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More facts

To be fair, most other Misplaced Pages articles on cities don't really mention some of the major problems of those cities, as I've just begun to notice. In my opinion we should set an example rather than follow suit. Maybe we could start a general discussion on this somewhere - Village Pump, etc. -- Simonides 23:38, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with describing problems, but I think it's important to keep them in context and give them proportional amount of attention. For example, I regret the fact that five Japanese tourists were beaten during a soccer game broadcast, but given that we're writing an article about a 850 years old city with over 10 million people living in it - really, is it worth mentioning?.. How many people are beaten in any large city every day? The description of the incident takes more space in the Sports section then Olympic games! Isn't that ridiculous?!.. Don't we have more important things to write about?

Context is important, and it is true that Moscow is more dangerous a city for foreigners than is London, NYC, or Paris. -- Simonides

And I assume you have the data to support this fact, right? Azov 06:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC) Ok, I found the data. You're right about London, NYC, or Paris. People from LA or Chicago, however, would be safer then home. Azov 17:49, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't recall seeing any mention of the Japanese tourists here, maybe you're thinking of someone else, but it is important to mention the violent and often racist crime in Moscow as it is very common, and also because the government and the militia either do not acknowledge it is a widespread problem most of the time, or when they do, they trivialise and ignore it - again, if you think this is not verifiable, you should read more independent newspapers. I can't think of many more important things to write about than frequent occurrences of violent crime, but of course you're welcome to your opinion. -- Simonides 04:44, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I have to agree with most of what Simonides has said. The streets of Moscow are dangerous for foriegners. The more visibly different they are, the more dangerous. (Its not just Moscow though, I was recently in Tver and saw the spot where an African student was murdered by a gang of skinheads) Business in Moscow involves paying bribes. This is a fact - I challange Azov to find a single business person in Moscow who does not pay bribes. Moscow is more dangerous and corrupt than London (Where I now live - I can't say about NYC or Paris). Azov - as a native of the city, these are things you will not have encountered. I know nothing of racism in my home city (Limerick), however I have talked with foriegners there who do. This is the English language version of the Moscow article. 90% of readers are foriegners. Racism, corruption, violence should be mention, I would propose that it all be dealt with in a dedicated section. We should reference each statement. But this can be done by refering to news publication, for example , statistics are not always required. Seabhcán 10:03, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't say that we shouldn't mention problems. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't make blatant generalizations based purely on our guesswork. Yes, corruption definitely is a widespread problem. And it's perfectly ok to mention so. But, while it might look like nearly all businessmen in Moscow pay bribes, I didn't talk to all of them or conducted anything even remotely resembling a representative survey, and neither did you. We simply don't know. So, we shouldn't talk about "all" or "nearly all" unless there's data to support such statements. It's irrelevant whether I can find a single business person in Moscow who does not pay bribes (even though I can), we don't write articles based on our personal experience. It's not something I'm making up, it's an official Misplaced Pages policy. But of course we can - and should - use our personal experiences to dig verifiable data.

For example, here is some info on the crime rates (from World Association of International Studies, ):

There are very great misperceptions about crime in Russia. Although Russia had a burst of criminal activity in the chaotic middle 1990’s, the overall crime rates are very low. According to the United Nations Office for Drug Control and Crime Prevention, England has the highest crime rate among developed countries and Russia one of the lowest: Country Crimes per 100,000 population England and Wales 9,766 U.S. 8,517 South Africa 7,997 Germany 7,621 Russia 2,022 See, for example, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/798708/posts. One factor in Russia’s generally low crime rate is effective work of the police. Russia’s police are notoriously corrupt and are generally distrusted, but they achieve very high rates of success in solving crimes. Fully 76% of all murders are solved. The Russian police have apparently retained some of their police state skills. Once apprehended, criminals in Russia are treated harshly and are almost always imprisoned (they are no longer executed, as Russia implemented a moratorium on the death penalty in 1996). The statistics above concern all crimes; concerning murder, the picture is very different. The murder rate has fallen significantly from its peak in the middle 1990’s, but at around 15 per 100,000 population it is still by far the highest in Europe and is similar to the murder rate in less developed countries like Brazil and Mexico. Moscow remains the murder capital of Europe, with about 16 per 100,000 population, but Moscow, fitting between Los Angeles and Houston, is still safer than most big cities in the U.S.: Murder rates in selected U.S. cities: New Orleans 258 54.5 Washington 264 46.2 Detroit 402 43.5 Baltimore 253 39.6 St. Louis 111 32.8 Chicago 648 22.5 Philadelphia 288 19.3 Los Angeles 654 17.2 Houston 256 12.7 Boston 60 10.2 New York 590 7.3 Azov 17:52, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Hm, sure. They're relying on statistics provided by ... who? And what is the methodology involved for comparisons?

Let me repeat again and again, because it doesn't seem to get through to your Kremlin-coloured viewpoint: no matter how liberal, non-Soviet and non-violent a state your heavily censored TV and radio and all your pop shows convince you you're living in, the fact of the matter is that Russia is still way, way behind even dangerous and often fundamentalist countries like the U.S. in acknowledging, recording and handling domestic crime, especially violent racist crime, particularly since your own authorities perpetrate it. You must live in a nice sheltered home - I'm happy for you that your social circle may be one of the exceptions - but you really need to learn more about your city and your country. Why don't you read this for a change, it's dated and it mostly focuses on Chechnya, but the smattering they mention is enough to make any normal person sick - http://moscow.usembassy.gov/bilateral/human_rights_2004.php . Here's a nice little excerpt:

Reports by refugees, NGOs, and the press suggested a pattern of police beatings, arrests, and extortion directed at persons with dark skin or who appeared to be from the Caucasus, Central Asia, or Africa, as well as Roma. For example, the press reported that in Novosibirsk four policemen were arrested on suspicion of extorting over $1 million (28 million rubles) from a Romani family by kidnapping and torturing family members until their demands were met. In November 2003, one Roma was allegedly tortured for 7 hours. The victims did not press charges, but the policemen were eventually convicted on earlier charges of a similar nature. Police continued to harass defense lawyers, including through beatings and arrests, and continued to intimidate witnesses (see Section 1.e.).

As for businesses, there is plenty of information on the web, and like I've said over and over, you only have to look for it. I'm sure you have a lot of time - I don't. Please don't keep wasting my time. Use yours to educate yourself about things your little TV set won't tell you. Here are some samples that verify what EVERYONE who actually WORKS in or with businesses in Moscow knows. Also, it's increasing every year, so don't try feeding us some crap about how it really was from a long time ago. Take a look at the chart in the Economist article, or pay attention to this line in the Forbes and the Moscow times articles: "The average businessman pays out $135,800 in bribes every year, an amount that is 13 times higher than four years ago, the report said." By the way - these articles are just about official corruption, not even about the Mafia (maybe you want some statistics kept by the Mafia too?)! -- Simonides 06:32, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2002/05/22/001.html

http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2005/07/21/011.html

http://www.forbes.com/business/2005/08/05/russia-putin-corruption-cx_0805oxan-russia.html

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5061669

http://www.sptimes.ru/story/2571

http://english.mn.ru/english/issue.php?2005-31-18

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/news/nyt-8-14-05b.html

I posted the entire article Azov, so you wouldn't have the excuse of a broken link or not being able to find it. Yablokova ("from an apple" is the connotation if I'm not mistaken) is a cute name, don't you think? Maybe something we can agree on. -- Simonides 06:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Cute name, agreed :) Chill down a bit! I see your point. And I do read news, just like you do. Are you trying to prove that crime, bribery and corruption are serious and widespread problems? I'm not arguing with that.

I don't think you're in a position to ask me to "chill down". If I have to spend any time at all on WP, I would rather spend it editing than squabbling on Talk pages. Yet, inevitably, because of minor objections that people could easily take the initiative to modify themselves, I find my time wasted on the latter, in this case because of you - essentially I had to prove myself right once again by doing boring searches and posting long arguments to make you see what was never incorrect in the first place or what you failed to understand. If you're not arguing with my position then why go out of your way to create obstacles? Or make grand counter-statements like these: 'we shouldn't make blatant generalizations based purely on our guesswork.'? You should be much more careful how you go about making changes to articles. It's for your own sake - you can prevent foot in mouth disease too. -- Simonides 08:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

"They're relying on statistics provided by ... who? And what is the methodology involved for comparisons?" - there's a very detailed article addressing exactly those issues. Check it out! :)

Once again, you fail to understand my comment. I'm not asking you about Misplaced Pages policies. I'm asking you about the verifiability of the article YOU quoted - what were the methodologies and numbers it was based on? -- Simonides 08:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Independent movie theaters

As to the independent cinema theatres - I didn't reinsert the paragraph because I didn't really understand what you're referring to. What do you mean by independent cinema theaters - independent from whom? For example, in the US independent theaters are independent from large chains, e.g. Century. In this sense most of the movie theaters in Moscow are independent, AFAIK. Or did you mean the theaters that show independent films? Again, I'm not quite sure which films are considered independent, Musei Kino (Cinema Museum) is probably the most famous theater for showing non-mainstream movies. Basically, there's no questions about neutrality of that paragraph, but I think it needs more clarity.

PS. I removed the article text you copied here, a link is perfectly sufficient. Azov 08:40, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

If it requires clarity, clarify it, don't remove it. In using the term 'independent theatres' I meant both theatres that show independent or non-mainstream films, and ones that aren't owned, together with other theatres or other business ventures, by a single body. This is the only document I could dig up right now to show your speculations to the contrary are wrong; it's at least three years old, and things have certainly changed a lot now, but not in favour of the independent theatres.

In Moscow, one-screen movie theaters are being replaced by the American-style multiplexes, which are setting the trend for all over Russia. ... There are four privately owned Russian movie theater networks, including Imperia Kino, Karo Film, Kinomax and the Union of Independent Theaters. This year American National Amusement company started to actively work on the Russian market. National Amusement has ambitious plans to open several movie theaters in Moscow totaling 60 screens in the next four years. ... American-made films completely dominate Russian movie screens accounting for about 80-90%. Box office collections generated from showing U.S. movies double each year, starting from $10 million in 1999, increasing to over $20 million in 2000, and reaching $40 million in 2001. In the first six months of 2002, American movies have already made more than $40 million. -- Simonides 08:49, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

In fairness, the same situation applies to most of the world. The only countries that have lower precentage of movies from the US are those that have laws enforcing it, such as Korea, France and Venesuela. In Ireland, I'd say the precentage of US films shown is far above 90%, and the precentage of foriegn films is certainly 100% most years. The UK market is dominated by US film, miltiplex chains, with few independent films shown in small cimenas in town centers. There is a current example of the French documentary "La Marche de l'empereur" took a year to cross La Manche, and first had to take a detour to the US and pick up a voice-over by Morgan Freeman. In light of this, 80-90% in Russia is not bad. Remember, these films are not being imposed on the Russians. They like them. Seabhcán 09:13, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

That's all totally beside the point isn't it? I said that there were few independent theatres in Moscow, I didn't make any speculations on the character or tastes of Moscow audiences. It's important to bring this up because Moscow had, despite censorship and various extreme interferences from the government, a thriving cinematic culture in the Soviet era. -- Simonides 08:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

What is your point? Moscow still has a thriving cinematic culture, but now its Hollywood films that thrive there. Fashons come and go. In ten years Moscovites may have become bored by hollywood remakes and the cinemas might be showing all Russian films. Or maybe Bollywood or Nollywood will be the 'in' thing then. We get few non American films in the UK but "Night Watch" is currently drawing large crowds. How do you measure "thriving"? More people go to the cinema more often in Moscow now than in Soviet times. Just because you and I think the films they choose to watch are crap, doesn't mean there is anything not 'thriving' about Moscow cinemas.Seabhcán 10:14, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Once again, you don't understand. There was a thriving NATIVE cinematic culture previously - ie Soviets watching Soviet films. Also, a lot of popular films would be broadcast repeatedly on TV, so most movie or TV loving Russians brought up in the Soviet era know most of their national classics well, whereas the younger audiences know much more about Hollywood. This is not a judgement on fashions or what is better. The fact is that Russian studios that were very prolific, Russian content, and also non-mainstream content from overseas, have all been on the decline in the market, and that's all the article is saying. -- Simonides 10:25, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

There are still loads of Russian films on tv and in the cinemas. Irony of Fate is still shown every new years eve. There are Russian films on every night on TV. There are also French, German, US and other films. I don't see the harm. To increase the precentage of Russian films in the cinemas Russia could impose a law mandating a certain percentage. France, Korea and other countries has been sucessful with this. But personally, I don't think its needed. Like all industry in Russia, the movie industry is quickly building its self up following the economic disaster of the 90's. Seabhcán 10:48, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Good, great, excellent. No one is disputing what you say so I'm not sure why you continue on your tangent. The article says a few things - Mosfilm was the home of many classics, it implies that Soviet film was very popular (as opposed to being, say, unpopular propaganda), Russian filmmakers are still famous outside Russia, Mosfilm produces a lot less, independent cinema is relatively scarce in Moscow, all of which are true and none of which contradict anything you said. -- Simonides 11:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Your data is quite outdated. Russia in general and Mosfilm in particular produces more films than the whole Soviet Union in its best years. During the last year, the Russian boxoffice record was broken three times: first by Night Watch, then by a Fandorin movie, and now by the Ninth Detachment. No Hollywood movie has been able to achieve better results. And The Day Watch opens in theatres on January 1! --Ghirlandajo 13:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

I can't find any data supporting what you said about Mosfilm's production increasing between 2002 (when it was 5-6 times less than a decade previous to that) and 2005, so if you can link it for us, we can certainly correct the article accordingly. Also, some Russian films may be more profitable than American films, but I was speaking of trends, and the majority of the Russian market is still dominated by American or non-Russian films; between 70-90% of films screened at any time are American or non-Russian. -- Simonides 13:30, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Currently, there are 35 motion pictures being simultaneously produced in the Mosfilm. What is more improtant, most Russians have a habit of watching new films on TV, and 70-90% of TV series are Russian. --Ghirlandajo 13:55, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

We're not talking about TV series or TV watching habits at all. They did influence the number of visitors to the cinema over the years, but we're not mentioning the influential factors anywhere; we're just noting the trends. There may be X no. of motion pictures being made now, but what I want to know is whether 1) Mosfilm, as you claim, currently releases more films annually than it did around 1991, when the figure reached around 300; in 2002 it was only around 50-60; 2) the majority of films being screened in theatres in Moscow is Russian. The answer to the latter is pretty definitely no, you aren't showing me any evidence on the former point. Notice I only say "once prolific native studios are much quieter" in the article - I don't even mention Lenfilm or Mosfilm etc individually - so if you have any facts contrary to the statement, and pertinent, please bring them up. -- Simonides 14:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Are you claiming that state owned and run Mosfilm was 'independent'? Independent of what? Seabhcán 13:03, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Seabhcan - I am not sure what your agenda is, but can you stop to read before coming up with fanciful objections? Mosfilm was a government-supervised STUDIO so of course it wasn't independent. However, I was never speaking of the independence of studios, I wrote THEATRES. Between the fall of the Soviet Union and the present state of things, there were briefly more independent theatres than there are now, and no matter which way you argue it, on a PARALLEL note, Russians were watching more Russian content in theatres, than they are now. It doesn't matter how bad or good the latter was. In fact a lot of Russian cinema from just after the fall was really bad - done on low budgets and in imitation of American movies. But once again, no judgements on quality are being made here. So what exactly is your point? -- Simonides 13:12, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

So, you're saying that during soviet times there was a higher percentage of Russian films shown, which has declined steadily to today's percentage of 10%-20%. Seperately, during soviet times there were of course no independent theatres, but shortly after there were many, and this number has also been declining since to a present low number. Is this a correct summary of your statements? If so, I agree. Seabhcán 14:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes! If you think the passage in the article is not clear enough on the same points you're welcome to insert an alternative. I'll give it a tweak too. -- Simonides 14:57, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Wild fantasies

Who did full the article with wild fantasies?

For example:

Stalin did build seven other skyscrapers however, apparently inspired by 
the Municipal Building which Stalin saw on his visit to Manhattan.

Stalin NEVER been neither to Manhattan nor to the USA. Who did wrote this delirium?--Nixer 00:20, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

“Stalinist Architecture,” originated after Stalin visited New York, when he was so enamored with the Municipal Building he insisted on that wedding-cake style of architecture for Moscow University’s main building and its accompanying “Seven Sisters.” and "The Municipal Building in downtown New York impressed Josef Stalin so much that the Moscow University main building (1949-1953) and its accompanying "Seven Sisters" was later based on it" . The sources could be wrong, of course. -- Simonides 01:49, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

This is called original research, and it is inacceptable in Wiki. We have extensive articles on Stalinist architecture and Seven Sisters (Moscow), which cite Kremlin towers, Moscow baroque, and medieval Gothic cathedrals among possible inspirations for this particular extravagant form of scyscraper. Using a NYC website as an ultimate truth doesn't help: they are obviously biased. I don't know why you chose to delete the links to these articles and insert the third interpretation of the same subject. As an aside, I've never heard about Stalin's visit to New York, but this could be just my ignorance. --Ghirlandajo 09:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

No, it is not original research, as I saw it mentioned in a book once and wrote the whole section on Architecture from memory. I corrected stuff as I went along, so if you go through the edit history you will notice I mentioned the Novy Arbat project was designed by a French architect, who I am certain was mentioned in some book I read, but the only reference I could find was Mikhail Posokhin, so I switched the two; likewise I mistakenly called the Ostankino Tower the Shukhov Tower at first, and so on. There were no 'previous links' to those articles, as there was no previous section on architecture, so I am not sure what you are on about. There were always links to Moscow Tourist Attractions and no one removed them. What you did was delete the whole Architecture section and replace it with links that already appeared below. Maybe I should quote that part of Misplaced Pages that says such silly oversights are unacceptable. The links above were brought up only after I was asked for a reference, and I have never read elsewhere that Stalin visited NYC, so I could be wrong too. -- Simonides 12:29, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Stalin never been in the US. This is a mistake.--Nixer 20:35, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, it hasn't been in the article for almost a week, so you can relax. -- Simonides 08:15, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

The article is now citing the wrong building in NYC. Nixer edited the text (Jan 21 10:16) to say that Stalin was allegedly inspired by the Empire State Building, rather than the Municipal Building in New York. I see no basis for that revision. Various web pages do allege that the Municipal Building was an inspiration for the Seven Sisters. I know of no such claim about the Empire State Building. The reference should be changed back. -- David Cohen 14:24, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry. I never heared of Municipal building. I thought it is another name for Empire State Building. Stalin (or Kaganovich) said that Soviet skyscrapers will not be like American. American ones are very tall but have relatively small land basis because high land value. Soviet highrise buildings will not be limites by high land values so they should be more proportional, rational and estetic.--Nixer 18:41, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of anything *proving* the link, but here are a few web pages claiming it or speculating on it, which thus back up the limited statement that the Seven Sisters were *allegedly* modeled on New York's Municipal Building (arch. McKim, Mead & White 1914). This one assembles a few links (no more than circumstantial evidence), but in the comments someone replied that "It's definitely the Architecture of New York college class line that the Municipal (Building) was copied, with varying degrees of faithfulness, throughout the Eastern bloc." A New York architecture page asserts that Stalin based his skyscrapers on the Municipal Building. And this forum has a discussion accompanied by a slew of photographs connecting these and many more buildings with some common elements. I'll let you all decide whether that's enough to justify removing the "citation needed" tag. -- David Cohen 22:04, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Nice Help For Paper

Article really gave me info on culture. You might want to update the coat of arms, though. Thanks. :-)

NTV

NTV - the first privately-owned Russian TV station 

It is NOT privately owned. It is owned by Gazprom.--Nixer 06:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Not really Nixter. It is owned by media concern - Gazprom-media. 95% Gazprom-media shares owning by Gazprombank. Where 33,3% of Gazprombank owning by Dresdner Bank and 66,67% by Gazprom.Elk Salmon 01:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Population

I recently read somewhere (& damfino where, because it intrigued me) Moscow's pop couldn't actually exceed 750K because road/ry system can't support more than that, & #s are a fic... Has anybody else seen this? Confirm & include?! Trekphiler 08:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

what you mean? it's 10,5mln. or you talking about annual growth?

In 1960, the Soviet government claimed the population of Moscow was five million: Western estimates put it at 750,000, based on the infrastructure, etc. (there was no way enough food was being shipped in to feed five million). Robert A. Heinlein wrote about this in his account of his travel through the Soviet Union that year (1960). -- Abraxas 19:35 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Are you out of your mind? Moscow is the biggest and most populous capital in Europe? 750 000? ha!--Davydov 21:21, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

That is obsurd! 750,000??? Do we have kids here?

Moscow in Western Russia

Could the editor who keeps placing Moscow in central Russia please stop doing so? Moscow is geographically in western Russia. See James James 00:17, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Moscow located in central Russia geographically. Please stop editing it incorrectly. Russia's east geographically located to east of Volga river. East is Ural, Siberia and Far East, that was expanded to in XVIII centuries. West is several regions - Smolensk, Belarus etc. Elk Salmon 01:28, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

You are simply wrong. Belarus is not actually in Russia! I've sourced my change, so please stop reverting it. James James 01:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Check out this map. As you can see, Moscow is very much in western Russia. Please don't try to make a political point with a geographical fact. James James 01:41, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Stop it. Britannica is simply wrong. All other your sources are not really sources. East of Russia is on another side of Volga river. To west of it is geographical center. Smolensk, Belarus, Kaliningrad are West of Rus'. Geogrphical East was expanded in XVIII century. And it is full east. Elk Salmon 01:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Britannica is not wrong. It's a good source, of which you have presented none. It's plain for anyone to see that Moscow is in the west of Russia. You are pushing a political point, not making a geographical one. Please stop doing that. James James 01:52, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It's clear from your discussion why you want to say Moscow is "central". You talk about Rus and you place Belarus within Russia. Moscow may be central in historical and political terms, but geographically it is in the west of Russia, as is noted by the sources I gave. You provide no sources whatsoever for your view. Please do so. James James 01:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I am pushing original geographical point, not political. Calling center of Russia as west is political.Elk Salmon 01:56, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

If it will be more pleasantly for you i added "European" center. But don't call it western. It is terribly wrong. Elk Salmon 02:01, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It is clearly in Russia's west. I've asked for comments. Please produce sources to back up your point. I can't imagine you'll receive much support without them. Please see the article on Central Federal District, which makes it clear that the region also known as "Central Russia" (for political and historical reasons) is in the extreme west of Russia. It's ridiculous to suggest it's in the centre, when its western border is also the western border of Russia!James James 02:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Los Angeles is central USA, not western? Marseille is in northern France, not southern? European Denmark is only east of Denmark? etc. Moscow was started as center and stayed expanded its territories through the centuries. You can use European center. Politically geographical center is calling Krasnoyarsk. But existence of 'western Russia' on territory of Moscow is absolute nonsense. I first time hear about. Elk Salmon 02:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Erm. The US was started on the east coast. By your reasoning, Boston is in the centre of the United States. Moscow is clearly in the west of Russia. You are pushing a political point and ignoring the geographical fact that it could hardly be any more to the west.James James 02:22, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

US is starting on Alaska and Hawaii. France owns huge amount of islands in oceania etc. No, political point provides Western Russia on north. I'm not pushing it. Is the statement central European Russia enough for you? Elk Salmon 02:27, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

No. Moscow is in western Russia. It's not by any measure in central Russia geographically. It's not even in central European Russia! Krasnoyarsk is in central Russia. Sverdlovsk is in central Russia. Moscow is in the west. James James 02:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

What is no? Not for USA , for France, for Moscow location or that 'central European Russia' is not enough for you? Elk Salmon 02:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I wrote what the "no" was for. Moscow is in western Russia. Your stuff about France and the US is incomprehensible. Are you trying to claim that western Russia is Russia, and the rest somehow isn't? James James 03:40, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Re: RFC, Moscow is clearly in Western Russia, and indeed the capital was moved there by Peter the Great in order to develop a more Western capital and people.

MSTCrow 09:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

MSTCrow, Peter the Great was moved capital to St Petersburg, not to Moscow. Is Moscow not in central european Russia???? Using your standards it is clearly there. OK James. I say more understandable. Don't use West Russia statement, but use European Russia. West Russia is not using because sounds ridiculous for country which political, historical, cultural, ethnical center located there and which expanded their lands to east of Volga just 200 years ago. Is it understandable? West of Russia is wrong / European Russia is correct. Elk Salmon 12:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops.

MSTCrow 00:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Elk Salmon, Moscow is historically center of Russia, but geographically part of western Russia. Olorin28 17:10, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

No. European Russia. No western is exist. Use European instead. But European is considering center of Russian. Even by many in Russia as geographically. Elk Salmon 18:14, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't understand. You are expressing a political fact not a geographical one. But in common with most articles of this type, the reader is told where Moscow is. I will try a compromise. See whether you like it but write about it here on talk rather than reverting. James James 23:43, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

From a map, Moscow is clearly in the western part of Russia. This is not about the political division of Russia. This is about the geography of Russia. Olorin28 23:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I entirely agree, but I'm hoping to satisfy Elk Salmon's objection as simply as possible. James James 01:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

James stop vandalize in the article. I have said use European instead of western. Or Europe isn't geographical location now and not exist? I said - by many Russian calling western Russia for its center considering insulting. Stop it. Elk Salmon 01:23, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I fail to see how using "European" will express the location of Moscow. Central Europe? It is not even located in the central part of Europe. Olorin28 01:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Central part of European Russia. That what it mean. Not Central Europe. Why can't you use this one instead of abusive one? Elk Salmon 01:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

And European Russia is the western part of the country, so we are back to where we started... Olorin28 01:33, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you listen me? Western Russia is rather abusive for many Russians. Why you can't replace it by European??? Elk Salmon 01:38, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

This encylopedia is for everyone in the world, and just not for Russians. Also where is your proof of "abusiveness" of the term "Western Russia"? Usage of Western Russia correctly characterizes the location of Moscow in Russia. Olorin28 01:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You didn't answered for the question. Why can't you use European instead of Western? Why European appears incorrectly for you? And what proofs? You are Chinese, I am Russian living in Russia. This is my prove.Elk Salmon 01:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Elk Salmon, please review Misplaced Pages:Verifiability Olorin28 01:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You need a prove that what you call 'western' located in europe? I don't really got your point and you didn't answered for question. Elk Salmon 01:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You need to prove that Moscow is not considered to be geographically in western Russia. If it is abusive to say that it is, you need to find reputable sources that say it is, and we will be able to quote them saying so. James James 01:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No, your statement about the abusiveness of Western Russia is unverifiable. Olorin28 01:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Should I make site and post and article there, so is it will be source? I don't really want spend time for what you don't need. Because it is not the main point. Point is why can't you replace Western by European? Do you need source that will provide it you? Elk Salmon 02:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Here just to make more clear, Elk Salmon, can you make a list of reasons why Moscow are not geographically Western Russia? Olorin28 02:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I have another questionL Can you make list of reasons why it can't be called european? I said it's abusive. It's for people. I can't provide with source what people feel. But wikipedia has exclusions when articles closing down by requesting of poepl from a side without real proves from people. Remember one biographical scandal? Elk Salmon 02:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The reason why the term "Western Russia" will not generate a stir like the situation of Seigenthaler is because it is a fact. The Encylopedia Britannica uses it. However, that is not the point here. My request above remains. Olorin28 02:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

But he didn't proved that he is right. who knows may be he is really that who was drew in article. But you didn't answered why not European, which is also fact, instead of western?Elk Salmon 02:16, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

And Britannica isn't really good source. They make mistakes sometimes very big like in first edition in XVIII century. They claimed existence of huge country to the east of Volga - Tartaria. With three big states. In second edition it was removed. Elk Salmon 02:19, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Because using "Western Russia" is much clearer than saying "Central European Russian". Besides several other articles say that Moscow is geographically Western Russia, interestingly including European Russia and Central Russia. You attack the credibility of Britannica, but where are your sources? Olorin28 02:21, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Replace it by just European. Not Central European. For James European = Western. Anyway. Why it should be there? I checked articles about London and New York City. There is no any mentions about geographical location. We have to Central District article. It is enough. No need to tell same 3 times. first time in district known as central, second as western russia, third in table on left. Elk Salmon 02:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. You posted my source above European Russia. Here is Misplaced Pages define what is western. Britannica does not define it. Or they does? Elk Salmon 02:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

And your point is? Olorin28 02:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

My point is it says why western could be replaced by European. Elk Salmon 02:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The articles about London and New York City include a geography section, something Moscow doesn't have, and many ignorant people won't know what European Russia is. Olorin28 02:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Many ignorant people in Russia don't know where London and new York located as well;) But it's not point. OK. I'll try to make geography section later.Elk Salmon 02:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

"European" does not equal "western". Cornwall is not in European England, and Los Angeles is not in European United States. The word used in English for parts of countries that are in their west is "western".

How does it relates to Russia? European Russia. Misplaced Pages already define it. Elk Salmon 02:46, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

But why are we redirecting users to that page, when we can easily define Moscow as "Western Russia?" Olorin28 02:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Many ignorant people does not know where is your so called western Russia located as well. They better now Europe instead. Should they go this article to see where it is? It's absolutely same. Elk Salmon 02:52, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You would need to be truly ignorant not to know what "west" means. James James 03:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Please don't use this talk for personal attacks. west is west, but western russia is western russia. it is different. second should have real defining, which most of people does not know, but they know european define for russia. Good night. I hope to morning I will see European instead of western. This is more understable for people and more acceptable for Muscovites and Russians. Elk Salmon 06:05MSK, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No one has attacked anyone. You said many ignorant people would not know where "western Russia" is. I said they would have to be truly ignorant not to know that western Russia is the part of Russia that's in the west. Moscow is in the west of Russia, and that's what the article is going to say. It absolutely is not understandable for people to say Moscow is in central Europe when it is in fact in the west of Russia. James James 05:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Who talking about central Europe? It's in Eastern Europe. And you said You, not They Elk Salmon 11:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

You have not provided a single source that says that Moscow is not in western Russia, or that to say that it is in Russia's west is "abusive". Please do.James James 02:38, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

James, see above to see what we talking about. it doesn't mean if I says it's abusive. I am Russian and Muscovite and I am a source to you. It is 100% situation of Seigenthaler. But it is not a main point. See for main point above.Elk Salmon 02:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but you are not a source unless someone has published you.James James 03:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Didn't he just called senator? Should I do same? Elk Salmon 03:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not even comparable. I can verify that Moscow is in the west of Russia by looking at a map. I don't think I need fear legal action on that basis. But do ring your senator. Perhaps he'll provide you with a source for your claim. James James 05:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

James. Can you tell me - are you really does not understand what we are talking about? ok. I'll try again. There was source to you that says European Russia is its western regions. 'Western' is abusive for many Russians and sounds like Russians live not in their country, but somewhere on its outskirts. It is not in use in Russia. I was proposing to replace 'western' by 'European' because it is same and was stated in another other wikipedia article. It is now understandale? Elk Salmon 11:25, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Once again you have to provide sources again. Please review Misplaced Pages:Verifiability and Misplaced Pages:No_legal_threats. Olorin28 13:09, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Now this is not correct for you? The city is in the central federal district located in European Russia. it is central federal district. or don't? it is european russia. or don't?

I rephrased this sentence without word 'western'. But it is still correct.

Understand now? Elk Salmon 11:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

And isn't Western Russia correct? and clearer? Olorin28 13:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC) Uhh...Moscow is located in Western Russia geographically. There really should not be an arguement about it. - Harlequinjack

In asnwering the Request for Comments, and having read the above discussion, I would say that Moscow is the historical centre of Russia and the geographical centre of European Russia (i.e. that part west of the Ural Mountains. Paul James Cowie 11:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It seems too wordy to be factually correct by stating that Moscow is in "Central European" Russia. I would stick to Moscow being in the west geographically (a source would be any map of Russia) and in the central politically (whether you emphasize it being the captial city, or with a map showing population density, etc.) How you would word that in the entry is up to the editor. - Spartanfox86 23:59, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Outside responses to RfC

Hi, I'm responding to the RfC. My map shows Moscow in Western Russia. If there is a desire to mention its central role in affairs or even historically, that is fine. If its geography within Russia is to be discussed, it should say western. InvictaHOG 06:20, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I was here from the RfC too, and I completely agree with InvictaHOG. Geographically it should say Western Russia. Olorin28 13:11, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've also just come from the RfC. The current compromise seems good - perhaps, if we were being really pedantic, it could read 'in the west of the Russian Federation', to emphasise that this refers to the modern state, rather than any other concepts of Russia Robdurbar 13:37, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

ok. in the west of the Russian Federation sounds less abusive. i'll make article on geography and geology of moscow sometime later. so this string could be removed. but anyway. according to constitution of russia, paragraph 1 point 2 - Russia and Russian Federation names are equivalent. but, Olorin28, you still didn't answered question - why not European instead of western since it is same. First is more politcorrect.Elk Salmon 15:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Because this is not a political question? Olorin28 16:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It's same for you. There is source it is synonym for you. Why can' you use it? Elk Salmon 17:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

No, the term "Western Russia" has absolutely nothign to do with politics. However, the compromise by Robdurbar is good. Olorin28 18:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you understand me? I'm asking why do you again European Russia instead of western? Elk Salmon 20:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

European Russia is a political entity, something you should have learned from reading the above comments. Olorin28 20:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

European Russia is what located to west of Siberia for you known. I first time hear about political entity European Russia.... Elk Salmon 12:39, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

In Geography of Sweden, there is a line near the end of the "Lands of Sweden" section that says: "The town of Stockholm, which became the Swedish capital mostly because it was centrally located vis-a-vis to Finnish provinces, is geographically located in the east and south of Sweden, but in the Swedish mindset this is rather more perceived as middle Sweden." A clarification just like this regarding Moscow might be helpful? siafu 05:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course Moscow is in Western Russia. Now, Perm is Central Russia and the capital should be moved there :) These snobby Moscovites are completely out of their minds if they think they're in the centre of anything.  Grue  14:59, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

i will not answer for insults Elk Salmon 13:24, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Western Russia, no dout. But, yes, russians commonly put Moscow in Central Russia, for unclear reason. TestPilot 03:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Moscow is clearly in the western portion of Russia. However, the current compromise version is a good one. event 05:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Moscow is in Central Russia. It is located in the Central Russian Plain.--Nixer 11:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I used to live in central London. Does that mean I lived in the centre of the UK? James James 08:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe there is semantic confusion here. Geographically Moscow is clearly in the west of the country as it is now, you only need to look at a map to see that (), administratively I have no idea, but I would expect a Russian native to know better than me and if he says it's in the Central District then I'm sure it can be verified.nick 14:50, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to add my two cents. First: nuances of language. There's "west", and there's "West". Captial "W" and small "w"; they mean different things. "west" is entirely geographical; it's to your left if you're facing north, that's all. "West" is geopolitical, and roughly equates to the US and EU (I said roughly, don't flame me). As far as I can tell, Moscow is in western Russia and is in Central Russia. Get it? If you take a ruler and lay it out along the length of Russia, you'll find that Moscow is to the west of the physical centre of the country. Obvious. If you consider geopolitics and economics, then Moscow is in Central Russia; always has been.

And everybody knows that Moscow is NOT in Western Russia and in central Russia, right?  ;-) -Sckchui 10:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Muscovite and I don't find the term "Western Russia" abusive, it's just uncommon. You wouldn't call Alaska "North-Western USA", wouldn't you (though it's obviously located in the very north-west)? However I'm not sure what name is of common use in English-speaking countries. In Russia we usually use "European Russia" or "European part of Russia" for designating this part of the country. The region was actually central before Russia began to expand eastwards in the 16-17 centuries. At the moment it is obviously located in the west of Russia though, but the term "central" still remains, mostly because of economic and political roule of Moscow.--Shakura 20:43, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean:

• Central economically?
• Central politically?
• Central cultrally?
• Central geographically by land?
• Central geographically by population numbers?

? --Victim of signature fascism | help remove electoral corruption 12:55, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I came because of the RFC. I hope people will stop talking about where Moscow is located geographically, as it's rather silly. Just find different semantics.

I just superimposed a map of Russia on the United States. Although admitted I did a very sloppy job, Moscow appears to correspond to a position roughly in northern California. Also, Moscow is actually fairly far west in terms of population.

Anyway, an initial geographic description of Moscow must state that it is in the west of Russia. In other critical aspects, however, it would represent the antithesis of Western "European" Russia, or at least the middle ground between Russian cultural purists and Russian modernists for the past 300-400 years. #Masonbarge 00:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Masonbarge. It must be stated that Moscow is located in the west of Russia without using the confusing term "Western Russia" because of its ambiguity.--Shakura 11:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Mystery Airport

Does anyone know the name and use of this airport http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Moscow&ll=55.787192,37.532644&spn=0.01303,0.066605&t=k

The stadium in the upper right is Dinamo stadium and the airport is, oddly enough, very near the Aeroport metro stop on Leningradsky Prospekt. I stayed 2 weeks in a hotel maybe 2 blocks from this place and had no idea it was there...209.47.162.98 20:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

This is not mystery airport. It is Khodynka filed. Airport was closed in 60's during Moscow expanding. From 60's to 90's was used as racing circuit. Currently this area is under development. Several residential complexes now almost completed. Center of this area supposedly will be using by park and north part by several stadiums and huge museum as i remember. Elk Salmon 21:14, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Elk! I wish I'd known about the place when I was in Moscow, the museum looks like an interesting tour (although some sites say it's now closed).209.47.162.98 19:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Added a page for Khodynka airfield. 209.47.162.98 21:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

There is also a hidden motro station under the airfield. I could be open if become necessary. See here: ru:Волоколамская (станция метро, Таганско-Краснопресненская линия).--Nixer 17:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way I think there is already a page on Tushino airfield(present name).--Nixer 17:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

These are two different fields. --Gene s 18:50, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

The link to a Google map above shows Tushino airfield definitely. There a number of military airplanes are visible also.--Nixer 06:46, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages article for Tushino links a google map of a very different place (river on one side). I did many google searches for "Khodynka" and came across no references to Khodynka and Tushino being the same place.Burtonpe 19:38, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Field on google maps is Khodynka. Afaik there is some kind of meuseum of aeronautics or something like that. They plans to build huge building. Tushino still working for helicopters and small jets. Elk Salmon 14:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Please do not revert

Ghirlandajo, please do not revert. What do not you agree?--Nixer 15:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As it's you who introduce controversial edits, it's for you to explain why you consider "Beliy" a better transliteration than "Bely" and why you insist that "Caucasians" are accosted thrice a day. I believe the latter passage reeks of original research and should be removed. As to the former, check the transliteration rules. Finally, I don't think the article is the proper place for spamlinks to all the websites of Russian media. Take care, --Ghirla | talk 17:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Moscow metro coveres the largest territory?

I storngly doubt this, in many cities (e.g. Paris or Chicago) the metro system goes far into the suburbs, while in Moscow it does not go beyong MKAD. Can you check and provide citation? abakharev 05:27, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Bulvar Dmitriya Donskogo and the whole Butovskaya Light Metro Line does go beyond MKAD, although Butovo is formally inside the city of Moscow. However the extension to Mitino will pass territory belonging to the Moscow Oblast -Kuban kazak 13:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, most lines have their terminus stations located too near the MKAD, therefore, it is clear that the Moscow's metro system covers the largest territory, at least, that of Moscow's

I don't see how it proves that Moscow's metro "covers more territory than any other metro system". For example, I'm pretty sure New York subway is larger in terms of area covered, whatever we mean by that. Azov 01:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think author meant that Moscow's metro "covers more territory than any other metro system" but it is the type of public transport that covers the largest territory in the Russian capital, compared to the territory covered by the whole bus and tram networks.

Well, that was the actual statement in question. Removed it from the article. Azov 18:52, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The writer was, however, right. http://vrm.vrway.com/issue15/MOSCOW_METRO_STATIONS_-_UNDERGROUND_PALACE_PANORAMAS.html --Davydov 21:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

"Moscow Metro is the world’s largest subway system in terms of passenger rides", has nothing to do with territory. Azov 22:28, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Sports

Does anybody have a good image of Grand Sport Arena in Luzhniki to incert in the sports section?--Nixer 10:55, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Crime

However, while the overall stability has improved in the recent years, crime and corruption continue to remain a problem hindering business development. A recent study showed that far from decreasing, corruption in the Putin era has been on the rise, and large businesses can expect to pay an average of over a hundred thousand dollars a year in bribes to officials. The Mafia also runs extortion rackets in most parts of the city, though there are no reliable data to understand how large their influence is. Who wrote it never been to Moscow and was never doing business here. Mafia is just fake stereotype about every single criminal. Corruption (if official reject to do something he should without private payment) in Moscow in last 5 years decreased significantly and almost gone to 0. Of course somebody who has frindly relations to some official could pass something he need using 'additional possibilities'. But this is from another opera. Mafia's rackets was popular in begin of 90's. Gone in mid 90's. Somebody above was talking about often racist crime in Moscow as very common. It's not true as well. Just several cases in year, unlike in Saint Petersburg and Voronezh. Elk Salmon 16:15, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Moscow agglomeration

Some people arguing on megalomania. Then why not to talk on what is real and what is megalomania. First of all - i will not refer to UN as a source because they have city proper population of moscow in list of metropolitan areas. First of all here is two sites that specialising on agglomeration population - citypopulation.de (define 13,75mln population for moscow agglomeration ) and world gazetteer (define 14,5mln population for moscow agglomeration ). Another, Russian source, is a book Social-Economical regionalisation of Russia (links on site correctly works in IE). This book define 12,1mln figure for 1998. Most of settlements changed insignificantly, with total sum of changes not over 100 thous, unlike Moscow. Census of 2002 showed estimated population was wrong on 2mln and was 10,38mln in 2002, comparing to 8,3mln of official estimation before census. So roughly according to book - Moscow agglomeration is near 14,1-14,2mln in 2002. Elk Salmon 16:39, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

metro area

What is the population of Greater Moscow, the whole metropolitan area? It should be mentioned in the article!--Sonjaaa 06:35, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I think there is no such thing as "greater Moscow". The boundaries of the city are clear and it is surrounded with rural areas and several smaller (but independent) cities and towns.--Nixer 06:47, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of which, would you be willing to finally get rid of the Greater Moscow "article"?—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 12:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Greater Moscow is not exist of course. It is just an agglomeration. I was talking about it in previous paragraph. Elk Salmon 14:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

btw, here is what Greater Moscow . Just old (1921) plan of expanding. Elk Salmon 15:06, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you would then be interested in deleting/re-writing that pity of a stub? And thanks for the link—it's very educational and can probably be used as a basis for a new Greater Moscow article.—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 15:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Just made new article. Elk Salmon 12:09, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Dining Costs

$70 for an average plate? $50 per person for Moomoo? No way. Moo moo is a $10 meal, no? Most franchises have close-to American prices.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dunadan11 (talk • contribs) .

If you ask me, this information belongs in a tour guide book, not in an encyclopedia. Prices change every day, who cares?—Ëzhiki (ërinacëus amurënsis) • (yo?); 12:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Seal

It is not a seal but coat of arms.--Nixer 13:56, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Industry

Should we have a chapter about industry?--Nixer 06:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Perhaps we could also merge some of the information from the Living Costs section to form an Economy section. joturner 06:59, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Removal of {{fact}}s

The point of the {{fact}} tag is to get citations. This article, as it is right now, is for the most part well-written, but also poorly cited. And so by adding {{fact}} templates to the article, we would be getting others to notice this flaw in the article and perhaps replace the tags with citations. Removing them just because there are many does not seem like a good reason. I'm going re-add some of the tags back. joturner 14:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, we should really shy away from sources in Russian. I noticed that someone had an edit summary that removed a {{fact}} template saying because information about the number of cars within the city was available at this website. However it, of course, is in Russian. As the English Misplaced Pages, we should strive to find sources in English. And as a side note, that website should have been cited (I added the citation, although I hope we can find an English source with the same information). joturner 15:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Joturner, Moscow located in Russia. And official language in Russia is Russian. Not English. Therefore you will not find any reliable source in English. Mos.ru is official site of Moscow Administration. All you can do is ask Russians in Russia Portal for help with a sources. Elk Salmon 15:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

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