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| :The fundamental error was in adding civility as one of the pillars, as it's impossible to define and therefore to enforce. To give you just one example, it's my opinion that one of the most incivil people on WP is Jimbo Wales, and very few would have the balls to block him. Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me. Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one. ] ] 20:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | :The fundamental error was in adding civility as one of the pillars, as it's impossible to define and therefore to enforce. To give you just one example, it's my opinion that one of the most incivil people on WP is Jimbo Wales, and very few would have the balls to block him. Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me. Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one. ] ] 20:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | ||
| :::"Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me." - Brilliantly put!!! --] - Just your ] banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... ] 17:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC) | |||
| *You can also find lots about the varies attempts to make civility actionable in the archives of ]. ]] 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | *You can also find lots about the varies attempts to make civility actionable in the archives of ]. ]] 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 17:47, 25 July 2014
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Proposal to split WP:AN
Having struggled to use this over-long page on mobile last night, I believe it should be split. The easiest way to do so would be to move the "Requests for closure" section to its own page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Isn't it technically on its own separate page already but it's just being transcluded here?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:49, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Or maybe don't try and look at AN on a mobile...? You know it's going to be long/busy, so...GiantSnowman 17:33, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- And how does that help all our colleagues who have mobile-only access? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- If so, why bother transcluding it here? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Or maybe don't try and look at AN on a mobile...? You know it's going to be long/busy, so...GiantSnowman 17:33, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Collapse the transcluded RFC's? the panda ɛˢˡ” 17:41, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- When text is "collapsed", is it still downloaded to the browser and then visually hidden, or are fewer characters actually sent? —Anne Delong (talk) 17:55, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Removing the transcluded requests for closure would greatly reduce the value of that page. –xeno 18:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Andy Mabbett, on the mobile site the requests for closure section is collapsed by default and takes up a total of one line. What is the actual problem you're getting? Mogism (talk) 18:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- It's not collapsed in the Android app. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- How so? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- Andy Mabbett, on the mobile site the requests for closure section is collapsed by default and takes up a total of one line. What is the actual problem you're getting? Mogism (talk) 18:09, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm with xeno, the purpose of that page is to provide information to admin about non-emergency issues that need addressing, which it currently does fairly well. ANI is usually 3 to 6 times larger (currently 490k) and we deal just fine. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 18:14, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- ANI does not work "just fine" on mobile, in the same way that AN does not. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- You would be better served by addressing the engineering team responsible for the mobile app. AN & ANI are not critical for mobile users, and I heavily doubt admins and power users REALLY need top speed access to those pages on their mobile devices. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:00, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- For me, AN and ANI work like crap on my Samsung Tab 2 10.1 (scrolling through to add edit doesn't work right), but work great on my Samsung S5 smartphone. Loads fast on both. I don't use the Wiki app (blech), just Chrome. I guess your mileage varies. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 22:15, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- ANI does not work "just fine" on mobile, in the same way that AN does not. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:45, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think this might be becoming a perennial proposal. The purpose here is so that RfC closure, which is a primary means of dispute resolution, get attended to, and so I am with Xeno. Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:21, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
- I don't know what your device is, but for editing on my Nexus 5, Chrome works better than Misplaced Pages's official Adroid app. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 23:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Shackleton misdoings
It is not my purpose to discredit any kind of person,
but given the unjustified allegations and libel against Captain Robert Falcon Scott over Misplaced Pages (and its bunch of subsequent articles), I think anyone dedicated to a remotely balanced account of reality should be aware of this report and how starkly the "Wikipedian" account is limited to the resource of one single person that seems to be a lover of Ernest Shackleton:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/hero-who-rebelled-against-shackleton-is-honoured-with-statue-of-beloved-cat-6166876.html --Shacklewatch (talk) 22:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed the huge blob of copyrighted text pasted here multiple times. That being said, I'm going to assume good faith and ask you to elaborate on what actual issue there is here. (For what it's worth, it certainly doesn't belong on this talk page, but someone can point you in the right direction, assuming there is a legitimate issue.) --Kinu /c 22:52, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- What? You're removing truths that editors happily try to be acknowledged by the public and at the same time, you are talking about "good faith"? >ou may take a look at Robert Falcon Scott's page and see what kind of reproaches he is exposed to and if he ever killed a cat by his own?--Shacklewatch (talk) 22:58, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- If you are still confused, Kinu, you are not alone. I can't tell if this is trolling, clue deficiency, a real problem, who knows. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Same issue at Talk:Ernest Shackleton#Hero who rebelled against Shackleton, where I undid the posting of a complete article from The Independent on the talk page for copyright reasons. In that case the poster was 37.230.15.203 (talk · contribs). EdJohnston (talk) 23:28, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- If you are still confused, Kinu, you are not alone. I can't tell if this is trolling, clue deficiency, a real problem, who knows. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I've blocked both, seems to be advocating something, quite poorly. Or trolling. Regardless, not here to build an encyclopedia. The IP picked up after the named account was warned. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:33, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Thanks. --Kinu /c 23:47, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Where and how to request a Civility board
I was reviewing the Administrators' noticeboard and was surprised to become fully conscious of the fact that, under "User conduct," there is no board for Civility! There are Abuse (long-term cases); Article sanctions; Conflict of interest; Contributor copyright; Edit warring & 3RR; Editor restrictions; New pages patrollers; Paid editing; Sockpuppets; Usernames; and Vandalism... but no Civility.
Considering that civility is one of the five "pillars," this seems a remarkable omission. If NPOV is one of the pillars and has a board under "Articles and content," civility ought to have its own board, too. Certainly edit warring is an uncivil behavior, and I can see why it has a board, but considering the difficulty Misplaced Pages has attracting and keeping good editors, it seems like we would want to regulate civility as conspicuously and as diligently as NPOV and 3RR.
Where and how can I go about making a formal request to make this a unique noticeboard area?
Thanks.
--Lightbreather (talk) 00:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- You are looking for Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance. The community voted to shut it down and deal with civility issues at WP:ANI and WP:DRN. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:55, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you. As it is late in the day in my neck of the woods, I will read it in more detail tomorrow, but my first comment is, this discussion is nearly two years old. Is there any reason why it couldn't be brought up again? Maybe starting as some kind of poll for users, current and perhaps even retired (if there's no law or policy that says they cannot be contacted), about the quantity and quality of incivility they experience (if any). Thanks again. Lightbreather (talk) 01:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- It would take a discussion at the same place, and you are welcome to contact the previous supporters of the program (I was one of them) but honestly, I don't see it happening. Civility isn't really very enforceable for a number of reasons. See WP:BIAS for some of the reasons, ie: what is offensive to one group of people isn't to another, so it is often impossible to define what "civil" is. Another is the observation that some of our best content creators can be, well, testy. That is the controversial part. I've never blocked for simple incivility and likely never would because of this. What often happens is that a discussion on civility often gets very incivil itself and can make the situation even worse. Personally, I try to let incivility and even insults just roll off my back, and recommend others do the same when it is possible. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- I concur to follow up at WP:WikiProject Editor Retention. Although there is no agreement on specific words that are uncivil, there are a few editors known as "good content creators" who are intolerant. In the short run, they benefit Misplaced Pages. In the long run, they may or may not benefit Misplaced Pages, because some of them are clearly over the line (no matter in what Anglophone culture). There should be a better mechanism for addressing habitual incivility. By the way,WP:DRN is not and cannot be a way to deal with incivility. Since dispute resolution is meant to address content disputes, the dispute resolution volunteers will close a case if it is being complicated by conduct issues. Dispute resolution works best when the editors are willing to work collaboratively but need assistance. WP:ANI is not an ideal place for discussing incivility, because extended threads there become uncivil (and because some of the most contentious content creators have entourages who support them, and due to the supermajority nature of consensus, it becomes difficult to get consensus to sanction them). I agree that a better process is needed for addressing incivility. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Dennis Brown, I am still studying the Village pump link you gave. I have only just finished going through the first of multiple threads under the section header. After my first pass, I count 98 votes. And some of the comments there, and even here, surprise me. Specifically, that civility isn't enforceable or that there is no agreement on what civility is. But certainly there is agreement about conduct that is uncivil. There are actual policies re: Personal attacks and Harassment. Disruptive editing, on the other hand, is described in a behavioral guideline, and tendentious editing is described in an essay.
- It would take a discussion at the same place, and you are welcome to contact the previous supporters of the program (I was one of them) but honestly, I don't see it happening. Civility isn't really very enforceable for a number of reasons. See WP:BIAS for some of the reasons, ie: what is offensive to one group of people isn't to another, so it is often impossible to define what "civil" is. Another is the observation that some of our best content creators can be, well, testy. That is the controversial part. I've never blocked for simple incivility and likely never would because of this. What often happens is that a discussion on civility often gets very incivil itself and can make the situation even worse. Personally, I try to let incivility and even insults just roll off my back, and recommend others do the same when it is possible. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 01:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thank you. As it is late in the day in my neck of the woods, I will read it in more detail tomorrow, but my first comment is, this discussion is nearly two years old. Is there any reason why it couldn't be brought up again? Maybe starting as some kind of poll for users, current and perhaps even retired (if there's no law or policy that says they cannot be contacted), about the quantity and quality of incivility they experience (if any). Thanks again. Lightbreather (talk) 01:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- I would wager that a lot of people who leave Misplaced Pages, especially women who leave, do so because they feel civility is a crumbled pillar. You practically have to call someone a expletive or say something about their mother... No, honestly, I've seen people use that kind of language here with no repercussion. Not to say that there aren't good men on WP - there are. Or that there aren't bad women - there are. But when you have a self-policing group that is at least 85% men, you get what Misplaced Pages is today.
- First step, IMO (and I probably will start an honest-to-god discussion somewhere soon, after I've done some more thinking and talking here), is not to call the civility board the "Wikiquette" board. Right off the bat, we alienate the whole crowd of people who read that and think they have to stick their pinkies in the air when they drink. I saw a lot of talk about a 3O board for conduct, and that might work. Frankly, I think it ought to be simply the Civility board, and make it clear at the top that it addresses civility policies only. (Make people take disruptive and tendentious editing, and other guideline or essay based conduct) to ANI or ArbCom, because those are harder to prove.) And if there is concern that there are already too many conduct boards, why not merge some of those? Why have separate COI and paid advocacy boards? Or separate sockpuppet, username and vandalism boards?
- I honestly think that if Misplaced Pages cracked down on harassment and personal attacks, there would be, at first, a rash of short bans/blocks, then a huge improvement in conduct and in content, too. It is ridiculous to condone incivility in some editors because they're somehow too good to lose otherwise. This is supposed to be a "wiki" (collaborative) "paedia" (body of knowledge). Kill the wiki - and incivility does just that - and the rest will lose its vigor. Lightbreather (talk) 19:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Speaking as an admin with over two years with the bit, I'm one of those that thinks that civility isn't enforceable on a multi-national website. We can deal with personal attacks, and deal with long term gross incivility where there is a clear pattern, but anything else is unenforceable. I didn't think so two years ago, but I do now. From my experience, talking with editors and trying to find common ground, plus tolerating a a good deal of heat and occasional swearing is the only way to deal with it. If you start blocking people for singular incidents of incivility, you would lose half the wiki in a week. The fact is, when people work together, they will bump heads, and sometimes good things come from that, sometimes just rudeness comes from it. This is true in the real world as much as it is here. Grown ups will sometimes tell each other to "fuck off". I'm willing to talk to folks and get them to try to get along, but I'm not willing to block over it. I understand it can be frustrating, but it is part of the process. Yes, some leave due to the occasional crassness, but at least as many would if you tried to enforce civility. The really, big, big problem is that it is impossible to enforce civility without introducing my own version of civility, which may differ from yours, or other admin, so it would be enforced unevenly, which is grossly unfair, and would cause all kinds of drama at the boards because Editor 1 said "piss off" and got blocked, and Editor 2 said the same thing and wasn't, because two different admin reviewed it. You can't codify what is and isn't civil when you live in a global neighborhood, at least not when we are talking about small doses of it. My opinion is that it would be a net loss for editor retention if we enforced it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Speaking as one who was once blocked for using the word sycophantic, it's my impression that the civility policy, such as it is, was once policed rather aggressively by a number of admins. Didn't really make any difference though, and it wouldn't really make any difference if the idea was resurrected. Eric Corbett 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, it is an awfully smarmy word ;-) but if all you were blocked for was using it, then I'd say civility was policed rather aggressively then. Lightbreather (talk) 23:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Speaking as one who was once blocked for using the word sycophantic, it's my impression that the civility policy, such as it is, was once policed rather aggressively by a number of admins. Didn't really make any difference though, and it wouldn't really make any difference if the idea was resurrected. Eric Corbett 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Speaking as an admin with over two years with the bit, I'm one of those that thinks that civility isn't enforceable on a multi-national website. We can deal with personal attacks, and deal with long term gross incivility where there is a clear pattern, but anything else is unenforceable. I didn't think so two years ago, but I do now. From my experience, talking with editors and trying to find common ground, plus tolerating a a good deal of heat and occasional swearing is the only way to deal with it. If you start blocking people for singular incidents of incivility, you would lose half the wiki in a week. The fact is, when people work together, they will bump heads, and sometimes good things come from that, sometimes just rudeness comes from it. This is true in the real world as much as it is here. Grown ups will sometimes tell each other to "fuck off". I'm willing to talk to folks and get them to try to get along, but I'm not willing to block over it. I understand it can be frustrating, but it is part of the process. Yes, some leave due to the occasional crassness, but at least as many would if you tried to enforce civility. The really, big, big problem is that it is impossible to enforce civility without introducing my own version of civility, which may differ from yours, or other admin, so it would be enforced unevenly, which is grossly unfair, and would cause all kinds of drama at the boards because Editor 1 said "piss off" and got blocked, and Editor 2 said the same thing and wasn't, because two different admin reviewed it. You can't codify what is and isn't civil when you live in a global neighborhood, at least not when we are talking about small doses of it. My opinion is that it would be a net loss for editor retention if we enforced it. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 20:02, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- The fundamental error was in adding civility as one of the pillars, as it's impossible to define and therefore to enforce. To give you just one example, it's my opinion that one of the most incivil people on WP is Jimbo Wales, and very few would have the balls to block him. Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me. Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one. Eric Corbett 20:14, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- "Added to which incivility as it tends to be invoked here on WP more often than not simply means saying something I don't agree with, or upsets me." - Brilliantly put!!! --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 17:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- You can also find lots about the varies attempts to make civility actionable in the archives of Misplaced Pages talk:Civility. Monty845 20:18, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Before there was WQA, there was the dedicated Misplaced Pages:Personal attack intervention noticeboard (shortcut: the aptly chosen WP:PAIN). This was shut down for some of the same reasons as WQA at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Personal attack intervention noticeboard. The collective experience, I suppose, is that civility and the avoidance of personal attacks is important, but that it is better to depend on a collective ethos of treating one another well, as partners on a collaborative project, rather than to rely on primarily on a sanctions model in an area well-known to result in disagreements over line-drawing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:34, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I strongly disagree with Eric that it was a mistake to make civility one of our pillars. I have no opinion as to whether or not Jimbo is one of the most incivil people on the encyclopedia, but without civility, this place would be destroyed in a few days or weeks once the fighting started in earnest and unchecked.
- But...I do agree that the issue really isn't civility per se, because Eric is right that many times incivility tends to be about saying something someone doesn't agree with and then...it becomes a long standing personal conflict that bounces around from noticeboard to noticeboard because we are ill equipped to deal with personal conflict and brush it under the carpet or try to deal with it as an intervention issue and not just like EVERY other issue on other boards where the community discusses the issue and makes a non binding determination with a consensus. Yes, I agree with lightbreather that we need something so, sometime back I created Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Conflict Resolution to begin creating a board like what Lightbreather is asking about...while trying very hard not to be Wikiquette assistance. You see, Misplaced Pages has no etiquette, which is simply "a code of behavior that delineates expectations...". We also don't deal well with conflict and DR/N is absolutely not designed to deal with it, almost at all. My hope is still that someday we can have a WP:CRN, similar to WP:DRN that deals with content disputes but much simpler and styled like the other noticeboards to try and deal with personal conflict.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:45, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Dang, Newyorkbrad, PAIN - which was, wow, deleted over five years ago - is even closer to what I'm thinking about than the "Wikiquette assistance" board that was shut down two years ago. But for civility issues that have policies, it seems like something that ought to be resurrected. I don't know about other conduct issues, but if an editor personally attacks or harasses another, it is easy to prove. Such conduct should get one warning, then a short (72 hours?) ban or block, then, if repeated, a longer ban/block, and so on. I would wager, from my own experience and observation, that persistent, unsubstantiated personal attacks and harassment have driven away a lot of decent editors. Lightbreather (talk) 23:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh...I see, you are more concerned with personal attacks than conflict. Yeah....we have AN/I for that and it works well.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong. A CRN sounds great, too, but a lot of the comments I read in the old discussion, and some here, seem to say that civility is just too subjective to address effectively. Broadly, that may be true, but some things - like PA and harassment - are pretty easy to prove with evidence, or the lack of it. Lightbreather (talk) 00:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Oh...I see, you are more concerned with personal attacks than conflict. Yeah....we have AN/I for that and it works well.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Dang, Newyorkbrad, PAIN - which was, wow, deleted over five years ago - is even closer to what I'm thinking about than the "Wikiquette assistance" board that was shut down two years ago. But for civility issues that have policies, it seems like something that ought to be resurrected. I don't know about other conduct issues, but if an editor personally attacks or harasses another, it is easy to prove. Such conduct should get one warning, then a short (72 hours?) ban or block, then, if repeated, a longer ban/block, and so on. I would wager, from my own experience and observation, that persistent, unsubstantiated personal attacks and harassment have driven away a lot of decent editors. Lightbreather (talk) 23:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- CRN would not be about civility. It would be about personal conflict. What you seem to be suggesting is a board for strictly personal attacks and those are blockable offenses best dealt with by those with the tools on the board where such requests and reports are made. You state that "PA and harassment - are pretty easy to prove with evidence", really? Then what is the issue? I am not trying to be insulting, but I have spent the last few years of my Misplaced Pages "career" looking over these issues, volunteering at DRN, helping out at AN and ANI, as part of my effort to be a part of the solution, but have been harassed and attacked just for that. Personal attacks are the things that can be shown, but they don't always get resolved or sanctioned. The community needs to take control of the issue in the same manner as all other issues....with consensus.--Mark Miller (talk) 09:22, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- On WQA our goal was not to "enforce" civility - it was to be a neutral 3rd (and 4th and 5th) party to help to break down the barriers to communication, and to advise people that civil communication was taken seriously. It was intended to stop possibly escalating incivility before it led to personal attacks. If the incident was already a heinous personal attack, or needlessly escalated into personal attacks, then we would report it to ANI for immediate action the panda ₯’ 20:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- That seems like a great service to the community! Too bad it was closed. And too soon, it seems. From the discussion at the time, it seems like the board's function was to be diverted to a 3O board for conduct (as opposed to content), or to a WP:SANITY check process. For whatever reason, such oversight seems to have fallen through the cracks. Lightbreather (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- An (IMO) peculiar aspect of the decision is that WQA was abolished on the basis that there was no need for it, but some of the key editors who promoted that subsequently tried to get 3O to take on the role (even though there was, supposedly, no need for it). But, in the end, 3O didn't want that role (understandably, because, realistically, it would have just meant constantly sign-posting people to ANI). A new hybrid WQA/3O board was suggested, but I don't think it was ever proposed. Formerip (talk) 00:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think that part of the reason is that ANI has been able to cope with the extra load, I really haven't noticed that much of an increase. If ANI starts buckling under the weight, it would probably create more interest in a separate board. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:49, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- An (IMO) peculiar aspect of the decision is that WQA was abolished on the basis that there was no need for it, but some of the key editors who promoted that subsequently tried to get 3O to take on the role (even though there was, supposedly, no need for it). But, in the end, 3O didn't want that role (understandably, because, realistically, it would have just meant constantly sign-posting people to ANI). A new hybrid WQA/3O board was suggested, but I don't think it was ever proposed. Formerip (talk) 00:44, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Realistically, all that fell on ANI, which has done "ok" in dealing with it, although not exceptional. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 00:13, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- It is what it is (god I hate that phrase...but here I am using it) but it does a better job than just OK...I do agree it is not exceptional, but then neither is Misplaced Pages in general from the perception of many. I am not sure where this discussion is going now...but I wait with baited breath to see where it leads.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Since I started the discussion, I'll say that I'm still digesting all of the comments here and in the links given. It's almost overwhelming. Lightbreather (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Well, that's the backroom politics of Misplaced Pages for ya ... the panda ₯’ 08:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- Since I started the discussion, I'll say that I'm still digesting all of the comments here and in the links given. It's almost overwhelming. Lightbreather (talk) 00:28, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- It is what it is (god I hate that phrase...but here I am using it) but it does a better job than just OK...I do agree it is not exceptional, but then neither is Misplaced Pages in general from the perception of many. I am not sure where this discussion is going now...but I wait with baited breath to see where it leads.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:18, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- That seems like a great service to the community! Too bad it was closed. And too soon, it seems. From the discussion at the time, it seems like the board's function was to be diverted to a 3O board for conduct (as opposed to content), or to a WP:SANITY check process. For whatever reason, such oversight seems to have fallen through the cracks. Lightbreather (talk) 00:05, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
As some have suggested above, it is a procedural and process failure. Civility is enforced ad hoc from social pressure to lecture, to forms of suppression, to block, to on up. So, if there were a will to regularize process you would want some standards and assessment: eg., if a good number uninvolved people say, 'geez, just stop that' you are assessed a point, a number of points leads to a 24 hour; a repeat with a lower number of points leads to 48 etc. You will always have the problem of the 'you are incivil' 'no, you are incivil' but that's no different from the problem of 'you are POV', 'no, you are POV'. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
RFC Closing Questions
First, if an RFC is closed, should it be deleted from the list of RFCs awaiting closure? I assume that is yes.
Second, if it is difficult to determine consensus, possibly because the RFC had few responses and did not have a proper Survey section, so that it is hard to tell what the !votes are, should this be noted in the closure, with a comment to the effect that a better-formed RFC can be opened if there is a desire to get better consensus? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- When closing, the closer should pull the template, and the bot will automatically delist in time. If the RFC hasn't had much participation, it should be relisted. instead of closed, like we do AFDs. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 23:43, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
- What template? Where are the instructions about the template? My question is whether the entry in WP:AN should be deleted. I don't think that is done by a bot. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:41, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- I believe Dennis thought you were referring to the article talk page, so he is referring to the RfC template. Yes, the entry at AN is deleted and archived manually; the current archive is Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 13. For discussions I've closed, I place a {{done}} template and let someone else do the archiving, in case anyone wants to check my conclusions.
- If it is difficult to determine consensus, I would say that this very much requires a case-by-case approach - though take this with a grain of salt, since I've only been doing closures for a few months now. I haven't seen any RfCs get relisted yet, but if you think the formulation of the RfC is an issue (which sounds like it might be the case in your example), I would let the editors start a new RfC with better wording or instructions, and might make recommendations on how to do that. I can usually determine editors' opinions even without a proper Survey section, but if I couldn't I would probably leave the close for someone more familiar with the topic. Sunrise (talk) 04:07, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
- The difference between AFD and RFC is of course that AFD asks one question: "Should article (Name) be deleted, with known alternatives such as Merge and Redirect. An RFC asks whatever question is asked by its author and is formatted by the author. If the RFC doesn't have Survey and Threaded Discussion questions, and the question isn't clear, then it may not be possible to determine consensus. There are other reasons why there may not be consensus. If the issue is whether to include criticisms of a politician, then the Oppose !votes are clear, but if different editors support entering different criticisms, there is no clear consensus. I had to close that one with a recommendation to post a new RFC for each different criticism. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2014 (UTC)