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It's time to make a stand against the arrogant and incompetent Wikimedia Foundation and its complete disregard for those of us who actually build this encyclopedia. Their salaries are paid on the back of our unpaid work, therefore in line with some others I've decided to withdraw my labour every Monday until things change. And if they don't, I'll be extending the length of my strike. I encourage everyone to join me.

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Molon labe!

The Fifth Element FAC

Hi Eric. I addressed your concerns at Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/The Fifth Element/archive1. Thanks for your comments. Don't feel obligated but I thought there would be no harm in asking if you could have a look at anything else that may need improving in order for you to support this nomination. I'm happy to exchange reviews quid pro quo; i'll review something of yours in exchange for you reviewing this nomination if you like, just let me know (i'm assuming that is allowed, this is my first FAC nomination so wasn't too sure what to expect). Anyway if you're not interested or too busy no worries, have a nice day. Freikorp (talk) 10:31, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I doubt I'll be nominating anything else at FAC for a while, so don't worry about that. I'll have a read through your article later. Eric Corbett 11:25, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to bother you again, i'm just getting a little anxious about this nomination as whilst one person is supporting it, nobody has commented on it for 3 weeks now. Being my first nomination i'm not altogether sure how many people have to support if before it is approved. If you've got the time i'd appreciate it if you could follow up your comments and either support the nomination or tell me what else you'd like improved. I promise I won't pester you about it a third time, just thought one reminder wouldn't hurt :). If you're too busy I won't hold it against you. Freikorp (talk) 07:31, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Generally you need a minimum of three supports before an article is promoted. I think the article still needs some work though, so I've left a few more comments for you at the review. Eric Corbett 12:59, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

GAN?

Eric, following my recent "success", I thought I would have another go. What do you think of this? Is it worth a go at GAN? If so would you be willing to apply your usual skills at ce, etc. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 10:42, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks good, I like that, well worth a shot at GAN. I might not have the the time for a proper read through until tomorrow though. Eric Corbett 13:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Eric. No rush; I would prefer to wait until you have had time for a proper look. Cheers. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I think this is good to go for GAN now. There are probably prose issues that a full review would sort out, but I can't think of any reason this would quick-fail at a GA review. Since the backlog can be measured in months these days, you might as well put it up now. You can use that delay to your advantage, by coming back the article a week later with a fresh pair of eyes and finding things to fix - all before any reviewer has touched it. As I hinted above, I've been looking at Barton Road Swing Bridge which was apparently the Dartford Crossing of its day, being part of a de facto Manchester bypass in the 1950s and a horrendous bottleneck. Ritchie333 09:19, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Ritchie, but I should prefer Eric to have a look, when he gets the time, before I make a nomination. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 08:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Dunnit! Thanks again, Eric, for everything. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 20:46, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

That was quick! Eric Corbett 20:58, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Richie was watching! --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 21:48, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

If you have time..

I've added some new stuff to both Stigand and Ælfheah of Canterbury ... finally got around to integrating a new article that came out in 2012. If you could check my usual wordiness, etc it'd be great! Ealdgyth - Talk 23:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! If you have an opinion on the edits that I'm disputing on the talk page, it'd be great. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Which talk page? Stigand's? Eric Corbett 14:30, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Yep. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:45, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Notice of Edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Misplaced Pages's policy on edit warring. Thank you.

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

old diff

I'm not sure this helps you on general civility, but it does show that you seem to use this as a general purpose insult (or better, response to the idea of NPA) and not in any sort of gender targeted way. Although I think you were (and sometimes are) unnecessarily rude, I was not honestly offended and I certainly did WP:POKE you somewhat later (for which I apologized, and you did not accept, alas.)

More importantly in the current context I think the risk of equating offended with civil is likely to lead to fereinheit 451 style censorship especially with such issues as pictures of Mohammad etc which are deeply offensive to some. ("Don't step on the toes of the dog lovers, the cat lovers, doctors, lawyers, merchant, chiefs, Mormons, Baptists, Unitarians, second-generation Chinese, Swedes, Italians, Germans, Texans, Brooklynites, Irishmen, people from Oregon or Mexico The bigger your market, Montag, the less you handle controversy ")Gaijin42 (talk) 21:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I make it a point never to accept apologies, so nothing personal. Eric Corbett 21:40, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, good, if you don't accept apologies.... I apologize for using too many commas. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I gave up with you and commas long ago Ealdgyth. I just quietly remove them now. Eric Corbett 22:12, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Eric, have you called anybody a cunt recently? --John (talk) 21:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  I haven't, neither here nor in real life, but I reserve the right to do if I should consider it appropriate. Eric Corbett 21:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  I thought so. So this recent campaign is basically a bunch of your old enemies trying to have you blocked for your supposed misdeeds from the past? What sad wankers they must be, and how jealous. --John (talk) 22:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  If you've looked at any of the myriad threads you'll see quite a few names you might recognise, I certainly do. This all started because of a question posed by @Lightbreather: about setting up a new civility board, which I poo-pooed in a manner and using language she took exception to. Now the spin is that I called her a cunt, which is absolutely untrue. Eric Corbett 22:11, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  Well...you know wikipedia. The fantasy land where truth<verifiability. So if they repeat the false accusation often enough it becomes verifiable, and thus true in their twisted little world. It even prodded Wong from his enchanted slumbers... Intothatdarkness 22:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  Scottywong has publicly stated that his mission is to see me booted from WP, so no surprise to see him trying to stick the boot in. Eric Corbett 22:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  What, no ping? Are you talking about me behind my back? Just kidding. Anyway, I've changed my mind about you. I don't want to see you booted from WP. I do, however, want to see you behave in a socially acceptable way that is conducive to a collaborative social environment. This would allow you to do more of the great work you do here, with less interruptions. I'm not talking only about civility, but about having a general respect for the social construct (i.e., the rules relating to interactions with other editors) of Misplaced Pages. I'm fully aware that you almost certainly couldn't give a rat's ass about what I think about you, but I thought I'd let you know anyway. Also, I believe I asked you to not post on my talk page in the past. If you'd like to do so in the future, I'm ok with that. Cheers. ‑Scottywong| communicate _ 01:39, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  I think you've just nailed the very important difference here - you seem to see this site as a "social enviroment" with a "social construct" first and only secondarily as an encyclopedia. Some of the rest of us ... see it as an encyclopedia first ... and the social aspects of it as secondary. So, of course, interactions are going to be more important if you see it mainly as a social thing than if you see it as an encyclopedia. Silly me, I think the actual content is the important part. I also understand that not everyone has the same expectations of things and am willing to tolerate a lot ... especially from folks from other cultures. I've been around enough English to know that their usage of words is totally off from Americans ... and that's a good thing. If we were all alike, boy things would be boring. Stop trying to change everyone to fit your own culture and just get on with the work of building an encyclopedia. (There, my preaching is done for the morning). Ealdgyth - Talk 11:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  I agree with you that WP is primarily an encyclopedia, not a chat room. However, it is an encyclopedia being simultaneously written by thousands of people. Therefore, managing the social interactions of those people is important. This is not unusual. The primary purpose of the company you work for (assuming you work for a company) is probably not to be a social construct for its employees, yet if there is a social problem (employees not getting along, employees not acting collegially with one another), then that company will take steps to deal with the situation, so that it can go on with its primary purpose in an efficient way. Imagine if everyone writing the encyclopedia were allowed to be as rude and crass as they like. Eventually, the only people left writing the encyclopedia would be the few people who can tolerate constant hostility and turmoil. I don't believe that asking people to be polite and collegial is pushing my culture on other people. Being civil is part of existing within a civilized society. ‑Scottywong| speak _ 14:04, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  (ec) Right. Another example: one arbitrator spoke plain simple English about an accusation: no foul. play on. He isn't an arb any more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  You pinged. Do you want me to respond to something, or did you just want me to see what you said? If you have a question for me, I will answer it, though I've made several detailed replies elsewhere. Lightbreather (talk) 22:15, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  I simply didn't want you to think I was talking about you behind your back. Eric Corbett 22:19, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  I see the easily offended are out in force yet again but of course it's much easier to be easily offended than write an article. John is right, jealousy is at the bottom of it all. Why do the easily offended idiots stalk you? I think most of them lack basic comprehension skills, they read what they want to read, not what is actually written. And as for feminism, don't get me started. J3Mrs (talk) 22:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  It was my accusation of militant feminism that probably prompted one or two of the AN/ANI reports. But I stand by everything I said. Females don't gain equal rights by trying to grab more rights than men. That's not equality. Eric Corbett 22:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  Oh the Freudianisms of it all: Poor old BHG - who would not love to have a "moist" employer? Now, interestingly "moist" is a word I never use because it sound naff and twee - anybody else think that - or is it just me? Giano (talk) 22:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  Moist isn't a word I'd often be inclined to use myself, for the reasons you say. You do sometimes come across it in cleaning instructions that refer to a "moist cloth", but I'd always say a "damp cloth". Eric Corbett 22:34, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

  • You read cleaning instructions? That is impressive J3Mrs (talk) 08:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

  Boy, the feminists really are pissed off! Cassianto 22:45, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Let's lay off the feminist-bashing, it isn't helping. The "easily offended" come in all sizes, shapes, genders and so on (usually it's men dragging Eric to the drama boards, anyway). I consider myself a feminist and I am not among the "easily offended, " though I will jump on people who don't "get it" about bonafide sexism and bias. I usually get along fine with the illustrious Mr. Corbett, whose primary fault is impatience and a sharp tongue that occasionally slices and dices noncombatants, which, Eric, I think you DID do to Lightbreather. But this crime needs the occasional WP:TROUT. That said, it would be useful if you would quit saying "cunt" no matter how it's used in the UK. Heavens knows you have an adequate vocabulary to be more creative and entertaining if you must dish out insults. We'd all be blocked in an instant for calling someone an asshole, so let's just not describe people by their orifices, period. Not piehole, not asshole, not cunt, none of it. Montanabw 05:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't "get" feminism, never have, never will. I don't like being told what I should think or do and am appalled by the idea of positive discrimination so jump on me, not that it makes any difference. As Eric didn't call anybody anything, I don't know why you appear to be implying he did. J3Mrs (talk) 08:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You apparently have never been told that not getting a job you were qualified for was a good thing because it meant you could stay home with your children? I have. Apparently you also have not been passed over for a job in favor of a decades younger male applicant with less than one year of experience? I have. And I can guarantee you that you haven't been in a job interview where the question "can you coach our football team?" was asked for a job teaching history in a high school). I have. (Should have answered "yes" to that one just to see what they'd do.) So, to use the tone that Corbett likes to use, do pull your head out of the sand. Montanabw 16:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Montanabw, don't make assumptions, you have no idea what I have and haven't been through job-wise. And for the record I ran an under 10 rugby league team with my female colleague. I fight my corner on my own merits, not as a feminist. J3Mrs (talk) 17:07, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, J3Mrs if you aren't a feminist, then you are standing on the shoulders of the giants who earned rights that you take for granted and not acknowledging what they did for you.: do read this if you think we don't need feminism. 06:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

But I never said I wasn't a humanitarian and who knows, 100 years ago I might even have been a suffragette, but I'm not a feminist in the way its used on here, I believe in equal rights for everybody not positive discrimination for women, end of conversation. J3Mrs (talk) 07:50, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Montanabw, I wasn't aware I was bashing them? It was meant as an illustration for what has (or hasn't in this case) gone on over the last couple of days; but thanks anyway for showing what it's like to have a complete sense of humour bypass. Cassianto 12:32, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You intended humor and probably meant no harm, but a joke made as the expense of others is implicit bullying that group and not funny except to those who intend to bully. You can rib Corbett for creating his usual tempest in a teapot without being that way. I'm personally only mildly annoyed, but if I had a daughter in that photo, I'd probably be seriously pissed. Simply using a stereotypical phrase like "the feminists" to caption a photo of ordinary young women in an ordinary campus protest was the equivalent of using any other stereotype. Montanabw 16:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

wtf!? Frankly, I couldn't care less if you were pissed at me for causing you offence at a photo where your daughter was. That kind of coincidence is even too great to imagine, and I would like to think that you would realise that. Having said that, I apologise for being offensive to at least one of your relatives in that photo. Cassianto 00:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't do anything to Lightbreather, and I don't appreciate you and she continuing to propagate the lie that I did Montanabw. I'll maybe start to take your position a little more seriously when I see you campaigning for either the removal of WP:DICK or the addition of WP:CUNT. Eric Corbett 12:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I could. Where do I sign up? Seriously, Eric, would YOU support the removal of WP:DICK? If you did, I'd back you 100%. Let's do it. (I'd also buy lots of popcorn because it would be a great show!) Interesting that men do refer to one another by both words in various nations all in good humor, while women are criticized for using the first in any context (full disclosure: I have and I was) and we rarely use the second in humor, even to joke with each other. But though I dispute the "equally offensive" comment as a false equivalency, I'd be OK losing both. I've never seen the invocation of WP:DICK help de-escalate any situation. Montanabw 16:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd certainly support the removal of WP:DICK. And it's not always used in good humor, incidentally. I've seen a fair number of fights start because one guy called another guy a dick. Intothatdarkness 17:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree. I find it fascinating that one word will get so many people upset while another word (which can be equally offensive) is enshrined in an essay and tossed around as policy. Utter horseshit. Intothatdarkness 14:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Eric, spot the occurrence of "Between you and I" in your last contribution. :) Also, J3Mrs, I'm a card-carrying feminist: if you really don't get it, I'll gladly beat you up with my bumper sticker. Also, I wish Eric hadn't used the c-word--not cause it's necessarily so wrong or whatever (and I agree it wasn't aimed at anyone), but because its use is simply highly controversial and little good comes of it. Some people take righteous offense at its use, some take unwarranted offense at its use. Some don't care. I'm a liberal and I think it's important that we get along. I learned only later what "calling a spade a spade" really means, having learned the expression from a white (Yankee) student (a great fan of My Fair Lady, incidentally), and while I like the idea of shooting straight, there is no benefit in using such a loaded expression. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to write an essay on why DICK is indeed the Ultimate Signifier. Eric, please accept my apologies for lecturing. Drmies (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Drmies What did you learn the "spade" phrase to mean? I know a great number who think it has racist background (similar to Eeny, meeny, miny, moe) but at least our own article on the topic shows otherwise? Gaijin42 (talk) 16:27, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the alternate version – calling a spade a fucking shovel – makes it very evident that there's no racist overtones. But no doubt that won't satisfy Jimbo's civility warriors. The list of forbidden words here is growing quite rapidly. Eric Corbett 16:40, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

While it may have started as a shovel (or a fig, or whatever) it is now, at least in the US, the only place I'm likely to ever use the expression, quite widely considered to have racial/racist overtones. That's a good enough reason for me not to use it. Drmies (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

But it's not a good enough reason for me. Why not let's cut to the chase and mandate the use of WP's version of Newspeak? Eric Corbett 16:57, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I would never suggest some mandated form of language. Unfortunately, though, we all reap what we sow, and since you're typically under a microscope, this was to be expected, and there isn't a damn thing I can do about any of it, since I prefer it when people speak softly, stick or not, and I see everyone lose their patience, on all sides. (You know I'm a great fan of singular they, but do not wish to mandate it.) So I'm taking the coward's way out, or to put it in BrownHairedGirl's terms, I stick my head in the sand. Here I am practically lecturing you, and I really have no standing from which to criticize you, while at the same time I'm apparently part of a corrupt admin corps that is essentially sexist, or something like that--I'm being accused, with a bunch of other enablers, of the most repulsive -ism I can think of (and Sitush, "feminism" is not a bad word...). There is no enjoyment in that for me. So I'm going to log off, pay Dirk's five dollars, and enjoy their beer tasting. Happy days to everyone, Drmies (talk) 22:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Let me give you just one example from last night. That kind of thing is rampant and unchecked all over the project, yet I get ten days in the slammer for basically nothing. No wonder the credibility of the admin corps is at an all-time low. Eric Corbett 22:40, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Then it's high time it wasn't considered "highly controversial". It's just another word after all, and words can only have the power you give them. I'm rather fed up with all the middle-American prudishness around here, and I will kick against whenever I feel like it. I'm reminded about some objections to the use of the word slut in a quoted translation in an article I worked on recently. Fucking ridiculous. Eric Corbett 16:36, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

My mother used sluttish and slatternly interchangeably. It's a shame perfectly good words take on these politically correct overtones. J3Mrs (talk) 17:17, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

“ ‘Bad words’ ? Bad thoughts, bad intentions maybe—and words.” (George Carlin, in the Seven Words sketch)—Odysseus1479 03:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

You might be interested in this album, which is titled from Acts 26:14 but somehow I doubt has anything to do with planting seeds and encouraging horses. And that mention of horses reminds me, has anyone heard from the lady in the New Forest recently? She was having some off-wiki problems but used to appear here regularly. Another example of your complete indifference to the gender of contributors, of course. - Sitush (talk) 16:47, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I think Pesky's health issues (spinal/nerve stuff) combined with her losses (toddler grandson to cancer) (note. she mentioned both on her talk) have minimized her online time; we're facebook friends, and I seldom see her post there, either. BTW, she was great for deescalating everyone. A true loss to "teh wiki". Montanabw 16:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Seriously, Eric, I will clarify - I agree that when you first used the "c-word" in the context of Lightbreather's edits, your context was clearly NOT intended to be directed at her personally or as a woman (heck, I didn't even realize she was at first, either), but it was akin to saying to someone, "don't be an asshole". Then escalating it with "you and your prissy militant feminist friends" WAS mean-spirited, inflammatory and you do know this, I think. Your edit summary comment about brains that got the unwarranted block was rightly reversed, but you DID deserve a WP:TROUT. Those of us who value your editing skills do often sigh and wish in our deepest hearts that you could resist falling on your own sword with these self-inflicted injuries all the time; I agree there are bullies who lay (lie?) in wait for you, but you help them out so often. Now, be pissed at me if you want, I know you'll get over it in a few weeks. And say hi to the kitten for me (I guess she's now a cat); I know your gruff curmudgeon persona is not your core nature. Montanabw 16:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Nonce (slang). approximately synonymous with "idiot", eh? "Oh do shut up, you're being a real nonce!". Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Sign of a fundamental problem?

JSTOR have very kindly offered 500 free accounts to WP editors, and I'm looking forward to mine being activated this week hopefully. Anyone who's used JSTOR knows how incredibly useful it can be in providing access to journal articles in particular, which I've had to pay for in the past and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Yet rather than being swamped with applications the take up has been surprisingly slow, which I interpret as a sign of the diminishing number of active editors who actually write content as opposed to pursuing their vendettas across multiple forums. Eric Corbett 22:52, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

There are already 377+6 approved accounts, including many names we all recognise. I suppose rather more than that have access already through universities etc. Something like 1000 regular content editors have access - seems about right. Not all en:wp of course. Then there are the medical/scientific offers, newspapers etc. Johnbod (talk) 23:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I get JSTOR through university, plus some other stuff as well. Just waiting for the BNA to be activated and am salivating at that..but yeah I do worry about numbers of content editors too. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:59, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm still here, it's just that right now, I only have time for basic reversions. I still have a half-finished article on Baby farming to complete. Parrot of Doom 23:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, hopefully Eric doesn't mind this space being used for adverts, but: there are a number of other database accounts being offered for free through The Misplaced Pages Library. I know OUP and BMJ are into waiting lists now, but HighBeam and Credo and Cochrane all have spots left, and probably a few more too. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I must get a Cochrane...don't think uni covers that......Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: anyone resident in the UK can get the OUP stuff for free via Manchester Libraries' online system. They don't have to be in Manchester. I've had WP JSTOR access for a year now - although I can get that through Cambridge Uni alumni, theirs is a cut-down version and it is cut down just where I seem to need it most! BNA is very useful but also incredibly distracting: I end up reading entire pages of newspapers from 100 years ago, and they're free of chip fat. - Sitush (talk) 16:28, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

@Sitush: Yes, OUP stuff (including OED, ODNB, Grove, etc) is available not just from Manchester but most or all UK public library systems: just find your local library service home page and look for something like "Online library", and get ready to enter your library ticket number and PIN. Brilliant service which a lot of folk don't know about - but Nikkimaria does, see Misplaced Pages:OUP where one of the requirements is to not have access through public library etc. Most libraries also offer The Times archive 1785-1985 and BL 19th-century newspapers. PamD 18:23, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

All public libraries in Kent allow access to the Times archive, and as Pam suggests I suspect this is nationwide. Online access is generally getting better, the London Gazette archives are online, and so is the Parliamentry Hansard (great for who said what where and when). I had a BL reader's ticket but it's expired and the 90 minute lead time for getting documents is just something I don't have time for these days. Ritchie333 11:41, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

In these times of "austerity" my county library service has this year drastically reduced the archive services we previously enjoyed access to. Of those that remain, the better has been made accessible "in library" only. I did complain to the Stock Manager - who was responsible for the decision to cut the services - who informed me that price rises in the region of several thousand pounds combined with "relatively low use" and "considerable pressure to reduce costs" led to the withdrawal. Apparently I live in a dumb county that is only going to get dumber. Keri (talk) 12:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I just registered membership at Manchester's City library, however, to restore access to the Graun archives. Thanks for the tip, Sitush! Keri (talk) 12:10, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

"Relatively low use" they said, did they? Well, tell all your friends and neighbours about the services available and encourage them to use them. So many people don't know about the availability of these brilliant resources (including Jimbo as shown in some stuff on his talkpage a few months back). PamD 12:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Nuckelavee

The article Nuckelavee you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Nuckelavee for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Casliber -- Casliber (talk) 00:22, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Congratulations Eric on another great article, very well deserved. I simply don't have the patience for GAN these days. J3Mrs (talk) 14:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I can understand that. For me it's just about drawing a line under something; in a sense it's finished, or at least it's good enough for now and can be parked for a while. As for the nuckelavee, Sagaciousphil really deserves all the credit. She's the one who does all the heavy lifting, I just come along at the end and steal a bit of her thunder, misogynist that I am. Eric Corbett 14:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Curious...

Will someone provide to me the context of how relatively offensive the phrase "bloody wanker" is in the UK? Equivalent to the USA "assohole?" More? Less? More offensive or less offensive that "twat" and "cunt?" Also, in the same vein, is it fighting words to tell someone from Wales that he "Welshed out on the deal?" Or telling someone that they're a cheapskate by calling them "Scotch?" How about the American slang for calling a police van a "'Paddy' wagon?" Serious and sincere cultural inquiry in light of the above conversation? And have I committed a sanctionable offense by using any of the above words in this context? Montanabw 16:58, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

US interpretation from lots of UK friends : Bloody used to be very vulgar (fucking) but just like fuck has become common to hear. Many people use the word "Welch" on a bet but not as many know that it means Welsh, but I would certainly not be surprised to hear a Welshmen get into a fight over it. Similar to Indian giver or better yet Gyp or Jew down (which I can't believe has survived as a redirect in this context!) I would think. Paddy wagon is not generally offensive, as its just as likely Paddy was driving the wagon (Long tradition of Irish policemen) (but it does sound very archaic)Gaijin42 (talk) 17:09, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Tosspot Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 17:45, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I'm a Brit with English, Irish, Scots, Welsh and Cornish ancestry - and I'd say the offensiveness of those words is impossible to ascertain without the context. Whereas I believe that some individual words are proscribed in the USA and are dictated to be grossly offensive regardless of the intent of the speaker, the same is generally not true in the UK — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 18:52, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

“You can prick your finger, but don’t finger your prick!” (George Carlin, in the Seven Words sketch)—Odysseus1479 03:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Reminds me of the saying, "you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose." Montanabw 04:59, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Wanker not recorded before 1950. Its origin unknown and certainly not in any local British dialect, argot or slang. Most likely it is British (probably Scots) public school slang dating from late Victorian times.

Stay away from our property Mr. Corbett, incidentally. Seriously. 207.207.24.129 (talk) 01:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Really? I've read in several books that it was recorded by the late 40s, and that it originated as an onomatopoeia - among college students - of the buzzer used in the popular 40s radio show Truth or Consequences. Keri (talk) 07:11, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

No, not at all. Apparently Partridge has a 1938 entry (pre-dating OED) dating it from the 1870s and noting the spelling whank in Scottish dialect. Onanopoeiac all right - think bed springs. 207.207.24.121 (talk) 13:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

What property might that be 207.207.24.129? Eric Corbett 12:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Our country estate, Eric. So obliged if you could find it somewhere deep in yourself to stay away. Of course we're huge admirers. Cheers. 207.207.24.121 (talk) 13:34, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Ooh, well lah-di-dah! I live on an estate, too. Keri (talk) 13:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I still have absolutely no idea what you're talking about 207.207.24.121. Could you or anyone else give me a clue? Have I ever visited your country estate 207.207.24.121? Is this a real-life threat or just more wiki-bollocks? Eric Corbett 14:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a load of old coughdrops. Keri (talk) 14:54, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Books and Bytes - Issue 7

The Misplaced Pages Library

Books & Bytes
Issue 7, June-July 2014
by The Interior (talk · contribs), Ocaasi (talk · contribs), Sadads (talk · contribs)

• Seven new donations, two expanded partnerships
• TWL's Final Report up, read the summary
• Adventures in Las Vegas, WikiConference USA, and updates from TWL coordinators
• Spotlight: Blog post on BNA's impact on one editor's research

Read the full newsletter

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 22:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't mind a hand, if you can spare one...

Hi Eric. I was hoping you might be able to lend me a hand with some article improvement work. I'm thinking of trying to get Bonshō to FA status - it would be the first attempt I've made at FA, and I could use a bit of help from someone with experience in that area of the project. Really, I'm after ideas for improvement, a kind of informal peer-review, if you like - content creation isn't my forté, and so I'm sure I miss stuff that other editors would spot immediately. If you can spare the time to cast an eye over the article and let me know your opinion, I'd be greatly appreciative. No huge rush; I've got another GA nomination that I'm working on and a couple of other things in the pipeline, so I'm in no hurry. Cheers, Yunshui _水 08:16, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks like an interesting article. I'll have a proper read through later. Eric Corbett 12:15, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Much obliged; I look forward to hearing what you think. Yunshui _水 12:48, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Every six months (or it feels like it) I pop onto Eric's page and say "you know what, really must get Van der Graaf Generator through FAC one of these days". Anyway, did some spring cleaning and found this quote from Fish : "women in particular either think Peter Hammill is brilliant or they hate him." () Given the past week's events, one might say the same about Eric. Ritchie333 15:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's gender specific. Dennis Brown recently called me "an equal opportunity offender", which made me laugh. Eric Corbett 16:05, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

You just hate commas. Admit it! You know you do! What would the Latin term for that be, anyway??? Commagyst? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:07, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I guess it would be Malleus Commam, wouldn't it? And User talk:Lugnuts sums up "equal opportunity offender" quite well. Ritchie333 16:13, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

It's not that I hate commas Ealdgyth, it's just that I feel about them much like I do about meringues. I love meringues, but I wouldn't want to have to eat a whole packet of them. Eric Corbett 18:08, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

And a "meringue" in the USA usually is made with egg whites and goes on top of lemon or key lime pie. Speaking of pie, there is also Pieing, which could be an alternative to blocking for being an equal opportunity offender. There is also Méringue, with a dance, which would help bring about world peace, which can begin right here on Eric's talk page. OK, enough word salad, carry on. Montanabw 23:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

I thought you'd come here to tell me that meringue was the second-most horrible sexist slur ever. Mind you, I'm not sure what I'd make of someone calling me a meringue, I'd have to think about that, lovingly and with kindness and consideration of course, in line with the recent dictat from our beloved leader. (I was thinking of meringue nests BTW, which there's an unopened packet of in one our kitchen cupboards.) Eric Corbett 23:22, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Eric your right. Linking a meringue to a woman is a sexist association to make. I mean, what sexist bastard would name a desert after a woman anyway? Cassianto 00:04, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Sexist desserts? Not on your nellie. There is also the delightfully non-PC Queen's Pudding, which itself has a soft meringue top. Woah! That's a redlink, regardless of where the apostrophe goes? - Sitush (talk) 07:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

You're thinking of Queen of Puddings. Ritchie333 11:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

That's it, thanks. Round my way - ie: in my mother's kitchen - it is Queen's Pudding or Queens' Pudding. She never writes it down; I never throw it up ;) I might pop round and drop a hint later today because all this talk of puds is making me peckish. - Sitush (talk) 11:41, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, back to articles ... one of the problems I've got with Van der Graaf is that a lot of the sourcing is, while approved by the band themselves, technically self-published - not least "The Book", which provides substantial in-depth information. Now, it's a self-published book officially endorsed and praised by the band (), but I have a nasty feeling that some people will disapprove of trying to pass anything even vaguely self-published that involves living people through FAC. What can you advise? Ritchie333 12:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Sexism versus gender imbalance

I was struck by your observation that sexism is not the same thing as gender imbalance. As a word maven, do you know of a term for the class of things that are obvious if you just spend a few seconds thinking about them, but not so obvious to prevent many intelligent people getting it wrong? I've run across a few of these, and it would be nice if there were an aggregate term.--S Philbrick(Talk) 17:25, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

'Commonly conflated'? Keri (talk) 17:40, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

The term I use for the class of things that are obviously untrue if you just spend a few seconds thinking about them is contemporary legend. Not quite what you were asking for though perhaps. Eric Corbett 18:04, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

A noun that covers such things pretty well is fallacy; plausible-seeming reasoning that falls apart on careful consideration can be described as specious.—Odysseus1479 18:28, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks all. Fallacy seems a little more general than I was looking for, while Commonly conflated is more specific. I could have helped things along by identifying other examples, but none were at the ready, so I'll think see if others comes back to me. As Eric guessed contemporary legend didn't hit me as the "of course, that's it" but will work for now. --S Philbrick(Talk) 00:24, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

A common misapprehension. Richerman (talk) 06:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Be careful, Richerman. Describing Miss Apprehension as "common" might bring you trouble in the current climate. - Sitush (talk) 07:45, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Well I did wake up with misgivings this morning :) Richerman (talk) 15:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm. There is also Miss-understanding. I think the fallacy you are thinking of when dealing with things that are commonly conflated is the adage "correlation does not mean causation." However, in contrast, I might also note a different adage, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you." Here, Eric is not the problem, though at times he volunteers to be a symbol of the problem by calling people bad names (and needs to tone it down). But Eric gets pushback and blocks not because he is a bully - he's not, he's just rude - but because the bullies see him as an easy mark to attack. His treatment due to his individual characteristics is actually similar to the issues of bias and bullying that certain groups of people face due to their status as a member of that group (women, but also certain ethnic/racial minorities). Montanabw 21:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

All the above aside, the reality is that there is significant gender imbalance on wiki, there is also some sexism, though not as extreme as the gender imbalance. Having a vague user name, I have rarely encountered sexism toward myself directly on wiki, but in a couple cases I had some annoying run-ins. (Most flak I get is just "teh usual drahmahz", sometimes self-inflicted due to snark) But watching work by others, I have seen some things that I sincerely hope everyone on this thread would disavow, like these sterling examples, which are actual personal attacks and bullying: , , Montanabw 21:12, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, how do the first two constitute actual personal attacks and bullying? Unless I'm misreading, in both cases, it looks like an editor talking to themselves. Not intelligently, nor coherently, but I don't see a personal attack.--S Philbrick(Talk) 23:27, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, I presume someone pissed them off. Whoever it was, if the invective was directed at that individual, then case closed. And frankly, the one rant against internet users in general, combining all sorts of invective, could be viewed as close to a personal threat. I'm surprised that the above said nonsense wasn't revdeled years ago. Montanabw 00:51, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Nuckelavee

On 6 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Nuckelavee, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the Orcadian Sea Mither confines the nuckelavee? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Nuckelavee. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:24, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Invitation to WikiProject TAFI

	Hello, Eric Corbett. You're invited to join WikiProject Today's articles for improvement. Feel free to nominate an article for improvement at the project's Nominated articles page. Also feel free to contribute to !voting for new weekly selections at the project's talk page. If interested in joining, please add your name to the list of members. NorthAmerica 16:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much every article I look at needs improvement, so I wish you well in your garguantan task. For myself, I'll just keep plodding away in my own time and in my own way. Eric Corbett 16:23, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I fear Eric has become a bad influence on my wiki career as I have recently described an article as "total shit". Ritchie333 11:04, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

RItchie, did you insult shit by comparing it to a poor quality wikipedia article? Poooor shit. Montanabw 21:15, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Chapter XXII, in which Pooh and Piglet accused of dropping too many articles.....

Here's an interesting one, (from Talk:Turquoise parrot/GA1)

Its neck and upperparts are grass-green, and tail is grass-green with yellow borders as well as The throat and chest are pale green and belly is yellow - my inclination is not to have a "the" before "tail" and "belly", however is that me just being a bit too eager to drop articles and I've been pinged before on things like this...so add a couple of "the"s ..or not? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 22:00, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I think you've been overly aggressive in removing the definite articles there, resulting in the sentences looking rather odd. Eric Corbett 22:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Its neck and upperparts are grass-green, and its tail is grass-green with yellow borders seems better to me.

If you want to cut words: The throat and chest are pale green and the belly yellow with commas to taste :) Geometry guy 00:58, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Oooh tempting.....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:09, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikimania 2014

I've just watched a couple of videos of presentations given at Wikimania 2014 and two things stand out for me. The first is that those of us who contribute words to this encyclopedia project need to be replaced as soon as possible by social-media aware children, preferably female, with multimedia expertise. The second is that Brandon Harris is a completely self-centred nutcase. Eric Corbett 23:15, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I see the schedule but I didn't see a link to videos. I'd like to see the Harris video.--S Philbrick(Talk) 00:27, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

They're all here. Eric Corbett 00:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I looked at the schedule a few days ago and thought "what a load of bollocks". However, all these hyper-aware types have missed a trick: probably they do have a sign-language interpreter somewhere on stage but they've not provided a subtitling facility nor, to the best of my knowledge, a transcript. And sign-language is far from being standardised, with particularly large differences betwen US one-hand and everyone else's two-hand. So deaf people like me will become the new marginal group. Well, not me because I'm a bloke also and so do not count ;) - Sitush (talk) 04:20, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

There was a sign-language interpreter on the Brandon Harris video; appeared to be using US one-hand, as they were just moving their right hand up and down with the thumb and index finger forming a ring. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 06:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Ha! - Sitush (talk) 06:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Surprisingly few if any of the presentations have on-stage interpreters. If you are interested, though, there is an Etherpad for each presentation - crowd-sourced and so incoherent in places, but better than nothing. Nikkimaria (talk) 07:52, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I looked at a few random etherpads, did not find one with any content so gave up.--S Philbrick(Talk) 12:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

The entire idea of etherpads is new to me but I, too, could find nothing. Given that I usually work on Indian articles, any incoherence would just have been an extension of my day-to-day experience here. - Sitush (talk) 12:46, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Given that court reporters have been able to generate coherent written transcript in real time for at least two decades, I'm surprised they are having such difficulties generating captions or transcripts. This isn't exactly bleeding edge technology. Montanabw 00:48, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

(Jimbo:)
As of course I do not worry that some content must be found,
I've got a little list — I've got a little list
Of civility offenders who might well be underground,
And who never would be missed — who never would be missed!
There's the pestilential nuisances though content they may write —
Say all sort of naughty words, and who just may who knows be tight
But at peer review do dominate, though saying words like "twat"—
And get articles through FAC, and little things like that —
But in spite of all of this, to say “fuck” they do insist —
They'd none of 'em be missed — they'd none of 'em be missed!

(Chorus of WMF sycophants:)
He's got 'em on the list — he's got 'em on the list;
And they'll none of 'em be missed — they'll none of 'em be missed.

(Jimbo:)
And although I don't write content, and could sink without a trace,
At least this is the gist — Put Eric on the list!
He's of course a bit annoying, and can get some in your face,
He never would be missed — he never would be missed!
In my speech I've just applauded, with enthusiastic tone,
How the 'pedia is trusted, in every country, and my own;
Though it oddly has escaped me, to ask the question "Why,
Is it that they trust articles, and rate them rather high?";
It's that singular anomaly, the content specialist! —
Somehow he won't be missed — I'm sure he'd not be missed!

(Chorus:)
He's got him on the list — he's got him on the list;
And I don't think he'll be missed — I'm sure he'll not be missed!

(Jimbo:)
To get articles deleted, like the one about my wife,
I try and do insist — I've got that on the list!
All funny fellows, content men, who have a little strife —
I've got them on the list — they'd none of 'em be missed.
And although I make a living with "God-King" speeches to the folk,
I won't let others earn a farthing, for unpaid must be the Volk.
Misplaced Pages is trusted, though sometimes when I feel blue —
I realise that others say, "It's not because of you!"
So I think it doesn't matter who you put upon the list,
For they'd none of 'em be missed — no one knows that they exist!

(Chorus:)
You may put 'em on the list — you may put 'em on the list;
And they'll none of 'em be missed — for none of them exist!

I thought "what's an MP doing at Wikimania", then released I was getting confused with Brandon Lewis. Ritchie333 14:57, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

It's taken you this long to come to the conclusion that Brandon Harris is a completely self-centred nutcase? "Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge. What a powerful idea that is. The Mission (and I always capitalize it) is what's important here. We are here to educate, to open minds, to make the world a better place. I believe in this so much that I had it tattooed on my arm" didn't do it for you? (And, who could the WMF possibly have had in mind here?) – iridescent 2 16:30, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Wales was actually even more dismissive than that in his speech. What he said while the slide was up was allegedly good content. So as he's drawing up battlelines he can hardly be surprised if others with a different viewpoint also decide to draw up their own battle lines. My initial alternative suggestion would be that WP could very easily do without Wales and the army of civility warriors hanging on his coat tails, so why doesn't he create a fork to a new CivilWikipedia? As for Brandon Harris, words fail me completely. Eric Corbett 16:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Whenever Jimbo starts spouting off about his knowledge of what it takes to write Misplaced Pages articles, this should never be forgotten. Looking in on Misplaced Pages from the semi-detached vantage point of the Island of Suppressive Persons, the more I come to believe that the only thing that can save Misplaced Pages now is Jimmy Wales being shown the door. It's increasingly coming to look like a religious cult in which any off-the-cuff remark of Jimbo's is treated as holy writ by some and as a declaration of war by others—this was always the case to some extent, but the shrinking and hyperspecialization of the user base has made the die-hard pros and antis for more powerful than they ever used to be. – iridescent 2 16:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that "allegedly". You know, Corbett, FAs on these fucking little esoteric topics, it ain't shit. I was looking for that speech by Brandon Harris (whom I don't know, although he seems to know a lot more about what I'm looking at--the interface--than I ever will) but couldn't find it on that "live" website: too complicated and too many colorful buttons for a text-oriented yokel like me. Sorry, like I. Iridescent, I am probably old-fashioned then. I have great respect for what Jimbo set in motion, but I don't take his word as gospel. I don't want him to be an admin, but I'm not going to vilify him either. If that talk page of his gets scrapped it would save everyone a lot of drama. Drmies (talk) 04:39, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

The Brandon Harris video is here. I recommend frequently jabbing the right arrow button to skip forward. Summing up the content is beyond me—perhaps all we need is hope? The Lila Tretikov video has a clearer theme—"If I'd asked people what they wanted, they would have asked for a better horse" attributed to Henry Ford. I guess that quote means that all top-down edicts are golden, and workers who point out flaws need re-education. Johnuniq (talk) 05:55, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

It's been a while since Wikimania. I hope Eric won't mind me dropping a couple of observations here. I've been meaning for some time to follow up with some of the people I met there, but haven't found the time yet. It was great meeting some people in person that I'd known online for ages but never met. I had no idea that you (Eric) were there. It would have been good to meet you, but maybe another time. Anyway, to pick up on what Sitush said about sign-language interpreters, I don't think there were any, though if someone had asked they might have been provided. I know there were subtitles on the Misplaced Pages Zero film, as that meant I actually managed to understand what was being said (which was somewhat of relief). I did also manage to get close enough to the front at the talks I went to (even in the main auditorium) to lipread the speakers, but comparing Wikimania to the Worldcon event (Loncon 3 - the World Science Fiction Convention) held the following weekend was interesting (I went to that as well). I'm not sure where Wikimania rates in terms of accessibility, but at Worldcon, they have long had 'access' badges for people to wear, and generally do a very good job in making the event moderately accessible to those with a wide range of disability and impairments. Still not perfect though - perfection for me would be subtitles for all the films and real-time Google Glass-type subtitling (there was a fascinating BBC article about that somewhere that should be Google-able). The other thing was the size and the number of people from around the world coming together. Though Wikimania had around 2000 people attending (I think), the numbers at WorldCon were higher (around 8000 I think), but the same theme is there of people from around the world coming together. I was reminded of that (and of Iridescent's comments about religious cults) when I was passing by Twickenham Stadium today, where an annual religious convention was being held (Jehovah's Witnesses, I think). That was around 55,000 people from around the world, so I think Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia has a way to go yet to match that (though that might cue a debate about size versus influence on today's world...). Carcharoth (talk) 23:31, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for John Gregorson Campbell

On 11 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article John Gregorson Campbell, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that John Gregorson Campbell was at the same time a church minister and a folklorist? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/John Gregorson Campbell. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Moral ambitiousness indeed!

I've watched a few videos of some of the presentations given at Wikimania 2014, and I've come to three conclusions:

• Those of us who are still adding text to articles are inhabiting some kind of technological dark age in this new multimedia world. So why bother?
• Jimmy Wales has determined that WP would be far better off without me, and I ought to be shown the door, as kindly and thoughtfully as possible of course.
• WP wants to be a machine-readable data store rather than an old-fashioned encyclopedia. Given that and all the other nonsense of recent weeks, including the surprise introduction of a new "superprotect" user right, a fork of at least the English Misplaced Pages, and probably the German Misplaced Pages, is looking increasingly likely.

He mentioned you by name? Good times! A recent use of the c-word was not deemed blockable. Drmies (talk) 14:45, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Not by name, no; that would have been unkind, thoughtless and libellous. That recent use of the c-word would no doubt have been deemed blockable if I'd used it. Brownhairedgirl's recent block reminded me very much of the FBI's prosecution against Al Capone for tax evasion, because they couldn't pin being a mobster on him. Eric Corbett 14:57, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Nothing surprises me anymore, when did I say that first? - How much more uncivil can you get than questioning a user's honour, all in sweet words? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:53, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

"Nothing surprises": found one in 2013 --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

What Jimmy continually fails to understand is that he himself is the font of the toxic environment he claims to so dislike, yet he enables it. Eric Corbett 15:02, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I said in the case request (in other words) that enforced civility is no civility. I had my (unfair) share of enforcement recently ;) - Guess what, they suggested to block me four a month for cleaning up after an edit war. I forgot my restrictions for a moment - I would remember them better if they made sense to me ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

We can read now that "incredibly toxic personalities" is regarded as a good phrase talking about civility. Nothing surprises ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:14, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Of course it is. Enemies of the state deserve no consideration, you know. Intothatdarkness 20:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

It's come to a sad state of affairs when calling someone a toxic personality merits a standing ovation, but suggesting that they may not have been at the front of the queue when brains were handed out is met with a 72-hour block amid rapturous approval. And in fact rapture may not be a bad way to describe what's going on here. Eric Corbett 20:54, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

... while "enforced love" is rape, - what's "enforced civility" then? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:21, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

1984. Eric Corbett 21:26, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

In a future list of offensive terms, I will suggest "toxic personality" for a high position, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:32, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Did you ever read my Wikispeak article? It's been added to by many others quite substantially since, but it's as true today as it ever was. Having seen a complaint/question (at the Teahouse?) earlier, this definition of WP:AFC jumped out at me:

Articles for creation. A place where articles don't get created, but sit languishing in purgatory.

Eric Corbett 21:46, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

No, I didn't, made my day. We should start a list of other useful terms such as WP:Great Dismal Swamp and Ethics of Dissensus (and thank their creators), - my own contribution, all too useful, He was despised, ""He gave his back – to the smiters – ... and his cheeks – to them – that plucked off the hair. – He hid – not his face – from shame – and spitting." --incredibly toxic personality (thanks for the model to Iridescent) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:01, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I wrote that WikiSpeak definition of AfC, but I think my favourite addition, that I believe is perfectly true and quite cutting is this one. Ritchie333 13:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Sadly my humble contribution to Wikispeak didn't survive. 2009 was too soon. --RexxS (talk) 18:47, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

But not if it comes from the mouth of the god-king. He is, after all, above reproach and incapable of behavior that isn't full of love and civility. Intothatdarkness 21:42, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Come on, "god-king", that's silly. So, Eric, you are to be asked to leave in dignity? Would you like me to delete your talk page when you exit? Drmies (talk) 23:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

No sillier than some of the pap that comes out of Jimbo's mouth. Or the postings of some of his courtiers. Intothatdarkness 13:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

In the spirit of Eric's original, bearing in mind the seemingly quasi-religious cultism during the Wikimania speech, should that be "disciples and courtiers"? - Sitush (talk) 13:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

The ones saying that "Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an open door policy." - where any normal editor would speak in the first person? --incredibly toxic personality --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Good point, Sitush. Consider the list amended to disciples, apostles, and courtiers...since there does seem to be a distinction between those who have arrived, those who are close to rapture, and those who wish to be considered worthy of the blessings and bounty. Intothatdarkness 14:54, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

• I'll leave when I'm good and ready, not because some half-assed believer in the idea of rapture thinks I ought to. Eric Corbett 23:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Like and SCOMN! Montanabw 22:43, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for the link to the unofficial transcript. Did he really only suggest that he was an idiot - that's playing to the gallery when on home ground, surely? And if he thinks that a YouGov poll that shows the British public trust WP more than news sources is a commendation then he's obviously missed the point, which is that the poll shows the British public don't really have a clue. On the other hand, and quietly as always, I've been spreading the love. Like you, I'll spread it as and when it seems appropriate. In my case, it usually turns out to be a triumph of hope over experience but surely is a sign of a person who isn't lacking in "honor". Although if a certain person in Washington DC were to get into trouble, I probably would just applaud from the sidelines. - Sitush (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

  We should add this twisted idea of "honor" to WP:Wikispeak. Eric Corbett 00:07, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

hope over experience

Thanks for "triumph of hope over experience", needed --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:50, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

What is it with ambitiousness anyway? Only an American would try to invent a noun from an adjective – ambitious – when there's already a perfectly good noun – ambition. Eric Corbett 21:52, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's weird but he did say that he didn't coin it, though there was no attribution. It was probably the monkey. Closer to home, what do you think about "ridiculousest"? - Sitush (talk) 01:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales has taken leave of his senses and obviously can't see what he said was extremely toxic and as such the root of all civility issues here. So I take it the rule now is, you can be rude as you like so long as you do it politely and in a loving way. Hot air and righteous indignation do not write encyclopedias, content editors do. I came here to write not join a lovey-dovey cult. (checked for typos) J3Mrs (talk) 12:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) After that last block attempt I decided that if they could figure out a way to stop and search Eric they would. Here is what we'd be seeing. BTW, when reading a claim that seems hard to believe I tend to not believe anything that I have not seen with my own eyes, so I had my doubts about the claims that the admins are out to get Eric. That changed when Eric helped me to do my first DYK and it was purposely held up because the admin that was reviewing it decided to punish Eric for being right about a MOS issue. I no longer remembered the particulars, and in fact when I looked back for the incident a few days ago I found neither hide nor hair of it - she had deleted all mention of it from her talk page. Gandydancer (talk) 16:16, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Administrators have many advantages over us, not the least of which is that they can hide their tracks. Eric Corbett 16:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

I take it you guys have heard of the Best known for IP, who's a great example of making good faith edits while calling everyone a cunt if they act like one (and sometimes even if they don't). He's been blocked more times than Eric (maybe). Ritchie333 16:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

• That's the case I was referring to, Ritchie. It's still on ANI, I'm sure--I'm not checking back in. Funny thing was, that IP editor (pot) brought up the thread against a registered kettle. Drmies (talk) 17:21, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

For years the principal instigator of this clampdown serially demanded the punishment of editors who failed to pass her particular standards of civility. Now Jimmy Wales wants these editors, if they are also productive long term content builders, banned outright from Misplaced Pages. It appears we have a new quasi-religious regime with ritual trappings. It will ferret out "toxic personalities" and then excommunicate them in a spirit of love, righteousness and purification. And I thought the admin system has reached the limits of craziness. --Epipelagic (talk) 03:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I listened through Jimbo's talk, and I don't get the impression he wants to throw Eric out. Rather, he would prefer that Eric, say, takes his research and writing skills and goes after a commercial publisher who will pay him to write something like Manchester Ship Canal For Dummies, which Misplaced Pages can then use as a reliable source. Actually, Jimbo said Eric should do all that for free, but I'm more of a pragmatist - if your work is of the "professional standard" met by the FA criteria, you ought to receive "professional" levels of compensation. Ritchie333 08:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

He offered to pay for the server and was certain that the fork would fail. - Sitush (talk)

Help all you smart people

I know for a fact there is a guidelines on doing "lists of notable alumni" and such things, that is, lists within articles. And I know that the guidelines says "we suggest you include only notable people/items/ferrets", and that "notable" is easily defined as "having a Misplaced Pages article". But I can't find that damn guideline anywhere, and I need to cite it. Oh, and that list also says "cut down on the detail and no more wikilinks please". Pretty please? Drmies (talk) 04:30, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe obvious, but just in case … not WP:EMBED or WP:NLIST, or anything else in {{List navbox}}? I found a few relevant essays and an old policy proposal, but no other guidelines.—Odysseus1479 05:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

If you find it, let's change it. I love red links. In List of composers by name, people with an article in any WP are accepted (after we had a discussion on the topic). In a list with alumni, I like to read what they mainly do later in life, for example. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:35, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists- section on lists of people- A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met: The person meets the Misplaced Pages notability requirement. The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources. The person has not or will not be committing an offense, nor has intention of committing such an offense, nor is a member of or was previously a member of a group committing, having committed or intending to commit, or has intention of joining or supporting such a group for the purposes of an offense against, or causing a breach of, civility. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 12:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Mmm, that's for stand-alone lists though, rather than lists inside other articles. I would guess that the principle is the same, though. Black Kite (talk) 12:16, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Aha, how about this? Misplaced Pages:Bio#Lists_of_people? Black Kite (talk) 12:18, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you all. Misplaced Pages:Notable alumni has a few words to offer, but Misplaced Pages:WPSCH/AG#Alumni, which DMacks kindly pointed out, is what I was thinking of. Thanks again! Drmies (talk) 14:12, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

William Beach Thomas

Eric, please would you consider applying your toxicity to William Beach Thomas? It has gone through GAN recently but I'll be taking it to FAC very soon - there really doesn't seem to be much more out there about the man, even offline. I'd be happier if you could give it the once-over and, in particular, nail any dodgy phrasing and grammar. Apparently, it contains a zeugma but I'm mystified about that. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 16:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

“e said, as he hastened to put out the cat, / The wine, his cigar, and the lamps: / Have some madeira, m’dear She lowered her standards by raising her glass, / Her courage, her eyes, and his hopes he made no reply, / Up her mind, and a dash for the door. “ (Flanders & Swann, At the Drop of a Hat) —Odysseus1479 03:49, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks and, yes, I can see why those constructs might be considered awkward to understand even though grammatically correct. My possible slip into this territory is: "Public opinion at home may have been mollified, even uplifted, by the efforts of the correspondents but the troops were not, despite the demand among them for newspapers from home being high." The reviewer eventually decided that it was probably ok but that they would phrase it differently. Something to do with mollified having a slightly different meaning wrt public opinion and troops. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

That grates a bit on my ear, too; opinion and troops are different enough to seem odd when placed in parallel. (Indulging in some more ‘jargon-dropping‘, one might say that there’s metonymy concerning the latter but not the former.) A match for the troops would be the public; if you want to keep opinion you need a closer counterpart in the second half, perhaps something like “… but morale was not, despite the demand among the troops for ….” To lay on the parallelism even thicker, you could say something like “morale in the trenches”, echoing “opinion at home“. For a minimal change, an apostrophe could serve to imply the appropriate comparison: “… but the troops’ was not, –” but that demands a little more of the reader’s attention-span and some gnome-wannabe will probably come along and delete it as an erroneous plural.—Odysseus1479 03:26, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Look at what taking EC's name in vain does!

This is likely to be of interest to Eric and his page stalkers, Eric is mentioned in this draft essay in my userspace that has now been nominated for deletion. User:Montanabw/Brat_in_a_bubble. Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Montanabw/Brat in a bubble. Montanabw 20:39, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Sadly, the only effect is to make Malleus' addiction worse. A problem that no one in these circles can come to terms with. 65.27.229.225 (talk) 04:09, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I know anyone from Ohio. Would you care to introduce yourself? Eric Corbett 10:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I have a colleague from Ohio, but he's a really nice guy, though a bit tall for my taste. Drmies (talk) 14:22, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

New rumor : Drmies likes midget porn. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

At least this guy's not an asshole about the stupid THE Ohio University. (See Talk:The_Ohio_State_University#Naming_Convention, for instance.) For more on how dumb we get in the US, there's Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The U on the Everlasting Question of Why The U Should Be Anything BUT The University Of Miami. Drmies (talk) 14:59, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Luckily, my little drama was closed as keep. As for "the U", we all know it's actually Griz Nation! (heh) Montanabw 21:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

That was an extraordinary little episode. Clearly you're not considered to be of the body. Eric Corbett 21:13, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind...

...if on occasion I treat your talk page like it was a noticeboard for English questions (not the language, but the rainy place). Can one or more of your stalkers please have a look at Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Edwin_Hunt_.28waterman.29? Thanks, Drmies (talk) 14:21, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks so far, Eric. I made a few little tweaks to the article (and wrote up a superstubby stub for Rhino ferry)--if any of your visitors can dig through their archive goldmines to beef up that article, that would be wonderful. Edwin Hunt (waterman) helped move troops and material during the Normandy landings, and apparently he's still around: pretty amazing. Thanks again, Drmies (talk) 15:29, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

  England isn't just a rainy place Drmies, we also have more tornadoes than anywhere else on Earth. Some days the Sun even shines. Makes life a little more interesting when you can't wake up every morning thinking "Oh, it's going to be scorchio again today". Eric Corbett 21:18, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

  Really? I mean, I'd be surprised if you got it wrong but that is a new one to me. Anywhere else on Earth? Wow. One that does always amuse me is the belief - popularly held in England - that Manchester is a particularly rainy city. It is a belief that is especially prevalent among "southerners" (Northern synonym: "twats", but just possibly an over-generalisation) That is misplaced. Well, I suppose anything can be fixed using stats but I do recall seeing a Met Office summary in the last year or so that said, quite specifically, that it is bollocks and that London etc have had and do get far more rain than Manchester. The same with the daft notion that the north of England is "cold": sure, I've slept in a tent at -18 C in the north, and worse in Scotland, but the snow/ice problems tend usually to be reported as most severe in Kent etc. Perhaps, though, that is just the southern bias in news reporting? Entirely anecdotally, the most persistently cold English place I've ever lived in was Cambridge, which for the geographically challenged is south-east England whereas Manchester is north-west. Still, whatever it may be, I prefer rainy to scorchio, in which circumstances my hearing aids fry-up due to sweat-induced short-circuiting. That has happened quite a lot in the last few weeks. - Sitush (talk) 23:39, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

  I did get it a bit wrong; it's more tornadoes per square kilometre. Eric Corbett 23:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Help please

I need a little help. Looking at the Ebola virus disease article I have written "Ebola virus disease (EVD) or Ebola hemorrhagic fever (EHF) is a disease of humans and other primates caused by an ebolavirus". However, looking at the ebolavirus page I find that the word should not be used with an article. Does this mean that I should not use the "an"? Sorry if this is a dumb question, but I expect to get disagreements if I change it. Gandydancer (talk) 18:03, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

There will no doubt be many others who know far more about the correct way to refer to viruses than I do. My simple-minded interpretation is that if you use "an" then you're referring to the genus, which ought to be capitalised as in "an Ebolavirus", rather than to a specific virus, where the article should be omitted. Eric Corbett 18:27, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it seems that perhaps it should be written "the genus Ebolavirus", but that sounds odd. Gandydancer (talk) 20:29, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

It does indeed sound odd, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that your sentence ought to read "Ebola virus disease (EVD) or Ebola hemorrhagic fever (EHF) is a disease of humans and other primates caused by an Ebolavirus". Eric Corbett 20:44, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I did figure it out. I think Ebolavirus would not be correct because one would not use the name of the genus when referring to the causative agent of a disease. The "don't use an article" refers to a specific virus, Ebola virus for example. I am referring to all of the species within the genus, so its proper to use an article. Gandydancer (talk) 23:52, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Quite. Eric Corbett 13:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Justice

Hey Eric, if you're not busy lately, can you copyedit the 'Live performances' section of ...And Justice for All? I'm planning an FA nomination, but that section seems the weakest facet of the article and a potential stumbling block at the review. I did some wording today, but help from you will be mostly welcomed. All the best.--Retrohead (talk) 18:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I'll take a look, but I suggest you try Martinevans123. He's the real FA expert, I'm just a drone. Eric Corbett 18:08, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I've had a look at that section and made a few changes, but I'm afraid it's obvious on even a quick scan through the rest of the article that some more work needs to be done if you're to meet the FA criteria. Here are just a couple of examples:

• "...And Justice for All has a lyrical material featuring a conceptual uniformity around notions of political and legal injustice as seen through the prism of war, censored speech, and nuclear brinkmanship.". I just can't make sense of that: contains "lyrical material" or "has a lyrical quality" perhaps? I just don't know what you're trying to say.
• "... the bass line was a medley of unused recordings Burton had performed prior to his death." It would have been far more interesting had he performed them after his death. Eric Corbett 12:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

An invitation

I invite everyone to join me in a one week boycott of editing any WP articles, in protest against Jimbo Wales' new "moral ambitiousness" campaign and the completely incompetent WMF and its software developers. Eric Corbett 00:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Tempting, except no one will notice. We need to do something more visible, yet subtle like this. Montanabw 03:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

People would notice if enough participated but the scale - a full week - might put a lot off. I forget who it was but someone on Jumbo's page suggested a rolling system, starting with one day per week and escalating if the WMF didn't pay attention (which they won't, at first). One day a week for four weeks, two days a week for another four etc might actually ease withdrawal symptoms in some and thus cause a larger body of support. In the long run, even though some participants will try to catch up on their return, the WMF will find that they are exposed to an increased number of legal problems due to lack of article maintenance, especially with regard to BLP and copyright violations. Ultimately, they might be forced to use their new powers to lock-down editing completely on the off-days and that would be a significant blow to their charitable mission. - Sitush (talk) 06:27, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Eric, what do you think it would change? More forgiveness? Better software? - I commented to the Signpost. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I doubt anyone would notice in the short term...sadly. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:16, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

But they might if we adopted Sitush's rolling system, which I quite like. Eric Corbett 07:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Someone would no doubt quote Misplaced Pages:Don't feed the divas or WP:POINT or somesuch. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:41, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

No doubt, but so what? Eric Corbett 11:07, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

A healthier environment less like a cult and no more rubbish software forced upon us by the WMF. Eric Corbett 11:07, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it would make much difference, as the masses would still edit. They plainly value quantity over quality.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:17, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

You're probably right, and certainly right about the WMF. But what's the alternative? Those of us who don't buy into the personality cult of Jimbo Wales simply wait to be shunned? We get more and more poorly designed software thrust upon us by the WMF? Is that our future? Eric Corbett 17:44, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

The masses can continue to edit, yes. That's actually a part of my rationale above: it will create immense BLP/copyvio etc problems that will take a very long time for the relatively small number of experienced contributors to fix. Meanwhile, the legal hassles will grow for the WMF. - Sitush (talk) 18:53, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Fascinating idea. I quite like it. Intothatdarkness 19:38, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I think there are enough redundant parts to the machine (check the number of watchers on significant BLPs) that it would be difficult to have an effective strike. Outside publicity and embarrassment might move Jimbo, but I'm not sure how that might be accomplished.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:43, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think so, and the "outside publicity and embarrassment" would follow from the legal issues etc. - Sitush (talk) 20:50, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and I think the German press has been all over the superprotect thing. - Sitush (talk) 20:51, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Moral ambitiousness sounds like something dreamed up by the late Chairman Mao, and much as our esteemed leader and god king would love to have Mao's power and charisma - he doesn't. I really would just ignore it all - it will pass as all such things pass. He may believe that the 2,000 clapping seals at Wikimania are writing this project, but we know different. I suspect they had just wandered in off the street - had there been a sudden storm? Really he's just hoisted by his own petard; the kindest thing one can do is ignore it. On no account must it be indulged or encouraged. Giano (talk) 21:10, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Please excuse the further digression but, hm, Mao and Ayn Rand? That would "sort of" be empirical evidence of one of my pet theories, that there is little difference/there is much commonality between the fairly extreme lefts and rights of politics and philosophy. There is a big assumption in this but I am pretty sure that it was Rand who coined the phrase "moral ambition" or "moral ambitiousness". I do remember being recommended to read Atlas Shrugged by my GP shortly before he retired. He and the presumptive God alone knows why, but I did as I was told and I got bored with it, quickly. Give me William Cobbett or Rousseau any day: not necessarily aligned with my own thoughts but interesting and not cult-ish.

It is also interesting also that another vocal-but-cleverly-vague opponent of Eric, myself and others is an avowed Rand/Libertarian fan. Eric will know who I mean. I really do not understand how this libertarian concept - small government, freedom of the individual etc - aligns with "let's stuff those whom we think are uncivil". But that's where the left/right similarities come in, I guess: totalitarianism appears at both ends of the spectrum and, yes, is the ultimate commonality. But, like I said, I am digressing. I am, though, reminded of (paraphrase) "I disagree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it". Voltaire, allegedly, although some sources say the attribution is a myth of sorts. - Sitush (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

You're right, it was Ayn Rand, in The Virtue of Selfishness. I always suspected Misplaced Pages was a computer game - turns out it's BioShock! Keri (talk) 00:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” (Orwell, Animal Farm)—Odysseus1479 00:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Heh. I still like something akin to black armbands. Particularly in edit summaries or on user pages, something akin to the cabal stamp, only the opposite. Montanabw 06:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• I've decided that Wednesday will be my day of silence for the foreseeable future, and in line with Sitush's suggestion I will not be attempting to address any BLP issues that may have arisen during my absence. If nobody joins me then fine, but don't get sucked into the cult. Eric Corbett 22:17, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

• Actually I'm switching to Monday for my strike, as I've seen others do. Better we all do it on the same day. Eric Corbett 23:08, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

DYK for Stoor worm

On 20 August 2014, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Stoor worm, which you recently created or substantially expanded. The fact was ... that the stoor worm, a sea monster of Orcadian mythology, could destroy humans with its putrid breath? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Stoor worm. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, live views, daily totals), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Thanks from me and the wiki Victuallers (talk) 00:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

St John's Gardens, Manchester

Hi Eric, you might know of the St John's Gardens, Manchester and might find some more sources to expand it. My sister bought my mother a trip up to Corrie for her birthday and I saw this on a map of central Manchester they had.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I can't remember ever being there, but I'll see what I can find. Eric Corbett 12:58, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Isaac Perrins was buried at the church there, IIRC. - Sitush (talk) 13:33, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I see that you and I are the top two editors on that article, which was mostly written by you. Another example proving what I said recently on Jimbo's page about the myth of crowdsourcing. Eric Corbett 13:50, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Not sure which John Owens and William Marsden they were.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The garden would appear to be the site of St John's, one of Manchester's lost churches according to Clare Hartwell, , it was drawn by JMW Turner, and Edward Byrom who built it was the son of John Byrom with an "o" and could possibly probably warrant a stub. Owens was the founder of Owens College. J3Mrs (talk) 13:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious to me that with all the additions Sitush is making we really need two articles, one on the church and the other on the modern-day gardens. Eric Corbett 16:54, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Agree but he's pretty fed up with me at the moment. Manchester has several "lost churches". At least Sitush used new material instead of cutting out chunks of MediaCityUK. J3Mrs (talk) 17:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, I remember that battle we had over MediaCityUK. The trick was to force it to GA I think. But I'm sure Sitush isn't fed up with you, and even if he is, he'll soon get over it. Eric Corbett 17:10, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know. I think he's got very enthusiastic about the BNA, as have I. I'm sure there's more than enough information in it to do articles on all the lost churches. I absolutely hate that MediaCity article, I know nothing is ever finished but regular maintenance is the only thing that stops it deteriorating into the mush we started with.

No, I'm not fed up with you, J3Mrs. It was just getting a bit confusing, that's all. I'm going to have a bite to eat so please feel free to reorganise/fork/whatever and I'll come back to it. This is one that I actually had in mind from way back when I was involved with the Perrins article but at that time it would have meant spending many hours in a library and now, with the BNA access, it doesn't. - Sitush (talk) 17:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually you've reminded me J3Mrs of an article I've long wanted to improve, Jerome Caminada, Manchester's Sherlock Holmes. I'd almost forgotten about it, but access to the BNA might well be a big help now. Eric Corbett 17:25, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I got access to Findmypast too but am not sure how to use it as it's a primary source. I don't know why I got it really and I've no idea how to format the reference. There aren't many Caminadas so he's easy to find. J3Mrs (talk) 18:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

A useful resource I may apply for myself. I think the restrictions on using primary sources such as birth and death certificates only apply to BLPs, which it's a good idea to steer clear of anyway. But if I'm wrong no doubt an admin will be along shortly to correct me. Eric Corbett 19:04, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I think the issue generally is one of original research, even in non-BLPs. One of my sisters-in-law is literally the only person in this country to have borne her name and almost certainly the only person in the world, ever. This is because of an admin cock-up way back when her father came to this country before she was born. But pulling her birth certificate, even after death, would be regarding as WP:OR by the sticklers. - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 21 August 2014 (UTC) (signing very late - Erics 22:02 response is subsequent to this msg but I can't be bothered using {{signed}}

I think there's a lot of confusion around this "original research" issue. It's hardly OR to pull up a birth certificate for instance, that's just presenting the facts. OR is when you draw conclusions from those sources, rather than simply report them. The major restriction comes from the whacky BLP policy, which doesn't allow any mention of a subject's personal details such as date of birth. Eric Corbett 22:02, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I agree, but this is where the sticklers rule. As with that recent waterman issue at BLPN, how can we be sure that the person named is indeed the person for whom we have found a birth/death etc certificate? And, in fairness to them, I've occasionally had such issues when researching my own genealogy. - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

As with that recent waterman's issue there can usually be no doubt. It's ridiculous to rely on an anecdotal account published in a book when it defies what the subject says, what his birth certificate says, and common sense. The word "research" is abused in such cases. Eric Corbett 04:02, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Re: St John's Church, it appears commonly in the news sources as "St John's Church, Deansgate" even though, strictly speaking, it was not on Deansgate. Anyone got any thoughts regarding the most appropriate article title for the thing? I think we should use Deansgate per WP:COMMONNAME but am open to alternatives. - Sitush (talk) 21:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

St John's Church, Manchester would be the best title I think.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I was only thinking that last week. I've recently been reading the various books about Manchester's criminal gangs etc and, after doing the usual Google search, it struck me that BNA might be more useful for his bio article. The danger might be sensationalist writing (Caminada seems not to have been shy about promoting himself either). - Sitush (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

St Johns steeple is visible on Blackfriars Bridge, Manchester. BTW there's a good Spanish restaurant down there.Parrot of Doom 18:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Edit, bah, ignore me, I think it's St Peters' Church. Parrot of Doom 18:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I always love finding articles on buildings and structures which no longer exist and were prominent locally in the past. I was most impressed with Eric's article on a demolished bridge or something in the Manchester area, can't remember what it was called though. Its great browsing through some of the old photos of New York and Los Angeles and seeing some of the old firms and buildings which have been demolished. The more coverage we have of things like this the better I think, but part of the puzzle is starting articles and finding red links from various sources and building it. I'd split the full details on the church into a separate article though and condense it in the main to focus more on the gardens Sitush. I'll let you do it seems as you added the content!♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:03, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you perhaps thinking of Hanging Bridge? I think my masterpiece in that genre though has to be Malkin Tower, a hovel demolished in the early 17th century. Eric Corbett 19:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

It was a GA I think I reviewed actually, was it a bridge or a canal, I can't remember! I know it no longer exists though.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Barton Aqueduct. That was it. A year ago I reviewed that, seemed longer ago than that!♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:19, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Ah yes, although strictly that was in Salford, not Manchester. ;-) It's interesting how one thing leads to another, as in the the discussion above about the swing bridge. Eric Corbett 19:22, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Jerome Cammada, Chief Inspector of Detective Police (1891 Census)- the census invigilator actually did write Caminada, the electronic transcription is at error. Lived next door to Kate Paris, Professor of Languages. Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 06:04, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

WikiWand anyone?

I've just become aware of a new more modern interface for reading WP articles, WikiWand. Here is what our kelpie article looks like for instance. Why wouldn't anyone only interested in reading WP rather than editing it – the overwhelming majority of people – not prefer to use an interface like that? Eric Corbett 13:00, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

... and if you do want to edit you can just click on the "edit" option from the main menu, which takes you straight to WP's wikitext editor. Eric Corbett 13:05, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Wow, that really is great actually. I've never seen that before. Let's just lobby the foundation to adopt it or something similar. I'm sure we wouldn't hit any snags. Basalisk ⁄_berate 13:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Eric all your page stalkers will be stopping writing and looking at "their" articles on WikiWand, and very nice they look too. As you know I am completely bamboozled by anything technical so I think it is very clever of them to create something that looks more like a page in a book. (I do like books) Only thing I could object to at the minute is that the organisation gives money to Misplaced Pages, what a waste. It shows just what is possible without all the posturing. I usually don't like change, it's an age thing. Once I've learned how to do something I don't want to have to relearn because somebody's "improved" it, but I like this because I don't have to do anything and it's easy to look at. I'm quite enthusiastic today, but not about Misplaced Pages. J3Mrs (talk) 14:51, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what I did :) Suddenly I'm glad I like making sure the castle articles I work on have a half decent lead image as it becomes a nice looking backdrop. I mean look at this. I almost wouldn't care what the rest of the page says. Nev1 (talk) 20:29, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks beautiful, doesn't it. I can't work out what you've done differently to what I tried to do with Little Moreton Hall, but I can't get that lovely background image. Eric Corbett 20:32, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Althorp looks great with the background image. Quite a few articles for some reason though don't have it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:16, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Taking a wild stab in the dark, but I wonder if it's because the lead image for Little Moreton Hall is more square than say the one for Althorp. Nev1 (talk) 21:20, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I suppose it may be something to do with the image's aspect ratio ... would be nice to know for sure. Eric Corbett 21:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The dark gray with white text on the left I also think has the effect of making the text in the body stand out more and gives it a more spacious feeling.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:27, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention the obvious enhancement of having the contents list always available. Why didn't Brandon think of that? Eric Corbett 21:53, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Gropecunt and Peterloo have the big image but the image selection is strange and they're maps which don't look as good as images. Must be as Nev suggested to do with shape.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Carrington Moss is an old one of mine and that displays the big image, I think it's likely down to horizontal aspect and high resolution. Parrot of Doom 23:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks really good doesn't it? The design makes the screen look much more airy and easier to read. The reader function on the safari browser is also worth check out. There really ought to be a "read" mode option for wikipedia I think rather like that.♦ Dr. Blofeld 16:24, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I like the appearance and utiliy. Also welcome is the occasional comic addition (at least in Safari), e.g. at the head of the Creation Museum article, above the infobox, a photograph of Bill Maher captioned "Creation Museum". Writegeist (talk) 16:38, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Happens in Firefox too. Probably a bug in the Misplaced Pages API. Eric Corbett 17:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a good one, I almost expected to see a caption in the top picture "Jimmy Wales discussing a map displaying the global distribution of human toxicity" :-)♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:13, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Assuming Brandon Harris gets his way, in the near future, every Misplaced Pages page is going to look like this, which might be a good compromise between readability and editability. I think the world could happily do without the "snowflakes" nonsense, mind. 2.96.213.173 (talk) 17:17, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

It's time Brandon Harris found a job more suited to his lack of talent. Eric Corbett 18:30, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Seems to me the WMF is the perfect fit, unfortunately. Writegeist (talk) 19:14, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

You have a point. Eric Corbett 19:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Urgh, it looks even blander and nastier than the current one!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:53, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

That's...awful. Poor font choice, horrific layout...did they raid an old "how not to design your web page" handout for that? Intothatdarkness 19:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

It so piqued my interest that I obtained a full transcript of BH's job interview:

Interviewer: Good morning.

BH: Yo, bro!

Interviewer: So tell me about your design credentials.

BH: Er, "design"? "Credentials"?

Interviewer: Wow! Welcome aboard.

— Writegeist (talk) 20:23, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Sadly the developers seem to overlook aesthetics in favour of what they think is more user friendly, but what they don't seem to realise is that reader attention is grabbed much better with something bolder like that prominent image header with a white text and that graphics and layout play an important part in making reading more pleasurable. For some reason a lot of people on here seem to think whiter and blander/simple is better, hell I've even seen proposals for main page redesign as like google's search engine!♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

It's very pretty, you can download a Chrome extension here. The trouble is, while browsing the normal Misplaced Pages my pages scroll up and down perfectly - but in Wikiwand, there's that slight lag when I roll the wheel. That kind of thing always irritates me and I end up turning everything off. Parrot of Doom 21:37, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you noticed the hover function too over the article links, with a nice summary and image and a read full article option. It's technically as close to perfection as I've seen for a design. Why can't the foundation hire somebody like whoever did that with a clear talent for design! It would completely change my perception of the website and reading on here to have something like this. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The WMF claim to have the interests of the reader at heart – they clearly couldn't give a toss about the interests of the editors anyway – but if they walked the talk they'd have developed something like WikiWand themselves, rather than yet another Brandon Harris fantasy. Eric Corbett 21:49, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed that and to be honest, it annoyed me. But I'm the kind of guy who prefers simple, utilitarian layouts. I can't stand it when little popups appear under my mouse, and annoyingly most websites seem to think I'm interested in every tiny aspect of every element on every webpage. Personally I quite like the current standard Misplaced Pages layout, I find it very easy on the eyes. The Wikiwand thing is very pretty though. Parrot of Doom 23:22, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

When the hover function appeared several (but not all) of the user and page section links on my watchlist ceased to function. (E.g. this page.) Anyone else getting that? Disabling the hover makes no difference. Writegeist (talk) 00:25, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Article here about it. And read what the designer says about our current design here. "“It didn't make sense to us that the 5th most popular website in the world, used by half a billion people, has an interface that hasn't been updated in over a decade.” Exactly..♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:04, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting it was all done with $600,000. How many millions of dollars has the WMF wasted on VisualEditor, and the looming disaster of Flow? Or is still wasting on Brandon Harris's Winter interface? Eric Corbett 22:20, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Groan, read the comment by nihiltres at the bottom of the first link. Makes me wonder if he is actually Brandon himself. It's that sort of outlook which has held wikipedia back for so long!♦ Dr. Blofeld 22:26, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Brandon Harris is what he is, but what he should not be is employed as a software developer. Eric Corbett 22:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

But he proudly tattoos everything that is important to him on his arm(s). Surely, he must therefore always be right? As with all those men who had their lifelong loves tattooed - "John <heart> Marge" etc. I'd trust him, honestly ... with not a lot. Sitush (talk) 00:01, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

It's the "courage" tattoo that puzzles me. But then I'm not made of steel wool soaked in whisky. Eric Corbett 00:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Dutch courage? Writegeist (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Fantastic! The "contextually-relevant ads" will rake in a fortune. Are they going public soon? --Boson (talk) 01:25, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

• Here's a reply I got recently from WikiWand, but it's rather vague, and having tried out a few things with the lead image in Little Moreton Hall I don't believe it. Either that or their algorithms for image selection are faulty. Eric Corbett 19:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

If they are going to put in advertising, then we have defeated the wholepurpose of wikipedia. Sigh... Montanabw 20:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

WikiWand

Thanks Eric for your interest and edit. I just wanted to see how this image would show up on WikiWand. After all, there's a lot of hype about improved images. Have now found and substituted their own logo. It seems to take about 10 minutes before things show up on their site. As it comes out very small on the standard Misplaced Pages interface, it will be interesting to see how it looks on their own interface. Thanks for questioning the cover images on Facebook.--Ipigott (talk) 19:55, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

WikiWand is a promising start, but it's only a start. Their choice of cover/lead images is quite simply bizarre for instance. Eric Corbett 20:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, they need to accept the lead image of the article, and if it's in an infobox, (as are nearly al the science articles) to make use of the data there as well as the image. Montanabw 20:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I've been messing about with the lead image of Little Moreton Hall to try and get it to have a cover image in WikiWand, which it does now, and it now looks exactly as I'd expect it to. Eric Corbett 21:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I use WikiWand all the time for browsing now. If I go back to browsing with standard it's like I've gone back ten years to the Internet dark ages! I like the way you can click edit and it'll open a new tab on wikipedia though. It's not perfect, especially with image selection (also with the habit of adding a bloated image on top of an infobox in the lede), but it's certainly the closest design to perfection that I've seen and far superior to standard. Hopefully we can encourage them to revise their image coding as Montana and Ipigott have suggested.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:20, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

BNA

Eric, your edit here might just cause problems with our BNA deal. IIRC, we were asked to use a certain format so that metrics of some sort could be processed, and continuation of the deal depends on the metrics. Being an idiot when it comes to knowing how people generate statistics etc here, I'm not sure if that can still be done with your style. I'll @Sadads: for input. - Sitush (talk) 21:22, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sure it's absolutely fine; it's a format I've used for Questia/Highbeam for ages. Eric Corbett 21:33, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd better change them at the Beach Thomas thing, then. I must admit to having doubts about using the publisher field but I had enough arguments going on without challenging that one also. - Sitush (talk) 21:36, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Using the "via" parameter should be okay as far as stats go (and speaking unofficially, that's the format I would prefer). Nikkimaria (talk) 05:41, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

In general, whichever format is fine: most of our metrics are based on urls. We prefer the via = or similar attribution for the publishing database. The original citatation had that information in " |publisher = " because I had overlooked the guidelines. Either should suffice, but I think, for long term computer-friendliness the "via =" works better. Sadads (talk) 15:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Dolebury Warren

Would you (or your talk page stalkers) be kind enough to take a look at Dolebury Warren. I'm hoping to get it to GA standard before long and have recently been accused (at another GA nom) of writing "choppy prose". Any edits appreciated. The pics will be improve soon when I upload some more as part of Septembers Wiki Loves Monuments UK competition.— Rod 09:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Do you reckon Mendip Lodge itself is notable enough for an article? I don't know what's left of it now, there was one wall standing and a wine cellar back in the 1970s (and the usual story about a demented woman locked up in a room). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe - there is some stuff here and pics here, but I don't know the current state of the building.— Rod 16:45, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

It appears it was built by Thomas Sedgwick Whalley. The drive up to the house was bordered by rhododendrons- that's probably still visible.Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 17:12, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Lots of stuff on Whalley & his involvement here.— Rod 17:22, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm gradually reading through the stuff (at the speed of a somnolent snail, I'm afraid). Xanthomelanoussprog (talk) 10:39, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

St John's Church, Manchester

St John's Church, Manchester has really come on amazingly well. At quick glance aside from the lead needing expansion and some minor prose work needed it is already well on its way to GA level in my opinion. Perhaps @Peter I. Vardy: and @Bencherlite: could also look at it, seems as they are our resident church experts, sorry Amanda :-) I'm highly impressed Sitush and J3Mrs, especially considering it was demolished so long ago and you found all that for it!♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

@Sitush:, there's a colour painting here. Can you trace the author/date? Probably uploadable. It would be good to get the two images abut a quarter the way down here but unlike US pre 1923 means nothing.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:49, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Wrong church - that one's St John's, Haymarket, in Liverpool (near what was Manchester Street). Neatsfoot (talk) 17:26, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

RFAR clarification

Letting you know that I opened a clarification/amendment request to update the topic ban to exclude Drmies's talk page. Protonk (talk) 20:30, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh dear, all the usual suspects will now once again be clamouring for my expulsion given the free for all at the ArbCom pages. The problem with appealing anything here on WP is that you must first admit to having done something wrong, even if you don't accept that you have. Which is why I've never appealed against anything, and never will. The arbitrators by and large don't really care too much about the evidence, they only look at how many times an editor appears in the dock before them; once that number passes some arbitrary threshold it's pretty much an automatic ban. Eric Corbett 20:35, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if I pushed you into some sort of mess. Just seemed from the discussion there that it wasn't going to result in anything useful either way and the answer ought to be either "yes, so and so can run their talk page how they see fit" or "no, topic bans are immutable." Neither answer ought to require an admission of guilt ("ought to" always being a loaded phrase in both cases, unfortunately). Seemed like the path of least bikeshedding, as it were. Protonk (talk) 20:41, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

My experience with requests for clarification has not been an encouraging one, they're inclined to reopen old wounds. Eric Corbett 20:48, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Curse that Walter Raleigh, he was such a stupid.... ?

As I feel you may be something of an expert on northern culture and mild profanity, I don't suppose you (or any suitably qualified talk page stalkers) could pop into Talk:The Beatles (album)#"Stupid git" and give us your expertise on whether John Lennon calls Raleigh a "stupid git" or a "stupid get". Ta! Ritchie333 15:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I've always considered them to mean exactly the same think, a faux distinction similar to that between feck and fuck. So I can't really get too excited about the discussion on that talk page, as I don't think it matters a damn. Eric Corbett 16:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I have often heard people use "get" rather than "git". Parrot of Doom 21:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

If the moral ambitiousness proceeds, we'll end up with "g*t". - Sitush (talk) 00:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

The god-king has spoken

Jimbo Wales has once again suggested that anyone who doesn't agree with him, and specifically referring to me, ought to find another hobby. My view is a little different from his, but do feel free to join in on Jimbo's talk page. Not that it'll make any difference of course. Eric Corbett 23:14, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't until quite late on Monday that I realised you had taken the day off as per your earlier musings. I'll be joining you next Monday and fully expect that in due course it will become more days off than on. I might also encourage people who've never edited to have a go, in the sure knowledge that it will go dreadfully wrong, dreadfully quickly as it has done with Gardner's garbage systemic bias campaign that encouraged thousands of semi-literate, clueless pov-pushers and copyright-violators to descend on the project in the space of a few weeks. We're still cleaning up that mess. - Sitush (talk) 00:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

That's good, the more the merrier. Eric Corbett 09:38, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I didn't edit for four days in a row, - did anyone notice? I don't think so ;) Yesterday I remembered a milestone in my personal history here, - I mentioned strike a year ago. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:00, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

We need to act in concert though, that's the key. Eric Corbett 09:38, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Have you considered that you might be giving Jimbo 1/7 of what he wants?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:26, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

More than 1/7 surely? Eric Corbett 10:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Women

Can't live with em... J.k. I do live with one. Two if the cat counts. Am I correct in assuming AA measures based upon non existent data is your issue with that project? I just had to remember how I stumbled into this project area. I think it was a RSN post and I opined and then followed the editors to see how the suggestions were applied. I stayed because I was really disappointed to see that someone even suggested that women editors could be granted immunity to being reverted. Personally I doubt much will ever happen if that project continues in this vein, because whacky ideas will put a stink on everything they touch. Have you seen any reasonable proposals born from that group?Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, my fundamental objection is to all these conclusions being drawn without a scrap of supporting evidence. The project will of course come to nothing though. Eric Corbett 09:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, the last time Carole presented something, Gaigan pretty much shot it down. At least I got some enjoyment of fixing up Caroline Criado-Perez out of that. There probably is evidence of bias out there, but it will take a social scientist to do the job correctly. Some people that lead quite difficult lives, through no fault of their own, see Misplaced Pages as a means to achieve the equal footing in life they have long been denied. Sorry, but Utopia doesn't exist even online.Two kinds of pork (talk) 10:03, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I've had almost-constantly bad experiences of CMDC, not merely in this latest campaign. Pretty much every time she presents something, it can be shot down. Usually because she doesn't back it up but also because much of it is plain illogical. I'm not sure if the lack of logic is down to how she expresses things - semantics etc - or whether it is a genuine inability to comprehend the nature of logic. Either way, her reliance on gossip, anecdote, generalisation (and misrepresentation on the odd occasion a source is mentioned), coupled with her vociferousness, is not doing her cause any favours. As things stand in the GG debate, she is effectively mostly repeating the same stuff with the same links and adding fairly inane personal commentary in a point-y, soapboxing way. Often in her edit summaries also.

Some of her fellow travellers should have a quiet word with her to explain that less is sometimes more. She might prove her point better and advance things more usefully if she actually contributed more to the articles etc that she claims are skewed by the gap or worked with specific female contributors who are having some difficulties, such as the one that I and Carole Henson are currently attempting to mentor. But I'm afraid that she seems only ever to be interested in fomenting controversy here - gender gap, guns, Palestine etc. Basically, similar to a 1960s heart-on-the-sleeve, rent-a-mob social activist. One day, she'll overstep the mark, probably with her forum shopping, and find that her usual excuse of naivety will not wash. One thing she is not is naive - that's just for show and convenience.

Anyway, I'll slink back to my content creation now. I know that nowadays it doesn't really matter when compared to dealing with the gender gap but, hey, I keep finding myself adding links to feminism in the most unusual places, eg: recently at St John's Church, Manchester. - Sitush (talk) 11:31, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I like the women not being reverted idea. That should definitely be put in place. Don't revert this or I will report you. (I'll get my personalised no-revert card issued once the lab confirms my sex based on the blood sample they took when I reported for inspection, then it is just a case of scanning my biometric data and matching it to the database record on every save to confirm that it was made by a woman and your male hegemony will be doomed! ) Belle (talk) 10:11, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh no you didn't! Sex vs gender is a big part of this. I saw some off wiki complaints about the lead of Woman, and after just reading it just now, some of those complaints have merit. But that's not a battle I care to enjoin.Two kinds of pork (talk) 10:24, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

And of course automatic promotion of every female editor to admin will be a boost in your struggle against the evil forces of male chauvinism. I just don't recognise the world that's being painted, and I really wish someone would explain to me in what ways WP's content would be significantly different even if there was a 50/50 gender split. Eric Corbett 10:20, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

This women would not want to be an admin, even without the criminal status which I will keep because I - as you, Eric - will not appeal, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Good for you. Dignity is much more important that a criminal record here. Eric Corbett 13:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)