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Mainstream sources don't need to discuss every single paper brought forward by proponents of a theory. Reviews don't get automatically outdated every time a new paper appears. If mainstream opinion has changed, then a mainstream review will say so. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:31, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The last mainstream reviews were both in 2008 (above). The one used in the article focuses only on electrical properties and says there no valid theories. The one not used says there's many valid theories. - Technophant (talk) 11:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
The one not included in the article, The Status and Future of Acupuncture Mechanism Research is a summary of invited lectures on an acupuncture conference. That rates very low for WP:MEDASSESS.
The one included in the article Electrical properties of acupuncture points and meridians: A systematic review is a systematic review of the best available clinical evidence. That rates very high for WP:MEDASSESS.
--Enric Naval (talk) 12:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@User:Enric Naval Yes, but it's still limited to only electrical properties. Can in no way be considered comprehensive. - Technophant (talk) 16:25, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 July 2014

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In the section "Scientific view on TCM theory" this sentence appears:

Despite the scientific evidence against such mystical explanations, academic discussions of acupuncture still make reference to pseudoscientific concepts like qi and meridians, in practice making many scholarly efforts to integrate evidence for efficacy and discussions of the mechanism of impossible.
  1. The penultimate word "of" should be deleted.
  2. The sentence is unnecessarily hostile to TCM and can be worded more neutrally while remaining true to sources. The point to be made is as above in the article, namely that concepts like qi and meridians don't integrate with modern science; there's no need for "mystical" and "pseudoscientific" here.

I suggest the sentence is changed to:

Despite the scientific evidence against such explanations, academic discussions of acupuncture still make reference to nonscientific concepts like qi and meridians, in practice making many scholarly efforts to integrate evidence for efficacy and discussions of the mechanism impossible.

Peter coxhead (talk) 08:58, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Agree - Technophant (talk) 09:10, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Agree with the first part, but definitely not the last part as it is very controversial. The source uses the words "mystical" and "pseudoscientific" quite often. I'm not saying the current wording is the best, but since this is controversial, it must be thoroughly discussed and is not eligible for an "edit request". -- Brangifer (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@BullRangifer: if it's "controversial" to remove clearly biased language then there's something seriously wrong with the consensus that led to the article being the way it is. This seems like one of those Misplaced Pages discussions that sensible editors avoid, and so will I – removed from my watchlist. Peter coxhead (talk) 06:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Partly done: I don't see enough consensus for #2. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 July 2014 2

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Due to the apparent debate about neutrality evident in this talk page I would like to add the template "pov-section" under the subsection "Scientific view on TCM theory" - Technophant (talk) 09:56, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Given the fact that reviews from high-quality medical journals about the mechanism of acupuncture have been repeatedly removed from this article, I think the POV template is long overdue.
1. A 2008 review article titled Neural mechanism underlying acupuncture analgesia in Progress in Neurobiology, with impact actor of 9.035, was removed.
2. A 2010 review article titled Mechanisms of action for acupuncture in the oncology setting in Current Treatment Options in Oncology, with impact factor of 2.422, failed to be included.
3. A 2011 review article titled Ancient Chinese medicine and mechanistic evidence of acupuncture physiology in European Journal of Physiology, with impact factor of 4.866, was removed.
4. A 2012 meta-analysis titled Characterizing Acupuncture Stimuli Using Brain Imaging with fMRI in PLOS ONE, with impact factor of 3.730, failed to be included
5. A 2013 review article titled Acupuncture in Mayo Clinic Proceedings with impact factor of 5.698 failed to be included.
6. A 2014 review article titled Acupuncture, Connective Tissue, and Peripheral Sensory Modulation in Critical Reviews in Eukaryotic Gene Expression, with impact factor of 2.949, failed to be included
7. A 2014 review article titled Mechanisms of acupuncture-electroacupuncture on persistent pain in Anesthesiology, with impact factor of 5.163, was removed.

There are a lot more sources removed but I don't have time to retrieve all of them. POV tag should stay until they're added back. -A1candidate (talk) 10:55, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

@user:A1candidate - Thank you. Perhaps we are getting somewhere. - Technophant (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't thank A1candidate too quickly since (s)he is a professional acupuncturist with a huge COI who really shouldn't be editing these articles so boldly and pushing fringe POV. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
What do you want to add using what source? I do not see a need for a POV tag at this point in time. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:38, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Before we even start discussing which reviews, I suggest the following overview statement from a highly authoritative medical textbook:
"The emerging acceptance of acupuncture results in part from its widespread availability and use in the United States today, even within the walls of major medical centers where it is used as an ancillary approach to pain management. Yet its acceptance appears to stem from more than just its communal appeal.
Since the mid-1970s, biochemical and imaging studies have begun to yield evidence that needling can alter central pain-processing pathways, possibly by triggering release of neural mediators that bind to specific receptors in the brain regions that modulate pain perception."
- Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine. McGraw-Hill. 2011. p. 2-5. ISBN 9780071748902. (Google Books)
If we could start by agreeing that some of the most authoritative medical textbooks consider acupuncture to be empirically validated to certain degrees, perhaps we can then proceed to discuss the details. -A1candidate (talk) 13:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
It could be so, but the whole research that shows that sham acupuncture works as good as real acupuncture ruins your whole thesis. We could just randomly insert needles and pretend to treat people by doing that. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
As for real vs sham acupuncture, see PMID 24595780 -A1candidate (talk) 14:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Sham acupuncture can't be considered a true control because it involves activating the nervous system in some way. There's many, many articles criticizing the way sham controls are used. Take a look at this papers conclusion. - Technophant (talk) 16:20, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. A healthy combination of editing and talk page discussion after the protection has expired will probably go farther than a protected edit request. ~Adjwilley (talk) 17:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Can you at least remove that personal attack by User:BullRangifer against me? Such personal accusations are completely false and untrue. -A1candidate (talk) 19:33, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I have stricken the comment. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
What do you want to say using Harrison's? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:57, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll try to make it concise and keep it as short as possible:
1a. Proposed inclusion - There is a growing belief among researchers that acupuncture may be effective.
1b. What Harrison's says - "Although methodological problems continue to plague acupuncture trials, belief has been growing even in academic centers that acupuncture may be effective", as quoted directly from Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine. McGraw-Hill. 2011. p. 2-5. ISBN 9780071748902. (Google Books)
1c. Rationale for addition - A fringe theory, by definition, departs significantly from mainstream view. In the case of acupuncture, however, there is a growing belief in academic centers that acupuncture is effective, not fringe.
2a. Proposed inclusion - It is used in some major medical centers as an ancillary approach to pain management.
2b. What Harrison's says - "The emerging acceptance of acupuncture results in part from its widespread availability and use in the United States today, even within the walls of major medical centers where it is used as an ancillary approach to pain management", as quoted directly from Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine. McGraw-Hill. 2011. p. 2-5. ISBN 9780071748902. (Google Books)
2c. Rationale for addition - Alternative medicine, by definition, is not part of standard medical care. Acupuncture, however, is "ancillary" when it comes to managing chronic pain and it should not be labelled otherwise
3a. Proposed inclusion - In recent decades, biochemical and imaging studies have begun to yield evidence that needling can alter pain perception in the central nervous system, possibly by triggering the release of neurotransmitters that subsequently bind onto specific receptors in brain regions responsible for pain perception.
3b. What Harrison's says - "Since the mid-1970s, biochemical and imaging studies have begun to yield evidence that needling can alter central pain-processing pathways, possibly by triggering release of neural mediators that bind to specific receptors in the brain regions that modulate pain perception." Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine. McGraw-Hill. 2011. p. 2-5. ISBN 9780071748902. (Books)
3c. Rationale for addition - This is a scientific fact that has been repeatedly demonstrated numerous times by now. We really need a section for mechanism of action if we are serious about sticking to mainstream science.
Also, would Goldman's Cecil Medicine be an acceptable textbook for an additional source? Once we're done with the textbook basics, we could go on to discuss more specific details as reviewed by high impact factor journals. -A1candidate (talk) 10:44, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
So exactly what text are you wanting to add to what part of the article? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 10:46, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
1b "problems continue" "has been growing...may" 1c "...is..." MAY and IS are quite different. If problems continue to plague it seems a clear statement that there is NOT empirical support of the type needed to validate a medical treatment. - - MrBill3 (talk) 11:05, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Calm down, we're only talking about the beliefs of the academic community which has been growing rather than may be growing. Can we agree on this first? -A1candidate (talk)
It seems there is an effort to inflate the idea that there MAY be some elements of interest to the mainstream academic community while the evidence is still PLAGUED by methodological problems and the theoretical basis is still not validated into a false assertion of a change in the mainstream academic consensus on the validity of the theoretical basis and the evidence for empirical support. As there is no deadline if these concepts are valid surely empirical research not plagued by methodological failures and theoretical bases that are accepted are forthcoming and can be included WHEN this actually occurs. Until then the article should clearly reflect the widespread academic position on these questionable concepts. - - MrBill3 (talk) 13:40, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Instead of speculating about my motivations to improve the article, you may want to check out what mainstream academic literature says about the topic. Or better yet, read what Harrison's Principles of Internal Medicine says and come back once you're done. Methodological problems has already been mentioned in the article. -A1candidate (talk) 15:28, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 20 July 2014 3

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In the section about reception/Mayo, please add the quote "They concluded "Since acupuncture has few side effects, it may be worth a try if you're having trouble controlling pain with more-conventional methods." from the same source."" - Technophant (talk) 16:17, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Non-admin comment: are you sure you've read and completely understood the instructions? It clearly states that you have to establish a consensus first. I highly doubt this is an edit many users will agree with. --Six words (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. Technophant, your abuse of edit requests (and RfCs elsewhere) is not constructive. Edit requests are reserved for minor and totally uncontroversial edits. RfCs are part of the dispute resolution process and should be reserved for when a very long discussion has gotten bogged down and one needs third party input. -- Brangifer (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
This edit request is specific and not controversial (the source does indeed say this and it's appropriate). Please stop Wikihouding me. - Technophant (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Please read WP:CONSENSUS. Do you think there's a consensus for this edit? --Six words (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Why aren't these same criticisms being made to @Peter coxhead's request above? Why am I being singled out? His edit is clearly controversial and non-specific. - Technophant (talk) 17:08, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Technophant, Six words is correct. An "edit request" is reserved for totally uncontroversial edits for which a consensus is guaranteed. Since this hasn't been discussed, and you're already getting resistance, this edit request is already against policy and is dead in the water.
As for Peter's request above, since you admit that it's controversial, why are you supporting it? I have added a dissenting view above. Take a look. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Your paranoia and repeated personal attacks against other editors is tiresome. BTW, it's spelled "wikihounding", and it's definitely a personal attack. Stop it. -- Brangifer (talk) 17:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

BTW: WP:BOLD does not say that ALL edit need consensus before being added. If I weren't an experienced editor I might have fallen for that advice. - Technophant (talk)

The guideline doesn't apply here - the article is locked to prevent BOLD edits. As for your earlier question: I didn't advise Peter because I regarded the changes he proposed as minor and pretty uncontroversial. He also doesn't appear to be engaged in discussions here, so I had no reason to suspect that he thought his proposal would be controversial. --Six words (talk) 20:02, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
"Locked to prevent bold edits?" That's hilarious. That's not why pages are semi-protected. - Technophant (talk) 01:19, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand WP:Bold and protection policy. The article was full protected to stop an edit war in which you were the main participant, and in my experience you narrowly escaped blocked. And when the protection expires, if you jump right in and start making Bold edits without any regard for consensus, you probably will be blocked. When an article is full protected, no admin is going to make a Bold edit unless they believe that there is clear consensus for that edit. Heck, we usually won't even revert bad edits that took place right before the protection was applied, unless they are really, really bad edits (vandalism, copyvio, BLP issues, etc.) ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:49, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
And now a familiar edit is being pushed again ... Alexbrn 02:59, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

A second 3RR NB filing has been made. - - MrBill3 (talk) 14:16, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Systemic bias and journal quality

Hey all! I've been on the systemic bias talk page and there has been discussion on Eastern medicine and acupuncture. Amongst those who edit here, what standards have been adopted as to what journals should and should not be cited? We have talked about reporting standards in acupuncture studies specifically. STRICTA was one that was mentioned, but I'm aware there are others. Are journals excluded because they don't subscribe to reporting standards, or is generally anything allowed?LesVegas (talk) 20:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Basically nothing is allowed that contradicts the POV set forth in the article as it stands. No unbiased science found here. - Technophant (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Yeah man, it would seem to me that we would want journals with the most robust evidence as possible. I'm just a lay researcher, but it makes sense to me that reporting standards are essential. Otherwise you could find any piece of research to support whatever POV you have. LesVegas (talk) 01:14, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
You think I'm kidding? The some of sources for the "good" POV, like Quackwatch, are used inappropiately. Other's don't verify. If you are interested in systemic bias hang around here.- Technophant (talk) 01:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
What source is required depends on what content one is trying to support. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:59, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Ice Man and acupuncture

This line in the lede: The tattoo marks identified on the Ice Man who died around 3300 BCE suggested that a form of stimulatory treatment resembling acupuncture developed independent of China. Seems to be rather speculative for lede material ref. Should it even be mentioned in the article at all? Also a photo caption in Acupuncture#History Jim1138 (talk) 10:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

It is a wild hypothesis based on speculation rather than archaeological evidence. Image is completely unrelated to acupuncture and should be removed -A1candidate (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Agreed - removed both. - 2/0 (cont.) 17:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring rather than getting consensus

Repeated insertion of reverted content without consensus is not appropriate. When forum shopping has not resulted in support to edit against consensus is not appropriate. Multiple issues have been raised about edits that have been reverted there is not consensus support for these edits. Discussion across a number of forums does not support making changes to this article without consensus. Tendentious editing and IDHT behavior on talk pages demonstrates POV Pushing and a lack of genuine interest in improving the encyclopedia. This behavior is not in keeping with policy and is not constructive participation. A revert to previous stable version is likely appropriate with protection again and changes made only after consensus on this talk page. - - MrBill3 (talk) 13:31, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

FYI: wp:AN/I#User:Jmh649 (Doc James) reported by User:Technophant for wikihounding and tendentious editing Jim1138 (talk) 16:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
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