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::So is this the reason to keep things as they are ?? after all the same "no-consensus" is about the current name , shape and content. ] 14:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC) ::So is this the reason to keep things as they are ?? after all the same "no-consensus" is about the current name , shape and content. ] 14:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

::: There is no consensus and we are not going to get one and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. For weeks, we've been kept hostage to activists (I am trying to be polite here) who are interested only in namecalling and inflammatory soapboxing. This cannot go on forever. I am moving the article ] to ] because that is what it is: allegations. ←] <sup>]</sup> 20:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:09, 4 July 2006

This page functions as a central discussion place to resolve this longstanding issue. Concrete workshopping at this page, discussion at the talk.

Proposal by User:KimvdLinde

My rough indication, with approximate proportions (rough estimates)

  • Apartheid: Central entrance page, contains following sections:
    • Definition of the term by law (20%)
    • Origin/history of the term (50%)
    • Derived usage in other contexts (30%)
      • Various countries
      • Other usages

Maybe supplemented with:

  • Israeli apartheid: If and only if the amount of relevant information is sufficient to warrant a split of from the main article. Short article.
  • Section on Apartheid Wall can remain where it is.
  • All remaining articles with apartheid in the header get deleted and the usefull information added to the aboe articles.

Based on this posting-- Kim van der Linde 15:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose per vote below on Jayjg's proposal. An article on "Apartheid" should be about South Africa because that is where it was a government policy. I also oppose any proposal that even leaves open the possibility of "Israeli apartheid", under whatever name, remaining an independent article. (Forgot to sign 6SJ7 12:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC))

Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to "Allegations of Israeli apartheid"

This poll was moved here inappropriately by anon 72.60.226.29 (talk · contribs). The actual poll is still at Misplaced Pages talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to Allegations of Israeli apartheid". It's inappropriate to move a poll in progress, because the edit history is lost, which makes checking votes difficult. --John Nagle 04:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Poll: Rename "Apartheid outside of South Africa" article to "Allegations of apartheid outside South Africa"

This poll was moved here inappropriately by anon 72.60.226.29 (talk · contribs). The actual poll is still at Misplaced Pages talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Apartheid outside of South Africa" article to "Allegations of apartheid outside South Africa". It's inappropriate to move a poll in progress, because the edit history is lost, which makes checking votes difficult. --John Nagle 04:19, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by User:Nagle

  • Resolve the Israeli apartheid -> "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" renaming issue first. Use whatever Misplaced Pages dispute resolution processes are necessary to get a decision on this that will stick. After that, regard that issue as closed.
  • Hold off on all other related renaming/moving/refactoring until that issue is decisively resolved.
  • Then reevaluate whether any of the other related articles should be changed.

Once that first key decision is resolved, the rest will fall into place, and we can move forward from there. --John Nagle 02:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Support I think it is clear that they are only allegations since there has been no decisive fact finding by any authorative body. --Ben Houston 02:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment The proposal and poll on Israeli apartheid -> "Allegations of Israeli apartheid" renaming has now been listed as a formal Misplaced Pages:Requested moves action item, with the poll at Misplaced Pages talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to "Allegations of Israeli apartheid". This starts the Misplaced Pages 5-day voting period for a proposed move that has been contested. --John Nagle 03:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The name of the "Israeli apartheid" article is just a temporary issue, while its separate existence is being determined. 6SJ7 12:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, this whole thing is about the Israeli apartheid article, the other articles are mostly part of that fight. We should sort out not only the name, but also the content of that article. Then and only then can we decide how the others can interact with that (central) article. --Coroebus 17:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support This is also acceptable. Homey 00:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. SlimVirgin 00:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Acceptable. CJCurrie 01:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. This should come first. BTW, please transfer this comment to any vote on "Israeli apartheid": unless the article on "new anti-Semitism" is moved to "allegations of new anti-Semitism", there is no way the "Israeli apartheid" article should be moved and to do so would be yet another example of POV editing on the part of the pro-Israel lobby here. Guys, you cannot give more positive labels to articles you do not like and not to ones you do! You do this all the time. Try to consider using a single standard and using it evenhandedly. Grace Note 02:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
If you want to vote on the proposed move, the page for that is at Misplaced Pages talk:Central discussions/Apartheid#Poll: Rename "Israeli apartheid" article to "Allegations of Israeli apartheid". Thanks. --John Nagle 02:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by Jayjg

1)Aside from sharing the term "apartheid" do Israeli Apartheid, Gender apartheid, Sexual apartheid, Global apartheid have enough in common to justify being in the same article? Wouldn't this be a grab-bag article?
2) As a number of countries listed under Apartheid outside of South Africa are accused of gender apartheid, doesn't it make more sense to merge those sections of the former article into the latter?
3) Do you envision the entire Israeli apartheid article being put into Allegations of apartheid outside of South Africa or do you expect it to be shortened?
4) Doesn't the title Allegations of apartheid outside of South Africa assume that South Africa is immune from gender apartheid, sexual apartheid and global apartheid as the title explictly excludes that contry?Homey 01:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
1) The commonality is obvious; the use of the term "apartheid" to designate some alleged discrimination by one group against another.
2) The countries often have multiple accusations of "apartheid" made against them; as a simple example, Saudi Arabia has been accused of gender, sexual, and religious apartheid. Also, the terms themselves tend to be nebulous; they mean different things to different people in different situations, and sometimes even in the same situation.
3) Most of it, I'd imagine. Ideally it should be cleaned up to use the best possible sources, but that probably wouldn't change the size very much, just the choice of sources. I suspect the sections on other countries would grow a little; there's lots of information out there, and I've only started fleshing some of them out.
4) Good point. I've fixed that. Jayjg 01:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Why not simply have a disambiguation page that links to the various articles and sections of other articles?
Wouldn't the size of Israeli apartheid dwarf the rest of the page. Isn't it the usual practice on such pages to have a one paragraph synopsis and then a link to a larger article? As User:Gatoclass said on Talk:Apartheid outside of South Africa: "I think the "Israel" section is too long in comparison to the rest of the article. It seems to me that the obvious thing to do is keep the Israeli apartheid page a separate one, with a precis of that article here and a link to the Israeli apartheid page as the main entry on this subject. Gatoclass 23:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)"
Thinking of users, is a reader not more likely to be looking for an article called "Global apartheid" or "Gender apartheid" or "Israeli apartheid" than a catchall article called "Allegations of apartheid"? Homey 01:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
1) Disambiguation pages are for disambiguating; it wouldn't be necessary in this case, since the articles in question would be comprehensive and would provide much needed context.
2) If the Israeli apartheid section turns out to be much larger than the others, then decisions can be made about sub-pages at that time. That's the way editing is normally done, first you write the article, then, if it gets too large, you breakout sub-articles; you don't decide on a sub-article before you've even completed the main article. As well, the sections on other countries are likely to grow, as I said above; there's lots of material out there, and little of it has been incorporated into the article yet.
3) If that is the case, then those can easily be re-directs to the broader article, which will be much more informative; that's what re-directs are for. Jayjg 01:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
As Gatoclass points out, the Israeli apartheid "sub-article" as you refer to it is already "too long" for your compilation article. As the article seems to be getting longer by the day at what point do you think it would be "too large" and require a "breakout sub-article"?Homey 02:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate that Gatoclass holds that opinion, but others certainly differ. We'll have to see what happens; this shouldn't be a pre-decided thing, but rather a natural, organic process, as happens with all other articles. Also, I note that that all sorts of "apartheid" allegations are made, beyond the simplistic "global, sexual, and gender" ones, such as "urban apartheid", "social apartheid", "economic apartheid", "Muslim apartheid", "hidden apartheid", etc. - and this ignores the overlap between "gender" and "sexual" apartheid. "Apartheid", of whatever kind, tends to be a fuzzy epithet mostly indicating an alleged discrimination of some sort - artificial divisions into lots of stubby articles misinforms the reader. Jayjg 02:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
shoreting the article to it's reasoanble appropriate length could be a solution. Misplaced Pages NPOV policy clearly sais that minority view of minor groups should not be given space here at all. On that ground alone this article should not have existed. Zeq 12:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for revealing the hidden agenda in this proposal - ie to evade the unsuccessful AFD and try to truncate and ultimately destroy the Israeli aparatheid article. The way to deal with the issue if you think the article is not NPOV is to edit, not to use sleight of hand to try to make an article you don't like disappear.Homey 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There is no hidden agenda The article need to be both shorter and NPOV. Zeq 15:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per SV and Zeq's solution for the "article too long" objection. Isarig 14:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support having all of the allegation together the article can better compare and contrast where (if ever) the term is appropriate outside of South Africa. Jon513 16:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose at present, Israeli apartheid article is too long (and getting longer by the day), don't think global apartheid fits, but, as I think I mentioned at its AFD, I think it's potentially an interesting topic we haven't addressed. I'm probably still inclined towards my merge into discrimination etc arguments I made at the figurative apartheid AFDs too. I think this is not going to be a satisfactory solution of the Israeli apartheid problem (which is why we're all here), and probably just shifts the fight to a new page. If we could negotiate a sensible shortish Israeli apartheid article (which everyone appears to be trying their hardest to prevent) I might support its merger, but it currently doesn't look like that's going to happen. --Coroebus 17:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose this is the right-wing pro-Israel proposal (as evidenced by its proposal by Jayjg and its complete support by that faction -- if you are wondering who many in this faction are, see the first 7 support votes above) that attempts to bury the article, Israeli apartheid, that they disagree with. (It should be noted that this is only one of a few POV-pushing factions on Misplaced Pages that are tied to a religion -- there is also a well known Christianity-related group and a more recent Islam-related one. These special interest groups weild a lot of influence on Misplaced Pages via their coordination.) --Ben Houston 18:34, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Right-wing? Wow, people who actually know me would be pretty surprised to hear that. Pro-Israel I will admit to, but only when they're right. 6SJ7 20:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I struck the right-wing mention. My perspective is based on reading Haaretz on a fairly regular basis -- a newspaper that is fairly left-wing but also implicitly pro-Israel that I find myself in agreement with. I do not share the same views as this block, even though I am not pro-Arab nor anti-Israel -- thus I tried to find an additional differentiating descriptive term to add to pro-Israel. --Ben Houston 21:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment - BH, could you find anything better than to allege some Zionist conspiracy? As if this whole issue is not politicized and polarized enough. ←Humus sapiens 22:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment - Humus sapiens, you can make any baseless deflamatory claims you want but I can't help but notice that you just recently featured prominently a link to this page on the Jewish history WikiProject (see here ) even though this page is not really about Jewish history but of modern Israeli politics. That same behavior, when done by someone of the Islam project was considered by Pecher as vote solicitation, see and similar behavior by the Muslim Guild was criticized by Timothy Usher, see . Thus in concrete terms, according to Pecher, you are soliciting votes. --Ben Houston 23:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't the one who chose to radicalize and polarize this area of WP. Do not expect others to sit still while unjust defamatory accusations are being made against a community. AFAIK, there is no Jewish guild or Zionist cabal, but thank you for keeping a watchful eye on my clandestine activities. ←Humus sapiens 00:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
In the first two sentences of your response you implicitly admit my main point. In the first sentence you make clear that there is radicalization and polarization going on and you imply that you are part of it, but only acting in retaliation. In the second sentence you make it clear that this is about protecting "a community" from "unjust defamatory attacks" -- this completely aligns with my description that there is a pro-Israel faction. Thus in your view it is legitimate to defend the community from attacks and it wasn't you that started it. I do not contest your perspective of things. But you are admitting that there is an aligned group of editors who are working to protect "a community" from what they see as attacks -- this is my point just with a different perspective. The last sentence is strange since it goes back to denying there might be any community-aligned interests among editors -- but you just made clear in the previous two sentences that there was. There doesn't have to be a cabal or conspiracy -- and I never made such a claim. --Ben Houston 21:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per all my past comments supporting basically the same thing. In fact somewhere on the article's talk page there is a comment entitled "Global Proposal" or something like that, that was mine from about 3 weeks ago and it is very similar to this. 6SJ7 20:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose At the end of the day the Palestinians will still be regarded as second-class citizens persons, they will still be subjected to unjust collective punishment, humiliated at checkpoints, refused much of the liberties the rest of us take for granted. At the end of the day The Guardian, Tutu, Meretz, etc, will still talk about Israeli apartheid. The Likudniks may be successful in their hasbara attempt to bury this article; the tragedy of it all is that they haven't realized what us Jewish Meretz liberals have - that their misguided efforts to protect the homeland is detrimental to the long-term security of Israel. The right of the state of Israel to exist is absolute, a right to be excluded from essential and valid criticisms is nonexistent. And it's not a 50-50 situation, it's entirely reasonably to expect more from the wealthy democracy Israel than from an unorganised Palestinian people. Article20 21:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
    • This harangue has nothing to do either with Misplaced Pages in general or with the apartheid articles in particular. Article20 is simply using this page to push a POV on particular issues. I can only remark that Palestinians cannot be second-class citizens by definition because they are not Israeli citizens. Pecher 22:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Funnily enough, the precise same argument was made in apartheid South Africa where the citizenship of Blacks was transferred form South Africa to the various Bantustans. Homey 23:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
          • But no such "transfer" of citizenship occured in Israel, demonstrating the paucity of your analogy. In fact, were you honestly interested in drawing parallels between South Africa and ths situation in the West Bank, vs. using it as an Israel-bashing stick, you'd be creating articles named "Jordanian Apartheid", as it was Jordan who "transferred" the citizenship of its West bank citizens to the Palestinian Authority. Isarig 23:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
      • (persons instead of citizens) Read my comment in the context of the essay Misplaced Pages:Notability. Article20 23:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Comment - we are not negotiating the resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict here. Article20, you just confirmed that this is being used as a propaganda weapon against Israel. Thank you. ←Humus sapiens 22:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Certain government policies, not the country. And thank you for confirming that opposition to the phrase has nothing to do with it's encyclopaedic merits (or lack thereof), but with misguided attempts to "defend" Israel. A "defence" that Israel would be better off without as it is only concerned with appearances, and not with the underlying reality. Article20 23:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
It is deceiving to say that those who compare Israel with Nazi Germany and single it out for demonization (and not Iran, Burma, N.Korea or Saudi Arabia) are concerned with "Certain government policies, not the country." ←Humus sapiens 02:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Compare Israel with South Africa. So you say it's unfair to criticize Israel for it's treatment of Palestinians when there is a Kim Jong-Il in North Korea or the corrupt Saudi family in Saudi Arabia. It's equally unfair I suppose to criticise Kim Jong-Il as he isn't as bad as Pol Pot, or to criticize Pol Pot as he isn't as bad as Hitler. Basically what you saying is; to criticize is to demonise and should never be done (as long as the target of criticism isn't the Palestinians of course). One reason people talk more about Israel than Burma could be that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the single most serious (political) problem facing Humanity today (with China-Taiwan and Kashmir as runner-ups). A way forward is to engage in honest discussions, not pathetic hasbara games. Article20 11:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
This is not the page for you to promote your view that the analogy is accurate; please take it elsewhere, preferably to an off-Misplaced Pages blog. Jayjg 11:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
A claim such as "This is not the page for you to promote your view that the analogy is accurate" (emphasis mine) is both untrue and a violation of policy. It has no place anywhere on Misplaced Pages, and certainly not here, which is where we're supposed to be having a serious discussion. Please take this page (and policy) seriously. Article20 12:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
No, it's the political opinions of editors that have no place here, because they're of no relevance. SlimVirgin 12:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
From Misplaced Pages talk:Central discussions/Apartheid: "Agree if this is the only option, although I'm totally confused about what's going on. There's no such thing as "Israeli apartheid," except that it's used as an insult by pro-Palestinian activists and neo-Nazis, and so it should be Israeli apartheid (term), or better still it should be merged into an article called Apartheid (term), which lists every country this accusation has been made of, or it could be called Use of the term Apartheid outside South Africa. It seems this whole Apartheid mess was started because someone wanted to create a stick to beat Israel with. That's not what Misplaced Pages's about, so we should try to find an across-the-board solution that takes the stick out of people's hands. SlimVirgin (talk) 06:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)" Article20 12:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
That's not a political opinion. There is as a matter of fact nothing resembling apartheid in Israel. There are people who believe there is differential treatment of certain citizens and they are drawing an analogy between that and apartheid. No one believes there is actually an apartheid system there. The above reiterated that, and made suggestions about how to proceed with the articles, so take your views and your digs somewhere else. SlimVirgin 12:35, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
A matter of fact eh? So if you possess objective facts and I simply have views I suppose I should rely on you to make sure information is presented in a NPOV fashion. I happen to agree with you that Israel isn't an apartheid state, but the oppression of Palestinians have been addressed by notable scholars and statesmen in the context of an apartheid analogy, thus the analogy is notable enough for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Irregardless of your political facts and my political opinions. A fringe minority advocates the use of the phrase New anti-Semitism (and in the process give sanction to claims made by the far-right, euro-nationalists, neonazis, KKK, etc), yet there is such an article. The people who advocate the notion that Israel is (similar to) an apartheid state isn't a fringe minority. Also, I take my views (and sometimes my digs) with me wherever I go. Article20 13:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Article20, you say the "Israeli apartheid" analogy is notable enough for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. At this point, I have to agree. However wrongheaded and ridiculous I think the analogy is, enough people have decided to beat Israel over the head with it, that it warrants some mention. But that is not what this whole discussion has been about. What almost all of the discussion and all the debates, edit wars, reverts, page-moves, harassment, stalking etc. have been about is whether this subject deserves its own article, and if so, whether that article should have a title that makes clear that it deals only with an accusation and not with reality. The only reason for a separate article is so that some people can derive pleasure from a "headline" attacking Israel. And that's not a good enough reason for a separate article. 6SJ7 14:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC) (Edited 6SJ7 14:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC))
  • Oppose per Article20. The fact that Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaaza and has not given Palestinians equivalence in rights only suggests the Israeli situation is considerably worse than South Africa's aparthied. The dictionary definition of aparthied doens't mention that the separation has to be from groups within a single citizenry, so that's irrelevant. It's aparthied nonetheless. His Excellency... 23:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I took the liberty to move His excellency/Amibidhrohi's vote out of the middle of above discussion. It seems that the accusatory side still cannot decide whether to apply this "term" to Israeli Arabs or GS&WB. The only goal is to besmirch Israel. ←Humus sapiens 02:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
    • His Excellency's missive illustrates perfectly why this article is trash - he actually believes the lie that this piece of rhetoric (and article) is intended to propagate, even if that means trivializing the suffering of millions of South Africans. --Leifern 10:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose There is no valid reason why Israeli Apartheid cannot remain a separate, autonomous and NPOV article. I'm willing to discuss changes to the title, but there's no need to merge the content elsewhere. CJCurrie 00:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Semi support. The "Israeli apartheid" article should be kept for the same reason we have a "new anti-Semitism" article. However, it should not be discussed in the context of South African apartheid. Serious commentators rarely do that and I think at least that part of Jay's solution that keeps the apartheid article from being in any great part about Israel is a good idea. Grace Note 02:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, reluctantly. The proposal would mean that the South African editors will have to deal with us and our disputes, and I don't think that's fair. See this comment by a South African editor: "The consensus, achieved after much discussion and upheld over several years, is that Apartheid should redirect to History of South Africa in the Apartheid Era as the article about the official use of the term. The longer name is to prevent confusion and controversial editing involving other countries (in particular Israel) from taking place at that location. That debate should not take place under the official Apartheid heading as it is very much secondary to the official historical use of the term in South Africa. If you would read the many archives at both Talk:Apartheid and Talk:History of South Africa in the Apartheid Era you would see that your recent editing of the page Apartheid is a perhaps unintentional hijacking of this topic. Again, I respectfully ask that you allow it to be returned to the previous status quo. Otherwise I've absolutely no doubt that a great many editors of the South African article will disagree with your move and see it as unilateral. Zaian 21:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)" -- Su-Laine Yeo 03:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Reasonable and excellent solution. --MPerel 06:04, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose; see my comment quoted by Su-laine Yeo above. Zaian 08:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. --Leifern 10:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per nom. -- Heptor talk 21:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. --Ian Pitchford 10:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Xed 06:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by User:Bhouston

  • I favor a new main Apartheid article with sections on the origin with brief history of South Africa (with link to main article), a brief blurb on development of the crime of apartheid (with link to main article), and then it would briefly how the term has entered into public discourse in a non-scientific way with list of examples.
  • Jayjg is against on principle the existence of the article Israeli apartheid - I see the article as legitimate since it discusses something that is talked about in various places, especially if it covers many different POVs in a neutral fashion.
  • Apartheid (disambiguation) can stay in IMO -- it would be better to list in that the various sexual apartheid, gender apartheid, religious apartheid forms -- mostly because it would be scientificially improper to try to fit them into an apartheid article more than just a brief mention in the public discourse section -- it would be OR to link them unless reputable did, right now they only share the term apartheid -- also, normally such a page would not be contentious but it is because of the Israeli apartheid that the dab is now politically charged. Jayjg is emotional about the current topic and thus his suggestions are based more on trying to achieve a political end, not how best to cover a topic in Misplaced Pages -- which is unfortunate. --Ben Houston 00:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Bhouston, do you think you could make your proposal based on its merits alone, rather than being a proposal about your bad faith and uncivil assumptions about me? Claims such as "Jayjg is emotional about the current topic and thus his suggestions are based more on trying to achieve a political end, not how best to cover a topic in Misplaced Pages -- which is unfortunate." are both untrue and a violation of policy. They have no place anywhere on Misplaced Pages, and certainly not here, which is where we're supposed to be having a serious discussion. Jayjg 02:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Kettle, pot? You said just today that the Apartheid outside of South Africa "is the main article, the other is a stub which exists for political purposes only" () That comment of yours doesn't seem to be assuming good faith either does it? It seems like you hold others to standards you do not hold yourself too. --Ben Houston 02:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
        • I haven't referred to any specific editors, I definitely haven't speculated about their emotional states, and I certainly haven't made that comment on this page. Please take this page (and policy) seriously. Jayjg 03:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
We all know that there's a number of agendas here, so no need for self righteousness from any side. --Coroebus 17:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps, but even more importantly there's no need for Ben's egregious policy violations which he has now extended to claims of Zionist conspiracies. Jayjg 11:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mention any Zionist conspiracies, that is a mischaracterization from User:Humus sapiens intended to defame me and distract from the accurate content of what I said. --Ben Houston 21:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Proposal by User:Humus sapiens

I modified Jayjg's proposal to meet the requirements by Zaian and Su-Laine Yeo.

  • Support as nom (standing on the shoulders of giants) - this would be my second choice after Jayjg's proposal. I am strongly against a separate article titled Israeli Apartheid because it is disgustingly offensive (by design), just as Judeofascism or Zionazi, and just as the former, it should say "This page has been deleted, and should not be re-created without a good reason" or just as the latter, it should redirect to a neutral title. ←Humus sapiens 10:46, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support as far as the naming of the South African articles go. Abstain (with respect) from the debate around the Israeli Apartheid article. Zaian 10:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - POV suggestion. Analogy of Israeli apartheid is well established in scholarly works, journalism and political discourse both amongst Jewish Israelis and between Israel and critics. This certainly isn't the case with neologisms such as Judeofascism and Zionazi. Homey 11:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - unless someone deletes New anti-Semitism (advocate piece for the far-right), Race and Intelligence (advocate piece for racists), Christian Zionism (it's not really Zionism if it's about converting/killing Jews when the apocalypse comes), War on terror (more like war for the sake of war), Axis of evil (countries can't be evil, only people) - all of which I find "disgustingly offensive". Article20 11:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. CJCurrie 11:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support per nom and my past comments. I think Jay's proposal is the most logical, but if this is not acceptable because of the desire to "insulate" the Apartheid-in-South-Africa article from the debate over Israel, I can support this as second-best. 6SJ7 17:12, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose, not sure about trying to dismember the Israeli apartheid article, can you spell out how your proposal differs from Kim's and Bhouston's? --Coroebus 20:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Conditional Support - everything in the proposal sounds like something I can support except for the insistence that the Israeli Apartheid article be merged or discontinued. It seems arbitrary, and improper, to discontinue this article when it has real coherent content. I will support your if you modify it to allow for the continued existence of the Israeli Apartheid article (potentially renamed as "Allegations of Israeli Apartheid" or something similar.) --Ben Houston 21:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment. As a compromise, I could agree to keep it as a separate article - on the condition of being neutrally titled (not sure "Allegations of ..." is the best, but it is definitely better than the current offensive title). Unfortunately, it is clear by now that certain editors are here only to besmirch Israel and unfortunately, they don't meet much resistance on these pages. ←Humus sapiens 06:33, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Humus, if you are serious about your compromise then you should modify your proposal accordingly so people know what they are voting on. As for your comments about the motivations of "certain editors", read WP:AGF. Homey 06:34, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Though in my opinion Allegations of apartheid - should be called Apartheid (epithet). -- tasc deeds 07:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Another sensible proposal. -- Heptor talk 21:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Very good proposal. Pecher 14:23, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

*Oppose - merging Israeli apartheid not practical. Homey 15:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)struck out accidental second voteHomey 20:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Humus, I notice that some people are voting on your second proposal but not on your first - it's not clear whether you are presenting two proposals or if the revised proposal below is not being presented instead of your first one. If it's the latter could you please clearly indicate (maybe by striking out) that this first proposal has been withdrawn? If not could you please clearly state that this first proposal is still in play?Homey 15:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
... And I notice that you voted against his first proposal twice, I presume that you tried to vote against the second proposal? Apparently, Humus's compromise is an attempt for a settlement of differences in which each side makes concessions. -- Heptor talk 18:00, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
My mistake - though, if this proposal has been withdrawn then it hardly matters. Humus, can you please clarify?Homey 18:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
No, it wasn't withdrawn. ←Humus sapiens 20:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Revised proposal by User:Humus sapiens

Per request, I am spelling out a compromise.

Proposals by User:Gatoclass

Since everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon with their own proposals I thought I might as well add my own as well, so here they are:

(1). I propose that the Apartheid article be either formally or informally made into a disambiguation page laying emphasis on the "History of Apartheid in South Africa" article, followed by links to all the other apartheid topics, such as Crime of Apartheid, Apartheid outside South Africa, Israeli Apartheid, Global Apartheid, Gender Apartheid, Sexual Apartheid etc. Seems to me this is the obvious way to deal with this topic.

(2). I propose that the Global/Gender/Sexual apartheid articles, which are little more than stubs as they are, could be easily merged into the "Apartheid outside South Africa" article and deleted as separate articles, and therefore should be.

(3). I propose that the "Israeli Apartheid" article is too large and complex a topic to fit comfortably into the "Apartheid outside South Africa" article or indeed any other, and therefore must remain a separate topic, with no more than a brief reference to it in the "Apartheid outside South Africa" article. Quite frankly, I think it's completely unrealistic and impractical to try and shoehorn this already quite long article into another one, where it's going to completely unbalance the rest of the contents, so I think it's time this idea was dropped.

If users disagree with any of my proposals, could they please include some sort of reason why they disagree so discussion can continue.

Agree/Disagree with (1):

Agree Gatoclass 03:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Disagree. Apartheid is a South African phenomena. Therefore it should be name of the article.-- tasc deeds 08:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Disagree with having it be a dab page. An article is needed to explain the concept of apartheid in general: the dictionary confirms that it has meaning outside of a South African context; whether it's appropriate to use it outside of such a context is a matter of POV, and Misplaced Pages should not weigh in on such an issue, but simply report on it neutrally. What is currently "Apartheid outside of South Africa" should be broadened to a general article about all the common uses of the word apartheid, and moved to apartheid: it will functionally be a disambiguation page, since it will provide links to all the relevant articles, but it will be much more useful than a real dab page since it will also explain the different uses, and be able to provide references and context for each usage. -Silence 15:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Disagree, per Tasc and my other comments on this page. I also disagree with Silence's suggestion that also makes apartheid essentially a disambiguation page, rather than being the primary article about South African apartheid. Zaian 17:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Disagree per all above. Pecher 11:46, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Disagree Zeq 07:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree/Disagree with (2):

Agree Gatoclass 03:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

That's an argument against the current name of the article, not an argument against merging the three articles mentioned into the article currently called "Apartheid outside of South Africa". Gatoclass 10:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree, except that "Apartheid outside of South Africa" should be moved to just Apartheid. For one, it's shorter, simpler, and easier to access. For another, it doesn't imply that apartheid exists outside of South Africa, which is just one POV among several. For a third, "sexual/gender apartheid" isn't necessarily exclusively "outside of South Africa"—gender discrimination can occur everywhere in the world, including South Africa. We avoid all potential complications and problems by simply moving "Apartheid outside of South Africa" to "Apartheid" and providing an explanation and link in the very first sentence of that article that the term's most legitimate and uncontroversial usage is in reference to the historical South Africa article. -Silence 15:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: please do not lose sight of the fact that apartheid in South Africa is the main article, as it is very much more significant than other uses of the term. Therefore the South African apartheid article should be what someone finds if they go to Apartheid; this name should not be hijacked to become a disambiguation or generic page with merely a link to History of South Africa in the apartheid era. It should be the other way round, with the main South African article providing a link to the page on other uses of the term. I could introduce accusations of cultural imperialism, belittling the suffering of our African brothers and sisters, etc, but I'll leave those to your imagination ;-) Zaian 17:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
this name should not be hijacked to become a disambiguation or generic page with merely a link to History of South Africa in the apartheid era.
I didn't suggest it should be Zaian. What I suggested is that "apartheid" should take one to a defacto dab page that lays emphasis on the Apartheid in South Africa article.
However, I think one could probably also make a case for linking "apartheid" directly to the "Apartheid in SA" page, with the disambiguation link at the top of that page. That seems to be the way things are handled in at least some other articles I've seen, so it could arguably be used here as well. It would not be my preferred choice though. Personally, I think any word or phrase that has multiple entries should link to a dab page first, but I'm not sure if this approach conforms to Wiki style. Gatoclass 10:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Agree on condition that "Apartheid outside of South Africa" is moved to a better and grammatically correct title, for example "Apartheid (political epithet)". Pecher 11:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree/Disagree with (3):

Agree Gatoclass 03:27, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Strongly oppose parts 1 and 3 of this proposal for same reasons as above. "Israeli apartheid" can and should be cut down to a reasonable size and made part of another article per proposal of Humus. 6SJ7 06:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
And it "should be cut down" in size because...? Gatoclass 06:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Because it's just a political epithet? -- tasc deeds 08:01, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It may be "just a political epithet" from your POV, but from the POV of those who employ the term, it's a political reality.
But in any case, that is beside the point. The point is that the arguments in support of the notion of Israeli apartheid are multiple and complex and cannot be summed up in a paragraph or two, and likewise, neither can the arguments against. You can't just squeeze this subject under a generic heading, because it's bound to keep expanding beyond the brief summary that such an approach would necessitate.
That's why I say it's simply unrealistic to try and deal with it that way. Unrealistic, and artificial, because if this particular subject didn't happen to give offence to some people, I don't believe that anyone would be arguing for a minute that a subject of this complexity should not be dealt with under its own heading. Gatoclass 10:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
If this particular subject did not "give offense," I doubt the article would exist in the first place. Its entire purpose is to offend, and to propagandize. And I don't see what's really so complex about it. Some people have found a word that they are using to beat Israel over the head, and other people are objecting to it. It all sort of pales in importance next to the actual fighting that is going on over there right now. 6SJ7 14:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry 6S, but I think it's just nonsense to say the subject only exists "to give offence". The comparison between Israel and apartheid SA has been used by historians, academics, writers, journalists, politicians and people of note, you can't just pretend it's an invention by some Wikipedian designed to "give offence".
The concept of Israel as an apartheid state is one that has a significant degree of currency in public discourse, if you are not aware of this then I can only assume it's because you haven't been paying much attention to what critics of Israel have to say. Gatoclass 02:26, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I totally agree Silence that there should be a paragraph about Israeli apartheid in the "apartheid outside SA" page, with a link to the larger article. All I'm arguing for in this proposal is that "Israeli apartheid" needs to be kept as a dedicated article, and not merged into another article while the dedicated article is then deleted. Gatoclass 10:50, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


Proposal by Su-Laine (User:Su-laine.yeo)

Please see the rationale section I've put on the Talk page.

I propose that the articles link to each other as follows:



  • Support - Systemic Discrimination in Israel and the Occupied Territories can deal with how the older Palestinians regularly discriminate against the teenagers. It could also be a useful place to explore issues regarding the gay community within the Druze community. However, the Crime of apartheid article should be merged with Apartheid (political epithet) as it deals with the concept of apartheid outside of its original (South African) meaning. You also wrote on the talk page; "I find it truly surreal that Israel's 2005 withdrawal from the Gaza strip is being given as an example of apartheid." to which I can only agree. The Palestinians have their airport and their sea harbours and during the holidays they can invite the cousins from the West Bank. They have their country now - and absolutely no reason to complain. Article20 00:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
For the record, I think the Palestians have good reasons to complain. What I specifically disagreed with is the idea that the withdrawal in 2005 was apartheid.Su-Laine Yeo 01:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - as has been said ad nauseum parthenticals should only be used for purposes of disimbiguation. As well, while some see the term as an epithet, others do not, for the article to take a stand in its title is POV.Homey 00:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Disambiguation is called for because this article is about the secondary rather than the primary meaning of the term. It is consistent with Fascist (epithet). "If "Apartheid (political epithet)" was called "Apartheid (political term)" or "Modern uses of the term "apartheid" " would you still object? Regarding discrimination against people other than Palestinians in Israel, sure why not have the article include it. Su-Laine Yeo 00:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
describing the term apartheid as an "epithet" is POV and completely contradicts the fact that "apartheid" has been recognised as a crime in international law, specifically in the Rome Statute that established the International Criminal Court. Article 20 also hits on an interesting point - "systemic discrimination" can refer to discrimination against gays and lesbians, women, secular Jews, religious Jews etc not just the treatment of PalestiniansHomey 00:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, Homey, the problem with a heading like this is that it's going to create a dog's breakfast of an entry. I've been reviewing some of the articles on Israel in the last few days and there are already a plethora of them that do nothing but utterly obfuscate the very issues they were designed to elucidate, and Wiki certainly doesn't need another one. Gatoclass 04:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The term "apartheid" is sometimes used in the strict sense of international law, and often in the colloquial sense of "discrimination reminiscent of South Africa." It has both formal and informal meanings. When used informally, I think it meets the definition of an epithet but I'm flexible on whether we call it that in the article title. I've given some alternatives. Su-Laine Yeo 08:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
And we shouldn't dismiss the meaning under international law by putting "epithet" in the title. For all we know, for instance, "gender apartheid" may result in a case being made against offenders under international law or a petition to the ICC or ICJ may be made accusing countries that ban same-sex marriage of practicing "sexual apartheid".Homey 18:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

so we have this discussion and propsals and ...

Is anything from this discussion ever made it to the article ? Zeq 14:37, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

No, because litterally everything ends up in a no-consensus. -- Kim van der Linde 14:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
So is this the reason to keep things as they are ?? after all the same "no-consensus" is about the current name , shape and content. Zeq 14:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
There is no consensus and we are not going to get one and to pretend otherwise is dishonest. For weeks, we've been kept hostage to activists (I am trying to be polite here) who are interested only in namecalling and inflammatory soapboxing. This cannot go on forever. I am moving the article Israeli Apartheid to Allegations of Israeli apartheid because that is what it is: allegations. ←Humus sapiens 20:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)